Stronger in H2H: Zulu or China?

[Legatus]

Since this was brought up in the Zulu v. USA thread....

We'll only consider H2H. I think there is little doubt China has the advantage in FFA.

As for the matchup, I have a similar viewpoint to this matchup as the Zulu v. USA

Zulu is stronger in the first 15 or so turns, though I think China is better able to fight off that super-early Zulu rush than the USA or most other civs (due to the plus one population)

China is stronger afterwards. Of course, it's not nearly as pronounced as USA.

For the Zulu to win, they have to either take out China early, or be able to gain a huge advantage through the Impi rush. If it's an even contest by the time the Impi rush is obsoleted, then China (and most other civs, IMO) is going to win.

The question becomes, which happens more often: the huge early Zulu advantage, or China surviving and still being in the game?

I'm inclined to say China, but I haven't been in enough of these matches to really provide evidence.

[sdu754]

I voted China, I actually think the Zulu match up better against Americans in ancient than China, because China can do the most with nothing, whereas americans can struggle if they're starved for gold.

[dukeblue1987]

China hands down. Zulu might be better against America and Mongols (who cares?). China is better against the other 14 civs.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

China hands down. Zulu might be better against America and Mongols (who cares?). China is better against the other 14 civs.

Freaking lie man... but thats your opinion though and it stays funny. GOOD Zulu players can easily handle China... People stay talking what who can do what but not proving it... constantly!

[sdu754]

Freaking lie man... but thats your opinion though and it stays funny. GOOD Zulu players can easily handle China... People stay talking what who can do what but not proving it... constantly!

True, but good chinese players can easily handle Zulu. China is a perfect counter to Zulu because they can do the most with the least. Zulu may be better the first 10-15 turns, but once china starts getting horsearmies out the Zulu are in trouble.

[JackHall2003]

I vote China. Don't think I'd even go the horse army route with impis running around. If the Chinese can survive the early rush (and they are probably the best at doing so) and start planting 4 pop cities in republic, it's pretty much game over.

[dukeblue1987]

Freaking lie man... but thats your opinion though and it stays funny. GOOD Zulu players can easily handle China... People stay talking what who can do what but not proving it... constantly!

Good Zulu players can't handle good China players.... We can play 10 games and see who comes out on top.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

Good Zulu players can't handle good China players.... We can play 10 games and see who comes out on top.

You never around to do so... There is no point. We got tourneys to finish and you hardly able to do that. People who vote should step to challenges.

[Mawpawk]

You never around to do so... There is no point. We got tourneys to finish and you hardly able to do that. People who vote should step to challenges.

we had a zulu vs china battle going not long after you joined the forums...from memory we got 2 2 china wins and 1 zulu, so if ya wanna finish the 10 match anytime then we tango

[MultiPlayaBeast]

we had a zulu vs china battle going not long after you joined the forums...from memory we got 2 2 china wins and 1 zulu, so if ya wanna finish the 10 match anytime then we tango

We can finish it... TODAY! And I don't remember you getting 2 wins and I got only got 1.

[dukeblue1987]

You never around to do so... There is no point. We got tourneys to finish and you hardly able to do that. People who vote should step to challenges.

That is ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ and you know it. I make 100% of the games scheduled. Just because I don't play my xbox 8 hours a day like you doesn't mean we can't schedule a few hours to play. You are the only person who has a problem with my schedule. If you want to play a game just give me a time and date. It seems to work for everyone else.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Oh I hate to say it but I have Multis back on this one. I always used to feel differently because I feel like I beat 90% of zulu players in ranked. There is a problem with you guys argument though(and my original perspective)...you keep saying a good china player could handle a zulu player any day but you dont say anything about the skill level of the zulu player. I can almost guarantee(because duke is so confident in his own skills) that he would also argue that he could win most of the games in a Zulu (him) vs china(anybody else) as well. So heres the deal....what it comes down to is how the first 20 turns play out. I dont care how good you are if I am the zulu and I find your cap before you get a HA out I can either totally screw you over or walk past you and steal all of your huts. With an average zulu player this is easy....expand like crazy and out tech them and eventually win.....with a good zulu player this isnt possible because he will own the entire map and not give you the room to expand in the first place. Also the way we play today doesnt work well against the zulus.....walking your settlers to the center of the map will put you 2-3 turns away from them half the time.

Yes china is immensely more powerful late in the game...but lets be honest.....the game doesnt start late in the game it starts at 4000bc

[dukeblue1987]

Very good post Grizz, but China is better. Yes, the Zulu can totally dominate the map even against China. But this doesn't happen every game. Here's an example. My last 2 Zulu games against Mawpawk I lost. I got a tech from my first hut on both. The Zulu are not good if they don't get a 1 flag barb with gold. Island start? Forget about it. 10-20% of games will be a bad start or island start. 1.5-0 China just from the odds. China can still beat Zulu from an island.

