Yeah, that's why I'm so upset about all the changes. If this game does not sell then we will probably never see big budget turned based game again.Originally Posted by Dont_mess_Xcom_Up
Yeah, that's why I'm so upset about all the changes. If this game does not sell then we will probably never see big budget turned based game again.
That's a stretch. This wouldn't ruin a game like the civilization dynasty. If X-COM: Enforcer didn't ruin the X-COM brand than nothing can.
TUs suck. Unless you have very rudimentary commands and abilities, as in the original x-com, you quickly end up with a cluster☺☺☺☺ of commands and numbers which would make it impossible to predict what each soldier can do much less your entire squad in advance.
I think modders will be in for a rude awakening when they add TUs back in, they're going to have to strip out all the cool new abilities and skills to keep it from being overwhelming, and I think they'll end up missing them.
I don't think it'd be overwhelming at all. We had item-based abilities in the old games anyway (Motion Tracking, Psi Attacks, Mind Probing, Stunning, Melee, Prime-And-Throw and the basic set of shot types), and I never had any trouble with them being "overwhelming"; I really do suspect that's a problem with their playtesters and the result of Firaxis doing their own tests while having their sights set on a wider, more casual audience. What have we seen so far? Sprinting? It's a movement speed a-la Apocalypse. Supressive fire? Just another shot type, one that locks your turn until your target's dead, probably. Grappling hook? Special terrain-targeting shot type. You might not want to measure TUs/APs, but it doesn't mean other people aren't fine with it.
If I get the time, though, perks are probably going to become passive boosts, mostly, just because I feel that makes more sense. I reckon I'll probably only keep the ones that unlock a mechanic (squad sight, for instance) the way they are. I just don't really care for most of the new cooldown ability stuff, especially when it comes to stuff like the rocket launcher - ammo will be back in, too, which will need a proper inventory, happy days. The grappling hook armour's about the only thing I'd accept as a cooldown; it probably has to recharge its compressed air supply or something. Though it could be fun to limit the number of easy spiderman-style position-changes by making it run off cartridges.
Sure with TUs It's just simple math to figure out what you want your current soldier to do at that exact point in time, but when planning future actions for the entire squad it just doesn't work without a pencil and some paper.
I think this really depends on what you're trying to do. If moving an entire squad one would probably want a button similar to the "Reserve TUs for Snap Shot" but instead it limits the squad's movement to the slowest (lowest TU count) soldier to help keep them all grouped. Also if there's TU updates like with what Apoc did (running only takes 2 TUs, walking is 4, crawling is 6, selecting someone and putting a cursor over a square tells you how many TUs will be left if you move there, have certain abilities use a set amount of TUs rather than a percentage) then I think one could put TUs back into the game and not need pencil/paper to properly control your squad. I mean I used 2-4 man teams in EU/TFTD and didn't need pencil/paper to keep my squads running smoothly (I simply moved a bit slower to make sure I had spare TUs).
Putting aside the old adage that no plan survives first contact with the enemy, why not? I didn't buy their explanation for that at all. A plan like that's like fuzzy logic anyway, not rigid math, and you're still working within the framework of turns, so base it on that, not budgeting your TUs like some kind of anal retentive. Just can't see it posing a problem, never does when I play the old games, so I don't think it will if we re-jig everything to be more like the original mechanics. And if for some reason we did have to lose some of the abilities because they don't work as shot types or movement types, so what? I never asked for them anyway.
Besides, nobody's saying you have to use any mods that might come out.
I'm keen to see how my idea for an expanded AP system with metered movement turns out. I think having a max of, say, six APs that translate into a certain amount of stat-based movement each or can be used to "buy" various actions with prices up to 3 AP would be a happy medium.
That can work too. I was simply looking at how TUs could be revamped to not have squad control issues like they did in EU/TFTD. Most people don't really think about Apoc (my personal favorite in terms of actual gameplay; EU is favorite for story and overall feel), but it did a good job of at least updating squad control and TUs even if it could be improved upon.
Oh no, I agree, I was just speculating on my preferred medium level for the whole dialable complexity idea. The thing I really liked about Apoc, incidentally, was that it let you designate a spot to go to and if your guy didn't make it that turn you could tell him to continue on his way there next round.
I am not trolling, I assure you, I just want to set a few things about this statement right. For starters, EVERY xcom tactical game had units that had HP, so the addition of Health bars is NOTHING new. Second, solomon has said that the old inventory system from the original is gone, but that doesnt mean there isnt ANY form of managment. Lastly, there are plenty that would argue that Apoc had very little in common with the original 2. With so much not yet confirmed (number of bases, squad size, ect.) I think you should hold out on flaming this game before playing it or at least getting a demo. It still in alpha for gods sake. Many games make it to alpha, only to then be pushed back and redesigned. There are still a lot of things that can happen to this game between now and its release.
I think he meant seeing health bars on the aliens without using a mindprobe.
As far as I can see from articles and the podcast, you can set your troopers weapons and armour at the base, add a couple of ability-items, and that's it. Probably no tweaking in-combat, definitely no picking up dead squadmates' items, probably no ability to pick other things on the battlefield up.Second, solomon has said that the old inventory system from the original is gone, but that doesnt mean there isnt ANY form of managment.
