X800 users: Warning

[Twinsen]

BioShock apparently does not support x800 and earlier video cards even though they are more powerful than some later cards. There is an ATI hotfix that is supposed to cure this and is 97mb in size.

The ATI hotfix does absolutely nothing at all but waste your time. It will not fix any problems. If you have an x800 video card, you will not see a cursor in game menus and will have almost zero visuals rendered in the game. The game is completely unplayable to you right now.

If you set your mind on trying to get the game to work, get ready to have to sit through exactly 9.57 hours of 2K introduction graphics to the game, followed by an NVidia advertisement. Only one introduction video can you skip, the other 19 you have to watch. Remember that you have to sit through these videos every single time that you restart the game, because 2K has to remind you literally upwards of 50 times (that's seriously not an exaggeration) that 2K is the developer of the game that you cannot get to work.

x800 users, do not purchase this game until 2K gets their act together and makes the game support graphics cards that were new 1 year ago. If I can run Oblivion on 'very high settings' I should be able to load one pixel of the surface of the water in the beginning of the game.

In summation:
~2K makes BioShock.
~BioShock (made by 2K) does not support x800 cards as of yet.
~2K makes BioShock (by 2K).
~BioShock is produced by 2K.
~2K developed BioShock.
~2K is the reason you cannot play BioShock.
~2K.
~2K reccomends NVidia video cards for playing BioShock (by 2K).
~2K, 2K 2K. 2K, 2K. 2K: 2K, 2K, 2K, 2K, 2K, and 2K.
~Flashing 'eXXXtreme' 2K visuals produced by 2K.
~2
~K
~.

[Mr_nonick]

It was known a long, long time ago that the game wouldn't support SM2.0. It's also clearly stated in the system requirements. So how is this news to anyone?

[KamikaZe]

stop whining loser. Everyone knew this :rolleyes: Just buy a ****ing new card already

[Twinsen]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.

[mdk]

yes i'm sorry for this but x800 is kinda old i mean 2-3 years.Yes it beats the crap out of 6600 but it does not support Pixel Shader 3.that's the reason you can play Oblivion on very high because it's using Pixel Shader 2.With Pixel Shader 3 even an 8800gts card has troubles on very high , especialy in the Forest.

If you are a Ati Fan you could go with ATI x1950 PRO, beats the crap out of geforce 8600 series, but no DX 10 support.

[KamikaZe]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.

What about the system requirements idiot! You should read them. Might actually help for once

[Jazza]

I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) .

Try Splinter Cell: Double Agent ;)

[KamikaZe]

Try Splinter Cell: Double Agent ;)

just let him. he think's he is so special that he should create a thread for himself while these system requirements were known last frikin month already :rolleyes:

[RustInPieces]

This is a common problem for X800 users, ATi didn't include SM3 when Nvidia did and now you guys suffer.

Although I doubt an X800 would be able to run the game on anything higher than low anyway.

[Twinsen]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

[KamikaZe]

The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Demo anyone? THAT"S WHY WE WANTED A DEMO TO TEST IT OUT!!!! :rolleyes:


Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?


Yes :)

[Mr_nonick]

The SM3.0 is ATi's screwup, you should complain on their forums. I'm not a Nvdia fanboy btw, I have a X1950. They didn't include it in their X8xx cards while Nvidia did include it in their entire 6xxx series.
I'm sure there are still people with DX8 cards, do you see them complaining about the lack of DX8 support?

[Arioch]

Don't worry. You'll play Crysis with your X800.

[Twinsen]

Well, you guys can mock me for not jacking off over something that only BioShock insiders would have any clue about.
Thousands of people with year old cards are going to buy this game in the coming weeks that have no idea what SM even is and are going to return the game. 2K (2K, 2K!) is probably going to take action once they get complaints from retailers of massive returns. The people with the knowledge of the SM requirement on this forum will represent what, a thousandth of the buyers of this game? I doubt even that much.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about me. It's a warning to x800 users. 2K.

[FISKER_Q]

Well, you guys can mock me for not jacking off over something that only BioShock insiders would have any clue about.
Thousands of people with year old cards are going to buy this game in the coming weeks that have no idea what SM even is and are going to return the game. 2K (2K, 2K!) is probably going to take action once they get complaints from retailers of massive returns. The people with the knowledge of the SM requirement on this forum will represent what, a thousandth of the buyers of this game? I doubt even that much.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about me. It's a warning to x800 users. 2K.

Look on the other side of the gamebox retard.

[Twinsen]

This topic bumped for 2K.

[Jerry]

Year old.......

I have had an x800 since 04.

Maybe you should have researched what features your card has and any one with half a brain would have checked the specs required for Bioshock.

[Twinsen]

Yeah, it is the fault of x800 owners. Rrrg. Shame on us for buying a good card. We should base all of our buying decisions on a game that came out less than 2 hours ago.

[Twinsen]

2K reminds you to remember 2K.

[Jerry]

Yes it is your fault, you made an uninformed purchase. Now you've come on here to whine.

You should base your buying decisons on many factors, one of which is future proofing. You picked up a cheap 3 year old card and now expect it to run a spanking new game.

[harl3quin]

hi,in this growing market of GPU's u should now that x800 won't last more then 1-2 years,the graphics cards are just keeping evolving too fast and to powerful.Even thought on the majority of the gamers they have 6600GT and a procesor of 2800+,why ? nobody knows

The games are evolving with splendid engines and gameplay but in order to keep playing them is to buy hardware mainstream or high-end to be in pace at least 2 years.This is the curse of PC GAMERS.2K arent't responsible for using UNREAL ENGINE 3.0 that don't support x800 and others cards.If they would use other engine it wouldn't look and feel so good the game :(

Best wishes,harl3quin

[Twinsen]

The last 2 posts are correct, but hey this topic is a warning to x800 users. I'm willing to let 2K figure this all out as I assume this game is going to be great. But in the mean time, I'm warning x800 users that they can't play the game yet.


2K.

[Arioch]

2K arent't responsible for using UNREAL ENGINE 3.0 that don't support x800 and others cards

You're wrong (I think I've said this a lot of times during the last hours). Unreal Engine 3 SUPPORTS SM2. It's an Irrational decision to make the game only with SM3.

Regards

[Mr_nonick]

It is clearly stated in the requirements, it's clearly stated on the box, it's clearly stated on every forum imaginable, it's clearly stated in every PC review. So thank you for the warning.

[FISKER_Q]

The last 2 posts are correct, but hey this topic is a warning to x800 users. I'm willing to let 2K figure this all out as I assume this game is going to be great. But in the mean time, I'm warning x800 users that they can't play the game yet.


2K.

There's nothing to warn about as the game does not meet the minimum requirements they should not be in that problem regardless.

[Twinsen]

It is clearly stated in the requirements, it's clearly stated on the box, it's clearly stated on every forum imaginable, it's clearly stated in every PC review. So thank you for the warning.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?article_id=602522

[kojicolnair]

I used to have an x800 and even I knew that it didnt support sm3.0. I remember trying numerous games that wouldnt work because of that fact so I dont know how you can play "every game in the world". Upgraded to 8800gtx so now I can =P. And if you go with your thinking they should make the game work perfectly with my old windows 3.1 computer and not upgrade the graphics of new pc games ever because I'd have to... omg spend money and not be a cheapo!

[FISKER_Q]

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?article_id=602522

Your point being?

[Twinsen]

Well you guys all know what I'm talking about. It's not like I'm running a Pentium 2 with 32mb of RAM and whining that the game runs slow. I'm saying that the game does not run AT ALL. People have been getting mixed messages from different sources saying that 2.0 will or won't be supported. I think it's good to tell them now that it is not supported as of now.

[Twinsen]

Your point being?

Tim Sweeney: Optimization is still ongoing, so these numbers change on a daily basis. In general, our Unreal Engine 3 games run quite well on DirectX9 class hardware that NVidia and ATI released in 2006 and later, and amazingly well on the high-end cards including DirectX 10 cards. We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.

We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.


Somebody read that and thought it meant they were good to go with an x800. I'm sure somebody did... :( :( :(

[FISKER_Q]

Well you guys all know what I'm talking about. It's not like I'm running a Pentium 2 with 32mb of RAM and whining that the game runs slow. I'm saying that the game does not run AT ALL. People have been getting mixed messages from different sources saying that 2.0 will or won't be supported. I think it's good to tell them now that it is not supported as of now.

They do, in the system requirements.

[Twinsen]

They do, in the system requirements.

Yeah well screw you, I want my BioShox. MOM!

[FISKER_Q]

Tim Sweeney: Optimization is still ongoing, so these numbers change on a daily basis. In general, our Unreal Engine 3 games run quite well on DirectX9 class hardware that NVidia and ATI released in 2006 and later, and amazingly well on the high-end cards including DirectX 10 cards. We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.

We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.
We also support Shader Model 2.0 hardware with minimal visual difference.


Somebody read that and thought it meant they were good to go with an x800. I'm sure somebody did... :( :( :(

Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product

[Twinsen]

Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product
Just because they support it does not mean they will implement it in another product

You forgot to use smilies, that would completed the mocking.

[Mr_nonick]

That's about the capabilities of the UE3.0 engine. What the hell does that matter to Bioshock? The devs chose to go for SM3.0, they don't have to give SM2.0 support just because the engine can do it.
Irrational Games have stated, several times, that the game would NOT support SM2.0. So you either buy a new card and play the game, or you just don't upgrade and do not play the game. It's not like they scamming you.

[FISKER_Q]

You forgot to use smilies, that would completed the mocking.

I apoligise.

[Arioch]

Lol Lol Lol!

[Twinsen]

That's about the capabilities of the UE3.0 engine. What the hell does that matter to Bioshock? The devs chose to go for SM3.0, they don't have to give SM2.0 support just because the engine can do it.
Irrational Games have stated, several times, that the game would NOT support SM2.0. So you either buy a new card and play the game, or you just don't upgrade and do not play the game. It's not like they scamming you.

They sure aren't. But did I mention that the game doesn't work with x800 series cards?

[kojicolnair]

x800 sucks thats all there is to it. I have one so I would know(its in a power supply box atm).

[FISKER_Q]

They sure aren't. But did I mention that the game doesn't work with x800 series cards?

No i think you need to repeat a bit more, and in larger fontsizes please.

[harl3quin]

Chill out dude,what do you think that you would play the bioshock with high details ? with SM2.0 i wouldn't have the same feeling and looks.Try yo think about that dude :| before to be so angry on 2K.They had a vision about the game try to upgrade the graphics with a mainstream and you won't have problems for the next year

[Twinsen]

x800 sucks thats all there is to it. I have one so I would know(its in a power supply box atm).

$20 ebay, do it.

[Twinsen]

Chill out dude,what do you think that you would play the bioshock with high details ? with SM2.0 i wouldn't have the same feeling and looks.Try yo think about that dude :| before to be so angry on 2K.They had a vision about the game try to upgrade the graphics with a mainstream and you won't have problems for the next year

Yes. I thought that the game should run on high settings if I glued the dvd to an unpowered videocard. I'm not angry, I'm just warning commo... x800 users that they can't play the game. I'll give up in like 10 minutes anyway, I'm pretty tired.

[Arioch]

Chill out dude,what do you think that you would play the bioshock with high details ? with SM2.0 i wouldn't have the same feeling and looks.Try yo think about that dude :| before to be so angry on 2K.They had a vision about the game try to upgrade the graphics with a mainstream and you won't have problems for the next year

Not exactly. You can make spectacular SM 3 water effects and you can also make SM 2 worse water but ok for people with an SM 2 graphic card.

Like Crysis, Oblivion, Half Life 2... You have an SM 3 graphic card? Great. You'll play with HDR ON. OH, your graphic card is an SM 2 graphic card!! No problem, you'll have to put HDR OFF, but we got BLOOM here which works real well.

[Twinsen]

Not exactly. You can make spectacular SM 3 water effects and you can also make SM 2 worse water but ok for people with an SM 2 graphic card.

Like Crysis, Oblivion, Half Life 2... You have an SM 3 graphic card? Great. You'll play with HDR ON. OH, your graphic card is an SM 2 graphic card!! No problem, you'll have to put HDR OFF, but we got BLOOM here which works real well.

Exactly. And I trust that they'll do just that. I'd be ok with some chop and running on lowest possible settings. But a black screen right now is something that is really going to anger people that buy the game and find out they cannot run it at all.

There's a couple guys on the forum right now that are flipping over this.

[harl3quin]

Maybe so Arioch but SM 3.0 do not represent only HDR but extra particles and effects.Like i said a lot of people don't have a high-end GPU,but rather 2-3 years old mainstream GPU?why ? a question that bothers all of us gamers.The PC is growing way to fast and to powerful.I was just saying my point of view on the matter,i own an 7600 GT and a 2800+ and i know i won't be able to play this game even on medium :| But what the hell in a couple o months i will,worth buying a new pc for the new games that are coming out(it's like an invasion of good games but not enough time :) ) but what do you think ? all those games except UT III won't support SM 2.0

[harl3quin]

damn edit button,i just wanna say that we are lucky that supports SSE2 not like others games......you know what i'm talkink about

[Twinsen]

Personally, I had planned on upgrading when Fallout 3 is released. I planned on this game carrying me over until then because it looked so fantastic. We'll see what happens in the coming days.

The past year was pretty dry for PC games, but man are there a bunch of good ones coming out in the next year.

[98abaile]

It was known a long, long time ago that the game wouldn't support SM2.0. It's also clearly stated in the system requirements. So how is this news to anyone?

Its just some idiots feeling butthurt that they bought a crappy card when shader model 3 was already out.

