Ant Farm thought

[Steelsky]

Something I have been thinking about the Ant Farm thing.

What is the big conceptual difference in looking at a 2 dimensional grid looking at rooms from above and looking at a 2 dimensional grid looking at rooms side on?

I'll grant that the whole business of rooms boosting the effect of the rooms next door if they're of the right type will be a change but actual people walking about is just eye candy.

If they want to call is an Ant Farm shouldn't it be more of a cube structure where you have multiple layers of rooms?

/Yks

[b15h09]

Ideally, I would have liked a 3d grid to build on (provided base defense maps reflected my build layout). I don't find anything innovative about the ant farm. It's just different for the sake of being different. Looks kinda neat, but has no tactical carryover value, which was something I admired about the original.

[Inkidu]

It is that, but OK.

If you watch the Deep Dive 1 trailer again Mr. O'Toole, art director, says that they were having trouble wit the base as a level, presumably because of the 3D but that's just speculation on my part. His team came to him and said that they kept calling it an ant farm so why not make it like one.

Personally, it's a UI, I like it, it's slick, it's integrated, and it keeps people from spamming boosting structures on all three sides of a facility if what I'm seeing is correct.

[b15h09]

Personally, it's a UI, I like it, it's slick, it's integrated, and it keeps people from spamming boosting structures on all three sides of a facility if what I'm seeing is correct.

How does it do that?

[Gen_Pho]

I think it is interesting that they make the base the main geoscape view as opposed to the geoscape which is just a room in the base. I am curious to see how that works out.

[Inkidu]

How does it do that?

I suppose you could still do it. I had to go back and rethink it, but if it was 3D based (like a cube) it would be twice as worse.

[b15h09]

Ah, you mean having 6 adjacent areas to boost with if it were a cube, instead of 4. I see your point, but I'd rather base layout had tactical implications over strategic implications, though having both would have been a welcome step forward. If both were in there, it would kinda self balance, as you'd have to make a choice between having a defensible position, or having high production/research.

[Inkidu]

Ah, you mean having 6 adjacent areas to boost with if it were a cube, instead of 4. I see your point, but I'd rather base layout had tactical implications over strategic implications, though having both would have been a welcome step forward. If both were in there, it would kinda self balance, as you'd have to make a choice between having a defensible position, or having high production/research.

Plus six structures around one structure would be a nightmare to navigate.

[b15h09]

nah, just have a blow apart map on the top of the screen that lets you select the level and focus room that you want to view, with a couple of toggles to show/hide layers. Maybe a list of built structures that you can use to filter the structure type you want to glow. Just present it cleanly, and it should be easy enough.

[Being]

Base building expansion: DF-COM.

---
Urist McScientist withdraws from society...
Urist McScientist claims the alien containment!
---
You have struck Raw Elerium! Praise the miners!
You have discovered an eerie cavern!

[Gazz]

What is the big conceptual difference in looking at a 2 dimensional grid looking at rooms from above and looking at a 2 dimensional grid looking at rooms side on?

None.

It's a graphical difference.
If you can show everything from a side view you get prettier, more natural pictures.
We do normally look at things from the side. It looks... right.

A top down view is always more abstract. An obvious "representation" of the real thing.

Geometrically there is no difference whatsoever but from an immersion point of view, I think the ant farm wins.

[NickL2005]

I actually love the new concept. I mean the idea with X-COM is they have to go underground and build a base and with this you view it as a base being built down. I don't see how anyone could say they loved the old X-COM base. What? Some cubes with hardly any detail. People need to be acceptable to some changes. The amount of effort they've put into this base allowing your characters to interact with one another and allowing the people to see everything going on throughout the base without switching camera angles.... they did a great job!

[b15h09]

I actually love the new concept. I mean the idea with X-COM is they have to go underground and build a base and with this you view it as a base being built down. I don't see how anyone could say they loved the old X-COM base. What? Some cubes with hardly any detail. People need to be acceptable to some changes. The amount of effort they've put into this base allowing your characters to interact with one another and allowing the people to see everything going on throughout the base without switching camera angles.... they did a great job!

Seems what they did was throw any tactical value the originals base had out the window, and added Sims. I did love the old X-COM base, because it would be represented isometrically during a defense. Sure, the actual build view was very primitive, but so was every other graphical aspect of the 18 year old game. Change can be good, but not so much when it's delivered by a meat axe.