Really, China just needs to survive to get a barracks and vet legions. By then, there is nothing the Zulu can do to stop them. China can get Nav first, expand to the islands, build half cost libraries (not a bad idea vs Zulu) and tech industrializaiton. Game over. I'm saying 65/35 China if both players are elite.

The fact is that the Zulu bonuses do NOTHING helpful after China can defend against the Impi's. China doesn't even need a lot of cities to be effective due to the extra pop and half cost libraries.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Very good post Grizz, but China is better. Yes, the Zulu can totally dominate the map even against China. But this doesn't happen every game. Here's an example. My last 2 Zulu games against Mawpawk I lost. I got a tech from my first hut on both. The Zulu are not good if they don't get a 1 flag barb with gold. Island start? Forget about it. 10-20% of games will be a bad start or island start. 1.5-0 China just from the odds. China can still beat Zulu from an island.

.

Yea thats exactly my point I think....how if zulu gets tec from early barbs they are screwed, but if a good zulu player finds china early they are screwed.....basically I thin it could be argued they are almost even....because the first 20 turns here...maybe even ten......are so important....even much more important than in every other game....

although in forum matches the island start usually doesnt matter because of the restart clause....china can beat zulu from an island if they find gold but if they dont its over unless the zulu player is poor.....mainly because the Zulu player gets 7c+ amount of gold fro the map plus ais. Unless the chinese find gold they simply cant keep up unless you are magic.....having said that....the best start for china is a huge island with one other civ....then the zulu are in trouble....

[newsgothic]

I still think the Zulu are the top civ. The first 10-20 turns are the most important, and that's where they shine. But then, I don't see a lot of USA or china players. There sure are a lot of good Zulus on the ps3 though.

[Star428]

I still think the Zulu are the top civ. The first 10-20 turns are the most important, and that's where they shine. But then, I don't see a lot of USA or china players. There sure are a lot of good Zulus on the ps3 though.

LOL. Maybe amongst the average ranked ps3 players zulu are best but with players who know what they're doing? Hell no.

[sdu754]

I still think the Zulu are the top civ. The first 10-20 turns are the most important, and that's where they shine. But then, I don't see a lot of USA or china players. There sure are a lot of good Zulus on the ps3 though.

I agree Zulu are strong, But Americans and Chinese are stronger. If you look at the top of the PS3 leaderboards, I believe most of the players are China and America, its been a while since I've been on though.

[newsgothic]

I don't know either... the PS3 top ten never changes. For all I know, those were all in place back before people started settler walking. All I know is that I face quite a few Zulu and many of them are far, far from average.

[Mawpawk]

We can finish it... TODAY! And I don't remember you getting 2 wins and I got only got 1.

yes your right it was 1=1 then i had a power cut(probly thought i was wining)

[dukeblue1987]

4 games against MPB.
Me (China) = 3
MPB (Zulu) = 1

Best game lasted till Modern. Beast got a walk in on Spanish for Nav, a GB for EITC and also got 7 cities mid game. Didn't matter though. I hammered out Sams castle and was first to both money techs. A couple cruiser fleets later and the game was pretty much over. Fleet + Fundy + Sam's Castle = hard to defend.

More games to come. I'm still thinking 65/35. Maybe 60/40. But China is definitely better. So much production. So much early science. Irrigation almost guaranteed. So versatile. I didn't build a horse in any game so far.

[sdu754]

I don't know either... the PS3 top ten never changes. For all I know, those were all in place back before people started settler walking. All I know is that I face quite a few Zulu and many of them are far, far from average.

When I was on a few months ago, people weren't really playing as America or China. Zulu was most common followed by Aztec, then the occasional Egypt player and every once in a while another civ.

[newsgothic]

Well that is some good data, Duke. I hear MPB is one of the better Zulu players. But then, you're one of the better players, period.

[dukeblue1987]

5-2. Should have won the last game as I got a crazy good start. Started talking with my girlfriend on facebook and maybe a couple bonehead oh ☺☺☺☺ plays. Oh well. We've both outplayed each other 1 game now. MPB did get SoC for a key artist and well as AW for fundy though... still. I should have won, no excuse for that one. Shouldn't have let my attention sway.

Forgot to add: well played that last game Beast

[Jackoneill]

China hands down IMO.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

4 games against MPB.
Me (China) = 3
MPB (Zulu) = 1

Best game lasted till Modern. Beast got a walk in on Spanish for Nav, a GB for EITC and also got 7 cities mid game. Didn't matter though. I hammered out Sams castle and was first to both money techs. A couple cruiser fleets later and the game was pretty much over. Fleet + Fundy + Sam's Castle = hard to defend.

More games to come. I'm still thinking 65/35. Maybe 60/40. But China is definitely better. So much production. So much early science. Irrigation almost guaranteed. So versatile. I didn't build a horse in any game so far.

