Yes, I'd like to have the Atheism option in the game.
No. Atheism should not be an option for the game.
I always encourage the benevolent philosophies. The bible has some great quotes. But you gotta admit as religions go the western ones tend to be bipolar.
Put your children to death if they curse at their parents? If society followed that gem who here would be alive right now?
One quote in hundreds I could have brought up. Yahweh is quite the god of war.
We should all focus on the good and ignore the bad, in all aspects of our life. Religious or not.
Well there are something like over 40,000 denominations of Christianity, each with their own set of traditions/laws/ideas, so they cannot possibly all be following the Bible as a whole. That's why different Christian groups vary so much, and some are extreme this way while others are extreme that way, and some fall kinda neutral somewhere in the middle.
Stating solely that Yahweh is a war God really puts a limited and misleading view on his personalty as expressed in the Bible. Also if you look at the whole story you can really understand that there's more to it than what we might initially think, such as the plagues of Egypt...One might thing about how cruel those plagues were, but if you read through the whole story you can see that Yahweh was actually way more patient than the average human when dealing with the stubborn Pharaoh at the time.
Also if we entirely ignore bad things than we could be missing important lessons..."Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana.
New World Translation?Originally Posted by Hawk
That's correct, however feel free to post what that scripture says in any translation of the Bible. Personally I prefer to use a translation where they have not removed God's name.
That is the translation I use..I too prefer to use a translation where they have not removed God's personal name...
All this talk of the bible, people you must expand to other Religious books and teachings.
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its professor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies."
"A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity."
"Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people."
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith."
"It is better to sit alone than in company with the bad; and it is, better still to sit with the good than alone. It is better to speak to a seeker of knowledge than to remain silent; but silence is better than idle words."
"Conduct yourself in this world, as if you are here to stay forever; prepare for eternity as if you have to die tomorrow.",
No disrespect to other books, but the Bible teaches to seek knowledge, be charitable, honest, kind, avoid bad association, and to conduct ourselves.
Doesn't almost ever single Religious book teach that? I may be wrong, but the Qur'an teaches all of that. Just look at the above, quotes from the Prophet Muhammad.
Well if that's true of all religious books that's very commendable. It's just that you said we must expand to other Religious books and teachings outside the Bible...I'm not saying not to, however if the Bible teaches all those things already than at the very least there is no need to look for the same wisdom elsewhere.
Well yes, but it still nice to have a little variety.
Did you move recently Pacha? I thought that you lived in Tennessee?
The game feature "Religion" is just a way to customize your civilization moral codes/philosophy/etc. And that setup is translated in game modifiers.
Personally. I would prefer if all religions had fake names and symbols. I'm 100% sure a lot of problems would be avoided, since we tend to be very sensitive about our truths.
Regards,
I actually agree. The difference in religions in this game serves no purpose anyways. It's just aesthetic, and religion in general is just a template for the player.
Where I can, I will be playing as Zoroastrianism. I will use the fire of Ahura Mazda to burn the false religions of Ahriman.
I think he's done that because he's Zoidberg (notice the extra 'New').
I think I'll play with Zoroastrianism a few times and change a few things. For example, we shall worship R'hllor, the Lord of the Light!
That makes more sense...that's a big move if it were true...
No I didn't move, it's a Futurama reference. New New York is to big, loud, and scary for me, an old farm boy from Tennessee. I think that rhymes a little...
Well, try to conceive of a man like any other man who is also God. We cannot understand the nature of the difference between
God and man,which is impossible because God’s existence is founded in our minds not on the basis of logic/reason, but purely on faith, the essence of the religions. Just let go of the proof and merely believe (faith) in God’s existence.
You've taken that quote out of context and/or misquoted it. the verse is Lev 20:9 "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
It is not curse at their parents, such as "F--- You, Mom/Dad!" it is literally the ACT of cursing their parents. if you look up the original hebrew, it is:
Qalal – be of little account, to be insignificant, to be lightly esteemed, to make despicable, to treat with contempt, bring contempt or dishonor. So its not just a child who in a fit of anger curses at their parents and then gets put to death. In fact there is no mention of it being a kid/child as the modern word would imply, it is simply anyone, or in hebrew 'iysh. Which in many other uses in the bible is used to refer to any human.
Some more context can be given with the passage in Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deu 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,
Deu 21:19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
Deu 21:20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
Deu 21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
So as you can see this isnt likely a kid, unless you were a vile, immoral (see profligate) drunkard as a child.
Also as you can see this is the last resort for parents in situation like this, this isnt done on a whim this is done after all other attempts to correct the situation has failed (see verse 18) and with the consent of the elders and all the men of his town.
This isnt just "oh my kids a brat, guess ill kill him" it was a way for the nation of Israel to protect the fabric the their society, and was not done lightly.
You can't just take one verse out of the bible and say thats what the bible tells you to do. You have to take it in context with the whole thing, along with the cultural aspects of that time and language.
I know this whole thing was a bit off topic from the OP and I apologize for any derailing, I just dont like seeing people misquote, or take out of context a passage of the bible to make it look like the bible or people who believe it are advocating these wild or idiotic practices like executing children.
