SPQR - Rise of Rome

[Maucat]

I'm playing version 26, I'm in 210 B.C. and I have Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, Massilia, Greece and Illyria and during my campaign against Carthago all others nations declared me war. I built some Legions and my gold tanks as my happiness...
It's quite impossible fight with all: Gauls, Franks, Macedons, Egyptians, Carthaginians and other Barbaric powers...
Rome in his history never fight with more than one or two enemies at time...
So I think a redesign of the basic structure is inevitable: Rome needs a strong and powerfull Army (we have two ways: few very strong units or a lot of normal units - historically in a lot of battles Romans were few and won against more numerous enemies thanks to his superiority in skill and war technology); Rome needs the possibility of very long peace treaties with other Powers to have the time to fight and crash one enemy at time as she historically made (dividi et impera...); except for Gauls (Brenno invasion...) other Barbaric Powers must be keep out of Italy until the III century A.D. as history tells us...; Also I think that the forest penalty is too big or there are too much forests in Europe... a solution should be: in forest the Legion has his standard value while in open ground (plans and hills) the Legion has his value moltiplied for 1.5 at least...(to recreate the war machines as ballistae, onagri, Skorpions ecc ecc that every legion had...).

[kevini]

The thing is that the civilized and uncivilized civs don't have to do as much research as the Roman's. So they can more than keep right up with them. Rome has little tech advantage if any over there rivals or anyone. Rome is too much of a bad boy early on perhaps. They have to since they attack the minor city states.

[Kruelgor]

Based on the feedback, it seems to be too difficult. In the next version, I'll make a little bit easier, but I don't want it to be a walk in the park. I want it to kick most of your asses. I want to make it difficult as hell for the player to equal or surpass the real Romans.

[kevini]

If anyone has some early tips on which techs or policies to pick let me know. Or just an AAR on what works best early on. It would be nice to be able to dip into democracy to get the -35% policy cost at some point. Its seems like you have so many branches that are important early on but you just can't research them fast enough.

[nigelr1812]

The Roman army doesn't need to be big just more effective to represent advanced use of weapon technology, better discipline, training and usually better led, certainly at Centurion level. The ability to make peace needs tweaking either the AI doesn't ever want to make peace or if offered they won't accept any terms but their own which means I as the human have no reason to make peace and might as well keep on fighting until I have everything I want. I have noticed when a hex has been pillaged and I come to repair the road it costs the same amount of time to repair as to fully build the road again, about 9 turns - Shouldn't a repair be quicker????

Finally, by all means rebalance the happiness part of the game but don't make it too easy for the Romans - The military aspect needs to be a challenge but the Empire building and politics side needs some more work.

But please keep up the good work because i absolutely want to see this MOD finished, it's really one of the very best

[nigelr1812]

PS The name is Nigel Roberts and just a keen amateur historian who enjoys ancient history and in fact history in general

[kevini]

If I understood the early Roman army did not allow their soldiers to marry. However in times of crisis they did raise up larger armies. It was later on that this was allowed and the army declined in quality due to this. This would have been in about the 3rd and 4th Centuries AD.

[Kruelgor]

Finally, by all means rebalance the happiness part of the game but don't make it too easy for the Romans - The military aspect needs to be a challenge but the Empire building and politics side needs some more work.

Something that can be easily missed is the completion of the Republic branch which reduces unhappiness by 25%.

[Kruelgor]

If I understood the early Roman army did not allow their soldiers to marry. However in times of crisis they did raise up larger armies. It was later on that this was allowed and the army declined in quality due to this. This would have been in about the 3rd and 4th Centuries AD.

interesting

[Kruelgor]

For policies, I personally like to begin with Class System > Lower Class because it gives cities +3 production. Helps to get new colonies to a decent start.

[Kruelgor]

Also, if you have Tax Collection in a city, remember that increases unhappiness by 30% in that city.

[Jkiller2911]

Kruel,

It's the first time i check this forum, i am also a modder(not as good as you(yet))

My current mod contains:
20 new buildings
5 new techs
5 new units
2 new era's


I'm looking forward to finding someone to build a mod together with, as in an artist, since i am extremely bad @ drawing, and all other aspects of art, but i am extremely good at coding and figuring things out.

