Drm?

[Zardus]

As much as this topic sucks, I was wondering what DRM Firaxis (or 2k?) were considering for XCOM:EU. For me personally, DRM has become a bigger and bigger issue as time's gone on (and DRM schemes have gotten crazier). I realize I'm probably heavily in the minority, but any sort of internet activation or being-online requirements would preclude people like me from purchasing the game. I'm a firm believer in being able to go back and replay a game 10 or 15 years later (and this is something that I do on a regular basis), and such DRM would make that impossible.

Given all those uncomfortable politics, is there any word on how Firaxis/2k feel about DRM, and what kind of DRM they plan on including? It would be awesome to be able to buy this game on release :-)

[Inkidu]

No word on DRM, but the PC version will probably use Steam, but that's the modus operendi of Faraxis.

[DazzD]

I hope they get this one right I will be buying it, but there are a select handful of games that I wish I had never bothered with because of the DRM. Fingers crossed this isnt one of them.

[mifkin]

Steam is horrible You know I'd consider pirating it just to avoid the DRM. This will be the first PC game I've bought in about 5 years (apart from Civilisation 4 and getting that to work was torture) I just want to be able to put it in and play.

[Running Wild]

Dunno, much rather deal with Steam than have a limit of 3 installs, or some other silly way that cripples my computer. DRM No thank you!

[Spleenslitta]

No thanks to DRM. I'm pretty satisfied with Steam but whenever some really complicated DRM shows up in a game i'm itching to play i nearly start crying in pure frustration.

[Aknazer]

I hate a lot of the DRM stuff that has been coming out. I've heard rumors that the next gen consoles might not even let you play used games and I know if that happens I won't be getting a new console. Likewise I'm debating not getting the next SCII game because I hate the DRM on the Terran stuff (I had to wait about a week to play it cuz I was on a trip with no internet and didn't log in after installing it once, I was not pleased).

One ironic thing is that heavy DRM really does push people to illegally obtain the product more than it protects the product most of the time. Some people view it as a challenge, some steal it as a big FU for adding DRM, while others do it because they simply don't want to deal with the DRM issues.

[Spleenslitta]

One ironic thing is that heavy DRM really does push people to illegally obtain the product more than it protects the product most of the time. Some people view it as a challenge, some steal it as a big FU for adding DRM, while others do it because they simply don't want to deal with the DRM issues.

I've yet to pirate a single game, but i can really understand this line of thinking very well in all it's aspects.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Steam is horrible You know I'd consider pirating it just to avoid the DRM. This will be the first PC game I've bought in about 5 years (apart from Civilisation 4 and getting that to work was torture) I just want to be able to put it in and play.

Do you have a better alternative? 'Cuz from where I'm sitting, Steam is the least odious DRM scheme around. Would you prefer a (potentially) hardware destroying rootkit like, say, Starforce or SecuRom?

I've yet to pirate a single game, but i can really understand this line of thinking very well in all it's aspects.

I can certainly understand the reasoning, but that doesn't change the fact that it's wholly counterproductive since the shareholders see "n torrent downloads" and assume that n is how many sales they lost.

[Steelsky]

Just about the only way they can get me to not buy this game is to include some version og Rootkit DRM.

As I think I've said somewhere on here before my preferred option would be exactly what they have done with Civ, buy a disc, install it and while it does that it will active it on Steam for you. Then in a few years when I want to install it on a new computer I don't have to find the disc from the shelf, I just click the magical Install button and wait.

If I buy it on an actual physical disc is 100 dependent on the extras I'll get by getting the Collectors Edition, we all know a major title doesn't release without it these days.

/Yks

[japester]

I seriously doubt you'll ever hear what DRM a company is considering. It's obviously a very complex issue, and the first thing we hear will most likely be whatever choice they've made. And nothing has been announced yet, AFAIK.

Also, just a quick reminder that the rules strictly forbid piracy talk:
http://forums.2kgames.com/announcement.php?f=7
This kind of discussion invariably leads to such comments, and we don't want to see anyone banned for a rhetorical or "innocent" comment. If you think a particular DRM may cause you not to buy a game, you can say that. But that's as far as it goes.

