Tips and Tricks (and strategy)

[baronvoncp]

I've been a diehard Civ player since Civ 1. I've only played in 2 Civ world games so far (i wasn't in the closed beta), but I come to share my experience and advice. I realize that the game is full of casual (and cluless) players, and many of these tips wouldn't be possible without them in the game. Some of these may be somewhat exploitative in nature, so maybe we can discuss the need for change.

2 man, Interior Minister abuse(?)
This seemed fairly obvious to me the first time i saw the mechanic. I tried to find some discussion on it but I was unsuccessful. Basically you and your cohort team up and bank harvest, until one person can take Interior Minister (by building a Ginormous Granary for example). You should be able to do this with starting resources/working the market/bubble popping fairly easily. Interior minister then uses all harvest giving the other member an equal number of free harvest. 2nd member then takes Interior minister and repeats the process. With the proper tech planning, this can go on for a very large number of harvests. Even without it is relatively simple to get 3-4 iterations pretty painlessly.

The concept still applies for 3-4 person civs, it just becomes less efficient.



next post - Science Maze (i realize this is going to get really long, so I'm breaking it up)

[Glinda]

The civ-hopping diplomacy time-out makes this a less attractive strategy, but sure, especially in smaller civs, people definitely plan to let the person with the most harvests take interior minister.

When unused harvests made for a slower trickle rate, this was not as good a plan.

[baronvoncp]

The civ-hopping diplomacy time-out makes this a less attractive strategy, but sure, especially in smaller civs, people definitely plan to let the person with the most harvests take interior minister.

When unused harvests made for a slower trickle rate, this was not as good a plan.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but there is no civ hoping. Ideally you close borders as early as possible. Interior minister is taken by being the first to build a Ginormous building. So you build the granary before you cash in harvest, then he builds the lumber mill and cashes in his harvest + the free ones. You then build the library... etc etc

[baronvoncp]

The Science Maze
There are some things that aren't exactly intuitive involving the science maze. First of all, you can backtrack, exit the maze, and enter from a new point at no move cost. This is useful for picking up some of the dead end bonus beakers.
You can also "Start Over" and have all your moves refunded. This will allow you to find the shortest path relatively easily.

If there a lot of people in the maze you are working on, it is likely that the bonus beakers have been taken. It is probably more efficient to switch techs, finish an uncontested maze, and then transfer the science to the desired tech. Just be careful of completing an unwanted tech.
aside: why are people sitting in the maze idle? if you cannot finish the maze is it not best to "start over" and have your moves refunded and come back later?

[random user]

They have already accounted for this. There is some sort of cooldown in place (though I don't know the exact details). If you are in a 2 person civ and are interior minister, your partner will not get all of your harvests. I believe you need somewhere around 6 to 7 people in your civ for none of your harvests to be "wasted."

I don't know if the cooldown is time-based or number based or something else, though. Waiting about 30 seconds between harvests doesn't seem to up the number, however.

[Glinda]

Maybe I wasn't clear, but there is no civ hoping. Ideally you close borders as early as possible. Interior minister is taken by being the first to build a Ginormous building. So you build the granary before you cash in harvest, then he builds the lumber mill and cashes in his harvest + the free ones. You then build the library... etc etc

Yes, I get that, but a civ with only 2 people is going to struggle to win era victories. I can get why you would hop out of a larger civ to do this once or twice during the course of a game, but if it's your entire strategy, I don't see you winning in a game with one or two other civs of active players.

Science:
Bonus beakers don't get "taken" by other players. You WANT people from your civ in the same maze as you when you complete it, because that sends them the small bonus (the one under the big bonus that says "civ" before the number).

[baronvoncp]

They have already accounted for this. There is some sort of cooldown in place (though I don't know the exact details). If you are in a 2 person civ and are interior minister, your partner will not get all of your harvests. I believe you need somewhere around 6 to 7 people in your civ for none of your harvests to be "wasted."

I don't know if the cooldown is time-based or number based or something else, though. Waiting about 30 seconds between harvests doesn't seem to up the number, however.

Ok good to know. I would say that it is still good practice to take advantage of the idea even if it is not 'infinite'

[random user]

Also in regards to mazes, your civ members give you a glimpse of the 3x3 grid around them if they are in your civ, so it's not totally useless.

[baronvoncp]

This is for the early game. And in my limited experience, I have typically prefer playing in smaller civs. Remember, I only have open beta experience so I have yet to witness a large-organized civ.

