2k are you ever going to provide a way for demo users to remove securom

[Obturator]

This is a serious question and I fully expect this thread to be "closed" and "merged" into oblivion just like many before it. That wont stop me from asking though.

For those of us unfortunate enough to play the demo we apparently now have a rootkit infection on our PCs. Securom is currently impossible for us to remove fully at this stage. Do you ever plan on providing any way for the demo users to remove this software since it has no bearing on a purchased game?:mad:

[Smart Patrol]

What is it? What effect does it have?
Thank god I'm a console gamer!

[Ol'BlueEyes]

Securom does NOT use a rootkit.

[HykCraft]

Thank god I'm a console gamer, a PC gamer, and a Game Designer.

[Obturator]

Securom does NOT use a rootkit.

Securom is a rootkit by definition.

[Rebelphoenix]

Securom does NOT use a rootkit.


Say Hello To My Little Friend...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Rebelphoenix/securkit.jpg

[Calranthe]

It does no harm from what I can see yes i've been around pc's for along while and all the house pc's are pretty secure, while securom may act like a root kit in the simple way that it dares to check that your game even demo is valid it does no actual harm.

All else is scaremongering by low lifes or under aged people who shouldn't even be playing the demo let alone game script kiddies who think they know the first thing about root kits.

And yes certain scan software will mistakenly see it as a root kit, if its a root kit ooo it must allow them to evilly take over your pc, let me explain every exe in your win32 directory could be classed as a root kit, windows xp or vista can be classified as a root kit.

[Obturator]

It does no harm from what I can see yes i've been around pc's for along while and all the house pc's are pretty secure, while securom may act like a root kit in the simple way that it dares to check that your game even demo is valid it does no actual harm.

All else is scaremongering by low lifes or under aged people who shouldn't even be playing the demo let alone game script kiddies who think they know the first thing about root kits.

And yes certain scan software will mistakenly see it as a root kit, if its a root kit ooo it must allow them to evilly take over your pc, let me explain every exe in your win32 directory could be classed as a root kit, windows xp or vista can be classified as a root kit.

I work in the PC security field so I can say you are quite full of it. You dont have the first idea as to what defines a rootkit as evidenced by your win32 directory. Any application that subverts the windows security model to obtain rights beyond the administrator and that hides itself from users is far from harmless and classifies as a rootkit.

You may feel its harmless but it opens a hole that can be exploited by 2K or other less scrupulous people and guess what? You cant do anything about it because it subverts the entire windows security system.

[.h3lios]

Was going to create another thread for this but decided against it. Here goes...


Dear Ken Levine and the rest of the uber cool BioShock crew,

i am a long time PC gamer who has been waiting in anticipation for BioShock ever since it was announced. Since i reside in Bombay, India, quality PC hardware is hard to come by and is wallet rapingly expensive. However i managed to scrimp and save a few months of salaries to get a semi-decent rig up and running for this game. After all, with all the glowing previews and reviews comparing it to my two favorite titles of all time, Deus Ex and System Shock 2 definitely made it a must play.

Now add to the fact that i usually have to wait a good month or two to get the game due to a craptacular release schedule, i decided to risk a preorder with one of the many ready and willing import stores around the city. So not only do i pay more for hardware, but end up paying two to three times more the usual price for the Collectors Edition which will NEVER release here. But hey, it's for the love of the game, right?

Also the Xbox 360 version is as useful as dialogues in a porn movie (due to crazy red lights of death issues) and it costs an arm, a leg , kidneys and a few assorted body parts, i decided (or rather common sense did) not to get an Xbox 360. Besides Microsoft's customer support is quite pathetic here.

As you can see acquiring the means to game in a country like India isn't as easy as it is in the US or UK. We pay 4 to 5 times more on hardware, put up with ****ty release schedules and have to resort to grey market imports for CEs that cost more and roam freely in your markets. But we do it anyway because well, we love games.

Instead of pirating a game i rather give the developers their due, after all it's the least i can do for such an awesome work of art.

But when you stuff rootkits down our throats, after all it takes to get things in place to play this masterpiece, everything seems so futile and useless. It seems that you guys have taken the PC crowd for granted.

i agree that you need to protect your interests, but this is not the way to go about it. i'm in half a mind to cancel my preorder and take a walk down the street where i can get the game for 2$. i pay for our games, i deserve to install it without any PC crashing rootkits or limits on the number of PCs i can install it on.

Have you no confidence in your product that you'd have to resort to such idiotic measures? After close to a month of **** teasing in the form of glowing reviews and impressions, that last thing i want is my anti-virus getting menopausal on me. Your attitude reeks of insecurity. It's bad enough to get gimped widescreen support and release one working version of the game (for the xbox 360).

Contrary to popular belief, even though people in countries like mine love to pirate, there is a small, vocal , growing section of gamers who believe in giving the developers their due. Considering that we're at such a nascent stage and the fact that we'd know about such draconian piracy prevention techniques in an instant, leaves most of us, if not all, with more reason to pay $2 over $50.

So please fix this pathetic excuse for copy protection immediately, lest the neighborhood pirate makes a profit over the people who deserve to. You.

Just another gamer,

.h3lios

[MF9000]

It does no harm from what I can see yes i've been around pc's for along while and all the house pc's are pretty secure, while securom may act like a root kit in the simple way that it dares to check that your game even demo is valid it does no actual harm.

All else is scaremongering by low lifes or under aged people who shouldn't even be playing the demo let alone game script kiddies who think they know the first thing about root kits.

And yes certain scan software will mistakenly see it as a root kit, if its a root kit ooo it must allow them to evilly take over your pc, let me explain every exe in your win32 directory could be classed as a root kit, windows xp or vista can be classified as a root kit.