It represents either a willful effort to spread false information to discredit the bible and those who believe in it, a lack of care or effort in researching the true meaning of a passage before criticizing it, or a simple lack of knowledge of how to do that research. I do hope that in this case that it was the later.
I have to say I will play as a Zoroastrian in several games. You have to love the contributions Zoroastrianism has given to the world. I will set up fire temples everywhere! Probably will rename religions several times for my personal flavor as well, Cult of Chac, Cult of Seven Macaw (currently forgeting his Maya name), Cult of U K'ux Kaj, Bah'ai, and will rename Christianity when I play with it to Catholicism.
====
Edit: Oh also forgot the Cult of Maximon. And as the Cruzobs (When Flores fell to the Spaniards some surviving nobles created a resistance and an official religion trying to unite peoples).
Thanx for explaining that point...It's a difficult one to explain properly.
They all do.No disrespect to other books, but the Bible teaches....
Would it surprise you to know that Jesus is more chatty in the Quran than he is in the Bible?
Zyffer, so perhaps not just one incident then but being a total brat in general? Seems to be the only proviso you put in.
I don't care how bad of a twirp he is, he still gets the death penalty.
Not to pun or anything but... Damn!
Lets not follow that particular bit of advice as a society, agreed?
Not agreed completely, this was a person who was a of no use to society, rebellious, derisive and seen to be actively working at going against everything their society stood for. And showing a complete lack of respect for that society or its authority and showing absolutely no will to change. Should all the young men of that day been allowed to behave that way, their society would have crumbled.
Also there is the point that this was a rule that applied to the nation of Israel at that time in history and does not apply to us today. Israel was to be a place of order and holiness as an example to the rest of the world, so God couldnt allow such disruptive influences to take over. Many people use these old testament laws that applied to Israel to try and discredit the bible or God himself. But its important to note that the laws of Israel were a picture to the world of how impossible it was to attain God's favor by works. Now, we are no longer under the law but under Grace, so in one respect your right, its not a practice we are to follow today, but that doesnt make the bible wrong in what it says here. Simple not applicable to today, but it gives us historical information as well as a picture of what it is to be under Grace instead of the law. The book of Hebrews goes into this in detail if you care to investigate further.
Regards
Also, during that period, as recorded in the Bible, the Israelites were God's people. This meant that the Israelites had to stand out as an example for the rest of the world...So that is why the laws were particularly strict on the Israelites. If they were allowed to behave in any way they wished, no matter how bad, then that would reflect on God.
Yes all Religious teachings preach the same values, even though they fight over what to believe. Did you know the Tipitaka is 12 times the size of the bile with over 12,000 pages? Most of it is in Pali to and it costs 2,000 dollars. I still want it though, the Buddha was wise and one must take note of his teachings.
About the whole stoning thing, it was a different time, as Homero mentioned in a different thread "You cannot judge a nations past by today's standards" or something like that. Besides what the people that have already lined up to tell you the buisness, I must also say that a different time calls for different measures.
One of the nice things about the Bible is how it teaches this..."YOU received free, give free." (B part of Matthew 10:8)
Not everyone can afford a book that costs $2000, and while the Bible is sold in bookstores everywhere, it's also available for free everywhere.
You can also get the Tripitaka in PDF/E-Reader format.
And it's probably cheaper.
You don't agree Zyffer? I asked if we, in our society, should kill rebellious children?
I admire that you stick to your guns.
Zyffer was trying to explain how the translation can be misleading, and what is actually meant...
Also, as we all well know, one does not have to still be a literal child to have parents who are still alive. To be politically correct, this is about continuously and unrepentantly evil and rebellious humans who will not change.if you look up the original hebrew, it is: Qalal – be of little account, to be insignificant, to be lightly esteemed, to make despicable, to treat with contempt, bring contempt or dishonor. So its not just a child who in a fit of anger curses at their parents and then gets put to death. In fact there is no mention of it being a kid/child as the modern word would imply, it is simply anyone, or in hebrew 'iysh. Which in many other uses in the bible is used to refer to any human.
Some more context can be given with the passage in Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deu 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,
Deu 21:19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
Deu 21:20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
Deu 21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
So as you can see this isnt likely a kid, unless you were a vile, immoral (see profligate) drunkard as a child.
Also as you can see this is the last resort for parents in situation like this, this isnt done on a whim this is done after all other attempts to correct the situation has failed (see verse 18) and with the consent of the elders and all the men of his town.
This isnt just "oh my kids a brat, guess ill kill him" it was a way for the nation of Israel to protect the fabric the their society, and was not done lightly.
You can't just take one verse out of the bible and say thats what the bible tells you to do. You have to take it in context with the whole thing, along with the cultural aspects of that time and language.
"'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head'
Right, so a child (of whatever age) can be put to death if it is determined they have 'cursed' (vague enough to allow a very broad interpretation) their mother or father. I'm sure the child often received a fair trial with access to legal representation before being stoned to death
God really should have come up with a better judicial code, it makes Saudi Arabia's look liberal. I doubt that any of you giving kindly interpretations to the texts would want to live in a society where such laws existed.
