Civ V a Sinking ship?

[Davor]

I rather have Jon Shaffer fired rather than quit. Yes he left on his own terms, or so was said, so that means Firaxis didn't fire him, so no admitance to that Civ V is sub par game. So what does that leave us? Jon Shaffer quit the mess that he created?

I think Civ V is a mess, many others do not. Ok lets say it's not a mess, so there is no argument here. Why would a guy say he loves Civ, he is a fan, a player and it's an honour blah blah blah to be a lead designer for the game, why would he quit his "baby" then?

To me he is tucking tail and running away. Why would he have to move on to "greener pastures" sort to speak? Is Firaxis that bad? I thought it was suppose to be heaven to work there. (I guess the 20 or more people who got fired one month before release could say otherwise) Why would a young guy in his mid 20's want to leave a supposed top notch company?

Jon Shaffer is no Sid Meir. He is no Brian Reynolds who I believe made 2 of the best games ever, Civ II and Alpha Centauri. While Jon Shaffer fixed the mess that Civ IV was, he made one of his own. He can't think he is that good to be quitting a company and that he is better than them, can he?

Look at Sid. Look at Brian. They both failed misserably, (according to true civ fans, I disagree though) with their Civ Revolution games and online only games. I do not believe Jon is capable to do what Sid and Brian have accomplished. What can Jon do that Sid or Brian can't? I guess time will tell.

But with no comment on Civ V officially, and 2K and Firaxis already having our money, is Civ V a sinking ship now? I for one will not be buying any DLC because I see it only as a quick money grab now that they need to milk Civ V before it runs dry.

No comments on any future DLC or expansion packs. No comments on any plans whats so ever. I really don't want to be negative here, but I finally came back to Civ V after being upset with it, slowly enjoying the game once again, and now this.

Well seeing as today is Sunday, nobody is at work, I guess there will be no comment, but if we hear nothing tomorrow, what can we think? All I can think of is Sinking Ship.

If that is the case or not, who knows, but where is the 2K people to talk about it? I find it very disapointing, 2K only talks about positvie things, but when something negative comes up, they are so quiet.

Not even a comment of " yes Mr Shaffer is gone, but support is still continuing for Civ V and future plans are still being developed". This is very unsettling as a Civ fan. Why should I continue to support a company that can't even be bothered to keep their fans, who support them, support us?

Purpose of this post? I don't know. Just wanted to say my opnion of what I am thinking. I hated the game, when it came out, I gave it a try, I quit it, came back to it after the patch, slowly enjoying the game, and this. I guess I just want to know if I should be worried or not as a fan.

*edit*

I think that Civ V from now on is put to the grave. You are not letting go main designer if product was good, it seems that they make mistake and now they cutting off from this product

I read this on Civfanitics forum. This really worries me. This is why I think so. Civ V is proclaimed by many a great success, money wise. So if this is true, why do you let your Lead Designer go? You offer him more to keep him. You just don't let him go and say "we wish him well".

**edit**

I'm personally not very surprised at his departure. Clearly Civ5 didn't have as positive a reception as 2K / Firaxis (and Jon himself) would have liked - and yes, before half of you get up in arms, I know the majority of the players enjoy it, but you can't deny the significant blowback from the fanbase. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jon decided to leave of his own accord out of disagreements with the direction set by the producers and publishers. I don't think Jon's the bad guy and solely to blame for any flaws in the game, even though I'm not wild about Civ 5.

This could be true as well. Maybe my anger shouldn't be all on Jon himself and 2K/Firaxis is to be blamed themselves. But again, with both parties being quiet, it is usually the lead desinger that takes all the credit when things are good, and takes all the blame when things are bad. With both parites being quiet, what to believe then?

[I Love Pies]

Departure of a lead designer isn't a big deal to worry about. I think you are creating something out of nothing. Civ V is 2K's game and is one of the company's flagship titles. There are other people in 2K/Firaxis that can still provide support. You see people changing jobs and careers quite a bit. It could be his personal decision to pursue something else. Nobody knows. And neither he nor 2K are obligated to tell anyone about what happened.

Why does 2K have to make an announcement of his departure anyway? To me, it makes zero difference whatsoever because having the lead designer departed from the company doesn't excuse 2K/Firaxis from ending support for this game. To me, that is a given, a common sense. And 2K/Firaxis has been releasing patches and hotfixes and DLC's clearly showing me that they are supporting the game.

