Well where is 2kGreg?
maybe He can enlighten us on why we bought a half finished game?
maybe he can help us to get a refund also?
Well where is 2kGreg?
maybe He can enlighten us on why we bought a half finished game?
maybe he can help us to get a refund also?
Not at all, the onus is on the company, to have consistent information everywhere.Originally Posted by inseeisyou
Correct information, is the last posted information however.
Some posters HERE have known that there was no hotseat from before launch, and keep insisting it was guaranteed at launch.
People who see that one site, may get mislead, and as such, that one website, (and an FAQ entry if i read it right) need to be corrected.
You didnt buy a half finished game, the cut features were announced before launch.
Once cut, they are no longer features of the game, and having them not included, does not equate to half finished
The official 2K support site states hotseat "is being worked on".
Well, we know that to be a blatant lie, don't we?
http://support.2kgames.com/help/take...s/CivV_hotseat
"Half Finished" is obviously an exaggeration. You are drastically underestimating the extent of misinformation about hotseat however. You repeat "one site" twice and then put "faq entry" in parenthesis as kind of an afterthought but if you read through all the posts you will actually find it mentioned in even more places than the (two places) you mention.
There is a very real possibility that even TODAY, someone could look at the 2K website and believe the game had hotseat, and purchase it believing as such. It is very clear, direct source information and the burden is not on the consumer to verify direct source information.
Does it not even bother you that you are here vigorously defending them and 2KGreg is no where to be found? :P
Im defending NOTHING
Some posters, are taking old pages (that need to be updated) and using them to wage a campaign of misinformation.
These specific posters, were told, and knew, prior to the launch of the game, that hotseat, would not be included.
Since then, the feature has had its ETA removed, it is as simple as this, there is no over-reaching conspiracy.
A website, has old information, that needs to be updated, end of story, there is nothing for anyone to defend here, it should have been done as soon as the change was made, but in a large company, where there are literally hundreds of divisions, not all places can be on the same page, in regards to changes
It stinks, and it needs to be fixed, but basing an attack on it, when you personally were told that the information was wrong BEFORE the product launch, is disingenuous at best, delusional at worst.
Although I still wouldn't be happy with the scenario you described, it is worse than that. You make it seem that the record was totally, 100% set right by the time the game was released. As has been pointed out in multiple places, even after the game was released we were told hotseat would be available "shortly" or "in a few weeks".
While it certainly would be prudent to actually wait until hotseat was HERE, it is not unimaginable that some folks could have purchased the game with these statements in mind. We were told something simple and point blank - which did not turn out to be true. While I agree some folks are certainly going a little over the top, sitting here six months later with nothing on hot seat after the promises that were made and well documented is hardly disingenuous or delusional.
It's quite possible that some person out there bought Civ 5 for the Hotseat function, based on one of those incorrect web pages. If they are dissatisfied with the product, they should take it up with the company. But I'd bet that every person posting on this thread about the 2k "cover-up" is aware that Greg has been saying for months that there is no ETA. That effectively supersedes any other, earlier claim. It also means the record was set straight for every person involved in this dialogue. And Greg has then consistently underlined the point for everyone who can't take "no ETA" for an answer.
That's true.
Look everyone. It's clear. 2k is gonna deliver hotseat but it turned out much harder to do than they thought. It sucks - I know. I truly believe they'll deliver it though. They cannot meet any timeline impied or stated because it turns out to be harder than any of them thought. Cut them some slack so they can get the job done. My son and I do not bother playing CIV V at all because there is no hotseat - which is why I bought it. Oh well. Now if I found out 2k decided not to deliver... that would be another story. I am confident they will though.
I've never stated a conspiracy only that it is impossible for 2k Greg to not have known about the FAQ post for 6 months when it has been repeatedly quoted. That is my personal beef, being lied to.
I sincerely hope that the promise of hotseat is delivered soon as another dlc pack would be insulting beyond reason. I am losing hope because 2k, just last year, delayed a promised improvement for Bioshock 2 PC then attempted to renege on that promise until the community and the news protest caused them to reconsider. Now, I am not saying that is what is going to happen, only that 2K has a track record on such things.
You give the programmers very little credit. Hot seat has been done many times before in many games. While I'm sure Civ 5 has it's own unique twists and challenges, I give the devs enough credit that they understood at least a basic time frame and man hour requirement to complete a hot seat feature. It is much more believable that they simply decided not to devote the development resources.
Are we to believe that highly skilled and professional game developers went from believing a hot seat feature would be ready in a few weeks to over six months because of some totally unforeseen difficulty? Which of the following scenarios is more believable...
"Well Jim, it looks like hot seat is going to take more than the few weeks we discussed and probably more like 8 months because gosh darn it wouldn't you know the new code has to be 10 times as long as all previous hot seat programs we were basing our estimates on"
or
"Well Jim, Civ 5 sales have pretty much peaked out and due to the recent staff cuts we need to reassign all these personnel to getting this other project out the door, we'll get back to these other changes when time permits..."
