You were having a Great game. Thanks to alot of close barbs.. was it like 6 I think.. Geez.. and two close AI. And thanks to Aztec player where a noob and spawned far away (he probably didn't see yours boarders too). So far away meaning you didn't encountered him early.Originally Posted by JackHall2003
Now please uppload some more. At work and sooooo bored
*cheers*
Japan Spain should be up in minutes. It's 42 mins long, but don't get too excited, no great play involved. I've yet to watch it, but think there were quite a few noob moves in it. I also remember fielding a few phone calls during it, so apologies to the opponent if I ran the timer a bit much.
EDIT: It's now up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vERYL...1KTsH9-b_mY1X1
I just started to watch. I think that if you would have dropped your warrior in the arab trees in 3000BC you would have walk-in the next turn as he wouldn't have produce his warrior...
This trick does not seem to work reliably. I do that a lot (either at 3000BC or 3500BC) and hope that the AI does not re-assign the tile to the other tree tile. Sometimes it works, other times it does not. Could be that they got gold from a naming tile, but not at 3500BC without any warrior out.
Hmmnn... a lot of slack play, a decent opponent would have rolled me with the Spanish. (Would have rolled me full stop)
OK, Settling - should I have gone back for the 2 trees?
After taking Tripoli I uncovered 2 barbs and got neither, I thought it pointless sending warriors down, but forgot about religion.
Spending what amounts to 30g for the temples - Pointless?
I just seem to take forever to get going. I considered using the scientist on Monarchy - Was Nav a noob move?
Should I have just built a barracks and marched straight over with Vet Fundy Legions?
I used to think this, but the last 3 or 4 times I've tried, it hasn't worked.
EDIT: I really do feel like a noob uploading these, when you guys talk of 2000bc Catapults, 10 cities by 1000bc etc.
& Frelinder, that empty galley was just for you
Last edited by JackHall2003; 01-13-2012 at 09:56 AM.
you are winning to many
we should get some more games in hehehe
I haven't had time to watch any yet... but we should do some games from both perspectives. Glad to see you get some video up though. Hope you're not as lazy as me with it
Yeah, that would be cool. Just wish I could give you a better game. A loooong process getting them uploaded though, eh!I haven't had time to watch any yet... but we should do some games from both perspectives. Glad to see you get some video up though. Hope you're not as lazy as me with it
Yup. Double it if you actually edit the video. I'm dealing with much larger file sizes too!
How do you know what wonder AW will give you?
Lol.. yea that galley made me pull my hair
& Frelinder, that empty galley was just for you
I have watched it but ain't got the time to write now. As you say there was alot you could have done better but in the end decent play. Much thanks to getting fundy and 3 AI cities. I will give full analyze later
*cheers*
You get the Great Pyramid unless England are in the game (monarchy researched) then you get Great wall. It does change later in the game if engineering researched) but I can't remember the order. Hanging Gardens next maybe? Im sure pedal2M wrote a thread about it.
No settling there is fine. You only loose 1 hammer and you had fish there. Also if returning you would have been much slower taking down that first barb.Hmmnn... a lot of slack play, a decent opponent would have rolled me with the Spanish. (Would have rolled me full stop)
OK, Settling - should I have gone back for the 2 trees?
After taking Tripoli I uncovered 2 barbs and got neither, I thought it pointless sending warriors down, but forgot about religion.
Spending what amounts to 30g for the temples - Pointless?
I just seem to take forever to get going. I considered using the scientist on Monarchy - Was Nav a noob move?
Should I have just built a barracks and marched straight over with Vet Fundy Legions?
I used to think this, but the last 3 or 4 times I've tried, it hasn't worked.
EDIT: I really do feel like a noob uploading these, when you guys talk of 2000bc Catapults, 10 cities by 1000bc etc.
