Civilization V, Afterlife, Reincarnation, Time Travel, Akashic Records, God etc.

[Hawk]

But what you fail to accept is that prior to science discovering things like evolution, Christians DID take Genesis as historical truth. 40% of Americans STILL do. The only reason YOU don't is because your brain can't accept the ludicrousness of that story, so you decide "Okay, that one is a metaphor or an allegory...but other parts are real". And as we discover more and more truth through science, more and more parts of the Bible are going to seem equally ridiculous.

Are you really not understanding this very basic concept?

Evolution has so many gaps in it that it's not all that scientific itself. How did the first cell develop from nothing without being either destroyed by the sun or dissolving in the water? Why did so many complex organisms appear all of a sudden in the Cambrian period, with nothing before hand? Where are the fossils that show how gills turned into lungs? Why are the skulls of the apes that supposedly preceded man in no particular order of size (small skull is next to large skull, then small skull again, and this is how we are meant to have developed)? Why did long term experiments on flies show that all their mutants that were breed their offspring would resort back to the normal fly? Why did earlier evolutionists desperately hold onto false records, such as the Piltdown man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man ) Why do some people travel to Africa and risk their lives to save Gorillas? Why isn't survival of the fittest socially accepted as normal human behavior? Why are ancient languages often a lot more complex than modern languages?
I studied evolution to learn for myself the truth, and afterwards I was more convinced that Creationism is correct.

The Theory of Evolution has so many holes in it that it requires faith to believe in it.

[stethnorun]

Evolution has so many gaps in it that it's not all that scientific itself. How did the first cell develop from nothing without being either destroyed by the sun or dissolving in the water? Why did so many complex organisms appear all of a sudden in the Cambrian period, with nothing before hand? Where are the fossils that show how gills turned into lungs? Why are the skulls of the apes that supposedly preceded man in no particular order of size (small skull is next to large skull, then small skull again, and this is how we are meant to have developed)? Why are mutations always bad? Why did long term experiments on flies show that all their mutants that were breed their offspring would resort back to the normal fly? Why did earlier evolutionists desperately hold onto false records, such as the Piltdown man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man ) Why do some people travel to Africa and risk their lives to save Gorillas? Why isn't survival of the fittest socially accepted as normal human behavior? Why are ancient languages often a lot more complex than modern languages?
I studied evolution to learn for myself the truth, and afterwards I was more convinced that Creationism is correct.

The Theory of Evolution has so many holes in it that it requires faith to believe in it.

Sigh...when you can't respond to the substance of what someone says, pick a detail and completely redirect. I guess I'll just chalk that one up as "I concede" and move on.

[Hawk]

Sigh...when you can't respond to the substance of what someone says, pick a detail and completely redirect. I guess I'll just chalk that one up as "I concede" and move on.

Actually I'm making a point. You attack my beliefs, and say that Creationism is unscientific, and yet you have not been able to disprove the Bible, or answer all the many flaws of evolution.
Also I have already answered what you said, or do you need me to reiterate? We are starting to go around in circles.

[stethnorun]

Actually I'm making a point. You attack my beliefs, and say that Creationism is unscientific, and yet you have not been able to disprove the Bible, or answer all the many flaws of evolution.
Also I have already answered what you said, or do you need me to reiterate? We are starting to go around in circles.

Yeah that's fine. Look what's the point anyway? You certainly aren't going to be convinced by me and I seriously doubt you are going to come up with anything I haven't thought of already...so I'm fine with just leaving it here.

[Hawk]

Yeah that's fine. Look what's the point anyway? You certainly aren't going to be convinced by me and I seriously doubt you are going to come up with anything I haven't thought of already...so I'm fine with just leaving it here.

Well, provided both sides can keep civil, religious discussion is educational, deep, and a most interesting and wide subject. Still you have to want to talk about it, no one should force anyone into religious debate. I really enjoy it when neither side attacks the other's beliefs, but when they do, as you have learnt, I stand up for what I believe in, and I can see you do too. It takes a strong character to do that.

Thanx for discussing it with me.

[stethnorun]

Well, provided both sides can keep civil, religious discussion is educational, deep, and a most interesting and wide subject. Still you have to want to talk about it, no one should force anyone into religious debate. I really enjoy it when neither side attacks the other's beliefs, but when they do, as you have learnt, I stand up for what I believe in, and I can see you do too. It takes a strong character to do that.

Or just stubborn defensiveness But I get your meaning and in a way, I agree with you. As I've said a few times here in various threads, I completely respect someone's right to live and think the way they want and also my right to call them an idiot for doing so (and of course, their right to call me an idiot in return). The fact that people can do that, without violence, is what makes the Western way of life great, and at least in that regard, far superior to...certain other areas of the world.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

Why are mutations always bad?

Who said that?

Why did long term experiments on flies show that all their mutants that were breed their offspring would resort back to the normal fly?

Because they have no need to change if their environment does not. The environment provokes change.

Why did earlier evolutionists desperately hold onto false records, such as the Piltdown man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man )

Because they're human and didn't want to be wrong? I don't get what you're arguing here.

Why do some people travel to Africa and risk their lives to save Gorillas? Why isn't survival of the fittest socially accepted as normal human behavior?

