Let's Get Creative: Unique National Wonders

[steveg700]

I haven't seen a lot of constructive or creative posts lately--even from myself. Of course, a lot of that stems from the mods banning threads about ideas for new civ's. Since that creative outlet has been stifled, I'll try working another angle.

I'd been mulling over some alternate leaders for existing civ's, and I was looking at Nero for Rome. I was trying to build a "bread and circuses" theme, giving Nero a discount on maintenance costs as long as happiness was at least equal to its number of cities. I was trying to come up with a way to represent the Roman grain dole as a unique building that replaces the grannary or the water mill, a unique building (aqueduct), or perhaps a unique improvement for wheat tiles.

Then it occured to me that a national wonder would be the closest fit. A unique national wonder. What if every civ got one? That actually fills a niche for distinguishing civ's from each other that was once filled by governments and religions. Unlike a world wonder, a national wonder isn't locked into being anything physical; it can just as easily be a philosophy or social doctrine (e.g. National Epic and Heroic Epic).

So, here's what I came up with for Rome:

Cura Annonae
+3 happiness, and an additional +1 happiness for each city with an improved wheat resource. Requires each city to have a grannary.

Here's another I came up with when I was slapping together Mao as an alternate leader for China:

Maoism
Gain one free social policy from one of the following: Tradition, Patronage, Rationalism, Autocracy, or Order. Requires each city to have a...I dunno. Paper maker? Suggestions welcome.

You could really go nuts with this. The Library of Alexandria for Eqypt, the West Point Military Academy for the U.S, Hinduism for India.

Anyway, I figured I'd run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. Or we can start another thread about bad AI diplomacy. Either way is good with me.

[steveg700]

Not a single nibble. Not only zero replies, but only 34 views. Wasn't even worth looking at. Let's see what the kids are tuning into these days:

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And a quick look at the official "ideas for new civ's" thread shows that it's degenerated into a couple of guys bickering about Spain and Portugal ad infinitum. So be it. The mob has spoken. Ideas are out. Kvetching is in.

[uvastrummer]

I like this. This could really add another dimension to the game. Here are a couple more:

The Alhambra - Spain. Requires a castle in 50% of all cities. Units gain +15% attack in friendly territory. +4 culture.

The Autobahn - Germany. Uses 2 oil. Units gain +1 movement in friendly territory and +10% to trade routes.

Oral History - Iroquois. Requires Longhouse in all cities. Receive two free tradition social policies.

[steveg700]

Wow, cool ideas that hadn't occurred to me. Good deal!

Here's another:

The Declaration of Independence--America. Requires at least 13 cities to achieve 5 population. Choose a social policy from Liberty, Honor, Commerce, or Freedom.

[uvastrummer]

Also a good idea. Maybe it could be scaled based on map size, 13 being on standard. I guess Earth is standard, right? I was thinking Oral History could be a unique tech for the Iroquois. Civ 5 is a good game but it could be better with a little more fleshing out and distinguishment between civs.

[steveg700]

Thinking about, I guess UNW's would be best-suited for unique social doctrines or institutions tied to a civ's identity, and in that way distinguish from world wonders, which tend to be physical in nature. The Autobahn and Oral Tradition are both good examples. Maybe the Autobahn should require a certain number of tiles to be connected by roads.

With regards to the Declaration, I ws thinking 13 because of the 13 colonies. Not sure if it would need to scale by map size--smaller maps are supposed to be harder in some respects, right? Maybe have 13 minutemen in your army instead?

[SamBC]

More like Unique National Projects, perhaps...

[MegaBearsFan]

You could really go nuts with this. The Library of Alexandria for Eqypt, the West Point Military Academy for the U.S, Hinduism for India.

FYI: The Library of Alexandria IS in the game. Its called "The Great Library".

Thinking about, I guess UNW's would be best-suited for unique social doctrines or institutions tied to a civ's identity, and in that way distinguish from world wonders, which tend to be physical in nature. The Autobahn and Oral Tradition are both good examples. Maybe the Autobahn should require a certain number of tiles to be connected by roads.

With regards to the Declaration, I ws thinking 13 because of the 13 colonies. Not sure if it would need to scale by map size--smaller maps are supposed to be harder in some respects, right? Maybe have 13 minutemen in your army instead?