Hit me back,

Regards,
Jkiller2911

[Kruelgor]

Kruel,

It's the first time i check this forum, i am also a modder(not as good as you(yet))

My current mod contains:
20 new buildings
5 new techs
5 new units
2 new era's


I'm looking forward to finding someone to build a mod together with, as in an artist, since i am extremely bad @ drawing, and all other aspects of art, but i am extremely good at coding and figuring things out.

Hit me back,

Regards,
Jkiller2911

To be honest, I'm not really a modder. I don't know the first thing about programming. I'm just a long time war gamer.

[Jkiller2911]

To be honest, I'm not really a modder. I don't know the first thing about programming. I'm just a long time war gamer.

Isn't this topic about you creating a mod? Or are you being sarcastic with this post?

Explaination would be great =]

[Jkiller2911]

I'm playing version 26, I'm in 210 B.C. and I have Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, Massilia, Greece and Illyria and during my campaign against Carthago all others nations declared me war. I built some Legions and my gold tanks as my happiness...
It's quite impossible fight with all: Gauls, Franks, Macedons, Egyptians, Carthaginians and other Barbaric powers...
Rome in his history never fight with more than one or two enemies at time...
So I think a redesign of the basic structure is inevitable: Rome needs a strong and powerfull Army (we have two ways: few very strong units or a lot of normal units - historically in a lot of battles Romans were few and won against more numerous enemies thanks to his superiority in skill and war technology); Rome needs the possibility of very long peace treaties with other Powers to have the time to fight and crash one enemy at time as she historically made (dividi et impera...); except for Gauls (Brenno invasion...) other Barbaric Powers must be keep out of Italy until the III century A.D. as history tells us...; Also I think that the forest penalty is too big or there are too much forests in Europe... a solution should be: in forest the Legion has his standard value while in open ground (plans and hills) the Legion has his value moltiplied for 1.5 at least...(to recreate the war machines as ballistae, onagri, Skorpions ecc ecc that every legion had...).

First of all: It's multiplied not moltiplied.

Second of all: If you are requesting a solution, i think there already is one that can be added quickly, as you could've read on page 1, there is a policy that gives every city +3 production, so that makes new cities a bit more producive, and if you make units that require low production and are weak, you'll be done fastly.

Myself, i created a unit called "Crusade", in the Christianity Era; Crusades were the strong, expierenced fighters that battled the muslims in the middle-east around the 2nd and 3rd century, and they are the typical Christian fighters.
Anyway, going back to my point, my Crusade unit contains:
6 production to create it(so new cities will take 1 turn to create it, so if you're under attack you can mass-spawn them)
10 combat strength(weak, but i am thinking about reducing this.. even though you'll only get them halfway the game when you're able to build units of 65 combat strength already)
1 move per turn(so you can make an entiry legion(would be perfect for this mod(if renamed)))
1 gold maintenance per turn(since you'll probably make 50 in < 10 turns, you should make sure they should only be temporarely, during war against multiple enemies, otherwise you'll have to delete them and have max 15 for garrison in cities and on the borders, maybe incraise the gold maintenance since at the end of the game you'll have ~5000 gold per turn so they'd beat nukes..)

Well take your time reading this

[nigelr1812]

re unhappiness last game i finished the Republic branch but i still eventually fell to -14 on opening Pax Romana which then went to -175 on discovering palaces!!!!! This game started off with democracy first before moving to Republic. But some ways to go yet to real test the impact of changes to Empire era - might have to stay as a republic!!!!!

[Maucat]

JKiller2911 I beg your pardon... but I'm not english mother language and sometimes I make some grammar mistakes... if I can write in italian I'ld not make mistakes and I can explain my ideas and suggestions more better but I think you cannot understand my thoughts...

[kevini]

I was replaying last night and on turn 50. The Macadonian Greeks all ready had 5 or 6 cities. Most of these guys are starting out with a tech advantage all ready. I visited the Franks with 7 or 8 cities or more around turn 100 ish. I took my first city state and 2 major powers declare on me. Rome doesn't have much room to expand early on until they get the tech to take out some of these city states. You get behind the 8 ball too much early on by the time you have an army after reseach and building the other guys are way way ahead.

[Jkiller2911]

JKiller2911 I beg your pardon... but I'm not english mother language and sometimes I make some grammar mistakes... if I can write in italian I'ld not make mistakes and I can explain my ideas and suggestions more better but I think you cannot understand my thoughts...

