Which subgenre of cyberpunk do you prefer?

[Raveness]

The three are the main subgenre’s of cyberpunk, made popular in literature circles and entertainment medium by fathers William Gibson & Philip K Dick :)

Biopunk stories explore themes of individuals or groups, often belonging to a subculture, and their misappropriation of various biotechnologies for subversive ends, against a backdrop of totalitarian governments or megacorporations which abuse these same technologies as means of social control or profiteering. Conversely, in Bioshock’s case, it explores how a society accepts and adapts previous traditions and new ideals to best suit personal endeavors.

The essential gimmick is genetic manipulation of the human physiology & physiognomy for the purpose of making “supermen and women”, backdropped against ideals of improving the natural standard of the race without moral constraints on the whole, usually resulting in a social elite formation.

Topics range from prenatal selection, to enhancement surgery, to RNA manipulation, to stem-cell research.

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Postcyberpunk describes society that has gone through consistent technological change without apprehension stemming from morality or social consequences. Technology has become widely accepted in postcyberpunk, so the stories tend to be more about anarchy, totalitarianism, or other extreme political or personal issues that must be attacked.

Cyberpunk typically deals with alienated loners in a dystopia. Postcyberpunk tends to deal with characters that are more involved with society, and act to defend an existing social order or create a better society. It is less about what changed between our present and the future, and more about a change from the immediate future to a further future. One change, for example, is from metallic implants to biotechnology-enabled body modification or nanomolecular-augmentation.

Poscyberpunk stories take the cybernetics and advanced computer/virtual technology for granted, and utilize them to achieve and end, be it good or bad (Deus Ex)

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Steampunk entails stories in an alternate history setting, or a proto-industrial Age of a fictional location. Basically positing ‘what if’ conditions for the chronology of technological advancements we’re used to, it skews them together in a hodgepodge of not only differing occurrences of tech, but also the possibility of different kinds of tech derived from industry and mechanics.

Normally, steampunk also deals with physiological enhancements, although much cruder than anything cybernetics or genetics would create. Steampunk environments have less religious constraints that Earth experienced around the Industrial revolution, leading to large groups liberally experimenting with the human body beyond what science would recommend for them to try.

The prototypical steampunk stories were essentially cyberpunk tales that were set in the past, using steam-era technology rather than the ubiquitous cybernetics of cyberpunk but maintaining those stories' "punkish" attitudes towards authority figures and human nature. Originally, like cyberpunk, steampunk was typically dystopian, often with noir and pulp fiction themes, as it was a variant of cyberpunk. As the genre developed, it came to adopt more of the broadly appealing utopian sensibilities of Victorian scientific romances.

[jackinthebox]

i love steampunk... i always liked Jules Verne, H.G. Wells and the RPG Arcanum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura)!

--> moved to off-topic btw ;)

[Adabiviak]

There's no 'all of the above', but I just finished reading some work by China Miéville that was astounding, so I'll have to say steampunk (until I read something else).

[vrap]

I've not been exposed to enough cyberpunk to really tell which of the three I like best, though I do like stuff in all categories. I'd have to say postcyberpunk interests me the most.

[ertertwert]

It's all about Snow Crash (http://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/0553380958/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/103-7894227-5730213?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175680893&sr=8-3).

[nmrahde]

Where does retro-futuristic fit with those? I sometimes just lob it in with steampunk because usually the two end up with similar looking architecture/gadgetry although they get there from very separate means.

Which one does City of Lost Children count as?

I'm gonna have to go with Steampunk with a sprinkling of retro-futuristic. There's just so many great games: FO series, Arcanum, Rise of Legends (Vinci side)

Crap...now I'm thinking of great games in the other genres...mmm...Syndicate/Syndicate Wars...

Man I can't decide now, depends on the mood of the moment I guess...

[Raveness]

Interesting to note, no one's voted for Biopunk yet, the genre this game is derived from (with tinges of steampunk). Will that bring about less critical success than true cyberpunk like SS2 or postcyberpunk like Deus Ex? Hmmm :confused:

[vrap]

Which one does City of Lost Children count as?
I think that comes under steampunk.

[v.dog]

It's all about Snow Crash (http://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/0553380958/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/103-7894227-5730213?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175680893&sr=8-3).I was going to vote for Steampunk, but that was a brilliant book. There needs to be an 'all of the above' option. :)Interesting to note, no one's voted for Biopunk yet, the genre this game is derived from (with tinges of steampunk). Will that bring about less critical success than true cyberpunk like SS2 or postcyberpunk like Deus Ex? Hmmm :confused:Given that Bx isn't out yet, the reason for the lack of votes may be that we honestly don't know how that genre will stack up against the others. You've got to go with what you know.

