Fairly simple question: Given that the troop size in the game will be so small (4-12), should aliens be allowed to mind control your squaddies?
Feel Free to vote in the Poll.
Fairly simple question: Given that the troop size in the game will be so small (4-12), should aliens be allowed to mind control your squaddies?
Feel Free to vote in the Poll.
Bah, I just realized that I should have added another option: No, no psychic attacks whatsoever. I sure wish I could edit the poll...
I really hated the psionics of the original game and TFTD. They were the ultimate "I win" button once you got them and basically the whole goal of a superhuman game. Did you get psionics? Congratulations, it no longer matters what you do because you just won the game. Did you get unlucky and that sectoid leader met an unfortunate end before you could stun him: Oops guess you didn't get it before ethereals! Enjoy being screwed and starting over once you get impossibly overwhelmed. Of course, I actually didn't use psionics (or MC) myself because once you had it I didn't like it removed all challenge and interest in the game from that point on. But the problem is that big tempting "Use me to just win, I know you want to" calling out to me was so hard to resist.
There was nothing interesting about them other than the AIs magical exploitation of whoever didn't luck out on the random psionic resistance roll at the start. I wouldn't mind seeing psionics restricted to powers/abilities that the aliens have in XCOM, which perhaps your soldiers can pick up after you research it for boosts and similar. But the infinite range and utterly uninteresting mechanic of "I win" or "Whoops, pretty much screwed" should not come back.
I think mind control is a pretty big part of the game. Without it, Sectods and Ethereals lose a lot of what made them good adversaries. But, what limits could work?
1. Line of sight required to MC.
2. Mind Controller unable to move or take actions while Controlling another.
3. Mind Controller takes stun damage equal to actual damage of Controlled Unit.
4. In addition to Mind Control and Panic, add Mind Spy (see unit's POV as well as Inventory, Stats, Rank) , Distraction (reduces reaction Fire chances), or Mind Trick (Affected unit sees things that aren't really there. See X-COM:Alliance trailer).
It would be interesting if the humans get some restrictions and the aliens others.
Never liked mind control, psionics may cause something like 'confused' state though, (like in those older DnD CRPG's) it could be alright but still powerful.
I really liked how Psionics fit into the 'story' of the game. I never really dealt with stun rods so I never captured the first sectoid leader to get a jump start on psi (I didn't know you could do that until this forum).
So for me psi was something that I would face really early on, be freaked out because it was destroying my rookies and make me shoot myself in the face...and then it was floaters for a long time. Then snakemen, then mutons. Then all of a sudden a new alien that had that mind control crap again and it was annoying and hard. When I accidentally captured an etheral and the research option for psi came up it was the most amazing part of the game. woa, I can do that?!?! It unfolded a whole new layer of the game when I thought I new my guys pretty well.
It doesn't have to be psi, but that kind of paradigm shift in the middle of the game is one of the things that made xcom great.
I really like these suggestions, and those restrictions seem fair for full mind-control. I also like the idea of keeping several lesser options than full MC, that would have a higher % chance of working the lesser the effect. The reasons MC was so overpowered in the first game were numerous, and the line of sight was a big one. Another problem was that you could spam MC and hit several aliens in a turn, which is a problem I think the move/action system will naturally correct (one turn, one attempt). And finally, it just had too high of a chance of working.Originally Posted by ShanDaMan
If MC is reintroduced, I'd like to see something like needing to capture an ethereal to start developing the technology.. but I don't want it to be possible for humans to reliably mind control an ethereal. I think the main factor should be the species involved, to where maybe the best human psi could MC the least intelligent ethereal 10% of the time. Against ethereals you'd just have to suck it up or try the lesser psi effects. Then right under ethereals you have sectoids, then mutons maybe around equal or slightly below human (braun not brains), etc.
Another thing that would be neat.. make the ability to use psionics tied to some kind of brain implant. Instead of held equipment, agents wanting to use psionics would need to undergo surgery that might take them out of commission for a month of recovery. This is one stat I'd like to be hidden until new soldiers can be evaluated at the psi lab, and not all of them would be able to handle the surgery. Maybe even the weaker soldiers could undergo minor surgery to have a defensive psionic implant installed, giving them some measure of resistance to attack. And again, you'd have to rotate people in and out since surgery would take them off the field for some degree of time.
Mind control probably won't appear until a bit later in the game, hopefully by then the squad size would have grown. I do want it in the game, but with a better balance. An alien/Xcom agent shouldn't be able to sit safely in their ship and play ping-pong with the opposition's grey matter - they should either have to be able to see their target, or at least maybe be within range of a fellow Psi capable operative who can see the target? Then they could attack the target's mind via some sort of mind-meld with their colleague, while at the same time keeping some sort of distance between them and danger - I think a system like that could work well.
