Can you please address the "unit dance"...?

[dibbles]

Hello

Could you please have a look at the unnecessary movement being done by whole groups of units on the map.

For example...

In the game that I'm currently playing, which is a large continental map, I am allied with a few City States and thus their "empire" is available for me to see. When I press the next turn button I then have to wait before it concludes for their units to shuffle one tile to the left and then on the next turn for their shuffle to the right back to where they were. Multiply that by the number of City States that I can observe this occurring with and I imagine that it is taking up processing time to calculate and for the animation to finish before I can take my turn.

Other AI's are doing this as well. The Babylonians, who are my neighbour, I have taken all their cities except for one, constantly feels the need to move their units in such a way. They never seem to go beyond their borders but they do constantly move one or two tiles each turn and then back again. If they remained static and fortified their position it would make more sense than their constant twitching.

Late game turns can take long enough and I would like to believe that they could be reduced if these "unit dances" could be addressed.

Thanks

[brxbrx]

isn't there a "see enemy moves" option you can disable? or does that not apply?

you mean they move for no reason?

[dibbles]

The movement will occur on each and every turn regardless of you watching it or not.

An example of two CS close together after one turn...

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/363...screen0019.jpg

then one turn later...

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7...screen0020.jpg

...they move for absolutely no reason apart from to create animation on the map. Those units that you can see have moved a tile or two in one direction will then move back on the next move. I'm not talking about workers developing tiles I am referring to units shuffling back and forth for no reason at all.

Note how Oslo AND Genoa have a horseman garrisoned in their city and then decides to move it one tile S.E. They then go back on the next turn. But you can see other units which have moved also.

[Panda_Power]

This is why I just can't play with city states enabled. It's bad enough having to sit through the other civs doing a quick-step back and forth every turn in late game, but when you're allied with city states and have to watch their moves too, it's just painful!

[brxbrx]

yeah that does seem silly.

[dibbles]

I know hat you mean Panda but if I remove the city states I will be taking out a "layer of complexity" from the game which doesn't have too many layers already.!

I have actually enjoyed playing the game with the City-State Diplomacy Mod as this adds another element of fun to the value of the city states.

As you have noted though this shuffle also applies to the other Civs as well. I am getting tired of watching the Babylonians dance one tile to the left and then the right in their one city empire.

[Panda_Power]

I know hat you mean Panda but if I remove the city states I will be taking out a "layer of complexity" from the game which doesn't have too many layers already.!

Yeah I know and in a game that is crying out for more it's a real pity that I just find it so hard to go back to including them again. The game is just so much faster without them.

That mod is excellent though and I will definitely include it again in the future when the game has been optimized.

Maybe today's hotfix has a bit of magical optimization included in it!

[SamBC]

So AI movement code just needs a bit of code that detects when they may as well not move, and not move them when this is true... it wouldn't alter the AI code execution time very much, but the actual moving presumably takes up more cycles, and when it comes to efficiency, it all adds up.

[Furball]

It has always puzzelled me why the AI, either civs or city states feel the need to shuffle their units back and forth constantly and i can assume this is a contributing factor in the extrordinarily long wait times between turns.
Apart from it being pointless it is also tactically unsound as they would be much better fortifying their units if their occupying a space near a border, which is obviously when we see this most as you generally can't see past a few tiles into another stats border. And they are usually shuffling around their border in a military cold war stand-off with you at the time.

It would be nice to have one of the moderators actually explain the logic behind this constant [pointless] movement and why it makes the AI so intelligent or does the AI simply have some form of ADHD?

[SamBC]

It would be nice to have one of the moderators actually explain the logic behind this constant [pointless] movement and why it makes the AI so intelligent or does the AI simply have some form of ADHD?

Mods are volunteers; you want a 2K rep or (unlikely as it is) a dev.

[dibbles]

I am guessing that the unit dance is there to create animation on another wise, at times, still map. However it is that very animation which can contribute to longer times between turns and is only made worse when you play on larger maps which have more CS's and Civs.