[Hatesink]

I voted for steampunk. Mainly because I like the aesthetics of it. But I like the idea of Biopunk. I'd prefer Biopunk if it was used for stories involving theme's of sensuality and romance. For me Anne Rice's vampire novels could almost be considered a form of biopunk (maybe in a steampunk kind of way). I think Bladerunner was very biopunk in it's own way (or at least had biopunk aspects)— probably as much as it was noir.

I loved Twenty Thousand Leagues under the sea when I read it as a kid, and I love that kind of Jules Verne H.G. Wells type science fiction. I like the classic science fiction also— Jekyll & Hyde, Frankenstein, etc.

I really like the The Island of Dr Moreau also, but that's probably more towards the biopunk end of the spectrum.

[Adabiviak]

If you liked Snow Crash, read The Diamond Age if you haven't already. Easily my favorite Neal Stephenson book.

It's possible that Biopunk doesn't have many votes because these biopunk ideas are often explored in the context of a book whose overall theme is something else. What's an example of a story that would be considered 'pure' biopunk?

[Raveness]

What's an example of a story that would be considered 'pure' biopunk?

What I can think of off the top of my head is the Xenogenesis books & the Dr. Moreau stuff for novels, and Gattaca and Sixth Day for movies.

Don't know of any primarily biopunk games besides the one we're here for.

[Jeff]

wouldn't Existenz be considered biopunk as well? in terms of movies anyway, it's a bit cheesey but not a bad flick overall.

I haven't voted because I appreciate the genre more than sub-genre's, I really haven't run into any of the 3 specific sub-genre's noted that I have disliked, and I have actively participated in games or really enjoyed movies revolving around all 3 sub-genre's. Bioshock would be my current love-affair with biopunk, I think my fascination with all things Terminator would cover the cyberpunk front decently, and the way I nerdgasm over Dune sows up the steampunk end.

I'm not very good with fitting my interests into genre's, or even affiliating them with specific genre's, I tend to operate more in a "I like that" manner.

[v.dog]

What I can think of off the top of my head is the Xenogenesis books & the Dr. Moreau stuff for novels, and Gattaca and Sixth Day for movies.When I think *punk, I usually think of a strong visual style; the zeitgeist is tied tightly to the plot.

Gattaca didn't have that, but in a way it made the movie all the more scary as you could see it as a possible- scratch that- probable future, and one that could happen in our lifetimes.

The Sixth Day I didn't care for all that much tho', typical Arnie stuff.

Of the Cyberpunk movies I like, most of them are based on the work of Philip K. Dick: Minority Report, Blade Runner, Total Recall, etc.

[Apostate]

I'd have to go with postcyberpunk, though I'm not adverse at all to finding biopunk elements dropped in there and steampunk, in the right environment, can make my brain tickle.

I would consider Snow Crash to be the definitive version of how I perceive the genre, or at least how it should be presented. That isn't to say I don't like The Diamond Age, which I feel is in many ways a superior book, but I somehow have trouble identifying TDA as an actual work of cyberpunk...it's just kind of all over the place. Neo-Victorian nanopunk, anyone?

[nmrahde]

The three are the main subgenre’s of cyberpunk, made popular in literature circles and entertainment medium by fathers William Gibson & Philip K Dick :)

Biopunk stories explore themes of individuals or groups, often belonging to a subculture, and their misappropriation of various biotechnologies for subversive ends, against a backdrop of totalitarian governments or megacorporations which abuse these same technologies as means of social control or profiteering. Conversely, in Bioshock’s case, it explores how a society accepts and adapts previous traditions and new ideals to best suit personal endeavors.

The essential gimmick is genetic manipulation of the human physiology & physiognomy for the purpose of making “supermen and women”, backdropped against ideals of improving the natural standard of the race without moral constraints on the whole, usually resulting in a social elite formation.

Topics range from prenatal selection, to enhancement surgery, to RNA manipulation, to stem-cell research.

That's the Parasite Eve series and the game Odium all the way.

[Raveness]

I feel like stocking up on some cyberpunk novels before departing to Asia. Looking online at some suggestions, and would value any feedback here.

Has anyone read any books from Rudy Rucker, Walter Jon Williams, or Bruce Sterling?
How about Shockwave Rider by John Brunner?
Is Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson really as good as they say?

[Adabiviak]

Yes, and I assume you've read William Gibson.

[vrap]

Where are you going?

[Bioshock_FTW!]

I had to vote Postcyberpunk, mostly because one of my favorite games has that sort of setting (Omikron: The Nomad Soul).
Though I'm not sure what makes it "punk"...these sub-genres confuse my delicate brain! :eek:

[MacarenaRowBot]

Post cyberpunk is the one that resonates the most with me.
Something about the marriage of flesh and machine is so chilling, yet so compelling.

