Tommy's rank in Mafia 1

[glesson]

Okay, in the prologue in Mafia 1 when Tommy is talking with Norman he says he is a high ranking member of the Salieri crime family. But in the entire game i don't remember to be any information what Tommy position really was or the positions of Paulie or Sam... We know that Frank was the don's consigliere but we don't know anything other about the structure. I mean underboss, capos, soldiers. I think we saw too few people in the whole game. I hope Mafia II will have more info like this. :)

[PG1]

It's never mentioned in the game, and to be honest the game doesn't present any kind of structure like that. Salieri's the boss and Frank's the Consiglieri, that's it. At a stretch Paulie and Tommy were probably capo's by the end of it. I don't imagine that Sam was a capo as he looks like he has Irish blood in him.

However if his roots were in sicily then I'd think he and Tommy would be Capo's. Salieri would be less likely to make Paulie a capo if he had Sam, Paulie's too hot headed.

So yeah, I'd say that Tommy was probably made after "killing" Frank and made a capo after killing Morello.

Interesting thought though, because the game never mentions it. Perhaps Salieri never set up any traditional structure at all and just gave direct orders to those he trusted.

[vaults]

Heres a little problem.
In Mafia 1 you do have a really strong relationship with the characters. And this is mainly because you go through hell with the same guys over and over again and you just get this feeling that these guys really are more than just a team, they sort of become your friends.

If you now introduce too many people (I really hate to make this referencelike in GTA ,you will never be able to get that certain connection going. And that would be a really sad thing.

The developers have to find the right balance between not too many characters, so that you will still be able to identify with the people, and a certain variety of different characters you eventually stumble across in the game.
I guess this was really hard to do :D

[glesson]

Well, i read somewhere that Joe is going to be with Vito during most of the missions, so there is a good connection with a character. :)

GTA IV except Roman I think I didn't cared that much for any of the characters. Brucie and Jacob were funny, but that's it.

As for Tommy in Mafia 1 I think that he was something like an enforcer to the family and not a capo and Sam was a soldier with the same functions. Maybe Paulie was a capo, because from the three he was giving the orders ( in trip to the country, molotov party, the bank heist)

[Susu986]

Well, i read somewhere that Joe is going to be with Vito during most of the missions, so there is a good connection with a character. :)

GTA IV except Roman I think I didn't cared that much for any of the characters. Brucie and Jacob were funny, but that's it.

As for Tommy in Mafia 1 I think that he was something like an enforcer to the family and not a capo and Sam was a soldier with the same functions. Maybe Paulie was a capo, because from the three he was giving the orders ( in trip to the country, molotov party, the bank heist)

Yeah, he did. I don't know how people were under a capo in the real sicilian mafia.

But anyway, when he sad, he held a high position in a "not so legal organization" he meant, that he knew a lot of inside information, which simple hitmen didn't.

[Hatesink]

SPOILERS AHEAD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia#Structure_and_composition

In my experience I've found that fiction is generally condensed and compressed reality, and in light of that, my interpretation:

Boss: Salieri
Consigliere: Frank

Without looking at it too closely I'd say Paulie and Sam were at some point Caporegimes (because they took their orders about Salieri's more important business directily from Salieri) but possibly began the story as favoured 'Soldiers' who made Tommy an 'Associate' when they gave him money to pay for damages to the cab, making the meeting where Paulie introduced Tommy to Salieri probably more of an informal vetting where Tommy becomes a soldier...

...At first Tommy takes his orders from Paulie. Later on, after Tommy's marriage, which probably had Salieri's blessing and probably raised Tommy's status in the organisation, Paulie and Tommy's conversation seems to suggest they don't spend as much time together as they once might have and all three and only those three (not counting Frank) sit around Salieri's table and discuss what seem to be Salieri's biggest problem, namely Morello, all of which might suggest they've all three risen to the rank of Caporegime.

As the game goes on, the characters' attitudes towards each other lead me to believe that it's Sam who Salieri might be grooming for the position of Underboss, which could have causes Paulie to feel disenfranchised enough to take on work on the side, which ultimately results in his death at Sam's hands (possibly securing Sam's position as Underboss).

At least that's how it seems to me that the story could map to the known hierarchy.