[brxbrx]

I think I know why they do it!
It's to allow movement. Otherwise, with one unit per tile, moving through city-state territory would be completely impossible. Thus, the AI is programmed to shuffle about, so as to give the player a chance to move through friendly territory.
I discovered this just now, as I was trying to move a worker through Singapore's territory. If their units hadn't been shuffling about, I would not have been able to cross, even though we were "friends."
Maybe we need to address this serious flaw of 1upt.

[Furball]

I think I know why they do it!
It's to allow movement. Otherwise, with one unit per tile, moving through city-state territory would be completely impossible. Thus, the AI is programmed to shuffle about, so as to give the player a chance to move through friendly territory.
I discovered this just now, as I was trying to move a worker through Singapore's territory. If their units hadn't been shuffling about, I would not have been able to cross, even though we were "friends."
Maybe we need to address this serious flaw of 1upt.

This has nothing to do with why normal civs do so though, and why they repeatedly move the same 2 units back and forth, swapping places every turn.

[brxbrx]

This has nothing to do with why normal civs do so though, and why they repeatedly move the same 2 units back and forth, swapping places every turn.

no, same thing. to allow movement for human players. that way, if you need to go through their turf, and you get blocked, you can wait a turn for them to move (because otherwise your path would be blocked indefinitely by idle units)

And I'm quite proud of this theory. don't hurt my feelings plz

[MadDjinn]

I think I know why they do it!
It's to allow movement. Otherwise, with one unit per tile, moving through city-state territory would be completely impossible. Thus, the AI is programmed to shuffle about, so as to give the player a chance to move through friendly territory.
I discovered this just now, as I was trying to move a worker through Singapore's territory. If their units hadn't been shuffling about, I would not have been able to cross, even though we were "friends."
Maybe we need to address this serious flaw of 1upt.

Different 'flaw'. 1UPT is not flawed. It's just fine.

the 'flaw' that you are describing is that even when you're allied, or have open borders, your non-combat units can't walk through other players/AIs/CSs units like your combat units can. (side note would be nice to have them also share the space, but this would be a nice first step) This includes your GG, which is a rough thing when you're landing a defensive force to repel someone attacking the CS.

[brxbrx]

I think I'm going to make an "alternatives to 1upt" thread (discounting stacks of doom as an alternative, naturally).

I'm thinking of a maintenance fee for each unit in a single tile

[Podling]

I know hat you mean Panda but if I remove the city states I will be taking out a "layer of complexity" from the game which doesn't have too many layers already.!
.

I disagree... I've found that removing the city states has added back a "layer of complexity" that city states removed from the game. No maritime food means I have to be more deliberate in tile improvements. No easy mode diplo win too.

[dibbles]

no, same thing. to allow movement for human players. that way, if you need to go through their turf, and you get blocked, you can wait a turn for them to move (because otherwise your path would be blocked indefinitely by idle units)

And I'm quite proud of this theory. don't hurt my feelings plz

Would I be eternally damned if I popped your delusion..?

[brxbrx]

Would I be eternally damned if I popped your delusion..?

well, you can go ahead and try. but I don't believe in damnation. I believe in reincarnation. instead, you'll reincarnate as the e. coli in the lower end of my digestive tract

[dibbles]

well as reincarnation literally means "to enter the flesh again" I can think of no finer place to be, at least it would be a progression for me

[brxbrx]

well as reincarnation literally means "to enter the flesh again" I can think of no finer place to be, at least it would be a progression for me

0_0


but anyways, does my idea make sense?

[eastkitton]

Ah yes, guys, there was a topic I believe.

So AI movement code just needs a bit of code that detects when they may as well not move, and not move them when this is true... it wouldn't alter the AI code execution time very much, but the actual moving presumably takes up more cycles, and when it comes to efficiency, it all adds up.

