Ken Levine recently posted on his Twitter this GTTV video segment, "Game Theory: BioShock", which discusses the theoretical possibility of conceiving a real Rapture under the sea, including other real buildings in the sea, the specific areas mentioned in it's foundation, and how simple and complex it would be for the science of it's architecture, energy, and oxygen intake. Check it out in the link below:
http://www.gametrailers.com/user-mov...ioshock/360024
Interesting video, although the guy doing it tried way too hard to be funny at times.
felonious said:Interesting video, although the guy doing it tried way too hard to be funny at times.
Yep. Way too many visual puns, like overusing "which" and "but" . At least some appropriate images make it easy to conceptualize the science portions.
What are we waiting for?! Lets build it!
To put it simply, the guy in the video is a complete tool.
Alot of incorrect 'facts' the 'shallow' location isnt 650 feet deep in that 'vicinity' its 1000-2000+ (assuming the coordinates are anything close). The supposition is Rapture is on the side of an old volcano so can be above the much lower seafloor.
Sphere of glass -- sorry most of raptures windows are flat and are very big and flat (one of the window panes in neptunes bounty had the equivalent force of the weight of 3 full saturn 5 rockets on it and theres a whole bunch of them there)....
Mr Science also never heard of growing things under artificial light.(or that those lights might not be working much any more in the state Rapture is in) or that there are alot more trees than you see in Arcadia... (and also doesnt seem to understand the basics of CO2 scrubbers)
Not sure what floating communities has to do with raptures problems (making them 'self sufficient' will be funny to see these 'credit card' engineers try to make it work -- its more likely just a big tax dodge).
Pseudo -science is so wonderful... but then it sounds smart to people even more ignorant than this clown is...
watchman said:Alot of incorrect 'facts' the 'shallow' location isnt 650 feet deep in that 'vicinity' its 1000-2000+ (assuming the coordinates are anything close). The supposition is Rapture is on the side of an old volcano so can be above the much lower seafloor.
Sphere of glass -- sorry most of raptures windows are flat and are very big and flat (one of the window panes in neptunes bounty had the equivalent force of the weight of 3 full saturn 5 rockets on it and theres a whole bunch of them there)....
Mr Science also never heard of growing things under artificial light.(or that those lights might not be working much any more in the state Rapture is in) or that there are alot more trees than you see in Arcadia... (and also doesnt seem to understand the basics of CO2 scrubbers)
Not sure what floating communities has to do with raptures problems (making them 'self sufficient' will be funny to see these 'credit card' engineers try to make it work -- its more likely just a big tax dodge).
Pseudo -science is so wonderful... but then it sounds smart to people even more ignorant than this clown is...
Then again, its just as ignorant to limit one's theories as just "pseudo science". Sure this guy is some clownish host from GTTV, and theories are going to be theoretical to what can and cannot happen, but with something like Rapture as a inspiration to a lot of BioShock fans ( especially here), he was at least branching on what was plausible, and his info was only as far as to the game's timeframe and what was seen and mentioned in the game. For one, he has mentioned that some of Rapture's ideas are only half right, such as architecture and the trees as oxygen as "possible, but not too smart".
The seafloor of Rapture is somewhat questionable, because what conditions it was in the 1940's wouldn't be the same now, and how further stretched the buildings are in the area. Don't know where you got that it was under a specific old volcano, but Hephaestus was built around a series of geothermal vents and volcanoes that its harmonic cores harness, which as this guy pointed out, are plenty in that Icelandic region. Also, as both the Austen Bathysphere Map and Hephaestus shows, most of Rapture's buildings are built somewhat far from that area.
Besides Batyspheres, the buildings may not be completely as round as spheres, but that doesn't mean there are arched windows above the ceilings and in the tunnels, and some areas do have some rounded off windows to corner off the walls. But obviously, Rapture is far from perfect, and even those like Atlas, Frank Fontaine, and Bill McDonagh refer to the problems to its structure needing maintenance on a regular basis. The host did mention that the stone statues and sharp-flat Art Deco architecture wouldn't last long from pressure, (hence "It's possible, but not too smart"). Its possible to fix these minor setbacks with a better sense of geometry to survive, but the host's theory was more about making Rapture as it was both in that era and the game's representation. As far as Rapture being built in that era as it was represented in the game, an Atlas/Ryan civil war would be the least of its problems, and the city could be destroyed quicker than by the events of BioShock 2.