It's funny, but now that we have mature digital platforms like Steam, I'm not worried about being able to play my original copy of a game 10-15 years down the road. Good games will always come back. Hell, the original XCOM appearing on Steam for a couple of bucks is proof-positive of that. Heck, 10-15 years down the road you'll probably be able to buy XCOM:EU as part of a collection for 99 cents and play it on your smart phone. LOL

And I can't believe people are still putting Starforce and SecuROM in the same sentence. Anyone who experienced Starforce first-hand would never make that kind of mistake.

[misterlarry]

They named Starforce incorrectly, it should have been Starcurse. Worst ever!

[Mindless]

"Anyone who experienced Starforce first-hand would never make that kind of mistake." YES! Was thinking this as well, I'll have Securerom any day!

As for EU, Steam would be okay... but I would much prefer the DRM that CD Project RED used with they're recently released The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition.

[Goodfeller]

They named Starforce incorrectly, it should have been Starcurse. Worst ever!

Yep, that completely wretched the DVD drive on one of my PCs.

My biggest problem with steam at the moment is that playing games offline is a bit of a crapshoot. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. All my games are loaded on to my laptop and I play them mostly away from home. Gets pretty annoying when I get the message that I'm not allowed to play offline because I'm NOT connected to the internet.

[Nashk]

If they have to use DRM I will accept steam, but that means I cannot buy game until long after release.

Yes that's right, can't. I would be unable to buy the game at release if they use steam. You guys try buying a game and downloading it when you have a five gig limit per month, at speeds of 10 kbs per second.

[obi-one-kaboozi]

One ironic thing is that heavy DRM really does push people to illegally obtain the product more than it protects the product most of the time. Some people view it as a challenge, some steal it as a big FU for adding DRM, while others do it because they simply don't want to deal with the DRM issues.

The sad truth is that if we all want companies to make money on their hard work producing good games that we like, and make enough money to continue making games we like, we have to be subjected to DRM because there are too many low life life theives of the world which feel entitled to steal whatever they dont want to pay for. A thief will always find a reason to validate why they choose to steal, but it makes them no less a thief any more than it makes the victim of the theft responsible for it. I would encourage people to name, shame and blame the low life theives rather than complain to those trying to protect themselves from them. When it becomes socially dispicable then the losses will be mitigated only to the lowest of the group.

With that little rant, I hope their DRM does allow for offline play and considerations are in place for when or if the product goes out of support such as releasing the DRM requirments at such time the company no longer chooses to support the product.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If they have to use DRM I will accept steam, but that means I cannot buy game until long after release.

Yes that's right, can't. I would be unable to buy the game at release if they use steam. You guys try buying a game and downloading it when you have a five gig limit per month, at speeds of 10 kbs per second.

I'm fairly certain there will be a retail version with the data on the disk. Civ 5 did after all.

[Aknazer]

The sad truth is that if we all want companies to make money on their hard work producing good games that we like, and make enough money to continue making games we like, we have to be subjected to DRM because there are too many low life life theives of the world which feel entitled to steal whatever they dont want to pay for. A thief will always find a reason to validate why they choose to steal, but it makes them no less a thief any more than it makes the victim of the theft responsible for it. I would encourage people to name, shame and blame the low life theives rather than complain to those trying to protect themselves from them. When it becomes socially dispicable then the losses will be mitigated only to the lowest of the group.

With that little rant, I hope their DRM does allow for offline play and considerations are in place for when or if the product goes out of support such as releasing the DRM requirments at such time the company no longer chooses to support the product.

Ah but it's a vicious cycle. They put the DRM on there to try and stop thieves. People besides thieves see DRM as a "challenge" to overcome and they want to "stick it to the man" or they find the DRM simply overly burdensome and so they work to overcome the DRM. This then means that the company works harder on the DRM, which likely means its more burdensome on the end-user, and the cycle goes on.

The holy grail of DRM would be something that was cheap to develop (less cost to pass onto the consumer), stops nearly all theft, and that the end-user never even knows is there. Of course I don't see that happening and so it is a balancing act for the publisher because the fact is if it is too burdensome it WILL push people to steal the product even if they would have bought it otherwise.