Our modern game was something else. I did everything potentially right with Zulu against him. Navi was a plus, Eitc and 7cities but it came a bit late when I needed to use it for pressure early. So instead it went towards building settlers. Duke is right with one thing though... barracks and legions saved him big time. I came with a legion attack with Zulu but didn't bring the correct defense. I would have surely harassed him largely let I had defense but once Duke got going... he got going. I could have... went after money techs but I didn't... going after my usual strat with Zulu for gold.

Some 2 of the games I quit early because one I lost 4.5 to 2.5 (classic) but Duke would have flipped it anyway. Another game, I should have easily dominated his China but he found 7cog and one very decisive boat battle that if I won... 2 impi fundy warrior armies would have been harassing his island cities... good games.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

5-2. Should have won the last game as I got a crazy good start. Started talking with my girlfriend on facebook and maybe a couple bonehead oh ☺☺☺☺ plays. Oh well. We've both outplayed each other 1 game now. MPB did get SoC for a key artist and well as AW for fundy though... still. I should have won, no excuse for that one. Shouldn't have let my attention sway.

Forgot to add: well played that last game Beast

Thanks for the compliment... my back was truly against the wall man. I have to somehow win the 3 last games for our battle to be a tie. His start was truly great, even without him getting 7cog right next to him on a island I played my butt off to win that one and if Duke payed closer attention he may have defended better and played a bit smarter to ensure his victory.

[dukeblue1987]

Thanks for the compliment... my back was truly against the wall man. I have to somehow win the 3 last games for our battle to be a tie. His start was truly great, even without him getting 7cog right next to him on a island I played my butt off to win that one and if Duke payed closer attention he may have defended better and played a bit smarter to ensure his victory.

I don't think I got 7 cities that game. I did get 100g by 3500 though!

[dukeblue1987]

We can finish the final 3 games tonight. I can make it around 5 PM CT. Good?

(Does anyone else get server errors when they try to edit posts? So annoying, I feel like I'm always double posting.)

[JackHall2003]

(Does anyone else get server errors when they try to edit posts? So annoying, I feel like I'm always double posting.)

No

......

[Zefelius]

It would be fun to watch these games.

[dukeblue1987]

It would be fun to watch these games.

If you want to come do all the work I'll let you sleep on my couch

[MorteEterna]

Chinese can build warriors and take a capital (no need of horsemen armies), so after that the battle would be even (in the first 20 turns maybe).

After the first turns, zulu can't do anything with fast warriors against china, since it's got a lot of population, production, etc... As duke said, it's versatile.

[dukeblue1987]

Series finish 8-2. Pretty much just tried to survive 10 turns and then just let my extra population dominate the game. If he did surround me I could just turtle with 4-5 cities, get to half cost libraries, and then get a key tech like Nav or Steam.

By the way, I didn't horserush in any game.

[newsgothic]

Duke, do you think horses are a bad idea against the Zulu in general, or just with the Chinese?

[dukeblue1987]

Duke, do you think horses are a bad idea against the Zulu in general, or just with the Chinese?

Too many variables to say one way or the other. But if you're Russia, for example, horses are likely all you've got.

In general you want a way to kill the Impi's or a way to choke off your land. Look for 1 tile chokes, or hills to attack from. It's no question that a decent Zulu start in the hands of a good player is near impossible to beat when you are a crappy civ. With China, you just have so many options that there is usually a good solution.

[Zefelius]

Now of course you know the above games don't settle it. What if Duke's Zulu won 8-2 against MPB? Then we would know the domination was due to Duke being elite. If we can find a great China player beat Duke's Zulu, then I think we're pretty close to settling this.

[dukeblue1987]

Now of course you know the above games don't settle it. What if Duke's Zulu won 8-2 against MPB? Then we would know the domination was due to Duke being elite. If we can find a great China player beat Duke's Zulu, then I think we're pretty close to settling this.

We could try but MBP's Zulu is likely better than mine. I think if we played more games it would likely be 65/35. He got techs from his first hut about 4 games. This normally would only happen maybe 2 games. I also got quite a few strong starts, although they are always very frequent with China.

[sdu754]

We could try but MBP's Zulu is likely better than mine. I think if we played more games it would likely be 65/35. He got techs from his first hut about 4 games. This normally would only happen maybe 2 games. I also got quite a few strong starts, although they are always very frequent with China.

I don't know, I get a free techs from first hut with Zulu alot.

[MorteEterna]

Building horsemen against zulu is really risky since they have the same defence/attack (horsemen's defence against impis' attack)

So I would suggest building warriors as China, even Russia can take capitals with warriors.

[REM018]

Especially do not use horsemen if you cannot get enough gold quickly or cannot reliably vet up the HA. A non-vet HA is an easy kill for impis. Vet it will be at least a coin flip if they attack. But your investment in that HA is a lot greater and you are risking 20 beakers plus 60 hammers compared to 30 hammers. And there are most likely more than one impi armies out there and they can come from various directions at your horse army.