[Inkidu]

Seems what they did was throw any tactical value the originals base had out the window, and added Sims. I did love the old X-COM base, because it would be represented isometrically during a defense. Sure, the actual build view was very primitive, but so was every other graphical aspect of the 18 year old game. Change can be good, but not so much when it's delivered by a meat axe.

That doesn't mean you won't get an isometric view of this new base in defense. It would just be more up and down.

Plus it takes all the tactical out of it when you realize that most aliens come from the lift and the hangars. So unless you just want the challenge it's hangers up to everything else down south.

[Gen_Pho]

Seems what they did was throw any tactical value the originals base had out the window, and added Sims. I did love the old X-COM base, because it would be represented isometrically during a defense. Sure, the actual build view was very primitive, but so was every other graphical aspect of the 18 year old game. Change can be good, but not so much when it's delivered by a meat axe.

Yeah I think this is blowing the issue out of proportion. The tactical value of the base was a very minimal part of the game. Your original base was built all wrong for tactical defense anyways so it could be argued that they didn't intend people to think that much about base defense when building the base.

Considering how much we know about base defense in the upcoming game it really cant be said that they have brought change with a meat axe. It may be true, but you are kidding yourself by making that assertion about this aspect of the game right now.

[b15h09]

That doesn't mean you won't get an isometric view of this new base in defense. It would just be more up and down.

Plus it takes all the tactical out of it when you realize that most aliens come from the lift and the hangars. So unless you just want the challenge it's hangers up to everything else down south.

lol, there's lots of places to improve and innovate on the original. Alien bunker breach pod, maybe? Severely damages the building, and maybe throws a cyberdisk or two deep into your base? Maybe they'll seek alien containment, and if you can't head them off, all your captives will be coming from behind, armed by the cyberdisk?

[b-0]

Are base invasions going to be in the new xcom? I don't get how an antfarm base would work in a base invasion scenario. Is the antfarm an excuse to not have base invasions?

[b15h09]

Are base invasions going to be in the new xcom? I don't get how an antfarm base would work in a base invasion scenario. Is the antfarm an excuse to not have base invasions?

There are base defenses I believe, but because of the engine they use, maps have to be prerendered, which means defenses will likely take place above the base on a land map, or they will take place in the pre-positioned portions of your base.

Considering how much we know about base defense in the upcoming game it really cant be said that they have brought change with a meat axe. It may be true, but you are kidding yourself by making that assertion about this aspect of the game right now.

Rational statement, but my doubts have been stacking up for awhile about a lot of aspects, and I'm pretty well dry on benefits to give.

[Gen_Pho]

Rational statement, but my doubts have been stacking up for awhile about a lot of aspects, and I'm pretty well dry on benefits to give.

Fair enough. I am finding myself also being less than thrilled about some decisions in isolation. I am hoping that when taken as a whole the net effect of these decisions do not take away too much from the game.

This base discussion seems to be focusing around a small tactical aspect to what was really the UI of the strategical layer of the game. To me the UI in this new game seems to be coming around quite nicely.

[tazong]

The more i think about base attacks and in perticular the different variants and postions of rooms - basically no 2 bases will ever be the same wether down do certain rooms being in different places or levels.
I can only think of one logical way they can do base attacks - as has been stated a attack may begin above ground in a forified area you will have to defend - but the one area all bases seem to remain the same is - every base starts off with a big hanger that houses the interceptors and the skyranger.
So there for i am guessing the alien attack will begin above ground and there mission is to wipe out the hanger in the base that is below the ground.
To be honest if xcom lost the ability to intercept ufos and counter act terror attacks - the game is pretty much over for them anyway.
I think thats how they may tackle base attacks.
Because the base always starts off with a hanger - this can basically be made in to a huge 3d area and will look the same for everyone - no matter the variations in bases.

[heniv]

I think the innovation Greg is referring to, is that this type of base hasn't been done in this way before. And I totally agree with what they are trying to achieve with it. But so far I'm not personally a fan of the side view.

From a gameplay view, side vs top is only aesthetic. And a 3D-grid would just add complication with little gain.

Having the base underground limits the design I think. The dream would be the same concept in isometric view... like SimCity or Apocalypse city layer. But that is an ENORMOUS effort for a small part of the game.
I love this pixelart image by Sohei:
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs20/f/20..._by_iSohei.png

[Gen_Pho]

I think the innovation Greg is referring to, is that this type of base hasn't been done in this way before. And I totally agree with what they are trying to achieve with it. But so far I'm not personally a fan of the side view.