[KamikaZe]

Personally,

but man are there a bunch of good ones coming out in the next year.

yes and you are not able to play them

YES!! GOOD FOR YOU :cool: EAT THAT MR BUBBLES!

[Dark_Figment]

FFS if ANYONE is to blame it's ATI for not being forward thinking enough when they manufactured those cards.

nVidia was churning out SM3.0 capable cards AT THE SAME TIME and yet over and over ATI was stating 'oh no, we don't believe there will be substantial implementation of Shader Model 3 in games for several years yet so we consider the implementation of SM3.0 in the current generation of cards to be impractical'......

So whose fault is it then? 2K for using the best games designing tech available to bring to those with the foresight to buy an SM3.0 capable card a great looking (and playing) game or ATI for not having the business smarts to realise that if there is new technology going the gaming community will be amoungst the first to snap it up!

Clearly ATI but then you seem to enjoy being a whiney little dumbass so have at it and rant about (the completely blameless) 2K some more.....jackass.

[Taldoren]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

Ok, but how many games does it take to justify the upgrade. There is more than just Bioshock out/coming out that is going to push the hardware. Next big one will be Crysis, so i guess I can look forward to you complaining there that"I don;t want to upgrade for just 1 game"...

And TBH, the required specs have been out for ages, if you think you know better, then you must live with the results of your actions.

`Tal

[evoke]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.

I think you'll find there's at least half a dozen games on the market that only use SM 3.0, seeing as it's the way forward you'll see more and more games following suit. There's no point complaining just because you're too stupid to check the req. specs.

[Arioch]

Ok, but how many games does it take to justify the upgrade. There is more than just Bioshock out/coming out that is going to push the hardware. Next big one will be Crysis, so i guess I can look forward to you complaining there that"I don;t want to upgrade for just 1 game"...

And TBH, the required specs have been out for ages, if you think you know better, then you must live with the results of your actions.

`Tal

You said Crysis... that game supports SM 2 and SM 3.

[Christoph680]

I won't think so.. in the end you both even can't play the poor crysis.. oh what poor boys you are... I got myself a GeForce 7300 SE for about 50€ (think.. 40-45$) here in Germany an it runs FINE (30-40FPS) on HIGH QUALITY... without the DX10 effects, but IT RUNS GREAT

[jay]

it still would have been nice to let all us peaple who bought x800's trying to keep up.....hell just when i could aford to get the one i got now another comes out....at least valve and others made their games play on older machines!!!
i can play source on full and have all the goody's....why would a game company make a game that would only play on the latest hardware..simply this...TO PRESHURE EVERYONE TO UPGRADE!!!
not to mention windblows...lol... games for vista????
you know they will lose sales .... but hay they don't care about sales...lol..
and for you who think thier machine's are the shnit you'll be buying more for the next game they put out...lol...
seems ashame that they would not suport anything less than a 8800xt ..

you know it would have been nice if thier install had checked my machine for 3.0 shaders like lost planet did..save me the time of trying to get it to work.

oh and for you who think i'm whining.... bite me!
not everyone has the kind of cash laying around like you do.

and in conclusion... thanks 2K for the demo!!! saved me from spending my hard earned cash on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Arioch]

I got myself a GeForce 7300 SE for about 50€ (think.. 40-45$) here in Germany an it runs FINE (30-40FPS) on HIGH QUALITY... without the DX10 effects, but IT RUNS GREAT

Wake up, stop dreaming man.

[Taldoren]

You said Crysis... that game supports SM 2 and SM 3.

Support maybe, but playable with decent graphics / effects / resolution ? Actually the last is more important, I think the best question to ask anyone, is will my rig or specific subsystem (GPU) be enough to run majority of the eye-candy at the monitors native res ?.

Look, just asking, how many titles that push the limit AND that your interested in playing is needed to justifiy an upgrade ?

`Tal

[Dark_Figment]

it still would have been nice to let all us peaple who bought x800's trying to keep up.....

And while I agree it would have been nice there comes a time when the tech just has to move on.

It's called progress and unfortunately progress can be a painful, and in this case, expensive process.

I can sympathise because I just upgraded away from an X850 XT but the simple fact is Bioshock is FAR from the only game that now doesn't support SM2.0. Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Spiderman 3, and Rainbow 6: Vegas to name but a few of the titles available.

I've said it a couple of times already but it's really ATI's fault you’re in this situation - SM3.0 support was available to them when they were manufacturing the X8xx range of cards but they CHOSE not to include it because they didn't think it would be an issue in the near future.

[Taldoren]

it still would have been nice to let all us peaple who bought x800's trying to keep up.....hell just when i could aford to get the one i got now another comes out....at least valve and others made their games play on older machines!!!
i can play source on full and have all the goody's....why would a game company make a game that would only play on the latest hardware..simply this...TO PRESHURE EVERYONE TO UPGRADE!!!
not to mention windblows...lol... games for vista????
you know they will lose sales .... but hay they don't care about sales...lol..
and for you who think thier machine's are the shnit you'll be buying more for the next game they put out...lol...
seems ashame that they would not suport anything less than a 8800xt ..

you know it would have been nice if thier install had checked my machine for 3.0 shaders like lost planet did..save me the time of trying to get it to work.

oh and for you who think i'm whining.... bite me!
not everyone has the kind of cash laying around like you do.

and in conclusion... thanks 2K for the demo!!! saved me from spending my hard earned cash on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!

And do you not think, that for 1 second, that any gaming studio / company will have access to many surveys regarding existing machine configurations out there. And do you not think that for 1 second, that there will be a few different cost / benifit reports repduced to determine the potentional loss of sales by limiting hardware.

If you have done any high level managment cost / benifit analysis you will know that there is a point where a decision to limit or to cut off past support (in this case hardware) is worth losing some customers.

And simple simple truth of the matter is this, if you into PC gameing, you need to move with the times, you will need to upgrade components or complete systems quicker than you can deduct them ::eek: .

I try for a new GPU once a year and new system on the second year.

While it is a PITA, it means that thoses that do / can keep on the edge, get to enjoy Next Gen titles as they are released.

`Tal

[jay]

glad you have the cash to dish out every year.. more power to ya!!!
keep feeding the monster...it won't eat you..lol..

[TheBlueChanell]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the x800 series debuted in early 2004, now we're sitting here in late 2007, and you're complaining that you cannot play a brand new game? ATi has had the x850/x1800/x1900/x1950 and now the 2900 since than. If you want to play the latest games, you have to have the latest hardware that's the beauty of pc gaming, that's what makes it cutting edge, it's what a hardware "enthusiast" strives for. If it's a big deal to you, go play it on your xbox. I appreciate you letting other know that the game has issues with the x800 series, but It seems to me that you're being less informative by the minute, in fact you're just downright complaining. Have fun with your new video card purchase and/or xbox purchase.

[Taldoren]

glad you have the cash to dish out every year.. more power to ya!!!
keep feeding the monster...it won't eat you..lol..

Point being, its an informed decision by game studios based upon the expect return vs the development + many other costs.

So, in this case, it would be expected that there will be enough sales / consumers with the needed hardware to run Bioshock and still make a profit.

And if they can make that decision, and indeed becomes fact, then it kinda makes any argument that there are more gamers with older tech out there than semi-new tech completly fasle.

Ant the end of the day thou, what do you want ? a Freeze on new Tech ? No more titles pushing the current cutting edge tech to the limit for say .. oh 3-5 years ? There is already that option, consoles.

Lets face it,we as a race kinda have this habbit of evolving in every part of our lives.

`Tal

[Rampage]

So does this mean the game wont run on my x800? I'm not sure I'm getting the message here.

[Jerry]

No it will not.

[jay]

lol...your right on all count's.. so i supose that 500 is a good price for a card... or a console.....next year it's a good price at 600....and the next and the next....till only the rich such as your self can aford to keep up.
cutting edge...lol...is only good for six months at best from what i've seen.

3.0 shaders...lol...then it'll be 4.0 and so on and so on....

but as you don't understand there is alot of peaple that don't have the cash flow you and seems like everybody else here does have.

how hard would it have been to suport 2.0????

geese the demo was 2gigs .

[KamikaZe]

geese the demo was 2gigs .

what in gods name has size to do with shader support :rolleyes:

[jay]

nothing .
but they could have stuck extra suport in there.

[Dark_Figment]

It's not the size that counts....







.....it's how you render it!!! :D Sorry, couldn't help myself! :p

[Taldoren]

lol...your right on all count's.. so i supose that 500 is a good price for a card... or a console.....next year it's a good price at 600....and the next and the next....till only the rich such as your self can aford to keep up.
cutting edge...lol...is only good for six months at best from what i've seen.

3.0 shaders...lol...then it'll be 4.0 and so on and so on....

but as you don't understand there is alot of peaple that don't have the cash flow you and seems like everybody else here does have.

how hard would it have been to suport 2.0????

geese the demo was 2gigs .


What I am saying, is that MAJORTY of the intended consumers for specific titles / studios DO have the MEANS to purchase the needed hardware.

^^ is based upon previous posts.

So yes, your upset because your RL situation, does not provide you with the means to keep up. As to why that is I have noidea, nor will I hazzard to guess. But unless your set for life from family etc, we all have to work to play. And gaming is a recreaction activity (for the most part, pro gamers aside hehe), so it would just be safe to assume, that at this point in your life, with you current situation, you are unable to keep up with the cost of gaming and minimun gaming requirments. This has nothing to do however with 2K, irrionation, ATi, Nvidia nor even the giant that is MS. It is purely based upon your RL situation.

And, tbh I have been there before and yes it sucks... but with adversity....etc, but when it all improves, and you can afford your hobbies, you can think back and smile. Its what I do ;)

`Tal

[jay]

screw it you peaple just don't know how hard it is to buy all the crap to keep up..

it don't work on anything less than a 8800nividia or 2900ati

[KamikaZe]

screw it you peaple just don't know how hard it is to buy all the crap to keep up..

it don't work on anything less than a 8800nividia or 2900ati

yes it does it even works on a Geforce 6600 which is slower then an Ati x800 yet more advanced :)

[Dark_Figment]

I fully appreciate it can be VERY hard for some to keep up. It does suck but it's also one of the main drawbacks of having a hardware interchangable system like the PC - and of course big companies will try and push their new and improved tech on you but wait, it comes at a cost!

It sucks big time but at the same time the average gamer doesn't know just how much it can cost developers to make games backwards compatible. I wouldn't even like to guess at a number cause I'll probably be far FAR under what it would really cost.

[Taldoren]

screw it you peaple just don't know how hard it is to buy all the crap to keep up..

it don't work on anything less than a 8800nividia or 2900ati

7800 GTX here on primary game machine and runs fine @ 1680 x 1050... waiting for next Gen DX 10 cards :D .

but the x800 is not like just 1 year old... so how in a period of say 3+ years, have you not identified that you will need to upgrade soon, and put even a small % of your income aside for it? .

`Tal

[Freddo]

screw it you peaple just don't know how hard it is to buy all the crap to keep up..

it don't work on anything less than a 8800nividia or 2900ati
Works fine on my Radeon X1600 Pro which costs about $60 USD. Granted, I do play in 1024x768. Before this card I had a Geforce 3 which lasted for over 4 years. I suspect I will use this one for about 4 years too.

[Taldoren]

I fully appreciate it can be VERY hard for some to keep up. It does suck but it's also one of the main drawbacks of having a hardware interchangable system like the PC - and of course big companies will try and push their new and improved tech on you but wait, it comes at a cost!

It sucks big time but at the same time the average gamer doesn't know just how much it can cost developers to make games backwards compatible. I wouldn't even like to guess at a number cause I'll probably be far FAR under what it would really cost.

And based upon thoses comments, can you imange how many various reports are being performed now, to try and workout the brake even numbers for DX 10 only games. The Studios are in that nasty spo, where its going to cost more to make a DX 9 & 10 title (if starting now) than DX 10 only. And then using an esitmated shipping date (2+years time) try and calculate the number of DX 10 consumers vs potention lack of sales by thoses with DX 9 hardware.

Will be interesting to see just how long it will be untill DX 10 only titles are announced as they begin Development.

`Tal

[BobMarley]

**** you 2k you mother ****ers. i hope you go bankrupt for being ****en jackasses with your piece of **** shader model 3.0

****ers im not forking out more money to buy another graphics card to replace a less than 1 year old card, just to play your game. **** that ****

[KamikaZe]

**** you 2k you mother ****ers. i hope you go bankrupt for being ****en jackasses with your piece of **** shader model 3.0

****ers im not forking out more money to buy another graphics card to replace a less than 1 year old card, just to play your game. **** that ****

Aw poor kid hasn't got a rich daddy :D

[Taldoren]

**** you 2k you mother ****ers. i hope you go bankrupt for being ****en jackasses with your piece of **** shader model 3.0

****ers im not forking out more money to buy another graphics card to replace a less than 1 year old card, just to play your game. **** that ****

hehe, classic.

[Gotcha]

**** you 2k you mother ****ers. i hope you go bankrupt for being ****en jackasses with your piece of **** shader model 3.0

****ers im not forking out more money to buy another graphics card to replace a less than 1 year old card, just to play your game. **** that ****

Wow just wow

[Stardog]

Its just some idiots feeling butthurt that they bought a crappy card when shader model 3 was already out.
I don't get why you're all insulting people that don't have SM3 cards. SM2-only cards make up 50%'ish of the pc gamer userbase. They won't be able to play the game. I won't be able to play the game and I couldn't care less.

At the end of the day, these people will not be buying the game and it'll only hurt Irrational at the end of the day.

As it stands, I'll have to downgrade paying £95 ($190'ish) for a X1600 that runs worse than an X800 to play Bioshock. It ain't going to happen.