He was also about to mention an artificial light solution to the trees (which some are seen there), but when an area like the cemetery has a large window to rely on natural sunlight, it lead to his speculation of Arcadia needing to be built taller than it needs to be as one of Rapture's main source of oxygen. I do admit, the Co2 scrubber and electrolysis ideas could have been easily explained by the use of those pumps and bellows around Rapture's walls, but their specific functions have never been mentioned in the game at all, and they can be only speculated for any solution (temperature, pressure, filters, etc). The state of Arcadia and its power supply could suffice by the events of the first game, but if they're destroyed by war or pressure damage, like what happened in BioShock 2, relying on them as the main oxygen is pretty useless by then, and would have to result for whatever alternate oxygen creating source to fill the city, even for Oxy Fill stations.
As for the floating Communities, this video was just comparing on what info there is on some places creating underwater structures. Also, at the time, the Sea Steading Institute was announced to sell off these city-like island rigs, which they may not be fully underwater, but they are sold to be as independent nations, much like Rapture. There may not be problems in those yet, but down the line, you can't expect citizens to be this compliant for a while, even if they are the most like-minded.
Like its been mentioned, Its a theory about what was inspired in the game. That's really up to those who want to experiment or test these theories out, even the structural one, and if they don't work, then there's going to be another theory to test it out. No theory is always going to be 100% perfect, but it always aspires for those to test than just deny it.
"Don't know where you got that it was under a specific old volcano, but Hephaestus was built around a series of geothermal vents and volcanoes that its harmonic cores harness" ---
I said on an ancient undersea volcano - one for the geothemal stuff and two to raise the base depth something alot closer than 2000 foot depth of most of the seafloor in that area.
"and the trees as oxygen as "possible, but not too smart"." --- if you could accelerate their metabolism as was mentioned in BS1 'frankentrees" using ADAM base genetic changes they would make efficient Oxygen converters (and produce useful byproducts as well). Mr Science talked of CO2 Scrubbing but those work using a consumable compound that has to be continually produced and renewed (which would largely stop when Rapture fell apart).
"most of Rapture's buildings are built somewhat far from that area." but if you look out the windows AT Hesphaestus you see buildings (besides the Hesphaestus complex) in the immediate vicinity.
"but that doesn't mean there are arched windows above the ceilings and in the tunnels, and some areas do have some rounded off windows to corner off the walls" . Which would work better physically/structurally but the problem windows ARE still the big flat ones. In engineering it is what WONT work, not what does that kills the project.
"The host did mention that the stone statues and sharp-flat Art Deco architecture wouldn't last long from pressure" The pressure is irrelevant as metal and stone dont 'crush' (they dont have air chambers inside). They are more likely to be effected by slow corrosion and would have been made of something better than painted steel like the Titanic. Same for ocean currents which OI would assume were already compensated for.
"but if they're destroyed by war or pressure damage, like what happened in BioShock 2, relying on them as" - its all dependant on the power being kept running for air (has to circulate even when renewed) and for temperature (else the place would have the temperature of the seawater outside), and secondarily for lights and any machinery that works (fun game if you had to pry every door open). As for general damage, with only a remaining tenth of the planned population (and the original installation having a typical safety margin of 300%) you could have most of the systems wrecked and still support the people we saw in the games (and likely with someone under Ryan or Lamb still at work eeping some of the system running).
"No theory is always going to be 100% perfect" -- when you start building things you better have a better grasp than just theory and the engineering had BETTER be close to 100% as things fall apart very fast and underwater or out in the ocean where one wrong step and you drown . Anything less is just a disastrous deathtrap that fools might build and bigger fools risk their lives to live in.
watchman said:"Don't know where you got that it was under a specific old volcano, but Hephaestus was built around a series of geothermal vents and volcanoes that its harmonic cores harness" ---
I said on an ancient undersea volcano - one for the geothemal stuff and two to raise the base depth something alot closer than 2000 foot depth of most of the seafloor in that area.
"and the trees as oxygen as "possible, but not too smart"." --- if you could accelerate their metabolism as was mentioned in BS1 'frankentrees" using ADAM base genetic changes they would make efficient Oxygen converters (and produce useful byproducts as well). Mr Science talked of CO2 Scrubbing but those work using a consumable compound that has to be continually produced and renewed (which would largely stop when Rapture fell apart).
"most of Rapture's buildings are built somewhat far from that area." but if you look out the windows AT Hesphaestus you see buildings (besides the Hesphaestus complex) in the immediate vicinity.