Certainly the geoscape changed, but I think the combat was reasonably faithful and in some ways an improvement.Lastly, there are plenty that would argue that Apoc had very little in common with the original 2.
I'm pretty sure we're good to go on saying there's only one main base with some kind of detection and possibly interception extensions available, and it seems fairly certain from PC Gamer's stuff that the max squad size is 6.With so much not yet confirmed (number of bases, squad size, ect.)
True. I mean, it's not like we haven't seen other games around here get delayed due to reactions. I'm not personally holding my breath, but there's a chance.I think you should hold out on flaming this game before playing it or at least getting a demo. It still in alpha for gods sake. Many games make it to alpha, only to then be pushed back and redesigned. There are still a lot of things that can happen to this game between now and its release.
Your last point here is what Im afraid of losing. Options, 3 bursts? Or 1 good aimed? Is this new system going to offer any variation on this strategy element?
This is likely going to come from perks. For example they said that one of the options for snipers would be the "Snap Shot" option that allows them to move and then shoot instead of only having an "Aimed Shot" option that uses both the move and the shoot phase to take a shot. Or the "run and gun" perk that allows the soldier (I don't think they said the class that gets it) to shoot while moving but at a loss in accuracy.
Actually, Run and Gun just lets you fire after Dashing (ie: after using your "run" ability or moving twice or whatever "Dashing" is when capitalised). Check the first walkthrough article - you can just barely read the description.
I'd still prefer the gun-based shot types with differing numbers available per turn, personally.
But Civ is almost it's own genre. Games like Pool of Radiance and Master of Orion are not made anymore because people think that turn based can not work in a FPS or RTS gaming market. And I think that is BS. If the game was made as well as the original Xcom or the Master of Orion 2 or Pool of Radiance it will sell. And it will be awesome because of the great graphics that we didn't have 20 years ago.
I hope that the poorly-received Master of Orion 3 didn't kill the series. I'd love a chance to fire my 200 gatling laser fighters at some HD Darloks. Another Micropose classic that could use an update.
I still play MOO 2.
As for our favourite oldschool game genres and types being underrepresented, at least the indies have our backs on that. Oh, and Obsidian are asking what sort of game their fans would like them to Kickstart (though they're not making any promises) after seeing Double Fine get more than four times their asking amount from interested fans, so that's heartening.
Kickstarter is a wonderful concept.
I'd love to see more major publishers (are you reading this, 2K??) go with Kickstarter programs for stuff like remakes, or slightly "niche" genres.
You wouldn't be referring to an oldschool rebuild of X-Com would you?
Or maybe a remake of Alpha Centauri enjoyed that more than I ever did Civ
I think with the whole Kickstarter thing Obsidian is at an advantage due to being what I've heard labeled as "Publisher Agnostic". They sell their games via publishers or work with publishers or through publishers or for publishers, but it's more of a commission thing. The attraction of the Kickstarter for them is, and I quote:
I get the impression they've been chafing under publisher-mandated mass-appeal-oriented designs and whatnot.
Not just remakes, but entirely new games as well. But, where remakes are concerned? And without worrying about who owns which rights to what IPs?You wouldn't be referring to an oldschool rebuild of X-Com would you?
Or maybe a remake of Alpha Centauri enjoyed that more than I ever did Civ
Wasteland, using the same engine as Fallout: New Vegas. Not to mention, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, rebuilt using that engine.
A new Master of Orion, that isn't the steaming pile of crap that MoO3 turned out to be.
"Stars! Supernova" resurrected.
Yes, a remake of Alpha Centauri ... using some of Civ5's better points (that lovely hexagon based map setup, for example).
A sequel to Master of Magic.
Those're just "off the top of my head". I'm sure I could think of more, with time spent trying to recall the games I loved.
_Pax_
I'd love to see a number of those games make a rebirth into the modern era. Elemental was theoretically supposed to be a spiritual successor to Masters of Magic, but that was a tremendous flop. There are some old Warhammer and 40K turn based strategy games I've got laying around I'd love to see redone, but the rights on those really _would_ be a nightmare. Since I was just tinkering with Alpha Centauri today (wife wanted me to reinstall it on her comp) I was thinking that I'd have really liked a wider array of strategic resources and the newer hex based map system.
wrapping my head around Kickstarter as a funding source for new IP seems a little strange, because then the current EULAs wouldn't make as much sense. Hard to argue that you can only lease the game from the company when you helped fund it... :S
X-Wing/Tie Fighter games, with a semi dynamic campaign. In other words a dynamic campaign that's loosely woven into a story - sort of like Xcom, really.Not just remakes, but entirely new games as well. But, where remakes are concerned? And without worrying about who owns which rights to what IPs?
Wasteland, using the same engine as Fallout: New Vegas. Not to mention, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, rebuilt using that engine.
A new Master of Orion, that isn't the steaming pile of crap that MoO3 turned out to be.
"Stars! Supernova" resurrected.
