Is there any logistics at all?

[Lochar]

From what I have been reading, there is a very minmal loadout system. While I wasnt happy with no ammo anymore, does this mean everything from the logistics side is gone as well?

What about flares, vision enhancements, stun wands for captures, c4, different types of ammo/grenades like incendiary/stun/fragmenation/ap/he, etc etc? No room to carry backup equipment for certain enemies? Or is there some toggle to switch your assualt projectile to a laser rifle? Or will that be a special action point to use some special power?

While I do like the base idea, and the TU's being streamlined into something different , I cant help what wonder, if this game has been stripped of so much to make a simple streamlined fast pasted tactical 3rd person shooter?

I will wait and see what else comes out of the pipe, but I grew up with this game, and while the modern gamer may find the logistics side tedious, I thought it lent its own strategy of what to bring to the battle and having the wrong equipment could spell doom for your squad. It just makes me wonder if all the devs were fans of this game why is it seeming to me to becoming a simplified version of the old game?

I know for my first post here I wasnt more positive, but this was one of my favorite games and after seeing the horror of turning another classic into another FPS shooter and now this version with the eye candy, I just wonder if theirs any depth besides the research. The battles sound like sequential waves of enemies, where 1 group is done, a 2nd will make its appearance. While scouting for a lone enemy or any enemies wasnt fun, I dont think handholding the battle sequence will be any more of a thriller, just a faster pace of combat.

I am aware that the average gamer isnt a grognard, or has the time or patience for true turn based combat anymore. But I do hope some of the land combat survives this iteration other than naming troops..

Sorry for the negatives so much, but after digging out some of the classics and even playing some of the non xcom versions I just realized what I liked about the game. And to me logistics was a big part and not just the ammo so please dont just read that into this.

[Oathbreaker]

A concession to the console crowd and the people who don't like the minutiae of tactical turn-based combat games.

Yep it kinda sucks but it *does* in fact cut a lot of tedium out and streamlines the experience and makes the game "technically" better, even if it now has -1 to Soul and Charisma. +5 to Commercial Success, no doubt. Which will lead to better sales and more development for me in the future.

[DazzD]

A concession to the console crowd and the people who don't like the minutiae of tactical turn-based combat games.

Yep it kinda sucks but it *does* in fact cut a lot of tedium out and streamlines the experience and makes the game "technically" better, even if it now has -1 to Soul and Charisma. +5 to Commercial Success, no doubt. Which will lead to better sales and more development for me in the future.

+5 to your soul and charisma

You have summed it up, willing to loose a few good things (that I liked) to the console crowd, if it means we get the game and maybe a few more. If the game is a success we might get a few of those things back later.

[Oathbreaker]

The second iteration, probably a DLC or expac, will probably have expanded aliens, expanded missions, mod support (?) and a bunch of new technology.

New technology = more gear choices. Massive amount of gear and research choices = there's your micro management. So yes, it could easily happen, just not in the traditional RPG sense of "I open up my bottomless backpack inventory and place this in the Hand slot, this in the Off-Hand slot, this in the left upper leg pocket, this in the right back pocket, this miniature weapon in the ring slot, this talisman of +7% PSI Power in the neck slot with an integrated Extra Advanced Rubberized Helmet with a Cauliflowered Enchant."

[Freeman.Alex]

I also enjoyed the logistical tasks, it was a great mechanism to retreat to after the lengthy combat runs that really involved us in the full spectrum of running a command center.
I have a question that I wasn't able to find much of an answer for: any info on how in depth the political aspect of the new XCOM game will be? More in depth? Stream-lined/stripped down? (I don't mean to disrupt the direction of this thread but figured it was a very closely related issue).

[Lochar]

+5 to your soul and charisma

You have summed it up, willing to loose a few good things (that I liked) to the console crowd, if it means we get the game and maybe a few more. If the game is a success we might get a few of those things back later.

Well I wonder tho, will a sucess to a streamlined simplified version of the game lead to a more complex one or keeping the same model? I already expect DLC for new weapons/armor/maps/aliens, but if they make a good cash cow will they risk it by making it more complex and thus scaring away their average consumer?

