Order/autocracy are ridiculous

[Littlisk]

This makes me rage so friggin hard. Fuggin late game right? You want order/ autocracy to help your massive empire right? Wrong. Your culture is fried beyond repair with all the cities you have and other culture policies are null and void after adopting either.

Herp derp. "87 culture per turn, next policy at 234/12042"

WTF? How has this not been fixed? How fuggin long is my game suppose to last?
This needs a patch so bad its not even anywhere lulz worthy, something like: "O/A now cost less depending on number of cities due to.." lol i dunno "...totally killing any policies you've adopted ever".

These two are currently worthless and aren't being used how they were intended.

Peace, the f***, out.

notice1: The statistics above are just an example.

notice2: /end thread

notice3: /END THREAD 2.0, now with max font so you can read it all the easier!

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

This thread is now about God's and King's expansion pack. We will be presenting possible new units, buildings, abilities etc. I'll go first: Arabia should receive special founder ability called "extremists"

PROFILE
-Suicide unit, used much like a one time great person ability.
-Very fragile to range attacks, automatically explodes on death.

DAMAGE
-Deals 10 damage used on cities(base damage)
-Deals 5 damage to 3 adjacent tiles, depending on the direction its facing
-Deals 5 damage on death to melee unit

SPAWN
-Workers can create "martar" improvement tiles that attract "zealot points", once full a "Extremist" is spawned
-"Extremists" spawn on the martar improvement, if pillaged then pillagee unit receives 5 damage

/Discuss

notice1: I know they're changing the damage system from 10/10 hitpoints to 100/100 so calculate accordingly.

notice2: This thread isn't about the fail of Order/Autocracy until MadDjinn responds.

notice3: F*** YEAH 2k views and almost fifty replies later and we're still in the party van? WHOO! High-fives all around!

Shoutout1: Shout out to Vlynor, who just tossed his junior member for a sweet evar lovin' MEMBER status through this thread, you my neggaw, GRATZ BRO!

[Littlisk]

lol 60 views not one reply? I guess there's nothing to argue against my point

[Nostriano]

Or, I don't know, maybe you could invest in some more culture buildings? With a large empire, buying some isn't out of the picture either.

The system works fine. If you don't build culture buildings, you're not going to get policies very quickly.

[Littlisk]

I build culture buildings fine.

The problem is that my number of cities far out paces my number of culture buildings. This doubled with the fact that just about any culture help I get from other policies gets flushed down the toilet.

Its fuggin ridiculous. These are late game policies yet they're in no hurry to help end the game in any way, far from it.

[Magic_Hotdog]

Culture is balanced as is, and doesn't need to be "fixed." Most people seem to be able to fill out Order or Autocracy just fine, myself included.

If you want to be able to fill out either of these trees before the game ends, you need to think ahead. Puppet your conquered cities. If you plan on spamming cities or annexing everything, you will want Representation first. You can hold back your culture early on and rush techs to reach the era you want before plopping down culture buildings. I'm sure your "massive empire" can afford to spare some cash to buy out some cultural city-states. In the industrial era, cultural allies give 26 per turn.... that's nearly a third of your total output. Also, wonders.

That aside, you have the wrong idea about the last two policy trees. They're not a I WIN button, they're there to help you manage your empire - just like the early policies. Just because you find yourself unable to use it the way you want doesn't meant it's not being used "as intended." If you really want to play a game centered around these policies, start one in the industrial era or later.

Oh yeah:

87 culture per turn, next policy at 234/12042
Massive empire

You're doing it wrong.

[Gooner]

There is a time in the game where culture can fall well behind the cost of acquiring policies and it may stay like that until you start building broadcast towers (+33%). You can also try building the Sistine Chapel (+25%) to boost your culture.

However, it seems that you're building few culture buildings if you're only generating 87 culture per turn from a large empire and you're in the industrial era. When your empire expands, you need more happiness buildings and more culture buildings to keep up with the happiness/culture requirements. With a small empire, you can get by without these if you're going to a science/diplomacy victory.