Now, what you do with your precious time is up to you. If you don't like the game in general or find the game too frustrating to play, then that's your choice. Everyone seems to have varying experiences with the game from one extreme to the other, and that's what is expected from computer games. However, I feel that your compassion with the game may have become a bit too dramatic in this case.

[Davor]

I believe you are correct. I may have been a bit too dramatic in this case, but that is how I feel. While nothing can be done about Civ V right now, what is done is done, but showing 2K/Firaxis (I never seen a publisher mentioned so much in a game before, it is like they made Civ V instead of Firaxis) how I feel now, maybe they will not do it for Civ VI or other games.

Just because I am still here, it shows how much I care about the game, and I don't want to see anything like this happen again.

[I Love Pies]

I believe you are correct. I may have been a bit too dramatic in this case, but that is how I feel. While nothing can be done about Civ V right now, what is done is done, but showing 2K/Firaxis (I never seen a publisher mentioned so much in a game before, it is like they made Civ V instead of Firaxis) how I feel now, maybe they will not do it for Civ VI or other games.

Just because I am still here, it shows how much I care about the game, and I don't want to see anything like this happen again.

I can't blame you for being passionate about Civ. It's been a great series and has provided countless hours of enjoyment.

Still though, having a lead designer leaving the company gives 2K/Firaxis zero excuse to even think about stopping support for Civ 5. And I don't think they are that irrational to even think that to begin with. More than anything, they would probably have to be more coordinated, more focused in their direction, and most likely put up more efforts to provide support.

All I can say about this situation is that it is unfortunate to see that it happened. In the meantime, Civ V will still live and go on, and just like all other computer games, it will go through its life cycle. Whether it will be as successful as previous Civ games will be unanswered for a while. All we can do is to play it until we no longer find it enjoyable, which I hope won't happen anytime soon.

[Dale]

Having the lead designer move to another project after the initial release is common. You don't pay big bucks to lead designers to make expansions and DLC, that's left to juniors. Soren moved onto something else after Civ 4 initial release, and then moved onto EA a short time later. My take is Jon finished Civ 5, looked around at his options and chose to move onto a new project at a new studio.

I think we'll find him pop up somewhere else getting more pay in a short time.

[psikoticsilver]

Jon Shaffer may be responsible for DESIGN errors being introduced into the game, but he's not responsible for PROGRAMMING errors or that the product was rushed out.

These faults are of the the programming director/lead engineer and 2K games. 2K is also responsible for firing a large sum of QA analysts.

[Furball]

Overall i feel the game design concept is good and i am enjoying it a lot more than previous versions. Theres a few niggly bits i would have preffered to be different but that has been the case in every civ game as they always change a little and your so used to the old way things worked.

The issue has arrisen from the deplorable state of the game itself.i.e bugs and programming issues which is not really Shaffers fault.
People want someone to blame poor Jon Shaffer is the only target they have because he is the public face of the game, he's the person with his name tied to it.

Jon Shaffer has done his bit, he's designed a generally great game but he has been let down by others in the team who caused the game to be released when it was far from ready. Him sticking around would do nothing as all he can simply do is remind people how things are meant to work, they already know how their meant to work, they simply have to fix the game so they do work.

If you want to ☺☺☺☺☺ at people then i suggest you find out who's idea it was to release it in such a bad state and who is responsible for the slow uptake on fixing issues and lack of information about what is going on. Their the people we should be concerned about and who we should be talking to/about. Jon Shaffer was old news as soon as the game was released.

[Jazzterisk]

But with no comment on Civ V officially, and 2K and Firaxis already having our money, is Civ V a sinking ship now? I for one will not be buying any DLC because I see it only as a quick money grab now that they need to milk Civ V before it runs dry.

This is what I fear. If Firaxis and 2K cut and run that's the last they will see of any more of my money. I won't be buying any other DLC until I hear about what they have planned for Civ V in the future. It's not like Firaxis to let a Civ game die but it's also not like them to release a game with so many flaws. I was starting to warm up the game again when I read Sulla's review of the game (post dec patch). It opened my eyes again.

So if it's true that the devs and 2K brass read these threads they should be getting off their butts and giving us some information on the direction Civ's going to take. Just pumping out DLC with no other information is an insult to all the devoted fans.
Firaxis for one should be the one's treated all the fans like gold. If it wasn't for the rabid devotion of all the Civ fans buying anything called Civ this company would have died long ago. This loyalty has allowed Sid et al. at Firaxis to make other games by providing a constant influx of money.
If they want to risk blowing these fans off thinking that Facebook Civ or whatever is going to make up for it they'll soon learn that it's a fickle community there and the loyalty they've had does not come easily.

