Tweaks for Current Civs in Expansion

[Joketa]

Given the new elements in the upcoming expansion. What tweaks to the currently available civs do you expect or hope for? Keep in mind the changes the expansion offers. Some of my initial thoughts are as follows:

City State Changes:

This seems to affect Siam the most as their UA may change to include Mercantile and Religious CSs, or may be completely reworked.

Espionage:

This could be a chance to bolster the UA of underwhelming civs like America and England.

Religion:

Lots of potential changes here. Most people seem to be talking about the Aztecs receiving Faith instead of Culture for their kills.

Melee Ships:

We may see Korea's Turtle Ships become a replacement for a melee ship instead of a Caravel. It was a ship famous for ramming and bombardment, so it may do both.

[steveg700]

Bear in mind that UB's will be affected. Anything that has the aspects of a temple, for instance, such as the mughai fort, wat, burial tomb, or mud pyramid mosque.

[Joketa]

Bear in mind that UB's will be affected. Anything that has the aspects of a temple, for instance, such as the mughai fort, wat, burial tomb, or mud pyramid mosque.

Very true. It's hard to say exactly what is going to happen with Faith and how it will affect what are currently Culture buildings. They can't really reduce the availability of Culture and it would be hard to remove Culture altogether from religious buildings. I can imagine an implementation of Cathedrals as a late medieval building. How much will these buildings affect Faith and how much will the affect Culture? Could we see the Wat removed from the University and put in place of the Cathedral? Could we see Happiness removed from the Burial Tomb and replaced with a Faith modifier?

[zephyrtr]

Yeah man... And the Piety branch? What crazy changes will happen there? MUCH of the game is going to change.

Probably there will be a Faith track and a Culture track, and Temples will be moved over and then replaced. Boats will have a big overhaul so I imagine Ships of the Line and Turtle Ships may be greatly reworked.

God I just wish they'd start releasing more info. But we're not seeing this thing til May, I guarantee you.

[Tahitian Moon]

I agree, the new city-state systems, religion and faith, espionage, improved combat and navies, they are gonna affect many many parts of the game.

From buildings, unique abilities and units to social policies.

Also it gives so much more variables and combinations as there are new factors now.

I don't know is it a rumour or from some article but Merchant city states would have unique resources?

[Black Gate of Mordor]

I would love it if the Turtle Ship replaced a rammer. I love and hate those things.

But I'd imagine the expansion will overhaul almost everything. I'd love to see a picture of the new social policy trees and the tech tree (or at least just the current techs, but with all the updated things too).

[craig123]

I hope that the naval improvements make England's and the Ottoman's UAs much more useful.

[Joketa]

I hope that the naval improvements make England's and the Ottoman's UAs much more useful.

As do I. And Songhai's too, though I never understood why an empire that was landlocked and in a desert has a navel UA.

My question is, which civs should be tweaked towards religion and which should get an espionage bonus?

[craig123]

My question is, which civs should be tweaked towards religion and which should get an espionage bonus?

Well England could get an espionage-based UA if they wanted to change things. The UK is famous for Bletchley Park, MI5 and MI6 (and, although fictional, James Bond). However, personally, I'd rather they kept with a naval/commerce bonus.

USA and Russia could also be candidates for espionage bonuses.

[Joketa]

The US and Russia are good candidates. Russia's UA is pretty solid, though. America's is a little weak and could get an espionage bonus without unbalancing things. Same with England. The problem may be that the names of the UAs don't reflect anything about espionage, so that may be out. It would, however, be a shame to see another, unfitting civ receive espionage bonuses just because the civs most suited to it don't have anything about it in the name.

[eastkitton]

USA and Russia could also be candidates for espionage bonuses.

Russia may be the Firaxis way of thinking.

In Civ2 it was the advance of Communism that unlocked espionage, allowing spies - although you could conduct weaker espionage earlier with diplomats.

[steveg700]

I hope that the naval improvements make England's and the Ottoman's UAs much more useful.

