Canals: Who Needs 'Em?: We Do!

[BammBamm]

Inspired by MegaBearsFan's original post, I've devised a scheme that may serve us well when applied to Terra maps (especially) in shaving multiple turns off of maritime navigation. I can't tell you how many Terra-type maps I've played in Civ4 where this scenario might make sense … probably a hundred (or more).

Given the changes to the combat mechanics in Civ V, Forts are going to take on much greater importance as defensive structures than in previous versions of Civ (they provide zone of control and defend themselves). But I am curious as to exactly how forts are going to work in Civ V. Just how useful are they going to be?

- Do coastal Forts still act as passable terrain for Naval units? If so, can multiple forts be built in a line to act as a canal across a narrow, multi-tile strip of land? Also, can a Military Naval unit that enters a Fort square stack with a Military Land unit that is already on that tile?

Great pre-game question, MegaBear. I think I've experimented with this concept under the initial release, but haven't toyed with it under Version 1.0.1.141.

I've always wanted forts to be more useful, especially on your frontier. Using coastals to make a canal seems like a meh way to go. I'd rather have engineers able to build actual canals that scale up (in regards to what can use them) as tech advances.

Kudos, Steppa. In fact, you've just given me two ideas of my own.

1. New National Wonder: Grand Canal

• Each Civ can build only one.
• Canal length cannot exceed two contiguous hexes.
• Only a single vessel may pass at any given time.
• Civs 'Friendly' with owner may use said canal free-of-charge.
• Civs @ 'Neutral' status must ask permission to navigate said canal.
• Civs @ 'Guarded' status must ask permission to navigate said canal, for a negotiable fee.
• Civs @ 'Hostile' status may NOT navigate said canal (short of declaring war), upon which only that one (now enemy) ship may then pass (if it can then survive the gauntlet).
• Civs @ 'War' status can bombard and disable either "port of
entry" into said canal.

2. New World Wonder: The Panama Canal

• Only one may be built (obviously).
• Canal length cannot exceed five contiguous hexes.
• Multiple vessels may pass at any given time.
• Civs 'Friendly' with owner may use said canal free-of-charge.
• Civs @ 'Neutral' status must ask permission to navigate said canal for military vessels, for a negotiable fee (Great Merchants may pass without permission, free-of-charge).
• Civs @ 'Guarded' status must ask permission to navigate said canal for ALL vessels, for a negotiable fee, in addition to elevating their status to 'Neutral' for a minimum of 10 turns.
• Civs @ 'Hostile' status may NOT navigate said canal (short of declaring war), upon which only that one (now enemy) ship may then pass (if it can then survive the gauntlet).
• Civs @ 'War' status can bombard and disable either "port of
entry" into said canal.

Your thoughts…

[mindoka]

why the world wonder should be panama canal?

suez canal is older; and longer...

war; disable, or destroy?

civ does not really have true non-military ships. it'd be interesting concept to craft that into the game and could be made rather complex. tying it to the resource exchange, and even hauling resources between one's own cities. including distance as factor, offering possibilities to manage routes used etc. not forgetting barbarians to hold such ships as hostage!

btw, that'd require using something similar than the model introduced in Civ Colonization for resources.

[BammBamm]

Why Panama vs. Suez? Good question.

But, I ask you, Mindoka: Which one required more effort, took a greater number of men's lives in the process, is more geographically strategic, and is more synonymous with being a "World Wonder"?

If Suez > Panama, then let it be Suez. The name of the wonder is irrelevant, in my humble opinion. If you like "Suez", then *I* like Suez.

There. It's settled.

[Faceplunger]

I don't particular like the idea, I'd prefer it to be just a simple tile improvement that cost 2g per turn.

The Grand Canal national wonder requires all cities to have aqueducts, accessible at Engineering? +1 food for all desert tiles works by the city? +2 food? Just an idea

[BammBamm]

I don't particular like the idea, I'd prefer it to be just a simple tile improvement that cost 2g per turn.

The Grand Canal national wonder requires all cities to have aqueducts, accessible at Engineering? +1 food for all desert tiles works by the city? +2 food? Just an idea

Good input, FacePlunger!

