King of Alternate Rules

[dukeblue1987]

The real point of this king is to refine the rules so that we can run a succesful tournament. Thanks to JackHall for the idea.

1. Despotism governemnt only. If you use a civ that starts with a different government, you need to switch asap (3900 bc).
2. All GP must be settled.
3. No war with the AI until 2000 bc. You can sell techs but you cannot threaten. I think this is fair because it still gives a person time to take a cap but they will need a vet horsearmy and will likely have to attack for 4-5 turns minimum (1-2 archers, 2 warriors, healing, etc). You can attack the other human player at any time.
4. No Oxford
5. No Artifacts (Atlantis is acceptable)

Horses will be allowed for now.

Best 2 of 3. King hosts game 1 and 3. Host chooses tier that each player must pick from. You can only play a civ once per challenge.

Civs Allowed (estimated civ rating out of 10 - subject to change)

Tier 1
Germans (9)
English (8)
Indians (7)
Romans (6)
Japanese (6)
Greeks (6)

Tier 2
Aztecs (5)
Mongols (5)
Arabs (4)
Russians (3)
French (2)

Civs Not Allowed
USA - OP
China - OP
Zulu - Might consider. They can still dominate the map and take all the gold.
Egypt - Very random with rules that try to prevent randomness. CoR start would be OP.
Spanish - OP as they don't need republic to expand fast.

[dukeblue1987]

Also, I could probably make it on tonight if someone wishes to challenge me!

[JackHall2003]

I'm up for a few games of this, gonna get my Group 6 games out the way first though.

I agree with your civs not allowed. I also think Japan will be pretty good (7 or 8 per your other rankings)

[HydroDragon]

Why do you rate romans and greeks so highly if they can't use their governments? Aztecs are better than both of these without their governments I think.

[dukeblue1987]

Why do you rate romans and greeks so highly if they can't use their governments? Aztecs are better than both of these without their governments I think.

I still like the Romans mainly because of the 1/2 off wonder cost. Games are going to be longer. EITC and Leo's workshop are both very powerful and realistic as Romans. Half cost roads can help too. Also if they find a cow they can still pump out cities early.

Greeks... not really sure. You are right in that they do not deserve a 7. The courthouse will be more useful as I think you will see less but larger cities. They are probably a 5 or 6 along with the Aztecs.

Either way they are just best guesses.

[JackHall2003]

Half price libraries could be useful for the Greeks.

Aztecs - Sure, they are stunted a little by not getting the advantage of a walk-in, but still a quick HA or two for early domination. (other than auto-heal, I can't even think of what bonus they get? The spanish 50% gold thing?)

I suppose that's what this is for though, tweak things for a proper tourney.

[dukeblue1987]

Half price libraries could be useful for the Greeks.

Aztecs - Sure, they are stunted a little by not getting the advantage of a walk-in, but still a quick HA or two for early domination.

I suppose that's what this is for though, tweak things for a proper tourney.

Libraries! That's why I put them up there originally.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

But this isn't civ anymore you have stripped 50 percent of the mechanics away from the game.....

[JackHall2003]

But this isn't civ anymore you have stripped 50 percent of the mechanics away from the game.....

Yes, but we have king titles and various other tournies, it's just something to try.

I think we all like the games where it's kinda level and we are fighting to and fro with legions/ knights/ whatever on a nearly even keel.

At the moment maybe I get that classic game 2 out of 10, Hope this will increase that ratio - who knows?

[dukeblue1987]

But this isn't civ anymore you have stripped 50 percent of the mechanics away from the game.....

Well the point of this is to try and take away some of the luck based factors of the game and make the outcomes more skill and decision making dependant. Competitive organizations such as MLG do the same thing.

If anything, it is just a change of pace. Maybe we like it, maybe we don't.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Well I do like the change of pace for the exception of no government changes.....although there will be much less comeback victories in this tourney......you get the lead you can almost coast to the end....

[dukeblue1987]

Well I do like the change of pace for the exception of no government changes.....although there will be much less comeback victories in this tourney......you get the lead you can almost coast to the end....

What are your thoughts on just banning republic? That is the real biggie. I kind of like the Fundy/Demo matchup where one player is attacking and the other is trying to grab an important tech like steam.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Demo/Fundy is always fun with fair players.......what if instead of banning CoL there was a very limited time window in which you could use it......completely playing into the strategy portion of the game......

[GrizzleyTigers4]

By window I mean like 5 consecutive turns per player.....not a set year like 1000-500BC

[dukeblue1987]

By window I mean like 5 consecutive turns per player.....not a set year like 1000-500BC

Ancient only? We should make it as easy to monitor as possible. And by limiting it to ancient is really makes a player decide if it is even work it at all.

[JackHall2003]

Ancient only? We should make it as easy to monitor as possible.

Sometimes it's impossible though if you get tech from barbs

[dukeblue1987]

Sometimes it's impossible though if you get tech from barbs

That sucks

[GrizzleyTigers4]

Ancient only? We should make it as easy to monitor as possible. And by limiting it to ancient is really makes a player decide if it is even work it at all.

I need more information to comment on that......you cant attack the ai till 2000BC....what about your opponent?

[ScottieX]

Sometimes it's impossible though if you get tech from barbs

yeah - id vote just ban it at the start of the game - for that sort of reason. we are trying to take luck out and that would be just adding it back in.

But I dont see a major issue with allowing government changes after a certain date. Seems that is a part of the game I wouldnt want to remove entirely.