I am neither a low life or an under aged person. However I object to having something installed without disclosure. If it had been made clear that the invasive DRM software SecuROM was going to be installed and that there was an activation limit I would not have purchased the game. I have been around computers for quite sometime myself with my first being a 486, but that has no bearing on this issue. Nondisclosure of an invasive DRM is dishonest and underhanded. 2K got caught and now they will have to deal with the fallout.

[AlienMind]

2K: please clarify, is this version of securom exploitable or is it just a library to read specific sectors off a cd like it should be?
If it's exploitable, provide us with an uninstall tool as I never was in any way aware for it being installed (No admin-switch, no checkbox, no word prior to release).
I want what I've paid for, a software which, after you exit it, doesen't stay resident.
Advice: Say something or the public flak will increase. Enormously. (Sony CD rootkit anyone?).

[Obturator]

2K: please clarify, is this version of securom exploitable or is it just a library to read specific sectors off a cd like it should be?
If it's exploitable, provide us with an uninstall tool as I never was in any way aware for it being installed (No admin-switch, no checkbox, no word prior to release).
I want what I've paid for, a software which, after you exit it, doesen't stay resident.
Advice: Say something or the public flak will increase. Enormously. (Sony CD rootkit anyone?).

In light of your new announcement this topic is even more relevant. Since you refuse to acknowledge that its a rootkit can we at leats get some way to uninstall this unwanted software from our demos or are you going to give us the middle finger here as well?:mad:

[BES]

All this pressure and still they refuse to back down....look at this post from a Valve(steam) employee:
Link is here as well if you want to look at it... http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6628983#post6628983


GregW
Valve

GregW's Avatar

Posts: 303

Hello everyone. Thank you for your patience and I apologize if my replies caused any confusion. We have had an update from SecuROM on this issue, and the authentication system has been adjusted thanks to your feedback.

You are now allowed up to *five* simultaneous installations of Bioshock while using Steam, and the ability to reinstall the game up to five times on each PC. More information can be found in the Bioshock FAQ here.

We understand your apprehension towards DRM such as SecuROM. Please direct any further questions about SecuROM to 2k Games. There is now a SecuROM/DRM FAQ up over at 2K Games. Please give it a read through.

Enjoy the game!
Last edited by GregW : Today at 06:31 PM.


Securom removal instructions....dont know if they work or not its a post from the above link:

FrostyTheUnbald
[100 - 499 posts]

Posts: 267

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloko View Post
Since I know SecureROM is a rootkit. I used a utility from http://www.sysinternals.com/ called RootkitRevealer (Tool supported and owned by Microsoft).

After uninstalling the demo it still find SecuROM installed as a rootkit.

More users arguing (Check post #8):
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6545
If others are as angry as I am (I have lost all interest in finishing this game) about a persistent copy protection virus being distributed through steam in a game (and I assume the demo) here is description of what you must deal with when you are through with this game and want the copy protection virus to stop running hidden from view every time you boot up. There may be other ways or software to deal with this. I'll keep looking.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=545915
-------------------------
Hi all!

After some investigation I found a way how to completly remove Securom from my PC. Here is it:
1. stop UAService7 service (CTRL+ALT+DEL, find it and kill it)
2. using e.g. Autoruns (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/Autoruns.html) remove this service and delete the file \windows\system32\UAService7.exe
3. delete the folder Documents and Settings\<your_user_name>\Application Data\SecuROM
4. delete the folder Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\SecuROM; in case of any deletion problems use DelInvFile tool
(http://www.purgeie.com/delinv.htm).
5. delete securom registry keys using regedit
6. key named HKLM\SOFTWARE\SecuROM\!CAUTION! NEVER DELETE OR CHANGE ANY KEY* contains embedded nulls and cannot be removed using regedit; use e.g. RegDelNull tool (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RegDelNull.html) instead of it.

That's all. Now you can just ask why your game distributor uses techniques common for viruses and trojan horses. I state that starting from today I will never purchase anything from Sony because of their stupid rootkit practices and will hesitate to buy any legal game in the future, too.
-------------------------

[Obturator]

All this pressure and still they refuse to back down....look at this post from a Valve(steam) employee:
Link is here as well if you want to look at it... http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6628983#post6628983


GregW
Valve

GregW's Avatar

Posts: 303

Hello everyone. Thank you for your patience and I apologize if my replies caused any confusion. We have had an update from SecuROM on this issue, and the authentication system has been adjusted thanks to your feedback.

You are now allowed up to *five* simultaneous installations of Bioshock while using Steam, and the ability to reinstall the game up to five times on each PC. More information can be found in the Bioshock FAQ here.

We understand your apprehension towards DRM such as SecuROM. Please direct any further questions about SecuROM to 2k Games. There is now a SecuROM/DRM FAQ up over at 2K Games. Please give it a read through.

Enjoy the game!
Last edited by GregW : Today at 06:31 PM.


Securom removal instructions....dont know if they work or not its a post from the above link:

FrostyTheUnbald
[100 - 499 posts]

Posts: 267

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloko View Post
Since I know SecureROM is a rootkit. I used a utility from http://www.sysinternals.com/ called RootkitRevealer (Tool supported and owned by Microsoft).

After uninstalling the demo it still find SecuROM installed as a rootkit.

More users arguing (Check post #8):
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6545
If others are as angry as I am (I have lost all interest in finishing this game) about a persistent copy protection virus being distributed through steam in a game (and I assume the demo) here is description of what you must deal with when you are through with this game and want the copy protection virus to stop running hidden from view every time you boot up. There may be other ways or software to deal with this. I'll keep looking.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=545915
-------------------------
Hi all!