I guess my main hope will be that the PC version will have easy modding tools that some can expand on some parts of the game so we might see different aspects modded in to pick and choose what we want to add. I will admit I am a console gamer and usually will go console route if a choice is made, but this will be pure PC for me, for just the hopes of mods.

[Inkidu]

A concession to the console crowd and the people who don't like the minutiae of tactical turn-based combat games.

Yep it kinda sucks but it *does* in fact cut a lot of tedium out and streamlines the experience and makes the game "technically" better, even if it now has -1 to Soul and Charisma. +5 to Commercial Success, no doubt. Which will lead to better sales and more development for me in the future.

You know you can't blame everything on consoles. I'm actually getting quite sick of it, because you're generalizing something that isn't even true in the first place.

Regardless, I'd argue that logistics are in fact more important. You only have one base. That means one research and one manufacturing hub. That means you've got to make a choice. Send people in minus some grenades for a shiv later or give them their grenades now. You have to weigh options and decide what you people can and can't do without. It's a lot more deeper than building everything you need with a ton of engineers and buying the Terran stuff. Now you'll probably still be able to buy Terran stuff, but now the logistics of how you work out your alien gear have a lot more weight to them.

[Gen_Pho]

It is still too early to know the level of logistics in the game. My hope says enough to keep everything interesting. Firaxis is typically a good house for logistics, although we have seen less and less micromanagement in Civ through the years. That said, I will miss having ammo be a limiting factor on the firepower you can put on the field.

[b15h09]

Well I wonder tho, will a sucess to a streamlined simplified version of the game lead to a more complex one or keeping the same model? I already expect DLC for new weapons/armor/maps/aliens, but if they make a good cash cow will they risk it by making it more complex and thus scaring away their average consumer?

I guess my main hope will be that the PC version will have easy modding tools that some can expand on some parts of the game so we might see different aspects modded in to pick and choose what we want to add. I will admit I am a console gamer and usually will go console route if a choice is made, but this will be pure PC for me, for just the hopes of mods.

Agreed. Wouldn't make much sense to spend so much time stripping complexity, only to add it back in later. If the formula works, at best I'd expect a further streamlining with a heavy quickmatch MP focus in future iterations, or something along those lines.

As far as logistics, it mostly looks like a ditched aspect. Build a grenade ability, equip grenade ability. Bam, no more logistical nade worries until it's time to upgrade them.

[mifkin]

Surely as a developer, when trying to appease two camps like this, you would have a mechanism to allow both parties to be satisfied. Perhaps an option in your base to "auto equip" so you can go through the game without going into an inventory screen, or as much as you like.
To me that doesn't seem like a big jump of logic and I'd be very surprised if it weren't in the final game. Perhaps something like a civilisation advisor which you can just click "yes" to its recommendations, a Base AI or assistant perhaps.

[Gen_Pho]

How about "Hire quartermaster? Yes/No"

[katscan]

They 'sort of' appeased both camps. From what I gleam from the interviews and most recent gameplay video, this is how equipping/logistics works on the combat/equipping side of things:

Pre-mission, you choose your soldier.

Weapons- you go into their equip menu, and equip a main weapon and a sidearm. Most weapons are class locked. You do not need to put this in the soldiers inventory, you simply click on the weapons you want them to use and it equips them.

Items- you go into their equip menu. You select the item you want to equip them, and the number (if grenades). It is still unclear how many items you can equip, and how many different types of items you can equip. Is equipping 2 grenades the same as equipping 1 grenade and 1 med pack? Items encompass anything that is not a weapon: grenades, motion sensors, med kits, ammo (rockets)

In game- ALL of the items equipped appear as 'abilities' on the action bar. Guns are wrapped into the 'target/attack' ability, with the ability to switch to a sidearm if your clip is out and you don't want to waste time reloading. Grenades/medkits/etc. appear as a new 'ability' on the action bar with a certain amount of 'charges'.