Melee ships mean that naval units can now capture cities, and that's significant in and of itself. Right now, if you settle a one-tile spot, you may not have a productive city, but you sure have one that's nigh-impossible to capture.

[steveg700]

The US and Russia are good candidates. Russia's UA is pretty solid, though. America's is a little weak and could get an espionage bonus without unbalancing things. Same with England. The problem may be that the names of the UAs don't reflect anything about espionage, so that may be out. It would, however, be a shame to see another, unfitting civ receive espionage bonuses just because the civs most suited to it don't have anything about it in the name.

Well, it's not just the UA's that can be changed. The krepost, for example, could be modified to provide points (or whatever the currency that fuels espionage is called).

[zephyrtr]

Faith is the Religion currency. I don't believe there's currency for espionage -- you just get so many Spies and that's that. I also don't think they'll start altering Civ abilities wholesale, just where they need to to keep with the changes of the game: Songhai UA, Conquistador, and perhaps the naval UUs if the entire line of Naval units is totally reworked.

Probably also the Temple will be replaced so it can go with the faith buildings, likely meaning the Burial Tomb and Mud Pyramid Mosque will be different. Monastery will probably also give +Faith, but add +Culture for Incense and Wine. Changes that have to be made will be made, and then perhaps balancing will occur. But they're not gonna totally redo America or whatever just to give them espionage benefits.

[Joketa]

Changes that have to be made will be made, and then perhaps balancing will occur. But they're not gonna totally redo America or whatever just to give them espionage benefits.

I'm sure you're right, but I still think it's possible that they could tag a bonus onto the end. +1 sight for all land units; cheaper tile purchases; Spies 20% more effective. Something like that.

Of course, there may not be any civs with an espionage bonus. I can't really think that there would be better ones than America, England or Russia, and I suspect it would most easily be appropriate to tag it onto the Americans.

[steveg700]

Faith is the Religion currency. I don't believe there's currency for espionage -- you just get so many Spies and that's that. I also don't think they'll start altering Civ abilities wholesale, just where they need to to keep with the changes of the game: Songhai UA, Conquistador, and perhaps the naval UUs if the entire line of Naval units is totally reworked.

Probably also the Temple will be replaced so it can go with the faith buildings, likely meaning the Burial Tomb and Mud Pyramid Mosque will be different. Monastery will probably also give +Faith, but add +Culture for Incense and Wine. Changes that have to be made will be made, and then perhaps balancing will occur. But they're not gonna totally redo America or whatever just to give them espionage benefits.

Overall I agree that there won't be a reworking of existing civ's except where faith is more appropriate than culture (e.g. Aztecs) and espionage is more appropriate than whatever esoteric ability a unique grants (e.g. the Russian krepost).

There's going to be some mechanism through which some civ's will be better at espionage than others. It may not come in the form of points-per-turn, but there will be some way to have more spies or get better at missions. This Civ doesn't do sliders, and it can't simply come as a result of unlocking the appropriate tech, because in this edition of the game, the vast majority of techs are mandatory to continue up the tree. So, what else it left? Buildings and sopols. Maybe a national wonder (which is an extension of buildings).

[steveg700]

Yeah man... And the Piety branch? What crazy changes will happen there? MUCH of the game is going to change.

Probably there will be a Faith track and a Culture track, and Temples will be moved over and then replaced. Boats will have a big overhaul so I imagine Ships of the Line and Turtle Ships may be greatly reworked.

Wonder what will happen with the monument? Culture, faith, or both?

I suspect Piety will provide a way to convert faith into more culture, and vice-versa. Oh, and to get more happiness.

[the man of doom]

Melee ships mean that naval units can now capture cities, and that's significant in and of itself. Right now, if you settle a one-tile spot, you may not have a productive city, but you sure have one that's nigh-impossible to capture.

against the AI sure
but in mp, small island cities (1-5 total land tiles) are the easiest to take since u can get more ships within range

[zephyrtr]

I'm sure you're right, but I still think it's possible that they could tag a bonus onto the end. +1 sight for all land units; cheaper tile purchases; Spies 20% more effective. Something like that.

