http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBtREFzS6XE
Game 2
Merry Christmas all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBtREFzS6XE
Game 2
Merry Christmas all.
Thank you santa duke!
Well, that was pretty lucky. Liam still should have tried considering you had no defenses and didn't switch to Fundamentalism (guess your game against TyShine taught you nothing). But the water in between your caps saves you. I don't think he could have won. You might lose Delhi but that doesn't matter because you do fine on the other island.
The other thing that leaps out at me here is that I hate having fog two tiles from my cap for that long. I probably would have started with two warriors and hoped to crack a galley from the first barb. As nobody was close, both methods are about equal.
I also would have gotten legions before CoL on the theory that repelling an attack = winning, given your 300 gold.
Finally, you should consider trying to play faster. You wound up not attacking a barb with a warrior one turn, not moving a settler another turn and not moving your caravan at least twice as the turn ran out. And why didn't you send the caravan to the Zulu before taking Zimbabwe? That was pretty silly.
Just wait and see how badly I played in a game against Dan. It's actually quite embarrassing at times. I think once I got 7 cities I just kind of turned on auto pilot. Never a good thing.Originally Posted by elthrasher
Thanks Duke.
Two things. When you popped BW from that hut you were still in ancient and had 250 gold. I would have rushed a barrack in cap and either another galley in your 100g city or an archer there. Also the right strategy with this much gold would probably be going straight to math and then nav. Getting Col wasn't neccesary here because you were making enough science and had so much gold so you didn't realy needed more cities. Getting Col would just dealy your attack. I belive that 2 LA 1 CA and 2 AA would have been enough to win that game.
Good start again. I can understand that Liam gets frustrated when he get messages that you firts get KT, then Koyto and 7Cog within the first 12 urns.
*cheers
Against any other opponent, I agree, but against Germany? If he attacks at the wrong time, his forces just get chewed up by a bunch of legions. I would get my own legions to deal with the inevitable attack and then expand. If the attack doesn't come or if my opponent is expanding, then I'd attack. With that 300 gold, Duke has high ground and wins by default unless Liam can pull something off. Duke spending the entire wad on an ill-fated attack is just what Liam needs.
Even going on the attack, I wouldn't use cats. Legions are plain better because Liam isn't going to be building a bunch of archers (or if he is, he's so easy to beat we don't care) and Duke has Fundamentalism. 13.5 is going to win every battle. No need for 22.5.
Yes you are right in that it might not be enough if attacking at wrong time and wrong city. However I do think a CA is very helpfull. yes 13.5 is enough but if he got one vet AA he probably needs to to attack that with atleast 2 legions to take it down. and then he might have 2-3 LA aswell in that city. The 2 LA that killed the AA probably must heal so the next turn if unlucky they might be useless. With a CA you can kill the AA at first hit and have the legions attacking at 13,5 after to clean up the rest. Also math is pre tech to nav, and only need to build 2 pults.
I do agree on that he probably needs to bring more legions though.
Yes German elite LA is strong but Indians early fundy is just as good. And with that much gold and 2 AI caps Duke should easy be able to build a stronger force then Liam.
Ofcourse outexpand him might be a safer bet but if the rush with Cats and LA fails it sure will slow Liam down and this doesn't say that as soon Duke puts his armies on the galleon he starts expanding and teching again wich means that even if the attack fails he should still easy outtech and expand the Germans.
If the attack is inevitable then I rather be the attacker then the defender. Because then I decide where that battle takes place. Otherwice you don't know were he will attack and you can't have 4-5 LA in every city just in case he is attacking that particular city.
Anyways Duke would have won this game no matter what and what would have been the best call is hard to say.. Mayby one of them Gets GW and then the table turns.
*cheers*
Without watching the video, this is what I remember.
I had over 300 gold. I could win however I wanted. I could expand AND attack. If you didn't notice, I put down a nice 8? hammer city. I was planning to get to nav and either go cats or legions. It didn't really matter. I decided on nav because I didn't want to just run units at his front city. I wanted to pick my attack and hopefully take a city or two on the outside of his empire.
Next, I didn't feel threatened by Liam at all. It was still really early (just goes to show how good my start was). Maybe 2000 BC? There was no way Liam could have any more than a couple legion armies. Plus he needed a way to transport them. My estimation was I still have easily 5-10 turns to make some defenses at my front line. I probably could have built a couple archers just to prevent a galley drop in.
