League chat

[SVPM]

Tru....lets compare the bonii....indias bonii are all good....especially their early ones.....you start with no anrachy...thats OK....you start with extra resources..pretty good in ancient...awesome+ in midevil....then you get fundy......
Greece starts with Demo and a coutrhouse. Both of which are worthless early on unless you take advantage of pikes for defense....then greece gets more great people(that bonus doesnt even work). So at this point its very obvious that india has the advantage...2/3 early bonii are nice....none of Greeces are at all.

So lets move this discussion to the industrial era. greece gets half cost libraries....awesome right?? only if you are china. Lets compare this too indias bonus. They get half cost settlers.....so lets compare. in industrial a library half off is 80 bucks and a settler is 80 bucks. For india a settler is 40 bucks...therefore I can settler 4 cities for the price it costs you to build one with a library.....this is way better when you consider that 2 cities is usually equal to a city with a library....so india wins again right??

So lets take it to modern....both are worthless....india gets half cost courthouse....big whoop.....nobody builds coutrhouses.....greece gets +1 food.....big deal......when are you in the modern era long enough for this to even matter....

I agree totally with you that India is better, even if more great people do work. You will see that your total output of culture added toward next gp is 50% of your culture output. It's just not written in the city screen.

[JackHall2003]

Greece starts with Demo and a coutrhouse. Both of which are worthless early on

I wouldn't say the courthouse is worthless...can give you some flexibility on a settling spot when going for a walk-in

Still not a patch on indians though

[GrizzleyTigers4]

I wouldn't say the courthouse is worthless...can give you some flexibility on a settling spot when going for a walk-in

Still not a patch on indians though

Precisely.....the main advantage is the settler walking....it does increase your odds of an awesome start....I thin that is the only real advantage greece has over india other than early defense...

[ITZ DENI3D]

Playing an epic game with Mawpawk right now I won my first against Duke with French and lost second after I lost 7 even/slightly in my favor battles. This game I have won all 5 very important even battles against him, this is truly epic! Waiting for him to get his lottery ticket then we will have one for the ages

[Mawpawk]

an epically long game as denied took us 2 indust! his french netted 7cog and oracle 3pop thebes for a hellish start for my mongols bar the fact i did get 100gld by 3000bc but no a.i cities, we had a whole ton of land air and sea battles,BS fleets and Bombers where the mario gods shone a big thumbs up for denieds , im pretty sure GBing millitary complex gave me the edge 2 stay in the game and likewise for denied and Eitc but a nice dirty nuke from my team sealed the deal, a big comeback for our friends the mongols. and i still think they are better than the french....is there any ONE ELSE!?(troy)

[ITZ DENI3D]

an epically long game as denied took us 2 indust! his french netted 7cog and oracle 3pop thebes for a hellish start for my mongols bar the fact i did get 100gld by 3000bc but no a.i cities, we had a whole ton of land air and sea battles,BS fleets and Bombers where the mario gods shone a big thumbs up for denieds , im pretty sure GBing millitary complex gave me the edge 2 stay in the game and likewise for denied and Eitc but a nice dirty nuke from my team sealed the deal, a big comeback for our friends the mongols. and i still think they are better than the french....is there any ONE ELSE!?(troy)

Mongols still suck! For FRANCE!! I would say what kept you in the game was getting that GS for industrial, I was 1 turn from teching it... That was a first for me, the whole game I didn't get 1 scientist, very strange... Also the overflow of GP you had from the AI actually turned out to be better for you, if you would've taken out the ai you very well could've lost that game, lol the irony of civ

[JackHall2003]

From the league thread: -

ok just throwing out some ideas for future themes back when I played player matches with "rules" to change the pace or length of the game

jesus rule: no attacking each other until year 0

alone at last: no attacking each other until the AI is taken out completely.

I like both these ideas, could be fun.

1st to non domination victory, no attacking of cap allowed but city attacks are ok

I think this just ends up with whomever would win a normal domination victory, well, dominating and doing whatever they want anyway choking the other player?

MEGA city: no making of additional cities, 100g settler needs to be placed in your cap, taking of AI cap and cities is ok for expansion (makes the placement of your cap all important, I see greece, japan, and egypt being powerhouses in this challenge)

Never really tried it so can't comment.