People have been guilted into thinking they caused those problems, and we're large enough now that survival of the fittest doesn't apply.

Why are ancient languages often a lot more complex than modern languages?

As time goes by, we become more proficient in the creation of things - the modern car engine is more efficient than an old one. Languages are generally seen as complex because they are inefficient.

The Theory of Evolution has so many holes in it that it requires faith to believe in it.

You are confusing the layman's 'theory' with scientific 'theory'. Theory, in science, is a group of proven facts that will stand as fact until unproven. That's how all science works.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

As we know with animals, species develop from the original animal, such as the dog - there are so many breeds of dog, yet they all are related. This is not proof of evolution though, since a dog is still in the end a dog, and not a bird or fish. So basically there were a lot less species of animals around, and later they spread around the earth and the different environments assisted in developing many species. Australian wildlife is a great example of this.

Australian wildlife is so different because it has had millions of years to evolve. The separation from Gondwana, the separation from India, the separation from Antarctica - and after all these events, the animals on these differing continents began to have less similarities. Animals today would not have evolved from the simplest beings, because then we're left with about 50,000 types of animals and more than 2 millions types of insect. That's of course, assuming that they all evolve somehow into the more varied versions in five thousand years.

There is plenty of evidence that a world-wide flood occurred, such as shells being found up on top of mountains everywhere around the globe, and the fact that nearly every culture and people in every corner of the planet as a flood story.

That is not evidence of a flood - it is evidence of continental drift. The reason there are shell fossils in the Himalayas is that the shells fossils formed in the ocean north of India, which then proceeded to ram into Asia.

Adam and Eve's children would have had to marry each other...There was no one else at the time. I'm not supporting incest, but this was a necessary step at the time - if they didn't then humans would've died out. Also at the time they were much closer to perfection, since people were still living for hundreds of years at the time, so there would not have been negative effects to incest so early on.

What do you mean? I'm not objecting incest on religious beliefs, I'm doing it on scientific data. Incestual couples have a far higher rate of birth defects in their children. If that continues, the rate gets even higher.

God can look into the future if he likes, but he doesn't since that would fix the future like destiny, and so he allows for free will, which is quite a gift!

Before God created the universe he knew exactly everything that would happen. He knew about sin. He knew about the Tree. He knew about the flood. God is malevolent.

The snake is not to blame, but the spirit creature that puppeted it. It was just an animal that was fitting in Satan's opinion to use.

Doesn't matter. Satan still existed. Satan is a direct violation of God, and therefore should not be able to exist.

Lying is a sin, and that is why Satan is called the "Father of the lie". Satan himself sinned, but Satan is not our genetic forefather, and thus did not give us all sin, as Adam did via genetics.

But God allowed sin to exist in the first place.

[Hawk]

Or just stubborn defensiveness But I get your meaning and in a way, I agree with you. As I've said a few times here in various threads, I completely respect someone's right to live and think the way they want and also my right to call them an idiot for doing so (and of course, their right to call me an idiot in return). The fact that people can do that, without violence, is what makes the Western way of life great, and at least in that regard, far superior to...certain other areas of the world.

Freedom of speech, and freedom of religious beliefs is very important. There are countries where religious groups are under ban, and they have to practice in secret, so at the very least it's nice to be able to practice my beliefs in a free country.

[Hawk]

Who said that?

Because they have no need to change if their environment does not. The environment provokes change.

Because they're human and didn't want to be wrong? I don't get what you're arguing here.

People have been guilted into thinking they caused those problems, and we're large enough now that survival of the fittest doesn't apply.

As time goes by, we become more proficient in the creation of things - the modern car engine is more efficient than an old one. Languages are generally seen as complex because they are inefficient.

You are confusing the layman's 'theory' with scientific 'theory'. Theory, in science, is a group of proven facts that will stand as fact until unproven. That's how all science works.

Well can you prove that mutations that we've seen in modern science show that they are a good thing? Mutations are a hindrance to whatever suffers it.

The experimenter with the flies was very extensive, and they came up with quite a few variations of flies, yet often it was something like they couldn't fly. Their offspring returned to their normal state.

Fair enough, but my point with the Piltdown man is that they were desperate for some kind of evidence, so they fabricated some.

Guilt doesn't fit in well at all with survival of the fittest. The point is that whenever someone does behave this way they are put into prisons or punished in some way. This shouldn't be the case if evolution is true, because the priority is for our species survival, and an animal such as the gorilla that we neither eat or are eaten by, and doesn't effect our way of life at all, wouldn't matter.

By evolution languages should start very simple, and then become complicated.

Once a theory has been proven entirely as fact, and there are no holes left in the argument, it is no longer considered a "Theory" or "Hypothesis".

[Hawk]

Australian wildlife is so different because it has had millions of years to evolve. The separation from Gondwana, the separation from India, the separation from Antarctica - and after all these events, the animals on these differing continents began to have less similarities. Animals today would not have evolved from the simplest beings, because then we're left with about 50,000 types of animals and more than 2 millions types of insect. That's of course, assuming that they all evolve somehow into the more varied versions in five thousand years.

That is not evidence of a flood - it is evidence of continental drift. The reason there are shell fossils in the Himalayas is that the shells fossils formed in the ocean north of India, which then proceeded to ram into Asia.

