Arabs vs English... who is really more powerful?

[Star428]

agreed arabs, aztecs and zulu are early advts. Never seen anyone except pfd(huge jerk) who can play a game after 0bc with these civs

LOL. You haven't played me. I love using aztecs, sometimes arabs, but zulu almost never. So, honestly, i'm probably not very good with zulu after then. However, just like when i'm using aztecs, i've probably done so well in ancient that even a noob would have no trouble playing well with the advantages i've attained.

Oh, and pfdnanig/phillip is a joke (and very rude). AFAIK, he only knows how to use zulu and if he starts losing the temperature instantly drops below zero.

[JackHall2003]

That's why I believe something contesting the two will do. Perhaps Arabs are technically better but why most people dont use them? I swear I know over 60% people will say they face Arabs almost every other game which I know is false. I play FFA more than anyone in these forums and see far more people using English than Arabs. I encounter almost every two or three games a English player. Why the heck people using English so dang much if there isn't something about them that seems to them players that they would win? No matter the argument English is not stronger than Arabs but they preferred for peoples civ leader on leaderboards more commonly than Arabs.

I agree - I see a lot more people using the English than the Arabs. This is because the English suit the typical ranked player turtle style. 90% of ranked players are just not aggressive enough.

[asmodeios]

The Arabs are the perfect counter to an English player.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

The Arabs are the perfect counter to an English player.

We agree finally... Thats why they should be allowed in tournaments or English not allowed at all.

[REM018]

We agree finally... Thats why they should be allowed in tournaments or English not allowed at all.

That reasoning does not work. Arabs are stronger than English. You can bully any civ with the Arabs. Arabs are good vs. America, but does that mean that Arabs are as good as Americans? No. Same applies the other way round. Just because the Arabs are a good counter to English, does not mean that the English are as good as or better than the Arabs. It is just that the Arabs are more capable than other civs to put pressure on those longbows early. The term "counter" is maybe a little too strong. Since the English are not in the category where you would need a special counter for them. You do not need to take any English cities early if you can take all AI caps instead and contain the English player to cautious expansion.

England really only becomes a problem if the get to the double naval support with sufficient resources available to also build those cruisers. An ancient knight rush with a GS and cheap knights is also dangerous. The rest is nothing special other than that dye can be used from the get.

[danthechan]

We agree finally... Thats why they should be allowed in tournaments or English not allowed at all.

i don't know if it will be a fair test, but we can use them against each other in the 8 man bracket.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

That reasoning does not work. Arabs are stronger than English. You can bully any civ with the Arabs. Arabs are good vs. America, but does that mean that Arabs are as good as Americans? No. Same applies the other way round. Just because the Arabs are a good counter to English, does not mean that the English are as good as or better than the Arabs. It is just that the Arabs are more capable than other civs to put pressure on those longbows early. The term "counter" is maybe a little too strong. Since the English are not in the category where you would need a special counter for them. You do not need to take any English cities early if you can take all AI caps instead and contain the English player to cautious expansion.

England really only becomes a problem if the get to the double naval support with sufficient resources available to also build those cruisers. An ancient knight rush with a GS and cheap knights is also dangerous. The rest is nothing special other than that dye can be used from the get.

You speak that real talk my man. Always valid points and strong arguments, I'm convinced they better but I would still like to see how English fair against Arabs in this tourney if there is a bout between the two.

[sdu754]

That's why I believe something contesting the two will do. Perhaps Arabs are technically better but why most people dont use them? I swear I know over 60% people will say they face Arabs almost every other game which I know is false. I play FFA more than anyone in these forums and see far more people using English than Arabs. I encounter almost every two or three games a English player. Why the heck people using English so dang much if there isn't something about them that seems to them players that they would win? No matter the argument English is not stronger than Arabs but they preferred for peoples civ leader on leaderboards more commonly than Arabs.