[beaver]

I'm not pissed at any company or anything in particular I'm just bummed. I know the card is 3 years old or whatever, but when I bought it, it was pretty close to top of the line. I think I paid $300-$400 for it. Now I knew it wasn't going to be good forever but to totally become practically unsupported overnight sucks.

And to those who are saying just upgrade your card for $50 or whatever you have to be serious. I don't think this card even came in a PCI-E version which means everyone who owns it is running an AGP motherboard. Meaning they would need to get a new motherboard, CPU, RAM, Vid Card, and most likely power supply. For parts that (hopefully) won't be obsolete in a year this would run about $700 (trust me I was thinking about upgrading before I saw what my cart total was at newegg.

There are still computers put out today that use crappy onboard or just inept video, so arguing that most people will be able to play this just isn't true. In fact I can only think of one of my friends that will be able to play it at its recommended settings and that's only because he is nuts and spends all his cash on his PC and consoles.

Like I said, I don't blame anyone in particular, it's just disappointing. I've never had a piece of computer hardware go from sufficient to useless overnight.

[legendale]

What some of you people don't seem to realize, it's more then just going out and buying a new card. Most of us 800 series card owners have AGP ports and not PCI-E ports. If it was only a matter of going out and buying a 8800 GT card that would be fine, but it's not. We have 2 (rather ****ty) choices - go buy a higher end AGP card that will not have DX10 support - or do the whole motherboard swap-out with new processor, memory and then the 8800 card - and now we are really talking a major expense.

My point is, this is a bigger deal to us then you flamming, smug, self-imoportant, pompus *******s are making it out to be.

[Sloblocks]

You guys at 2K Games better be prepared for a ****-load of complaints about this. I understand that progress is progress and moving up to SM3 is a solid step in the right direction, but what you stated on the box is by no means clear enough.
"X1300 or better"... well an X800 is a way better card than the X1300.
DX9.0c compliant... not specific enough... I've had 9.0c on my machine for a while and it's been pretty damn compliant up to now.

You have to realize that 95% of people buying this game aren't PC-overclocking-extreme-video-card-weenies like most of the people replying to this post. Do you really think your average Joe in the street who bought a recent PC and is buying the game for his kid is likely to know that his video card is fully DX9.0c compliant?!? I think not.

Hope your re-packaging guys are on acid because you're going to see a whole bunch of returns.

So... *****ing session over... what's the best value DX10 card for around 250-300 bucks these days? 8800GTS??

[quakemazer]

Well, Bioshock kind of came out of left field what with going gold, and demo, and launch happening so quickly. I wasn't following it too closely and thought it would be out sometime after Crysis. Wrong.

When I started seeing the stellar reviews for Bioshock I knew I would have to upgrade my x850xt platinum edition (pci-e, hey I only paid $100) to be a part of this wonderful game. But after looking over my upgrade options, and thinking back to my upgrade experience for Doom3/HL2... I've decided to wait for the next gen DX10 cards to even think about upgrading. When I do upgrade, I'll be looking for a heavily discounted 8800GTX or 2900XT.

The downside is that I'll have to wait to play Bioshock and whatever goodies come out until I'm seeing this generations High End cards selling sub $250. Hell, when the 8800gts 320mb drops to near $200 I may just snatch one of those up due to impatience -that can't be too far off unless no new cards hit before Crysis-.

The suckiest part about the state of things now is ATI's total failure to up the performance ante and drive prices down with their 2xxx series. So it's a waiting game.

Besides, if you can hold off to upgrade, the game will be cheaper, patched up, and your hardware faster in relation to this game. It's all relative dudes.

[ScottJG]

Guys, I am working on a fix to this. Check out my thread here

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5689

Or just look down the page a little :D

[quakemazer]

Scott has it working on SM2.0 cards check his thread immediately.

[Shockme]

Thanks for the warning. I have the X800xt pro and was really looking forward to this. Oh well. I will check back for a fix often.

And to all the kiddies who bashed the OP. **** you.

[CrushU]

I'm similar to quakemazer. (And I agree with alot of people that the OP is a jerk. :p Nice that he's warning, but honestly, stop ranting. One rant is enough.)

I bought my computer, knowing that I'd have to upgrade. I bought it around the time of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, and it ran that at high quality, no bumps at all. What is my PC, you ask? Dual-core AMD 3200 X2, 2GB DDR2 800 RAM, and a x850 Radeon. PCI-Express, thankfully. The ONLY thing I didn't go for was a second PCI-E port, because 2 cards running together gives 120% of 1 card, so it's better to just spring for a better card.

Now, I'm very technically minded, and I knew that DDR2 would need to run double the clockspeed of my old DDR400 memory to be worth it. I also found very good CAS latency RAM that worked great. When I looked at video cards, I had previously had an nVidia Gf4800 Ti, and was happy, but looking at comparably priced nVidia and ATI cards, ATI had more power. And I mean that. The x850 is a very powerful card for its price, while it may not have alot of texture memory. Texture memory, however, is not important. I had not noticed the lack of Pixel Shader 3.0 support, and had never had a problem with it... Until now.

I said all that to say this: I KNEW I got a somewhat cheap card (2005) and that I'd need to replace it to become Seriously Badass, so it isn't surprising to me that newer games won't run great. I'm not saying they should. So I will buy a new card, simply because I had planned on it, and prepared for it. I hadn't expected to buy one *quite yet*, however.

I followed Bioshock very closely. I followed it back when most people didn't know it existed, and in fact it existed as a mere whisper of a rumor to a sequel to System Shock 2. System Shock 2 is one of my favorite games for the very rich and exceedingly creepy atmosphere that was finely-crafted and imminently noticeable throughout the game. The depth behind that game was overwhelming, and few games match it for me. So I followed Bioshock closely, with every intention of buying it the day it came out. I buy games very rarely because there is alot of quality freeware out there that I can spend endless time with. It takes something very special to capture my hard-earned money from my cheapskate fist. This game qualified.

I had NEVER known about the lack of support for my card. I'm not exactly pissed, or outraged, I understand that the market moves on.

I *am*, however, a programmer. Not a very talented or extensive one, having dabbled with DirectX briefly before I lost the time to dedicate to learning it. But I *know* what is necessary for backwards compatibility. Depending on how extensive the differences between 2.0 and 3.0 are, that's how difficult and extensive the workarounds must be done. As someone earlier said, at least half the market now uses 2.0. The difference between All the Market and Half the Market is not worth 'higher quality water effects'. There should have been an option to use simpler pixel shaders. That there isn't breaks my heart that I can't play this game yet, that I have to wait longer. It doesn't kill my thoughts for 2K as a good company, after all, they got lots of positive points for being willing to pick Bioshock up in the first place, but it does make me cry inside.

Done ranting now, I just want to point out a small thing... Anyone notice the center logo of companies on the back? The Havok symbol? I know that symbol. I've played other games that used them to make their physics engine, and they totally Own. ... It makes me want to play the game more. :P Oh well. This is my first and probably last post. Bye.

[TurdFergasun]

I think what the op has failed to realize, and that most of the sheep replying fully understand is: that 2K has produced a game here, and if you could just comprehend the fact that 2k was, and is involved in this process, it's a rational course of action to get your mommy to buy you a new peripheral every time you everytime the back of a box commands you to do so. seriously tho with 2k games involved i would be hard pressed not to sell my left nut to chinese organ dealers just to get a sm 3.0 card because some random un-nameable game company produces a game based on bottom dollar economics. It's truly laughable to all the sheep browsing/replying in this thread about what the op should have done, and what superbest lucky EXTREME hardware he should have, when for some unforseen reason they are also in the bioshock technical support forum. along with 800+ other damned souls both with nvidia/ati sm 2.0/3.0 cards viewing the bioshock troubleshooting forum. thinkin alot more money was placed in the marketing budget of this game than programming. If i could only remember what company produced this game I would lodge a serious complaint.

[Shockme]

Well I think it has to have something to do with them having their heads up Microsofts ass and trying to drive the market. I think they will fail with the majority of gamers on the PC platform because they are targeting, at a majority, an older bunch of gamers. Before the elder bashing starts with the kiddies I just want to say that 1 game will not force the majority of gamers to run out and get that sweet new overpriced card just to play it.

[Twinsen]

They'll probably get quite a few people to step up and upgrade their cards. But a much larger amount of people are just going to return the game to their local WalMart and pick up a copy of Gaylo 3 when it comes out next month.

[zulfy26]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.


Deep research is reading the box?

[3elevenX]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

[sugaki]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

It's amazing how stupid these posters are. For one, x1800xt is at least $170--not the money I want to spend for a mediocre video card. Has the same pixel pipelines and only 2 more vertex pipelines than my X850. An overclocked X850 easily trumps the supposed mid-range X1600. If you were any type of "computer expert" as you claim to be you'd know that.

Second, the box never tells the whole story. There are countless "DirectX 9.0C required" games that run just fine on my SM2.0 cards (of course, if you're a 2K lackey that has mommy buy everything for you you probably won't understand that). Call of Duty 2, STALKER, Company of Heroes, heck even Sims 2 expansions lists DX9.0c on the box, and they all worked without any problems.

Nor do I care to invest in a quad core CPU until games are optimized for them, and for the newer-gen DX10 video cards. Really, Bioshock could've ran on SM2.0 cards easily. They were just too lazy to do so. Games now don't really take advantage of unified GPU architecture (GeForce 8800 series), nor does Bioshock NEED SM3.0 to reduce the computational overhead for API. And I bet what I just said flew over 90% of the vapid trolls on this thread.

[Twinsen]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

The box does not say that you need 3.0 SM. It says you need an x1300 or better. I have a better card than an x1300, and that's an easy call to make. It doesn't say x1300 or newer, and it didn't make any reference to the shaders. It also says I need a Pentium proc, but like all system requirements, they're just random bull**** that they put on the box so you have some idea of what you need to run the game.

[KelsieKatt]

I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

Sorry but BioShock isn't the only game thats shader model 3.0 exclusive, some games are starting to require it and have for some time, such as Splinter Cell and Rainbow Six off the top of my head.

[SaintCinderella]

I have 2 choices now. Refund the game or buy the card.

Since I will be selling my computer next year, I think it would be easier for me to refund the game.

What a pity. This is supposed to be a great game.

[KamikaZe]

I have 2 choices now. Refund the game or buy the card.

Since I will be selling my computer next year, I think it would be easier for me to refund the game.

What a pity. This is supposed to be a great game.

Since when can you refund games nowadays? I sure as heck can't because of the copying and stuff :confused:

[KelsieKatt]

Also I think it's more a matter of the developers are tired of having to support SM 2.0 because people are too lazy to upgrade and would really like to rid the world of it considering that its been around since 2002 (if I remember correctly.) Sure the X800 series isn't too old but think about this, if they add shader model 2.0 support then guess what, they have to make it work on computers dating back to 2002. (And don't say they wouldn't because thats utter bull, I've seen my fair share of tons of *****ing about FX 5200's etc not being fast enough for something that supports X800's. Take Oblivion for example.)

[SaintCinderella]

Since when can you refund games nowadays? I sure as heck can't because of the copying and stuff :confused:

I bring it back to the shop.....

I almost cried when I can't run this game. I been living on instant noodles and bread for a month just to save up for this, and when I bought it, it doesn't run because of SM3!

Now the thought of doing it again for a SM3 card really put me off. I guess if I can't refund it, I will just have to sell it online.

It was such a STUPID thing to do to save up for this.

[KamikaZe]

I bring it back to the shop.....


It was such a STUPID thing to do to save up for this.

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

[KelsieKatt]

Note that in my earlier post I do feel a little sorry for the X800 Series people, but that's ATI's fault for not thinking about this in the first place... Not like they saved people any money for not including 3.0 either.

Also unfortunately stores won't take back PC games because a lot of people think its cool to pirate a game and sell it as a so-called "Used" copy. The only thing you can do is trade it in for the same game if there is something wrong with it.. otherwise you're out of luck :( sorry...

[KelsieKatt]

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

Lol you have a point there ^_^

[Jerry]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.

[KelsieKatt]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.

:) finally a reasonable response

[Stardog]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.
At the end of the day Bioshock is a 360 game. They're not too bothered about the PC market. Clearly there's more sales on consoles.

I've known that Bioshock required SM3 for a while, but the fact remains that 2K will lose sales because a lot of pc users can't play this game. It really is that simple.

I don't think Bioshock is a massively commercial game that will appeal to casual gamers. You only have to look at gaming threads on sports forums to see what type of games they're looking forward to - PES7, Saints Row 2, GTA IV, MGS4 etc.

You just better hope it sells loads or say hello to an expansion pack rather than a sequel.

[Jerry]

I'm on the 360 anyway, which will sell millions, the console has been crying out for a decent story driven FPS.

I obviously made a mistake in my post I said 2.0 when I meant 3.0. You guys understood me anyway.

[MeanDinosaur]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

First, It's your fault you bought that POS card. Nvidia already had cards out that supported SM 3.0, ATI even knew they messed up not supporting it and did on their later cards. The main thing said about that card when it came out was "It will perform like Nvidia's, but you need to understand you won't have SM 3.0". That's two generations before the current cards. That's a lifetime in graphics technology. It was made abundantly clear to people buying that crap card at the time that they would have to upgrade sooner than everyone else.

Second, don't come in here trying to defend your stupid decision from the past. You didn't know what you were doing when you bought your video card. It's your fault.

The world isn't like your parents. It isn't going to hold your hand and tell you everything will be ok because you screwed up. Deal with your own crap. Next time don't blow your money on ****.

