OMG, another stupid DRM for another Bioshock game. Infinite's DRM stinks.

[mechgouki]

Just when I thought that the DRM for the Bioshock games couldn't get any worse, they had to prove me wrong.

Bioshock Infinite retail box is using Steam. As if it were a digital download.

If I wanted a steam game, wouldn't it be better for me to get from Steam itself, instead of buying it physically off a shelf?

For some people, Steam is the best thing for their gaming needs.

For me, Steam is a nightmare. Why the hell should a physical copy of the game need Steam? Having steam on a retail box makes the discs entirely worthless.

Why the hell couldn't they have just stick to a bloody disc check? -_-'

I bought these games from 2kgame on original.
Prey (great game imho)
Bioshock (I didn't read the fine print about online activation.)
Borderlands (haven't opened)
Bioshock 2 (have online activation, and GFWL screws up transferring saves, but still acceptable)

But bloody steam is making me NOT buy Bioshock Infinite. Shouldn't we have a goddamn choice whether we want to use steam or not?

-------------

Update:
First off, I'll like to say that I bought original for Bioshock 1 and 2.

And, I actually pirated Bioshock 2 first, for the sake of testing it. Once I was satisfied that the DRM was no overboard, THEN I proceeded to buy the game.

To me, pirating a game is extremely easy. Many groups release the cracked games, and getting them is easy. But I don't always pirate. Why? I'll explain.

First, because piracy is so damn easy, what we should be looking at isn't why people pirate games. It is why people DON'T pirate games.

There are 2 main reasons why people don't pirate games.
1) They are ignorant to piracy, or do not have the means to do so.
2) They choose not to.

1) Some people aren't aware that it is possible to pirate a game. Others couldn't download using bittorrents etc.

2) I belong in this category. I don't pirate because I choose not to. I am too proud, so any game I play, I have to own it literally. Others may simply choose not too, because they want to support the developers, or because they know it is wrong.

In other words, most don't pirate, due to their own free will. Not because some mother ******** drm was imposed on them!!!! In fact, DRM screws legitimate users like me!

WHY THE HELL SHOULD I PAY YOU MORE MONEY TO LET YOU SCREW ME EVEN MORE?!

Using Steam on a retail box is the bloody worst DRM I can think of. You don't own the game, you merely rent it, and ask permission to play it from steam! AND DID I MENTION THE GAME BOX AND GAME DISCS ARE WORTHLESS AFTER 1ST USE?!

[wodinoneeyex]

Will be pretty bad if it makes you login every time you want to play the game.

For BS2 - the offline login never seemed to work with any consistantly and the online one always seemed to lose the 'remember name and password' function similarly usually did not work (require you to type pretty much EVERY time) ontop of the delays communicating with the servers to finally get to the point you could start playing.

BS1 with no such dim system ?? Worked every time with no delay and no bothersome login stupidity.

I though I saw on IGs forums that the WERENT going to have a per use login.

Lets see if they decide not to 'stick-it' to the players this time.

Doing it once on an install is not that bad, preferably with an integrated mechanism to tell you that there are pathces available for the game (and links to them)

[mechgouki]

I am playing Bioshock 2 now. It was pretty frustrating right at the start, but I got the profile thingy to work.

I used an online profile to save my games instead of an offline profile. The DRM for Bioshock 2 was simply in the Securom Disc check, and the online date check. The date check may be flagged by using the offline activator from the Securom support site, so overall, the DRM is still acceptable.

Bioshock Infinite however, uses Steam. Which sucks ass.

But in my honest opinion, a retail box game that use Steam, is plain pathetic bull crap.
Why?
1) The discs are bloody worthless. No one else can use those discs, and you don't need them after installation.
2) There is no resale value. I don't sell my games away, but I buy a lot of 2nd hand games. Steam makes it impossible for me to buy it from someone if the production stops.
3) If I wanted to buy a steam game, can't I just buy it online? Why the hell do I need to buy it off a shelve, when the thing is to be discarded after use anyway?

[Kirkreng]

The disc is most certainly not useless. For someone who has an awful internet connection(which many people still do) installing it from the disc is a lot faster and more convenient than downloading it from the Steam servers(which aren't that good to begin with).

And Steam on a retail disc is a form of DRM. It is supposed to protect against piracy(to be fair cracks will probably be available all around in like a week after release so in that department it is not that effective) but probably more importantly it is supposed to protect against used sales.

