What made Fontaine so evil?

[Poe]

I'm still a little fuzzy on the details. What would Fontaine do if he won the war?

[Zvriel Chkies]

Conquest! Become a warlord. Invade the world and establish new Raptures to harvest the sea slug.

Make cites to rule with on all levels.

[Venom Wolf]

He wanted to take plasmids to the surface.

I don't know what made Fontaine so evil.....over at Bioshock wiki they say his is a rags to riches story.

Tough childhood perhaps?

[Zombie Sniper]

Hungry for power. The only reason he wanted control of Rapture was to return to the surface and harness plasmids there.

[ATLAS IS WATCHING]

I'm still a little fuzzy on the details. What would Fontaine do if he won the war?

fontaine was hungry for power, he was a mob dealer and he wanted to own the industry and take over rapture..

[ImAGoodGirl]

He's a psycho mob lord.

[gbpackers25]

i think greed made him evil

[BioShock Freak]

He was starving for power, was greedy, and just wanted to be on top. ADAM was more than just currency, it was a form of power. Money makes you rich, but if there's something better than money that won't just make you rich, but powerful, then that's something a lot of people would kill for if they're extremely greedy like he was.
~Mari.

[Would_You_Kindly?]

Fontaine wasn't really evil, he was just power-hungry. I think that's another thing that's so cool about Bioshock; nobody is evil, they all have reasons for doing these horrendous things. Be it anything from madness, to greed, nobody can be pure evil.

[Atlas.]

Fontaine wasn't really evil, he was just power-hungry. I think that's another thing that's so cool about Bioshock; nobody is evil, they all have reasons for doing these horrendous things. Be it anything from madness, to greed, nobody can be pure evil.
Yeah i agree. I wouldnt say he was evil, he just went after what he wanted and would do anything to get it no matter what stood in his way. His goal in the end was to remove Ryan and take control of Rapture. He just wanted power and control. He may have been a bit greedy but he was successful through his own rights with his businesses so in a way he earned it (minus the fact that most of his businesses were covers for what he was really doing..)

Ryan was the same really. When he saw Fontaine become a threat to his power he started doing the things he did, introducing capital punishment etc. Ryan turned with the threat to his power and control from Fontaine and Fontaine himself wanted that control from him. Frank may have started it in the first place by becoming a threat but it still showed that Ryan had that in him himself and what he would do to stay in control... So yeah i wouldnt say Fontaine was evil, just power hungry, wanting control and some greed in there too ;)

[Zvriel Chkies]

Biopshock is good how it does not have the silly thing in more modern films and tv.

A reason to excuse or explain the actions of villains.

It is like they cannot stand a villain is bad because that is how they are.

Bioshock is happily free of that silly trend.

What is wrong with a villain being bad just because they are.

Back on topic.

Frank Fontaine is a very clever and evil man.

Very determined.

[AjaxDeo]

but the turn of events at the end made this game a real shocker.....simply loved the end!!

but the thing that made me hit my head was like when you realized that he uses the phrase ''would you kindly'' to force you to complete those tasks that he had in mind for you,but on the other side you are forced even more to do those tasks because you want to complete the game!!!SO THINGS JUST CLICKED TOGETHER!!

[JimmyTheCannon]

If you don't think Fontaine is evil, look at Jack.

What he did to Jack isn't evil?

[AjaxDeo]

If you don't think Fontaine is evil, look at Jack.

What he did to Jack isn't evil?

well fontaine used jack just to get to his ambitions and didn't count jack in.maybe that isn't evil but it's pretty selfish!!!

[JimmyTheCannon]

I'm putting this in spoiler tags because it's basically the plot of the game...

He had Jack specifically engineered to be his little slave, with the intention of forcing him to kill his own father... and after Ryan was dead, Fontaine attempted to simply dispose of Jack like last week's garbage. When that failed, he ordered Jack to commit suicide, essentally. And when *that* failed, he ordered Jack's body to fail. On top of that, he's a killer - he murdered Diane McClintock because she *might* have realized, from hearing him talk in private, that Atlas was Fontaine.

I'd call that evil.

[Zvriel Chkies]

In terms of a smart leader whether he is good or bad, Fontaine is smart.
He obviously did not see Jack as more than a soldier to be used and removed before he got dangerous or turned on him.
Maybe if he had not tried to kill him he would not have failed.

[NGSoftwork]

Excuse me....Jack is the PG' Name?
Anyway i guess that Fontaine just want the power in a world, created by Ryan, where the power is everything!
The ADAM is a power's expression....just what i thing, nothing more, nothing less.
I think Fontaine first was a traid man, than, fed up of Ryan rules, he decides to bring in more and more power, in the end he has to kill Ryan: The Player is the key for that!