[Susu986]

SPOILERS AHEAD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia#Structure_and_composition

In my experience I've found that fiction is generally condensed and compressed reality, and in light of that, my interpretation:

Boss: Salieri
Consigliere: Frank

Without looking at it too closely I'd say Paulie and Sam were at some point Caporegimes (because they took their orders about Salieri's more important business directily from Salieri) but possibly began the story as favoured 'Soldiers' who made Tommy an 'Associate' when they gave him money to pay for damages to the cab, making the meeting where Paulie introduced Tommy to Salieri probably more of an informal vetting where Tommy becomes a soldier...

...At first Tommy takes his orders from Paulie. Later on, after Tommy's marriage, which probably had Salieri's blessing and probably raised Tommy's status in the organisation, Paulie and Tommy's conversation seems to suggest they don't spend as much time together as they once might have and all three and only those three (not counting Frank) sit around Salieri's table and discuss what seem to be Salieri's biggest problem, namely Morello, all of which might suggest they've all three risen to the rank of Caporegime.

As the game goes on, the characters' attitudes towards each other lead me to believe that it's Sam who Salieri might be grooming for the position of Underboss, which could have causes Paulie to feel disenfranchised enough to take on work on the side, which ultimately results in his death at Sam's hands (possibly securing Sam's position as Underboss).

At least that's how it seems to me that the story could map to the known hierarchy.

Congrats! That's very well done! :) Really!
The only thing I'm not sure is namely the fact that Tommy was american. And I don't know whether there's a criteria which is: only real sicilian people with sicilian parents and grandparents can be a caporegime.
As we seen in Goodfellas, Henry Hill wanted to be a made man, but since he was american, it was not permitted to him.
On the other hand, in Godfather, Tom Hagen was consigliere, and he was Irish. So...

[Hatesink]

@sasu986: thanks :-)

To be honest with you I don't really know too much about the finer points (I've not seen that many gangster movies). I saw Angels With Dirty Faces about a month ago :p but other than that, apart from Scarface, Carlito's Way and Sonatine, I've not really seen that many.

I watched the Godfather when I was kid but I didn't really appreciate it. I keep meaning to pick up a copy to take another look at it.

[Dsmooth16]

Congrats! That's very well done! :) Really!
The only thing I'm not sure is namely the fact that Tommy was american. And I don't know whether there's a criteria which is: only real sicilian people with sicilian parents and grandparents can be a caporegime.
As we seen in Goodfellas, Henry Hill wanted to be a made man, but since he was american, it was not permitted to him.
On the other hand, in Godfather, Tom Hagen was consigliere, and he was Irish. So...
henry was half irish and half italian that's why he didn't become made not because he was from america

[Max"The Ripper"]

Heres a little problem.
In Mafia 1 you do have a really strong relationship with the characters. And this is mainly because you go through hell with the same guys over and over again and you just get this feeling that these guys really are more than just a team, they sort of become your friends.


I couldn't agree more!

I actually knew every character in Mafia by name as I knew the map like I know my own neighborhood and how i knew the names of MOST of the cars.
Thats one thing I liked about Mafia it was so personal.

[Tetref]

i think, that in M2 will be few characters (Joe, Vito´s sister, Vito´s girl, Henry, Eddie, don, arms dealer) that will be really very detailed and we will get in strong relationship with them...and some supporting characters that would be changing and dying in the story (like Fat Biff,Morello bros., City Major etc. in first game)

[Dsmooth16]

i think, that in M2 will be few characters (Joe, Vito´s sister, Vito´s girl, Henry, Eddie, don, arms dealer) that will be really very detailed and we will get in strong relationship with them...and some supporting characters that would be changing and dying in the story (like Fat Biff,Morello bros., City Major etc. in first game)

there would be way more characters then that,remember it's 3 families so expect alot of blood shed

[spark6665]

Congrats! That's very well done! :) Really!
The only thing I'm not sure is namely the fact that Tommy was american. And I don't know whether there's a criteria which is: only real sicilian people with sicilian parents and grandparents can be a caporegime.
As we seen in Goodfellas, Henry Hill wanted to be a made man, but since he was american, it was not permitted to him.
On the other hand, in Godfather, Tom Hagen was consigliere, and he was Irish. So...