The streamlining is the elimination of any consideration of weight/size of weapons and equipment. This is replaced by a simplified 'number of things' you can bring. In this way, there is never an inventory panel to access to micromanage how the items fit into your backpack, but there is still some complexity in the sense that you have a limited amount of equipment slots, so you need to choose what to bring. The downside is that you can't bring two different types of primary weapons (excluding rocket launcher type things) and can't really micromanage room in backpack vs size/number of items.

[katscan]

Oh.. as far as base level logistics, it is essentially unchanged from the original game:

You have a limited amount of engineers, and you produce a limited amount of items. The terran stuff you can buy unlimited supplies of (assuming you have room.. I bet 'general stores' is no longer a base facility in order to streamline)

The mechanic of multiple or a single base is largely irrelevant since the only thing that added is between base transfers that take time. The mechanic of X engineers producing X items remains, except concentrated in a single location.

[b15h09]

Producing an item once as opposed to producing it once for every time you use it is a pretty massive logistical difference.

[katscan]

Producing an item once as opposed to producing it once for every time you use it is a pretty massive logistical difference.

There is nothing we have seen so far to indicate this is the case. There is a quantity indicator beside items, leaving open the possibility that if you want 3 sniper rifles, you have to make 3 sniper rifles. No difference. 3 plasma grenades? You have to make them. Smaller squad sizes means less equipment needed, but this is easily balanced by reducing the number/effectiveness of engineers. In fact, it may be more important even since you aren't looting actual equipment from the battlefield any more. So it isn't like you can grab a half dozen plasma rifles off the battlefield and not have to make them. Now you will have to build each one you want to use.

[b15h09]

There is nothing we have seen so far to indicate this is the case. There is a quantity indicator beside items, leaving open the possibility that if you want 3 sniper rifles, you have to make 3 sniper rifles. No difference. 3 plasma grenades? You have to make them. Smaller squad sizes means less equipment needed, but this is easily balanced by reducing the number/effectiveness of engineers. In fact, it may be more important even since you aren't looting actual equipment from the battlefield any more. So it isn't like you can grab a half dozen plasma rifles off the battlefield and not have to make them. Now you will have to build each one you want to use.

Yeah, I don't expect a sniper rifle to be much different, other than no need to replenish ammo. But 3 grenades, and you've got your nades for 3 troops until a better model is researched. No consumption. That strikes me as pretty huge. As far as not being able to pick up and use alien gear, I don't mind the not being able to use part, but the not being able to pick up thing irks me. If you picked up, research, then could use gear acquired in battlescape after it's understood, that would have been an improvement on the original. And making plasma rifles far less common.

[Oathbreaker]

You know you can't blame everything on consoles. I'm actually getting quite sick of it, because you're generalizing something that isn't even true in the first place.

Regardless, I'd argue that logistics are in fact more important. You only have one base. That means one research and one manufacturing hub. That means you've got to make a choice. Send people in minus some grenades for a shiv later or give them their grenades now. You have to weigh options and decide what you people can and can't do without. It's a lot more deeper than building everything you need with a ton of engineers and buying the Terran stuff. Now you'll probably still be able to buy Terran stuff, but now the logistics of how you work out your alien gear have a lot more weight to them.

A) I'm not blaming everything on consoles. Both console and PC gamers are accustomed have their action fast, furious, right from the get-go and with a minimum of micro-management of inventory and the like, which is what the OP is talking about.

B) The base logistics issues you're talking about might be the correct use of the term "logistics" but is not what the OP is talking about. He's talking about inventory management - loading out the bird with the gear and then putting all that gear in various shoulder/arm/leg/belt/backpack slots on each individual soldier. That's been taken away. That inventory management has been taken away, which - like it or not - is a significant change away from traditional squad tactical turn-based games and RPG-style tactical sims.

[katscan]

Yeah, I don't expect a sniper rifle to be much different, other than no need to replenish ammo. But 3 grenades, and you've got your nades for 3 troops until a better model is researched. No consumption. That strikes me as pretty huge. As far as not being able to pick up and use alien gear, I don't mind the not being able to use part, but the not being able to pick up thing irks me. If you picked up, research, then could use gear acquired in battlescape after it's understood, that would have been an improvement on the original. And making plasma rifles far less common.