So to Firaxis - come on give us an update! We're all wondering what's happening with Civ now that you turfed your lead guy. It doesn't look promising and I for one will not spend another dime until I hear some information.

[2K Elizabeth]

We're committed to Civilization V - you don't have to worry or speculate about that.

[Davor]

Do you have a link to Sulas review of the game? I was so sadden by his review, but I got the game before I read it. I would like to see in what he changed his mind about the game post patch.

So true about loyalty Jazz. I told my wife about Sid making a Facebook Civ game or something like that, she rolled her eyes. While there is a company out there that just makes Facebooks game, and it has made more money than EA, not everyone is like this. I guess they think they can do it as well, but as we can see with Civ Revolution (which I love by the way) not everyone will flock to a Civ game just because "Sid" is on the name.

I just want to see an expansion come out. Then we will really know if Civ V is a success, since if the expansions don't sell, then Civ V isn't an success because people quit on the game. Right now Civ V is a success because it almost sold 1 million copies if not more, but it will be interesting to see how many expansions sell.

Don't you find it curious how 2K/Firaxis is not tooting it's own horn now on the sales of DLC? Is that because they are not selling to well by chance?

[Davor]

We're committed to Civilization V - you don't have to worry or speculate about that.

Oh I hope so. This is a bit reasuring now. Thanks you.

[Jazzterisk]

We're committed to Civilization V - you don't have to worry or speculate about that.

Thank you. It's good to hear!

Originally Posted by Davor:

Do you have a link to Sulas review of the game? I was so sadden by his review, but I got the game before I read it. I would like to see in what he changed his mind about the game post patch.

Here it is. It's a very very interesting read.

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html

Warning: If you are a Civ V team member it's not for the faint of heart as no punches are pulled. Thankfully.
Honestly, Sulla should be the one person Firaxis hire to right what's wrong in Civ V.

[Davor]

Thanks Jazz, going to read it now. I believe Sula was a Civ IV beta tester but they didn't want him or choose him to beta Civ V sadly.

[Panda_Power]

I think Firaxis should hire Sulla to sort out the game in the same way Stardock hired Kael to sort out Elementary.

[Oerdin]

According to the PR people no one ever gets fired and every person who does get fired the PR people tell the public that they resigned. It's just like all those politicians facing charges retire to "spend time with their family". Shafer got fired and this is a defacto admission that Civ5 is a disappointment for them.

[Davor]

According to the PR people no one ever gets fired and every person who does get fired the PR people tell the public that they resigned. It's just like all those politicians facing charges retire to "spend time with their family". Shafer got fired and this is a defacto admission that Civ5 is a disappointment for them.

I was watching Family Guy:It's a trap. When the Emporer told Skywalker to be by his side, Darth Stewie asked if can say he resign. I laughed so much thinking of Firaxis/2K and Jon Shaffer here.

Well I read Sulla's review, and it's quite true. I beleive if the words "Sid Mier" were not on Civ V, then the review would not be so harsh, but having the name "Sid Mier" in the title, so much more is expected. Again Civ V was not made for the Civ fan but was made for the common gamer so 2K/Firaxis can make more money. So sadly, me as a Civ fan, I felt that I have been spat in the face and who cares since there is so many more people to make money from.

But once Civ V is gone from the common gamer who is going to buy your games then? When ever I see 2K now, I will be very leary of purchasing the game now. 2K is besides EA, stay away from. I still haven't bought Dragon Age Origins because of EA associated with it. Yeah it made it's millions, but in a few years time, you will not be making millions anymore. Then you are going to ask where the "hard core" fans are to be buying your civ games.

The common gamer will their Civ fix, so they will not need Civ VI for thier fix anymore because they are not really a fan of I should say "lover" of the series.

[Oerdin]

Yeah, 2K and EA are both bright red warning flags for me. Both generally mean rushed sloppy games with no connection to the other games in the series it is supposed to be a sequel to. I know the gaming industry is harsh and that producers often squeeze the last drop of blood out of the developers but this game is beyond even that. I've owned and played every version of Civ since 1992 (when I bought Civ1) except for Civ Rev which I found so horrible I couldn't bring myself to buy it but this is the first version I truly felt like someone was just milking a cow instead of trying to put out a decent product. Even the much maligned CTP2 had the redeeming feature of a great MP set up with lots of hot keys and being COMPLETELY moddable in every way. I honestly scratched my head trying to come up with one place where I think Civ5 is better then Civ4 and I couldn't come up with anything. The whole thing seems to be a step backwards and less user friendly.