What do you mean? I'm not objecting incest on religious beliefs, I'm doing it on scientific data. Incestual couples have a far higher rate of birth defects in their children. If that continues, the rate gets even higher.

Before God created the universe he knew exactly everything that would happen. He knew about sin. He knew about the Tree. He knew about the flood. God is malevolent.

Doesn't matter. Satan still existed. Satan is a direct violation of God, and therefore should not be able to exist.

But God allowed sin to exist in the first place.

Regarding Australian mammal wildlife there is a fossil record of how they are related. They remain a similar animal, they all stayed as mammals. As we have seen with species of animals, they do not require millions of years to do this, but can develop and change over a fairly short period of time. Not saying that the earth isn't millions of years old though. When God created the world in 6 days, they were not 6 literal, 24 hour days. Much like you can say about an ancestor "back in his day", you are not referring to just one day of existence, so we don't know how long each creative "day" was.

I have seen a documentary a while back on how there is geological evidence of a great flood. I will have to do a bit of research since I've forgotten much of the details - until then I found an interesting link: http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYo...wide_flood.htm. Still, the fact that the great flood is known around the globe by indigenous peoples is more than just a coincidence.

Adam and Eve and their children where just out of perfection. Adam and Eve had been perfect beings, and then when they left God they became imperfect, but could still live hundreds of years. As thousands of years past we are now further away from perfection than ever before.

Of course God knew of sin, since this is his universe that he created, and he set the standard of morality, and so going under that is sin. He also programmed us with a conscious so we want to be good, and we feel guilty about sinning. As we are imperfect though, God knows we cannot keep from sinning altogether, so he focuses on if we are repentant or not, and he is very forgiving with our sins when we are repentant.

In this universe that God created he could have made all the living things unable to do bad things, but by doing this he would be restricting our freedom, and we would be worshiping him not out of choice, but because he made us this way. It would be kind of like making robots or androids. We wouldn't complain because we couldn't.

[stethnorun]

Freedom of speech, and freedom of religious beliefs is very important. There are countries where religious groups are under ban, and they have to practice in secret, so at the very least it's nice to be able to practice my beliefs in a free country.

Absolutely agreed.

[stethnorun]

Well can you prove that mutations that we've seen in modern science show that they are a good thing? Mutations are a hindrance to whatever suffers it.

Hawk, just so you know, this kind of statement sort of "reveals your hand". Saying something like this shows that you don't really understand natural selection very well. I'm sure Black Gate will feel more motivated to explain why and how, but it's very clear, even for me who knows only the "broad strokes" of evolution (I read a lot of Dawkins) that you are holding onto some very very basic flaws in understanding.

"Theory", "mutation"...you don't really know what these terms mean, in terms of science and biology. Black Gate already explained what the scientific word "theory" means, and I'm sure he will explain what "mutation" means in another post, but I'm just letting you know, you are a little out of your depth on this topic.

[Hawk]

Hawk, just so you know, this kind of statement sort of "reveals your hand". Saying something like this shows that you don't really understand natural selection very well. I'm sure Black Gate will feel more motivated to explain why and how, but it's very clear, even for me who knows only the "broad strokes" of evolution (I read a lot of Dawkins) that you are holding onto some very very basic flaws in understanding.

"Theory", "mutation"...you don't really know what these terms mean, in terms of science and biology. Black Gate already explained what the scientific word "theory" means, and I'm sure he will explain what "mutation" means in another post, but I'm just letting you know, you are a little out of your depth on this topic.

Hmm, my mistake. Almost all mutations are neutral. I would like to know more on this anyway, so I'm happy to hear what Black Gate has to say - and my apologies for saying that "All mutations are bad", I know when I'm wrong...I guess it wasn't the most well thought out list, I was just jotting down ideas as they entered my head. I'll try not to let it happen again. :S (proof that I'm imperfect, lol)

Definition for "Theory": A set of assumptions, propositions, or accepted facts that attempts to provide a plausible or rational explanation of cause-and-effect (causal) relationships among a group of observed phenomenon. The word's origin (from the Greek thorós, a spectator), stresses the fact that all theories are mental models of the perceived reality.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

By evolution languages should start very simple, and then become complicated.

They started simple, got complicated, than we simplified them again. I don't understand why we're arguing linguistics. It has nothing to do with evolution, rather more with human behaviour.

Once a theory has been proven entirely as fact, and there are no holes left in the argument, it is no longer considered a "Theory" or "Hypothesis".

You're confusing theory and hypothesis. Theory in layman's terms is the same as hypothesis. In science, the word theory is the same as fact.

the·o·ry
   [thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

Regarding Australian mammal wildlife there is a fossil record of how they are related. They remain a similar animal, they all stayed as mammals. As we have seen with species of animals, they do not require millions of years to do this, but can develop and change over a fairly short period of time.

Some of them didn't, but most of them did. Also, if Australia has been separated from Antarctica for at least 60 million years, with a varying climate throughout, why wouldn't animals evolve differently to others elsewhere?

Not saying that the earth isn't millions of years old though. When God created the world in 6 days, they were not 6 literal, 24 hour days. Much like you can say about an ancestor "back in his day", you are not referring to just one day of existence, so we don't know how long each creative "day" was.