[sugaki]

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Because the demo came out one day before release, and I tried out the 360 demo a week before.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

Not everyone lives on the forums and reads about whatever sliver of info they can find. People assume that a high-end video card from the previous generation (which are almost always faster than current-end mid-range cards) will run games fine. The X850XT may be old, but it's by no means outdated. People who think so probably buy their video cards from Bestbuy, look at higher numbers (oo 500MHZ clockspeed! 512MB RAM!) and assume it's better. Hence the laughable suggestion of "upgrading" to a slower, inferior X1600 from this board. The X850 is roughly equivalent to an Nvidia 7800 GS. Newer doesn't mean better.

SM3.0 doesn't really look any better, it just takes advantage of less computational overhead from particle effects and other frivolties. It's not that hard for a game to run on SM2.0, and it doesn't hurt the game in doing so, either. Devs were just lazy, or in a rush. Lack of widescreen support (are we back to 1998?) is evidence of this.

[Stardog]

sugaki said it.

Note this screen:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6960/untitled1copygu3.jpg

You're telling me SM3 is so much of a step forward that they dump SM2 users who can run this screenshot about as smoothly as Doom 3?

[Chrushev]

you do realize that Nvidia had pixel shader 3 in their cards for the last 4 years right? (starting with GF6 gen)...

I think its a fair bet for them to expect that anyone wanting to play bioshock has a system that is newer than 4 years.

PS - i think its funny how everyone was bashing Nvidia at the time, and all the ATI fanboys were screaming how X800 > 6800 and that X800 can just emulate the PS3.0

Im in no way an Nvidia fanboy... i have both ATI and Nvidia cards in my PCs.

[Nil Einne]

I was planning to post here but I ended up summarising my thoughts in a FAQ. Feel free to perview them here. http://www.geocities.com/nil_einne/BioShock_FAQ.html

In summary though while I agree some of the X800 etc people here may be going a little far, I also completely agree that lack of SM2.0 support is bull****. And I do in fact have a SM3.0 card, 6600GT...

[pilferk]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

No, but I do assume (I know...you know what they say about assumptions) everybody can read...as in...the side/back of the box (or, in steam's case, the purchase page).

[pilferk]

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?article_id=602522

Um....that's great for Unreal3...and the U3 engine.

'Course, I don't see a single comment about Bioshock, or from one of the Bioshock devs.....

[aznpxdd]

But the point is that 2K DID NOT list SM3.0 as one of the requirements on the box. It was extremely vague - a Direct 9.0c compatible card.

Plus if you want to compare raw power, a X850XT PE is more than capable for running BioShock. It still beats the 7600GT and is very close to the 8600GT when it comes to raw speed.

[pilferk]

Yeah, it is the fault of x800 owners. Rrrg. Shame on us for buying a good card. We should base all of our buying decisions on a game that came out less than 2 hours ago.

No, you should base your buying decisions (of the game that was out 2 hours ago) on what's clearly printed on the side of the box CONTAINING what you're purchasing. If you can't be bothered to read the minimum specs, clearly printed on the box...why should anyone else (2k included) care?

[bwl2]

Yep, my x850xt PE has been screwed over. I will not take this lying down however.

[robottik]

Let 2k know we want them to support SM 2.0

Vote here:http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=125696&posted=1#post125696 (Linky)

[pilferk]

But the point is that 2K DID NOT list SM3.0 as one of the requirements on the box. It was extremely vague - a Direct 9.0c compatible card.

Plus if you want to compare raw power, a X850XT PE is more than capable for running BioShock. It still beats the 7600GT and is very close to the 8600GT when it comes to raw speed.

X1300 or better (and yes, I know you're all going to argue the x800 and x850 is "better" than the x1300....but the fact is, traditionally in specs "better" has meant "newer").

Your "number" is lower than an x1300. It's a pretty easy comparison to make for the "average joe". People here are overthinking it, simply because they're ticked off they can't run the game.

It's a game. It's clearly stated what the specs are. The devs have been completely up front about the specs. They've practically shouted them from the mountain tops. So, what's the issue again?

Oh yeah...people are pissed so want to rant. Let me sum this up. You have 2 (productive) choices: Upgrade or don't play. *****ing gets you exactly zero.

Eventually, SM 3.0 is going to be the baseline. This happens literally EVERY generation of hardware...something always has to go "first". And whatever it is....from Wizardry requiring a CGA graphics card, to Ultima VII requiring a 386...all the way to Bioshock requiring a SM 3.0 vid card...that product gets grief from the gamer community. Same story, different day.

[sugaki]

X1300 or better (and yes, I know you're all going to argue the x800 and x850 is "better" than the x1300....but the fact is, traditionally in specs "better" has meant "newer").

You might as well admit you're an ignorant moron. That doesn't need to be in quotes.

Does you Circuit-City shopping rear-end even know what the difference between SM2.0 and SM3.0 is? Or how an X850XT is FASTER than a newer 7800GS? OOoo, but SM3.0! 3 is a number higher than 2, so it must be better! X1300 has a number higher than X850, so it must be better! I'm a peon who only looks at PR marketing blurbs, and buys according to their whims! Mommy buys me things so I don't have to use a brain!

The only visual difference between 2.0 and 3.0 is displacement mapping, and that's something you can't even notice until you're up close to something aggressively parallax-mapped. Heck, when marketing SM3.0 Nvidia had to use SM1.1 for comparison shots, since the visual difference between 2.0 and 3.0 was so negligible.

[aznpxdd]

Seriously, the difference of image quality between SM2 and SM3 are minimal at best.

For the uneducated, visit this article.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjA5

The ONLY picture where the difference is even noticeable is when displacement mapping is used heavily.

[swaaye]

Oh there's way more to it than that. SM2 has vastly tighter restrictions on shader program complexity than SM3. That means its impossible to do some SM3 effects in SM2. Go read up on the specification if you really want to understand it.

[KamikaZe]

Oh there's way more to it than that. SM2 has vastly tighter restrictions on shader program complexity than SM3. That means its impossible to do some SM3 effects in SM2. Go read up on the specification if you really want to understand it.
We shouldn't actually bother as these people are so ignorant.... its unbelievable. They have outdated harware and just can't accept it. Its ridiculous. :rolleyes:

[aznpxdd]

We shouldn't actually bother as these people are so ignorant.... its unbelievable. They have outdated harware and just can't accept it. Its ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Looking at your post history, its unbelievable how much you love to troll threads dealing with SM2 & 3.

[KamikaZe]

Looking at your post history, its unbelievable how much you love to troll threads dealing with SM2 & 3.

Let me quote myself once more
These treads are useless and therefore annoying to the people having issues not relating to using hardware which doesn't meet the minimum system requirements. And this is not the first thread about it and probably won't be the last one either.

People having REAL problems with securerom for example or REAL bugs causing the game to exit that's what I think this section is meant for. Not meant for people who feel left out because their hardware is not supported and then trying it to get it to run anyway with awesome effects like green and orange textures.

[Twinsen]

KamikaZe, seriously... nothing you say makes any sense. Nothing you say is true, and you make horrible conclusions based on your ignorance and the bull**** that you make up in each post. Stop repeating things that aren't true.

You sound like a perfect example of a sheep born of an ignorant european socialist environment.

[KamikaZe]

You sound like a perfect example of a sheep born of an ignorant european socialist environment.

You see that I am from the Netherlands don't you? Well if you even had kept up with the news pas few years (which you might lack the brains for I understand) you would have known that even your namecalling is very sad

[Twinsen]

Wah wah wah you have a strong currency because of self important economic strategies centered around keeping your currency strong as it is the only thing you have to offer the world. Shuuuut uuuuup.

[KamikaZe]

Wah wah wah you have a strong currency because of self important economic strategies centered around keeping your currency strong as it is the only thing you have to offer the world. Shuuuut uuuuup.

You are getting off topic. You are a genius when it comes to moving away from the subject at hand. :D

[Twinsen]

You are getting off topic. You are a genius when it comes to moving away from the subject at hand. :D

Just following your lead, ****o.

[sluzi26]

Wah wah wah you have a strong currency because of self important economic strategies centered around keeping your currency strong as it is the only thing you have to offer the world. Shuuuut uuuuup.

I lol'd. Apparently 10 characters....blahblah

[KamikaZe]

Just following your lead, ****o.

If you did (****o it was right?) You'd buy a decent card and just played the game :eek:

[Twinsen]

If you did (****o it was right?) You'd buy a decent card and just played the game :eek:

First of all, English. Second, my card is great. Third, I have nothing to list third. Fourth, period. Fifth, *clicks reply*.

[pilferk]

You might as well admit you're an ignorant moron. That doesn't need to be in quotes.

Does you Circuit-City shopping rear-end even know what the difference between SM2.0 and SM3.0 is? Or how an X850XT is FASTER than a newer 7800GS? OOoo, but SM3.0! 3 is a number higher than 2, so it must be better! X1300 has a number higher than X850, so it must be better! I'm a peon who only looks at PR marketing blurbs, and buys according to their whims! Mommy buys me things so I don't have to use a brain!

The only visual difference between 2.0 and 3.0 is displacement mapping, and that's something you can't even notice until you're up close to something aggressively parallax-mapped. Heck, when marketing SM3.0 Nvidia had to use SM1.1 for comparison shots, since the visual difference between 2.0 and 3.0 was so negligible.

Yes, I know what the differences are. I'm an IT guy....been working in the industry for over a decade, currently working for an Ivy League institution. I could probably write the white paper on SM3.0.

You're OVERTHINKING the specs because it pisses you off that you can't play. The "average" consumer isn't going to do that. So any "rant" that the box specs aren't clear is moot.

And, ultimately, it doesn't matter. Your rants don't matter (and are typical, emotional diatribes). The points are:

1) 2k made it obvious to the consumer what they were doing.

2) Every time a game developer "requires" new tech, whatever you may think of that tech's place in the industry, you have exactly what is in this thread (and you display so perfectly): Whining. Pointless, meaningless whining.

[MJay]

This apparently is the new meaning of the slogan "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" :rolleyes:

Yes, I unfortunately have the X800-series card and I'm sort-of pissed here. I tried the demo on X360 and it seem'd quite nice game but without the great controls of the PC fps's. So I wanted to try the PC demo... That was a no-go, for some reason... Unless someone liked really mushroomy visuals :D

I'm not (yet) going to buy a new graphics card for this. I think this is way too big a step they've made at the company. That is, just to ignore all the semi-new SM2.0 capable card-owners, although, some cards having well enough grunt to make this game running without looking like total crap. But let's see what happens....

No offence, none taken ;)

[Viz79]

Kam is really an example of some fat nerd sitting at his PC somewhere content that we arnt physically near him so we can rip him a new arsehole.

Idiot - my card is two years old, can fun FEAR at full settings and was one of the last radeon cards taht didnt have 3.0 support. ATI took longer to add it but the card is THREE times more powerful than the equiv Nvidia cards with 3.0 support.

My card has gone from running similar games at highest settings to not running at all for the sake of slightly prettier water. And the hack has already shown it would have run fine on 2.0 cards. Also you little troll learn that most games are not forcing this and that last Steam survey showed half users dont even have 3.0 cards. You want me to update my card every two years? STFU.

Simply the case that the game NEEDED 3.0 is rubbish, it certainly did not by a long shot and many users purchased the game because they didnt dream their cards had become outdated overnight by ONE game since all others ran fast.

And Kam - get laid for the love of god, steal some cash out of your mom's purse if you need to and try and get some hooker drunk so she agrees to it when she is plastered out of her mind. It isnt going to solve most of your problems but at least you won't be quite as much of a -------.

[Viz79]

AND btw because of this Radeon issue, many users preordered the game without the slightest clue they woudlnt be able to running it.. because surprise surprise, this decision means many users that never check system requirements since they usually own them are finding they can't play it because PS 3.0 support. It really is a 'wtf are you kidding me ' situation.

The 'you should have known' answer is pathetic. Going from running games at breakneck speed to not at all in one swoop is ridiculous.

[Rapture_Tourist]

Viz79 and KamikaZe received a warning because of insulting other members.

[Bioshock_FTW!]

"Would you kindly" keep this thread on-topic? And knock it off with the rudeness and language, you'll be banned in no-time. Thanks

[Viz79]

Ill be honest though, I hate breaking rules on forums, I only just registered literally an hour ago to this madness but this one time for 'this' guy It was soooo worth it :) Ill behave now, promise. LOL.

I am amazed though - you post public warnings - I mean was it an announcement to the populace so they behave? Or is along with every other issue at 2K the private messaging system is not working either? :)

[Twinsen]

You're OVERTHINKING the specs because it pisses you off that you can't play. The "average" consumer isn't going to do that. So any "rant" that the box specs aren't clear is moot.

1) 2k made it obvious to the consumer what they were doing.

Actually, they didn't make it obvious what they were doing, as they didn't tell people. They might have posted it on this forum months ago, but they didn't tell the consumer. It is NOT PRINTED ON THE BOX IN ANY MANNER WARNING US. Go read the box, it has the same requirements that FEAR or Oblivion or any of the newer HL2 mods has. Those games we play with our cards at high settings, and run them a hell of a lot better than any x1300 or 6600 ever could.

When a box says I need a 6600 or better, I figure I can put the game dvd into my Daewoo dvd player and run it on my television for crying out loud.

[Viz79]

What is rather bothersome is the need for people that have no issue with this aspect of the game to post. I dont understand how this is not trolling - if someone has an issue with an aspect of the game let them discuss it. If one doesnt and it doesnt bother them, their post in opposition is basically to rile the other person up i.e. trolling! But this aspect seems to be lost on moderators so be it.