My current game, the first 4-5 era wins went to the large civ. But once I built up a solid infrastructure I was able to out produce/tech/gold the large civ basically alone. I'm in first place now by a pretty hefty margin, and there is little any of the other civs can do to stop me. Again, the game is filled with people with little understanding of the fundamentals of the game. A single one of my farmers is producing more (46) than several of the other 5 population (lol) nations combined output, which is sad.

[A Screaming Clear Area]

Also, if you know which way you need to go in the maze there's no point in resetting. I know how many moves I need to reach the closest bonus beaker in all mazes for my currently researchable techs.

[Glinda]

Okay, so given your current experience, your tiny civ strategy works. The smallest successful civ I was in had 4 players, and when one of them left, it was REALLY tough to win battles with only 3 people. In a game where more people know what they are doing, I think you will find 2 people is just not enough to keep up.

[JingL]

Yes, like other people said, there is 2 "dummy accounts" in every nation, so a 2 men team will only see an average of 1/3 of the harvests being transfered to the other team member. It gets more useful as the amount of players increases in the civ.

[baronvoncp]

Okay, so given your current experience, your tiny civ strategy works. The smallest successful civ I was in had 4 players, and when one of them left, it was REALLY tough to win battles with only 3 people. In a game where more people know what they are doing, I think you will find 2 people is just not enough to keep up.

I never said that you should run 2 people all the way through. The 2 person idea was in regards to interior minister abuse which it is now clear does not create some infinite loop of harvesters.

It is obvious that having 12 people organized and working together would be better than 8 which would be better than 4 etc etc. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue.

I am saying that having a group of 4 coordinated people is better than having 4 coordinated and 4 lame ducks.


My current game has 8 members, but 3 where late additions from independents that don't contribute much of anything. (at least they get on to vote). And one defector from the large civ who was frustrated with their lack of focus.

[dart27]

Not that I'm any kind of civ-god, as I've seen some folks here claim - but it is very possible to do quite well, sometimes even win with 2 players. Done it a few times myself. In fact, "back in the day" it was quite common. It became a bit harder when they put in the "dummy accounts" on the harvest sharing, and then harder again when the minimum number of GP's required for mini-wonders was reset to 2 minimum.

The biggest tip I can give is to play with good players, coordinate your civ's actions, use a balanced strategy, and take advantage of others' mistakes. Oh, and don't sleep. Seriously, I enjoy playing in a small civ, 4-6 is about ideal for my tastes. More than about 8 and I get overloaded by too much information, but I've been successful in civs as large as 20. As long as there is communication between the players even large max size civs are playable.

[JingL]

It is obvious that having 12 people organized and working together would be better than 8 which would be better than 4 etc etc.

Actually no. Toward end game, the gift from finishing a maze to other civmates gets so important in generating maze moves that a 4-5 members civ actually researches faster than a 15 people civ. Same for voyage of discovery's benefit. Also, even 12 active members are quite hard to organize, you are much more likely to see errors being made, people going offline sitting on important techs needing to be finished, votes not able to be passed instantaneousely... Of course, battles are usually somewhat easier in large but organised civ, and so is getting gps for culture wins.

You seem to really get the game fast btw Boronvoncp, I'm impressed.

[Any Ony]

Yeah, especially with Voyage of Discovery I think that the science bonus per member is reduced too much in larger civs because its so difficult to organize efficiently in a large civ. It should be somewhat smaller, but not as much of a difference as it is probably.

[Glinda]

At the moment, I think it is impossible to figure out how well a civ is doing, since so many games are so crippled by the missing King bug. In game 302, everything my civ does gets credited to another civ, which has about 6 people in it. They may be under the impression that they are super players.

[Joshua Adkins]

Im currently in my first game and doing very well but the Civ I am in is Max size and extremely disorganized. There is only about 5-6 of us that have some idea of how to play. Anyways I would love to try a small organized civ for all the reasons listed above, but Im afraid I will lose my fame points if I leave my Civ.

Ok now to actually add to the discussion. Does the Interior Minister give 1 harvest for his every harvest. Cause imagine a 6-7 person Civ that use FB to buy only extra harvests. Thats like at least 20 extra harvests per person right there. Thats what Im talkin about. I want to be a part of a Civ that organized

Im in game 574, I think. Currently leading with 270+ fame and next closest is around 200

[lilserf]

Joshua: you don't lose fame, but you join your new civ as the most junior member, so you have to win medals to move up the ranks to the Ministries and such again.