From a gameplay view, side vs top is only aesthetic. And a 3D-grid would just add complication with little gain.

Having the base underground limits the design I think. The dream would be the same concept in isometric view... like SimCity or Apocalypse city layer. But that is an ENORMOUS effort for a small part of the game.
I love this pixelart image by Sohei:
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs20/f/20..._by_iSohei.png

Hah, you just like the shower scene

[heniv]

Hah, you just like the shower scene

Of course =P. Naturally that would be a vital part of the living quarters.

But on a more serious note, I think that same type of interaction and "bustling with activity" base can be made on an isometric layer.

[DazzD]

I am one of the rare ones that really likes the new lay out of the ant farm style. Yes, it takes away the tactical layer of the base which is a downer but to me it evens out. The other thing is we don't know how base defense works yet. There might be a surface map or an entrance map that we need to take care of to put that back in the game, who knows! Anyway I am a fan of the new base, it has my thumbs up. If they can add something to to put the tactical layer back in then it's both thumbs up

[Wuzzell]

I've got to say i'm interested in how they will proceed with base defenses. The smaller squad size and side view do leave their doubts with me to how big they will be.
My ideal would be an updated apoc base style. Not all bases were the same size forcing you into changing the structure and defences of said bases.

[Steelsky]

I like the look of the new base setup very much, it's a natural evolution of the base with the capabilities we have now hardware wise.

I just don't see the huge innovation in it.

With regards to defence I think the top layer of the base is predefined and where the defence will happen, possibly with an outside and an inside with the outside changing looks based on location in the world and or time of year.

/Yks

[Wrench]

I am one of the rare ones that really likes the new lay out of the ant farm style. Yes, it takes away the tactical layer of the base which is a downer but to me it evens out. The other thing is we don't know how base defense works yet. There might be a surface map or an entrance map that we need to take care of to put that back in the game, who knows! Anyway I am a fan of the new base, it has my thumbs up. If they can add something to to put the tactical layer back in then it's both thumbs up

I completely agree with this... Im a fan of this new view.. being able to pan in and out of areas, check out your scientists working on the new alien containment specimen, speak to the foreman of the new weapon on the production line, then pan out and check out the Geoscape or the grunts at rest in the mess...
Yes, i understand peoples worry that this might have been changed at the cost of the tactical base defence factors, but we've not seen evern a peak at what base defence will involve..
So for now, im thumbs up on the Ant Farm...

[Inkidu]

I completely agree with this... Im a fan of this new view.. being able to pan in and out of areas, check out your scientists working on the new alien containment specimen, speak to the foreman of the new weapon on the production line, then pan out and check out the Geoscape or the grunts at rest in the mess...
Yes, i understand peoples worry that this might have been changed at the cost of the tactical base defence factors, but we've not seen evern a peak at what base defence will involve..
So for now, im thumbs up on the Ant Farm...

Actually I think the new base offers up a few other things to replace this apparent loss in tactical depth that some people are complaining about.

First it adds layout bonuses. When certain structures are close to others they provide a maximum bonus. Also, the limited space and only one main base means you have to really think about what you're going to add. You might give up the officer's academy if you decide to power through research and development. That kind of thing.

[Being]

Well, the base could have been modernised in a top down view equally. Why the devs chose a side view instead of top down view is because (I guess)
1) Watching the top of soldiers' heads isn't as much fun as watching them from the side
2) It can still be kept two dimensional in layout for ease of use as the UI element it is

However, it is still utilising a 3d engine for this so there's just a little bit they haven't implemented that would be necessary for a more horizontal base (x,y instead of x,z coordinates?): more camera controls. Considering they have this in the battlescape it wouldn't be a big issue.

If you could move the camera around in any direction you could still view your soldiers from the side and the different base layout would be just as enjoyable and could confer all the same benefits as Inkidu mentions: limited space, layout bonuses and such. I would not accept a top-down view unless I could choose to watch from an isometric angle.

But it doesn't matter one way or the other if game engine limitations would prevent you fighting in your own base in either case.
So, unless the verticality of the base is possibly going to be the only reason base defense doesn't utilise your base layout, I like the new ant farm just fine.

[ShanDaMan]

Hah, you just like the shower scene

Don't you just hate it when you just get in the shower and unexpected company arrives!