Issues with the new diplomacy system

[Geppenguin]

As shocking as it sounds, I actually preferred the Pact of Cooperation/Secrecy system. The current system leads to too much ganging up and it doesn't have enough provisions for acts of goodwill. For example, if I help someone out in a war when he asks me to, it doesn't make them friendlier to me. If my 'friend' asks me for something like gold or resources, the only advantage I get from them is that they DON'T feel angry about it. Denunciation and declarations of friendship should be reversible and not permanent, nor should the AI be angry over a war that happened a hundred turns before, or the fact that you WERE a warmonger. From experience, the whole diplomacy system usually devolves into EVERYONE denouncing EVERYONE and no more Decleration's of Friendship still existing by mid-game. Everyone hates everyone. Liberating a worker makes them happy; but liberating a city? NO. And these 'friendship points' should stack, like repeatedly liberating workers/ helping out in war should lead to better relations.
The AI also backstabs me for no good reason, or maybe just over competing for influence over a city state and this sets off a chain reaction where everyone else denounces me just because one of my friends saw reason to. WTF?
So, bring back the Pacts of Cooperation. And Secrecy. Please? At least the AI didn't hate me so much back then And we wouldn't end up with things like a 20 civ FFA
Even better, bring back Civ 4 diplomacy

[Swordfishtrombone]

I voted "neither better or worse", as some things are better (more feedback, the basic IDEA of pacts of friendship and denouncements), and some things are wose (the actual, poorly balanced IMPLEMENTATION of pacts of friendship and denouncements, which easily leads in to a domino effect of denouncing), and some flaws weren't addressed (there not being enough ways to improve relations, no diplo benefit for giving gifts, or liberating nations, the ease at which you get a warmongerer reputation, the never expiring reputation hits, the AI conquring or founding a city right next to you, and then complaining that you're too close).

On the whole, I do think it was a step forward, because if and when the denouncement and friendship related diplo bonuses are better balanced, I think it'll be a better systm than the old pacts. The diplo system needs more work though.

Though I still would give priority to fixing the crash issues on large and huge maps - they are so commonplace, and so game stopping, that it's inexcusable that they haven't been fixed already, this many months after the release of the game.

[Geppenguin]

I haven't had many issues with crashes though, even though I play only 19 civ Huge map games, it happens only occasionally and only after I've been playing too long...
The new diplo system may be better in principle, but in actual gameplay it's very very frustrating.
Personally, i think the patch would have been perfect without the addition of DoF and Denunciations. But that's just me

[Saurus the Second]

The new diplomacy system was simply far from beeing finished when released. For instance, a Civ may denouce me and I may denouce him. He appear angry in the diplo screen - while at the same time the diplo screen insists, that the civ in question is FRIENDLY toward me. This is even though there is no positives weighing in into the total - now try to understand that ...

[DoctorStrangelove]

It's obviously still not working as intended, but it's much less obscure now that you can see what's everyone is up to and why.

[TheAntika]

Though I still would give priority to fixing the crash issues on large and huge maps - they are so commonplace, and so game stopping, that it's inexcusable that they haven't been fixed already, this many months after the release of the game.

I think that an overhaul of the current diplomacy should get the same priority as fixing the crash issues, because diplomacy has ever been and still is a key element of civ. Having a frustrating, unlogical and unbalanced diplomatic system prevents me from having fun playing that game. Everytime I think: "They would not have reacted like that, if diplomacy had already been fixed."

[brxbrx]

My problem is that it's simply broken. A lot of the ideas are fine (such as denouncements), but are implemented horribly (see denouncement chains).

I also dislike the "AI plays to win" thing. I really like a bit of suspension of disbelief, and I think that could be maintained without losing out on the "challenging AI."

[Balthazaar]

Id say "its an improvement over the old one" but not a great one

[SamBC]

It doesn't need fixing from scratch; I think that the structure is fine, it just needs an awful lot of tuning, and some tweaks. Mostly changing some numbers, and possibly adding in some new factors and decay processes.

[fchopin]

I am beginning to believe that diplomacy is broken also as they are acting and behaving very irrational in my games, it's like they need to see a doctor.

[ManOverGame]

I really do think that this new diplomacy set up is just as worse as the previous or even more. Every game ends in civs that are either hostile or guarded and the "friendly" ones usually act guarded. Everything revolves around denouncements way too much and I'm still sick of civs randomly backstabbing me. Negative factors build up too fast but the way to build up good ones is to have the same denouncements as another civilization and friendship pact. Giving gifts, accepting requests, trading often, and initiating research agreements should build up over time. And there should be an option to lend troops to civilizations at war that contributes way more positive reputation(city states can do it, why not civlizations?)