& Frelinder, that empty galley was just for you
You miss using scout when picking up first warr. always try to step on as much land as possible in the start for 10g
I would have tried making a walk-in with first warr while galley go back for more warrs. So you would not loose anything for trying. After getting 2 more warrs. You are thinking of putting the scout on galley again after dropping WA but don't. Thats correct but after that your scout just stand there. He must over to ther side to step on AIs trees to interrupt his prod. Fortunally for you the Arab don't make any archer and only got 2 warrs in cap although you don't take it untill 2200 BC. Thats very lucky!
Instead of heading back with galley and pick up warr u push on. in 2300 BC you get lucky and get the oportunity to go back with galley again to put on warrior but instead here again you choose to keep on going east along the coast with empty boat.
I would kill myself if going with empty boat and for example spot 7cog.. but can't grab it.. or get a walk-in oportunity but can't do it. Empty boat is almost useless. Yes you get some mapknowledge but the xtra turns it would take to put that single warr on it is soooo worth it.
After discovering empty Madrid and he had rushed that unit in it I would have sold the galley. He now knows you are there and he got galleons. Its amazing he don't sink your galley. And 30g is better then galley on bottom of sea. Also you needed that 30g to get 100g settler. You don't get your 100g settler untill 1200BC. But instead you hold on to that boat like your life was depending on it even though you needed that gold badely. (get 100g, galley for temples, barrack, legions etc..)
Spending 30g for getting the temples is totaly worth it. I would have tried doing this earlier though.
Big mistake in this game was first forgetting having fundy. You don't grab the 2 barbs with fundy warrs..
In this game popping nav with GS was great because the Spanish guy didn't controlled the sea. Which is poor especially after you pop nav. Then he knows you got math and are going to use galleons. He played very passiv.
Building barrack and go vet-funy legions is great move but In this game this worked better. Thanks to GS.
It takes time going when starting on island and you also build alot of archers to prevent galleondrops wich is correct playing against Spain and not having HA. Despite the errors it feels solid and this works against player that aint so fast/good.
GG mate
*cheers*
i didn't understand why you didn't use horses in that game. using a legion for walking 5-10 tiles to a barb is rarely a good move. one horse army wouldn't have hurt either.
no. temples in 5 or more cities are pretty cool and worth 30g IMO. and, perhaps more importantly, if you hadn't got it, the spanish would have and you definitely don't want him to get that advantage.Spending what amounts to 30g for the temples - Pointless?
I did consider HBR, but what - 3 turns at that stage and I was pretty strapped for gold, OK good chance of making it vet and 2 free horses from the barbs, but I decided It would just slow me further in the ultimate goal, a mistake? every possibility.
Thanks for the comments. I very rarely sail an empty galley - promise. And a totally wasn't expecting an empty Madrid, that would have been game over right there. & yes, I should have just sold it toward my 100g, but I've lost many a galleon/galley battle, that may have been enough for the win
I watched the first 19 minutes of the Japan game. A really terrible start is great to energize oneself! Especially against that goober. I don't blame you for not having a guy on your galley, but I don't think I've ever seen such poor reflexes. He deserved to get galley-dropped.
Good job taking the Arabs as you did. That's how you get back in the game. But working gold when there are perfectly good barbs for you to go and take doesn't make a lot of sense. I would go to fundy and send out an archer to get the gold while teching CoL. I also don't see bothering with Iron Working. If my opponent is someone good, then yes that's my goal, but this guy will probably turtle or do absolutely nothing. Attacking with legions risks bad battle luck against archer armies while expanding is a guaranteed win.*
* Yes, that's why I don't like ranked.
Mongol v Japan game with JackO is up.
RR tourney vs JackO - Mongol v Japan
I watched the rest of Japan vs. Spain. It's a bit painful to see you setting up all those legions when your opponent obviously isn't going to attack. That guy wasn't doing anything. He took no AI caps (fine as Spain), and didn't manage a tech or city lead, despite your bad island start. I would have used the scientist on Monarchy and teched Feudalism with a barracks in the iron city. I'm not sure why you didn't build a barracks. You really weren't pressed to keep up with that guy. Galleons would have been a bad call if he had any skill at all as he could have sent your armies to the deep at 3-2 (sure, that won't always win, but odds are in his favor).