Sorry, but the Hebrew word used in that part of the Bible is the same word they used to mean the normal, 24-hour, one-rotation-of-the-Earth day. There was no "God's version of days". They were six literal days.

Adam and Eve and their children where just out of perfection. Adam and Eve had been perfect beings, and then when they left God they became imperfect, but could still live hundreds of years. As thousands of years past we are now further away from perfection than ever before.

Hmm... what does this remind me of? Tibetan Buddhism, where the age of humans differs depending on the purity of society. The first Buddha was 80,000 years old at his death, and the 34th was only 35.

Of course God knew of sin, since this is his universe that he created, and he set the standard of morality, and so going under that is sin. He also programmed us with a conscious so we want to be good, and we feel guilty about sinning. As we are imperfect though, God knows we cannot keep from sinning altogether, so he focuses on if we are repentant or not, and he is very forgiving with our sins when we are repentant.

But he knows prior whether you are going to sin and forgive him or not! The whole point of Earth being a test is a pointless waste of time on God's part - when he knows exactly what you're going to do, he still gives the illusion of free will anyway! Let's put it into perspective. If I know that taking a gun, pointing it at someone who is sitting in a chair and will not move when I point the gun at them, and then shoot them, that they will die, what is the point of the test? I can just say that said person would die. That is what God is doing - he is supposed to know everything about our souls, yet still does the experiment anyway.

In this universe that God created he could have made all the living things unable to do bad things, but by doing this he would be restricting our freedom, and we would be worshiping him not out of choice, but because he made us this way. It would be kind of like making robots or androids. We wouldn't complain because we couldn't.

But the childish God still has his followers! What does he care? Now he can play around with them like chess pieces, or Sims.

[stethnorun]

Hmm, my mistake. Almost all mutations are neutral. I would like to know more on this anyway, so I'm happy to hear what Black Gate has to say - and my apologies for saying that "All mutations are bad", I know when I'm wrong...I guess it wasn't the most well thought out list, I was just jotting down ideas as they entered my head. I'll try not to let it happen again. :S (proof that I'm imperfect, lol)

Definition for "Theory": A set of assumptions, propositions, or accepted facts that attempts to provide a plausible or rational explanation of cause-and-effect (causal) relationships among a group of observed phenomenon. The word's origin (from the Greek thorós, a spectator), stresses the fact that all theories are mental models of the perceived reality.

Yes and as BG explained, that's the layman's usage of the word. That's not the scientific usage of the word. Everything in science is a theory, and remains so forever...the disproved theories and the proved ones, thus we still have the "theory of gravity" and the "theory of heliocentrism". The theory of evolution has almost as much evidence and proof for it that the theory of gravity does. It's now considered scientific fact (and this is coming from someone that just recently took a HUGE amount of heat for being skeptical about man-made global warming on this forum last week).

I advise you to read the book "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins. He does a great job of simplifying the theory for easier consumption and showing both how amazing and how logical the theory is, along with so much evidence to back it up that your head will spin. Very easy read and super-informative. Nice pictures too

[Hawk]

It seems I stand corrected again. I am used to hearing "Theory" when referring to a "Hypothesis", such as when someone says "In theory...", and I was also taught at school that "Theory" is a "Hypothesis"...
I do remember hearing the term "the Law of Gravity" though, and am unfamiliar with people calling that a theory.

Animals change according to their kinds. They may have quite a lot of room for change, they don't change species altogether (like a fish changing into an amphibian), and we have no animals alive that are in the process of evolving into a different species, and fossil records don't help much here either.

The word "day" is used as an expression of time in that case. For example Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 describes a day to God as a thousand years. This means that a day in the Bible is not necessarily a 24 hour day. If God wanted to he could make planets in a 24 hour day, but I imagine he would enjoy his work, much like an artist enjoys the process of painting.

If you look at the amount of children with allergies, and being born with other problems or birth defects, I think you will see it's gradually becoming more common. A lot of people say that this is environmental, but just look at England during the Renascence and the conditions the people lived in then...Even in the Industrial period life in parts of the world has been horrible, yet now problems are increasing.

As I said before, God could look into the future if he wanted to, but he chooses not to. He wants us to be free - to freely choose to love him of our own accord. Love isn't the same if it's forced upon people to act this way! In other words God has given us heaps of freedom - we can even choose to be bad if we want, although he would punish us if we did so, and this is understandable too, since he has the right to make the laws and set the standard of morality, and if he didn't step in to punish then people would be getting away with all kinds of crimes, which we all agree is unjust.

God is not the one playing around with us. As stated in 1 John 5:19, the world is being controlled by Satan and his demons at the moment, and so who do you think is playing with us like chess pieces?

The good news is this will not go on like this forever, but wickedness will end soon, and earth will be back to the way it should be - a Paradise! Psalms 37:9-11, 29 says "For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more (Satan); And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it."
Revelation 21:4 says "He will wide out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore."
Isaiah 35:6 says "The lame one will climb up just as a stag does."
Isaiah 35:5 says "The eyes of the blind ones will be opened."
Isaiah 33:24 says "No resident will say 'I am sick'."
And Psalms 72:16 says "There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth."

Doesn't that sound wonderful? This is yet another reason why I follow the Bible, because it gives us hope.