[Geppenguin]

If any devs are reading this, can we have our Civ 4 diplomacy system back? Please??????? :P

[TexasRoughRider]

Emperor-level single player who has seen a German game ruined by the patch, then ruined again when I replayed it....Second post above is a bullseye (except as to priority), as are similar posts following: denunciation chains ruin the game, especially AI denunciations that can provoke chains even when the denunciation is groundless/trivial/artificial. Backstabbing is overdone and undermines the declaration mechanism, which appears to be nearly worthless. Overall, the new diplo structure is fine, and probably will be even better than the old structure, once the balance is restored -- but oh my gosh, the balance is TERRIBLE. The overarching principle of game design seems to be: using diplo as a non-balanced limit on warmongering offends us by taking us out of the game's essential premise and "mindset" -- best way to fix is to add back plenty of positives, cut down on the petty backstabbing and eliminate the chains, except for genuinely egregious warmongering. In the meantime, thoguh I've been a dedicated and happy player since Civ III, I'm thinking about not playing for 6 months -- I'm tired of being an "ambushed beta tester".

[NitroPhantasm]

I don't see any difference to the pre-patch release.

[Swordfishtrombone]

I've noticed that you can reduce the risk of the denouncement-domino effect by not eliminating anyone from the game. You can take all their cities, but leave one. After you eliminate them completely, that'll apparently give you a reall baddy reputation, which'll often tip one of your friends over to denouncing you, giving you another hit with all of your other friends, who'll then most probably denounce you one after the other.

[brxbrx]

I've noticed that you can reduce the risk of the denouncement-domino effect by not eliminating anyone from the game. You can take all their cities, but leave one. After you eliminate them completely, that'll apparently give you a reall baddy reputation, which'll often tip one of your friends over to denouncing you, giving you another hit with all of your other friends, who'll then most probably denounce you one after the other.

I've never eliminated anyone, but I've certainly suffered the effect. Followed by multiple wars.

[TexasRoughRider]

Confirmed, I played the Emperor/German game both ways: around turn 140, eliminating Siam's last city, and then not doing so (the circling Samurai of Japan finished it off a few turns later) -- my eliminating the last city provoked a nasty Arabian comment (I'm a barbarian/animal/whatever) from the only nation leading mine...this effect was also in Civ IV and makes some sense. As I had already suffered a Siam-provoked denunciation chain before I even invaded Siam (Siam apparently wanted my double-luxury border cities), the "animal" thing could not make my position worse.

Question: does anyone have observations about the effect of city razings?

[ijazbof]

I propose the creation of a "Why?" Button on some screens, like Diplomacy messages. So, for instance when you get denounced you can get a detailed list of "offending" actions. I think that Civilization IV or III had something like a feature that listed the list of offenses a Civ had against you, like the number of times you have declared, war, etc.

Regards
Hugo Alberto

[Furball]

For me the extremely dire diplomacy is what is holding me back from calling this a great game and simply leaving it at a good game.

Unsolvable mysteries are not a good game mechanic to have as all they do is lead to frustration. It's ok saying they want the AI to be more human but all they have done is taken a very small part of humanity and made all the AI seem to act like that. That part being commonly know as a ☺☺☺☺.

As Ijazbof said the simply question, Why? is missing. Or more accurately the answer to why the AI's simply hate you and act like cocks towards you. It's fine having one or 2 that simply hate you, but there needs to be others you can talk to and reason with and interact with in a reasonable manner as well.

The denouncement system is the worst offender in the question of why. Denouncements happen seemingly at random with no explanation at all. We can guesstimate why but no one really knows. I don't have an issue with being punished if i have done something wrong but i have a serious issue if i am punished and have no reason why, as i am sure most people do.
Punishment is meant to teach you a lesson. Punishment without a lesson behind it is simple sadism

[brxbrx]

I propose the creation of a "Why?" Button on some screens, like Diplomacy messages. So, for instance when you get denounced you can get a detailed list of "offending" actions. I think that Civilization IV or III had something like a feature that listed the list of offenses a Civ had against you, like the number of times you have declared, war, etc.

Regards
Hugo Alberto

well it's a good idea, but yikes, check the thread's date

[ludd_gang]

I liked the old Pacts of Secrecy too.

[PhailRaptor]

Where's my "a step in the right direction, but needs more work" vote option?