My guess is that people who want a quick / cheap victory probably prefer the zulu or aztecs over arabs since they can get a horse or impi rush out quicker than the arabs. IOf it weren't for the zulu or aztecs the arabs would be one of the most used civs

[the_mexican]

Hey Star i think i played you and didnt relize it, someone in the chat mentioned you were gladiatormovie, I remeber that name specifically because thats the game i learned how to get oxford bombers. I played you a while ago. My user name is mrmexican09743 (and still is). You were good but i beat you because like i said after 0bc aztec players fall apart. We had a great game if you remeber. I ended up winning. I was England. I had built a bunch of knights and you took all the caps with your HA and built cities. You left your govt as a republic and built the oxford bombers but i took over all your cities and got the tech of advance flight from it. You had no defence nor no money to build more bombers so you quit, if you had dfence you would of beat the ☺☺☺☺ out of me , You remeber playing me now ?

LOL. You haven't played me. I love using aztecs, sometimes arabs, but zulu almost never. So, honestly, i'm probably not very good with zulu after then. However, just like when i'm using aztecs, i've probably done so well in ancient that even a noob would have no trouble playing well with the advantages i've attained.

Oh, and pfdnanig/phillip is a joke (and very rude). AFAIK, he only knows how to use zulu and if he starts losing the temperature instantly drops below zero.

sorry inglish is my 2 lang

[Star428]

Hey Star i think i played you and didnt relize it, someone in the chat mentioned you were gladiatormovie, I remeber that name specifically because thats the game i learned how to get oxford bombers. I played you a while ago. My user name is mrmexican09743 (and still is). You were good but i beat you because like i said after 0bc aztec players fall apart. We had a great game if you remeber. I ended up winning. I was England. I had built a bunch of knights and you took all the caps with your HA and built cities. You left your govt as a republic and built the oxford bombers but i took over all your cities and got the tech of advance flight from it. You had no defence nor no money to build more bombers so you quit, if you had dfence you would of beat the ☺☺☺☺ out of me , You remeber playing me now ?



sorry inglish is my 2 lang

I thought i told u already my psn id is Angellusfs6. I don't know where you're getting your info from but i don't remember EVER playing u.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

My guess is that people who want a quick / cheap victory probably prefer the zulu or aztecs over arabs since they can get a horse or impi rush out quicker than the arabs. If it weren't for the zulu or aztecs the arabs would be one of the most used civs

Maybe true but people don't realize how some civs can do the same thing Aztecs, Zulu and Arabs do. Americans can easily horse rush and so can China. Either way, it takes skill to use Arabs and survive a late game that your first HA not being able to conquer all forced. Some people don't have the patience to do all or some of what Arabs can do... then CAPITALIZE OFF IT. To use English, for most players I would think they choosing them for their turtle style of play is reason. If its expanding, being EXTRA safe or them caring of the monarchy bonus helping towards some cultural win, their trusting in their longbow having more defense than the conventional archer is number 1. I thought todays world in video games was about takeover and attack, attack, attack. Then I came to Civ Rev and people enjoy staying in ancient till 0 ad, building cities in the most ridiculous spots and building nonsense defenses/buildings. English compliments that for those saddest reasons. Why now I get there functionality with noobs or vets.

[glenneyre]

My 2 cents for what it is worth:

Hypothetically, Let's say you got to play one game for $ 5,000. You got to choose what Civ to play and you could only choose Arabs or English. That would be a good determination of who is more powerfull, no?

For me, the answer would be the Arabs hands down, even though I actually like playing the English a lot and play them more than the Arabs. A couple of reasons I would choose them for a money match:

1. Sometimes I struggle to get my gold or take out an AI, let alone multiple AIs, with the English. This never happens with the Arabs.

2. The Arabs are good to counter the power Civs as you can blast them early.

3. If you do fall behind, a double Vet Cat army rush with Fundy comes quickly and will mow through almost any defenses.

4. The Arabs are not nearly as map dependent as the English are.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

My 2 cents for what it is worth:

Hypothetically, Let's say you got to play one game for $ 5,000. You got to choose what Civ to play and you could only choose Arabs or English. That would be a good determination of who is more powerfull, no?