[rootbeertapper]

When will they learn, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

[Fugue]

When will they learn, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

Who? Publishers like it, obviously, and a LOT of gamers like it.

[rootbeertapper]

Who? Publishers like it, obviously, and a LOT of gamers like it.

Gamers crave DRM? It's A Trap!

[Fugue]

I meant who is "they"

a lot of gamers like Steam......

[rootbeertapper]

I meant who is "they"

a lot of gamers like Steam......

I am sorry that I was unclear that was not my intention.

When are companies going to learn that all DRM does is turn people over to the dark side. It will be cracked in under a month, and available on the deep web for weeks before it reaches the public sector.

[Fugue]

But isn't drm an industry response to the dark side? One wouldn't exist without the other.... Its egg before the chicken I just don't buy that argument.

Besides from a production pov digital distribution is a winner for publishers, as someone else said it wipes out 2nd hand sales, consoles will follow suit.

[rootbeertapper]

But isn't drm an industry response to the dark side? One wouldn't exist without the other.... Its egg before the chicken I just don't buy that argument.

Besides from a production pov digital distribution is a winner for publishers, as someone else said it wipes out 2nd hand sales, consoles will follow suit.

When you boast how secure something is, that is a open invite for people to crack it. You would be surprised how well behaved the internet can be when no 'challenge' is established by the DRM camps.

I am not saying piracy will cease and everyone will be lead to the promise land, heavens no, but anonymous people can be reasoned with. I personally think STEAM is one of the most non obtrusive DRM methods to date and allows play both online or offline. Most games are activated and then you never see a reminder again, unless you switch to another machine, but even then you can give that computer access to the game without having to get an additional license. All games I own on STEAM are running on a dinosaur compared to today's systems and I have never had problems that I could not resolve myself or with a simple email.
As for GFWL, well... I cant discuss that here without getting banned ;-)

[Fugue]

I personally think STEAM is one of the most non obtrusive DRM methods to date and allows play both online or offline

Agreed, no system is perfect but it's by far the best.

And yes there are ways around but that's best not discussed here... What I like about steam is it offers much more than just a system of protection for a product, never had a problem so I've got no reason to dislike it.

[Kirkreng]

When you boast how secure something is, that is a open invite for people to crack it. You would be surprised how well behaved the internet can be when no 'challenge' is established by the DRM camps.

People will simply crack it because they have no money to buy the game. Higher profile games will get cracked regardless of whether is a challenge or not.

Personally I also have absolutely no problem with Steam. It organizes my games, makes them available from anywhere, lets me buy games easily and lets me connect with my friends. While it has some issues, Steam is DRM done right. Because instead of bugging the legal costumer, pushing them towards piracy, it offers services superior to piracy. It isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but the best we have at the moment.

[mechgouki]

First off, I'll like to say that I bought original for Bioshock 1 and 2.

And, I actually pirated Bioshock 2 first, for the sake of testing it. Once I was satisfied that the DRM was no overboard, THEN I proceeded to buy the game.

To me, pirating a game is extremely easy. Many groups release the cracked games, and getting them is easy. But I don't always pirate. Why? I'll explain.

First, because piracy is so damn easy, what we should be looking at isn't why people pirate games. It is why people DON'T pirate games.

There are 2 main reasons why people don't pirate games.
1) They are ignorant to piracy, or do not have the means to do so.
2) They choose not to.

1) Some people aren't aware that it is possible to pirate a game. Others couldn't download using bittorrents etc.

2) I belong in this category. I don't pirate because I choose not to. I am too proud, so any game I play, I have to own it literally. Others may simply choose not too, because they want to support the developers, or because they know it is wrong.

In other words, most don't pirate, due to their own free will. Not because some mother ******** drm was imposed on them!!!! In fact, DRM screws legitimate users like me!

WHY THE HELL SHOULD I PAY YOU MORE MONEY TO LET YOU SCREW ME EVEN MORE?!

Using Steam on a retail box is the bloody worst DRM I can think of. You don't own the game, you merely rent it, and ask permission to play it from steam! AND DID I MENTION THE GAME BOX AND GAME DISCS ARE WORTHLESS AFTER 1ST USE?!

And one more thing. I would pirate Bioshock Infinite a dozen times before I pay for it! Why the hell should I pay money for a game that I will never own?

Using Steam means I will never own the game. I only rent it until the time their friggin servers go down for good, and I have to keep asking them for permission to play the game I bought every time I install it.