After some investigation I found a way how to completly remove Securom from my PC. Here is it:
1. stop UAService7 service (CTRL+ALT+DEL, find it and kill it)
2. using e.g. Autoruns (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/Autoruns.html) remove this service and delete the file \windows\system32\UAService7.exe
3. delete the folder Documents and Settings\<your_user_name>\Application Data\SecuROM
4. delete the folder Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\SecuROM; in case of any deletion problems use DelInvFile tool
(http://www.purgeie.com/delinv.htm).
5. delete securom registry keys using regedit
6. key named HKLM\SOFTWARE\SecuROM\!CAUTION! NEVER DELETE OR CHANGE ANY KEY* contains embedded nulls and cannot be removed using regedit; use e.g. RegDelNull tool (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RegDelNull.html) instead of it.

That's all. Now you can just ask why your game distributor uses techniques common for viruses and trojan horses. I state that starting from today I will never purchase anything from Sony because of their stupid rootkit practices and will hesitate to buy any legal game in the future, too.
-------------------------

These instructions do not fully remove it. I want a FULL uninstaller and 2K pretends like there is no need for it.

[2K Elizabeth]

there is no securom on the demo.

[Fehlawl]

there is no securom on the demo.

its definately in the steam version.

[MF9000]

there is no securom on the demo.

Not true. I downloaded the Steam version and found the SecurROM folder under my user apps. If SecuROM wasn't present then why is there a SecuRom folder? And before you blame another app, this folder didn't exist until I installed the demo. I have to say this is a pretty ridiculous DRM scheme you've forced onto us. I certainly hope 2K are reconsidering this.

Now I have a question: Will the revocation tool completely remove all SecuROM's registry entries? When I uninstall the game I don't want any residual on my HD. Thanks for any info.

[SliderFury]

What everyone needs to do first, is relax :D . Next, get yourself a nice fat external HDD. Transfer all files and settings, and erase your entire HDD, and reinstall windows (you DO have a genuine copy, right? ;)). Personally, I've had many problems with my PC in the past, partially because I surf too much porn, and partially because I have **** luck. As of this moment, there isn't a SINGLE SOLITARY file on my comps HDD other than programs. Every single thing I DL and/or save goes to my two external HDDs. Sure it's a pain in the ass, and time consuming to have to reinstall the operating system, all your programs, and redo your desktop/settings, but I've had to do it twice in the past few months, and each time it only takes 2-4 hours TOTAL (including windows install) and any time I want, any time I feel like my comps not running the way I want it to, I start from scratch, never having to worry about loosing anything important (I even export my bookmarks and save games).

[z3razerviper]

there is no securom on the demo.

How about you take it out of the full game as well.

[WhiteKnight]

Was going to create another thread for this but decided against it. Here goes...


Dear Ken Levine and the rest of the uber cool BioShock crew,

i am a long time PC gamer who has been waiting in anticipation for BioShock ever since it was announced. Since i reside in Bombay, India, quality PC hardware is hard to come by and is wallet rapingly expensive. However i managed to scrimp and save a few months of salaries to get a semi-decent rig up and running for this game. After all, with all the glowing previews and reviews comparing it to my two favorite titles of all time, Deus Ex and System Shock 2 definitely made it a must play.

Now add to the fact that i usually have to wait a good month or two to get the game due to a craptacular release schedule, i decided to risk a preorder with one of the many ready and willing import stores around the city. So not only do i pay more for hardware, but end up paying two to three times more the usual price for the Collectors Edition which will NEVER release here. But hey, it's for the love of the game, right?

Also the Xbox 360 version is as useful as dialogues in a porn movie (due to crazy red lights of death issues) and it costs an arm, a leg , kidneys and a few assorted body parts, i decided (or rather common sense did) not to get an Xbox 360. Besides Microsoft's customer support is quite pathetic here.

As you can see acquiring the means to game in a country like India isn't as easy as it is in the US or UK. We pay 4 to 5 times more on hardware, put up with ****ty release schedules and have to resort to grey market imports for CEs that cost more and roam freely in your markets. But we do it anyway because well, we love games.

Instead of pirating a game i rather give the developers their due, after all it's the least i can do for such an awesome work of art.

But when you stuff rootkits down our throats, after all it takes to get things in place to play this masterpiece, everything seems so futile and useless. It seems that you guys have taken the PC crowd for granted.

i agree that you need to protect your interests, but this is not the way to go about it. i'm in half a mind to cancel my preorder and take a walk down the street where i can get the game for 2$. i pay for our games, i deserve to install it without any PC crashing rootkits or limits on the number of PCs i can install it on.

Have you no confidence in your product that you'd have to resort to such idiotic measures? After close to a month of **** teasing in the form of glowing reviews and impressions, that last thing i want is my anti-virus getting menopausal on me. Your attitude reeks of insecurity. It's bad enough to get gimped widescreen support and release one working version of the game (for the xbox 360).

Contrary to popular belief, even though people in countries like mine love to pirate, there is a small, vocal , growing section of gamers who believe in giving the developers their due. Considering that we're at such a nascent stage and the fact that we'd know about such draconian piracy prevention techniques in an instant, leaves most of us, if not all, with more reason to pay $2 over $50.

So please fix this pathetic excuse for copy protection immediately, lest the neighborhood pirate makes a profit over the people who deserve to. You.

Just another gamer,

.h3liosYo buddy another india here. What up yo?.

[legion329]

Nondisclosure of an invasive DRM is dishonest and underhanded. 2K got caught and now they will have to deal with the fallout.

Just try not to confuse 2K with Irrational/Ken...

[Obturator]

there is no securom on the demo.