Thrasher is basically right on. When you are that far ahead, you play it safe and make your opponent make a bold move. Press him just enough to make life difficult for him. I remember a game against Thrasher where he was very far ahead of me. Instead of just expanding a bit and grabbing all the 1st to tech bonuses, he came at me with legions. I was able to defend probably 5-6 legion armies with archers, blitz HA, etc. I had some really good battle luck but it can happen. It can be really hard to take cities against someone who knows how to defend. Morte is probably one of the best.
Thanks about the comment. About attacking/defending in general, I think that pressing while you're ahead, is a must, even if a lot of times I myself don't even think about doing that (because building legions takes time, I must move a lot of units, form armies, etc...). When the other person is ahead in tech, the worst thing that will happen, is having to defend against him. That way, I can't even attack him where I can do some damage.
And, a personal comment, I like these ancient/medieval battles where it takes a lot of strategy to defend. Attacking is too easy, I am not saying it's a bad idea obviously. I just like when I have to do things like : build a road there, move another unit there, attack some units etc...
Moving tomorrow. No internet for a day or two. Enjoy! Or in Thrasher's case, tell me how badly I suck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYWJk...1&feature=plcp
Thank youMoving tomorrow. No internet for a day or two. Enjoy! Or in Thrasher's case, tell me how badly I suck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYWJk...1&feature=plcp
Thanks Duke. I have just started watching it. A little bummer with the barb blocking but not that bad start anyway thanks to GB and GH. But why in gods name didn't you rushed a secon warr in cap to put on the Galley after you dropped of your GPs... lolMoving tomorrow. No internet for a day or two. Enjoy! Or in Thrasher's case, tell me how badly I suck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYWJk...1&feature=plcp
I'll comment more after finnishing watching it
*cheers*
Wow, Liam really tried to lose that one but just couldn't manage it. A little expansion on his part and you would have been burnt toast right away. Two cities + library is not a good strategy (referring to Liam here). I rest my case. I think you needed to either attack sooner or expand more so you could have cruisers outside his cities before he could even hope to get them. That's doable when he stays at two cities.
Look at Duke using adar and demo-glitching. What a cheat!
There were some minor things like spoiling a potential exploration tile at the start (never move to the middle of three plains in 4000 BC if you can reach your destination without doing so) and chasing the Germans off a hill, then not using that hill for two turns, but this game was played pretty well by Duke up until the last third or so. Then it's hop in a galleon and attack with legions? Why wait until then? Liam's cruisers can make that extremely difficult. You took the library city, but it didn't matter at that point. You could have sailed up 15 turns earlier and grabbed that city and then Liam wouldn't be able to get to Engineering at all. Funny because that was just about the point that Liam started playing well, like you guys are sharing a brain or something.
The Colossus gambit was okay, though obviously if Liam scouts you and has an artist, it's really quite amazingly bad for you. But neither of those things happened. There's probably nothing else worth GBing that early since you already had the Great Wall and the Pyramid was obsoleted by Liam. Both of you going for Irrigation with your libraries? Eek.
Yeah, good observation. No reason not to bring a warrior along and many reasons to do it.
I still wouldn't call this anything other than a bad start even with the GP. He's too isolated, especially for a Russia game. He was only in it because Liam isolated himself by not spreading out.
Yea. I have finished watching it now and when I made the post he hadnt encountered Liam yet or got the GW. But several mistakes. Sold the Galley? either keep it to settling islands but preferable have an warr on it and keep exploring. Only making contact with one AI? Why not keep exploring to find all AI. all good for threataning and sell techs to. Also getting better mapknowledge. Defently go for an attack earliier. Having the GW is so good if keep some early presaure on the oponent. If not taking the library city with the galley and 2 LA atleast made liam to build an AA there..
Also i don't understands Liams play. Why rush for early knights when Duke got the GW? Better to focus on building a good empire and tech up fast. Now it worked out well anyway. If Liam popped Feudal from friendly then thats ok but not ok to beeline to it when you can't attack anyway.
And also the small things that Eltrasher pointed out. I would also have made an barrack earlier. Forming an non vet LA is almost useless. 6 attack is not good.