I also wanted to mention that I do agree with your decision to settle with one tree, but only because it was ranked. I mean, I guess you could do the same against a player match, but you are completely doomed no matter what you do. Any decent player would be on top of you in no time and just box you in. You aren't going anywhere with a galley when surrounded by galleons.
I agree with Frelinder about taking China in the America game. It's best to just take a good cap like that as soon as possible. Much better than 100 gold because you can expand from it, if you want, you get Writing, which you really want, and you can pick up cheap techs faster.
Note also in that game you move your GH vertically on the first move and can't take the hut that same turn. Always move diagonally. I don't see why you built two warriors in that game, especially why you stayed on hammers after getting 25 gold.
A couple of notes in general. I see you leaving a lot of barbs. Take the barbs! Sometimes it's a bit clever to leave one for a few turns so you can vet up your horse army, but whenever in doubt, you should just take the barb. In the Japan game you should have taken at least one of the ones near Berlin.
I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on getting 100 gold and many warriors out and not so much on the fast horse army. The fast horse army will typically net you more gold, more territory, more caps. Don't threaten an AI that you can take within 10 turns. An AI cap is worth way more than 25 gold.
You're right. Jack should not have quit that game (Japan vs. Greece). The only small thing I have for you is your warrior was exploring to the south and there was a hill you could have climbed to meet some AI civ. I'm not sure if you noticed that or not, but instead of meeting the civ, you headed west.
If you are low on gold, you should always meet every civ you can because you can sell techs and that will get you horse army faster. You also may be able to get that AI to introduce you to other AI to find out where they are and sell your techs again. If you're doing well on gold, I can see not meeting an AI for a little bit because you don't want them to realize they aren't alone in the world and build archers (if you can't get there right away), but in a slow game like that one, always meet them. They will speed up your horse army more than you will speed up their archers.
Thank again, this is great stuff guys.
I had spotted the indians in that game & realising my HA was going to be slow thought it better to avoid contact. Your reading makes a lot more sense though.
Mongols vs. Japan - You shouldn't threaten Egypt until you know Jack is about to take them. You know he isn't because he's building a warrior in Kyoto. That cap is yours easily. I also don't understand why you're moving wounded knights templar around. Heal them! You do the same thing in the Japan vs. Spain game. You move your wounded march warrior army near Karakorum and don't attack when you could have healed and covered the same distance to attack. It seems like maybe you're over-thinking it. I also am failing to see why you wait to finish your Keshik army. Just get it out there! Jack is building a warrior. That means you have the initiative and can either take all the goodies, press him into a corner or both!
Too many archers this game. If you get into the field faster, you can find your opponent and make an informed decision on where to defend and not waste so many hammers. He wasn't going to reach your capital, so why build an archer there? FWIW, I notice Jack gets 100 gold before attacking Thebes, so I think you're both making the same mistake in over-prioritizing 100 gold. Especially with the Mongols you don't need to get 100 gold but you do need to get your units in the field very, very quickly.
yes, it was also painful for me to see you moving out of thebes with that unhealed HA (which is okay i suppose), then not attacking 3-1 which would have made you vet (i think), and then losing a turn. the alternative would've been to heal right away. the same goes for the march WA in your japanese game as thraser has already noticed. you know that karakorum is 2 tiles away and you're injured. then why do walk 1 step, lose one movement, and then lose one turn? why don't you just heal immediately?
also, in your mongol game i noticed when you walked your settler that you walked your settler straight up instead of diagonally right up which would have revealed more map knowledge and had still left open all settler movements (3500 BC).
I think waiting with egypt was the right call. However it was suspect that Jack was building warrior in cap. The agressiv settlerwalking payed of. I probably would have chicken out and settled at the treespot right before you got the hut. What I don't get though is why you didn't settle right after getting the hut. Instead you settle one turn later in a spot that aint better. Actually worse because only one watertile. Mayby the hills scared you.. I dunno.
You got your first HA going as fast as possible and getting 100g here when the oportunity was there before pushing out secon HA I think was the right call.
All in all well played..