For me, the answer would be the Arabs hands down, even though I actually like playing the English a lot and play them more than the Arabs. A couple of reasons I would choose them for a money match:

1. Sometimes I struggle to get my gold or take out an AI, let alone multiple AIs, with the English. This never happens with the Arabs.

2. The Arabs are good to counter the power Civs as you can blast them early.

3. If you do fall behind, a double Vet Cat army rush with Fundy comes quickly and will mow through almost any defenses.

4. The Arabs are not nearly as map dependent as the English are.

Tested this and it works almost everytime (number 3).

[ITZ DENI3D]

Tested this and it works almost everytime (number 3).

Me as well, usually I have around 5 though. What sucks is if one of them is on an island. Then it is a real bi@tch...

[Legatus]

While being stuck on an island would be bad in most cases if $5000 was on the line, that is one scenario where I actually give England more an advantage.

Harder for the Arabs to take advantage of Fundy when isolated like that.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

While being stuck on an island would be bad in most cases if $5000 was on the line, that is one scenario where I actually give England more an advantage.

Harder for the Arabs to take advantage of Fundy when isolated like that.

Maybe but Multi always finds a way!

[RamblerMan]

I figure I would drop in for this one, as Ruthless and I always loved this debate. It depends on the player and situation. If there was a way to arrange a 1v1 scenario, I think it would be very interesting to watch it all play out. Remember that a fortified longbow army is gonna give you 18 defense. Vet Fundy HA from a hill is 18, so it's not a guarantee for the Arabs to just take you out. Expansion would be painfully slow for the English player, depending on how conservative they played it, but at the same time it would be slow for the Arabs, depending on how much they invest in their military. Sadly this is only a dream situation. In H2H or FFA, the Arabs can just gobble up the competition before they focus on England, but at the same time the English can use this time to tech their domes off and get knights, which would make the game very interesting. I would say before knights, the Arabs have a huge advantage. From knights to modern era, it would be a slug-fest (fundy vet HA vs. vet knights backed by longbows). After it hits the modern era though, any English player should be able to crush everybody into oblivion as they should have complete control over the seas for a long time due to their +1 naval attack. Double the naval support and it's over. As you all know, I favor the English in FFA just because I like long, drawn-out games. They involve more strategy, and this is, after all, a strategy game. In H2H you gotta take the Arabs, hands-down. The Arabs will get you a lot of cities very quick in either scenario, but the English will usually get far ahead in tech, given they can hold on that long. So like I said, it depends on the player and the situation, but I believe overall the Arabs have the upper hand.

[ITZ DENI3D]

I figure I would drop in for this one, as Ruthless and I always loved this debate. It depends on the player and situation. If there was a way to arrange a 1v1 scenario, I think it would be very interesting to watch it all play out. Remember that a fortified longbow army is gonna give you 18 defense. Vet Fundy HA from a hill is 18, so it's not a guarantee for the Arabs to just take you out. Expansion would be painfully slow for the English player, depending on how conservative they played it, but at the same time it would be slow for the Arabs, depending on how much they invest in their military. Sadly this is only a dream situation. In H2H or FFA, the Arabs can just gobble up the competition before they focus on England, but at the same time the English can use this time to tech their domes off and get knights, which would make the game very interesting. I would say before knights, the Arabs have a huge advantage. From knights to modern era, it would be a slug-fest (fundy vet HA vs. vet knights backed by longbows). After it hits the modern era though, any English player should be able to crush everybody into oblivion as they should have complete control over the seas for a long time due to their +1 naval attack. Double the naval support and it's over. As you all know, I favor the English in FFA just because I like long, drawn-out games. They involve more strategy, and this is, after all, a strategy game. In H2H you gotta take the Arabs, hands-down. The Arabs will get you a lot of cities very quick in either scenario, but the English will usually get far ahead in tech, given they can hold on that long. So like I said, it depends on the player and the situation, but I believe overall the Arabs have the upper hand.