Ok, fine. I will believe that despite what I see both here and on the valve forums. Can the actual users who installed the game have a full installation utility to clean their PCs after they are done playing this game?

[Rebelphoenix]

there is no securom on the demo.

Liz I'm sorry to say this, but over the past few days you have proven to all of us that you just don't know whats going on. The fact that the timestamp on that picture 2 hours before I even picked up the game is proof enough that the demo did contain securom.

[toto952]

there is no securom on the demo.
So what is the name of the crapware bundled with the demo that prevented me to run the game if Process Explorer had been loaded since last reboot?

[Obturator]

So what is the name of the crapware bundled with the demo that prevented me to run the game if Process Explorer had been loaded since last reboot?

Give up on it dude. Elizabeth is in her own world where rootkits arent rootkits and the demo doesnt install securom. She is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the people at 2K being manipulated to their ends. Truth be damned.

[Dragon]

Demo definately uses securom in some form, I've had it refuse to run with a securom error when I had something loaded in memory it didn't like.

[Sian]

Demo definately uses securom in some form, I've had it refuse to run with a securom error when I had something loaded in memory it didn't like.

Yep. A friend of mine couldn't run the demo cause he has Process Explorer. SecuROM is the only program I know of with an unreasonable hatred of Process Explorer.

[AlienMind]

@2k Elizabeth: Thanks for clearing that issue in the FAQ. Let's hope the nerd-rage dies down quickly.

[AlienMind]

sorry, didn't read the whole thread.
<nerd rage>
WHAT IS GOING ON????
</nerd rage>

[Ryom]

there is no securom on the demo.

http://www.trickingq3.com/misc/photoshop/forum_posted/BioShock-demo-securom.jpg

[greylantern]

Whether it turns out it was a storm in a tea cup or a real security threat is not the issue.

It needs sorting out.

Here's a though, you know everytime we post on here the moderators (2k) can SEE our IP address in their admin panel?

YOu know they have installed something that opens up a port on your PC without you knowing or being able to detect it with typical security (this is from what I read as I admit i'm no expert).

So what if they mix those two and decide to do a little 'back door' snooping using your IP, their open port and hidden posibilities that only they know about.

I'm not saying this CAN happen or would happen but until we know it CAN'T happen (and not from some anonymous posters on a forum) then it remains a problem.

[greylantern]

Oh and of course that appears to apply to demo users to so not just 'valid customers' but people who previously played the demo and removed it. They possibly still have access, if you piss them off enough with rants what could they do (if anything?) :eek:

[BES]

As far as I can tell there is NO way currently to remove it from a Vista 32 or 64bit OS...im told securom will make a removal tool..

The WindowsXP way seems to work though that are many posts on here on how to remove it..takes abit of work, but now I will play the game,then remove it completely from my system using tools in the mentioned posts on the forum on how to remove it....ill post a few links though:

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=203200

Newer link, third post from bottom, has a few more new tools:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=169832

[Guspaz]

What I want to know is why my Steam copy of the game (and demo) have SecuROM at all! Steam is itself a copyprotection scheme. Why does 2K feel the need to have another ADDITIONAL layer of DRM on TOP of Steam?

Is Steam not good enough for 2K? It's good enough for Valve and HL2...

[AlienMind]

so excuse me maybe i'm just dumb and didn't read the demo-eula or something, but IS THERE SECUROM ON THE DEMO OR NOT?? as far as I deduct there is one on the steam-demo and none on the downloadable 1.8GB one?

[adakeb]

there is no securom on the demo.

Lies. What do you call this?

http://www.nyn.dds.nl/tmp/bio.JPG

[TonyV]

Guys, I, like many other users, have been looking forward to this game. However, this is totally unacceptable.

The 2K SecuROM FAQ (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/pc_faq.html) has at least a couple of inconsistencies that I see:

SecuROM DOES NOT USE any root kit technology in its implementation.

Yes, it does. Your statement that it doesn't in spite of the fact that it does makes you look very bad. As as been pointed out several times, it installs registry keys that cannot be deleted via normal means, and it is software that subverts the administrative privileges of a user's machine. Is 2K using it for evil? Maybe not, but that won't stop other more nefarious people from doing so. When Sony's rootkit hit the wild, they insisted that they weren't using it for evil either, but it didn't stop hackers from quickly taking advantage of the rootkit on people's machines to use it as an avenue of attack.

In other words, even if SecuROM and 2K has the best of intentions, that's not good enough. Good intentions are what the road to hell is paved with, after all.

Secondly, the FAQ says:

SecuROM does not fingerprint the hardware.

It then goes on to say:

The only data collected is the serial being used for activation, the IP address used for activation, an identifier for the software being activated, and the hash of the machine ID...

You won't have to reactivate unless you change several pieces of hardware and this will count as one of your 5 allowed computers, if reactivation is required.

I have two pretty simple questions. How exactly is the "machine ID" derived that a hash of which is sent? How is it that a machine whose hardware isn't fingerprinted would have to reactivate when several pieces of hardware are changed?

Let's not kid ourselves. The hardware is, in fact, fingerprinted, and the first statement in the FAQ that says it's not is an outright lie, just like the statement that SecuROM isn't a rootkit is. The statements are a PR effort intended for the sole purposes of misleading users who aren't computer savvy enough to actually dig in and check their veracity to accept them at face value, setting their mind at ease, and getting them to install dangerous software that opens up significant security holes on their system.

Last (that I know of), but not least, 2K Elizabeth comes here and posts a message saying, "there is no securom on the demo," when it has been shown with glaring obviousness that there is, in fact, SecuROM on the demo. Maybe she was simply mistaken, but taken in whole with the other attempts to cover up what is going on and mislead your users, I'm not much inclined to give her the benefit of a doubt now.