I don't believe the researched items are "do one and you are able to access it" in unlimited quatities. Otherwise, the presence of the 'quantity' counter on the weapon loadout screen would be pointless. And I believe Jake indicated that grenades are limited, so if you equip 2, you get 2 uses. If you equip 1, you get 1 use. That implies that there is a fixed quantity at base, which further implies that you need to make specific quantities of items, since they are single use.

So it looks like, except for terran stuff, there are limited amounts of things, so manufacturing and loadout is still an issue.

[b15h09]

I don't believe the researched items are "do one and you are able to access it" in unlimited quatities. Otherwise, the presence of the 'quantity' counter on the weapon loadout screen would be pointless. And I believe Jake indicated that grenades are limited, so if you equip 2, you get 2 uses. If you equip 1, you get 1 use. That implies that there is a fixed quantity at base, which further implies that you need to make specific quantities of items, since they are single use.

So it looks like, except for terran stuff, there are limited amounts of things, so manufacturing and loadout is still an issue.

I didn't mean to imply that you research something, then have an infinite supply. I mean that after you have researched and manufactured, say, a plasma grenade, and you put that on your troop, that grenade is always going to be there unless you unequip it. Using it in battle may consume a per mission charge or trigger a cooldown, but it doesn't mean you have to re-equip one before the next mission. I've figured this would work pretty much like Dawn of War II, where you equip an item, and it gives you a buff, or an ability that's on a cooldown. I haven't heard Solomon allude to nades having consumption, so that's a bit heartening (though kinda lame if you only get 2 or 3 gear slots).

[katscan]

Ah I see what you are saying. You are correct then, the 'gamey-ness' of the system will depend heavily on whether it gives you an ability with a cooldown or whether it gives you a limited quantity of the item, that can be used up (meaning you would have to re-equip it for the next mission is you use your one grenade).

[Voqar]

A concession to the console crowd and the people who don't like the minutiae of tactical turn-based combat games.

Yep it kinda sucks but it *does* in fact cut a lot of tedium out and streamlines the experience and makes the game "technically" better, even if it now has -1 to Soul and Charisma. +5 to Commercial Success, no doubt. Which will lead to better sales and more development for me in the future.

I don't see how it makes the gameplay any kind of "better" for the true fan. This isn't the kind of game or genre that appeals to the masses and trying to dumb it down in attempt to make it more accessible to people who have no interest a stupid design move. Better to stick true to the roots for those who do like the genre and do it with quality that might attract more players.

The problem I have with this as a whole (ie, this crap goes beyond firaxis) is that games like this have the PC and complexity at their core, from their roots, it's what MADE the games to begin with, and this whole redesign/reimagining thing sucks donkey when it results in stripping away so much of the core of the game.

Would anyone here, who played the originals, have said, I want to see a new XCOM come out but I want (pick an element this dev/design team has redone) removed/redone. Would you have ever said, I want XCOM without TUs? I want XCOM without inventory management? I want drastically smaller squad sizes?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't got dumber as I've got older. I like modern, streamlined games with great design and interfaces, but I don't necessarily need my gameplay dumbed down to the point of app phone. It seems like so many modern gamers want nonstop instant gratification for doing next to nothing along with zero/minimal chance at failure and not ALL games have to be made this way. They make a big deal out of the perma death for squaddies but so much of the rest of the game seems candied to the point that I really doubt even squaddie death is that big a deal.

I'll reserve final judgement until I play but so many aspects of this game are being mutilated, seemingly in the name of simplifying/dumbing down, that the game seems like it'll be XCOm in name only. Might be a good game in the end, in a different kind of way, but will it really BE XCOM is the question.

[AlphaCent]

It's sad that every developer cuts down stuff without even exploring the alternatives.

Yes, the "hire a quartermaster" is a great idea. And would it really be that difficult to allow player to choose "auto equip" or do some customization? Ok sure...spending time to decide on which side of the belt you're gonna put that grenade is rather unnecessary, but deciding if you want HE or incendiary is a must IMO. Even tough different type of ammo might be tedious to some it's a great addition.

Make just two difficulty modes..."Console" and "Classic", for the first one just make much of it automatic, but allow the second to give you more leeway.