[heavenspawn]

I don't think Fontaine is so much evil as he is a person of opportunity. Frank saw Rapture was a great place to begin his business and when that wasn't enough he went to smuggling.He sees an opportunity and takes it as when he invested in the first Adam research with Tenenbaum. although at the end of the first Bioshock Frank did seem to be really sad at Jack's betrayal.

[JimmyTheCannon]

He was playing Jack. Fontaine is a con man... most of the emotions displayed by him are probably fake, except for perhaps amusement (when he's cackling and telling you you done good, boyo...) and rage.

From what I saw, he didn't even see Jack as a person - rather, as a tool. A means to an end, and no more. If you reduce a human being's life to that level, you're pretty much evil, I'd say.

Viewing someone as a soldier in your cause is entirely different.

[thrall23]

just went crazy thats all he is.

[Zvriel Chkies]

When you make a soldier for one purpose it is business. The soldiers feelings would not bother the evil and ruthless Fontaine. Any more than he would care what the BD and LS think or feel.
I never said he was not evil. But evil or not he is smart.
And in terms of a plan like his you would not have to care.
Just know when to kill and when to keep someone alive. When to judge your battles.
He never goes after Tenenbaum just Ryan.
I get the feeling he might have felt a little bit for Jack, In his own warped way.
He did not need to say some of those things. Some sound like he is hiding any regret he might feel under bluster.

He is slightly insane after all. He might be hiding his feelings from himself. However small they are.

[Venom Wolf]

In my opinion, Ryan and Fontaine were as bad as each other. Neither of them, for example, halted the production of Little Sisters even though it was inhumane.

Tenenbaum is the only one who tries to redeem herself.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Of course he's smart. It was a brilliant plan.

[Oreotiger]

He was ambitious. A crazy world forms crazy people. He was a success,but as much so as the local drug leader is. He was ambitious in all the wrong ways'.

Take Andrew Ryan for example,he was ambitious too. He didnt want to have to kill people off,and build a city of infected mutants,but that's what happened,therefore,his ambitious was in the best interest of the city(nothing else really could've been done).

Fontaine just wanted drug spread,wealth,and absolute control over other's freedoms,using fear to gain them over.

[Oreotiger]

Sure,Ryan and Fontaine both fought the same way,but their ends were entirely different. If ryan won,the city would've prevailed. If fontaine won, only Fontaine would've prevailed.

[Sea of Love]

Like it's been said, I couldn't call anybody in Bioshock simply 'evil'. They're all too complicated for that. I suppose you could call Fontaine....immoral, perhaps?

He was playing Jack. Fontaine is a con man... most of the emotions displayed by him are probably fake, except for perhaps amusement (when he's cackling and telling you you done good, boyo...) and rage.

Personally, I wouldn't go that far. Towards the end, after he's revealed his identity and has discovered that Jack has unexpectedly outlived his expiration date, things get a little interesting.

As he neared his end (in other words, as Jack closed in) Ryan was nearly screaming and gibbering with threats and insults. A last ditch effort out of fear and desperation to scare Jack away, because it's by that point that he's realized this kid is not going to be stopped, which is what he expected of a 'parasite'.

Ironically, Fontaine acts the same way. Upon looking back, you can't really judge your last communications with him as being completely honest. Because he was playing Ryan's game. Trying anything he could think of that might deter Jack, and he had even more reason to be nervous than Ryan did because he'd seen him make it into the lair of the founder of Rapture and come out alive.

[vampristic]

Fontaine wasn't evil, he was just too smart for his own good.

[WinstonZeddemore]

Fontaine is a gangster. If you look at what he's doing, how he manipulates the poor in Rapture to getting behind him and then exploiting them, that's a typical mobster "grass-roots" campaign. Fontaine and Ryan are, essentially, the same person. They're both brilliant, and ruthless businessmen. I think the only point where they differ is that Fontaine is willing to cross lines that even Ryan won't. In one of the radio logs left by Ryan, you can see a glimmer of regret as he looks at what the city has become. And when Jack confronts Ryan, and forgive me if I'm getting the quote wrong, Ryan says, "Once I found out who you were, I couldn't raise a hand to you." Ryan knows at that point that Jack is his son and, even though he knows Jack is there to kill him, does not kill him (knowing the code word to trigger Jack, Ryan could have easily done this). Had it been Fontaine, Fontaine would have told Jack to "Go get stepped on by a Big Daddy right off. They're both bad guys, I just thought Ryan had a more human quality about him.