Hey—we're in Brainstormin' Mode, here: All input is welcome and appreciated.

[_Pax_]

1. New National Wonder: Grand Canal

[...]

2. New World Wonder: The Panama Canal

Well, National Projects are built in cities, not out on the map itself. Determining where to place those canals might be a bit problematic, yes?

So, here's my counter-idea:

• Instead of building a Wonder or a Project, you build a unit: "Canal Excavator".
• You build this (expensive!) unit wherever you like, then move it to a hex where you want a Canal to be placed. Order the Excavator to, er, excavate ... and after several turns, the unit is consumed, and voila ... Canal!
• Now, adjacent Canals would link up to each other in the same way adjacent Roads do;
• Canals come with a free Road improvement, in the same Hex. This can be upgraded to a Railroad, without damage to the Canal. (This way, Roads or Rails that you want to "cross" the canal with, can and will do so. When this happens, bridges should be displayed where needed/appropriate, of course.)
• Naval Units can move into any hex that has a Canal (a line of Canal hexes crossing a stretch of land, would thus allow you to move those Naval units across that landmass). Embarked units disembark, and use the (provided) Railroad;
• Any City adjacent to a Canal, gets it's own Canal for free, of course (just like Roads and Rails);
• Even better: any City which has a Canal adjacent to it, can also build Port/Harbor buildings, as if it were adjacent to a Lake or Coast hex;
• Canals cost twice as much to maintain as Railroads. This cost can be reduced by Social Policies, just as with Roads/Rails;
• Finally, Canals "conduct" Fresh Water - their hex, and the hexes adjacent, are considered to have Fresh Water access. (Reason enough itself, to build a network of canals in a Desert ...!)

EDIT TO ADD: Canals should only be constructable adjacent to River, Lake, Coast, or other Canal hexes.
...

Now, there's still room for the Wonder - whichever large Canal you care to name it after. What might it do?

• Upon completing the Wonder, get X number of free Canal Excavators (say, 5 or 7), which appear outside the city where the Wonder was built;
• Future Canal Excavators cost 20% or 25% less to build, and excavate canals 20% or 25% faster (in 3 turns, instead of the 4 or 5 normally needed);
• All canals produce +1 gold when worked by a Citizen.

[Skunkone]

Canals have been needed in civ forever, the fort improvement was dumb in 4 and I would love to see a real tile improvement. Not to mention navigable rivers so you do not have to have a port city to make navy units. They should imo even add a harbor tile improvement and bring back towns. This would allow for more different tile improvements and allow for the building of navy units as long as a city is within 3 tiles of the ocean.

[DrMcCleod]

Canals have been needed in civ forever, the fort improvement was dumb in 4 and I would love to see a real tile improvement. Not to mention navigable rivers so you do not have to have a port city to make navy units. They should imo even add a harbor tile improvement and bring back towns. This would allow for more different tile improvements and allow for the building of navy units as long as a city is within 3 tiles of the ocean.

Good idea, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Ship_Canal

Which links an inland city to the sea for the purpose of freight navigation.

[brxbrx]

historical and strategic!

canals would be brilliant.

they remain today a staple of maritime travel

the suez canal and the panama canal are all that come to mind, but the sheer necessity of them for trade speaks for itself inspite of my only being able to recall two.

[Sigurd Jorsalfare]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who would like this feature implemented. I've been missing canals since Civ3.....

Some ideas:
I like the idea of a Canal excavator-unit. Maybe Great Engineers also could be able to construct canals? Canals could be built in both flat and hilly terrain, and when constructed in hills, it would be necessary with locks which makes it more expensive/slow to build (and also cost 2 movement points for naval units to pass). Maintanance cost on tile improvements is probably tricky to implement, but if possible, the canals in hill-terrain should cost more to maintain. A gold bonus in canal-tiles is logical, but could that be scaled according to how many other civs that have access to the canal (friends or open borders agreement)? That would give a bonus if you're able to be friends with other civs.
These ideas will of course make the game more complex, and I'm not confident that this is desired by 2k. Maybe it could be modded? I'm not a modder myself, and therefore I know little about whats possible or not, but I suspect it would be difficult.