This is totally unacceptable. I downloaded but have not played the demo yet on my Xbox 360. I will be deleting it. I was in the process of downloading the PC demo to try out this weekend, and I have canceled it and won't be buying the game. I'm also going to do all that I can to alert my friends who are gamers of the dangerous software that is being included in 2K's game.

As far as I'm concerned, you have lost all credibility as a company over this. Congratulations, you might well have indeed stopped a few software pirates from playing the game. In the end, though, you've impacted your revenue and profits far more than any software pirates might have, I hope you're happy.

You've already lost me as a customer, and your unethical actions have already started a PR nightmare with a post on Slashdot appropriately titled BioShock Installs a Rootkit (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/24/213256) (where I happened to hear about this, thank goodness). At this point, you basically have two options to try to recover. One is to immediately drop SecuROM from the game, apologize profusely to those who might still be interested in buying the game, and distribute a removal tool for getting rid of the SecuROM rootkit. The other is to continue to deny, obfuscate, and lie about what you've done in the vain attempt to try to wade out of the mud by digging deeper into it, which will cause a huge outcry against your company and this game and kill your sales. Given your actions to date, I'm pretty sure which method you'll try, which is why I say you've already lost me as a customer. Hopefully more sane minds at your company will prevail.

[M-O-S]

Yeah, wow. Why is elizabeth and 2k lying for, then?

[SniperFox]

there is no securom on the demo.

Wow, even employee's lie about a serious situation of ignoring the laws of sale & privacy.
Can't believe a company like this is doing these things against honest paying consumers.

[pepe#]

The guys responsible for this copy-protection **** only care about the sales and marketing. You can not argue with them on a technical level.

If you like the game, buy it.

Then wait for cracks and modified images to appear in the net and play it.

No need to worry about the useless securerom rootkit-du-joure. And rejoice, you also don't have to put in the original DVD every time you want to play the game..

With companies telling me what to install and how to use the stuff I bought from them, I have absolutely no problem with that.

You can protest all you want, the government is buyed by the content mafia and will only reduce your rights if you ask them.
But in this age, code is law.


PS: I'm still not sure if I'm going to buy the game. Maybe if there are some nice bundles or so. But as a SS2-gamer, I'm sure going to play it.

[WhiteKnight]

Yeah, wow. Why is elizabeth and 2k lying for, then?

That is why there are quiet now. Iam sure they did not except such outcry like this.

[SniperFox]

That is why there are quiet now. Iam sure they did not except such outcry like this.

I agree, when it comes down to things they do wrong, every single employee thinks "fudge this, i'll pass this for another employee to reply."
Therefor most probaly nothing will happen and this game will be forgotten in a few years when everyone's activation's ran out.

[Thanatos]

Securom needs to be uninstalled when the software using it is uninstalled. I was going to hit Best Buy today and drop $50 on Bioshock, but until Irrational fixes this, it simply aint worth the hassle.

[greylantern]

I think it's beyond their techincal abilities to uninstall securom properly while merely uninstalling the game (due to all the reasons that the DRM is frowned upon in the first place).

And if it is easily possible then that's worse, because it doesn't do it.

[shiznit]

I think it's beyond their techincal abilities to uninstall securom properly while merely uninstalling the game (due to all the reasons that the DRM is frowned upon in the first place).

And if it is easily possible then that's worse, because it doesn't do it.

They cant even get the mouse to work right, how the hell they gonna get rid of rootkits lol.

[moofactory]

Therefor most probaly nothing will happen and this game will be forgotten in a few years when everyone's activation's ran out.

which brings up a VERY important issue..

What happens in 10 years if I want to play it again?
on a fresh install?

"hypetheticly speaking" further to this.. 2k games is defunked.
if the game can only be installed/played by an internet connection and or a new key.. who the hell is going to activate it for me?

GET A CLUE TAKE 2... your basically saying were paying for the privilege to use the game.. we don't own the copy we bought.

Get a new way of fighting piracy.. or you'll find your games are being hacked just to combat your security for legitimate reasons. let alone to pirate them.

and believe me.. im sure someone already has.. or will... crack and make a pirate copy. JUST TO get back at you for being such a security Nazi. Hell.. Steam's HL2 was probably the first and still the only other game to require activation online... and at least they have their **** sorted.

Whats this "number of activations" bull****. you sound like you've been taking lessons from microsloth. You restrict your customer they wont bother with your product. too much paranoia on your part and youve just lost over 1 mill in sales...at least. thats besides the stupid idea to make the Big daddy's out of something that can easily break, what are they cold cast? what ever they are theyre brittle and should have been made out of hard resin.

anywho, way too many people are turned off by your iron fist of wanting to control.

trash the "limited number of activations" all togeather.. trash the "you have significantly changed your hardware... please re activate" bull ****.

all you have to do is one simple thing.. detect when an account has logged on the net and if a dupe comes up then it gets rejected.. same as HL2 on steam..

you really hadnt thought this through did u..

screw surcom... you should have talked to valve.

[WhiteKnight]

which brings up a VERY important issue..

What happens in 10 years if I want to play it again?
on a fresh install?

"hypetheticly speaking" further to this.. 2k games is defunked.
if the game can only be installed/played by an internet connection and or a new key.. who the hell is going to activate it for me?

GET A CLUE TAKE 2... your basically saying were paying for the privilege to use the game.. we don't own the copy we bought.

Get a new way of fighting piracy.. or you'll find your games are being hacked just to combat your security for legitimate reasons. let alone to pirate them.

and believe me.. im sure someone already has.. or will... crack and make a pirate copy. JUST TO get back at you for being such a security Nazi. Hell.. Steam's HL2 was probably the first and still the only other game to require activation online... and at least they have their **** sorted.