ON TOPIC: The X800/X850 issue is a serious one - these last PS 2.0 ATI cards are powerful enough to run this game by far and since all recent games are played well with it (FEAR full settings), there really is no reason anyone would ahve looked into the system requirements for Bioshock. It honestly is a revelation to MANY that it doesnt support 2.0 especially since its the first game to do this and its a case of 'my card works great with latest games' to 'omg what do you mean my card isnt supported'. If this isnt understood by some people, honestly god help you.

[pilferk]

Actually, they didn't make it obvious what they were doing, as they didn't tell people. They might have posted it on this forum months ago, but they didn't tell the consumer. It is NOT PRINTED ON THE BOX IN ANY MANNER WARNING US. Go read the box, it has the same requirements that FEAR or Oblivion or any of the newer HL2 mods has. Those games we play with our cards at high settings, and run them a hell of a lot better than any x1300 or 6600 ever could.

When a box says I need a 6600 or better, I figure I can put the game dvd into my Daewoo dvd player and run it on my television for crying out loud.

You have an x800 or x850. Is the x1300 (the minimum listed on the box) not a newer card, with a "higher number" (regardless of horsepower), the manner ATI chooses to designates it's cards?

You can overthink what's printed on the box all you want....simply because you're pissed they're not supporting your card. You can try to twist what's written so it appears you've been misled (Of course, you flat out admitted in your first post YOU DIDN'T even read the minimum specs). But, regardless of your INTERPRETATION of the clearly printed minimum specs, 2k DID put them right on the box. Your misiterpretation isn't their fault. It's yours.

So, whine some more. But I doubt anyone really cares....and it's certainly not going to accomplish any thing. Upgrade or don't play it.

[Viz79]

And HOW is the above post not an effort to rile posters on purpose? He purposely ignores all posts explaining the issues with the 800 cards and the reasonabless issue of lack of support and aggressively replies to the OP through out this thread. But because he doesnt explitely insult him, there is no warning?

[pilferk]

What is rather bothersome is the need for people that have no issue with this aspect of the game to post. I dont understand how this is not trolling - if someone has an issue with an aspect of the game let them discuss it. If one doesnt and it doesnt bother them, their post in opposition is basically to rile the other person up i.e. trolling! But this aspect seems to be lost on moderators so be it.

ON TOPIC: The X800/X850 issue is a serious one - these last PS 2.0 ATI cards are powerful enough to run this game by far and since all recent games are played well with it (FEAR full settings), there really is no reason anyone would ahve looked into the system requirements for Bioshock. It honestly is a revelation to MANY that it doesnt support 2.0 especially since its the first game to do this and its a case of 'my card works great with latest games' to 'omg what do you mean my card isnt supported'. If this isnt understood by some people, honestly god help you.

I have no issue with the "warning" piece of the OP. But given all the other issues going on, I don't think the "ranting" piece is worthwhile or productive. Lets face it: the specs on the box say it all. 2k talked about it over and over the past months, too. Many previews talked about it to. They did everything humanly possible to get the word out. So the "whine" basically is: "2k decided to use new tech....I can't support it....woe is me". Yes, it sucks to be you. What would you have anyone do about it?

Define "powerful enough". They lack some fuctions of SM3 cards, maybe not ones that directly effect visual quality (only one of those) but other functions that improve efficiency and performance. 2k obviously felt those functions were necessary to present the game in the manner they wanted it presented. They made that decision, with, I'm sure, eyes open on how it would limit the number of PC users able to run the app. Why do you think they'd about face and change that decision now? You don't think they EXPECTED the "outcry"? Seriously?

Welcome to the wonderful world of PC gaming....monday, your hardware was fine. Tuesday, something came out that made it "obsolete", to a certain extent. Same story, different day. It's happend SOOOO many times in the past..... Why is that so hard to come to grips with? Don't like it? Don't buy the game. As you point out, there's bunches of others out there you can play. Go play 'em. But the whining? Not gonna really get anything accomplished.

[pilferk]

And HOW is the above post not an effort to rile posters on purpose? He purposely ignores all posts explaining the issues with the 800 cards and the reasonabless issue of lack of support and aggressively replies to the OP through out this thread. But because he doesnt explitely insult him, there is no warning?


I'm not tryint to "rile up" anyone. I'm simply explaining the situation rationally.

There's WAY too much "emotion" and not enough "logic" bumping around THIS relatively minor issue.

You can "explain" the wonders of the x800 series all you want...they don't meet the minimum specs. Period. End of story. Move on. Nothing to see here.

[Viz79]

Are you joking? When will it end - you may be fine with an inevitable situation with people upgrading their cards every other week and if YOU and everyone else are happy to do it, both Nvidia and the developers will be really happy people. And YOU BTW will be the one that looks like a fool.

Some of us are not happy with that - the decision is an example of trying to push users in a certain way regardless of demographics. The upgrade of a card playing games at highest settings to none at all is unprecedented - yes cards become obsolute over time. How about from running at high to NONE? If that is also reasonable for you, you're the sort of guy that will do whatever a publisher/developer wants so you can play the game and they can earn their money. You truly are the ideal customer.

Luckily most are definitely not like you - take a big look around.

[Manchu Warrior]

Regardless of all the negative posts I have to thank the Original Poster.

Any average person with my specs would "think" they could run the game. I'm not running the old AGP models...

AMD 3700+
X800 XL
1 GB
Windows XP with all of Bill's patches.

Another issue people need to realize is not only do people need to upgrade their card now they also need to upgrade their Power Supply. Most of us anyway....

I consider my specs to be decent (I didn't say top of the line) but for the game to not run at all....

Between Vista being screwed up and the limited amount of DX10 capable cards personally I'm not going to buy the game. Its easy...

I just don't think its a good time to upgrade. Waste of time and money. I'll wait until Vista has another year for patches and drivers, and more DX10 cards are available.

[Twinsen]

When the hell did I say I didn't read the specs? If I said anything like that, I meant I didn't release whatever specs were given to forum insiders before the release of the game. Obviously I read on the box that I'd just need an x1300.

Troll.

[psychobob]

Hello friends and wellwishers,

I have a thinkpad with an x1400 and bioshock ran on it......not well, but ran. I set it at the lowest possible widescreen resolution with everything on low.

Yesterday, i just purchased a quadcore system with an abit mobo that has the xpress 1250 chipset. The onboard gpu is equivalant to an x700 or x800 not sure.

Is the X700/X800 older than the x1300/x1400?

[Stardog]

Define "powerful enough". They lack some fuctions of SM3 cards, maybe not ones that directly effect visual quality (only one of those) but other functions that improve efficiency and performance. 2k obviously felt those functions were necessary to present the game in the manner they wanted it presented. They made that decision, with, I'm sure, eyes open on how it would limit the number of PC users able to run the app. Why do you think they'd about face and change that decision now? You don't think they EXPECTED the "outcry"? Seriously?
If you're than naive then fair enough. Nvidia logos appear at the start of most of the SM3-only games released don't they? Double Agent, Lost Planet, Colin Mcrae: DiRT. I will take a random guess that Rainbow 6 Vegas has a "The way it's meant to be played" logo too. Nvidia clearly had a big hand (of cash) in it. Also note them all being bad Xbox 360 ports. It's a case of the 360 can do SM3.0, so we'll do it, we don't care about the PC market where almost 50% won't be able to play.

Welcome to the wonderful world of PC gaming....monday, your hardware was fine. Tuesday, something came out that made it "obsolete", to a certain extent. Same story, different day. It's happend SOOOO many times in the past..... Why is that so hard to come to grips with? Don't like it? Don't buy the game. As you point out, there's bunches of others out there you can play. Go play 'em. But the whining? Not gonna really get anything accomplished.
Not true. Cards have mostly been able to chug along fine then eventually get slower... slower... then upgrade. Now it's a case of the card running games fast enough... yet not being able to play at all.

[Stardog]

Is the X700/X800 older than the x1300/x1400?
Yes, but I believe they both may be faster than the x1300/x1400. The x800 is definately faster than them.

The x700 and 800 won't run Bioshock.

[pilferk]

Are you joking? When will it end - you may be fine with an inevitable situation with people upgrading their cards every other week and if YOU and everyone else are happy to do it, both Nvidia and the developers will be really happy people. And YOU BTW will be the one that looks like a fool.

Some of us are not happy with that - the decision is an example of trying to push users in a certain way regardless of demographics. The upgrade of a card playing games at highest settings to none at all is unprecedented - yes cards become obsolute over time. How about from running at high to NONE? If that is also reasonable for you, you're the sort of guy that will do whatever a publisher/developer wants so you can play the game and they can earn their money. You truly are the ideal customer.

Luckily most are definitely not like you - take a big look around.

It's not unprecedented. Look back at the age of CGA, EGA, VGA, and SVGA. Look at the move from 286 to 386 to 486 tech. One day, a game comes out...and requires new tech. SOMEONE is always first on the bleeding edge. And you see exactly what we have in this thread.....

They're hardly asking you to upgrade "every other week". The X800's are what.....2 years old now? Maybe more? And no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to upgrade. Simply don't buy/play the game. It's not like you're "entitled" to Bioshock. It's not air. It's not water. It's a game.

Is it a decison to drive hardware sales? Maybe. It could also be a decision based on what the devs deem "acceptable performance levels". I don't know. But it was THEIR decision to make. Again, nobody is forcing you to buy the game. If they make less money by making the decision...why do you care? You own a piece of 2k?

I've been caught MANY times in the PC "upgrade" smackdown. I've been gaming on the PC for close to 25 years (my first PC was an 8088) I choose to either buy the hardware required...or not buy and play the game. Always seems a simple choice to me. Did I miss out on some games I would have liked to play? Sure. Complaining about it seems to be unproductive, though.

[psychobob]

Yes, but I believe they both may be faster than the x1300/x1400. The x800 is definately faster than them.

The x700 and 800 won't run Bioshock.

So it's all a matter of the Shader Model. I was planning to purchase this game, but I really don't want to buy a new card for it.

Thank god for the demo, right Twinsem?

[pilferk]

If you're than naive then fair enough. Nvidia logos appear at the start of most of the SM3-only games released don't they? Double Agent, Lost Planet, Colin Mcrae: DiRT. I will take a random guess that Rainbow 6 Vegas has a "The way it's meant to be played" logo too. Nvidia clearly had a big hand (of cash) in it. Also note them all being bad Xbox 360 ports. It's a case of the 360 can do SM3.0, so we'll do it, we don't care about the PC market where almost 50% won't be able to play.


Which says nothing about 2k being "unaware" that there would be a sizeable demo of PC owners unable to play the game. See, I'm sure they DID know that. Maybe they did take cash from Nvidia. So now it's a business decision: Funding from Nvidia $$ vs lost sales by cutting out that demo. Again, I'm sure the bean counters did the "math", based on resource use, etc and came to an informed decision.

They knew what they were doing, they made the decision anyway.


Not true. Cards have mostly been able to chug along fine then eventually get slower... slower... then upgrade. Now it's a case of the card running games fast enough... yet not being able to play at all.

Monochrome to CGA. CGA to EGA. EGA to VGA. VGA to SVGA. SVGA to 3dfx. 3dfx to "standard" 2d/3d boards.

NOW it's more common to simply see a card slowly become obsolete. It's not unprecedented, though, for things like what's happened with Bioshock.

[Twinsen]

So it's all a matter of the Shader Model. I was planning to purchase this game, but I really don't want to buy a new card for it.

Thank god for the demo, right Twinsem?

Haha, you owned me. I bought the game. It's ok though, I know how to return something at WalMart when I go in to buy bird seed or dog chow.

[Fumz]

pilferk,

You're making perfectly logical and reasonable points; however, you're sorta coming off as a know-it-all ass who's only here to kick guys when they're down. Not saying that you are or that that's your intent, it's just you're being a little harsh, imho. Perhaps letting them ***** and moan would be ok. If I were in their shoes I might too?

[psychobob]

Haha, you owned me. I bought the game. It's ok though, I know how to return something at WalMart when I go in to buy bird seed or dog chow.

How about putting off buying food for your pets for a couple of months, and invest in a better video card. Just feed your pets your scraps. Then you can play bioshock and everyone in this thread can be happy :p

[pilferk]

Haha, you owned me. I bought the game. It's ok though, I know how to return something at WalMart when I go in to buy bird seed or dog chow.

Stay away from the dog chow.....might make Fido sick. The dog biscuits certainly have been a problem....

[pbruckne]

Unfortunately, this important piece of information puts my purchase decision on hold. I had planned on picking up a copy on the way home from the office this evening.

My gaming rig is only two years old, running an overclocked Athlon 64, with the 800XL w/512MB video ram, a gig of DDR2 and runs with the best of any of the mid-level machines on the market. Looking that the latest VGA Charts on Tom's http://http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=743&model2=778&chart=299 the 800 series cards are still damn near in the middle of the pack.

I have to agree with Viz79, the average PC user isn't going to have the slightest idea what shader 2.0 or 3.0 is. The marketing folks don't help the situation. How much information or disclaimers can you or should you need to put on the package. At least make it crystal clear in plain english or whatever language you prefer.

I also a bit disappointed at the rants attacking people on the basis of their ability to afford a new gpu on top of the purchase price of the game. I'm not as bad off as some and I also made the right decision when I purchased my motherboard as it supports both AGP & PCI-E, but many users machines do not. Throw in a new power supply, along with that new motherboard and you're in the $400 range right out of the gate. Maybe this is chump change to some, but I suspect not many.

Yes, this is my very first post on 2K's site, but I've been around the block a few times and find the lack of support for 2.0 troubling at best. Reminds me a bit of when I had to purchase a STB Velocity 128 to run Unreal due to the raw processing power it required. If I recall correctly, that was also about when AGP replaced PCI.