My quick advice:
Merchants are not always the most effective way to get money! Let's say I can either make a 40 Merchant (sounds awesome, right?) or a 20 Scientist. 40 Merchant sounds like the better way to go - but if Science sells for more than $200, it's better to invest in Science! Now, this is purely talking about the cash you get - obviously there are other side effects like Scientists also giving you maze moves that make it even more complex.

It pays to keep a close eye on the market - hammers, food, science, or even culture MAY be a better investment than making a Merchant! All of this assumes you're willing to sell the resource and that you adjust to changing market conditions, of course.

[baronvoncp]

Actually no. Toward end game, the gift from finishing a maze to other civmates gets so important in generating maze moves that a 4-5 members civ actually researches faster than a 15 people civ. Same for voyage of discovery's benefit. Also, even 12 active members are quite hard to organize, you are much more likely to see errors being made, people going offline sitting on important techs needing to be finished, votes not able to be passed instantaneousely... Of course, battles are usually somewhat easier in large but organised civ, and so is getting gps for culture wins.

You seem to really get the game fast btw Boronvoncp, I'm impressed.

As I mentioned, civilization has been with me for a very long time. The concept of population and resource management is not new to me. I think people need to realize that every course of action in this type of game has significant opportunity cost.
Sure, building that library and learning writing got you the era win. Are you better off than the civ that built granaries and increased their population? Sometimes!

There are several paths a game can take, and the best decision makers (who also have knowledge of the fundamentals) will always wind up on top.

One question, who in the heck is selling great people? I am getting them way too cheaply. I guess that comes down to decision making and opportunity costs again lol. The market is a new element to the game for me, and it seems very unforgiving to the inexperienced player.

[Any Ony]

I believe the price on great people automatically drops some over time if nobody is buying them. Some people will sell ones they don't want high as well in order to buy all of one type to maximize production, typically getting all the prophets or builders they can to maximize food or production.

[baronvoncp]

Merchants are not always the most effective way to get money![/B] Let's say I can either make a 40 Merchant (sounds awesome, right?) or a 20 Scientist. 40 Merchant sounds like the better way to go - but if Science sells for more than $200, it's better to invest in Science! Now, this is purely talking about the cash you get - obviously there are other side effects like Scientists also giving you maze moves that make it even more complex.

I'll take it a step forward and say that merchants are never the most effective way to get money. Especially while people still don't know how to make their own food and hammers. Where are people getting this money to buy my food and hammers at ridiculously high prices? From making merchants? Probably from selling me the great person they just popped...

[ahtrap]

My quick advice:
Merchants are not always the most effective way to get money!

To expand on lilserf's comment...Merchants are (almost?) NEVER the most effective way to make money. I'm usually among the money leaders in the games I play, and I almost never build banks/markets. 100 prod is usually worth 300-400 gold, so if your houses can generate 100 of each, make the prod, and sell it for 3-4 times the gold. Science often gets higher than 200 per, and as lilserf pointed out, even culture can be worth more. So, if you were to ask me, harvesting gold is a useless, inefficient exercise. You can use the prod you'd have to build banks to create structure that can translate to significantly more gold.

[Joshua Adkins]

I completely agree with all of you. The only things I produce is Food and Prod. I do have a Museum, Bank, and University placed in high yeilding spots around a Palace Green but only use them to win contest when they come up. The rest of the time all my houses are producing whichever is worth more at the market. This first game for me has actually been pretty wasteful though. I've wasted way more prod then I should have just finding optimal positions for farms and such. I will say this though. Whoever made that guide at Civ fanitics is a STUD and I am truely thankful. I learned so much from that thing. Anyway If anyone could share there optimal farming setup I would appreciate it. Heres what I currently use. P=pasture H=house G=Granary

The following won't post like I wrote it, it pushes everything to the left but you get the idea I corrected it using periods

P P P P P
P P P P P..... This is what I started with as it lets 3 houses farm 40 food pastures
P P G P P..... I understand that a 1/1 Granary/House setup would be better but
..H H H....... thats a later game setup.

I do have some locations that uses only 2 houses and a granary that takes advantage of the 3.5 move small triangle from a 35 pasture source. It happens to be my highest yeilding farm. But the only way I can get a higher resource count is from the rare 45-50 Orchard.