Ancient Wars: cannot research past ancient. obviously you cannot help getting tech from taking cities but if you do you cannot use any of the tech earned past 4 tech. I see spain and england as powerhouses in this one

Some of the most fun games I've played have gone well into the AD's just constantly battling back and forth with legions. Great games if it happens naturally, could be worth a shot enforcing it.

[JackHall2003]

Also meant to add - Not sure the league is the right place to test out bending the rules too much? but at least all players are in the same boat.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Also meant to add - Not sure the league is the right place to test out bending the rules too much? but at least all players are in the same boat.

Some of those sound fun but I dont think Ill be adding the megacity option. I dont mind variations with themes to keep things interesting like the jesus rule but I dont want to throw anybody into a scenario in league play where they dont have any strategies for the situation. Like the one city rule.

[Digitalpackrat]

Just say no to quadrapeds: horses and knights are banned... not sure about kt or free horses from barbs but I think sell them unless u wait and get canon from kt

Scenario: non host choice no artifacts are allowsed to be grabbed since they do not move

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. Forces a non dom victory

World wars: war is only permissable during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. Forces a non dom victory

Ha.....
I WILL take you and all the ais out by 1000BC.....maybe Ill schedule this for my non-conference week against you

World wars: war is only permissable during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad

This one definitely sounds cool to me.....but I would say atleast 3 maybe four seperate years of world war.......spread out WWI and WWII and do a short time at the end for WWIII.......does this mean no threatening the ai for gold early

Does anyone else in the league have an opinion.

[ITZ DENI3D]

Does anyone else in the league have an opinion.

Nope. We just do what we're told

[MultiPlayaBeast]

Just say no to quadrapeds: horses and knights are banned... not sure about kt or free horses from barbs but I think sell them unless u wait and get canon from kt

Scenario: non host choice no artifacts are allowsed to be grabbed since they do not move

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. Forces a non dom victory

World wars: war is only permissable during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad

You excel at making these ideas!

[JackHall2003]

Does anyone else in the league have an opinion.

Well I'm not in the league but I'll give mine anyway since it's like pulling teeth trying to arrange these things.

I think it sounds really cool. So many things to consider as the war year approaches - do you have a galley full of troops ready to spring on your opponent? do you set up to let them attack you and hope to wipe out their force? concentrate on taking a few ai caps? Decisions, decisions. Just gotta hope you come out the other end with more cities than you started with.

Shorter more concentrated periods of war I think would be better, but then it's nothing to do with me!

[Digitalpackrat]

You excel at making these ideas!

Thanks Multi, do any of these sound interesting and/or worth adding to the league? many of these I just came up with so the details on them need to be fleshed out. I will re post all of them here and add a little extra thought into a few of them

rule changes that force you to come up with a new strategy, a number of these would allow the game to be competitive past the initial 20 turns since AI attacking is out in them or attacking the AI takes quite a bit longer

jesus rule: no attacking each other until year 0

alone at last: no attacking each other until the AI is taken out completely. I can see agressive vs expansion civs doing well depending on AI placement.

Pacifist: 1st to non domination victory, no attacking of cap allowed but city attacks are ok after a certain year say 500ad

MEGA city: no making of additional cities, 100g settler needs to be placed in your cap, taking of AI cap and cities is ok for expansion (makes the placement of your cap all important, I see greece, japan, and egypt being powerhouses in this challenge)
[honestly I can only remember playing this once and it really wasn't fun. I threw it in there just because I played it]

Ancient Wars: cannot research past ancient. obviously you cannot help getting tech from taking cities but if you do you cannot use any of the tech earned past 4 tech. I see spain, germany, and england as powerhouses in this one

Just say no to quadrupeds: horses and knights are banned... not sure about kt or free horses from barbs but I think sell them unless u wait and get canon from kt. I see Arabs, germans, spain good here. (germans can upgrade elites to knights but use them in their territory only for defense)

Scenario: non host choice no artifacts are allowsed to be grabbed since they do not move

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. We could make this earlier. Forces a non dom victory