[Olenthros]

complaining complaining complaining think I'll find a different thread to read.

[Zenicetus]

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html

All that text, and then we find out toward the bottom that he thinks one of the major deal-killers is one unit per tile?

I'm not saying there aren't problems that need to be addressed in this game, but complaining about the basic design isn't helping things. It's like complaining that chess doesn't play like checkers.

[Davor]

All that text, and then we find out toward the bottom that he thinks one of the major deal-killers is one unit per tile?

I'm not saying there aren't problems that need to be addressed in this game, but complaining about the basic design isn't helping things. It's like complaining that chess doesn't play like checkers.

Complaining? Really? Really now? Damn I been watching Miz to much lol. Sulla was not complaining at all. He was giving his opnion of the game. He made an excellent review and even explained why of what he thought.

So explaining something now is complaining? First fan who like Civ V ask for proof and explanations, and when one is given it's a complaint now? Sulla was not complaining at all.

So once again, if you do not say or agree that Civ V is a great game, then you are complaining. So if you are not complaining, what are you then? A fanboi? It goes both ways with the degragotory names.

Is there any Civ V fans besides 2K Greg, who respects peoples opnion of Civ V when they say negative things about it? I have never seen or here 2K Greg say any of us complain and wants our critisim and opnions. Sulla I believe written it the best. No name calling, and explaining himself and giving examples, what more can you ask for? If anything 2K Greg should direct this to the Civ V team of what ever is left of it, and have them read it.

[Taciturn Scot]

Davor

seriously, why do you need to read other people's opinions of the game? Especially when such opinions sadden you? Don't you trust your own judgement in these matters? I respect YOUR opinion but I can't respect someone who is spouting other people's opinions, 'downloaded opinions'. I like Civ V a LOT. I have read a lot of negative crap here, and some very pertinent criticisms too. I know the game's not perfect and still has some ways to go before it is an all-round better game than Civ IV was at the end of its life. But, at the end of the day, I still like this game and what I read here won't make much difference to my opinion because it's based on MY playing experience. You seem to be wavering from day to day depending on what you have read here or on other Civ sites.

[Schdcd]

If it wasn't for the modding capabilities, I'd say this game is a "sinking ship", but since Civ V is very moddable, I could say with certainty that this game will be fixed by modders someday. I'd love to see New Dawn-mod made for Civ V.

I haven't really even touched Civ V since I started a new 3000 turn long game in New Dawn. I really missed breaking down empires with proxy wars, igniting civil wars and causing them an economic breakdown by taking all my export resources away from them and watching their cities burn as the people riot. This. Is. Golden.

[SamBC]

Hey, there's more connection to the series in this Civ game than there will be in the upcoming X-Com game... also 2k...

[brxbrx]

sales are good. they'll want to release an expansion or two to capitalize on that.

[Hounds]

Yup. This the worse civ game by miles & miles & miles & miles... They still havent fixed game ending crashes, diplomacy is still fubared & the AI is still retarded. Worst Civ ever, period.

[Furball]

Reading Sulla's review is pretty much like hearing a child complain i have to say. While there are some valid point buried away in the crying there is also a lot of contradiction.e.g. going to great length to say their is no punishment for expanding then later going to great length to say that punishment for expanding is a bad game design? It's also based on what he wants and not necessarily what is best for the game. He doesn't like the way things work so instead of adjusting to the way it plays, the game is just rubbish.e.g. a prime example, 1upt...he wants to play old style civ spamming endless units to simply win by quantity rather than quality. The maps don;t generally support that style of play so instead of adjusting and building smaller, more flexible armies and using them well instead he builds a huge army, fills up his map and complains it doesn't work...

[Zenicetus]

Sulla I believe written it the best. No name calling, and explaining himself and giving examples, what more can you ask for? If anything 2K Greg should direct this to the Civ V team of what ever is left of it, and have them read it.

Davor, why should the 2K team read Sulla's review? I'm sure they know that some former Civ IV fans don't like the move to 1upt. The devs are not going to suddenly re-write the game engine to support Civ IV's stacks of doom, just because some people can't adjust, or refuse to adjust, to the new design.

[brxbrx]

Davor, why should the 2K team read Sulla's review? I'm sure they know that some former Civ IV fans don't like the move to 1upt. The devs are not going to suddenly re-write the game engine to support Civ IV's stacks of doom, just because some people can't adjust, or refuse to adjust, to the new design.

The devs should listen to all reviews. Sulla's too. He offered good criticism. I don't support a return to stacks of doom, though. Those were a pain. No matter how many you killed, still a dozen more there. Sometimes you couldn't even see all the units present because the pop-up was too short.