[Kukulcán]

87 culture per turn? I am sorry but you don't build culture buildings.

[Littlisk]

The statistics I put were just an example,

Recently I was playing for a culture victory when the sad fail of game design dawned on me. Game stats:

Civ: Gandhi
Pace: Standard
Size: Small
Map: Archipelago
Difficulty: Diety
OCC

I got both the Oracle and Sydney Opera house, finished piety first, and was pumping out a little more than 400 culture by the time I won(CS included). OH WAIT but what turn exactly? About 2014 a.k.a about turn 400.

At that point new policies were costing upwards of 5000 culture. Keep in mind this was ONE CITY, and this is even after getting 10% off with piety which was stacked with the 10% off from that Statue of Geesuz from Rio.

This was a city STACKED with world wonders. Order/Autocracy are suppose to be for world domination wins yet ironically being a big world domination civ makes getting these two unviable. They are currently worthless and come too late in the game to be any help in speeding up the world domination process.

Its a complete design fail, they're not serving their purpose and are completely worthless and unviable in any strategy.

[Magic_Hotdog]

It's really just a failure on your part to be good at the game. It's that simple.

Here, take a look at how a competent player does OCC culture.

Stop blaming the game for why you suck.

[Littlisk]

Okay, I don't know how this went from discussing a game flaw to insulting each other but I'm going to try not to derail this thread like you.

As for your video there's two errors:

1) First off, he found El Dorado by turn 4, lol fluke game much? I must really suck when I can't get a free worker by turn 5...

He even considered throwing away that game. If being competent means you always "Skill Dorado" like he does I guess no ones been playing competently then?

2) Korea = Korea, India = India

Order/Autocracy still remain worthless.

[Magic_Hotdog]

Whether he was able to get a worker a few turns earlier or not is irrelevant. The point is that he won the game a full 100+ turns before you managed to. And you're right, India can get a culture win even faster than Korea. If you consider yourself competent enough to play on Deity but can't get a culture win before turn 350, then you're doing something wrong. The rate of cultural growth is quite balanced as is. You're demanding a gameplay change based on the fact that you don't know what you're doing, but where does that leave players who do? Here's an idea: the difficulties below Prince have reduced policy costs. Play those, and be happy.

I want to apologize about belittling your skill of gameplay, but it's readily apparent to everyone reading this thread that you're not good at the culture game. To make Autocracy or Order more accessible would make gameplay very, very broken for those who are proficient at it. So really, just... play more, and refine your strategy.

[Littlisk]

Order/Autocracy are for massive empires thus they should be viable for massive empires, theres nothing on the player's part that can be "refined" for this game flaw. They're currently unviable in any type of victory, you can know what victory you want from turn 1 and O/A most defiantly won't be needed. Theres just no strategy for these two. They don't help any victory in any way.

Can ANYONE tell me one instance where these two policies would be a make-or-break a game for your victories like piety or honor are? Quick answer: You can't

Any role they serve comes too late in the game and is better played by pre-industrial policies.

[Joketa]

I've used both of these policies quite effectively in the past. I've not had trouble getting through the trees in reasonable time and the benefits are quite clear. Order helps with both science and domination victories. Autocracy is very helpful with domination. Unless you completely drop the ball on Culture, as per the example in the OP, you should be able to move quite smoothly through them. Do you need them to win? No. You don't need any particular policy to win. I can win a Cultural victory without Piety. I can win a Science victory without Rationalism. They help, but they don't make or break the game.

[Artifex]

Can ANYONE tell me one instance where these two policies would be a make-or-break a game for your victories like piety or honor are? Quick answer: You can't

quick but not accurate.

By what tristed logic does +1 happy per city not help a big empire toward victory. Clicking that first point in order is often the breathing room I needed to launch my last great offensive. And it isn't even just +1 happy, the rest of the tree gives +1 everything else, actually +3 hammers which speeds all my puppets toward their self sufficiency and neutral happiness.