World wars: war is only permissible during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad. You are not allowed to declare war any other time including on the AI but if the AI declares war on you you may take them out or bully them for tech/money. (people know how to manipulate the AI and what it will and will not declare war over)

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Thanks Multi, do any of these sound interesting and/or worth adding to the league? many of these I just came up with so the details on them need to be fleshed out. I will re post all of them here and add a little extra thought into a few of them

rule changes that force you to come up with a new strategy, a number of these would allow the game to be competitive past the initial 20 turns since AI attacking is out in them or attacking the AI takes quite a bit longer

jesus rule: no attacking each other until year 0

alone at last: no attacking each other until the AI is taken out completely. I can see agressive vs expansion civs doing well depending on AI placement.

Pacifist: 1st to non domination victory, no attacking of cap allowed but city attacks are ok after a certain year say 500ad

MEGA city: no making of additional cities, 100g settler needs to be placed in your cap, taking of AI cap and cities is ok for expansion (makes the placement of your cap all important, I see greece, japan, and egypt being powerhouses in this challenge)
[honestly I can only remember playing this once and it really wasn't fun. I threw it in there just because I played it]

Ancient Wars: cannot research past ancient. obviously you cannot help getting tech from taking cities but if you do you cannot use any of the tech earned past 4 tech. I see spain, germany, and england as powerhouses in this one

Just say no to quadrupeds: horses and knights are banned... not sure about kt or free horses from barbs but I think sell them unless u wait and get canon from kt. I see Arabs, germans, spain good here. (germans can upgrade elites to knights but use them in their territory only for defense)

Scenario: non host choice no artifacts are allowsed to be grabbed since they do not move

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. We could make this earlier. Forces a non dom victory

World wars: war is only permissible during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad. You are not allowed to declare war any other time including on the AI but if the AI declares war on you you may take them out or bully them for tech/money. (people know how to manipulate the AI and what it will and will not declare war over)

Thanks for the feedback DP....I have to be honest though Im a little dissappointed to say the least......I have put a lot of effort into creating this league; not only making it fun but with updates and game explanations and when I ask one simple favor from the competitors(Ive asked for feedback on this 3 seperate times), only one person gave me any feedback, and he is one of my close friends. Come on guys if I ask for feedback lets here it Ive dedicated a lot of time here and if I ask for a bit of help or feeback I dont think thats too much to ask.

[dukeblue1987]

Thanks Multi, do any of these sound interesting and/or worth adding to the league? many of these I just came up with so the details on them need to be fleshed out. I will re post all of them here and add a little extra thought into a few of them

rule changes that force you to come up with a new strategy, a number of these would allow the game to be competitive past the initial 20 turns since AI attacking is out in them or attacking the AI takes quite a bit longer

jesus rule: no attacking each other until year 0

Works great. Although I would say no attacking the AI either.

alone at last: no attacking each other until the AI is taken out completely. I can see agressive vs expansion civs doing well depending on AI placement.

Ehh. Could be lame if I can choke you off and you can't attack me.

Pacifist: 1st to non domination victory, no attacking of cap allowed but city attacks are ok after a certain year say 500ad

I think you can get a econ victory before 500 ad. Or at least close. Kind of cool idea though.

MEGA city: no making of additional cities, 100g settler needs to be placed in your cap, taking of AI cap and cities is ok for expansion (makes the placement of your cap all important, I see greece, japan, and egypt being powerhouses in this challenge)
[honestly I can only remember playing this once and it really wasn't fun. I threw it in there just because I played it]

Boring to me at least.

Ancient Wars: cannot research past ancient. obviously you cannot help getting tech from taking cities but if you do you cannot use any of the tech earned past 4 tech. I see spain, germany, and england as powerhouses in this one

Could be Ok but accidentally getting to 5 techs would kill you due to incrased rush costs.

Just say no to quadrupeds: horses and knights are banned... not sure about kt or free horses from barbs but I think sell them unless u wait and get canon from kt. I see Arabs, germans, spain good here. (germans can upgrade elites to knights but use them in their territory only for defense)

I've always thought this rule just slows the game down.