Im guessing I'll be targeting GL in this version of the game

[MultiPlayaBeast]

Demo/Fundy is always fun with fair players.......what if instead of banning CoL there was a very limited time window in which you could use it......completely playing into the strategy portion of the game......

Interesting concept I believe will keep this fun. No governments takes what I really enjoy out of civ.

[dukeblue1987]

yeah - id vote just ban it at the start of the game - for that sort of reason. we are trying to take luck out and that would be just adding it back in.

But I dont see a major issue with allowing government changes after a certain date. Seems that is a part of the game I wouldnt want to remove entirely.

Im guessing I'll be targeting GL in this version of the game

That could be an option. No government changes before 0. Greeks would be interesting...

[JackHall2003]

Just played duke using the new rules. My Japanese vs his Indians.

Initial thoughts - It was a pretty fun game and to all intents and purposes, I'd say the rules worked well as a leveller.

I had a pretty slow start and i'm sure duke would have crushed me under normal circumstances, but this gave me a litle time to make a game of it. It does seem painfully slow at the start though with the ai untouchable for 20 turns, But it worked out the Mongols were a choke between us.

I was at a loss regarding a tech path (we played Despotism only), so worked gold most of the game. I took out the mongols just after the time limit and them Madrid for nav soon after. This is what saved me. I went on the attack with a fleet some legions and my second HA, duke came at me with a galleon and cat army. I kept feeding him single archers (a mistake as I upgraded his army).

We traded a few cities but the the close (and not so close) odds were going my way and duke called it. I don't think he was out by any means, but I didn't see the rest of his empire?

All in all, a fun game. so 1 out of 1 has worked so far.

EDIT to add... By the way... I think 1 win against duke should be enough to be crowned a King

[dukeblue1987]

Gah I typed up my side and got an error when I went to post it and lost it.

Great game. I think Jack outplayed me and there were many times when I was at a loss of what to do. A lot of battles took place. Battles odds definitely were not in my favor but I think Jack had the advantage either way. I thought it was cool that Jack still took 2 caps even though they were very late due to the rules. Made me feel like I had a great chance not horserushing because I was guaranteed Irrigation. Him getting navigation really saved the day for him. I think I could have got some cat armies to his cities before he could defend if he had just taken a normal civ. I would recommend these rules to anyone that wants a longer game with more strategic battles.

And sure Jack, you can be king I have to play prey tomorrow for a tourney game and won't likely be back online until Sunday or Monday.

[President Snow]

This certainly sounds interesting, been playing mostly by myself. I'd love to play with other experienced players, hoping that this is on XBL and not PSN.
If XBL my gamertag is Joker The Crane, just tell me when and I'd be glad to join in (if I can)

[Jackoneill]

This certainly sounds interesting, been playing mostly by myself. I'd love to play with other experienced players, hoping that this is on XBL and not PSN.
If XBL my gamertag is Joker The Crane, just tell me when and I'd be glad to join in (if I can)

Welcome to the forums President Snow
The third welcome today.

[ScottieX]

Yeay Go Jack!!!
KING OF Alternate rules !!

[JackHall2003]

there were many times when I was at a loss of what to do.

It's hard to convey how difficult this actually was (I mean the rules are simple enough, just that it goes against everything we are used to). I think we both kinda just fudged along. I was overly cautious, worrying about fundy legions coming for me and you nearly forfeited by using the GH. lol

The game was 1 hr 20 min, i'm uploading in two parts. Think you'll be annoyed when you see it that you didn't come wipe me out

[dukeblue1987]

It's hard to convey how difficult this actually was (I mean the rules are simple enough, just that it goes against everything we are used to). I think we both kinda just fudged along. I was overly cautious, worrying about fundy legions coming for me and you nearly forfeited by using the GH. lol

The game was 1 hr 20 min, i'm uploading in two parts. Think you'll be annoyed when you see it that you didn't come wipe me out

Nice. My plan was to come at you with cats and galleons but I was already pretty "pot committed" when you took nav from the Spanish (I didn't know they were in the game). Then all of a sudden I have a vet galleon fleet at my cities with no way to defend! I should have tried to scrap together my own fleet and roll the dice on a 50/50 but I decided to just try to hold out with archer armies and take your cities. Turns out we took each others cities but my original cities were way better than yours

Maybe I should have built the barracks in the city closer to you than up by the Chinese. Not sure if it would have made a difference.

[JackHall2003]

Turns out we took each others cities but my original cities were way better than yours

I did hand over a nice Karakorum though, eh?

The Damn upload has just failed after 3 hrs. joy.

[President Snow]

Glad to be welcomed

[JackHall2003]

been playing mostly by myself.

You mean, as in single player? Have you played multiplayer?

[JackHall2003]

I'd like to see a bit more R&D on this.

Over the last few days I've played 11 'forum games' (5 x cup, 3 x RR and 3 King games), and to be honest, none of them have lived up to be 'classics'. (I think my opponents would agree). don't get me wrong, there has been good and smart play in them, but just not the games you come away from thinking 'wow'.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, and If I was a little better, I could create more of those 'classic games'?

Maybe it's just coincidence that our 1 attempt at this turned into a really good game? My Rome vs Glenneyre Russians it Group 6 was another classic recently, buts that's like 2 out of 16 or so games. Now, I've had many great games against forum members (notably Scottie and Mawpawk, becase I think I've played them more), but they do seem too few and far between.

Even looking at the 10 games between Multi/Duke (Zulu/China), it reads as if one of these was a truly great game?

What's your recent experience? Your last 10 'forum games', how many will you remember as 'classic'.