Its clear you didnt read anything i said. I said, this isnt a kid/child. This is an adult who is doing nothing good at all. To understand why this is the parents taking care of this you have to understand jewish culture of the time. "Children" or more accurately translated the offspring of someone else, i.e. ANYONE, often lived with their parents their whole lives. You cant look at a lot of the old testament stuff and compare it to our society, they are totally different.
My main point is that the translation form hebrew to english is misleading due to the modern usage of the word child. If you are 30 years old and living on your parents farm in ancient Israel, you are still their, "child" and under their authority untill they pass and leave you your inheritance, which would have been the land and livestock.
This passage is refering to an adult who is so immoral and rebellious and drunk all the time that he is causing his family name to be tarnished as well as undermining the very foundations of their society. AND who after being reprimanded multiple times shows absolutely no remorse.
This law was set up by God to keep a vile and immoral generation from replacing their parents and turning Israel into a godless immoral nation. That is why the punishment is so harsh. And also as you seem to have ignored, I said this was a law for Israel only, in that time period not for today.
See the parable of the of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32 to see what this same situation looks like now, under Grace, via the new covenant in Christ.
Christ said in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." the new livving translation translates it as "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." The laws purpose was to highlight our wickedness and illustrate our need for a savior, now that that savior is here, the law is fulfilled in the Grace and Forgiveness of God.
So to answer your question, No, I do not think we should be killing rebellious "Children" in todays society. Had you actually read what I wrote earlier, rather than insisting on your attempt to discredit biblical beliefs you would have seen that.
Zyffer,
Your explanation on this is as good as any I have ever read, including those of doctors of theology. You have made an excellent effort to explain this clearly. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, the internet is full of "experts on everything," especially on forums of any kind. These are the people who already know it all, and if they don't, they read a quick wiki entry and pretend they already knew it. Their goal is not to learn, but to simply never be wrong. As such, as good as your writing on the matter is, it will have no effect on people like that. I wouldn't bother continuing to try with them. You obviously have a mind for this kind of thing, have you considered studying it (or another subject) academically?
Thank you very much, Builder. To answer your question yes I have, I attended a bible college for about 2 1/2 years right after highschool, but ended up dropping out. Unfortunately at the time i was young and immature and hadn't developed very good study habits in high school, which caused me to neglect my studies and start failing a few classes. Mostly cause of papers i failed to turn in cause i was hanging out with my friends in the coffee shop or playing computer games instead of studying or doing school work. I wish i could go back in time and give past me a good smack upside the head. Still though, i'm thankful for the education i managed to reap from it, and the experiences, not to mention my wife
.
I read everything you said.
You interpret your way around the bible like people have been doing for... ever. It doesn't mean what it says, it means what I think it really meant. Oh and by the way it is infallible...God is very lucky that after so long and so many people not being able to read his perfect book correctly that you came around to set it all straight.
Personally I may find your reading far fetched. But I'm willing to go along with you. Surely, in this case a child cursing his parents means a useless adult. OK None of that even addressed my question though. To Revisit, this is the meat of it.
Lets not follow that particular bit of advice as a society, agreed?The bible says we should kill those society finds useless then?Not agreed completely, this was a person who was a of no use to society
Since my original accretion was that western religions tend to mix the benevolent stuff with heavy handed punishments (I called it bipolar) I used this as one example of such. Don't you think it fits?
(Edit: Spelling)
Last edited by Artifex; 05-03-2012 at 04:57 PM.
Builder,
You don't need to be well-read in theology to realise that the Bible is a product of its time and place, nothing more.
If there is a creator of the universe (which I doubt) I'm sure it would be insulted or amused to learn that such a book, written by primitive creatures who recently crawled out of the oceans of some insignificant little planet in one of the billions and billions of galaxies it had created, had the nerve to attribute it to him/her/it.
Artifex and Evilsooty, your arrogance and ignorance are evident to all but you. Your even taking things i said out of context now Artifex, it seems you have a gift for pulling out snippets to mean what you like. Your attitude makes it not worth the effort to try and explain things anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95SYdjRVCR0
And yet still....this deserves the death penalty? Sorry dude, still an evil, evil book.So as you can see this isnt likely a kid, unless you were a vile, immoral (see profligate) drunkard as a child.
This is unfortunate because I've been trying so hard to actually converse on point. Even acceding to assume for the sake of conversation that your interpretation is correct. Was that the arrogant or ignorant in your mind?
I'm really sorry you feel that way.
I try not to bring "attitude" as you colorfully describe it to my conversations. But since you have responded to my honest questions by telling me what a douche I am for saying there is some fire and brimstone in the bible (I thought that was a widely held belief in all honesty) you will probably see a touch or two of attitude here-within. If my questions bother you feel free to ignore them. I'll never try to force an answer from you. But if you give one I'll assume you mean it.
Really sir, quoting you is not twisting words. I'll allow you to say the bible needs interpretation, but you are not a prophet from millenia ago. So if you want to "explain things to me" then I'll assume you mean what you actually say.
To sum up: I was just called arrogant by the man who has an infallible book that only he can correctly decode.
Oy vey
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