[JimmyTheCannon]

::shrug:: You've got your opinion, I've got mine.

[AspirationRealized]

Fontaine was the perfect Rapturian citizen. He embodied everything Andrew Ryan wanted from the people who would populate his city.

[MyNameIsJack]

Yeah i agree. I wouldnt say he was evil, he just went after what he wanted and would do anything to get it no matter what stood in his way. His goal in the end was to remove Ryan and take control of Rapture. He just wanted power and control. He may have been a bit greedy but he was successful through his own rights with his businesses so in a way he earned it (minus the fact that most of his businesses were covers for what he was really doing..)

Ryan was the same really. When he saw Fontaine become a threat to his power he started doing the things he did, introducing capital punishment etc. Ryan turned with the threat to his power and control from Fontaine and Fontaine himself wanted that control from him. Frank may have started it in the first place by becoming a threat but it still showed that Ryan had that in him himself and what he would do to stay in control... So yeah i wouldnt say Fontaine was evil, just power hungry, wanting control and some greed in there too ;)

I agree with both of you here. I can't, in a game as complex as BioShock paint anyone with the label of good or evil. I think that's what makes BioShock so great.

If I were to think on Ryan and Fontaine psychologically speaking, I'd say Fontaine sounds as though he was a naturally intelligent person who had a tough upbringing. A virtual "kingpin"-type character who rose from nothing with a ruthless hand, inclined to criminal tendency. Considering a plasmid is more powerful than a gun, it's no surprise he was hoping to become close to a plasmid-God.

Ryan, again, is a naturally intelligent person who was probably philosophically lost amidst the tragedies of the time (i.e. War, onslaught of the Nuclear Era, etc.) and given his resources sought to build his own refuge. His complicated mental state bordering on genius and madness attracted other philosophically lost persons like a moth to a flame. Ryan truly seemed to want paradise, achieving the unattainable by molding a world to his own making but his own God complex ultimately unmade him as no one can have control over every aspect of life, even if he made the world. Free will. I think that drove him over the edge, seeing his utopia ruined by Fontaine. Add his person problems (i.e. relationships, Jack's birth) and it's like the straw that broke the camels back.

That's how I saw it at least.

[WinstonZeddemore]

::shrug:: You've got your opinion, I've got mine.

I agree with you. Fontaine is evil. Ryan's kind of a gray area, but with Fontaine there's no question.

[WinstonZeddemore]

Fontaine was the perfect Rapturian citizen. He embodied everything Andrew Ryan wanted from the people who would populate his city.

I disagree with that. Ryan's belief was that no one is entitled to your work except you. Fontaine took other people's ideas and exploited them. He was the antithesis of what Ryan wanted, which is why, I think anyway, he hates Fontaine so much. Not only is Ryan losing the city, but he's losing it to a "commoner" who doesn't deserve his status in the first place. Ryan, however, inevitably created a guy like Fontaine by making Rapture a society without laws or boundaries.

[AspirationRealized]

I disagree with that. Ryan's belief was that no one is entitled to your work except you. Fontaine took other people's ideas and exploited them. He was the antithesis of what Ryan wanted, which is why, I think anyway, he hates Fontaine so much. Not only is Ryan losing the city, but he's losing it to a "commoner" who doesn't deserve his status in the first place. Ryan, however, inevitably created a guy like Fontaine by making Rapture a society without laws or boundaries.

Hm...

Self interest is the cornerstone of objectivism. Ryan may call Fontaine a parasite but I think everyone uses someone at some point. In a way Fontaine's "work" WAS using others... and as such he did get the rewards of it, by himself.

To say he took other people's ideas an exploited them is a little inaccurate, and even if it isn't I feel it is somewhat moot. Reason being that he invested in Tenenbaum's research; if he hadn't, then there would never have been any ADAM. Everyone else Tenenbaum went to rejected her. Fontaine wasn't using her, or exploiting her ideas; it was a business transaction. Much like the ones Ryan made with Ryan Industries and their specific Plasmids and Tonics. So to call it exploitation, in my opinion, is a little inaccurate and even if it isn't, by that assumption both Fontaine and Ryan exploited ideas.

If you weren't referring to Fontaine Futuristics and were instead alluding to Atlas, I'm pretty sure that entire con was Fontaine's idea. Fontaine didn't really "use" people, not any more than Ryan did. Ryan promised things that obviously never panned out. So did Atlas. People joined the revolution that Atlas spearheaded because it appeased them... much like the reason people came to Rapture when Ryan told them his ideals... seeing a pattern here? The fact that Ryan actually believed what he was saying (which is another debate) and Fontaine was openly conning people, I think, is irrelevant. Actions define people, not intentions.