I would like to know what the "Yes, and without restrictions" voters have to say. So far, nobody posted here. Do you guys really want no challenge at all in the later game?
The poll reads "Should aliens be allowed mind-control your units?"
You interpreted it the other way around?
That was my bad. The thread title is a bit misleading as to the actual question. I wanted to focus specifically more on aliens being able to control your units versus aliens AND/OR X-Com being able to use it. I realize now that the two are a bit inseparable.
Good discussion overall though. I was wondering how MC might going to work given that an alien mind control of a just a single unit in the new game could seriously devestate your squad (especially if you had only 4 units to start). And if they consistently MC'd 2 or more at once? Game over man, GAME OVER!
I'll second the idea by Aegeri that getting psi with MC in the original was like an "I win" button. I also would not like that repeated.
Honestly, with the new game, I'm hoping for no mind control whatsoever (mind rape is ok though in my book). However, if there is some kind of MC in the game, I would like to see some severe restrictions on it.
Oh ur right. Yes I only read the thread-title. Uhm...
I missed that too and was only responding to psi in general. Of course the aliens should be able to mind control you! What is this, cowardice?
(Doesn't change my vote)
Yes, they should! but I would like to see it that once you kill the alien that is controlling your unit you get control back. In apoc the brain suckers used to really cheese me off. When you killed anthropod with a launcher, the next turn 4 brain suckers would appear and take out an entire squad that you could never get back!
I preferred the Psimorph from apoc. They were very strong PSI and could make any of your units dance a rain dance. However once you killed the Psimorph that had taken control of your unit you got the control back.
I voted for only mind ravaging things, but I wouldn't mind MC if one's MC strength could improve over time. That was really my bigger issue with MC in the original game as it meant various soldiers that I spent all this time with were now useless and cannon-fodder should their MC strength be under like 75. Granted I also was one of the people that typically didn't use MC as it pretty much removed all of the challenge of the game.
So I think a revamped MC system that isn't as punishing on certain soldiers while useless on the better ones and also isn't so OP once you get it is the way to go. And I would say that the MC system of EU/TFTD is probably the most complained about thing from the original game. I mean I find mutons more challenging than ethereals once you have a proper team that is effectively immune to MC since at least mutons can take a couple hits before dying.
Your wish is my command (well, in this case, anyway)
Sweet! Thanks Mod. I Didn't even think to bother one of you guys to do this.
Damn, I just realized a grammar mistake in the poll question. The word "to" needs to be inserted between "allowed" and "mind-control" to read "Should aliens be allowed to mind-control your units?" It's not a big deal, but if you could fix that too, I would be grateful.
Psychic powers were one of the 'Holy Trinity' of uber weapons with St. Heavy Plasma of ownage and St. Blaster Bomb of immaculate destruction. In both EU and TFTD they were overpowered for both you and perhaps the enemy. XCOM:APOC had it more balanced as it was a weapon like any other- use it and you got proficient, don't use it and it isn't detrimental to your overall campaign, as well as limiting it to line-of-sight only. This causes a bit of a dilemma- if I need to see any enemy to panic/control it, why don't I just shoot it instead?
There are several courses to take imo:
1/ Remove the ability for humans to use mind powers and have mind-defense tech only.
2/ Have it same a APOC but greatly expand the powers e.g 'Mental focus ability' that gives target friendly +20% accuracy. Psykers could be a very useful support unit.
3/ Get rid of them altogether and pretend they never happened.
Not decided between 1 and 2. Mind powers always seemed uniquely alien to me so I'd want them in at least for the aliens.
could do it by area instead of LOS. After all you are 'feeling' out a mind, not so much looking into it. At least that's how I always saw it. That way it could act as a way of short range detection too...
I feel that MC is an essential part of the game. Sure it is frustrating when they PSI attack your units and then one of your guys turns around and blasts away your best soldier, but that adds to the suspense of the game. Plus, it becomes very satisfying when you get the PSI ability and can start taking over their guys. Always loved taking over an alien, walking him over to a friend of his (or group of friends) and dropping a primed grenade.
Something like this would probably be better. Short range area but you don't have to see the enemy. Though not seeing the enemy and the further away the enemy is the less likely you are to succeed would also help to balance it in addition to the short range idea.
Alien suicide bombers FTW!I feel that MC is an essential part of the game. Sure it is frustrating when they PSI attack your units and then one of your guys turns around and blasts away your best soldier, but that adds to the suspense of the game. Plus, it becomes very satisfying when you get the PSI ability and can start taking over their guys. Always loved taking over an alien, walking him over to a friend of his (or group of friends) and dropping a primed grenade.