Yes, a remake of Alpha Centauri ... using some of Civ5's better points (that lovely hexagon based map setup, for example).
A sequel to Master of Magic.
While we're wishing, I'd like a new game kind of like Descent 1/2. Had a massive amount of fun with those games as a kid. Never could get 3 to run properly.
Doesn't really fit to the other games mentioned, but I'd like to see a new Freespace.
GOd I loved that series.
I'd like to see space games reborn in general, not just Star Wars ones. Don't see it happening though.
Never was a big fan of the "I'm a space fighter ace" style games but understand the attraction. Have to agree with the space oriented gaming, but it poses the same problems as the idea of a true X-Com successor (and we can argue all day as to whether this will be or not) There's just so much to put in and get right that is expected of them that it's a very daunting task. And the less abstract they get, the more work there is to do. They represent a style of gaming with a very high degree of complexity and depth even if just in regards to physics. The original X-Com brought a similar degree of complexity out of space and into 'our' world, I think that's part of the reason so many people loved it, and why some of us are rather displeased by the changes.
Alas, that might have been one of the first genres to suffer from the "water it down to appeal to everyone and expand the market" mentality. 2001's "Starfighter" was fun... more or less... in small doses... but nothing up to the depth or breadth of stuff like the TIE Fighter games or even the original X-Wing.I'd like to see space games reborn in general, not just Star Wars ones. Don't see it happening though.
Funnily enough LucasArts was hiring people with "experience with space combat games", but I'd be putting my money on another Starfighter or Rogue Squadron than a TIE Fighter or X-Wing game.
Mind you, a prequel to TIE focusing on the late Republic/young Empire with all its transitional ships could be cool.
cool but awkward, most of those ships seemed to be absolute beasts or fairly useless if I can recall correctly.
Please, LucasArts, forget that Rogue Squadron rubbish!!!! A TiE Fighter and/or X-Wing game with today's technology would be all kinds of awesome!!! I'm actually mildly optimistic: Rogue Squadron wasn't really space combat from what I remember: more an on rails shooter. Whereas TiE Fighter or X-Wing were proper space combat games.
Innnnnterrresting....
.... they could even make deals, to specifically Star Wars brand various flightsticks, yokes, pedals, thruster controls, etc. Complete with the whole "heavily used" aesthetic, too.
I generally suck at flight sims, but even I would like to see a well-done X-wing style game in the SW universe, using modern tech.
I was thinking... it'd be interesting to have a flight sim with the standard "hardcore" stuff, then add a layer of easy-to-use presets activated via voice-recognition, a-la the side of Kinect I'm most interested in (waving your arms around to do stuff can go hang for most of my favourite genres, as far as I'm concerned, though I can see the appeal for more causal gamers).
I mean, how cool would it be to be able to say "Artoo! Deflectors double-front!" and actually have that happen? Definitely a selling point, and us grognards can have our fine-control keyboard interface, too.
[EDIT]: I would so buy a TIE- or X-wing-style flight control based on the designs from the movies :P
Exactly! Heads up, LucasArts - there's lots of money in this; you like money, don't you?
Reputedly, Mass Effect 3 for the Xbox will do stuff like this - you can use Voic commands to change weapons or use powers, AND, to direct your two party members to go to X place, use Y power, or swap to Z weapon themselves. Makes me very glad I got my g/f a Kinect (she wanted Kinectimals, hah).
Now picture an X-Wing style game, where you're a squadron or flight leader ... and you can USE VOICE COMMANDS TO DIRECT YOUR WINGMEN AND ASTROMECH. "Blue two, blue three, engage star destroyer left. Blue four, on my wing. R-three, boost forward deflectors" ... and whoosh, Blue 2 & 3 peel off to make a strafing run down the SD's left flank, while Blue 4 moves to provide you with support as you head down the same destroyer's right flank ... and your astromech rebalances your fighter's deflectors to the front.
No keypresses. No menus. No pausing the game to look up what to do on a "quick reference" card that takes a quarter of an hour to decipher. Just tell them what to do, and watch them bloody well DO IT.
...
Pure. Freakin'. AWESOME.
I tried the voice commands for changing weapons, reloading, and throwing grenades in the Halo Anniversary edition and there was simply too much lag from when I gave a command until it happened for it to be of any real use. I can see using it to direct people, but it's just too slow for things like I already listed.
...though my wife had fun randomly yelling out "GRENADE!" right up until I gave her the stink-eye for almost getting me killed on the last level on the hardest difficulty. And yes the delay is long enough that I could "usually" look in a safe direction from when she said it to before the game actually threw the grenade...usually...
Well, for Halo Anniversary, it would be a patch-on thing. So it might work better in ME3, given that it's being coded in right from the beginning.
Regardless, a well-implemented version of that would be awesome
It would be pretty cool, especially for something relatively simple like "X attack Y" and "Z, cover me", but I'd like the keyboard commands to be there as backup (you can push two keys at the same time or in very close sequence, but you can only say one thing at once) and for fine controls like juggling power consumption between engines, weapons and shields.
I liked Logic Factory's Ascendancy, it was such a huge game.
Ascendancy was a great early 4X game.
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