"but that doesn't mean there are arched windows above the ceilings and in the tunnels, and some areas do have some rounded off windows to corner off the walls" . Which would work better physically/structurally but the problem windows ARE still the big flat ones. In engineering it is what WONT work, not what does that kills the project.
"The host did mention that the stone statues and sharp-flat Art Deco architecture wouldn't last long from pressure" The pressure is irrelevant as metal and stone dont 'crush' (they dont have air chambers inside). They are more likely to be effected by slow corrosion and would have been made of something better than painted steel like the Titanic. Same for ocean currents which OI would assume were already compensated for.
"but if they're destroyed by war or pressure damage, like what happened in BioShock 2, relying on them as" - its all dependant on the power being kept running for air (has to circulate even when renewed) and for temperature (else the place would have the temperature of the seawater outside), and secondarily for lights and any machinery that works (fun game if you had to pry every door open). As for general damage, with only a remaining tenth of the planned population (and the original installation having a typical safety margin of 300%) you could have most of the systems wrecked and still support the people we saw in the games (and likely with someone under Ryan or Lamb still at work eeping some of the system running).
"No theory is always going to be 100% perfect" -- when you start building things you better have a better grasp than just theory and the engineering had BETTER be close to 100% as things fall apart very fast and underwater or out in the ocean where one wrong step and you drown . Anything less is just a disastrous deathtrap that fools might build and bigger fools risk their lives to live in.
Now you're just repeating most of what I said, only reinstating it as a patronizing and out-of -context rebuttle. Ironically, when it comes to the parts about Rapture not surviving by BioShock 2, you seem very defensive about it.
"Now you're just repeating most of what I said, only reinstating it as a patronizing and out-of -context rebuttle. Ironically, when it comes to the parts about Rapture not surviving by BioShock 2, you seem very defensive about it. "
No Im explaining why what I said before was correct.
Rapture 'surviving' by BS2 time was self evident in what we played thru was obviously not a "dark cold water-filled tomb". As for it lasting 8 more years past BS1 times, as long as a few critical systems continuing to function/were maintained (like the power) the city could function. Rapture would have been overengineered (like to 600% instead of the more common 300%) to prevent catastrophic failures and to make it last as long as Ryan planned - many many decades. The behavior of the Splicers (and non-splicers) we happen to see was atypical with whoever was in control (Lamb in that section) having them at other times continue all the maintenance and food production and other activities required to keep people alive.
Well, you took the BioShock 2 thing too literal. I only meant as how destroyed the buildings looked before going to the Atlantic Express (must be from all that flat glass you mentined). It's not that you're completely wrong, I mean, I do mean the same things you said to how workably sound the construction (aka testing the theory) needs to be to make sure these "fools" don't drown themselves if they went a few feet off from destination. At the same time, you bounce back from criticizing what I said because you took what I said out of context to say an expanded version of what I mentioned, to somehow going into BioShock 2, which this topic was more about if a real structure could be possibly made with real world materials mentioned in the game (geothermal power, trees, etc), not just literally the storyline, characters, and elaborated genetic science that happens in the games. Like I said, you have some good theories of how a structure could be sustainable and some engineering, but that's pretty much it from the BS2-related stuff.Originally Posted by watchman
With that, all I just want to agree on is if an underwater city can possibly happen in it's suggested era in real life (even if it obviously doesn't look exactly like Rapture)?
Haha, I love Game Theory! Mat Pat's a pretty cool guy.
Would it be a 'city' or a resort dependant on outside resources (and only populated by the idle rich who can afford to have those resources brought to them at great expense) ????
Shallow you can have windows like Rapture (and something to look at -- as long as you are in a tropical (sheltered) area otherwise its pretty boring) If much deeper then no windows and you are inside a building effectively (might as well be up on a mountain or inside one) and same just be in tunnels in bedrock under the sea.
And similar cabin fever (as in Rapture) would break out unless the place is made huge for the population (again now only multi-multi millionaires can afford it (or its an expensive tourist trap). You would probably find alot of people in the shallow 'city' going up to the surface constantly just to see the sky. (And it NOT being self sufficient they would always have to deal with that 'surface' world or grow bored with the limitations of such a place.
For it to be a real 'city' it would have to be so big with so many 'toilet scrubbers' needed to keep it running (not to mention ALL the things that people use -- even just to man the stores for stuff made elsewhere). Self Sufficient (sortof) Rapture was supposed to be 20000 people (maybe twice that) which just wouldnt happen in our real world (bill gates and his cronies couldnt begin to pay for something like that)
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