Agreed, and its no guarantee that the Arabs will wipe everyone else out in FFA either.

[Zefelius]

While being stuck on an island would be bad in most cases if $5000 was on the line, that is one scenario where I actually give England more an advantage.

Harder for the Arabs to take advantage of Fundy when isolated like that.

Ugghh... so true. I remember using Arabs quite a bit in the day and being frustrated by how often I'd get island starts. They seem to get them twice as much as most civs---on par with Japan and Spain. Although even then they can do okay against most players by simply putting together a WA and finding a cap on the continent.

Like most players here, I put them above England. That's been the accepted view of the forum for the last couple of years at least. Sorry Beast!

[MultiPlayaBeast]

Ugghh... so true. I remember using Arabs quite a bit in the day and being frustrated by how often I'd get island starts. They seem to get them twice as much as most civs---on par with Japan and Spain. Although even then they can do okay against most players by simply putting together a WA and finding a cap on the continent.

Like most players here, I put them above England. That's been the accepted view of the forum for the last couple of years at least. Sorry Beast!

Yeah, it is unfortunate but Im glad that Dan set up a tourney that included them. I wonder if Arab battles have been the victors more than English in the 8 player tourney. Regardless of the poll... I still think English can make the best out of more situation than Arabs. They fail to get their 100g due to HA building and that HA dies due to some stupid battle they should have won, Arabs have nothing and more than likely lost the game. When I speak of who's better... I mean in the concept for a tourney. I just don't see Arab and English battles enough even in FFA. I wanted to see if the only real competition for them in bottom 11 be including Arabs... Is Arabs.

[dukeblue1987]

Ugghh... so true. I remember using Arabs quite a bit in the day and being frustrated by how often I'd get island starts. They seem to get them twice as much as most civs---on par with Japan and Spain. Although even then they can do okay against most players by simply putting together a WA and finding a cap on the continent.

Like most players here, I put them above England. That's been the accepted view of the forum for the last couple of years at least. Sorry Beast!

Haha, I just played my first FFA game in ages the other day against Chief Rocka. I got Arabs and an island start. Built galley. Sailed around my huge island. Then another 9 turns across the north pole to reach the mainland.

Oh yeah, he got Egypt Collosus!

[Zefelius]

Oh yeah, he got Egypt Collosus!

I think we determined sometime last year that Chief always gets Collosus! He's either a witch, very lucky, or knows something we don't...

[MultiPlayaBeast]

I think we determined sometime last year that Chief always gets Collosus! He's either a witch, very lucky, or knows something we don't...

The two games I believe I ever faced him, he had collosus. It is strange now you mention it Zef.

[ScottieX]

I think we determined sometime last year that Chief always gets Collosus! He's either a witch, very lucky, or knows something we don't...

Hmmm.. could have another go at thrashing this out if anyone wants.
I mean I might be able to get a more useful solution than my last one.

[MultiPlayaBeast]

Hmm does he walk?

Always... he know about that dang settler walking.

[asmodeios]

He had the oracle and hgb last two times I played him. The previous four or five he had colossus though.

[Legatus]

I played him once. I was Spain, he was Arabs. I settled in place, he walked, and took over Egypt...with Collossus!!!

Does my story count??????

[MultiPlayaBeast]

I played him once. I was Spain, he was Arabs. I settled in place, he walked, and took over Egypt...with Collossus!!!

Does my story count??????

Anything dealing with Chief and Collosus counts. He somehow gets his hands on it someway. Arabs I have found to be quite the match for the collosus Egyptians. I would post how but have no want for debate concerning it.

[Mawpawk]

most people with colossus get to relaxed

[Zefelius]

most people with colossus get to relaxed

what do you mean MawPawk?

[MultiPlayaBeast]

what do you mean MawPawk?