If I remember correctly Andrew Ryan was at first proud of Fontaine... he never considered him a commoner (Ryan never said anything about "royalty", only that wealth should be earned. Your status makes no difference here. There are parasites in lower and upper class). I think the threat Fontaine posed was more the reason Ryan hated him, not so much that they were philosophically different. They both had the same intentions, Fontaine just hid his better.

So all I'm saying is Fontaine and Ryan are essentially have the same motives, but differ in method. Self interest driven, the both of them.

Also, to add onto what you said by he created Fontaine by having a lawless society, I disagree here as well. I think Ryan facilitated the growth of someone like Fontaine by fostering selfishness and intending for the selfish to succeed. Taking it further, I would also argue that it was the one rule Ryan did have, no smuggling, that allowed Fontaine to get a foot hold when he profited from it (without funds from smuggling Fontaine couldn'tve funded Tenenbaum's research and started Fontaine Futuristics, etc). So it was the one law, not the lawlessness.

((By the way I've argued with people here before and my striking diction can be misread as intentionally offensive. I am having a polite debate here, please don't misread me))

[bob2112]

I hate Fontaine he is anoying.

[WinstonZeddemore]

Nah, I didn't take any of what you were saying as offensive. Nothing wrong in discussing story points, everyone interprets them differently.

Speaking on Fontaine exploiting people's ideas, exploitation is to take advantage of a person or idea and also to abuse it. I think what Fontaine does fits the definition. I agree with you 100% that Ryan does it too. He even reads from the contract he made with Langford before he gases her and claims the trees SHE grew as his. Ryan is a hypocrite, and I think he starts to realize it towards the end. Point is, both of them exploit the people living in Rapture.

About Fontaine being a "commoner," it's true that Ryan doesn't say anything about royalty and he does SAY that class doesn't matter in Rapture. But what he says and what happens ain't exactly similar. There is a clear division in classes despite what the intentions may have been. Peach makes the comment about working his ass off while "Ryan is in Point Promethius banging models." This is how Fontaine gained power in the first place. It's not clear whether or not Ryan looked down on the lower class, but they were definitely far away from his consideration.

Fontaine is the antithesis of what Ryan wanted, not of what Ryan was. Fontaine gained his wealth and power through the ideas and inventions of others. Was he a saavy bussinessman? Sure. Ryan himself alludes to that (though I don't think he was saying that out of admiration so much as he was wary of what Fontaine might be up to). However, all of the ideas or creations such as Tennenbaum's ended up belonging to Fontaine, despite the idea that, in Rapture, no one could own your ideas but you. This is why he calls Fontaine (and Atlas) a parasite. Ryan, of course, has been doing this longer than Fontaine, but, as I said, that was not his intention upon founding Rapture. Ryan probably did this gradually, as it was necessary for him to maintain his control of the city.

In a sense, Ryan became what he built Rapture to escape from. I think he realizes this towards the end of the game, as he sort of laments what the city has become. By the time the power struggle begins with Fontaine, Ryan doesn't care anymore. No one is going to lay claim to the city that Ryan built but Ryan. Ryan was an engineer and designed and bankrolled Rapture. Fontaine comes in later and begins to take control without, really, contributing anything. (Yeah, he funded Tennenbaum's research, but that was so he could use it to his own ends). I think being a good businessman held only so much water with Ryan. In the end, Fontaine really didn't create anything, but ended up with everything. That is the total opposite of Ryan's "principle" regarding his city.

[AspirationRealized]

I still have to disagree, and its all a matter of interpretation.

Ryan created Rapture as a place people could achieve their full potential. To succeed without being hindered by government or religion. Fontaine did this, except he was too successful.

I don't think just because something falls into the vague outstretches of exploitation it really counts. To call his investment in ADAM exploitation is a little extreme, and again if this was exploitation all of Rapture's citizens exploited. No one creates every little thing on their own. Ryan's "Great Chain" which is everyone's influences pushing and pulling eachother can then be misconstrued as exploitation. Sometimes it is mutually beneficial for two people with their own individual interests at heart to cooperate, and this, I feel, is the Rapture way; or at least what was intended for Rapture.

"Andrew Ryan at first observed Fontaine's rise to power as master of Fontaine Futuristics with pride, as the opportunity for determined men to better themselves in this manner was exactly what he built Rapture to make possible."