I could make a similar argument for autocracy, I mean freaking courthouses man! They are amazing trees, and the price of policies is just about right.
If it were any lower culture victories would be far too quick.

[VicRatlhead51]

I usually build 4-6 cities of my own then puppet everything else I can take from my enemies. Order has been awesome for me. Since I use the IPS strategy I can usually pick my victory type even cultural. I haven't gotten through the autocracy tree yet though since I like to puppet so much I would rarely benefit much from it.

[Off_pace]

I love playing huge maps and just spamming as many cities as my happiness will allow so the order/autocracy policies are great for me. The first policy in order is usually the big boost I need for the final push. At this late stage in the game you should have 400+ culture a turn, if you don’t and you want to take advantage of these policy trees you need to start over and make an early commitment to culture building…or just start buying them up!

[Shark2346]

The problem is that you miss the point of Freedom, Autocracy and Order policies. Auto/Order aren't meant for culture. If you opened the Freedom tree you get a culture boost. The point is that large sprawling empires are not exactly the best examples of great cultural centers.

Also I wonder if you have the honor tree open... Each kill gives culture and therefore you end up gaining culture through domination.

But mostly I agree with other posters.... You are probably just bad.

[Shark2346]

quick but not accurate.

By what tristed logic does +1 happy per city not help a big empire toward victory. Clicking that first point in order is often the breathing room I needed to launch my last great offensive. And it isn't even just +1 happy, the rest of the tree gives +1 everything else, actually +3 hammers which speeds all my puppets toward their self sufficiency and neutral happiness.

I could make a similar argument for autocracy, I mean freaking courthouses man! They are amazing trees, and the price of policies is just about right.
If it were any lower culture victories would be far too quick.

And I agree the courthouse bonus is insanely good and I don't know about anyone else but I love the 2x Strat resources bonus especially when I am trying to maintain a large military and don't have much oil or making factories in all my cities because of increased coal.

[Feasttalon]

Is it the game's fault that you decided to make so many cities? Any I'm just saying that you could just build more culture buildings or make friends with a cultural city state. Anyway social policies aren't very game changing, they can help you out, but not having them isn't the end of the world.

[Feasttalon]

quick but not accurate.

By what tristed logic does +1 happy per city not help a big empire toward victory. Clicking that first point in order is often the breathing room I needed to launch my last great offensive. And it isn't even just +1 happy, the rest of the tree gives +1 everything else, actually +3 hammers which speeds all my puppets toward their self sufficiency and neutral happiness.

I could make a similar argument for autocracy, I mean freaking courthouses man! They are amazing trees, and the price of policies is just about right.
If it were any lower culture victories would be far too quick.

The way that policy is designed it makes it so that it'll be almost impossible to get any more policies, hence the awesome combat bonus for finishing autocracy, as they don't expect you to finish the tree.

[Littlisk]

WOw.. that was way better than your first post, Feasttalon. Some intigrity of this forum has been restored in me.

-

What, the f***, ever you guys, if God's and King's is going to sell AT ALL they'll probably handle this problem. Otherwise Civ is just going to fail. I can't believe the total blind canon-dedication going on here.

The lack in ingnuity going on here is appalling, its all just "Nopenopenope, its fine its fine, nothing needs to be fixed"

What. the f***, ever you guys.

/end thread

[Joketa]

WOw.. that was way better than your first post, Feasttalon. Some intigrity of this forum has been restored in me.

-

What, the f***, ever you guys, if God's and King's is going to sell AT ALL they'll probably handle this problem. Otherwise Civ is just going to fail. I can't believe the total blind canon-dedication going on here.

The lack in ingnuity going on here is appalling, its all just "Nopenopenope, its fine its fine, nothing needs to be fixed"

What. the f***, ever you guys.

/end thread

You made an argument that none of us agree with. If you want to counter what we said, go ahead and do it. We all love to engage in a debate. But I think you're not looking for the answers. You're looking for people to agree with you. Case in point, you feel Feasttalon's first post is bad because it counters your opinion and his second has integrity because it concurs with you. The rest of us our blind because we can successfully get through these trees and therefore see no problem with the system. We made clear arguments for why the system works for us. It seems to me that there are as many flaws to your debate skills as there are to your game-play.