"More better", those words do not match?? Haha :P, i love correcting people don't hate the player hate the game

[Jkiller2911]

I was replaying last night and on turn 50. The Macadonian Greeks all ready had 5 or 6 cities. Most of these guys are starting out with a tech advantage all ready. I visited the Franks with 7 or 8 cities or more around turn 100 ish. I took my first city state and 2 major powers declare on me. Rome doesn't have much room to expand early on until they get the tech to take out some of these city states. You get behind the 8 ball too much early on by the time you have an army after reseach and building the other guys are way way ahead.

This may sound stupid since i am talking in this topic, but i never actually played the mod, how about i'll play it, i am a very experienced war player, i survived deity difficulty until round 300 against 22 hostile civilizations(even if they're friendly, they'll declare war for no reason, just to backstab you!)

[whoward69]

"More better", those words do not match?? Haha :P, i love correcting people don't hate the player hate the game

Please, no one feed this troll

[Jkiller2911]

Please, no one feed this troll

Screw you, go jump off your parents house, you pathetic little snail

Anyway, the game crashes after 2m of loading your map.. Maybe my comp is too slow??

[Kruelgor]

Isn't this topic about you creating a mod? Or are you being sarcastic with this post?

Explaination would be great =]

I'm not a traditional modder in the true sense of the word, in that I don't know how to create graphical units, I don't know LUA, and I definitely wouldn't know what to do with the .DLL file if they released that.

Luckily, the game developers made it easy for a layman to modify the game through XML.

So I don't consider myself a modder. I consider myself as a war gamer.


p.s. Everyone in this thread has always been respectful and polite. Please don't pollute it. Also keep in mind there are many non-English players all over the world and be respectful to the language barrier. Their English is very good for a 2nd language.

[Kruelgor]

re unhappiness last game i finished the Republic branch but i still eventually fell to -14 on opening Pax Romana which then went to -175 on discovering palaces!!!!! This game started off with democracy first before moving to Republic. But some ways to go yet to real test the impact of changes to Empire era - might have to stay as a republic!!!!!

Alright, I'll make this part a bit easier in the next version. Thanks for your valuable feedback.

[nigelr1812]

Not sure what's happening but this new game is very different. It's only 252bc, I have taken Italy and the islands with a couple of cities on the NW and NE borders but literally every civ has declared war on me and the barbarians seem to have seemingly hordes of units of equal quality, even though I now have Manipular Vs. I can't compete with the numbers, especially as as soon as I start to build enough I am suffering a massive penalty in production. I currently have only 14 legion units and 1 archer but suffering 70% production penalty. My plea is for the Romans to have an army which is commiserate with the historical outcomes and with the right quality, don't think we're there yet. I appreciate this is a challenging balancing act, so please bear with my insights - The Romans should be able to comfortable be able to fight a war on at least 2 fronts, especially early on, when manpower wasn't an issue, so i am estimating at least 12 legion units, supported by at least 2 archer and 2 cavalry units. This for me means the base supply should be higher than 6 and the numbers that can be supported as the population grows tweaked. One of Rome's early strengths compared to it's enemies was it's seemingly inexhaustible pool of manpower. This is was of the key factors for it's early survival and success. PS, none of the Civs will enter into peace negotiations with me, so the fight goes on but looking bleak already!!!

[kevini]

Rome starts with only 1 city and not much room for non conquest growth. They have to research all but 2 branches of the tech tree. While everyone else does not need research the roman branches. Thus no matter what they keep pace or are ahead tech wise. The other players start with tech and military advantages to begin with anyway and plenty of peaceful foom to expand.

[Kruelgor]

Rome starts with only 1 city and not much room for non conquest growth. They have to research all but 2 branches of the tech tree. While everyone else does not need research the roman branches. Thus no matter what they keep pace or are ahead tech wise. The other players start with tech and military advantages to begin with anyway and plenty of peaceful foom to expand.

It's easy to fix. I can crank down the AI research rate very easily.

[Kruelgor]

As far as the AI declaring war, there is an AI parameter in the Defines called AIDeclareWarProb. I will crank that down in the next version.

[kevini]

If I understand correctly the phalanx didn't work in forrest terrain either.

[Kruelgor]

If I understand correctly the phalanx didn't work in forrest terrain either.