[DP1982SK]

To be honest I agree with some decisions, but wiht some I do not...

The TU removal is not bad per definition, as long as you allow for the same flow and tactical decisions. for example not only move/action - move/move, but partial move/action/partial move/ - action/action - action/move

The base redesing. I'm all fine and dandy about the one HQ base with research and stuff, but I'd like the upgrade to airbases/firebases to allow for hosting a squad of soldiers and a dropship...

New weapon types - totally approve

Squad specializations - approve

etc. There are things though that are hard to accept... squad size being the one. No disembark phase. limited inventory management and ad-hoc adaptability... and a few more

[Gen_Pho]

It's sad that every developer cuts down stuff without even exploring the alternatives.

This game has been in development for ~3 years with many approaches prototyped. Seems pretty silly to make comments like this.

[Being]

This game has been in development for ~3 years with many approaches prototyped. Seems pretty silly to make comments like this.

And the TU prototype was basically exact copy of the original, per Jakes words (he coded it), right? Then they prototyped move-action and decreed that it is better than the TU prototype. Did they ever refine the TU system? We don't know. I suspect not.

Comparing TU-1994 with Moveaction-2012 is a bit unfair, right? Did they ever make a TU-2012?

And similar arguments for squad size.. They made something, it was too easy with big squads, they reduced squad size.. But could something else have been changed instead to make the game not so easy?

[Gazz]

Would anyone here, who played the originals, have said ... I want XCOM without TUs? I want XCOM without inventory management? I want drastically smaller squad sizes?

Not off-hand, because apparently I'm not imaginative enough.

After seeing the design laid out, I have to agree that all of those are things that I want.
(and I don't even own a console =P)

[AlphaCent]

3 years or not, a bad decision is a bad decision.

However i wasn't specifically addressing X:EU, but in more general terms.

I don't know what will be customizable, but i do know what parts of the earlier Xcom sucked or were unneeded.

Personally i don't mind this game at all aside from the visuals. Streamlining is good if you can keep most of the important decisions in.

For instance...manufacturing ammo and weapons (at least the infantry stuff) could be cut out. Because it's kinda silly developing ammo and the weapon independently. Or equipping each cartridge to a soldier. Sure it might increased tension in the game when you ran out of ammo, but that can also be done without micromanaging.

Just add a slider that allows you to choose the amount of ammo one's carrying. In game make soldiers share their ammo if they're running out with an semi automated command like: "re-arm at nearest soldier" or make the game have a re-equip spot at the insertion point.

Really there is a slot that can be done without sacrificing depth.

[katscan]

but deciding if you want HE or incendiary is a must IMO. Even tough different type of ammo might be tedious to some it's a great addition.

Selecting the types of items (and the types of grenades) to bring on a mission is still in. You will have to decide if you want A or B.. what is unknown, is how many you can take, and if you can take a mix of grenades (since there appears to be only one 'grenade' icon seen in the action bars so far). It seems pretty absurd that only the support class can use smoke grenades tho.

[Inkidu]

A) I'm not blaming everything on consoles. Both console and PC gamers are accustomed have their action fast, furious, right from the get-go and with a minimum of micro-management of inventory and the like, which is what the OP is talking about.

B) The base logistics issues you're talking about might be the correct use of the term "logistics" but is not what the OP is talking about. He's talking about inventory management - loading out the bird with the gear and then putting all that gear in various shoulder/arm/leg/belt/backpack slots on each individual soldier. That's been taken away. That inventory management has been taken away, which - like it or not - is a significant change away from traditional squad tactical turn-based games and RPG-style tactical sims.

I say if you've got it at the base-level what's the point of doing it again for some kind of inventory. As long as you make sure to give them the guns they should know what they can and can't use. In the old game I often felt like I was tying my soldiers' bootlaces for them. "Now, Skippy, are you sure you brought along enough ammo? Don't forget to call me when you get your first kill."

[Usul]

You know you can't blame everything on consoles. I'm actually getting quite sick of it, because you're generalizing something that isn't even true in the first place.