Whats this "number of activations" bull****. you sound like you've been taking lessons from microsloth. You restrict your customer they wont bother with your product. too much paranoia on your part and youve just lost over 1 mill in sales...at least. thats besides the stupid idea to make the Big daddy's out of something that can easily break, what are they cold cast? what ever they are theyre brittle and should have been made out of hard resin.

anywho, way too many people are turned off by your iron fist of wanting to control.

trash the "limited number of activations" all togeather.. trash the "you have significantly changed your hardware... please re activate" bull ****.

all you have to do is one simple thing.. detect when an account has logged on the net and if a dupe comes up then it gets rejected.. same as HL2 on steam..

you really hadnt thought this through did u..

screw surcom... you should have talked to valve.

Bioshock is cracked few hours ago and many people are busy downloading from torrent,emule and other filesharing.

Also half life 2 got cracked long ago. Almost all steam games got cracked.

[adakeb]

which brings up a VERY important issue..

....

GET A CLUE TAKE 2... your basically saying were paying for the privilege to use the game.. we don't own the copy we bought.

....


Technically speaking this has always been the case. Read the smallprint on games that are say 10 years old. They will all say "you do not own the software, only the right to use it blabla". The difference now is that companies actually decide whether you can use the game you paid money for, whereas in the past it didnt matter if the company went out of business or whatever. Now they can basically decide they dont like your face and tell you to **** off, leaving you with nothing but an expensive coaster.

Either way i say "screw you" to that and refuse to pay for defective intrusive **** like this. 2K, come back when you fixed your defective heap of **** ok.

[FISKER_Q]

there is no securom on the demo.

http://i17.tinypic.com/6c8i5hy.jpg

[Rebelphoenix]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Rebelphoenix/poster5244131.jpg

[fusioncid]

You lost another customer!
Its unacceptable to pay for something and get "less" than the people who just illegally copy the game. :mad:

http://i13.tinypic.com/66t9bfq.jpg

[M-O-S]

i think they care more about those who pirate it, than legit costumers.......which's dumb...

[Oppopji]

i think they care more about those who pirate it, than legit costumers.......which's dumb...

I think it's more likely they were paying more attention towards hindering the pirates than they were towards ensuring their customers had an easy, hassle-free experience - and as a result screwed up by choosing SecuROM.

[2ksecuromsux]

http://www.shol.com/kronos/lames.jpg

[Obturator]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Rebelphoenix/poster5244131.jpg

Best post ever

[Obturator]

i think they care more about those who pirate it, than legit costumers.......which's dumb...

Yeah, pirates dont give them any money. Legit users do. But I guess punishing legit users makes them feel like they are fighting the problem (When they arent).

[JJJK]

The last time I installed a game with a rootkit (Splinter Cell 3 - and I know, that wasn't securom... but I had also a game with securom installed at that time) my Computer started crashing (blue screen, under XP) randomly. Even after uninstalling the game and removing the rootkit with a special tool the crashes didn't stop.
I had to make a clean reinstall of XP to get that fixed.

I played the Bioshock demo and uninstalled it - and now I found securom keys in my registry.

I need a tool that removes the remains of securom - completely.
Ever since SP3 I stopped buying any games that contain rootkits (and denying that securom is not a rootkit or that the demo uses securom is not helping) since I don't want to reinstall XP every time I uninstall a game.

I know this has been said a lot already... but I guess another take at this can't hurt, right?

By the way, I don't think this level of outrage is appropriate. Just don't buy the PC version (don't buy any version if you feel so strongly about it) tell your friends and write about it in your blog if you have one. Unless 2K hates our money, they will change their position.
After all, it's just a game... you don't need to play it.

[Lamont]

there is no securom on the demo.

Then why on earth do I have a Securom registry? (found using rootkit revealer by microsoft)

It was created exactly on the date that I installed the demo. Why is it there if there is no SECUROM IN THE DEMO?????
And I'm not talking about the Steam demo, the regular demo.

[Rebelphoenix]

Then why on earth do I have a Securom registry? (found using rootkit revealer by microsoft)

It was created exactly on the date that I installed the demo. Why is it there if there is no SECUROM IN THE DEMO?????
And I'm not talking about the Steam demo, the regular demo.

She was wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

[ReverendTed]

http://i17.tinypic.com/6c8i5hy.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Rebelphoenix/poster5244131.jpgI laughed. I laughed a lot.

But for everyone else, you need to tone down your rage a little bit.
I'm as disappointed as you are that even the DEMO apparently contains an implementation of SecuROM, and very disappointed that Elizabeth would post apparently-incorrect information about that fact.

However, she may simply be misinformed. I haven't been here long, so if she's just PR staff, then she may have to go by what she's told, and she may have gotten her information from someone who didn't know any better.

Past that, the SecuROM may have been added to the demo at a later stage of the release process who never passed the information back down the chain.

[}_50Æ{_|ñeا†]

Why put copy protection on a demo, something that is freely availble. I smeel a shady merketing ploy here...

[Sierra Oscar]

Why put copy protection on a demo, something that is freely availble. I smeel a shady merketing ploy here...

I have that question too, although I do not go for the marketing ploy route...maybe they wanted to test to see if SecuRom worked.

[58545256]

Lies. What do you call this?

http://www.nyn.dds.nl/tmp/bio.JPG

What the hell 2k! Why do you lie about something so trivial, what else could you be lying about!? I demand a refund on my purchase, I'm calling support.


This is a slap in the face to your customer base!

[Mr.Pommeroy]

Just when you get used to being paranoid while inserting a music CD in your computer and thinking it cant go much worse... wtf, rootkits for demos?!
what next JPGS and TXT files? Maybe the bad pirates try to view and steal them too, think of all the lost profits!