The same forest penalty already applies to phalanx units.

[nigelr1812]

The issue re the forest penalty is that on a number of occasions poor Roman generals led their legions into ambushes, often in forest areas but this doesn't mean the legions can't fight effectively in this type of terrain. The roman sword, the gladus and Roman tactical deployment was designed for close quarter battle. When caught in an ambush situation with all routes of escape closed off and the issue of being able to deploy into battle formation was clearly a disadvantage. However, the Romans did conqueror large areas of Germany which was wooded as well as Gaul. They can't have been 50% less effective in this type of terrain and still prevailed You may wish to consider making it less (25%) to capture the fact there are disadvantages but if possible provide a promotion for fighting in forests as a unit survives this type of warfare. After all Marcus Aurelius spent decades fighting the Germans effectively and a forest fighting promotion could represent his veteran legions????

[kevini]

I did another restart and built more legacy units this time and made some early cities. I took 3 city states and then Carthage and Macedonia delcared on me. The Macedonian's had hordes of level 3 Phalanx units and 5 or 6 cities. This was about turn 120-140 something.

[kevini]

The start of the game is really the key to everything else that happens. As Rome you really have to push all out military asap. The scout ships did me no good what so ever since everyone had met every city state very early on. Last night was the first time that had ever happened. Normally I meet most of the city states first. Perhaps the first tech should be fishing then phalanx 1. Start cranking them out once that tech is finished. Build them until you are ready for about 3 settler. All the while reseach up to scout ship but have republic reseached by the time you are ready to make your 2nd city. After scout ships reseach to manipular 1.

[Kruelgor]

Perhaps the first tech should be fishing...

Yeah, I always research fishing + docks right away. Then Sun Deity, then Craftsmanship to start pumping out workshops.

[Kruelgor]

The issue re the forest penalty is that on a number of occasions poor Roman generals led their legions into ambushes, often in forest areas but this doesn't mean the legions can't fight effectively in this type of terrain. The roman sword, the gladus and Roman tactical deployment was designed for close quarter battle. When caught in an ambush situation with all routes of escape closed off and the issue of being able to deploy into battle formation was clearly a disadvantage. However, the Romans did conqueror large areas of Germany which was wooded as well as Gaul. They can't have been 50% less effective in this type of terrain and still prevailed You may wish to consider making it less (25%) to capture the fact there are disadvantages but if possible provide a promotion for fighting in forests as a unit survives this type of warfare. After all Marcus Aurelius spent decades fighting the Germans effectively and a forest fighting promotion could represent his veteran legions????

The strength of the legion is not in the individual soldier, but rather in the tight disciplined formation of the cohort chained together with other cohorts creating a wall of sturdy durable shields with thin slits between shields for the thrusting of deadly gladius swords. A formation which is virtually impossible to create in the forest, thus making the Roman Legion weak in the forest. A formation, even if assembled, impossible to counter-maneuver enemy positions.

You'll have to utilize Foederati if you're going through forest, or if you insist on taking legionary units into the forest then take a Great General or you will probably DIE! The Romans never conquered great regions of Germania, only a small part and only with the help of Great Generals and Foederati, and only to be destroyed and annihilated later.

Don't forget that the Great General is immensely powerful in SPQR giving a 50% bonus. It required a Caesar to conquer Gaul, a genius on the battlefield. Luckily, Gaul isn't nearly as wooded as Germania.

[Kruelgor]

Hmmm. Well, looks like some changes were done to the in-game Mod browser. I'm not seeing SPQR anywhere. If other mods are going to get special favoratism advertisement then I don't see any real reason to continue working on this.

I'll have to hold off for a while and see what's going on here.

[Kruelgor]

Haha. SPQR doesn't work anymore.

Will probably have to debug 1000+ bugs that have been created by the new patch. Not sure if I have time.

[kevini]

Nooooooooooo!

[nigelr1812]

I don't know what has happened with the MOD but to give up on it would be such a missed opportunity to finish creating an all time classic game of the rise and fall of Rome. After all Rome wasn't built in a day!!! I am happy to help how I can but please try and persist otherwise what will i do without this game to escape to from the relaities of everyday life. No more empires to build!!!!

[gandilan]

Sounds like you (Kruelgor) are almost accomplishing something they dont want...