As for downloading the Demo, I can't even imagine attempting this unless you have DSL or Cable. Market penetration is <50% so the pie is even smaller than the 2.0 vs. 3.0 data would suggest. Wonder how long it takes to download at 56K on a good connection of 53,333 Kbps. I guess someone could do the math.

Guess I'm going to have take the empty pop can money away from the kids for a while and shop for a new video card.

-P

[pilferk]

pilferk,

You're making perfectly logical and reasonable points; however, you're sorta coming off as a know-it-all ass who's only here to kick guys when they're down. Not saying that you are or that that's your intent, it's just you're being a little harsh, imho. Perhaps letting them ***** and moan would be ok. If I were in their shoes I might too?

I'm not trying to...really, I'm not. And I'm not trying to harsh, either.

Here's my issue: I think the "warning" is a legit thing. It serves a great purpose in the tech support forums.

The problem with the ranting is that it ends up pushing REAL tech support issues further down and they get missed and ignored. I know...not really my problem. But it's frustrating to see people who are actually asking for help "disappear" because this section is getting overwhelmed.

And yes, I know..the fact I keep posting brings the thread back up to the top and does exactly what I don't want to see.

You're righ...I'll leave them to cry in their cups.

Have a beer on me, folks...I'm out.

[psychobob]

Does anyone know any other games besides Bioshock that don't support SM2.0?

[Viz79]

The problem with you Pilferk is that youre telling us that nothing can be achieved by this. It shows that you really know very little. Take a little look at the 'ask dev' forums to find that the developers already know of the issue and are seeing if they can resolve it. i.e. the shader issue is already on their tables being discussed.

I've been gaming over 20 years too - the difference between you and me is that you're the sort of guy that just lets things happen. If a game is released and you can't play it, you'll upgrade happily no matter if you just purchased the card a week ago and the develoeprs decided to push forward like this.

You in fact remind me of the rather amusing reference in the original Dawn of the Dead where the zombies mill around aimlessly around a shopping mall. While 2K forums really as I said would love to have their entire buying public like you, these forums seem to indicate anything but. Im surprised youre not defending the secure installation issue either. For you whatever the devs do, you'll upgrade or not buy. Ill wager its always the first though.

[Viz79]

Does anyone know any other games besides Bioshock that don't support SM2.0?

No. The only others will be Crysis and Jericho. And I bet Jericho devs will attempt to make it 2.0 compatible fast when they see whats happened here. Crysis is different as its truly next gen and will require a serious card anyway.. that is a real example of a game requiring an upgrade.

So simply - Bioshock is a stupid example of devs upgrading requirements for all the wrong reasons.

[Viz79]

Actually I am hearing Crysis does support 2.0 and Jericho is likely to change its requirements so...

NO. No other games!

Current petition btw is 1100 to have this implemented. And thats in the first day :P

[KaoTiK]

Unfortunately, this important piece of information puts my purchase decision on hold. I had planned on picking up a copy on the way home from the office this evening.

My gaming rig is only two years old, running an overclocked Athlon 64, with the 800XL w/512MB video ram, a gig of DDR2 and runs with the best of any of the mid-level machines on the market. Looking that the latest VGA Charts on Tom's http://http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=743&model2=778&chart=299 the 800 series cards are still damn near in the middle of the pack.

I have to agree with Viz79, the average PC user isn't going to have the slightest idea what shader 2.0 or 3.0 is. The marketing folks don't help the situation. How much information or disclaimers can you or should you need to put on the package. At least make it crystal clear in plain english or whatever language you prefer.

I also a bit disappointed at the rants attacking people on the basis of their ability to afford a new gpu on top of the purchase price of the game. I'm not as bad off as some and I also made the right decision when I purchased my motherboard as it supports both AGP & PCI-E, but many users machines do not. Throw in a new power supply, along with that new motherboard and you're in the $400 range right out of the gate. Maybe this is chump change to some, but I suspect not many.

Yes, this is my very first post on 2K's site, but I've been around the block a few times and find the lack of support for 2.0 troubling at best. Reminds me a bit of when I had to purchase a STB Velocity 128 to run Unreal due to the raw processing power it required. If I recall correctly, that was also about when AGP replaced PCI.

As for downloading the Demo, I can't even imagine attempting this unless you have DSL or Cable. Market penetration is <50% so the pie is even smaller than the 2.0 vs. 3.0 data would suggest. Wonder how long it takes to download at 56K on a good connection of 53,333 Kbps. I guess someone could do the math.

Guess I'm going to have take the empty pop can money away from the kids for a while and shop for a new video card.

-P

Couple of quick points here...

People don't have to know what the difference between SM2.0 and 3.0 is, they just have to know if their card is fully DirectX 9.0c compliant. The key part being the c. Fulling DX9.0 is not acceptable, it has to be 9.0c, which it clearly states on the minimum requirements.

The second quick point is this:

My gaming rig is only two years old, running an overclocked Athlon 64, with the 800XL w/512MB video ram, a gig of DDR2 and runs with the best of any of the mid-level machines on the market.

Just because you bought your computer 2 years ago, doesn't mean it's only 2 years old. Those components/architectures are actually much older. 3-4 years old in fact. Aside from that, your computer will not run with the best of any of the mid-level machines on the market. A mid-level machine right now would be a Core 2 Duo E6420 ($186 on Newegg), 2GB of DDR2 800 ($99 on Newegg, Corsair Value Select), and a GeForce 8800GTS 320MB ($279 on Newegg).

Anything less than the components I just listed would be entry level, 8600, etc. Higher levels would be 8800GTS 640, 8800GTX, and 8800 Ultra.

Unfortunately for you, an X800XL is mid-range for the X800 generation, X850XT Platinum being the flagship for that generation.

X8XX is 3 generations old at this point. You believe that your mid-range card of 3 generations age is equivalent to this generations mid-range?

[Stardog]

NOW it's more common to simply see a card slowly become obsolete. It's not unprecedented, though, for things like what's happened with Bioshock.
You're right... but you're suggesting the X8* series is obselete. The whole point is that it's not. Unreal Tournament 3 (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=%22Unreal+Tournament+3%22&svnum=30&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB177GB229&sa=N&imgsz=xxlarge) and Crysis (http://images.google.co.uk/images?imgsz=xxlarge&svnum=30&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB177GB229&q=%22crysis%22&btnG=Search+Images) will run on these cards. Why should Bioshock, which debatably won't look as technically good looking, not run?

I don't get why some of you are so against it though. These people want to spend money on Bioshock, but can't.

[psychobob]

No. The only others will be Crysis and Jericho. And I bet Jericho devs will attempt to make it 2.0 compatible fast when they see whats happened here. Crysis is different as its truly next gen and will require a serious card anyway.. that is a real example of a game requiring an upgrade.

So simply - Bioshock is a stupid example of devs upgrading requirements for all the wrong reasons.

To be honest, the SM2 only graphic cards are really too slow for Bioshock and upcoming games. I played the bioshock demo on an x1400 at 950xsomething with everything low or off and it was still quite choppy. Even if they do make it SM2 compatible, I question if it would even be worth playing it.

I understand alot of gamer's are conscious of their wallet, but fast progress is the reality of PC gaming technology. I've been gaming on computers for quite a longtime, and ever since the voodoo GPU i've spent $1500+ every 3-4 years which is usually the norm cycle. And that is what the average PC gamer spends. So you're expected to upgrade and spend alot of money in a short period. Also, GPUs usually have a lifespan of 2 years if you still want to play current games at good settings. It's the nature of the game.

I know people really want to play it on these older cards, but maybe it's time to move forward.

[pbruckne]

Thanks for the comments, KaoTik.

I have to agree that 800XL was at the end of the hardware cycle. As such, at the time of purchase it was $100 or so less than the pci-e counterpart and a bargin. The Athlon pruchase was also based on price vs. performance similar to that of the E 6400/6420 both with high OC'ing capability.

The key issue remains that one may not be able to simply replace just their gpu. I had built that machine specifically for DOOM3. This isn't the first or the last time hardware will be required to support the lastest bells and whistles, but at least you could turn some of them off and run the game. I still think that it's a shame considering many will have the raw processing power. But in the end, as always, the hardware required will be purchased.

As for DirectX 9.0c, I want to say that every recent FPS that I have installed (Prey, BF2, BF 2142, CoD, DOOM3 and I think even Half-Life) either installed or asked if you wanted to install DirectX 9.0c. To the general user, this would suggest that this is a software update and not specific to hardware. The software updates, the end user would typically have no issues, and all is good. I'm thinking most of the population would come to the conclusion that their hardware must support it of it loaded ok.

Anyways, great thread. Some good info for those looking for answers and insight for those who look before they leap.

-P

[sugaki]

To be honest, the SM2 only graphic cards are really too slow for Bioshock and upcoming games. I played the bioshock demo on an x1400 at 950xsomething with everything low or off and it was still quite choppy. Even if they do make it SM2 compatible, I question if it would even be worth playing it.

Yet another poster swathed in ignorance. An X1400 is a low-end video card. The X800 is a high-end previous gen video card that's MORE powerful than a mid-range SM3.0 current-gen video card. You simply don't know what you're talking about, so don't post.

[sugaki]

Yes, I know what the differences are. I'm an IT guy....been working in the industry for over a decade, currently working for an Ivy League institution. I could probably write the white paper on SM3.0.

IT means absolute jack with regards to SM3.0. IT people don't program, IT people don't need to know anything about GPU architecture. And yes, explain pray tell how an Ivy League institution will need SM3.0 for its library computers? Your day job of rebooting Pentium 3s in some computer lab so some student can print out his thesis means nothing.

[Viz79]

Sugaki is completely right and I wish some of these people would shut up. My X850XL owns any current FPS - I can play FEAR at full settings just like that. All of this is happening purely because the end Radeon 2.0 cards were three times as powerful as Nvidia equivs but ATI took a little long to adapt their cards to 3.0

AND 2K happen to be the only company it seems to have a 3.0 only game for the entirity of 2007 and 2008. I dont even know of another game demanding this that has even been announced. Clever.

[sugaki]

Sugaki is completely right and I wish some of these people would shut up. My X850XL owns any current FPS - I can play FEAR at full settings just like that. All of this is happening purely because the end Radeon 2.0 cards were three times as powerful as Nvidia equivs but ATI took a little long to adapt their cards to 3.0

AND 2K happen to be the only company it seems to have a 3.0 only game for the entirity of 2007 and 2008. I dont even know of another game demanding this that has even been announced. Clever.

I just bought a GeForce 7800GS, which is *slower* than my X800XT AIW. Ugh. Giving my old card to my brother. At least the eVGA card has a quiet fan. But it ticks me off o see all these people coming into this thread thinking X800 is an outdated GPU. Wish these trolls would get the heck out of the thread.

Another thing: people who brag about dumping $500 on their GPU need to get a life. It's a GPU, not a Lamborghini. Not everybody who uses a lesser card does so because of money issues. Some people are waiting for DX10 to firmly settle in before upgrading.

[Viz79]

You shouldnt have purchased that card for this game - this whole situation is ridiculous. I actually have to pay money to downgrade my card a little so I can play THIS game? When my PC setup is such that I can play any of the next gen games such as Crysis and Unreal Tournament?

Screw 2K, patch this game I say to them or Ill play something else no matter how sublime the experience and keep my money in my pocket. If my card can run those games it can run this, they are basically making me spend more money for no reason!

And just this game mind you, just Bioshock. No other game. Apparently Bioshock is a work of art - they must be artists because surely they have no idea about business.

[captainnemo]

Rainbow six vegas and Splinter cell double Agent required smart shader 3.0

I could be wrong, but I mean seriously, this isn't the first game, it's just the first game you can think of.

[psychobob]

Yet another poster swathed in ignorance. An X1400 is a low-end video card. The X800 is a high-end previous gen video card that's MORE powerful than a mid-range SM3.0 current-gen video card. You simply don't know what you're talking about, so don't post.

I thought my post was neutral and non threatening, but apparently it was enough for a dweeb to show his internet anger. Go outside and get some air, instead of jerking off to benchmarks.

[psychobob]

Sugaki is completely right and I wish some of these people would shut up. My X850XL owns any current FPS - I can play FEAR at full settings just like that. All of this is happening purely because the end Radeon 2.0 cards were three times as powerful as Nvidia equivs but ATI took a little long to adapt their cards to 3.0

AND 2K happen to be the only company it seems to have a 3.0 only game for the entirity of 2007 and 2008. I dont even know of another game demanding this that has even been announced. Clever.

Actually, it happened because Nvidia payed 2K to drop support for SM2. Alot of gamers with ATI SM2 cards will think ATI is **** because it won't play Bioshock and purchase Nvidia. That's my working theory :)

[sugaki]

I thought my post was neutral and non threatening, but apparently it was enough for a dweeb to show his internet anger. Go outside and get some air, instead of jerking off to benchmarks.

Yes, I'm sure you're writing this in the open air, Corona in hand. If you can't take being blithely wrong, maybe you shouldn't be in here.

[psychobob]

Yes, I'm sure you're writing this in the open air, Corona in hand. If you can't take being blithely wrong, maybe you shouldn't be in here.

I'm here because I have an x700, and gave my opinion without being a pompous prick. I just find it strange how a post like mine can could have angered someone. But I realize this is the internet and many people are trying to compensate for their shortcomings.

[sugaki]

I'm here because I have an x700, and gave my opinion without being a pompous prick. I just find it strange how a post like mine can could have angered someone. But I realize this is the internet and many people are trying to compensate for their shortcomings.