I don't really think that Unique National Wonders would be appropriate, because how would we distinguish them from the regular World Wonders? For example, what would you use as the Roman Unique Wonder? The Colosseum? The Aqueduct? The Cura Annonae (as proposed earlier)? Why wouldn't any of these just be considered regular World Wonders that anybody could build? And if we do restrict a Unique Wonder to be only buildable by a specific civilization, then why are the other World Wonders open to everybody? The Pyramids, The Pharos (Great Lighthouse), and Library of Alexandria (The Great Library) were unique to Egypt. So why aren't those Unique National Wonders? Especially the Pyramids, which are not only amazing monuments, but also symbolic of Egyptian spiritual beliefs and culture. Why would the Autobahn be unique to Germany? Why couldn't any civ that has researched Combustion be able to build a highway network? Speaking of which, I actually DO think that "Interstate Highway" should be a National Wonder that gives a bonus to trade income from roads and increases movement speed along roads in your borders. But it should be available to anybody, not just Germany.

I also don't think its really appropriate to make philosophies, social doctrines, or institutions be "Wonders" since the Social Policy mechanic is specifically designed to represent "philosophies, social doctrines, or institutions". So what you're really talking about with "Declaration of Independence", "Oral Tradition", "Hinduism", "Maoism", etc would be more akin to Unique Social Policies Trees. "Wonders" Should be restricted to physical objects. The National Epic and Heroic Epic are kind of exceptions to this, but can be explained as being a physical monument in celebration of the respective "epic". For example, the image of the Heroic epic is of the monument in Washington D.C. of American troops raising the flag over Iwo Jima, so the wonder itself could be assumed to represent such a statue being constructed in honor of "epic battle". Similarly, the National Epic could be considered to represent something akin to the Washington Monument, Liberty Bell, or the Declaration of Independence exhibit in the National Museum in Washington.

[steveg700]

I don't really think that Unique National Wonders would be appropriate, because how would we distinguish them from the regular World Wonders? For example, what would you use as the Roman Unique Wonder? The Colosseum? The Aqueduct? The Cura Annonae (as proposed earlier)? Why wouldn't any of these just be considered regular World Wonders that anybody could build? And if we do restrict a Unique Wonder to be only buildable by a specific civilization, then why are the other World Wonders open to everybody? The Pyramids, The Pharos (Great Lighthouse), and Library of Alexandria (The Great Library) were unique to Egypt. So why aren't those Unique National Wonders?

I also don't think its really appropriate to make philosophies, social doctrines, or institutions be "Wonders" since the Social Policy mechanic is specifically designed to represent "philosophies, social doctrines, or institutions". So what you're really talking about with "Declaration of Independence", "Oral Tradition", "Hinduism", "Maoism", etc would be more akin to Unique Social Policies Trees.

So, riddle me this: why should civ's get unique abilities? Unique buildings? Unique units? Can't we just move all of that unique stuff into the common pool of techs and social policies? Can't we just make all of the unique unit special abilities into promotions available to everyone? Why in the wide, wide world of sports would we give one civ things that other civ's can't have?

I mean, lemme get this straight: we can give any civ the great pyramids or the library at Alexandria, but then we confound logic by giving Egypt a 20% discount on building world wonders? That is unnecessary and redundant, as there is already a social policy that gives a discount on building wonders, Aristocracy. I'm not sure what the direct link between aristocrats and wonders are, but there it is. The Egypt player could just go into Tradition if they want to be good at building wonders, and then they can compete on an equal footing with everyone else for the pyramids. Nice and generic.

Answer: You give out unique toys because you want to capture the flavor of a particular civ conceptually and, more importantly, you want the act of playing different civ's to feel distinct from each other. Social policies are so bland and utilitarian that they utterly fail to do this on their own. How many times in this forum have you seen a player refer to a policy just by its benefit, clearly not even feeling it necessary to learn its name? I can hardly blame them either; how the heck is "meritocracy" reflected by getting some extra happiness for connecting cites to your capital by roads? But if you have Maoism, you'll know you have Maoism. It's more fun when civ's are distinct than when they're homogeneous.

In other words, unique national wonders occupy the same design space as a unique ability, unit, or building, and overlap into the poorly-filled area of governments and social policies. To be clear, I'm thinking they should only get one, to keep overlap with world wonders minimal.

[BammBamm]

World's Largest Ball of Twine

Grants +1 gold/turn for all trading posts within a 3-hex radius for 5 turns. Appears in random Great-Plains-tile location upon reaching Modern Era for American Civ only.

[BammBamm]

Super Bowl Victory

Grants +10 gold and +5 happiness for 3 turns for random American city if Coliseum=1. Appears anywhere except capitol (Sorry, Shanahan… maybe next year).

[steveg700]

Go Falcons!