This is what I get from relaxed... it doesn't actually mean they get lazy but feeling comfortable about what that wonder's science or gold output can do and think that the game is literally over.

Example: I had a game in FFA with Welsh K O All, Slaughterz and Nightstalker801. Welsh had Egyptians, Slaughterz=China, Night=Spanish and Multi=Arabs. Welsh didn't get collosus but he had HGB and his first gp was a GL. He had one grass, 3 trees, 3 desert and 1 sea. He was at like 6 pop majority of the game. Me, Slaughterz and Night had a slow start with Welsh being the fastest to his 100g. Night's Madrid is taken out by Welsh with vet infil WA. I take it with HA and got 3 cities. I build settler out of Madrid for 4 cities but doing only so little science.

By the time I get my gp GA and flip one of Slaughterz cities, Welsh with his CoL TP, GL and 100g city is at 10 tech to my 6. I bring HA over to Slaughterz and take out all of his two last cities. I'm struggling to keep up in science as me trying to do my original technique with Arabs wouldn't work as his gp from Monarchy was a GB. Can you suppose what he built in Egypt? Collosus! I feel game is completely over because he was already doing good science out of there and now with collosus... I'm building settlers and got to 11 cities while still trying to build 2 CA's and protect what I got with no defense. He is skipping tech and going for tech's he like. He get's invention and settle's his GS into Egypt while in Demo... Great. I build a galleon and start looking for the the two artifacts left; one being LCoA. I find LCoA so that brought me close in tech to him. Then 4 turns later I find AW... that gives me EIC. I'm feeling better now and got currency too in a city which was allowing me to rush some defense for what he may bring. He brought a elite KA earlier but I had that HA from earlier waiting for it as that seems to be what all Egyptian players go for anyway. He still getting tech needed for his strat but he didn't go for things that really mattered in the late game.

Currency, Banking, Industrialization and Corporation. Me having those money techs saved the game for me as I had all the money needed to rush things to slow his advance down. I failed to mention that all the while though this game he is teching and such... he only had two cities. Egypt and 100g city was all he relied on since he got that Collosus. He got "relaxed" and thought that either him having collosus make me quit or I'd be obliterated by him eventually. He got elite tanks, took over Zulu AI capital and two other cities of their's. He built two more cities mad late but all that was in vain as it was again, mad late. I took over everything but his 100g city and Egypt... he quit. Morale to this game was that Collosus isn't everything if you do not seal the power it has given you. Smart players plan to get around that Collosus they see you getting laxed and comfortable and out of nowhere you see yourself in a losing position.

[ScottieX]

Always... he know about that dang settler walking.

yeah well anyway - I believe you can get an indication of the wonder you will get in the starting screen from your random lite civ.
you then need a sheet to figure out what wonder that random lite civ is (which changes, but there may be a way to standardise it like a clean restart each game) and then another sheet to figure out what waiting a turn will do to that wonder.

I think having certain civs in the game may change it, um like egypt and the USA, maybe just them. that would push the seed along 1 more space each i think. that means even with best planning you might be wrong every now and then and get stuck with HGb or somthing

[ITZ DENI3D]

yeah well anyway - I believe you can get an indication of the wonder you will get in the starting screen from your random lite civ.
you then need a sheet to figure out what wonder that random lite civ is (which changes, but there may be a way to standardise it like a clean restart each game) and then another sheet to figure out what waiting a turn will do to that wonder.

I think having certain civs in the game may change it, um like egypt and the USA, maybe just them. that would push the seed along 1 more space each i think. that means even with best planning you might be wrong every now and then and get stuck with HGb or somthing

It seems every time Arabs are in the game Egypt gets oracle which is freaking retarded since it is useless.

[Zefelius]

This is what I get from relaxed... it doesn't actually mean they get lazy but feeling comfortable about what that wonder's science or gold output can do and think that the game is literally over.

ahhhhh... you've got it. When he wrote "to relaxed" he meant "too relaxed."