Because I'm sick and tired of people who've fallen for Nvidia's marketing hype of SM3.0. 95% of posts here say to the effect of "Bioshock can't be in 2.0 because the graphics are too advanced." Yes, it ticks me off. That's crap. HL2 has HDR (a supposed SM3.0 feature), and yet 2.0SM cards do 99% of those things just fine. Were Bioshock to feature SM2.0, most people won't even be able to tell the difference. ATI had the chance to do SM3.0 w/ X800, they didn't because they didn't think it was worth it.

[psychobob]

Because I'm sick and tired of people who've fallen for Nvidia's marketing hype of SM3.0. 95% of posts here say to the effect of "Bioshock can't be in 2.0 because the graphics are too advanced." Yes, it ticks me off. That's crap. HL2 has HDR (a supposed SM3.0 feature), and yet 2.0SM cards do 99% of those things just fine. Were Bioshock to feature SM2.0, most people won't even be able to tell the difference. ATI had the chance to do SM3.0 w/ X800, they didn't because they didn't think it was worth it.

Ok relax have a beer

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Corona-Beer-Poster-C10031999.jpeg

:)

You think you're mad now though? Next year we'll probably be told SM3 is obsolete and needs to be replaced with SM4.

[nossr50]

Because I'm sick and tired of people who've fallen for Nvidia's marketing hype of SM3.0. 95% of posts here say to the effect of "Bioshock can't be in 2.0 because the graphics are too advanced." Yes, it ticks me off. That's crap. HL2 has HDR (a supposed SM3.0 feature), and yet 2.0SM cards do 99% of those things just fine. Were Bioshock to feature SM2.0, most people won't even be able to tell the difference. ATI had the chance to do SM3.0 w/ X800, they didn't because they didn't think it was worth it.

Newsflash: Half-Life 2 has FAKE HDR, they designed their own for SM2.0. Newer games use the real HDR supported by SM3.0. Is there a difference? Negligible, but it's no reason to go around whining "BAAAAWWW HALF-LIFE 2 DID IT WHY CAN'T EVERY OTHER DEVELOPER DO IT 3.0 IS SOOOO OVERRATED." Not everyone is your precious valve company, and yeah, ATI didn't add 3.0 to the x800 series, a series of cards that came out when there were practically 0 SM3.0 games, and wow... over time it seems that games are making use of new technologies... go figure. It feels like the next thing on your **** list is how we used DX9 for the past 5 years and have no need to switch to DX10. And for those who care, there is a difference between SM3.0, you just wouldn't notice it because it's unlikely a game will feature options for both shaders. One thing that sticks out is better shadows, and better renders.

[sugaki]

Ok relax have a beer

Yes, I do need a beer considering I dumped $160 on a slower video card :)

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Corona-Beer-Poster-C10031999.jpeg

:)

You think you're mad now though? Next year we'll probably be told SM3 is obsolete and needs to be replaced with SM4.[/QUOTE]

Head's up :) (Hefeweizen would be nice around now)

Well I apologize for being rude--I thought you were another one of those "lol SM3.0 FTW" people on the boards, and I was wrong. Those ppl really strike a nerve.

As for SM4.0, THAT was the whole reason why I wasn't going to buy a card for awhile. I'm waiting for DX10 gaming to be optimized, and SM4.0 along w/ that. SM3.0 is a pretty negligible upgrade, and isn't worth it if you have a powerful SM2.0 card. But here I am with a slower SM3.0 card (7800GS) so I can play the game. Ugh.

[Zetetic Apparatchik]

Um, real HDR surely involves an HDR-capable display. I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing between SM2.0 and SM3.0 HDR but both will be rendering to a display with a normal dynamic range.

[sugaki]

Newsflash: Half-Life 2 has FAKE HDR, they designed their own for SM2.0. Newer games use the real HDR supported by SM3.0. Is there a difference? Negligible, but it's no reason to go around whining "BAAAAWWW HALF-LIFE 2 DID IT WHY CAN'T EVERY OTHER DEVELOPER DO IT 3.0 IS SOOOO OVERRATED." Not everyone is your precious valve company, and yeah, ATI didn't add 3.0 to the x800 series, a series of cards that came out when there were practically 0 SM3.0 games, and wow... over time it seems that games are making use of new technologies... go figure. It feels like the next thing on your **** list is how we used DX9 for the past 5 years and have no need to switch to DX10. And for those who care, there is a difference between SM3.0, you just wouldn't notice it because it's unlikely a game will feature options for both shaders. One thing that sticks out is better shadows, and better renders.

The jump between DX9 and DX10 is huge. The jump between SM2.0 and SM3.0 is barely noticeable (even as you said). Not a good parallel.

[Viz79]

I dont think this whole 2K situation bodes well for for them regardless of the outcome now. PC communities are notariously bad at forgiving. I mean just LOOK at Ion Storm. All they did was make a dumbed down port for a much loved game and they were thrown out of the house on their head.

These guys are new and did far worse, they basically sold out a section of the PC gaming community from the very start and now are stating the situation as a 'feature' they are looking into. And these SAME guys thought 2 installations per purchase was reasonable.

This whole installation article is not only all over the internet but is now even being covered in a CNN article? Even Rockstar didnt make this much of a explosion in one smack with Hot Coffee :) But 2K is 'no' Rockstar - no matter how sublime this game is, people are more likely to just say 'Fudge it' and return the game.

[KaoTiK]

Thanks for the comments, KaoTik.

I have to agree that 800XL was at the end of the hardware cycle. As such, at the time of purchase it was $100 or so less than the pci-e counterpart and a bargin. The Athlon pruchase was also based on price vs. performance similar to that of the E 6400/6420 both with high OC'ing capability.

The key issue remains that one may not be able to simply replace just their gpu. I had built that machine specifically for DOOM3. This isn't the first or the last time hardware will be required to support the lastest bells and whistles, but at least you could turn some of them off and run the game. I still think that it's a shame considering many will have the raw processing power. But in the end, as always, the hardware required will be purchased.

As for DirectX 9.0c, I want to say that every recent FPS that I have installed (Prey, BF2, BF 2142, CoD, DOOM3 and I think even Half-Life) either installed or asked if you wanted to install DirectX 9.0c. To the general user, this would suggest that this is a software update and not specific to hardware. The software updates, the end user would typically have no issues, and all is good. I'm thinking most of the population would come to the conclusion that their hardware must support it of it loaded ok.

Anyways, great thread. Some good info for those looking for answers and insight for those who look before they leap.

-P

It is definitely a shame that they have chosen to exclude PS2.0 from the game completely, but from a programming standpoint it saves them a lot of time/work on the game. I think the general idea is that they want to push PS2.0 out of the picture and move everything into PS3.0 to simplify.

I can see where you're coming from though, and I would like to see a PS2.0 compatibility patch come out in the near future for those who are still running a PS2.0 card that despite the age still has the horsepower to run current games to some extent.

[bwl2]

I'll tell you right now, I'm using a 2.0 shader x850xt PE, that I purchased less than a year ago, so you know where I am coming from with this. I dont think the 800 serise is past it's expiration date. It has run every game I have thrown at it exept the bioshock demo with ease. I was hoping that my card would have a short period where it went from ultra to medium to low to needing a replacement. I did not expect my card to go from ultra settings at my monitors native resolution to a useless POS. This is why I am displeased. I did not expect to play bioshock with everything turned on, but I expected to play it. I was wise enough not to preorder the game, but I am still upset. Is that wrong? I think not. I understand that I will need to buy a new card, but when Crysis is supossedly supporting 2.0 and with Spore and Starcraft 2 in the wings, I would rather wait and see what I need to play all that. Also with the current 2.0 debocle, I fear buying a 7900 because its 3.0 while the 8000 serise is freaking 4.0. On the other hand I dont have vista so why purchase a 8000 serise when I cant even get the only advantage they give me. That leaves me with the option of waiting for the next serise of cards, and I dont like that idea either, because there is no gaurentee when they might be released.

[Twinsen]

Yeah, vid cards haven't really evolved into anything special lately. Unlike proc technology which seems to be booming at the moment. Each graphic generation is like an introduction of 6 lame cards and 3 good ones that cost $500.

[Shredded_Wheat]

I forsee many people that aren't familiar with what SM means and buying the game and then having to return the game and go through alot of heartache with the retail shop since most retailers will only exchange games for an exact replacement. I can understand if the box mentions on it the exact chipsets that are and aren't supported. But who is going to realize that anyone chipset is better than the next (ie hierarchy)

I'm displeased cause I own a x800xt which runs all my games fine. I know that this game "would" have ran on a low to medium setting but that would have been fine. I think that alot of people including myself would have upgraded to an 8600 or 2600 but both ATi and Nvidia let us gamers down with a card that is barely faster than my current one! Yes I want DX 10 but won't spend 125+ bux for a card with so little improvement.

This is another game to scratch off my list. When I do finally upgrade the game will be in gogamer's 48 hour list for $ 7.90 when bioshock could have sold me the game for around 40 bucks. Their loss. My 2 cents

[methylbenzoate]

Yes, I do need a beer considering I dumped $160 on a slower video card :)

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Corona-Beer-Poster-C10031999.jpeg

:)

You think you're mad now though? Next year we'll probably be told SM3 is obsolete and needs to be replaced with SM4.

Head's up :) (Hefeweizen would be nice around now)

Well I apologize for being rude--I thought you were another one of those "lol SM3.0 FTW" people on the boards, and I was wrong. Those ppl really strike a nerve.

As for SM4.0, THAT was the whole reason why I wasn't going to buy a card for awhile. I'm waiting for DX10 gaming to be optimized, and SM4.0 along w/ that. SM3.0 is a pretty negligible upgrade, and isn't worth it if you have a powerful SM2.0 card. But here I am with a slower SM3.0 card (7800GS) so I can play the game. Ugh.[/QUOTE]

The 7800GS is not a bad card.

[pilferk]

The problem with you Pilferk is that youre telling us that nothing can be achieved by this. It shows that you really know very little. Take a little look at the 'ask dev' forums to find that the developers already know of the issue and are seeing if they can resolve it. i.e. the shader issue is already on their tables being discussed.

I've been gaming over 20 years too - the difference between you and me is that you're the sort of guy that just lets things happen. If a game is released and you can't play it, you'll upgrade happily no matter if you just purchased the card a week ago and the develoeprs decided to push forward like this.

You in fact remind me of the rather amusing reference in the original Dawn of the Dead where the zombies mill around aimlessly around a shopping mall. While 2K forums really as I said would love to have their entire buying public like you, these forums seem to indicate anything but. Im surprised youre not defending the secure installation issue either. For you whatever the devs do, you'll upgrade or not buy. Ill wager its always the first though.

My last comments here:

I saw the dev thread. Looks like lip service to me. But that's just MHO. We'll see. I doubt it was the *****ing and whining that did it. Again, *****ing and whining (not talking about.....the *****ing about) accomplishes zero.

The march of tech is pretty much unstoppable. If not Bioshock, then some other game in 3 or 4 months. Whining about the inevitable seems pointless. Buy or don't buy. It's a game.

As for the rest, you'd be wrong...very wrong. Usually, I choose to just not buy the game. I certainly didn't "upgrade" this time for Bioshock....it just so happens I built a new system about 3 months ago...and it's not nearly on the bleeding edge. But, working in the industry, maybe it's because I use more rationality, rather than emotion, when looking at my choices.

Let me know where, and when, I can collect my winnings. A beer will do fine.

[pilferk]

You're right... but you're suggesting the X8* series is obselete. The whole point is that it's not. Unreal Tournament 3 (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=%22Unreal+Tournament+3%22&svnum=30&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB177GB229&sa=N&imgsz=xxlarge) and Crysis (http://images.google.co.uk/images?imgsz=xxlarge&svnum=30&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB177GB229&q=%22crysis%22&btnG=Search+Images) will run on these cards. Why should Bioshock, which debatably won't look as technically good looking, not run?

I don't get why some of you are so against it though. These people want to spend money on Bioshock, but can't.

Because that's what the devs decided. Why? I don't know...ask 'em...see if they'll answer.

But ultimately it's THEIR game. It's not like we're entitled to play it. If 2k has decided to, for whatever reason, leave money on the table....why are people *****ing about it. It's their decision, ultimately, right?

So the consumer is left with the choice: Buy their product (and meet their specs) or don't.

[pilferk]

IT means absolute jack with regards to SM3.0. IT people don't program, IT people don't need to know anything about GPU architecture. And yes, explain pray tell how an Ivy League institution will need SM3.0 for its library computers? Your day job of rebooting Pentium 3s in some computer lab so some student can print out his thesis means nothing.

1) IT = Sr. System Programmer/Analyst....Medical Info and Tech Coordinator. Still under the IT umbrella around here.

2) Library? How about Medical Imaging. Please.....don't comment when you have no clue what you're talking about.

4) I haven't done desktop support type stuff since High School. That would be about 15 years ago, or so.

Face the facts that SOME people might actually know more than you....both from a tech perspective AND a business perspective. Try addressing the issue and not engaging in pointless, baseless, unfounded ad hominem attacks.

[pilferk]

And on that note, now that I've responded to those that responded to me AFTER I said I was leaving, I leave you all to your "discussion".

Crack open a cold one......I'm going to get some work done, and then head to Rapture!

[fruitloops]

C'mon people. I owe a x800 card myself but I ain't *****ing either. This is seriously whining of all you people. There are even more games that require 3.0 or better.