[BammBamm]

_Pax_, yours is an excellent idea! Two thumbs up!

And even though it would occur in the lategame/Future era, we could reprogram our Giant Death Robots to serve in a civilian capacity as Giant Excavating Robots! Just have 'em lob a few photon torpedoes, maybe six or seven rounds from their laser cannons, and you, sir, have yourself a canal. Such a deal!

Seriously, your excavator concept is a much more elegant solution than my "Grand Canal". You're right; national wonders are restricted to cities. Good point.


SkunkOne, having navigable rivers is a fantastic idea. In fact, it's not beyond the realm of possibility for a river to have varying widths/depths depending on their proximity to the sea, narrowing upstream towards its headwaters. _Pax_'s excavator could be used to open that puppy up to navigation, taking fewer turns to do so than in digging a canal from scratch.


Doctor McCleod: Thanks for the link. Interesting read indeed.


@brxbrx: I'm with you. Panama & Suez were the only two "World Wonder"-level canals I could come up with off the top of my head. On a local note (local for me, anyway), an 8-year project called the McClellan-Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System was launched in 1963 to allow barge traffic to traverse all the way up to Tulsa, Oklahoma from the Mighty Miss'ippi River: (Highlighted here in red).


And, Sigurd, I like your ideas regarding locks and the tie-in with Great Engineers.


Wow. Superb input, all. If the powers that be at 2K/Firaxis are listening, there's a wealth of intriguing ideas on this forum that would, in my humble opinion, greatly enhance the game. And even if they can't be implemented into an expansion pack, they most assuredly should be taken into consideration for Sid Meier's Civilization VI.

[_Pax_]

_Pax_, yours is an excellent idea! Two thumbs up!

Thank you!

@brxbrx: I'm with you. Panama & Suez were the only two "World Wonder"-level canals I could come up with off the top of my head.

Erie Canal. Know your U.S. History. (Currently part of the New York Canal System: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yor...e_Canal_System )

There's also the Grand Canal in China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_%28China%29

^_^

OH, and I edited in a new detail / point, limiting where Canals can be placed.

It'd be interesting, too, if the Excavator unit could enter a Mountain hex, and cut a Canal through it (along with the Road or Rail provided, this would make formerly-"impassable" mountains become passable), though doing so should probably cost tremendous amounts of time.

[Skunkone]

Thank you!


Erie Canal. Know your U.S. History. (Currently part of the New York Canal System: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yor...e_Canal_System )

Was jsut about to make a post about the Erie Canal. That made New York into what it is today.

[jcddmdad]

And for river navigation...the grand Columbia here in the Pacific Northwest!

[2K Greg]

I have always loved the idea of being able to build canals as an improvement

[_Pax_]

Was jsut about to make a post about the Erie Canal. That made New York into what it is today.

It helped make the whole darned COUNTRY what it is, today.





And of course, now I think I may have overcomplicated things a lot.

Instead of making it a separate unit, it could just become a series of Worker options.

• With the development of Engineering, Workers can construct Canals;
• Digging a Canal takes 10 turns of work;
• Canals cost 2g in maintenance, per hex, per turn;
• Canals can be constructed in Plains, Grassland, Desert, and Marsh hexes;
• Canals can only be constructed adjacent to Coast, Lake, or Canal hexes, or in hexes adjacent to a River (the graphic shows the Canal connected to the Coast, Lake, River, or Canal it is built adjacent to);
• Cities gain a free Canal improvement, the moment a Canal is placed in an adjacent hex, or if the city is adjacent to a Lake, Coast, or River.
• Cities with a Canal improvement can build Port/Harbor buildings and wonders, as if they were adjacent to a Coast hex;
• Canals conduct Trade / form Trade Route links, the same as Roads. No Harbor facility is required for this function;
• With the development of Irrigation, a Canal will provide it's own hex and adjacent hexes with Fresh Water access if it is adjacent to a Lake, River, or Canal with Fresh Water access (that is to say: a canal system whose sole source of water is an ocean, does not provide fresh water access at all);
• With the development of Electricity, all Canal hexes provide Fresh Water access if they are adjacent to any source of water, including another Canal;
• With the development of Iron Working, Canals can be constructed in Forest hexes (does not remove the forest!);
• With the development of Machinery, Canals can be constructed in Hill hexes (graphic shows system of Locks at edges between hill and non-hill hexes);
• With the development of Dynamite, time to build is reduced by 2 turns (to 8);
• With the development of Robotics, time to build is reduced by a further 2 turns (to 6);
• Movement along a Canal costs Naval units 6 per hex;
• Movement cost is reduced to 4 per hex with the development of Electricity;
• Movement cost is reduced to 2 per hex with the development of Computers;