So how many management games are there for consoles? And which ones are successfull? You cant deny management-games are at home on the PC and there is a reason for that.

[b15h09]

So how many management games are there for consoles? And which ones are successfull? You cant deny management-games are at home on the PC and there is a reason for that.

M.U.L.E. ruled.

[Inkidu]

So how many management games are there for consoles? And which ones are successfull? You cant deny management-games are at home on the PC and there is a reason for that.

I think that has more to do with lazy developers not willing to create an ergonomic UI for consoles. PC players aren't the only ones who get shafted sometimes. I remember playing Civ on SNES, the UI is the biggest problem.

[Lochar]

They 'sort of' appeased both camps. From what I gleam from the interviews and most recent gameplay video, this is how equipping/logistics works on the combat/equipping side of things:


The streamlining is the elimination of any consideration of weight/size of weapons and equipment. This is replaced by a simplified 'number of things' you can bring. In this way, there is never an inventory panel to access to micromanage how the items fit into your backpack, but there is still some complexity in the sense that you have a limited amount of equipment slots, so you need to choose what to bring. The downside is that you can't bring two different types of primary weapons (excluding rocket launcher type things) and can't really micromanage room in backpack vs size/number of items.

While I don't mind reducing the amount of micro managing, and can live with a hidden inventory during combat to action keys, it still seems like what your portraying is a limited system.

Granted I will admit having all team members carrying the 1 shot kill guns reduces the fun, I still like a little variety for my squad, specially if its going to mean a smaller squad.

And what your describing , is it limited the amount of items per the soldiers rank? Will strength still be a modifier for carrying items even tho item weight is removed? I thought the weight table was good because it prevented a rookie from carrying heavy weapons at the cost of his speed, and usually a slow soldier was a dead soldier.

Also from your saying, we are going to have to decide what load out to bring pre mission not knowing what were going to encounter? So I take projectile weapons only to encounter a new alien that is impervious to kinetic damage and now either let it play out or reload and rearm for new alien? Or are they going to even have such aliens and any weapon will work to varying degrees?

If they want to eliminate ammo as a resource, fine, and inventory management , ok , but still at the pre mission screen , I would like a choice to stock HE/Incendiary/AP rounds/weapons on some troops so I do have a team that can handle any type of situations. I don't want to be caught where 1 class of soldier is only 1 who can damage a certain species, while the rest of the team is in cover just watching.

I don't mind a class system, but a bad logistics system will make a heavy weapons specialist useless once he is down to a pistol because his assigned 2-3 rockets are spent and we cant use another person as an ammo mule. I understand they want balance, but I really hope there is going to be some leeway.

[DazzD]

I am willing to give the new system a shot. I would rather all the inventory in the game if I had a choice but I can see what they are trying to do. It's one of those 'streamline' choices of 'this part' was frustrating some people, so dump it all together rather than give the option to micro or not.

How about "Hire quartermaster? Yes/No"

If they were going to change it I would've prefered your idea ^. If the player wanted full inventory they have it, if not click the hire button... Its all about the freedom of choice.

Weapons- you go into their equip menu, and equip a main weapon and a sidearm. Most weapons are class locked. You do not need to put this in the soldiers inventory, you simply click on the weapons you want them to use and it equips them.

Just a thought... we don't know what class the soldier is for the first few missions do we? So I am assuming that the first few missions the soldier will only get the choice of a standard SMG and side arm if the weapons are class specific. So the rookie will be the rookie with the lowest weapons Will make it interesting training noobs into the squads.

Now do I let him run by himself so he doesn't shoot a friendly in the back but is easy prey... Or do I protect him in the squad but run the risk of friendly fire. In Apoc I always had the rookie squad by itself and an elite squad to cover the noobs. If a rookie done one of those WTF (insert slap face icon here) moves like throwing a grenade into the man 1 square in front of him I wouldn't loose a trained soldier.

[heniv]

DAMN what a messy thread. OP, look up the meaning of Logistics. Half the thread is talking about Base logistics and half about Equipment loadout.