What are the 'other ideas'? The above is mine.
A psi ability that gives an enemy hallucinations would be cool. You soldiers start shooting at an alien that isn't actually there. Increase the number of targets, decreasing the chance of a real soldier getting shot. (Obviously this would originally be an alien skill that you could learn!)
Opposite: cause blindness, that unit can't see anything so accuracy is basically 0% and movement is reduced.
A unit mind controlling another unit shouldn't be able to do anything else. Panicking them should be less limiting.
Nice one, Gen - I like the hallucination idea.
That is a pretty good idea. Though, I would do it with range... the enemy has to be in range (which can be extended -- in a way -- through use of other PSI agents). For example, if Soldier A has a PSI range of 20 yards and Soldier B has a PSI range of 50 yards... Soldier A is 15 yards behind B and B can see an alien 20 yards in front of him, then Soldier A would be able to MC the alien through Soldier B (maybe at a hit against strength or something for the bounce).What are the 'other ideas'? The above is mine.
I like the hallucination idea as well. It would make sense too!
The whole mind control deal is sinister and cool and very appropriate for the game's theme. Though with a small squad size it needs to be rebalanced somewhat. But I think it's important that it's still in.
True - but right now it's a bit of a 'I Win' button for Xcom - it does need to be rebalanced, but it should definitely 100% be in the game.
I think that psi abilitys should be more than just mind control
telikinesis <I'm sorry i can't spell> to move objects for cover and to attack
Mind control but it would start out with just attacking moral then get more complex like basic mind control <turn and shoot only maybe> then moving and reloading then commiting suicide or using gernades and so on <and when sectoids are connected maybe half your skill to each of them or just kill the non-target sectoid>
Illusions start out making a fake soldier, then blinding, then making aliens look like soldiers or something like that
telepithy to see what and where the enimies will be and what they will do maybe see if they have a reaction shot reaction shot ready
to clear fog of war in an area <would be interesting with squad sight for snipers and to look through doors around corners ect.>
maybe like a mental emp that could stun enemys or jam ranged weapons with telikinesis
just some stuff that would make you feel like a bad @$$
I like the telekinesis idea, where you could pull cars over to make cover, etc. Actually I like them all! But how to balance them?
I like the idea of giving more mind powers to the aliens. Mind control should be in, but heavily balanced. Give the player ways to deal with mind controlled units. Maybe talking to them so they can break free of the mind control or stunning them. Maybe you can make phasers and we can put them to stun and shoot our own troops :P
The idea of some of the aliens having other abilities like telekinesis is a good one. Maybe they aren't good with a weapon, but they throw stuff at you.
Not sure If I want the humans to get those abilities. Didn't exactly enjoyed them in the original that much. Defense against Mind Control would be great though.
Yeah, I certainly don't want mind control in the form it was in the original game, where your troops could be chain-controlled. I'd actually like it if being controlled actually made it less likely for attempts to control the unit to work in the next few turns. Demoralising troops should always succeed to some degree IMHO, and make psychic attempts to cause the unit to panic a seperate thing.
I'd also love to see a form of "psychic suppression", let's call it an anxiety attack rather than a panic attack, that simply tries to stun or slow a soldier for the next turn, weaken their aim, or stop them from getting off a reaction shot if they're in overwatch. That would make sense as possibly the easiest type of psychic attack that might succeed when the soldier is at moderately low morale.
How about we extend that further, and have soldiers who survive multiple psi attacks become more resistant to them stat-wise over time? Or would it be like allergen exposure, and they'd get more sensitised?
Weren't the original game's Ethereals meant to have telekinetic abilities?
I was thinking more the particularly strong psychic attacks would essentially be "attacks of opportunity" that only ever worked sucessfully when a soldier was already demoralised and hadn't recently been controlled, but that over time psychic attacks would make you more vulnerable to future attack.
Yeah, I got that, I was just thinking of if and how it should be extended long-term to stats, like moving around making a soldier fitter or shooting at things making him/her more accurate.
Given the troop size of 4-6, definantly NO.
If we had squad sizes of 12+, loosing one to the enemys side wouldnt be such a big impact.
Ah, didn't realise you were talking permanent stats rather than in-mission.
Hmm. Well, in the original, attacks either got you killed directly or you survived and your bravery increased. I suppose if the aliens get the ability to continually harass a soldier on zero morale, it would make sense to lower their will or something similar.
oh god please don't give them other ideas on how to permanently lower will...! =p
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