I really think that the decision weather to have a consigliere from true sicilian blood or not, is the don`s. Now, i know the families had a connection with each other with all that ,,just business, nothing personal,, crap, and yes, they did play by the rules, but i don`t think that THIS particular one was a Cosa Nostra law... just a family decision. ;)

[Frankie Yale]

On the other hand, in Godfather, Tom Hagen was consigliere, and he was Irish. So...
Frankly, The Godfather was quite inaccurate and should not be used as a guide. Although it is a great story and very entertaining, the movie/novel does not accurately depict the American Mafia. In 1940s America, you could not appoint a German/Irish orphan like Tom Hagen as your Sicilian consigliere. Mario Puzo took many artistic liberties when crafting the plot of The Godfather.

[bugsy]

I would say Tommy was a capo. i think i heard somewhere that their are over 100 people in mafia 2 that speak

[brynje]

Tommy was IMO just a soldier in the majority of M1 (:

[Mafioso]

"Tommy was IMO just a soldier in the majority of M1 (:"

Yeah but Tommy was capo long enough to know important information about Salieri crime family. A simple soldier at that time wouldnt have the info to put Salieri behind bars. :rolleyes: The structure of saleris crime family reminds me more of the chicago outfit where ranks, ethnic background wasnt that important to rise to the top. compared to Cosa Nostras ethnic based mafia hierarchy with don, consigilerre, underboss, capos, soldiers and associates.

And if im not wrong wasnt lost Heaven, a blend of Chicago and Newyork.

I just hope that Mafia 2 as a realistic mafia game will be full elements that make the Mafia more than just simple gangsters such as "the myth" of men of respect, the honored society, omerta etc. Real old school mafiosos as Joe Bonnao, Carlo Gambino. :D (without this is just a gangster game, not a true mafia game).

Henrys talk in the buzzsaw trailer about his father beeing a man of honor is a god sign of this beeing the case. Im crossing my fingers :). I would love to a scene of Vitos mafia initiation seeing him giving the oath to the family. With 2k czech talent that scene would be magic.

[Mafioso]

[QUOTE=Olympus21;532051]The only thing I'm not sure is namely the fact that Tommy was american. And I don't know whether there's a criteria which is: only real sicilian people with sicilian parents and grandparents can be a caporegime.
As we seen in Goodfellas, Henry Hill wanted to be a made man, but since he was american, it was not permitted to him.

His name is Tommy angelo so his parents is most likely italians. and Tommy self is"italian" american. What part of Italy he/his parents are from is from is unknown.

The sicilian connection was more a big deal before lucky luciano with old time bosses like salvatore maranzano. Just look at Frank Costello "Prime Minister of the Underworld" was consigilerre and Boss and he was from Calabria not Sicily. :)

[Dsmooth16]

henry was half irish that's why he couldn't become made,not because he was from america,john gotti was boss of a family and i think he was from NY and Vincent "The Chin" Gigante

[Gamba]

I think some of you guys are leaving out some important information here. The thing is that in the American Mafia you just have to be Italian, which includes being Sicilian of course. In Sicily there is what is called the Sicilian Mafia which specifically requires you to be Sicilian. A man with mixed blood (like Tom Hagen) for example can only reach the rank of Associate. But as we all know: Tom Hagen was a consigliere. Well I've read that a Consigliere, sometimes, doesn't even have to be a made man, but could be a lawyer, which is the case with Tom Hagen. What was unrealistic about the Godfather was that most of the Corleone family members were blood related (this goes for the other four families aswell), which isn't exactly common in today's Mafia and I bet it wasn't in the 30's and 40's neither. But I agree that Coppola did this on purpose to make the conflicts between the five families more personal and understandable to the public.

Lastly, to become a Capo you would have to become a Soldier (made man) first. Nobody gets made into a family and then is promoted to captain just like that. To become promoted you have to show that you are loyal and that you can make more money than anybody else, so that the boss will notice you (Christopher's promotion to soldier is a good example of this, The Sopranos).

Also I think that its really not important what rank Tommy had and it's obvious that the dev's didn't put much weight on parts like hierarchy and instead they focused on making the characters lovable or whatever. I didn't even take notice of the whole hierarchy thing until I played the game through for like the 8th time or something, so in my opinion they did it brilliantly without this detail or whatever you want to call it.

[Mafioso]

Yes Mafia 1 was one of the best game ever, story, graphic, gamedesign, environment. But it was more a great gangster game than a mafia game beacuse we never got the cosa nostra details.

Gamba you wrote. "Also I think that its really not important what rank Tommy had and it's obvious that the dev's didn't put much weight on parts like hierarchy and instead they focused on making the characters lovable or whatever"

My question is, why not have both the rank of tommy/vito, mafia hierarchy and focus on making the characters lovable. It would have made the game even better not f... up it up. And if these details wasnt important why does it seem that 2k czech has payd more attention to this details i Mafia 2. The answer is of course that is creates more depth and realism to the game.