[BammBamm]

Go Falcons!

+1, Brother Stephenson!

[BammBamm]

Great War Victory

15-turn Golden Age/s for victorious Civ/s after signing "cessation of hostilities" agreement with adversary/ies having had two or more "Axis" Civs having fought alongside it.

[eastkitton]

Maybe it's just a bad idea.

If you take physical wonders, then I think USA I think Statue of Liberty - but that's already in World Wonders.

If I think unique Great People then the people who come to mind are already in Great Artists, Great Scientists.

The civs already have a unique ability - you're sort of duplicating that.

[Faceplunger]

I don't like the idea of more national wonders on a fundamental level that they would be taking idea away from more nation wonders. But you know what would be a cool idea, what SamBC said, Unique National Projects. Projects are a far too under utilised, the only fun one is The Manhattan Project which isn't directly linked to a specific victory, just the need to blow up those damn Mongols.

In Civ 5, we have traits, military divisions, buildings and even Terrance farms on hills that give a civilisation's flavour, what about unparalleled moments in history? The French revolution? The Indian Independence Movement? The Fall of the Roman Republic?
Giving each civilisation a unique project that requires a certain small requirement a short but unique bonus would make each more worth while to play.

• The French revolution - +2 science beaker for each city for 5 turns. Requires Ancien Régime to have expired. Costs 400 hammers.
  
• The Indian Independence Movement - For 10 turns, each Indian unit killed in Indian territory caused +2 unhappiness for each person at war with india for 20 turns. Requires to be at war with someone. Costs 200 hammers.
  
• The Fall of the Roman Republic - -10 happiness for 5 turns. You lose all your social policies and but gain the same amount of social policies to reassign. Requires ????. 300 hammers.
  
• The Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence - All City States not allied with another civilisation are Allied to America for 10 turns. Requires the industrial era. 500 hammers.
  
• The Unstoppable Mongol Horde - All units heal as if they use the heal commands for 10 turns. Requires 2 Khan to be alive. 200 hammers.
  
• Britannia Rule - Naval units are gain 20% combat strength for 10 turns. Requires having more gold then any other player. 200 hammers

[eek]

National Health Service - England

+2 happiness, and an additional +1 happiness for each city with a hospital. 50% of cities to have hospitals to build this.

Could also boost healing within borders +2 for injured units.
Florence Nightingale pops up as a mobile healing unit.

[SamBC]

Florence predates the NHS somewhat... but I'd be amused with that as a national feature for England. However, discuss it much and we'll hit some US politics flashpoints, I think.

[killer24(7)]

hello, i am new and i need someone to talk about civ rev for ds

[SamBC]

hello, i am new and i need someone to talk about civ rev for ds

The try the CivRev forums, rather than the CivV forums.

[eek]

Florence predates the NHS somewhat... but I'd be amused with that as a national feature for England. However, discuss it much and we'll hit some US politics flashpoints, I think.

Good point . . . .

There are less than 40 years or so after her dying and the NHS coming into fruition. Not too big a gap, she could pop up a few turns before the NHS wonder is completed, that might work.


It is best to keep US politics regarding health out though, wise words indeed me old fruitbat.

[steveg700]

Maybe it's just a bad idea.

If you take physical wonders, then I think USA I think Statue of Liberty - but that's already in World Wonders.

If I think unique Great People then the people who come to mind are already in Great Artists, Great Scientists.

The civs already have a unique ability - you're sort of duplicating that.

Nothing's being duplicated. Easy way to think of it: right now, civ's get three unique things. I'm suggesting four. It's expansion, not duplication. I did provide a big long post addressing this comment when MegaBearsFan made it.

I'd say we're not talking about physical constructions or people. More like civ-specific institutions and infrastructure.

[madmike]

Persia:
Library of Baghdad- for each city in the nation with a library when this is built, the building city of this national wonder recieves +10% science (ie 5 cities with libraries other then this one, so gain + 50% science)

France:
Canal du Centre- Must be built in a city next to a ocean and a river, with a market and a harbor. All water-based trade routes provide +150% commerce.

Russia:
Amber Room- Must be built in capital city. For each trade route with the capital, the capital produces +1 gold.

Siam:
Grand Palace- Built in capital, replaces old capital, doubles all previous affects and bonuses from the original palace.

[seanrk924]

Aztec - Temple of Blood: all cities build a temple and all units heal from killing another unit and/or double the amount of healing

[snake509]

Maybe instead of UNW's we give bonuses to complete Social Policies per civ? A bonus for completing more than one? or unique bonuses for completing each with varying degrees of bonus per civ?