[Hawk]

I advise you to read the book "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins. He does a great job of simplifying the theory for easier consumption and showing both how amazing and how logical the theory is, along with so much evidence to back it up that your head will spin. Very easy read and super-informative. Nice pictures too

I will certainly look that one up next time I visit the library. Sounds interesting!

[stethnorun]

Doesn't that sound wonderful? This is yet another reason why I follow the Bible, because it gives us hope.

I think we have, here, the real reason you believe this stuff. It's not because of how much knowledge or insight into our universe that it gives you. It's about emotion. And when it comes to that rationale, I can completely understand why you would want that in your life.

However, you can't just take the good and not the bad. What would it mean to live in a universe with an all-powerful god being? It would mean that there is no consistency, as god has clearly shown in the Bible that he can upend physics and snuff out life on a whim (he is all-powerful, after all). What happens if you are on the wrong side of one of god's decisions. Even if you are TRYING to be good, human beings are imperfect and thus, even without intending to, you could offend god. And then SPLAT, that's the end of you.

That universe (the one depicted in the Bible) sounds like a living nightmare. It's one thing when a tyrant is human. Sure he may have tanks and bombs and planes on his side, but eventually he will die or be killed. No such luck with a pissed off god.

I could go on about "that kind of universe". But the fact is, thankfully, we don't live in that universe. We live in one where logic along with random chance determines our world. We have no obligation to worship an all-powerful father figure our entire lives...we simply get to live our lives and try to find happiness, because chance doesn't favor one person over another.

[Hawk]

I think we have, here, the real reason you believe this stuff. It's not because of how much knowledge or insight into our universe that it gives you. It's about emotion. And when it comes to that rationale, I can completely understand why you would want that in your life.

However, you can't just take the good and not the bad. What would it mean to live in a universe with an all-powerful god being? It would mean that there is no consistency, as god has clearly shown in the Bible that he can upend physics and snuff out life on a whim (he is all-powerful, after all). What happens if you are on the wrong side of one of god's decisions. Even if you are TRYING to be good, human beings are imperfect and thus, even without intending to, you could offend god. And then SPLAT, that's the end of you.

That universe (the one depicted in the Bible) sounds like a living nightmare. It's one thing when a tyrant is human. Sure he may have tanks and bombs and planes on his side, but eventually he will die or be killed. No such luck with a pissed off god.

I could go on about "that kind of universe". But the fact is, thankfully, we don't live in that universe. We live in one where logic along with random chance determines our world. We have no obligation to worship an all-powerful father figure our entire lives...we simply get to live our lives and try to find happiness, because chance doesn't favor one person over another.

It's just part of the reason. I admit that I have health problems, and it would be nice to be free of them, but this is unimportant on the grand scale of things. I may feel emotion, but it's not about emotion. I, too, like to see logic in my beliefs, which obviously I feel that I do, or I wouldn't stand up for them.

God always gives plenty of warning to those doing wrong, and then acts. Would you have it any other way though? Were people can do whatever crimes they want without consequences? God always does things for a reason, he doesn't just move a mountain or split a sea on a whim, but has a logical reason behind it - this is what I have found when studying the Bible.
I think that it would be much nicer to live in a world that's peaceful, with an abundance of food, and perfect health, then having to watch wars on the TV (or, for many, live in areas effected by wars), worried about walking through town at night, know that millions of people starve and I can't do a thing about it, and living in constant pain.

[stethnorun]

God always gives plenty of warning to those doing wrong, and then acts. Would you have it any other way though? Were people can do whatever crimes they want without consequences? God always does things for a reason, he doesn't just move a mountain or split a sea on a whim, but has a logical reason behind it - this is what I have found when studying the Bible.
I think that it would be much nicer to live in a world that's peaceful, with an abundance of food, and perfect health, then having to watch wars on the TV (or, for many, live in areas effected by wars), worried about walking through town at night, know that millions of people starve and I can't do a thing about it, and living in constant pain.

And when you hear "It's all part of god's plan", doesn't some part of you wonder what kind of monster would make you ill as part of "his plan"? Sorry, but that sounds like a monster to me. I would say god has a god complex hehe.

I agree that a peaceful world would be nice, but wishing for something doesn't make it so. Again, that's solipsism. More to the point, why do you want to place control over the fate of the world on some detached father figure? Are we children, that when we spill our milk, daddy has to clean it up for us? And if he doesn't, and we end up finally cleaning up our own mess of a planet, what purpose did god serve in the first place? A dead-beat dad?

You are picking and choosing what you do and don't attribute to god. When something good happens its "god watching over me". When something bad happens, it's "the devil" or your own fault, or human cruelty...or even "god's plan" (which sounds like a pretty sick and twisted plan). You can't logically have it both ways. He is either all powerful or he isn't. He's either the reason things happen or he isn't. Picking and choosing just to make yourself feel better about life...that's not even close to a sound line of reasoning. It's just...well...delusional.

[Hawk]

And when you hear "It's all part of god's plan", doesn't some part of you wonder what kind of monster would make you ill as part of "his plan"? Sorry, but that sounds like a monster to me. I would say god has a god complex hehe.

I agree that a peaceful world would be nice, but wishing for something doesn't make it so. Again, that's solipsism. More to the point, why do you want to place control over the fate of the world on some detached father figure? Are we children, that when we spill our milk, daddy has to clean it up for us? And if he doesn't, and we end up finally cleaning up our own mess of a planet, what purpose did god serve in the first place? A dead-beat dad?