The Wonder would work the same as above. Roads and Railroads would have to be built (and maintained) independently, but since Workers now build 'em all, that's just an issue of time spent on the project.

[BammBamm]

Erie Canal. Know your U.S. History.

"Forget the T-shirt: I went to the 2K Forums, and all I got was this lousy scolding by a persnickety history major!"

In high school, one of my fondest memories was that of being saved by the clanging bell that mercifully announced the end of history class for the day. In college, I paid a little more attention, and earned an 'A' in History of Western Civilization. Today, The History Channel is one of my absolute favorites, especially if the program relates to militaristic matters.

Go figure.


_Pax_, I was just about to publish this, when I saw you'd substantially enhanced your latest post. Bravo! We need to get you on the 2K payroll ASAP. I'm sure Elizabeth won't mind turning in at least one of her company-provided Mercedes SLS AMGs to offset the cost of providing you with a corner office in Novato with a nice view of San Pablo Bay…

[_Pax_]

hehehe, I wouldn't want to move there ... wherever that is. (California or Texas, I'm guessing.) I'm a New England Yankee, born and bred.

[BammBamm]

A New England Yankee? Well, then, if that's the case, best of luck to your New England Patriots, next weekend. My Kansas City Chiefs will be delighted to send them packing in the AFC Championship game.


But I digress. Novato, California is home to 2K's Marin site. According to their webpage, they're primarily involved with the title BioShock, a game I picked up for a song during the holidays in one of 2K's Mega Packs, but have yet to explore. Despite this fact, and according to recent chatter on 2K Marin's internal website, I hear that Elizabeth has graciously agreed to relinquish one of her four Gulfstream G650s, and divert the funds into a comprehensive salary and benefits package for you, along with a lavishly-appointed 4x6 cubicle. She's also agreed to forego the lease on her 2 SLS AMGs, opting instead for a small fleet of Nissan Leaves (sic), one of which can be viewed here, resting majestically in the driveway of her modest Marin County estate.


Located on the grounds of a long-since abandoned Air Force base, 2K's Marin facility boasts a dizzying array of amenities, including:

• Segway Saturdays: Employees are encouraged to bring their families and participate in heated drag races on the 6400' runway (weather permitting)

• Complimentary shoulder rubs from rotating members of the 1968 East German Women's Olympic Synchronized Swimming Team

• Free coffee

However, even with these extraordinary perks, there is one potential drawback: The campus is located directly atop a major fault line, so remember to pack some extra tubes of Poligrip Ultra. This recent photo of the parking lot, taken by a homeless guy with a c. 1910 No. 3A Kodak Brownie, reveals the dire condition of the employee parking area.


IN SUMMATION, _PaxMan_, I wish you well in your new position as "Senior Creative Design Lead and Break Room Attendant" at 2K!

[_Pax_]

Hehehe, if only ... if only. ;D

[tfordp]

It'd be interesting, too, if the Excavator unit could enter a Mountain hex, and cut a Canal through it (along with the Road or Rail provided, this would make formerly-"impassable" mountains become passable), though doing so should probably cost tremendous amounts of time.

I was having similar thoughts reading through this, and wondering, if canals (which I think is a great idea, BTW; I remember a discussion on the topic before release) could be built, then why not tunnels too?
In a recent game, I had to build roads around a mountain range, and this would be the ideal solution.