Why would they do this? That would be a blatant buff to America, a team that is certainly not underpowered. No, just because it 'feels right' doesn't mean they're gonna do it. America's benefits are themed around Manifest Destiny, the Revolutionary War and our famous Flying Fortress. There's no room to bring in our history with Russia and the Cold War and the CIA. Everybody gets three things, and America already has them.

[SamBC]

Well England could get an espionage-based UA if they wanted to change things. The UK is famous for Bletchley Park, MI5 and MI6 (and, although fictional, James Bond). However, personally, I'd rather they kept with a naval/commerce bonus.

England was also renowned for espionage under Elizabeth's spymasters.

[steveg700]

America isn't particularly outstanding at covert ops, relatively speaking. That is to say, when it comes to national defense, America does everything well, but they aren't to be particularly noted for espionage.

Indeed, the CIA had long been the target of derision by other agencies because of rampant sloppiness and corruption. Russia was much better at spying on us than we were on them. Darn Bill of Rights. I suspect we will find that social policies impact espionage, and the trees that excel at it won't be the liberty and freedom-loving ones.

[SamBC]

Melee ships mean that naval units can now capture cities, and that's significant in and of itself. Right now, if you settle a one-tile spot, you may not have a productive city, but you sure have one that's nigh-impossible to capture.

How sure can we be that melee ships can take cities? It wouldn't seem to make much sense, to me at least. It takes troops to pacigy and hold a city, and the marine complement of ships isn't generally huge.

[zephyrtr]

Ya the CIA was an attempted port of the British MI6, wasn't it? I would imagine there are more famous spy institutions elsewhere.

[jpbar81]

How sure can we be that melee ships can take cities? It wouldn't seem to make much sense, to me at least. It takes troops to pacigy and hold a city, and the marine complement of ships isn't generally huge.

I believe it's been mentioned on numerous game sites that melee ships will also be able to capture coastal cities. How reputable they are for their information is another thing or whether they all spawned off of the misinformation of one site.

With regards to sense, I guess it makes as much sense as embarked units taking cities amphibiously, it's almost the same thing. I'm excited to see what the animation looks like! Perhaps, the graphics can be men charging off the ship and those units can be whatever melee unit is appropriate for the given era the ship belongs to. They'd just be graphical though, they wouldn't reflect the ships combat strengths or anything else. I'm starting to digress, though... getting too excited.

Also, one might say that the ship graphic represents a whole fleet of ships... similar to how 12 men represent an army.

Regardless, it'll be pretty neat!

[steveg700]

With regards to sense, I guess it makes as much sense as embarked units taking cities amphibiously, it's almost the same thing.

Exactly. People toss around the term "realism" as if it had real weight in a game that has always had a high level of abstraction, particularly in regards to how combat works.

Granted, ships should actually be able to carry troops. You can stick planes on a carrier, so I'm not sure why they didn't permit it for land units.

[craig123]

England was also renowned for espionage under Elizabeth's spymasters.

Indeed, particularly Sir Francis Walsingham (although I'm not sure how well known that is outside of Britain).

[zephyrtr]

Granted, ships should actually be able to carry troops. You can stick planes on a carrier, so I'm not sure why they didn't permit it for land units.

Too complicated. Since planes have to have a 'base,' the only way they could be moved around freely is if you let them "re-base" onto a carrier, which navies have done since forever. Though it kind of makes less sense, especially with the removal of SOD's, it would just be too annoying loading up ships with units.

[SamBC]

Granted, ships should actually be able to carry troops. You can stick planes on a carrier, so I'm not sure why they didn't permit it for land units.

I'm not certain, but in my prodding around modding it seems that air units (proper DOMAIN_AIR units, not helicopters) have a very distinct mechanic, and they are the only things that are allowed to be 'carried' by anything, and they can only exist when carried (including by a city). I suspect making a land unit that could carry planes and missiles would be quite easy, while making any sort of unit that can carry anything not DOMAIN_AIR didn't seem to be.