[M-O-S]

Seriously, that's dumb to have securom on demo....extremely dumb.

[illnova]

well that decided`s it for me... i was thinking of having a look at the demo, and maybe buying the game on steam, but reading though the k2 forums.. no way.
Bioshock as good as it might be, is a dead do-do for me. and i`ll be looking twice at any K2 games in the future.

[Scarface2U]

2k We Dont Use Root-kits?
2k We Dont Use Securom On Demo's?
2k We Dont Have Hidden Sex Files In San Andreas?

3 Strikes Your Out!!!

I Wont Be Buying Any Of Your Product's!!! I Was Looking Forward To Gt4 Now U Can Shove It

Punishing Gamer's For Being Intrested In Your Products Is Really Really Dumb An Shows Where Your Respect Lies Dosn't It

Profit Margins Over Peoples Rights

I Feel Sick That Ive Helped You Become This Greedy Profit Margin Company

I Hope Bill Gates Sue's You For Hacking Windows Security!!!

Wtg The Profit Men!!! U Really Sweated "patches" That Much?

[WhiteKnight]

Even World in Conflict demo have securom almost every game demos got craprom with it. Nowdays companies are so paranoid.

[Pandur]

Even World in Conflict demo have securom almost every game demos got craprom with it. Nowdays companies are so paranoid.

One major reason for this is that back when they released demos with no copy protection the unprotected demo executable was often used in the cracking process of the full game. Ergo everybody has been using copy protection on their demos for the last few years. At least all the companies that use copy protection on their retail versions.

[Obturator]

What the hell 2k! Why do you lie about something so trivial, what else could you be lying about!? I demand a refund on my purchase, I'm calling support.


This is a slap in the face to your customer base!

2K elizabeth. Are you ever going to respond? The issue is now getting worse for people.

[2K Elizabeth]

2K elizabeth. Are you ever going to respond? The issue is now getting worse for people.

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

[Obturator]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

So glad that you could finally admit this. Now how about that uninstaller?

[Sblade]

I´m not going to take on the Rootkit for a while....

But to answer the OP, the answer is NO. It would be a lot of easier to crack the full version of the game from an unprotected demo.

Am I right Elizabeth?

[thurauh1]

Regardless of whether or not securom is on the demo or not, in my mind it is much much worse that highly regarded antivirus program claims that bioshock.exe is infected with a virus. And that this virus can't be healed, only moved to the vault where most people probably are going to delete it.

I know enough about computers etc. to know that i (may) have done something wrong here (although I doubt it :p ) But what about the mother or father who just downloaded the demo to see what the game was about, considering getting the full game for their daughters or sons?? And who don't know anything much about computers??

To me, this seems to be a false positive. On Saturday the 25th of August, I was getting this virus message from AVG a lot. I then promptly clicked ignore.
Even after this, the problems I'm having with the demo still persist.

As for Securom being on the demo, I can see understand, since some people will do -ahem- cough - bad things... (not an encouragement, though) I just want to play the demo, so I can decide for myself whether or not to get this game. And I don't mind Securom being on the demo, as long as I know it is there. As I've said in previous threads, NWN2 also uses Securom, so does Kotor1+Kotor2+Jade Empire and bunch of other games.

@ Elisabeth:

Thank you so much for answering :) This really means a lot :) In fact, if I compare this forum to other forums, the response from the moderators, admins and moderators seem to be swifter, quicker and somewhat better than on the other forums.

Please understand that Elisabeth only is able to tell us what she's been told...

[Rebelphoenix]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

Thanks for clearing that up.

[FISKER_Q]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

Noone cares about the rootkit part, it was just extra glacing on the cake, the fundemental issues still exist, so i doubt anyone care if it is one or not.

[Obturator]

Noone cares about the rootkit part, it was just extra glacing on the cake, the fundemental issues still exist, so i doubt anyone care if it is one or not.

What I find amusing is that they never really said anything to prove why securom isnt a rootkit. Thats a lost cause though. They wont admit to it even if it is.

As for the other issues we still need some kind of response. We need to know why securom locks us out of our apps. We still need a securom uninstaller for those unlucky souls who got it with the demo. And we still need to know just how deep securom is tampering with our OSs (I imagine it will take much more prodding to get them to reveal that it is more than a registry key and system files).

[Corwin]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

The article cited does not in fact show how SecuROM is not a rootkit. It fails the duck test. It walks like one, quacks like one, leaves a mess like one. All of the fanboi peanut gallery drivel in the world will not change the basic facts here:

1) SecuROM hides itself from the OS and the user to the point where specialized software is required to even detect its presence.

2) SecuROM actively works to avoid detection and/or analysis of its activity on your system.

3) SecuROM contains software which allows processes to take Administrative rights without the user's input or knowledge. The former is what makes it a rootkit. The latter is what makes it a security violation.

I've tried to be nice here. Really. I work tech support and I've seriously tried to avoid being one of 'those customers.' I sympathize with the situation that your front line people are in. However, my sympathy does not erase the fact that you've bundled a rootkit with your software, covered up the fact that you've bundled a rootkit with your software, and then lied about bundling a rootkit with your software when you got caught doing it.

Right now I'm sitting here out fifty dollars that I gave to your company for a product that I can't use. What exactly would you suggest I do? I didn't find out about any of this until after I had already opened the game. I can't return it. If I could, I already would have. Had I known ahead of time that you had made the decision to force this garbage on us I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. You've lost my trust and you've lost me as a customer. Bioshock isn't the first 2K published game I have ever bought, and until this little fiasco it wasn't going to be the last. Now it is.