I often move surveillance units on my borders back and forth, to see what's coming.

If the AI's unit is not going to move, it often "might as well" move out and back again to improve map surveillance.

[compwiz1202]

What I love is they do the dance, but then they get attacked by a barbarian trireme and stand there and heal forever while getting repeatedly shot every turn. Just freaking move inland and heal

[brxbrx]

What I love is they do the dance, but then they get attacked by a barbarian trireme and stand there and heal forever while getting repeatedly shot every turn. Just freaking move inland and heal

I've noticed that too. What's worse is when it's archers! Just fire back already!

[compwiz1202]

I've noticed that too. What's worse is when it's archers! Just fire back already!

I know. Somehow you can sink a boat easy with arrows.

[brxbrx]

I know. Somehow you can sink a boat easy with arrows.

well, maybe not IRL, but in civ5, it's just silly! don't just sit there, you know?

[dibbles]

0_0


but anyways, does my idea make sense?

It does read to be plausible and if so it would suggest that it might be with us for a while yet. However there are times when the movement pattern, which seems far from random, makes little sense when the empire who is doing the jiggle is aware of its surroundings and other units being no where near and yet still needing to dance.

What I love is they do the dance, but then they get attacked by a barbarian trireme and stand there and heal forever while getting repeatedly shot every turn. Just freaking move inland and heal

I too wish that situation would change. I watched turn after turn of a German scout lose and regain health after a barbie ship fired off a salvo and the scout just stayed in that one location. Then again whilst I know that they are called barbarians they do not have to be so dense as to stay in rock hurling distance of your city each time that they call for a visit early in the game.

[eastkitton]

I said something about this in another thread. The quote pointer will take you to the full post.

The general principle is: If you are being attacked by something that outranges you, then you must either get closer and counterattack, or back out of range.

[Takao]

It sounds simple enough, but it is beyond the ken of Civ 5's AI. Often, you see the units "dance" for no apparent reason at all. But when they come under fire, by barbarian forces, the AI units just stand there and take it. I watched Indian spearman come under ranged attack by a barbarian archer and just stand there like a stone statue. Of course, the spearman was in a forest, so they were taking a point damage, and then healing it on their turn. This went on for several turns, while I worked some units around the archer to come up from behind and kill them.

Friggin' dumb AI.

[brxbrx]

It does read to be plausible and if so it would suggest that it might be with us for a while yet. However there are times when the movement pattern, which seems far from random, makes little sense when the empire who is doing the jiggle is aware of its surroundings and other units being no where near and yet still needing to dance.

I think it does it regardless of whether there are any units nearby. The purpose is the same, but the devs left the function redundant.

[FeddyPoap]

Mods are volunteers; you want a 2K rep or (unlikely as it is) a dev.

We need to get Jon Schafer on the line! Oh, wait...

[dibbles]

We need to get Jon Schafer on the line! Oh, wait...

Long distance perhaps..?

[Furball]

Not trying to hurt your feelings but your theory doesn't really pan out.e.g. why do they do this when you do not have open borders with them? There's no need for them to allow you access in this way.
99% of the time i see this is in a military standoff situation where we are neither at war and neither friends but both sides have stationed troops on our borders in case of an attack by either side so i can then see the unit dance. Which as i mentioned earlier is even more silly due to the fact that they are guarding against an attack but not able to fortify their units as they move them every turn.

[Furball]

I have seen this too and it could actually be by design as it is a free way to train up your troops. This is best done with actual civs as barb have an xp limit but it is actually a good tactic in certain circumstances.

[tfordp]

I once watched a CS unit not move for what seemed like hundreds of turns. He was stood on exactly the spot I wanted to plant a culture bomb, in neutral territory, between our borders. The CS had some rare resource, aluminium I think, but he just stood there and wouldn't move. The thing was, I was already allied with them, but they just weren't working the resource either. In the end, after a million turns, I just decided to take them out after our treaty finished.