Not that I would pirate Bioshock Infinite. Why? Because any retail box game that has to use Steam is a guaranteed piece of crap game. There hadn't been any exceptions. These companies like Square Enix use steam, because their games suck so bad, they had no choice.

[Kirkreng]

What are you, 8?
Seriously, what kind of logic are you using? Games suck because they use Steam? What is the matter with you?

[Codex]

Guys, let's be careful with where the discussion is going here. It's all well and good to discuss the merits/drawbacks of DRM or digital downloads, but do not cross the line in to discussion of how to/promotion of piracy. That will get infractions handed out and the thread shut down. Thanks.

[Kirkreng]

What are you, 8?
Seriously, what kind of logic are you using? Games suck because they use Steam? What is the matter with you?

Excuse my post, got a little angry there

Anyway, in repy to codex:
The thing is that at this point many forms of DRM promote piracy themselves by worsening the experience for legitimate customers, pushing them towards piracy.

[Codex]

That's an argument used, yes (there's a great Penny Arcade comic on the issue from a few years ago). However, all I am saying is that promotion of piracy or discussion of how to engage in it isn't acceptable on these boards. That's all I said - it's a reminder that goes in every DRM/piracy discussion thread.

[Kirkreng]

Fair enough.

[mechgouki]

My apologies on that comment. That was discriminating against all Steam-only games, I admit.

Unfortunately, I still hate all Steam-only games. I believe all users should have a choice on whether or not they choose to use Steam as their client, and a retail game that forces the player to use Steam without giving them a choice in the matter, is an act of treason in it's own.

Did I mention that the game discs are worthless after installation for Steam-only games?

Why the hell should I pay money to buy a physical game that I do not own? I can't sell the game, borrow it from someone, and let alone install on another computer without an internet connection.

Games that force the player to use Steam do not deserve our money.

[japester]

Technically speaking, all games are bought as a license. You've never actually owned the software. You've only owned the media it was stamped on.

[mechgouki]

How excellant. What a great loophole. Okay, 2kgames, why don't you sell game discs that self-destruct after installation? That way, all the players own the ashes of the discs! This should be a great idea, since you love screwing the legitimate buyers!

[Kirkreng]

I mentioned in like the 4th post why the physical disks are not useless.
And going by your definition of owning, I don't see why you should own the product. I don't see why you should have the right to sell something you didn't make. You pay full price to enjoy the game, why do you think you are entitled to resell it to get part of the money back?

[Fugue]

I can't sell the game, borrow it from someone, and let alone install on another computer without an internet connection.

from a publishers pov that's win win, the industry really doesn't like the 2nd hand console market & they will probably kill it off by using digital distribution, so that's precisely why they do it.

why do you think you are entitled to resell it to get part of the money back?

I think that's just a historical thing, I do it all the time with console games (as I used to with PC games) which will be killed off eventually & there'll be a similar backlash when it happens but like Steam most will just adopt it. I'm all for more digital distribution, I buy stuff all the time I'll never physically "own", music apps etc etc and doesn't bother me at all, it's easy quick & convenient.

[Kirkreng]

It is indeed a historical thing. People are used to doing it and now that they might not be able to they get upset. The thing about Steam is that while there was a backlash when it released people eventually settled because it turned out to be actually more beneficial. With the constant Steam sales going on it is a win-win situation, the consumer gets games cheaper and the developer/publisher gets their money. That's why nobody minds that the used games market for PC isn't as big, if you are willing to wait for sales you can get even the newest games for dirt-cheap.

[japester]

Exactly so, Kirkreng and Fugue. PC games have been single-owner for years, yet I have purchased tons of PC games on the cheap (via Steam sales and brick and mortar store sales). Being able to resell console games, which is a billion dollar loophole since used digital content is functionally identical to new digital content, will eventually go the same way. And hopefully the end result will be cheaper games. (Though, as a side note, games have never historically been cheaper when you take inflation into account, while content has increased exponentially!)

[Fugue]

if you are willing to wait for sales you can get even the newest games for dirt-cheap.

is what I do all the time, and you don't have to wait for long even for new releases to drop in price. The largest publishers just wont go down the no DRM road while something like Steam remains popular & reduces production/distribution costs, the "hurting legitimate users" argument would only work if Steam wasn't so popular......

And hopefully the end result will be cheaper games.

that'll never happen