You are picking and choosing what you do and don't attribute to god. When something good happens its "god watching over me". When something bad happens, it's "the devil" or your own fault, or human cruelty...or even "god's plan" (which sounds like a pretty sick and twisted plan). You can't logically have it both ways. He is either all powerful or he isn't. He's either the reason things happen or he isn't. Picking and choosing just to make yourself feel better about life...that's not even close to a sound line of reasoning. It's just...well...delusional.

God didn't make me ill! The Bible states that unforeseen occurrences befall us all, which includes health problems. This is just part of being imperfect and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not just wishing for a peaceful new world, but I'm trying my best to be a peaceful person now that would fit nicely into that new world. I can make this world a better place just by being better myself, trying to be a good example for others (hopefully anyway), and trying to teach others to be better people themselves. The Bible taught me these principles, and that is why I recommend it to others.

This new world that we hope for, the scripture says that the meek and righteous will inherit - so humble, teachable, good people, who will not make further mess of the place. It's not about making a mess and God cleaning up after us, but we should be responsible for our actions.

[stethnorun]

God didn't make me ill! The Bible states that unforeseen occurrences befall us all, which includes health problems. This is just part of being imperfect and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not just wishing for a peaceful new world, but I'm trying my best to be a peaceful person now that would fit nicely into that new world. I can make this world a better place just by being better myself, trying to be a good example for others (hopefully anyway), and trying to teach others to be better people themselves. The Bible taught me these principles, and that is why I recommend it to others.

This new world that we hope for, the scripture says that the meek and righteous will inherit - so humble, teachable, good people, who will not make further mess of the place. It's not about making a mess and God cleaning up after us, but we should be responsible for our actions.

...You didn't respond to the part about picking and choosing, which was the whole point of that post. You saying "god didn't make me ill" and then talk about all the ways god (an all powerful, interventionist being) makes the universe good...are you really not seeing the point I'm making?

[Hawk]

...You didn't respond to the part about picking and choosing, which was the whole point of that post. You saying "god didn't make me ill" and then talk about all the ways god (an all powerful, interventionist being) makes the universe good...are you really not seeing the point I'm making?

Oh, sorry about missing that!

No, I don't agree with picking and choosing what you want God to be. It's not up to us, we should listen to what God says he is. The Bible states that God inspired it's words (2 Timothy 3:16), and so I believe that it is, and I read the Bible to learn about God, and to know what he expects of us.


Can I ask you, what gives you hope as an Atheist?

[stethnorun]

Oh, sorry about missing that!

No, I don't agree with picking and choosing what you want God to be. It's not up to us, we should listen to what God says he is. The Bible states that God inspired it's words (2 Timothy 3:16), and so I believe that it is, and I read the Bible to learn about God, and to know what he expects of us.


Can I ask you, what gives you hope as an Atheist?

I guess I don't need hope. What will be, will be and to the extent that I can affect my own life and the world around me for the better, I will do so. I don't have that emotion that yearns for hope or a "way out" or any of that. I actually love reality...I love the things I can see and interact with. I don't need the universe to be supernatural...it's already overwhelmingly impressive and amazing, just being natural.

But you didn't really answer the question. You just referenced scripture. I'm asking for you to really grapple with what I'm saying: How can god both be responsible for everything, and yet when bad things happen, suddenly its not his fault?

And honestly Hawk, I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but if you keep responding to meaningful questions with Bible references (essentially, non-meaningful answers), then I'm not sure we can really converse much further. After all, when you ask me questions, I don't start regurgitating Ayn Rand quotes at you. I take the questions seriously and I respond with genuine thought.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

Can I ask you, what gives you hope as an Atheist?

Life. I see everything around me, and the promise of the future evolution of human civilisation, and that is where I see hope. A lot of times on the internet that hope can be easily dashed away, however.

[kaybeebiscuits]

For purposes of understanding the human race better, the Kaybeebiscuits approves of this debate!

[Hawk]

I guess I don't need hope. What will be, will be and to the extent that I can affect my own life and the world around me for the better, I will do so. I don't have that emotion that yearns for hope or a "way out" or any of that. I actually love reality...I love the things I can see and interact with. I don't need the universe to be supernatural...it's already overwhelmingly impressive and amazing, just being natural.

But you didn't really answer the question. You just referenced scripture. I'm asking for you to really grapple with what I'm saying: How can god both be responsible for everything, and yet when bad things happen, suddenly its not his fault?

And honestly Hawk, I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but if you keep responding to meaningful questions with Bible references (essentially, non-meaningful answers), then I'm not sure we can really converse much further. After all, when you ask me questions, I don't start regurgitating Ayn Rand quotes at you. I take the questions seriously and I respond with genuine thought.

But what about the condition the earth is in now? I feel there is good need for hope, at least for most people, since there is so much bad going on.