Thats from the Bioshock wiki. I can't find the particular audio diary that backs this up, and it could be false. I'd have to find the audio diary but it seems legit enough for me.

If Fontaine was a parasite for using Rapture to advance himself, than everyone in Rapture was a parasite. To take Ryan's words at the extreme, a man creates and the parasite asks "where's my share?" Eventually Bioshock becomes a game of creator vs destroyer. So if Ryan is the creator isn't everyone else in Rapture, extremely said, a parasite?

I think Ryan hated Fontaine because he thought he was a parasite (though this was later in the game where parasite meant anything that threatened his control). I don't think it was a matter of lower class. But even if you say Fontaine was a parasite then Ryan inadvertently created a place where parasites can thrive.

You make good points but I'm sticking to my idea that Fontaine followed many of the ideals Ryan set forth for citizens. He obviously misused them but he was just being selfish, which Ryan thought was the best way.

[WinstonZeddemore]

I think Ryan hated Fontaine because he thought he was a parasite (though this was later in the game where parasite meant anything that threatened his control). I don't think it was a matter of lower class. But even if you say Fontaine was a parasite then Ryan inadvertently created a place where parasites can thrive.

I think that's exactly what happened, and what makes the end result of Rapture so ironic. Ryan built the city so that the exceptional people could create without the risk of their creations being taken from them. Ryan makes frequent references to parasites taking, but not creating. I just played through Neptune's bounty again, and I listened to the recordings that Ryan regarding Fontaine, and both were negative. In one he refers to Fontaine as a "most dangerous kind of hoodlum." So, I have to disagree that Ryan admired him.

Fontaine was the kind of person Ryan realized would eventually control Rapture and, in a sense, Fontaine finally did with the dispatch of Ryan. Though Fontaine was a character that Ryan built Rapture to escape from, the nature of Rapture inevitably created Fontaine. It even turned Ryan into what he hated. You make real good points, too. I still believe that Fontaine exploited Rapture, but perhaps manipulative would have been a better word to emphasize my point

[Zvriel Chkies]

I think Fontaine was a bad person who got into a place he was not meant to be.
He could never have got past the screening process as himself.
Ryan wanted the great and the good.
I dought mob bosses were invited.
He probabley got in to Rapture under another name and identity.
Therefore Ryan would not have known he had a viper in the nest.
Fontaine was a master of disquise before Rapture. He was smart and clever when he went there.
Rapture did not create him at all.
He says he spent 6 months as a 'chinaman', the racist that he is.
You do not get that smart and evil by going to a city of freedoms. He was always smart and evil.

[WinstonZeddemore]

I think Fontaine was a bad person who got into a place he was not meant to be.
He could never have got past the screening process as himself.
Ryan wanted the great and the good.
I dought mob bosses were invited.
He probabley got in to Rapture under another name and identity.
Therefore Ryan would not have known he had a viper in the nest.
Fontaine was a master of disquise before Rapture. He was smart and clever when he went there.
Rapture did not create him at all.
He says he spent 6 months as a 'chinaman', the racist that he is.
You do not get that smart and evil by going to a city of freedoms. He was always smart and evil.

I don't think he snuck in, Fontaine served a purpose in the beginning. Sure, the city was designed for the great minds, but someone had to be the janitor, dock worker, fry cook, etc. Fontaine was one of these people, the blue collar workers that even a city like Rapture needs to function. However, the level of impunity under which Ryan allowed his citizens to operate naturally made it possible for someone like Fontaine to take over. That, of course, is the twisted irony of the whole thing. It's a great and complex story.

[AspirationRealized]

Obviously towards the end Ryan didn't admire Fontaine. But to say that in an audio diary he called him a hoodlum doesn't mean he may not have admired him previously. That quote I gave said that Ryan admired him when he started Fontaine Futuristics, but BEFORE he learned he was a criminal. So Ryan admired his progress without knowing who he really was, and so, admired him for a bit.

I think Fontaine was a bad person who got into a place he was not meant to be.
He could never have got past the screening process as himself.
Ryan wanted the great and the good.
I dought mob bosses were invited.
He probabley got in to Rapture under another name and identity.
Therefore Ryan would not have known he had a viper in the nest.
Fontaine was a master of disquise before Rapture. He was smart and clever when he went there.
Rapture did not create him at all.
He says he spent 6 months as a 'chinaman', the racist that he is.
You do not get that smart and evil by going to a city of freedoms. He was always smart and evil.

I never said Rapture "created" Fontaine. I said it made him what he became. Meaning, Rapture was a place someone like Fontaine could thrive.

And Winston's right, he got in under the guise of just a businessman.