[janthony]

How about tying this in with alternate leaders? Instead of adding a new feature, changing a national bonus to fit with the alternate leader. For instance:

Teddy Roosevelt - replace minuteman with buffalo soldier (cavalry)
Ivan the Terrible - replace Cossack with Oprichnik (ranged/melee knight)
Victoria - replace Sun Never Sets with a theme based on empire or repression
Mao - replace the crossbow unit with an industrial infantry unit
Nero - replace Ballista with a building which might change the strategy

The goal would be to add a pre-game decision level to help pinpoint or formulate a strategy. Change the flavor of the nation slightly so you play the nation differently.

[SamBC]

"Sun never sets" is a theme based on empire, and suits Victoria better than it does Elizabeth I. Also not sure how you think Victorian Britain was repressive, especially compared to anything coming before.

[kaybeebiscuits]

Советский медведь (Russia):

Upon building the Soviet Bear, the great Russian nation transmutes into the great Soviet empire, replacing the current monarch (Catherine) with the totalitarian terror of the fearsome Stalin. The player loses the ability to build Kreposts, and all the abilities associated with the Russian empire, and acquires unique abilities of the Soviet empire:

The Iron Curtain (Soviet unique ability): A fibulwinter engulfs the whole of the USSR, bringing the bitter Siberian cold to the front lines of attrition. Any enemy unit entering Soviet territory suffers a -1 HP damage each turn, but this continues until the unit has reached 1 HP. The unit, however, cannot be killed by frostbite.

KGB Agent (Soviet Unique unit): Replaces Scout, can be built in the Modern and Future ages only. Infiltrates enemy territory regardless of open borders. Invisible to all enemy units except cities. 3 moves, unaffected by terrain. Has a 2 hex line of sight all round. Using the unit in a hex with an enemy unit instantly bribes him for 1.5 times its cost.

Mother Russia Statue (Soviet Unique building): Replaces the monument. +1 culture per turn, and adds a propagandistic aura of impregnable Soviet will around the city, causing all units inside and adjacent to the city to receive a 10% increase to strength.

[Cr(+)sshair]

Kennedy Space Center

-50,000,000 gold per turn, +1,000,000,000 science

[mrmunkles]

Kaybeebiscuits,

At first I read your post and thought "he just wants his russia to be op" then I thought about how it would be nice for each civ to evolve and have more uniqueness as it evolved but the basic problem I keep running into is that if every civ doesnt have such a evolution then its really not fair.

As it is now you typically have civs that get their UU's early on or get them fairly late game, a couple straddle the line with a hand in each pot but typically arent anything amazing. But if say you gave Russia, Germany, England, France and Arabia those sort of evolutions then tuned each races benefits to be pre-evolution and post evolution you then are faced with say America who really hasnt been around long enough to have any real evolution like that. What im getting at is that this type of thing would be a drastic imbalance for races that COULD utilize it, double dipping off both ends of the spectrum.

If it could be tuned to be fair for all races, ideally id like the idea of more UU's and abilities for all the races some of your ideas however are somewhat over powered like say Iron Curtain, which was much more of big deal prior to modern armor, flight and general techs which greatly improved army movement and supplies noteably how Napoleon tried to expand into russia twice and failed both times due to supply issues in the bitter russian front. Simply put while its cold and harsh those issues wouldnt really be a problem for a modern army.

I really do like the idea of alternate leaders for a whole different play experience with the same race or even the chance to swap leaders once per nation part way through at the cost of anarchy and general civil disorder for x turns.

[janthony]

That's interesting. CHanging leaders/national focus mid game and incurring some anarchy. And you'd do that with a national project of some sort. And it could happen in different eras for the nation. England's could be the Industrial Revolution. Russia's would be Red October. Iroquois could be Smallpox? So many of them would appear to be revolutions of some sort, which does make sense. It would add flavour to the game, but more importantly, is also completely optional. America could have a civil war, or possibly the Space Race. Hah, I was just thinking about the Industrial Revolution, and how Sun Never Sets is Naval Tradition, the Industrial Revolution could be Merchant Navy, only for all cities and not just coastal ones.

The more you deal with these, the more the projects resemble social policies, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There already is a little bit of blending of the two (Sun Never Sets, for instance). The French Revolution could give you some national turmoil for a few turns in exchange for one of the policies in Rationalism. Red October would do the same for a policy under Order (likely a variation on Communism). It is an interesting idea. Easily adaptable, would not require too many changes, and very open to new ideas.