Yes. That about sums it up. I suspect the demand in computer resources quite evident in the game have made it harder than anticipated to accomplish hotseat. I give them credit for working on it - in good faith. I don't think you are giving them credit for working on it.
To this you can add that they are advertising for someone who can do Hotseat (which will almost certainly be part of an MP patch). Once they fill that job, an ETA should appear on the horizon.
So your stance is pretty much that they had every intention of completing hot seat in the "soon" time frame or within a few weeks of launch but technical difficulties arose and they have spent the last six months working hard on it in good faith? What led you to believe this, as opposed to my suggestion that they intentionally tabled it to save development resource with no regard for what had been promised.
This perhaps?
Or this?
Or perhaps...
These statements are really not giving me the "Well gee guys, we had every intention of honoring that "soon" time frame but we have been diligently working through the difficulties for the last 6 months." feeling.
Well... All those game crashes tied to AI movement... Logically, what would happen if you add hotseat before fixing that? Seems like hotseat would aggravate the problem. Hotseat and Multiplayer are connected as well. Some multiplayer issues may very well be tied to hotseat. I *am* guessing. I could also be making someone on the team laugh out loud... But the unanticipated problems with the AI and multiplayer may be the horses that must be placed before hotseat cart.
Ah, well this is certainly a more believable scenario, that it wasn't the difficulty of implementing hotseat that caused a six month delay but rather the unforeseen number of major problems with their release that have been keeping them busy. As a customer though, that just doesn't give me the warm fuzzy... "Sorry you aren't getting the hot seat in the time frame we promised but lets face it, what came in the box had some major issues that took month after month of hard work to repair."
Last edited by inseeisyou; 03-23-2011 at 02:21 AM.
The website had been ghost corrected in the same manner as the FAQ as of this morning.
The reason I haven't really come here to say any more on the matter is because there really is nothing more to say.
I apologize for there being incorrect information on these forums and on the product page on 2kgames.com. I'm certainly not perfect, and sometimes things slip through the cracks.
All of the posts about hotseat that have come directly from me have been the exact same since release: It will come, but there is no ETA. That has been our official stance about the feature since before release. I am, once again, sorry that there did exist incorrect information outside of my posts. I thank you for bringing it to my attention so that I could get it corrected (the 2kgames.com listing has also been corrected.)
Hopefully that explains the "total silence" you're talking about. There's simply nothing more to say. When I have information on hotseat, I will give it to you. But I just plain don't have any right now.
Greg. Okay, there's no eta. Is there an etd? a timetable to begin development? Summer, Fall, Winter? If the truth is "We are in the process of hiring a multi-player programmer, and we will not have an eta on Hotseat until after this is accomplished," could you just say that? If not, why not? Where is the harm in simply saying 6 months ago -- or taking the opportunity right now to state clearly -- that it may be many more months before there's even an eta on Hotseat? Because then those of us to whom the ability to play this game with our families matters could stop bothering to check in here every day. And if it turned out that Hotseat came through in a matter of weeks, we'd be pleasantly surprised rather than perpetually disappointed.
I agree with Muddle. After 6 months, this no eta answer is no longer enough. Whether you have no more to say or not, this answer has become irrelevant without more information. Had I known back in September that in late March I would still be waiting I would have returned the game immediately but now, since I believed your now "incorrect, confusing" information I have no such option.
There is your second post, dated 10-28
Thats consistent with all the information released since.
What is "incorrect, and confusing" in this information
The fact that part of the information I was workingoff of was the common problems FAQ that you yourself use.
Not to mention, he said then he was trying to get us an eta to which, 6 months later, I'm glad I did not hold my breathe.
I dont use any FAQ, and none of your early posts, indicate you used, or knew about it, either.
The information has been consistent since you have been here, "No EtA, ill see if i can get one"
There is still no ETA
So, you never ever point anyone to a FAQ or expect any forum goer to ever read a FAQ before posting, especially one that explicitly states "read before posting"?
I did not reference it right off because I though it could be taken for granted as accurate as it was posted by TechIan. Shortly in of itself is not a real eta but only a rough estimate without a primary timeframe hence why I was always asking for something more concrete. I do not understand why this is difficult to comprehend.
If you look at your own early posting history, youll see exactly why it is difficult to comprehend
This is hilarious. Your last few posts remind me of Jon Stewart's "gotcha" moments.
More on topic, I doubt 2K will offer more detail about "no ETA," because that is their company policy. If it were "some time after we hire somebody," it would no longer be "no ETA." You don't have to like it - it just is what it is. You will learn of Hotseat's ETA when Greg posts it.
Fine, I understand. No official post of information has any validity unless it us current to the few days around when it was posted. No one is expected to read a FAQ and utilize that information without referencing it. 2k is allowed to, on it's own whim and without prior notice, edit posts that it deems not conducive to it's current policy. Should anyone complain, it is obviously their fault and not 2k's. Forum members here are expected to understand that 2k is never wrong and always consistent even when the facts speak otherwise. Anger is always interpreted as "trolling."