I'll try to explain it better: Going back to the universal issue "Can humans rule themselves without God", it was essential for God to step out and just watch, because if he is to intervene in human government, or solving problems such as starvation and natural disasters, he would be defeating his own argument, that his creation needs him to rule it. So what we've seen is thousands of years without God stepping in, but he did do some big things for us...He left us the Bible, which is our guild book, and reminds us of our hope, and he sacrificed his son for us. As I explained earlier, Adam was perfect, so the only possible ransom equal to pay off human sin was another perfect human to succeed in not sinning and then being sacrificed. It was explained to me once that when Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden they were clothed with animal skins - and this was symbolism that blood was needed to cover sin. Anyway, now we have seen all kinds of governments, and even Anarchy, and we have seen that none solve all our problems. Some are better than others, and some are pretty good, but they still can't feed everybody, house everybody, and treat all the sick, and stop all crime, AND keep freedom for all. God can do all this, and he will once he has stepped in in a short while, and removed all wickedness, and taken back control over the world. The Bible also shows the signs of the end of this wicked system, and they are very interesting! Let me quote them:
Matthew 24:3-14 "While sitting on upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him (Jesus) privately, saying "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads you; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. The people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. The, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
...This is all in the process of happening now.

With using scriptures I am simply allowing God to answer himself - at least that's the way I see it. I am putting a lot of thought into this, but I feel that my word along has a lot less weight to it than if I use God word.

[Hawk]

Life. I see everything around me, and the promise of the future evolution of human civilisation, and that is where I see hope. A lot of times on the internet that hope can be easily dashed away, however.

But what if the human race was to go too far? Could we become extinct? Will we destroy this planet? A lot of people worry about these things.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

But what if the human race was to go too far? Could we become extinct? Will we destroy this planet? A lot of people worry about these things.

Both things are true. We will become extinct. We will destroy this planet.

[stethnorun]

But what about the condition the earth is in now? I feel there is good need for hope, at least for most people, since there is so much bad going on.

I'll try to explain it better: Going back to the universal issue "Can humans rule themselves without God", it was essential for God to step out and just watch, because if he is to intervene in human government, or solving problems such as starvation and natural disasters, he would be defeating his own argument, that his creation needs him to rule it. So what we've seen is thousands of years without God stepping in, but he did do some big things for us...He left us the Bible, which is our guild book, and reminds us of our hope, and he sacrificed his son for us. As I explained earlier, Adam was perfect, so the only possible ransom equal to pay off human sin was another perfect human to succeed in not sinning and then being sacrificed. It was explained to me once that when Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden they were clothed with animal skins - and this was symbolism that blood was needed to cover sin. Anyway, now we have seen all kinds of governments, and even Anarchy, and we have seen that none solve all our problems. Some are better than others, and some are pretty good, but they still can't feed everybody, house everybody, and treat all the sick, and stop all crime, AND keep freedom for all. God can do all this, and he will once he has stepped in in a short while, and removed all wickedness, and taken back control over the world. The Bible also shows the signs of the end of this wicked system, and they are very interesting! Let me quote them:
Matthew 24:3-14 "While sitting on upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him (Jesus) privately, saying "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads you; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. The people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. The, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
...This is all in the process of happening now.

With using scriptures I am simply allowing God to answer himself - at least that's the way I see it. I am putting a lot of thought into this, but I feel that my word along has a lot less weight to it than if I use God word.

I noticed you say things such as "It was once told to me that..." Forget what other people have told you. Forget what the Bible has "told" you. Just think these concepts through, as you would anything else in life. There are some pretty large logical holes in almost everything you say. The reason you feel unsure using your own words and you feel the need to keep going back to scripture is because on some level, you know there are contradictions left right and center in the Bible and even the concept of god.

You words, your independent thought (not "what someone told you"), your own deductive reasoning means EVERYTHING. Your ability to quote scripture and to have others speak for you means nothing. You've got to take more ownership of your mind. Life and reality is a puzzle...a huge, wonderful puzzle. And you can figure it out and navigate it using NOTHING more than your own reasoning. You don't need the Bible or priests or anyone else. You have that power within you.

Now, I've got to get to bed, and frankly, this isn't the best forum to even have this discussion. If you want to look me up on steam, my username is "stethnorun". I'd love to talk about it with you further, but in a more conversational way, not in an internet debate, because you seem like a good guy.

[stethnorun]

Both things are true. We will become extinct. We will destroy this planet.

Wow...way to be a Debbie Downer! I give us at LEAST 50/50 odds

[Hawk]

Both things are true. We will become extinct. We will destroy this planet.

Then how can you have hope if it's all going to end?

[Black Gate of Mordor]

Then how can you have hope if it's all going to end?

Because it's going to end anyway? We have anywhere from 500 million to 1 billion years until this planet is unable to sustain life. I'm sure we'll have killed ourselves before than.

[Hawk]

I noticed you say things such as "It was once told to me that..." Forget what other people have told you. Forget what the Bible has "told" you. Just think these concepts through, as you would anything else in life. There are some pretty large logical holes in almost everything you say. The reason you feel unsure using your own words and you feel the need to keep going back to scripture is because on some level, you know there are contradictions left right and center in the Bible and even the concept of god.

You words, your independent thought (not "what someone told you"), your own deductive reasoning means EVERYTHING. Your ability to quote scripture and to have others speak for you means nothing. You've got to take more ownership of your mind. Life and reality is a puzzle...a huge, wonderful puzzle. And you can figure it out and navigate it using NOTHING more than your own reasoning. You don't need the Bible or priests or anyone else. You have that power within you.