[twersx]

If you plan to go for Order, you need to be very careful about policies. Autocracy is best used for expansion so you shouldn't be too big before you take it; if you're huge, then you probably don't need the bonuses it provides.

If you're only making 87 culture per turn and need 12000+ culture for a policy, then you aren't producing enough culture for each city. 87 culture is what you'd get with 3 cities if you're for a cultural victory.

You're at the point where every single victory is much more viable than cultural.

To be honest, I've never not been able to fill my last social tree. If you're so big, bribe cultural city states for triples the culture.


Don't know why i've written this, you're going to ignore what I've said and just swear at everyone

[Littlisk]

How about you be honest at the start of your post from now on, Twersx?

This is the first post I've seen you make in here. Plus I haven't sweared directly at someone this whole time. I think I just might start dropping the f-bombs because of the frustration you're giving me right now. READ the fuggin OP, the numbers were an example, you've contributed nothing new to the thread and this thread is OVER.

I don't know whats going wrong, maybe people have their fonts set to fuggin Wingdings. Thats probably the only way this thread went down so quickly.

/end thread 2.0

[Vlynor]

Culture is meant to decrease with larger Empires that are not Culture Based. If you don't build a lot of the Cultural Wonders or you're not a culture based civilization like Siam, India, or even Greece, your culture will be greatly unbalanced, and that's how it should be, large empires aren't made for a Culture victory, having a small empire would be absolutely pointless if your culture was increased by city. The game is meant to have your way of victory planned out by turn 100-150 (if you start at the Ancient Era) and certain Civilizations are meant to win certain victories (as previously stated), but can be molded to win others.

If you want a cultural empire, build Cultural buildings and Wonders constantly, don't expand as much, and settle near Wine/Incense for the Monastery bonus. If you're a conqueror, and you take cities you don't want, instead of razing them, sell them to your Allies/Friends to make some money and then spend that money on Cultural City-States.

[VicRatlhead51]

Culture victories are just as easy with large empires, just puppet everything you take. I think even autocracy might work with a puppet empire. Just wait to annex until you get the courthouse policy.

[Littlisk]

Take your fuggin font off wingdings you scrubs. CAN you not read english? There's no point in posting in this thread anymore, GEESUZ. FUGGIN. CHRIST. Moving on people!

[Vlynor]

I'm just going to respond to piss you off now, clearly you didn't want help in the first place, you just wanted to whine, complain, and get people to agree with you so your ego could be stroked.

By the way, your commas are in the wrong place in many of your posts.

[Littlisk]

>lol stfu, junior

-

This thread is now about God's and King's expansion pack. We will be presenting possible new units, buildings, abilities etc. I'll go first: Arabia should receive special founder ability called "extremists"

PROFILE
-Suicide unit, used much like one time a great person ability.
-Very fragile to range attacks, automatically explodes on death.

DAMAGE
-Deals 10 damage used on cities(base damage)
-Deals 5 damage to 3 adjacent tiles, depending on the direction its facing
-Deals 5 damage on death to melee unit

SPAWN
-Workers can create "martar" improvements that attract "zealot points", once full a "Extremist is spawned"
-"Extremists" spawn on the martar improvement, if pillaged then pillagee unit receives 5 damage

notice1: I know they're changing the damage system from 10/10 hitpoints to 100/100 so calculate accordingly.

notice2: I'll be moving this to the OP, (this notice will not appear in the OP itself)

[PachaMinnie]

>lol stfu, junior

-

This thread is now about God's and King's expansion pack. We will be presenting possible new units, buildings, abilities etc. I'll go first: Arabia should receive special founder ability called "extremists"

PROFILE
-Suicide unit, used much like one time a great person ability.
-Very fragile to range attacks, automatically explodes on death.