Did I miss anything?
There was something more that needed to be said, and there it is. You certainly have been consistent in denying ETAs on, well... almost anything. And I can't blame you for that. But you must realize as the community spokesperson we are going to hold you accountable for claims or promises other folks on your team made.
By the way, you should carefully read through all the links provided in this thread, you missed at least one someone pointed out: http://support.2kgames.com/help/take...s/CivV_hotseat
We're actually currently in the middle of overhauling our entire support site, partially to prevent oversights like this from occurring in the future. So that page will be fixed before long!
First of all, this is trolling. Sarcastic comments like this aren't constructive and only lead to arguments. Any further comments in this thread from anyone that are trollish in nature or potshots at other forum members will be infracted, and banned if necessary.
To address your actual points: Yes, we are allowed to edit our posts without prior notice. If I find something that is factually incorrect in one of our official posts, I will most definitely correct it! Depending on the severity of the error, I will usually make a post explaining the correction so that people who notice it aren't confused. Surely you don't think that leaving the error in place is preferable!
And to your comment about fault, I would like to point out that I have apologized in this very thread; it was my fault for not catching that mistake earlier.
My apologies Greg, I let QT get to me. I will try to be more vigilant in the future. I understand what happened and while I am very angry about being misled and I feel deceived by the method of correction, I personally accept your apology and believe you meant no harm. Please understand just how frustrating it is to see no change, week by week, month by month, and then suddenly to see one of the only pseudo timeframes eliminated. Then compound that by being constantly attacked by other members if the community who don't understand.
Greg is there no ETA on the ETA as of now?
Hamhawk, the only difference that has happened recently, is those entries were brought to the attention of TPTB.
In one of your posts, you stated, that information on the forums, is not official, and you kept hammering at the information, that had been refuted, because it was only refuted on the forums.
It sucks, that this old information clung on so long, but one of the main reasons it did, is very few people knew it was there.
I sure didnt, and ive followed this issue for a long time.
Im not trying to "get to you", part of a debate, is demonstration of where the opposing viewpoint is wrong, and that is all ive been trying to demonstrate.
I do not think you understand the concepts of context and mutual exclusivity. Your argument was not framed in the form of a debate merely an attack on my early posts without any attempt at tact. I do not believe you did it on purpose as it is an underlying pattern to all your posts and such methods can be infuriating. Please understand that this is the sole feature that I care anything about and I feel 100% mislead. I do not have a lot of money to spend on games so I primarily purchase games that I can play with my friends and I sincerely hoped Civ 5 would be the best game for that last year. No matter the logical reason or hypocritical post here and there my sole purpose on these forums is to keep the flame burning for hotseat. Because of this I have been attacked constantly by people who believe that hotseat is not worthwhile or any number of other reasons. I do not feel welcome here at all, I feel I have to fight constantly for the justification of this feature. Please do not mine my post history for an aha moment of hypocrisy. Thank you.
I'm not, i only mine post history, to see if a poster is worth continuing to reply to, when you put your fingers in your ears, and stated that anything on the official forums, are not official enough, you showed to everyone following your crusade, how fanatical you were.
Ignoring official posts, damages your position, it doesn't strengthen it
Those were specifically in the methodology of Pre-release information regarding hotseat, as I said context, please don't take previous posts completely out of context.
Ok, maybe i dont understand the context.
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...42#post1217442
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...63#post1217563This forum is not an official press release, preview, or review and does not qualify as an official medium for the release of game features. If you read quite a few of the posts in this thread you would understand that many players created profiles on this forum to express their discontent and therefore obviously did not read this forum prior to release. I have still not found any official outlet where 2k or Firaxis stated they were dropping the hotseat feature.
"Cal me obtuse, but if Hot-seat was included with the game, it would be mentioned on the back of the box.
I also take it that you don't know what happens when you assume do you?"
You do not understand the crux of my argument please re-read it when you have the time. Considering that the primary release medium for Civilization 5 was digital distribution through Steam, the "back of the box" as you say is relatively non-existant. Please refrain from quaint colloqualisms.
Where, when, and by what medium was this information released? If it was posted in a forum it isn't a credible source. A credible source would be a pre-release review, preview, or press release.
Thank you for doing specifically what I asked you not to do as an attack on my character. As I said before, these were specifically in relation to information available in reviews, previews, and press releases regarding hotseat and other multiplayer modes available before launch. Since this forum has been one if the few official channels of game features and updates after launch it us obviously useful for official information. Please do not take my posts out of context and please CEASE your attacks.
Seriously guys, knock it off. He's been more than lenient in not giving out bans and infractions, while I probably won't be. The man has answered your question and you can't possibly expect him to sit here all hours of the day wading through argument after argument saying exactly the same thing. This thread is no longer constructive, if it ever was, and this question has been answered on numerous threads.
If 2K Greg decides to re-open it, that's at his discretion, but for now, this is how I'm leaving it.
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