[steveg700]

Too complicated. Since planes have to have a 'base,' the only way they could be moved around freely is if you let them "re-base" onto a carrier, which navies have done since forever. Though it kind of makes less sense, especially with the removal of SOD's, it would just be too annoying loading up ships with units.

Comlicated? Annoying? Plenty of games have troop transport. Works great in Civ Rev, for instance. Don't see why it wouldn't here. Don't be so quick to negate, Zeph.

[Joketa]

Why would they do this? That would be a blatant buff to America, a team that is certainly not underpowered. No, just because it 'feels right' doesn't mean they're gonna do it. America's benefits are themed around Manifest Destiny, the Revolutionary War and our famous Flying Fortress. There's no room to bring in our history with Russia and the Cold War and the CIA. Everybody gets three things, and America already has them.

I agree except that I think America does not a bit of a buff. Perhaps I undervalue tile buying since I generally have strong culture. One could see espionage in the form of nation manipulation as an extension of Manifest Destiny but that may be too loaded for them to apply it. Out of England, Russia and America, the Americans seemed the most appropriate civ to get an espionage bonus in their UA. I think someone mentioned the Krepost, but that building is already strong and appropriate. I can't think of any other civs current or forthcoming that should get an espionage bonus, so it's probbaly unlikely to happen. Lets move on to other aspects.

It is known that the Celts will get a Faith bonus when their city is aligned with a forest. Given that Faith bonuses will be implemented in UAs, could you see an existing civ have their UA altered to match this game change. Surely, forthcoming civs are not more religious than the existing ones. Or is it simply a matter of UB alteration?

Will Siam's UA be altered to include bonuses from the new city states, or does that make it too powerful?

[zephyrtr]

Maybe, maybe not. It would be a nice way to silently nerf one of the strongest Civs in the game: nothing changes with Siam's UA, but now fewer Maritime and Cultural City-States spawn, so they have fewer opportunities to take advantage of Father Governs Children.

There's a concern here that what happens to players who don't get the expansion? The pre-expansion Civs may have to all in entirety NOT have anything to do with Religion or Espionage because some players who will be using them won't have those features in their game. Have we considered that? That would mean even Unique Temples like Mud Pyramid Mosque can't produce Faith.

[steveg700]

Maybe, maybe not. It would be a nice way to silently nerf one of the strongest Civs in the game: nothing changes with Siam's UA, but now fewer Maritime and Cultural City-States spawn, so they have fewer opportunities to take advantage of Father Governs Children.

That's a good insight. I suspect Siam will get mercantile bonuses, but not faith. Of course, if CS's actually require a civ to woo them, not just pay them all off, then that may well reign them in right there.

There's a concern here that what happens to players who don't get the expansion? The pre-expansion Civs may have to all in entirety NOT have anything to do with Religion or Espionage because some players who will be using them won't have those features in their game. Have we considered that? That would mean even Unique Temples like Mud Pyramid Mosque can't produce Faith.

Do you mean in multiplayer? Players without the expansion simply may not be able to play with those who do have it. Forget civ's, there will be a great differentiation in units (no machine gunners fro them!).

[jpbar81]

... Granted, ships should actually be able to carry troops. You can stick planes on a carrier, so I'm not sure why they didn't permit it for land units.

I've proposed the idea in the past for the return of, more specifically, "transport" ships for land units.

I've wished for the exact auto-embark feature we have now for a long time playing Civ. But after using it, it has its flaws and disadvantages at times. Coupled with 1UPT, it makes massive naval invasions with embarked units a real nightmare to move; traffic jams galore.

I think having both systems in the game would probably be the best solution. Auto-embark for the convenience of moving one or a few units from time to time, and naval transports for moving many units across the sea conveniently.