*cheers*
I really expected JackO to take out Thebes, especially with that hill. I was a bit paranoid moving in as he had the high ground (i assumed). That's why I took the gold.
After he didn't take them, I thought I might as well get the 100g while waiting to move in.
Archers - I'll need to go back and look, but I really don't remember building any? I was going for one to stick on the galley, but didn't as I think it would have cost me a couple of turns.
Anyway, I was really nervous going into this match (crazy, I know it's a game) and it probably shows.
And point duly noted about healing
Next match is up - India vs Aztec (forum)
EDIT: One thing I've really noticed watching my games back (a lot I haven't uploaded) is how many turns I waste not managing my workers and having a city do something.
india vs aztecs
why don't you settle one spot farther north? you would have two trees and the same distance to madrid. the only reason i can think of is settling on that resource but that wouldn't pay off. you had the gold.
i think whether getting SoC before the HA and getting beijing or walking back with the HA in order to defend were the critical decisions here. your choices worked out well for you.
i think i would've turned west instead of south with the galley & HA in order to find him. i probably would've brought both HAs as well. if he had tried to attack you again, the chances that you could see him trying are great. and you had a GA so any attempts of attacking you at this stage would've probably failed.
always explore with all units on your galley.
always switch to fundamentalism as india. you can also switch back and forth with republic. definitely switch to fundy when attacking.
when you attacked you could've dropped your militia and other units where he couldn't see you instead of right at his city.
overall i think it was well played.
Not hardly. I would have had two of them before he had his first put together. I'm not trying to brag or compare myself, but simply point out the opportunity was there. With two Keshik armies and the KT, he can probably push Jack into a corner and then it's obviously game over. Waiting paid off only because Jack was having a slow game (and/or committed tactical errors of his own).
Very good point, I should have done that.
I don't really bother with tech from Karakorum and thought the mountains looked too good if the game went long.
Yes. I can see you hesitating and second-guessing (or at least that's what is being conveyed to me through the impressively emotive CivRev graphics). When you decide to attack, just do it. Your attacks seem to typically come in the middle of the turn. You'll be much more efficient if you attack at the start or end of the turn.
In the Japan vs Spain game the Mongol barb town you took grew to 2 pop and started working a tree and you left it like that until the last turn or two.
Yes he could have had first HA going one or maybe 2 turns faster if not making secon warr and sell first warr early. But no way you could have had 2 HA going at same time he put his first together. And this would not have been better.
May I ask how you would have done to push them out faster?
*cheers*
This is a pretty bad mistake. You would have had a really nice capital but instead have a fairly weak one. That marble would be good for expansion. When I got that galley, knowing about an artifact to the south, but not aware of anything north, I would have just unloaded the militia and sold it. You could rush your 2nd and 3rd horsemen that same turn.
Then when forum's horse army came in (not the greatest tactical move I've ever seen), your reflexes were far too slow. If he'd gotten march just as he killed your archer, he would have overrun both your single horsemen sitting there and then you'd be in tough shape. Probably lose your capital at least. Next turn what do you do? Move your wounded horse army one tile. It's as if you didn't travel forward in time and read all our comments before playing that game!
I'm not sure why you didn't put a choke on the forest near your capital or at least send a lookout to see if more was coming. What if a bunch of legion armies suddenly appeared? He could have walked them all the way from Tripoli and you wouldn't have known about them until they were ready to attack. Not going into Fundamentalism is pretty silly, but since Duke always makes the same mistake, I guess it's an easy one to make. Lastly, I'm not sure why you'd land a march army right next to a city you want to attack. Okay, he didn't do anything to stop you from taking his cities, but you can at least go through the motions of trying to be surprising.