Scenario: non host choice no artifacts are allowsed to be grabbed since they do not move

Starfish map?

Let there be peace: all war ends at year zero. We could make this earlier. Forces a non dom victory

Nah, seems boring

World wars: war is only permissible during specific spans of years say 2000-0bc and 1500-2000ad. You are not allowed to declare war any other time including on the AI but if the AI declares war on you you may take them out or bully them for tech/money. (people know how to manipulate the AI and what it will and will not declare war over)

This is a great idea. Might need some tweaking of years but definately cool.

Responses in green text.

Another idea is that you must settle in place and work gold for the first 25 turns. You then can start actually playing and you have 100g settler so your starting position is less important and getting techs from barbs is less crappy. Also, AI's are much tougher to take out. I actually think this would be a cool idea for a tournament. Simple rule and takes a lot of luck out of the game (in theory).

[danthechan]

Thanks Jack, its quite an effort to run something so massive......anyways I would like to hear ideas on the other grudge match candidates.....I think im leaning toward rome india instead of china zulu for week 7.....mainly because in recent weeks we seem to have decided china zulu without a doubt....

i appreciate your efforts grizz. they may not be some of the best civ matchups but i like some of the historic grudges between countries. france vs russia for napolean, germany vs england (although germany fought everybody, but thats the best.) america vs england, japan, or germany would be historically relevant, but not good civ matchups. maybe forcing america to sell its gp for 15 gold would make it closer.
spain spent nearly 800 years struggling to free the iberian from muslim rule. spain v. arabs would be a good matchup all the way around.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Thanks for the respones guys....I really like the world wars idea...what do you guys think would be good times for war?
What if there was a quick war representing the ancient conquests from like 3200-2700BC......then WWI around 1500-100AD and then WWII around 1400AD?

I think some of dans ideas are cool too. Spain vs arabs and france vs russia might be good grudge matches if anybody can second that....I predict russia beats that one unless people take advantage of the early GP......hhhmmm I just thought of a possible combination that might be relevant....a USA v China grudge match cmbined with the technology victory requirement(non dom)...would China turn into the power here? Its historically relevant to present day. Hey and since you like the historical stuff dan Im thinking we might do a Historic grudge match series part of the season. We could include the Roman vs India one in this as well Im thinking it could represent the Roman-Persian wars right? Although I guess the Arabs were involved in that one a bit too but romearab doesnt seem very fun.

Dukes 25 turns rule sounds cool. All other rules owuld be the same but you would start with 100g and a settler as well a tougher ais who might already have some tech bonuses. Is there a scenario that mimics this with the gold?

Jesus rule might be cool. I think there might be too many variables to mae ancient wars fair. tech from a barb would make it severely unfair due to unit cost since its all about war...

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Ok I have a quick question for you guys I need 1 or two more grudge match ideas to finish my idea for the civ leage themes.

Ive thought of these options:
-Russo-Japanese war
-30 years war(spain england-spain france is too lopsided)
-german v spain or v england for spanish civil war or world war
-Persian war-greece vs india or rome vs india-greece india is more historically relevant but rome-india is a better match
-could also do rome-england

Any opinions on which 2 of these would be your favorites??

[GrizzleyTigers4]

I dont know why I keep thinking rome is part of the persian war.....packrat said also we could do greece vs egypt

[Digitalpackrat]

for historical accuracy and since we already have india vs rome
I vote for
greece vs india for the persian war,
russia vs france,
spain vs england,

or we could have greece vs egypt during alexander the greats rule. I prefer playing with india but egypt hasn't really gotten into the league yet so i may throw more weight towards that matchup.

[JackHall2003]

Oh Ive been too polite so far.....pretend Im your friendly civ league "Dictator" from here on...

No more discussion....Its friday and people are still complaining about this week....Ive been asking for tips all season so too little to late fellas.

Well said Grizz!

I forfeit my games to Packrat... Just don't want to try it and I got other reasons but I don't want to take away from anyone else.

Maniac ~~~ He wants to forfeit his games since he does not like the theme.

To give up without even giving it a try is downright ignorant. Unfortunate indeed, REM.

I haven't posted much lately, but I still follow with interest. Keep up the good work Grizz.