One more thing. In the previous video When Elthrasher said CA is not neccesary. I forgot to point out the best thing with it. And thats that a Vet CA in fundy have enough attackpower to attack single archers and LAs directly from the boat. So this means you can attack from the galleon with 11 attack and kill his LAs in the city or singlearchers without being afraid of countterattacks. And if he builds an AA just move to next city and repeat. so either he must build AA in every city or you can take the city. If he empty his city just take it with one archer. And then if he take it back with LA kill it with CA.
*cheers*
LA or HA (or more) waiting behind the city preferably on a hill. taking the city with a CA means you loose the CA unless he is slow on the buttons. So you need to have some other units to clear the space. HA (and they probably have 1) can be 2 squares away so harder to spot. Also if you see a cat on a galley then you can rush (pls saved prod) your own and attack it if your barracks city is near.
Absolutely. Meet the other AI (one AI was never even met at all and France was met very late), maybe find an island friendly or even an artifact. Could Seven Cities have been out there?
Plus he rolls up on French borders and so obviously can meet them if he chooses but doesn't even try.
He had the militia there so he has reasonable odds of surprising Liam. Obviously taking that city is game (which is why library < expansion).
Yes. I expect he decided a quick knight rush was the way to go and didn't deviate, but it was increasingly the worst choice. This was a perfect game to horserush. He obviously would have had Paris, probably whatever AI cap was beyond (the one we never met) and perhaps Berlin as well. He'd have a much better tech base, much more production. Easy win.
Here I don't agree. The non-vet legion army on a hill behind a city is great for defense. Still, I would have gotten the barracks earlier because non-vet isn't good for attacking longbows.
The problem with your thinking here is that you are attempting to solve problems that don't exist, or if they exist, only exist because Liam has screwed up. Duke is India with 300 gold. German archer armies are not a problem for him. He doesn't lose this game because of German archer armies.
Second, if Liam is keeping legion armies in cities, then he's making a serious error. Flip that city and he loses them all. What Liam does if he has a brain rattling around in his head is fortify his units on a forest next to the city and put one unit in the city. Duke shows up with a cat army and takes the city, Liam uses a legion army to take it back. Liam is out 10 hammers while Duke is out 60. This is the kind of exchange Liam needs to win the game. Honestly, I would love it if I were in Liam's position and my opponent did as you are suggesting. It would be my best chance to win.
Furthermore, your suggestions above assume a passive posture on Liam's part. Now he might adopt that passive posture, but if he does, he gets utterly creamed by India with 300 gold. He needs to go on the offensive which means lots of legions, not very many archers and it means that the fight will come to Duke. The best response to lots of legions is lots of legions. He just has to trade a few armies and it's all over for Liam. Cats are risky and expensive and don't really help any more than legions do. This game is a guaranteed win just by expanding and building some armies.
Well can unload one archer on each side of the city to see whats up. Anyways I still don't think its wrong to make a couple of armies to press even if ahead. Math is pre-tech to nav and only need to build 2 cats. Thats only 10 hammers more then one LA.
One more thing. Duke was teching quite fast but even so liam got engenering and invention first. He could GS then GS steam. He had atleast 5 cities but probably 6 or 7. I agree on huge error in not make the HA. he got 50 gold from 2 first barbs wich means he could have had his HA out realy fast. Take 1-2 caps with it and more gold faster so he still could be able to rush that library if he wan'ted.
This is what i don't get. When I play I go for caps, gold and mapknowlledge first. Then under the right circumstances I build a library if i got the gold. Only choosing not to build a HA etc.. and build a library right away its not such a good call I think. So Liam didn't do wrong in building a library but he should have made an HA first. Then if he don't get enough gold for a library so be it. Atleast he got 1 and perhaps if lucky 2 AI caps. bigger mapknowledge faster and having an HA for defending and herrassing opponent is always good thing long way into the game.
*cheers*
I think you're drifting a little from your original point here. Yes, I would probably fill out a cat army on the way to Navigation. I probably wouldn't use it to drive into German territory and I wouldn't bother getting it too fast because I have time. I would set to receive the charge, then return fire once the elites are dead.
Are you saying Liam had more than two cities? Reading gave him 22 beakers, which could get him to Engineering in the time frame of the game. He used scientists on the other techs.
And, in fact, as I keep pointing out, the library at that point in the game is fairly irrelevant. Certainly Liam taking two caps and then expanding wins him this game library or no library. I patiently wait for a game in which a library actually contributes to victory. Of course I must be patient because that doesn't happen often.