[Valkrionn]

According to the PR people no one ever gets fired and every person who does get fired the PR people tell the public that they resigned. It's just like all those politicians facing charges retire to "spend time with their family". Shafer got fired and this is a defacto admission that Civ5 is a disappointment for them.

I hope you all realize exactly how ridiculous this is.

Lead designers rarely stay on for patch/expansion work; Generally speaking, that's where newer designers get their shot. To cite a previous example, look at Civ4.

Soon after release, the lead designer, Soren Johnson, left the company. IIRC, he went to go work on Spore. The game was then picked up by another designer (My apologies, cannot remember the name) who worked on Warlords, before also leaving to work on other projects. Beyond the Sword was led by Jon Shafer... Who then got his shot as lead design for Civ5.

This is the nature of the industry, and is entirely to be expected.

[brxbrx]

I hope you all realize exactly how ridiculous this is.

Lead designers rarely stay on for patch/expansion work; Generally speaking, that's where newer designers get their shot. To cite a previous example, look at Civ4.

Soon after release, the lead designer, Soren Johnson, left the company. IIRC, he went to go work on Spore. The game was then picked up by another designer (My apologies, cannot remember the name) who worked on Warlords, before also leaving to work on other projects. Beyond the Sword was led by Jon Shafer... Who then got his shot as lead design for Civ5.

This is the nature of the industry, and is entirely to be expected.

watch as no one listens.

[Olenthros]

clean cup clean cup move down move down.

[Valkrionn]

watch as no one listens.

I'm really not expecting them to. It is still how the industry functions; There really is no cause for concern there.

As I said, it has happened with many other games. Particularly when the company is small and only has the one IP, where they will not need a Lead Designer for several years.

[brxbrx]

I'm really not expecting them to. It is still how the industry functions; There really is no cause for concern there.

As I said, it has happened with many other games. Particularly when the company is small and only has the one IP, where they will not need a Lead Designer for several years.

another industry function: teen fanboys' blood-pressure spiking while speculating into the wee hours of the night about how the end is coming.

[Wenla]

Reading Sulla's review is pretty much like hearing a child complain i have to say. While there are some valid point buried away in the crying there is also a lot of contradiction.e.g. going to great length to say their is no punishment for expanding then later going to great length to say that punishment for expanding is a bad game design? It's also based on what he wants and not necessarily what is best for the game. He doesn't like the way things work so instead of adjusting to the way it plays, the game is just rubbish.e.g. a prime example, 1upt...he wants to play old style civ spamming endless units to simply win by quantity rather than quality. The maps don;t generally support that style of play so instead of adjusting and building smaller, more flexible armies and using them well instead he builds a huge army, fills up his map and complains it doesn't work...

I must have been reading a different review...

[Oerdin]

complaining complaining complaining think I'll find a different thread to read.

Is that a complaint? How ironic.

[2K Greg]

Hey guys,

Jon's departure from Firaxis has not impacted our plans to continue to support and improve Civilization V as we have been since release. More patches are definitely on their way!

[MarkAntony]

Is any depth, strategy, involvment or stuff to do being added?

[Jazzterisk]

Hey guys,

Jon's departure from Firaxis has not impacted our plans to continue to support and improve Civilization V as we have been since release. More patches are definitely on their way!

Thanks 2KGreg! I needed this.
Cheers.

[JimMac99]

Hey guys,

Jon's departure from Firaxis has not impacted our plans to continue to support and improve Civilization V as we have been since release. More patches are definitely on their way!

That is reassuring to read, Gregg.
Looking forward to another of your Forthcoming Patch Details thread. (Here's hoping for terrain re-balancing; in order to make differences in terrain & bonuses more noticable and meaningful)

[Rundstedt]

And will that next patch finally address he late game crash on large maps? As it is now I have never come close to being able to finish a game and the product is little more than a waste of space on my computer. And yes, my computer is at or above the upper level specs required... I have an ATI 5830 graphics card for example... reference my calls under the reference number 224978 from the many phone calls I have made to the product support line where I have sent them my DXdiag Info and other requested information. I am tempted to start a thread asking if we need a class action suit; because as it is, the game is not what was promised. It certinally shouldn't have been released in the state it was in, and the lack of a fix, or even an acknowledgement of the seriousness of the problem, amplifies the frustration and disgust with the product. NO OTHER ISSUES SHOULD MATTER UNTIL THE GAME CRASH PROBLEM IS FIXED... AND SOON!!