And please note that I am not advocating the theft of video games or saying if they put on X DRM style then I'm going to pirate it or anything like that. I'm simply talking about the psychology of what drives some people to pirate a game.

[Dohon]

I believe that one of most effective DRM's (aka The Holy Grail) would be one where you are forced to be online, all the time. When installing the game, you would be installing art assets, engine code, whatever. But you need to get online to make it all click. Be it because the server is needed to compute date and report back the results to you or simply because only the server has the neccessary stuff, you need to have a registered copy on an online account in order to play. I know that even this DRM can be defeated (World of Warcraft for instance has its private servers), but those private servers need both effort and money to stay operational. And since pirates tend to pirate because it's free, the whole idea of private servers isn't goint to happen on a massive scale.

Ubisoft has already tried this new DRM approach, but failed because their servers couldn't handle the load and fans were against it. Activision is going to try to make it work. They might succeed, they might not. For all we know, 2KGames might want to have something similar implemented. We don't know.

Suffice to say that if they go for this allways-on crap, I'm not getting the game. I won't get Diablo 3 either. I simply do not have the luxury of always-available internet and if I cannot play my game, why bother getting it? Why should I be punished because I want to play this game on my laptop during a train ride for instance? I can understand the idea of DRM, I can agree with the need for it. But not with the always online stuff. I'd rather take a Windows Live game then. Even that horrible piece of protection has a way to use it offline. At this moment anyways.

[craziestp]

I believe that one of most effective DRM's (aka The Holy Grail) would be one where you are forced to be online, all the time. When installing the game, you would be installing art assets, engine code, whatever. But you need to get online to make it all click. Be it because the server is needed to compute date and report back the results to you or simply because only the server has the necessary stuff, you need to have a registered copy on an online account in order to play. I know that even this DRM can be defeated (World of Warcraft for instance has its private servers), but those private servers need both effort and money to stay operational. And since pirates tend to pirate because it's free, the whole idea of private servers isn't goint to happen on a massive scale.

In no way is this anywhere near a "Holy Grail" of DRM. Not only does it greatly piss off consumers, including yourself as you mentioned, but apparently, it is fairly easy to get around. From what I've read, games that use this type of DRM, such as Assassin's Creed II, can have the DRM bypassed by emulating a server within the program locally. As you said, even WoW has private servers and I'm sure people are able to emulate WoW servers locally without an internet connection. The only reason they don't do this is because it totally undermines the entire purpose of playing WoW (online RPG interaction with other real people).

Honestly, the closest thing you're ever going to get to a "Holy Grail" (something which benefits everyone) with this game would be to have some kind of multiplayer functionality. This makes it so that anyone who doesn't buy the game are only able to play half a game (single player only) and will constantly see that they are missing out on some fun multiplayer action. In addition, I think it'd be pretty fun to play tactical scenarios 1v1 as the aliens against humans. I always felt that it was a letdown in the original that I couldn't play the game in hot seat multiplayer with my brother.

[eastc]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielny...rojekt-on-drm/

There is no holy grail. That said, I'm sure there will be some DRM on the box. CDProjekt is the only big developer that releases games w/o DRM currently. If it's just steam I might buy it. If it was just a disc check I'd get the special edition box! Sadly, publishers have never ceased to disappoint me so I'll probably wait till after release to see how badly we customers get screwed first. It's always sad to see old IPs get rough housed over -- hopefully, this'll be different *fingers crossed*.

[JamesX]

I actually hope they use Steam. This way I don't have to worry about finding my DVDs in my messy room for an re-install, even if I ordered the Special Edition.

[jjdh]

Thanks for making this remake of X-COM, have been waiting for this to come out for a long time.

I was on the verge of pre-ordering the game through Amazon, but would like to know if there is any DRM and if so, what kind of DRM is on the game.

Bought the original X-COM and still spin it up now and again. Don't like DRM that will prevent me from doing the same with this game in 10 years time.

Don't especially mind having to have the DVD in the drive, but always needing to be online to be able to play the game or having to authenticate through a server that may not be running anymore in 10 years time feels more like renting and is the main reason why I haven't picked up Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3.