DAMAGE
-Deals 10 damage used on cities(base damage)
-Deals 5 damage to 3 adjacent tiles, depending on the direction its facing
-Deals 5 damage on death to melee unit

SPAWN
-Workers can create "martar" improvements that attract "zealot points", once full a "Extremist is spawned"
-"Extremists" spawn on the martar improvement, if pillaged then pillagee unit receives 5 damage

notice1: I know they're changing the damage system from 10/10 hitpoints to 100/100 so calculate accordingly.

notice2: I'll be moving this to the OP, (this notice will not appear in the OP itself)

I'm sorry, was that entire post sarcastic? Because if it not... Extremist? REALLY? I really hope to Allah you where sarcastic.
1st: Arabia is not the only country to use suicide bombers.
2nd: Arabia doesn't use Suicide bombers *see Taliban*
3rd: Arabian Calphite, not modern day Arabia

Do you know how many reports there have been of suicide attacks in warfare? The Dutch, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Prussians, Russians, Germans, IRA, Vietnam, and yes, various groups in Arabia.

If you want to award someone for blowing themselves up, give that to the Japanese. I mean those guys killed thousands of combatants with their planes.

Plus, don't you think that's a tiny bit insulting? It's almost like putting the Gestapo in for Germany.

While we are at it why don't we give the Arabians something else, like a plane full of innocent civilians that can fly into a wonder and destroy it.

OR even better, children versions of that unit that target Israelis and others who come into their land.

Am I the only one offended by this just a tiny bit?

********ON TOPIC******

You can't really change the topic of this thread can you? No you can't. Quit whining because you are wrong, and for the love of all that is holy build culture buildings. No there is nothing wrong with social policies and if you would just put 2 and 2 together you would realize that.

[Joketa]

Am I the only one offended by this just a tiny bit?

I was offended, but then I realized this guy is probably in the 9th grade. He feels embarrassed that no one really agreed with him on the OP and now he's resorted to trolling tactics. It's better just to ignore him.

[Vlynor]

>lol stfu, junior

It seems Junior got to your head.

And the whole Extremist thing IS stereotyping. More terrorists exist in Israel, Palestine, and Pakistan than in Saudi Arabia, and as others have stated, extremists exist in all forms, European, American, Asian, Arab, and African.

[MadDjinn]

Stop feeding the troll.

[Littlisk]

If you guys don't like the thread I'm sure you're able to contribute something new.. OH WAIT its all:

"Nopenopenope, its fine its fine, nothing needs to be fixed" with you guys.

I actually want to improve the game with my feedback when something strikes me as a nail sticking out. If we can't argue that nothing IN-GAME currently needs to be changed then lets talk about what COULD turned into in-game. You don't like my example present something(if you even could) that would just as fitting into the CIV5 world.

-

@Pachaminnie

"If you want to award someone for blowing themselves up, give that to the Japanese. I mean those guys killed thousands of combatants with their planes."

LOVE IT, lets make it a unit.

@Joketa

"I was offended, but then I realized this guy is probably in the 9th grade."

Tenth actually, about to finish the year with a 3.3 GPA.

@Vlynor

"And the whole Extremist thing IS stereotyping. More terrorists exist in Israel, Palestine, and Pakistan.."

Holy crap junior, and that's not stereotyping?

@MadDjinn <- My hero right here!

OH EM GEE. I love your videos. Can you do one for the Incas PLEASE??

********OFF TOPIC******

MadDjinn, what do you think about the game design fail of Order/Autocracy? (This thread isn't on O/A until MadDjinn responds)

[PachaMinnie]

If you guys don't like the thread I'm sure you're able to contribute something new.. OH WAIT its all:

"Nopenopenope, its fine its fine, nothing needs to be fixed" with you guys.

I actually want to improve the game with my feedback when something strikes me as a nail sticking out. If we can't argue that nothing IN-GAME currently needs to be changed then lets talk about what COULD turned into in-game. You don't like my example present something(if you even could) that would just as fitting into the CIV5 world.

-

@Pachaminnie

"If you want to award someone for blowing themselves up, give that to the Japanese. I mean those guys killed thousands of combatants with their planes."