Now, I've got to get to bed, and frankly, this isn't the best forum to even have this discussion. If you want to look me up on steam, my username is "stethnorun". I'd love to talk about it with you further, but in a more conversational way, not in an internet debate, because you seem like a good guy.

The thing is I decided my beliefs for myself. I'm not following the Bible because some priest told me to, or because of my parents, or anyone else for that matter, but I made my own decision.
I quoted what someone I know told me because I thought it was interesting, and so I brought it up. Also, since the Bible is what I believe in you can understand why I would quote it quite a bit, and point out scriptures I know to defend it...This is much more effective than if I was just to say that the Bible is scientific and not use the Bible to prove this, but find other books to quote.
You may feel there are holes in the Bible's teachings, but it all makes sense to me...This is why I'm here now, defending it. I wouldn't do this if I was sitting on the fence, unsure about my beliefs.
You say there are contradictions in the Bible left right and center, so could you point some out using the scriptures?

Thanx stethnorun, my user name of Steam is "Bigmore". Hope to catch you on that, I've really enjoyed our conversation!

[Hawk]

Because it's going to end anyway? We have anywhere from 500 million to 1 billion years until this planet is unable to sustain life. I'm sure we'll have killed ourselves before than.

That sounds depressing. In other words if I was to have kids, and they were to have kids, sure we may enjoy life now, while it lasts, but one day my family, along with everybody else, will be dead. With the Bible I can give people hope to keep going, but what do you tell those who are depressed and in terrible circumstances to get them back on their feet if that is what you believe in?

[kaybeebiscuits]

One of the representatives of the collective entity known as "Kaybeebiscuits" has a promulgation to make, and has thus decided to channel this message though the Kaybeebiscuits medium:

"Why the fear?

The soul is immortal.

We can just reincarnate again!

There are other universes to reincarnate in!

If all else fails, just create a new one to reincarnate in!

If that fails, who cares about reincarnation when you are immortal?"

And that is what the Kaybeebiscuits has wanted to channel! Ah don't ask me if it is right or wrong yah! I am just channeling the message!

*chews on delicious kaybeebiscuits*

*offers you all one*

Want some?

[mwallyn]

But what you fail to accept is that prior to science discovering things like evolution, Christians DID take Genesis as historical truth. 40% of Americans STILL do. The only reason YOU don't is because your brain can't accept the ludicrousness of that story, so you decide "Okay, that one is a metaphor or an allegory...but other parts are real". And as we discover more and more truth through science, more and more parts of the Bible are going to seem equally ridiculous.

Are you really not understanding this very basic concept?

Wrong again. Referring to the Catholic Church once more, never in their history have they advocated a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. Not once. Even back in the early days of Christianity, most early Doctors of the Church understood that Genesis was a massive allegory, and thus should not be taken literally from a historical standpoint. The whole "Young Earth creationism" business got started with Martin Luther and the Protestant reformation, due in part to the fact that they rejected all tradition and magisterial teaching in favor of studying the Bible exclusively. That said, that still leaves about 1500 years of Christian history where this was NOT the case. There's also a such thing as context. Early biblical scholars knew that Genesis was an attempt to understand the creation of the world and bring meaning to their faith, with little bearing on actual happenings. Biblical scholars study the context of each book of the Bible so they know what should be taken at face value (i.e. the Gospels, Acts, etc) and what should be viewed as an allegory (Genesis, Revelations). This isn't to say books like Genesis and Revelation are completely worthless; they hold a great deal of theological value in terms of shaping the beliefs and values of Christianity. They are not, however, ever intended to be historical documents or scientific fact. Its also worth pointing out that another 40% of Americans believe that the Earth was created over billions of years and humanity evolved over that time but believe that God had a part in it. Religion is not irreconcilable with science.

Regarding the usage of "days" in the story of Genesis, the original writers knew that the world was not created in six days. Even if it were, elsewhere in the Bible, God says that all time in heaven is basically relative, that one second is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one second. The use of "Days" in Genesis is simply to give a general sense of chronology when things were being made, not an exact interpretation of the powers and times at work.

When it comes to picking and choosing (be it concerning God, Hell, the Bible), it is admittedly a serious problem among many Western sects of Christianity. However, many other institutions strive to combat this behavior and keep an active eye on all of scripture, not just parts most people like.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

Regarding the usage of "days" in the story of Genesis, the original writers knew that the world was not created in six days. Even if it were, elsewhere in the Bible, God says that all time in heaven is basically relative, that one second is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one second. The use of "Days" in Genesis is simply to give a general sense of chronology when things were being made, not an exact interpretation of the powers and times at work.

My point still stands. The original authors may have known that, but they still used the Hebrew word that described the 24-hour rotation of the Earth. Whilst, of course, I believe they had another word elsewhere in the Bible used to describe the Biblical day you are referring to - they did not use it in Genesis, however.

[stethnorun]

Regarding the usage of "days" in the story of Genesis, the original writers knew that the world was not created in six days. Even if it were, elsewhere in the Bible, God says that all time in heaven is basically relative, that one second is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one second. The use of "Days" in Genesis is simply to give a general sense of chronology when things were being made, not an exact interpretation of the powers and times at work.

Where are you getting that?