So A quick recap of what I would use if I did a 1/1 granary/house ration

G P=35..... this lets me farm from a 35 source at a 3.5 moves
H

or

P=40..... this one lets me farm a 40 source at 4 moves
G
H

I finally realized that your citizen's happiness doesn't really have an upper limit. Even at the highest stage, their production can still be improved from happiness sources, such as

P P P..... P P P
P P P..... P P P..... T= tree or forrest
P G P..... P G P..... R= river or water
T H T..... B H T..... B=bare/blank or another house
R R R..... R R R

I would typically get 2 more yeild from the setup on the left than the one on the right. And Yes that is with the hanging garden's +1 happiness bonus. Like I said my civ is very unorganized so I've never been able to test with a + happiness Civic also but I can only assume that it would still increase efficiency.

I posted this so I could get the good players opinions on what is the most efficient setup. Again not counting the rare 45/50 food Orchard. Opinion and Suggestions please.

[Glinda]

It depends a bit on your land, but you can use water squares to make your pastures more efficient so your farmers have less distance to travel to get to the highest yield. Also, they will run ACROSS water (!) so it is possible to have a water square between the house and the pasture.

[Joshua Adkins]

Glinda, do you have any indepth knowledge of running across water.

For instance:

Does it cost more than 1 move to run across water that doesnt have a road.

Does running across water with a road only take one move.

I guess this would be really easy to test, when I can actually log back in to play.

[Lelden]

I actually have a farmer who would rather run over water to a 45 pasture than walk next door to a 35 pasture, so cross river pasturing might be the way to go. I haven't tested it much though. (The granary is right next to the house and 1 space from the 35 pasture and 2 spaces from the 45 pasture.)

[random user]

I have actually found a use for merchants!

If you are in the very last half era of the game, and you are trying to get an econ victory, and you have sold everything down to 10, and you have harvests left, then change your workers to merchants and harvest!

Otherwise, yeah. Pretty useless.

[Glinda]

Glinda, do you have any indepth knowledge of running across water.

For instance:

Does it cost more than 1 move to run across water that doesnt have a road.

Does running across water with a road only take one move.

I guess this would be really easy to test, when I can actually log back in to play.

Yeah, I have been trying to log in all day to get a screenshot of my water-running guy, but no luck. Someone also suggested that farmers prefer a bridge, but it's not clear if that improves their yield, or not.

[Ginger Snap]

I actually just tested this in game. I moved a farmer across the water from his Orchard. His productivity dropped to 35. I built him a bridge from House to Orchard. No change in productivity; still 35.

[Joshua Adkins]

Hrmm. thats a little disappointing. Well atleast we know we that water doesnt have to be considered an obstacle.

[Ginger Snap]

It does seem from my testing that building a bridge will sometimes make a difference to the actual route the Farmer walks on screen. However, I suspect that game calculates productivity separately, based on the theoretical shortest route. Still not 100% sure on this if anyone wants to play around with it.

[lilserf]

Merchants are also useful to generate guaranteed income while you're not logged in (since you can't be there to monitor the market, adjust, and sell). But even then you're probably better off making Science or Production or Food - they're likely to sell for more whenever you do finally log in.

[Glinda]

Yeah, just tried the bridge thing on my farmer and it didn't have any effect. Got a nice pic of him running across the water, though.

[tapinder]

Yeah, just tried the bridge thing on my farmer and it didn't have any effect. Got a nice pic of him running across the water, though.

glinda ..u can please tell me how u got so much high productivity from scientists .. ? any help will be appreciated..

[Ginger Snap]

The key to high productivity is multipliers from Wonders, Civics, and Great People.

Otherwise, all you can do is build a Ginormous Village Green with an adjacent Ginormous University, in a location with lots of trees/water for Happiness.

[omnimutant]

Separate granaries for each farmer(separate forges for workers etc.) will increase their productivity slightly as well, though it costs more and take more time to really set up nice.

[Rafał Kozyra]

sory for second post my mistake

[Rafał Kozyra]

Workers production...

[leungclj]

P P P..... P P P
P P P..... P P P..... T= tree or forrest
P G P..... P G P..... R= river or water
T H T..... B H T..... B=bare/blank or another house
R R R..... R R R

BE CAREFUL with this setup now, because there is a bug where you can only build 100 buildings at a time. As for me, I went for 100% food farm with all 13 of my population, and i have over 100 buildings already. Your 101 building will cost you but give you nothing back.

And yes, i think thats a very efficient set up, but not the most efficient, highly dependent on terrain.