There would probably have to be another perk to transports to make players want to use them, otherwise, some won't care about the convenience factor and will painstakingly move each of their emarked units instead of having to waste turns and hammers on transport ships. Not good game design. So, probably, a nice movement bonus would work; one that's quicker than embarked unit speed.

Also, to balance the advantage of "stacking" units into a transport and having more densely populated hexes, part of the disadvantage would be the slower drop-offs since units would either have to wait for the earlier drop-off to move out of the way or there has to be enough empty land available to spread them out. Of course, the other disadvantage would be "putting all your eggs in one basket". Even during unloading, your units that are still in the transport are vulnerable to sinking from enemy ranged attacks.

Another rule that would be necessary to avoid exploitation would be that land units can't make amphibious attacks off of transports. This would prevent the potential stacks of doom from the sea, since you'd be able to make multiple attacks off of only 1 tile.

The total capacity wouldn't be too high. Maybe 3 to match carrier capacity? Or actually maybe more, like 4 or 5, since land units can't make coordinated attacks like air units and attack the same tile as easily. Also, land units would have to land first and travel to their targets to attack while air units simply have a large range of tiles to instantly attack (which is why they're limited to 3). I think I might like the number 5 and, again, it would further encourage players to build them.

I think that covers it... I forget what else I might have proposed regarding this in the past.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

There's a concern here that what happens to players who don't get the expansion? The pre-expansion Civs may have to all in entirety NOT have anything to do with Religion or Espionage because some players who will be using them won't have those features in their game. Have we considered that? That would mean even Unique Temples like Mud Pyramid Mosque can't produce Faith.

Perhaps there'll be multiple patches? Although I doubt that. They'll probably do one more patch just before GK comes out and then the expansion changes the uniques and everything else, and Firaxis drops support (patch-wise) for the vanilla game.

[craig123]

^ I agree with all of this.

I would also like the ability for all ships to be able to carry a single civilian unit or scout, mainly for grabbing ruins when you are exploring. It could also be used for carrying a settler, a Great Merchant and - now with the expansion - a missionary. What do people think of this?

I'm also very interested to find out how the new Great Admiral will work; will you load it onto a ship? Or do you have to embark it and move it next to your ships (which would seem strange)?

[Black Gate of Mordor]

I'm curious as to whether the Great Admiral's actually a part of the game or whether it's just a mis-translation or something of the sort.

Also, why aren't they just called Generals or Admirals like TW? The great prefix is pointless - unless there's a unit I've missed throughout my entire playtime.

[craig123]

It would be good to have more evidence but what else could the article be saying? The translation is something like "with the admiral a leader comes into play". Any theories what else it might mean?

[Heinage]

Perhaps a hint at one of the extra 9 civs being added? perhaps one of them has a leader who was a famous admiral?

Pure conjecture. I myself believe it's most likely a Great Admiral unit as well, but you asked the question and there's one theory

[zephyrtr]

Do you mean in multiplayer? Players without the expansion simply may not be able to play with those who do have it. Forget civ's, there will be a great differentiation in units (no machine gunners fro them!).

No, I mean in everything. If someone doesn't buy the expansion, they don't have Religion or Espionage in their game. They of course have all the 'vanilla' Civs, but if these Civs' unique bonuses are changed to affect Religion or Espionage, they then become worthless because those features aren't in this player's game, or anyone else's who doesn't have the expansion. That means:

A) Vanilla Civs need two versions of their abilities (confusing)
B) 2k/Firaxis is a huge jerk for penalizing people who don't want to buy their expansion, or
C) Vanilla Civs are barred from uniquely affecting Faith or Espionage

See what I'm saying?

[steveg700]

Bear with me. I may be suffering from mental flatulence today. Here's how I figure it:

If you don't buy the expansion, elements from the expansion won't be present in your game. You'll have the old version of the civ's that don't incorporate the new elements.

If you do buy the expansion, elements from the expansion overwrite the old versions.

I don't see anything confusing or punitive here. There may be two versions of civ's, but any given person only has the one.