If Frelinder doesn't scold you for the way you reached CoL with almost no hammers banked and virtually no gold, then he's not being honest enough. There are a few things that could have happened better there. One is that I always say working grass is a waste of time, but of course there are exceptions. One of them is when you've got 4 pop Beijing and want a settler. 2 on forests and 2 on grass will give you a free settler in 5 turns and you stay at 3 pop. But overall, putting yourself in slightly better shape to actually build settlers is a good idea. Getting to CoL quickly isn't much use when you can't even build one settler for 4-5 turns. The one on forest, one on grass thing isn't any good. That's too slow. It's better to just burn Madrid to the ground or you can bank food on grass for a couple of turns, but dropping a couple of cities to 1 pop to get your expansion really going is fine. Don't grow them, at least not right away. Just have them work a tree or sea tile and maybe you'll get Irrigation or something. Maybe it won't matter. But obviously this is why having a better capital is desirable, when possible.
How is having two keshik armies together faster than he would have otherwise gotten his first going not better? Now you're being silly.
Sure. He threatens Egypt in 2700 BC. Three turns later (just to take a stab at a point in time), he's finishing up his second Keshik hammered in Karakorum with some hammers banked in Moscow. He is producing 8 hammers + 7 gold per turn, or basically a Keshik every two turns. He also has 45 gold in the bank, but we have to subtract 25 for not having threatened Egypt and finally he has two warriors to sell.
So in 2400 BC he can have one Keshik army (having just finished horseback the turn before). He actually forms his first one in 2000 BC in the video. By then he would have 32 hammers + 48 gold, which is almost exactly enough for a 2nd army.
So perhaps the two armies would have come a turn after his first, but my first would be four turns earlier and my second would come right after his first. If you don't think things like that matter quite a lot, then I can only suggest you stop playing noobs and find a real opponent.
And that's without him taking Thebes, which he easily could have done.
Would you guys have gone for Beijing with warriors? or to the point below: -
1 warrior and straight to HBR?
Yup. You could have it done by 3500 BC and have a horseman out that same turn. America can have a crazy fast horse army.
I did think about that, just never got round to doing something about it
Definitely something I need to work on.
Honestly, I amaze myself sometimes that I'm ever able to win a 'tournament' game. Here's to lucky starts and good maps, eh?
Well you wouldn't if you were the only one who ever made sub-optimal moves, but of course none of us play perfect games all the time. I'm pretty good at the little details, but I'm given to pretty major blunders now and then and horrifically bleak starts are really my thing. You know, so much that maybe I sort of make them happen sometimes.
we're operating and criticizing at a very high level here. it's not about trying to get your level from mediocrity to good or something. it's to enhance your level from good to a higher level of good. i suppose if you did all the things mentioned in this thread consistently you would not even win 5% more of your games. that won't happen, though, because there is no perfection and everyone makes mistakes as thrasher has pointed out.
it sounds as though i am teaching you. that's not the case. i'm no elite player either. my weaknesses become gradually clearer beyond the ancient era and as the game progresses.
greece vs aztecs
why don't you galley-drop rome in anarchy? does it enhance the chances of a freeze? anyway, it could've been nice to immediately switch to republic the next turn.
later in the game you again lose one turn by walking on a hill next to a barb instead of walking right in front of it.
otherwise, i find that it was well played.
Yes, if he takes Rome in anarchy, he probably gets booted from the game. It seems as though he forgot about Democracy because he tried to declare war without changing government. Of course he should have done it the turn before when he loaded up the warrior or better yet, done it right at the start of the game. I always change government in 3900 BC as the Greeks (because you can't in 4000 BC). I have never regretted doing that as soon as possible. Democracy just doesn't have any real advantages in the first 20 turns.
The strategy in the Greek-Aztec game is actually pretty dangerous. All right, your opponent does nothing and quits. Typical ranked player. But if he were any good, expanding with a couple of hoplites and no counters is very dangerous. That hoplite on the move only has 4.5 defense. In a capital it's 7.5. Why your opponent didn't attack Rome is one of the great mysteries of the universe that can only be answered with "what, you expect a ranked player to do something intelligent?" It's better to build at least one army, then expand when you know you can safely defend. There is no worry about getting out-expanded by Aztecs when you have CoL and they don't. But there is a worry that they get a couple of your cities and now you can't expand at all and now they have CoL. I mean, sure it's great to get 4-5 cities before 2000 BC, but you have to be able to hang onto them. The only reason you could here is because your opponent didn't even try.
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