Hope you're not using anything as drastic as this, since I really wouldn't want to miss this game.

Cheers,
Jan.

[carldivine]

devs did not comment when asked about this. steam would be a likely suspect.

[Rtron]

I dont play most of my games on a PC whats DRM?

[Jeep-Eep]

Digital rights management-the latest in a long line of attempts to stop people pirating code that has only, as a rule, served to annoy the legitimate users and goad on the pirates. This stuff dates back to the nineties, when it was codewheels and whatnot. These days, it tends to be a lot more stupid.

The only scheme that really has worked ever is Steamworks- mainly because steam offers a decent services besides piracy supression and doesn't screw up your hardware (*cough* starforce *cough*). Chances are, that's what XCOM will use.

[Usul]

Didnt we already have a thread about this?

[Peggle20]

Possibly uses steamworks, which I'm a-okay with. If there's one gang of folks I would trust to handle DRM in a benign way, it's Valve.

[nipsen]

After buying Spec Ops: The Line, and seeing no nasty on-line passes, or cumbersome activations, and so on. Along with actual client filtering and good matching for the most part.. I kind of don't have too many misgivings about what they'll end up with.

But yeah. If they pick something that a marketing manager insists is "perfectly acceptable for a title like this", etc., I'm going to cry.

[RealTiberius]

Anyone remember what the original Xcom had? Every time you loaded up the game it would ask you a question and you had to dig out your manual and look up the page it asks about and input the correct answer in order to play. If you lost your manual, you lost your ability to play the game. It's the reason I had to stop playing the original for a few years. I lost my manual. I found it on Steam and repurchased it and play it fairly regularly now but I do remember the original having a quite annoying requirement to play every time.

[DerrHans]

I rather not use steam and i dont like DRM but its something unavoidable.

It should be a choice, if people wants to use steam than by all means use it with X-Com but leave the choice open for those who does not use steam (people like me). Online activation i dont mind, as long as Firaxis supply us a patch to deactivate this activation once they stop supporting the game and take down the activation servers.

After i stopped buying games from Ubisoft i haven't experienced unplayable games due to DRM anymore.
Never got an issue with 2K's DRM yet but than again this would be the first 2K game i buy :P, let alone from Firaxis as i honestly never heard of them until now and by looking up their history i got faith in them to make a good game. (no fan of civilization sorry but those games are loved by many that are loyal to the franchise)

I dont buy games often as i dont see many games that really is worth the 50 to 60 euro's they dare to ask over here for 10hours of play time.

TL&DR:
Dont mind DRM and dont mind Steam, as long as we get a choice to not use steam.

Anyone remember what the original Xcom had? Every time you loaded up the game it would ask you a question and you had to dig out your manual and look up the page it asks about and input the correct answer in order to play. If you lost your manual, you lost your ability to play the game. It's the reason I had to stop playing the original for a few years. I lost my manual. I found it on Steam and repurchased it and play it fairly regularly now but I do remember the original having a quite annoying requirement to play every time.

Patch 1.4 removed it, it was common back in the days to use these kind of protection.
I took the time to type those numbers in a text file incase of losing the manual.

But with all good games i take care of the boxes and manuals and have them placed in my "showcase closet" or how u call it in english language lol. So yea i still got my manual but i do have it patched to 1.4 and i just press enter when they ask for a number.

[AmazingMoose]

Meh.

If the game goes on steam, I guess i won't be playing it.

I never once had an even passable experience with steam, so that's a no go for me.
Shame really.

[nipsen]

Anyone remember what the original Xcom had?

Yeah. It had a crack.

[mbpopolano24]

It's going to be Steam. Which sucks but better than no game at all, I guess. I had to give in and start using it. Damn you!

[RealTiberius]

I actually like Steam(and their near constant sales on good games). It automatically keeps my games up to date so I don't have to go searching the internet for patches anymore and I can go into offline mode anytime I don't want to be online. This won't be the first game I own that requires Steam either. The Total War series has required it for years. I really don't get what the hate about Steam is all about. I have seen in other forums where people will say that they won't even buy a game if it is even ever made available on Steam, let alone require it. Given the alternatives of other more destructive DRM's available to game publishers (thinking of the bug that caused paid for copies of Dragon Age to lose all purchased DLC), I think Steam is pretty good choice.