And If you are interested or fascinated by the Mafia/cosa nostra is only natural that you want as much as possible included of this in a game that is about the MAFIA, if thats not the case they should have named the game GANGSTER. ;)

[Frankie Yale]

Yes Mafia 1 was one of the best game ever, story, graphic, gamedesign, environment. But it was more a great gangster game than a mafia game because we never got the cosa nostra details.

[...]

And If you are interested or fascinated by the Mafia/cosa nostra is only natural that you want as much as possible included of this in a game that is about the MAFIA, if thats not the case they should have named the game GANGSTER.
I noticed that too, and I agree. It was quite odd that Illusion Softworks chose not to show Tommy Angelo becoming "a made man" or any other "Cosa Nostra" rituals. The storyline tended to ignore such details. Although I love Mafia I, the game definitely was more of a gangster game than a mafia game.

I hope this problem is corrected in Mafia II. I would like to see Vito Scaletta go through the rite of initiation and other mafia shenanigans. It would create more depth to the game.

[Gamba]

Yes Mafia 1 was one of the best game ever, story, graphic, gamedesign, environment. But it was more a great gangster game than a mafia game beacuse we never got the cosa nostra details.

Gamba you wrote. "Also I think that its really not important what rank Tommy had and it's obvious that the dev's didn't put much weight on parts like hierarchy and instead they focused on making the characters lovable or whatever"

My question is, why not have both the rank of tommy/vito, mafia hierarchy and focus on making the characters lovable. It would have made the game even better not f... up it up. And if these details wasnt important why does it seem that 2k czech has payd more attention to this details i Mafia 2. The answer is of course that is creates more depth and realism to the game.

And If you are interested or fascinated by the Mafia/cosa nostra is only natural that you want as much as possible included of this in a game that is about the MAFIA, if thats not the case they should have named the game GANGSTER. ;)

Just to point out a few things. I am very interested in the mafia and its history and of course I know that adding a hierarchy clearly visible to the player would add a certain amount of realism, which I think is good. I never said I liked (or disliked for that matter) the fact that such a hierarchy was missing from Mafia, I just wrote what I thought that the devs had in mind when making the game. They wanted to make a movie-like game of sorts. Well there aren't many mob movies out there that covers the hierarchy that much. Goodfellas, Casino, Mean Streets, Donnie Brasco etc. you only get to know the rank of maybe 1-3 people in these movies, but you dont mind because they are great movies (get my point?). One very good example of this is Donnie Brasco, where you get the feeling that Sonny Black is actually the Don of a whole family, but really he is just a Caporegime. But this is too much detail for the public and it gets really hard to figure this out since they all say "Here is the Boss!", when the Caporegime arrives to their social club.

But to get back to Mafia I, I think I should say my piece about the hierachy. I think it's very hard to know exactly what rank Tommy, Paulie and Sam had at any point in the game. But we do know that Salieri is the Boss and that Frank is his consigliere, which we find out early in the game. But it seems like Tommy, Paulie and Sam all become equals during some point in the game. But I still find the beginning of the game weird when they are all sitting down at a table discussing business and Tom isn't even a made man yet, but Paulie and Sam are. Normally a boss would talk to just Paulie OR Sam and then that person would go to Tommy and tell him what to do. This is what is called buffering, so that the Boss isolates himself from as much contact with his lower ranked guys as possible (so they can't name him in court, since they got their orders from their Caporegime or whatever). If however a Caporegime was to become an informant then the boss would be in far more trouble than before, which is why only guys that the boss trusts become promoted.

To sum this post up: I think that adding a hierarchy to Mafia II would improve this franchise ALOT. But I think that we already know that they have done this, no?

[YuDoktor]

Okay, in the prologue in Mafia 1 when Tommy is talking with Norman he says he is a high ranking member of the Salieri crime family. But in the entire game i don't remember to be any information what Tommy position really was or the positions of Paulie or Sam... We know that Frank was the don's consigliere but we don't know anything other about the structure. I mean underboss, capos, soldiers. I think we saw too few people in the whole game. I hope Mafia II will have more info like this. :)

Yes but don Salieri always say to tommy that his best or something like that!
And you can see that everything tommy do because his best!