Just buy a new card already and don't start with oh but I have an agp card as there are plenty agp cards with 3.0 capabilities. Seriously all these threads are born to end up like whining little kids. I don't buy the game because of this but if you have already then you are a real idiot by not reading the systemrequirements. And 2k owe's you nothing. Its their product and they may decide what to support and what not. Its not like its OUR dessision Sjeez :rolleyes:

[sniggles]

Hi fellow gamers,

I unfortunately have a Radeon X800 XL graphics card and i am glad for all of you Nvidia owners that can play this game but do feel strongly that a lot of owners of my card and it's variants have been completely ripped off and conned!

I am a mature gamer with over 20 years of playing around with PC's and i know my system specs and game requirements inside out.

The BIG point no one seems to be mentioning is that i did fully research the system requirements for this game and the Radeon X800 graphics card is listed everywhere as a fully supported card for this game.

Since it was listed as supported, i didn't bother looking into the small print about SM3 or SM2 etc since i assumed the game would be backwards compatable anyway.

AGAIN - the X800 range of cards were listed as supportred so you Nvidia owners must understand how some of us Radeon owners feel.

My game arrive today and just as mentioned in earlier posts and threads - I tried the so-called ATI patch fix (97 MB) but it did absolutely nothing to fix the complete graphical mess that appears at game stsrt up (and no mouse cursor etc)

I have just found an amateur fix someone has made to allow the game to run in SM2 mode but with long load times and some missing textures and i will be trying that out in a moment.

I only hope the Devs care about there customers and those of us that have forked out the money for there product.

PLEASE give us a workaround or patch if at all possible!

[Viz79]

C'mon people. I owe a x800 card myself but I ain't *****ing either. This is seriously whining of all you people. There are even more games that require 3.0 or better.

Just buy a new card already and don't start with oh but I have an agp card as there are plenty agp cards with 3.0 capabilities. Seriously all these threads are born to end up like whining little kids. I don't buy the game because of this but if you have already then you are a real idiot by not reading the systemrequirements. And 2k owe's you nothing. Its their product and they may decide what to support and what not. Its not like its OUR dessision Sjeez :rolleyes:

What exactly are you talking about? Do you know there isnt a single game even announced that is PS 3.0 only except for BIOSHOCK? Do you know Unreal Tournament whose engine this is is going to be 2.0 compatible? Did you know that bloody CRYSIS is 2.0 compatible? Bioshock is the only game that will require an upgrade into 2009! And that seems correct from everyone elses viewpoint because X850XLs own games right now - I run FEAR on full settings and Oblivion on modding settings higher than out of the box.

My card has gone from kicking game ass to being useless for this game only. So no it isnt reasonable appropriate and it is an idiotic decision.

Explain to me again why Crysis and UT devs didnt do the same thing and allowed PS 2.0 compatability? Because they were aware of the later Radeon cards that could handle their game decently but were far too new for customers to upgrade. These idiots however didnt get this and whats worse is some of the other posters seem jsut as dense.

[preacher]

Anyone with an x800 series card can try this game or demo (kind of) simply by deleting or renaming the 2 shadercache files in the game dir. There are lots of textures missing and load times of more than 5 mins but it works. I would suggest renaming the files by putting a 1 at the beginning of the filename, just so you don't have to reinstall if they come out with a patch.

[fruitloops]

[QUOTE=Viz79;140764]What exactly are you talking about? Do you know there isnt a single game even announced that is PS 3.0 only except for BIOSHOCK? QUOTE]DUDE RAINBOW SIX VEGAS AND A SPLINTERCELL GAME DUNNMO WHICH VERSION!

GET YOUR STUPID FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU ASK ME IF I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! :mad:

[preacher]

*bump* this thread is funny, please continue!!

[algarrut]

This kind of situation is sad cause it's the prove that PC gaming is becoming "exclusive" for hardcore gamers. There are a lot of people there that doesn't know much of computer specs and this "shader" problem doesn't help the PC games industry, that videocard (MY videocard lol) it's far from obsolete and we're talking about a supposed big-selling viodegame.
Playing games should be easy.
Well there's my opinion. I'm not whining I just won't buy the game.

[Viz79]

[QUOTE=Viz79;140764]What exactly are you talking about? Do you know there isnt a single game even announced that is PS 3.0 only except for BIOSHOCK? QUOTE]DUDE RAINBOW SIX VEGAS AND A SPLINTERCELL GAME DUNNMO WHICH VERSION!

GET YOUR STUPID FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU ASK ME IF I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! :mad:

Both games have been patched to 2.0 once developers knew the demand. Jeez, honestly, why do you people post when you have no clue?

[Sprawl]

I've said it before.

I'll say it agian for the guy who doesnt want to read ANY OTHER THREAD IN EXISTANCE


SM2 came out over 6 years ago. It is now 2 generations behind current. SM3, released in 2005 by Microsoft to the public, Was first in a card as early as 2004 by NVIDIA (6xxx). ATI Was slow and over 2 years late getting their SM3 card to market (2006 w x1xxx series). SM4 is now the current generation (NV8xxx and ATI 2xxx)

In Summation of my Summation. 2k programmed the game for the Current Generation (SM4) and Previous (SM3) generation of cards. They made the decision that to acheive the graphics they intended, this would be their cutoff. SM2 being +2 generations old now is a dying Technology. NO new SM2 cards are being sold. SM2 market is shrinking with more and more cards being replaced.

Guess what. Tough ****. because you havn't upgraded your computer in 2+ years isn't their problem. the High End Gaming community isn't going to wait for you to catch up


And for your note. if you're that desperate, Go buy a 7300 for $50 bucks

[algarrut]

50 bucks it's a lot of food man lol.

[Sprawl]

the game is $50

if $50 is going to be the difference between eating and starving

Playing video games and your video card should be the last thing on your mind

****ing priorities

[ReverendTed]

For the record, X800 users now have an acceptable solution for running Bioshock with nearly all features intact, and almost none of the graphical artifacts present in earlier fixes. The only major downside is the increased level load times.

[ Asankel Fix v3 (http://www.paolofranchini.com/shshock/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53) ]
(Be sure to check the Project Summary thread on the ShaderShock forums to find out about the latest releases.)

It's not perfect yet, but the entire demo plays front to back with no white\missing textures to distract from the experience. I only have the demo, so I can't vouch for the rest of the retail game, but preliminary reports from the field are very promising in this regard.

[hellbound]

wow i love that...2k is inefficiently to create an patch like that guys done ?
If it is like that so that foolish Game could go to hell....well i heard 2k is being working on such patch...but i guess their just sitting around and smelling cocaine and have no idea how to start that.
Well...respect to that Guys who ve done it !

[mike-]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.

no you can't, this isn't the first game to support 3.0 only

[mwinter77]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K


You really are dumb - they didn't assume anything - they made it a REQUIREMENT clearly stated on the box in the - now get this - requirements section

[leary]

Its too bad that your X800 won't play the game but as mentioned by others....you'd should have known it. You can lay blame on other problems on 2K but not this one. If you can't afford a upgrade and you paid for the game then just take it back for a refund.

As for the

[ReverendTed]

Again, I reiterate in response to leary's post:For the record, X800 users now have an acceptable solution for running Bioshock with nearly all features intact, and almost none of the graphical artifacts present in earlier fixes. The only major downside is the increased level load times.

[ Asankel Fix v3 (http://www.paolofranchini.com/shshock/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53) ]
(Be sure to check the Project Summary thread on the ShaderShock forums to find out about the latest releases.)

It's not perfect yet, but the entire demo plays front to back with no white\missing textures to distract from the experience. I only have the demo, so I can't vouch for the rest of the retail game, but preliminary reports from the field are very promising in this regard.

[ShaderWilly]

Today i got Bioshock (I love the daddy figurine...)

I have 2 systems in reach:

My Notebook from work: (brand new)
DualCore T7200 2GHz
1GB 667
ATI X1600 256 MB DDR3

and my PC at home:
AMD 2600+ OC3000+
ATI X800XT 256MB
1 GB Corsair XMS375 5-2-2-2 @170MHz DDR2
ASUS NForce2 Deluxe

Which one is faster?
In most aspects my home pc is twice as fast.
Especially gaming wise...

But i barely use that: PC games nowadays are mostly buggy eye candy without ideas.
I use the PC for simulations and hardcore strategy.
As an old school gamer (Since 1981) i love "special" games so i more and more go over to consoles because the revolutions in gaming (and the magic) happens there (New stories, new game principles, games as an art form).

But Bioshock is definitely one game i can not leave behind...

Installed on the notebook: Looks good. Runs bad (8-12 frames perhaps? Who cares...).
Installed on my pc. Used the Asankel V3 patch. Got rid of sound bug: Looks not as good as on the notebook but the difference is quite small (so it still looks great!) and runs like "teh ****" (which in this case means great;))
Absolutely no problems til now (Level 4) and i don't suspect any to come... (otherwise the community will solve it.)

So to everyone who says "BUY NU CARD!!!": Your lost! Take of your mums underwear! It's about REAL values and not shaders!

So thumbs up for Bioshock: It's art!
Thumbs down for 2k: You let customers solve problems on their own and play with dangerous aggressive corporate strategies...
ALL THUMBS UP FOR THE GUYS WHO MADE BIOSHOCK RUN (GREAT) ON SYSTEMS LIKE MINE! Thank you very much, guys!

Regards
Martin

[Viz79]

Yeah the community has almost finished the patch for full support and beautiful results. In a week. Just look at the screenshot comparison, I'd love for people to give me a pepsi test of a 2.0 vs 3.0 comparison.

Yes this game was shipped without 2.0 support even though the game looks just as great with PS 2.0 and the amount of coding are done by the 'community' in such a short period of time. I know that the intelligence of some of the posters on these forums in the anti-2.0 lobby is frighteningly low but surely they can grasp now how idiotic it was for the game to come without 2.0 support, how pathetic it is for 2K not to patch it in immediately after realising the demand (clearly it would have taken them less than a matter of days considering THATS what the community took) and just what they think of the community when they not only not respond to the huge thread of people working on it but not even assist either in questions about the code.

You have to stoop rather low to find a dev just like 2K. One has to wonder just where they managed to pull a diamond like Bioshock out of. Personally Im at a point now where I just want to play Bioshock as it is while trying to wipe from my mind who made it. Real shame that.

[ShaderWilly]

Yeah Viz...

Wish i had native english skills to make my point as clear as yours is.
Totally share your emotions about the game in contrast to the team.
After Half-Life 2 and Steam and stuff i swore i won't let that happen again...
I don't want to talk about that...:D

[Twinsen]

You really are dumb - they didn't assume anything - they made it a REQUIREMENT clearly stated on the box in the - now get this - requirements section
You're a liar. You're lying. That is a lie. Enjoy life lying as a lying liar that lies and tells lyish lies.

For the record, X800 users now have an acceptable solution for running Bioshock with nearly all features intact, and almost none of the graphical artifacts present in earlier fixes. The only major downside is the increased level load times.

[ Asankel Fix v3 (http://www.paolofranchini.com/shshock/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53) ]
(Be sure to check the Project Summary thread on the ShaderShock forums to find out about the latest releases.)

It's not perfect yet, but the entire demo plays front to back with no white\missing textures to distract from the experience. I only have the demo, so I can't vouch for the rest of the retail game, but preliminary reports from the field are very promising in this regard.
Follow the link here to get a patch to make the game work on your x800 and x850 series cards with pretty decent results. I haven't done it, because I've been thoroughly angered by 2K at this point.

[AC!D]

**** TELL ME i have a X850PEXT LIKE THE BEST VERSION cost me $280 and it dosn't ****ing work on it either NO CURSOR AND NOT VISUAL EFFECT INGAME ITS TOTALY ****ED!

[GoldenyearsNursinghome]

Euhm they make what they want, you buy what you want.. what's the problem?

[Twinsen]

Euhm they make what they want, you buy what you want.. what's the problem?
No problem. OH NO WAIT, the problem is that they didn't tell anybody this.

[Azumi]

I was wondering, right now I am running a x800 card that I bought maybe 2-3 years ago, so I know it's out of date.. I understand BioShock doesn't support this card, so I went out a grabbed a 8800GTS, now, this card should be plenty more powerful than the x800, right?

Keep in mind, I would have went with the GTX, but I had to also upgrade my Mobo, Memory, PSU, and Processor (All total, 5 items costs me more than $1000 CND.)

I'm basically aiming for BioShock/Crysis/Fallout 3, etc. The "next gen" pc games, I guess. The stuff I'm buying is:

Video Card:
http://www.ncixus.com/products/2268...2-N811-AR/eVGA/

Memory:
http://www.ncixus.com/products/19337/OCZ2P800R22GK/OCZ%20Technology/

PSU:
http://www.ncixus.com/products/19831/CMPSU-620HX/CORSAIR/

Processor:
http://www.ncixus.com/products/22211/BX80562Q6600/Intel/

Motherboard:
http://www.ncixus.com/products/23215/122-CK-NF68-A1/eVGA/

Am I alright with this stuff? I'm primarily a gamer, but I haven't upgraded in awhile, so I'm way behind on basically everything.

[Hadrian]

Simple answer= The 8800gts pwns the X800 hard ( and nearly everything else on the market to ). Enjoy your new card & comp , and I hope you get BioShock up and running :D

[TurdFergasun]

what a tool ^^^ of course, thats like saying my corvette pwns your civic because your tires are suddenly incompatible with this new type of freeway tarmac. you're a joke, I hope you get SARS.

[ReverendTed]

what a tool ^^^ of course, thats like saying my corvette pwns your civic because your tires are suddenly incompatible with this new type of freeway tarmac. you're a joke, I hope you get SARS.I think you goofed up your analogy, there.
Personally, I'm rather proud of mine (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=176657).