[Frisbu]

Maybe I am obsolete in videogames world but... What is DRM and Steam? I supose for what i read here that are antipiracy sistem?

[PeppermintShore]

its simple. DRM exists because people pirate media. They have tried several ways to stop this, from codes on the box to back in the day having a lense you put over a picture to get a code that you type in. Unfortunately companies are out to make money and stop pirate making money of there produces that don't see a penny of. So DRM is born as it the companies way of taking back control. I for one am behind DRM as i have freinds in the music industry that loose so much of the royalties because some cheap git wont shell out £4.99 for there album.

Get use to it people, as long as pirates rip media, DRM will be in place and getting more prevalent as the years go by and digital copies take over.

The media companies are just playing the waiting game, waiting for fast speed internet to be present in most areas and then you will see a decline in physical media and an increase in Digital Download and streaming like onlive, itunes, Steam, Netflix, and to be honest i am fine with that as lone as the start reflecting the digital copy prices with the physical and companies like amazon, play, hmv, itunes etx can compete with prices so we can shop where we like for the best deals while allowing these firms to make money and the developers/artists to get there fare share too.

How cool would it be to have apps on your xbox, ps3, ps vita, WiiU, 3DS for amazon, hmv, play.com etc. Rather than microsoft, playstaion and nintendo stores setting the prices with no competitors to make them compete.

[japester]

Maybe I am obsolete in videogames world but... What is DRM and Steam? I supose for what i read here that are antipiracy sistem?

Wow, really? I can see not knowing what DRM is, but Steam, too?

You guessed right on DRM. It stands for "Digital Rights Management". And it's a way for copyright holders to curb the tidal wave of rights violations that take place every day. An imperfect solution to a huge problem. The most restrictive version requires even single player games to be online all the time, to verify the authenticity of the game, but 2K hasn't used that yet, to the best of my knowledge.

Steam is simply an amazing resource for PC gamers. I was a late adopter myself, but now I'm hooked. Mainly because I can't resist a good sale, and I've picked up dozens of big titles for 75-90% off during their regular discount events. The Steam service was created by Valve, a game company (Half-Life). The biggest draw for me is that your games are tied to a user, not to a machine. So when I travel, I can log into my Steam account at a friend's place, download any of the games in my library, and start playing. My login is required, though, so my buddy can't play after I leave.

[PeppermintShore]

Also steam is great for older games and building in solutions to allow the game to play on new versions of windows using DOSbox etc. Means that any games you buy have a good chance of bing future proofed

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Wow, really? I can see not knowing what DRM is, but Steam, too?

You guessed right on DRM. It stands for "Digital Rights Management". And it's a way for copyright holders to curb the tidal wave of rights violations that take place every day. An imperfect solution to a huge problem. The most restrictive version requires even single player games to be online all the time, to verify the authenticity of the game, but 2K hasn't used that yet, to the best of my knowledge.

Steam is simply an amazing resource for PC gamers. I was a late adopter myself, but now I'm hooked. Mainly because I can't resist a good sale, and I've picked up dozens of big titles for 75-90% off during their regular discount events. The Steam service was created by Valve, a game company (Half-Life). The biggest draw for me is that your games are tied to a user, not to a machine. So when I travel, I can log into my Steam account at a friend's place, download any of the games in my library, and start playing. My login is required, though, so my buddy can't play after I leave.

To add onto this, Steam also has the benefit of a fully integrated online community - including VIOP (ie voice), multiplayer matchmaking, chat, and nowadays even mod management and downloading for some games. Far more useful to me, though, is the ingame overlay that lets you surf the internet while playing, which is really handy for looking up FAQs and such instead of having to alt-tab out (most games hate alt-tabbing) or quitting the game and then restarting.

Oh, the overlay also includes a built in clock, which is handy for keeping "just one more turn" syndrome from setting in on like Civ 4/5.

As far as DRM schemes go, Steam is pretty benign, and it includes useful features as well, so I don't mind it. Most of my games these days are on Steam.