On Equipment Loadout.
All XCOM and UFO games used a inventory grid system, most had huge grid space. Firaxis removed this to have each soldier be a one-man-army or jack-of-all-trades. UFO:AL had a reduced grid space balanced with armour type, it did not solve the problem.

The new Enemy Unknown seems to use a list-slot system, 4 slots are shown in the PAX video (Armour, Prim. Weapon, Sec. Weapon and Grenade). A slot system is not bad, it is being used in a majority of games today (from Diablo3 to Battlefield2).
It does limit player choice however (that's the whole point).


On Base Logistics
A lot of the logistical gameplay in the original seems to be removed, we no longer need to resupply ammo (it seems). Items like grenades and medi-kits are still unknown, even though they have charges (like the RPG) they may resupply by automatic after each mission.

Personally I like this strategical/logistical management in the game, even down to the skill-level of scientists & engineers in UFO:AL. Someone said in another thread that the Commander does not deal with things like this, a Quartermaster or someone else does. But a Commander doesn't choose individual soldiers gear either the micromanagement can be a gameplay mechanic.

[Inkidu]

I'm just saying at some point making sure your people have enough ammo on their individual persons is not fun, it's like reminding them to breathe. I'm not exactly unhappy to see ammo manufacturing going, but I would have been happy with being able to place bulk orders to manufacture or buy ammo. I'm not talking bout making a mess. I'm talking about how they did cannon rounds in the first game. 1 equals 50 clips and so on, because that's the kind of order a base commander places.

[Gen_Pho]

I didn't find managing equipment to be all that interesting at the start of the game. It becomes really important as you start accumulating and research alien tech though. It is what prevents you from finishing research and all of a sudden being awesome. For me buying rifle clips was annoying, but managing plasma clips was interesting because of the competing needs for Elerium.

Do I spend my elerium on these new clips, or do I use laser rifles so I can fuel up this new craft?

If they can constrict the organizations money flow sufficiently then I think this dynamic can still exist without the need to go into your buy items screen and click 40 times to get your soldiers enough ammo for each mission.

Also, I have to point out that ammo supply isn't quite as basic as breathing or tying shoes....

[katscan]

Just a thought... we don't know what class the soldier is for the first few missions do we? So I am assuming that the first few missions the soldier will only get the choice of a standard SMG and side arm if the weapons are class specific. So the rookie will be the rookie with the lowest weapons Will make it interesting training noobs into the squads.

Now do I let him run by himself so he doesn't shoot a friendly in the back but is easy prey... Or do I protect him in the squad but run the risk of friendly fire. In Apoc I always had the rookie squad by itself and an elite squad to cover the noobs. If a rookie done one of those WTF (insert slap face icon here) moves like throwing a grenade into the man 1 square in front of him I wouldn't loose a trained soldier.

Correct, sort of... But I expect it will only take one or two (at most) missions to unlock a trooper's class.. maybe even one mission.. And up to that point, they will be using the not-class locked assault rifle, which is still a viable weapon for the sniper class on missions where long lines of sight may not be present. So the weapons won't be weaker for the rookies, just not as specialized as the class locked weapons.

I wonder if friendly fire is included??

[Gen_Pho]

I wonder if friendly fire is included??

It had better frickin be included.

[katscan]

And what your describing , is it limited the amount of items per the soldiers rank? Will strength still be a modifier for carrying items even tho item weight is removed? I thought the weight table was good because it prevented a rookie from carrying heavy weapons at the cost of his speed, and usually a slow soldier was a dead soldier.

Also from your saying, we are going to have to decide what load out to bring pre mission not knowing what were going to encounter? So I take projectile weapons only to encounter a new alien that is impervious to kinetic damage and now either let it play out or reload and rearm for new alien? Or are they going to even have such aliens and any weapon will work to varying degrees?

LOL @ GenPho.. You should add that to the podcast question thread

Correct - you will have to decide loadout prior to the mission, including weapons. Since different ammo types are not in the game, you will not have to worry about that. Also, in the interest of streamlining and because many weapons are class locked, I seriously doubt we will see aliens weak to a particular weapon type.

The amount of 'slots' for equipping items is fixed, regardless of the soldier level. Therefore, factors such as strength are not in the game.