Fix this situation and I'll reconsider. However, you've burned through an enormous amount of trust with your customer base. Not only did you do something horrifically unethical, you lied about it, and we've been waiting for almost a week for just a statement that you accepted that there was a problem and you were doing something about it. If it takes longer than a week to write an actual fix, I can understand that. (It doesn't change the fact that you never should have created the problem in the first place, but baby steps here.) The fact that you've all been silent on the topic says volumes about your intentions here. (None of it good.)

[biobm]

The article cited does not in fact show how SecuROM is not a rootkit. It fails the duck test. It walks like one, quacks like one, leaves a mess like one. All of the fanboi peanut gallery drivel in the world will not change the basic facts here:

1) SecuROM hides itself from the OS and the user to the point where specialized software is required to even detect its presence.

2) SecuROM actively works to avoid detection and/or analysis of its activity on your system.

3) SecuROM contains software which allows processes to take Administrative rights without the user's input or knowledge. The former is what makes it a rootkit. The latter is what makes it a security violation.

I've tried to be nice here. Really. I work tech support and I've seriously tried to avoid being one of 'those customers.' I sympathize with the situation that your front line people are in. However, my sympathy does not erase the fact that you've bundled a rootkit with your software, covered up the fact that you've bundled a rootkit with your software, and then lied about bundling a rootkit with your software when you got caught doing it.

Right now I'm sitting here out fifty dollars that I gave to your company for a product that I can't use. What exactly would you suggest I do? I didn't find out about any of this until after I had already opened the game. I can't return it. If I could, I already would have. Had I known ahead of time that you had made the decision to force this garbage on us I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. You've lost my trust and you've lost me as a customer. Bioshock isn't the first 2K published game I have ever bought, and until this little fiasco it wasn't going to be the last. Now it is.

Fix this situation and I'll reconsider. However, you've burned through an enormous amount of trust with your customer base. Not only did you do something horrifically unethical, you lied about it, and we've been waiting for almost a week for just a statement that you accepted that there was a problem and you were doing something about it. If it takes longer than a week to write an actual fix, I can understand that. (It doesn't change the fact that you never should have created the problem in the first place, but baby steps here.) The fact that you've all been silent on the topic says volumes about your intentions here. (None of it good.)

wow well said! i agree

[Obturator]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

2K Elizabeth. Are you EVER going to respond or were you just hoping to ignore this thread entirely?

Even if secuROM isnt a rootkit ,the Demo users still have secuROM on their machines with no way to fully uninstall it!

I know 2K has no intention of ever doing anything to remedy this but at least a statement telling the customers to go **** themselves would be better than what you are doing.

So pretty please can we have an answer?

[Speebs]

What I don't understand is that if PR were so important to 2K, why did they hire a homeless woman to do the PR on this forum?

No offense to Elizabeth, but clearly she is not in a position in her life to be as active on the forums as she needs to.

[Obturator]

What I don't understand is that if PR were so important to 2K, why did they hire a homeless woman to do the PR on this forum?

No offense to Elizabeth, but clearly she is not in a position in her life to be as active on the forums as she needs to.

Yeah, its a sad day when I spend more time on a forum than its admin.

[marius26]

Say Hello To My Little Friend...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Rebelphoenix/securkit.jpg

i can confirm that microsoft rootkitrevealer does detect the following as rootkit:

HKU\*****************************\Software\SecuROM \!CAUTION! NEVER DELETE OR CHANGE ANY KEY* 21/08/2007 18:16 0 bytes Key name contains embedded nulls (*)

As you can see from the line: Software\SecuROM\ (it is SecuROM)

you can get rootkitrevealer from: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.mspx

[Obturator]

hey guys,

i'm sorry for the delay in responding. i'm currently moving and working out of airports and coffee shops and hotels.

securom is, indeed, on the demo, but it isn't activated like it is on the full game.

i'd go into more details about it, but again, i'd probably get it wrong like last time. i'm working on getting an official statement about securom on the demo for you guys, if possible.

but for now, here's an article about how securom is not a rootkit:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070826-clearing-the-air-bioshock-does-not-contain-a-rootkit.html

Are you ever going to respond to this? People are still wanting a way to remove this from the Demo you guys used to sneak this onto their machines. Will they EVER get a way to remove it?

[the_Neighbour]

i can confirm that microsoft rootkitrevealer does detect the following as rootkit:

HKU\*****************************\Software\SecuROM \!CAUTION! NEVER DELETE OR CHANGE ANY KEY* 21/08/2007 18:16 0 bytes Key name contains embedded nulls (*)

As you can see from the line: Software\SecuROM\ (it is SecuROM)

you can get rootkitrevealer from: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.mspx

SecuROM has gone way too far and worse than StarForce. StarForce has the "goodness" to at least release a driver remover tool even though they claim there's nothing wrong with their software.

[Musedmark]

Securom bad - yes i guess it is.

is all this blown out of all ****ing proportion? - hell yeh

OMG SECUROM ROOTKITSS!!!!!! RUN FOR THE HILLSSS!!!!

[Obturator]

Securom bad - yes i guess it is.

is all this blown out of all ****ing proportion? - hell yeh

OMG SECUROM ROOTKITSS!!!!!! RUN FOR THE HILLSSS!!!!

Nothing is blown out of proportion when a game company sneaks software onto users machines that decided for them what programs they can and can not run.

[z3razerviper]

Nothing is blown out of proportion when a game company sneaks software onto users machines that decided for them what programs they can and can not run.

Agreed 2k and all game companies need to be taught a lesson. Our PCs are not their property its ours. They need to respect that. Just cause I invite you into my home does not give your the right to use my floor as your toilet.