[MultiPlayaBeast]

ahhhhh... you've got it. When he wrote "to relaxed" he meant "too relaxed."

One of the common mistakes of typing... the typo, lol.

[RamblerMan]

I think England has a lot more options, like Multi said, but I have to note from personal exerience with Ruthless (and this may be a bad example because he is the best Arab player I know), that he has, a number of times, dropped off 10+ cat/horse armies on someone's doorstep when they are VERY far ahead of him, only to have them drop out of the game from pure fear. Or they resist, only to be run over. You can never sit on your hands when the Arabs are in the game... EVER. You must always know what they are doing, and be ready for it. I oftentimes set up scouts way on the outskirts of my borders when I play Ruthless, just so I know if/when he is coming. Multi, I am the biggest supporter of England on the forums (unless Harry is still around?), and even I recognize that the Arabs (used correctly) will dominate England 6/7 times out of 10. Those games the English do win will not be dominant unless you get like every artifact. They will be long, drawn out strategized games with so much bloodshed... so many good men... wasted.

[GrizzleyTigers4]

but I have to note from personal exerience with Ruthless (and this may be a bad example because he is the best Arab player I know.

Sounds like a challenge......

[MultiPlayaBeast]

I think England has a lot more options, like Multi said, but I have to note from personal exerience with Ruthless (and this may be a bad example because he is the best Arab player I know), that he has, a number of times, dropped off 10+ cat/horse armies on someone's doorstep when they are VERY far ahead of him, only to have them drop out of the game from pure fear. Or they resist, only to be run over. You can never sit on your hands when the Arabs are in the game... EVER. You must always know what they are doing, and be ready for it. I oftentimes set up scouts way on the outskirts of my borders when I play Ruthless, just so I know if/when he is coming. Multi, I am the biggest supporter of England on the forums (unless Harry is still around?), and even I recognize that the Arabs (used correctly) will dominate England 6/7 times out of 10. Those games the English do win will not be dominant unless you get like every artifact. They will be long, drawn out strategized games with so much bloodshed... so many good men... wasted.

War do wage scars on the families of the soldiers. Arabs are all about the bloodshed... English aim to stop it from what their bonuses reflect. the sea bonuses is to protect from sneaky naval attack and it gets down into the years... Those ships is helping on land too. Arabs need a competent and strong foe. I think that English is best out of all the civs. Zulu, Aztec and Spanish... Aren't in the league of them (I say). When English is left to face the rest of those bottom civs... It seems no fair.

[ITZ DENI3D]

War do wage scars on the families of the soldiers. Arabs are all about the bloodshed... English aim to stop it from what their bonuses reflect. the sea bonuses is to protect from sneaky naval attack and it gets down into the years... Those ships is helping on land too. Arabs need a competent and strong foe. I think that English is best out of all the civs. Zulu, Aztec and Spanish... Aren't in the league of them (I say). When English is left to face the rest of those bottom civs... It seems no fair.

Spanish and Aztecs are definitely in the same league as them dude. If I see a person that only plays Arabs and is half way decent with them I will either use English, Aztec, Spanish or of course the Arabs. Most of the time I do quite well so I have to disagree... With Spain it depends if you can find choke points or not to block the Arabs. With Aztecs it is about luck IMO (who gets most gold and the first HA out usually wins)

[sdu754]

War do wage scars on the families of the soldiers. Arabs are all about the bloodshed... English aim to stop it from what their bonuses reflect. the sea bonuses is to protect from sneaky naval attack and it gets down into the years... Those ships is helping on land too. Arabs need a competent and strong foe. I think that English is best out of all the civs. Zulu, Aztec and Spanish... Aren't in the league of them (I say). When English is left to face the rest of those bottom civs... It seems no fair.

There are atleast 6 civs better than english: Americans, China, Zulu, Aztec, Arabs & Spain

Egypt can be better, especially if they get collussus, but they are too most luck dependant to be ranked accurately.

I would rank English with Germans and Indians in power, just below the top six.