LOVE IT, lets make it a unit.
@Vlynor

"And the whole Extremist thing IS stereotyping. More terrorists exist in Israel, Palestine, and Pakistan.."

Holy crap junior, and that's not stereotyping?

No, don't make a god damned Kamikaze unit. Are you serious? Like REALLY? Take the whole idea of units blowing themselves up, and throw it out of your mind. Seriously, the Middle East conflict is a very serious topic, and it is very touchy. So is the Kamikaze, and any other suicide bombers. I mean honestly, if you want Civilization 5 to drop in sales in 5 days you put in an extremist unit for a nation that never had suicide bombers in their entire history. Yes the Arabian Calphite never had suicide bombers, at least not the ones your thinking of. If you want to blatantly insult people and push their buttons, why don't you throw out ideas for Concentration camps, the gestapo, ☺☺☺☺ing SS.

No Vylnor isn't stereotyping, Israel, Palestine, and Pakistan all have way more suicide bombers than Saudi Arabia. Look it up, Palestinian children strap bombs to their chest and try to blow up Israeli soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Su...ber-baby01.jpg Ever seen this picture? It was taken is Palestine, and it is real. And no he isn't doing it for halloween.

Do you know how many suicide bombing there where in Afganistan? 239, and before that 228, and before that 140. This isn't some childish ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ so don't treat it like it is. Do you know how many people have died due to suicide bombings just in Palestine? 804.


NO! Social Policies do NOT need tweaking! Stop! They are fine as is. They aren't a failure, if you can't reach them then you need to adjust the difficulty level down, build cultural buildings, and actually think about what you are doing instead of jumping on the internet to complain about your inability to play this game with its fairly simple gameplay.

[Vlynor]

********ON TOPIC******

MadDjinn, what do you think about the game design fail of Order/Autocracy?

I thought you changed the topic before. Weird.

Anyway, what I said wasn't stereotyping, it's the truth:

PAKISTAN: http://pakistanbodycount.org/suicide_bombing [Total killed since 2002: 3656 - 5205, Total Injured: 7864 - 13618]


PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...uicide_attacks [Total deaths: 804]

--

It's not a joke. Just because you're ignorant and find others blowing themselves up and taking others with them funny, doesn't mean we do.

[PachaMinnie]

I thought you changed the topic before. Weird.

Anyway, what I said wasn't stereotyping, it's the truth:

PAKISTAN: http://pakistanbodycount.org/suicide_bombing [Total killed since 2002: 3656 - 5205, Total Injured: 7864 - 13618]


PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...uicide_attacks [Total deaths: 804]

--

It's not a joke. Just because you're ignorant and find others blowing themselves up and taking others with them funny, doesn't mean we do.

Amen friend. I know many people who have been to the Middle East/Will be/Never going to come back. Very touchy topic for me.



DON'T FIX THE SOCIAL POLICIES THEY ARE FINE!

[Trashcat]

lol 60 views not one reply? I guess there's nothing to argue against my point

I just started playing on King. My first game I played as Siam, focussing on Culture. Won easily. My second game I played as Japan -- my first attempt at a domination victory. Won by 1940 with 4 culture trees completed. Tradition, Honor, Rationalism and Autocracy. I had nabbed up and puppetted a large number of civ cities in the process. Was rolling in the money and had no issue with culture. Lead by a healthy margin in Science. Happiness was quite low due to my aggressive capturing and puppetting cities.

In short, there's no issue with culture. Had I snagged Peity, I probably could have gotten the culture victory in short order.

[Littlisk]

Oh my GOD, its junior's first post! Someone get the camera to remember this moment! Aww... some day it'll learn to turn its font off wingdings! D'awwwwwwww

[Vlynor]

Oh my GOD, its junior's first post! Someone get the camera to remember this moment! Aww... some day it'll learn to turn its font off wingdings! D'awwwwwwww

Are you sure you're in tenth grade? You have a 3.3 GPA, but the personality of a peanut.