I've been trying this out lately and it seems like a pretty good option. You then have hammers either for warriors or the first horse.
Classic Civ Rev quote!! LOL!
Really nice vids. I loved watching them.
I won't go in the critics as this part is well covered by others
That's a neat little trick. Players complain of not getting gold from libraries, but this seems like one way of doing it. Interesting and creative.
I haven't tried to improve my game in many, many months... but all I have to do is start reading these great comments and I learn a thing or two!!
If you want to look like the elite player which you are, just record our next game... I'll make you look like Morte, Thrasher, and Rip Nelson all wrapped into one!!
Another plus for keeping your first 2 warriors exploring before getting horses is that if one of them happens to walk into the direction of your opponent, you can use it to defend your horse army which will catch up in no time, rather than opening your HA up to one lucky counter.
It is quite time-consuming to send a one-movement defender along later, unless you use a galley.
Even putting a single warrior on your opponent's trees makes him waste resources. Either has to form a WA, or get the HA back to the cap or use multiple single units to get rid of your lonely guy.
Its not critics. It's constructive feedbackReally nice vids. I loved watching them.
I won't go in the critics as this part is well covered by others
And about the latest Video again. I realy don't think he only had two cities. But I guess only Liam can answer that one though. As far as I know Liams like to settle islands. and in the beginning Liam had a galley when Duke encountered him. I'm guessing Liam settled atleast one island city. I might be wrong though and if I am I find it remarcable that Liam won this game with the strategy of building an early library, taking no AI cap and only had thoose two cities through the whole game.
I still don't think Duke had such a bad start. Yes he was a little bit isolated but with the early GB and GH and also the GW there is not much to complain about. He also got the 100g settler and some more gold quite fast.
Oh one more thing. There were two battles in this game that was won against high odds. Liams KA against the pike and the CA against the archer. In both these battles the defending unit had half or less the attackers power. However they was both fully fortified...
*cheers*
OK frelinder - design an experiment you will be happy with, tell me when you will be on and let us test it.
And yet he lost to somebody who we agree played it wrong. The reason Duke's start is bad is because if Liam had built two horse armies, he would have had 2-3 AI caps and more than 200 gold left over. He might have beaten Duke to Angkor Wat, which is game but even if that didn't happen, Liam would have so much material to work with, Duke wouldn't have a ghost of a chance. Duke's Colossus/library city would have got him one early tech of his choosing and from then on it's The Liam Show because Liam would have 10-15 cities if he wanted to.
Problem is though that I can't play that often because my GF gets crazy
So when I do find the time I would rather play Friendly games
*cheers*
hmmm..mine too..Problem is though that I can't play that often because my GF gets crazy
Oh well ... I guess that means Elthrasher wins all the arguments he has had with you by default
cool videos. didn't expect any more of them in my lifetime so they were felicitous christmas presents. it somewhat motivates me to start playing again but what's the use on the ps3. civ rev 2 for next christmas please!
funny how everybody has the need to explain why they are about to lose or why they have lost. often quite immediately and impulsively even, after something bad happens.
As nice as the Happauge unit looks (£140.00 here in UK) i've got on order the (much) cheaper Pinnacle Dazzle DVD Recorder (£35 all in). Hopefully soon I'll have my own Rip It Apart Video thread.
Ahhhhh... I just watched Duke play Liam English V Russians. Watching his one knight army tear through your flank was painful. You played so well in the early turns, but seeing you fall apart was hard. His attack was nothing special. I know I have had many games where I let a easy win (I know you had a rough start, but all Liam really did was send a single knight army to the front which was extremly easy to stop and one knight army to the flank). When he got steam power I was screaming protect your flank he is coming. I am sure this game is old, but the Duke I knew would have crushed me with such a weak attack.
haha I don't even know what you are talking about. I haven't recorded a game in over a year. However, I do suck at this game now compared to how we used to play.
i think your saving all your best games for the champions bracket
Watched the one when you faced liam with Russia against his English. Do you normally waste so many beakers? I saw you over teching a few times. Isn't that inefficient?
Probably a combination of me wanting gold and being lazy.
Midgame, I'm almost always over-teching in order to still get at least some cashflow without having to switch over to gold. I don't see an ineffeciency with that. Especially if you have any science bonuses (boni, anyone?
Duke, do you have any more videos to upload, by chance? Love watching your games. Thanks!
I think he retired.
just bumping this back to the first page
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