We are essentially using computers today as an extension of our minds and expanding our capabilities for interacting with the world and other people. Thinking along these lines, how abstract is it to think this relationship between man and machine will develop further?
Is this one form of human evolution?

Will this lead to dystopia or utopia?
Are our minds expanding too fast for nature to keep up?
All questions that are hard to answer.

Cyberpunk Dystopia's are the human condition wrapped in a nifty science fiction.
That is to say: Both truth and fiction.
What a beutiful playground for philosophical debates about humanity.

[Freddo]

I love Postcyberpunk and wish there were more games in the genre. How cool wouldn't it be to play something like The Elder Scrolls, but in a postcyberpunk setting?

Back in the late 90s I spent a large chunk of my spare time working on such game, being mainly inspired by thinking how nice it would be to play TES2: Daggerfall but in a futuristic setting, Mutant 2090 (swedish cyberpunk P&P RPG), Blade Runner and books like Neuromancer.

Unfortunately, after about 18 months or so, my HD crashed and everything was gone. CD burners were expensive back then for a poor student, so I had no backup or anything. All that remains is my pile of notes and a few songs I composed. All the code and blocky graphics are gone. Lately I've been toying with the idea to resurrect the project and turn it into a cellphone game.

[Soulsphere]

Out of those three I'd have to say that I think I prefer Biopunk. I'm not so much into Steampunk, though I do enjoy Arcanum, mainly because I prefer sci-fi and high-techyness. As for postcyberpunk, I like it quite a bit as well, but I've always had a bit of a distaste for cybernetics/bionics.

I think the Fallout games could, perhaps, be concidered Biopunk to a point. As of today, I think they're my favourite RPGs.

[intercision]

This reminds me of some Primus lyrics (from before they sucked quite so much)

"Hey Ho Mr Kinkle, have you heard the brand new sound?
It's a cross between Jimi Hendrix, Bocephus, Cher and James Browm.
It's called "Heavy Hometown New Wave, Cold Filtered, Low-calorie dry"
- Primus, Mr. Kinkle

Do you think, perhaps, we might be over-genre-lizing a little?

Anyway, I thought BioShock was a sub-aquatic-deco-horror piece? (j/k) ;)

[lotkrotan]

Did anyone ever play Syndacite or Syndacite Wars? I've been told it's cyber punk, but I'm not sure what genre, I do know I enjoyed it a lot.

[intercision]

Ahhh Syndicate - I used to love that game!

Check out the opening cinematic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii6oJ705dTw

Gotta love the "Leonardo" device.

[Soulsphere]

Did anyone ever play Syndacite or Syndacite Wars? I've been told it's cyber punk, but I'm not sure what genre, I do know I enjoyed it a lot.

A postcyberpunk strategy game, I'd assume, with a lot of action in the mix.

[Raveness]

I don't think it's overanalyzing cyberpunk. In fact the genre needs more hard analysis, as its young and not that fleshed out in the minds of most people.

For instance, if you look at the Wikipedia entry on cyberpunk works, half the credited works are basing the material on criteria that is way too much a stretch. Dystopia != cyberpunk, Post-apocalyptic != Cyberpunk, having an ounce of machinery inside a man != cyberpunk. These other themes do not equate directly to cyberpunk by just having that theme. This is the same narrow thinking that lumps The Postman & Mad Max into the same category as Blade Runner & Ghost in the Shell.

[lotkrotan]

I hate overanalysation, as it turns into a "who knows what" kinda thing, especially on the internet. A great example of this is metal. "Band A is the best atmospheric minimalist black metal band" "nuh uh, Band A had a guest vocalist on album 3 making them non minimalist. Band B is really the best" etc. It keeps people away from discussing the actual music and what they like about the music, instead, they just put everything into catergories. You could go into a metal messageboard, lurk for a week, read some wikis, and claim to listen to all these metal bands and everyone will love you cause you know what metal is what....

[intercision]

I second that.

Having played in a band who spent a lot of time genre-dodging I also have an instinctive dislike of over-classification (or whatever you want to call it).

Post rock? Post new wave? Minimalist post punk? Instrumental retro synth-pop? It becomes a meaningless task to slap a label on everything, and detracts from the essence of the thing itself.

I've heard some people say that "If a thing fits into a genre is, by definition, not original." I think that's a little extremist, but I do think people have a strange urge to want to categorise everything.

I'm not attempting to critisise or kill this discussion - I'm a huge fan of the genre's in question. My point is just - do Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell necessarily need to fit neatly into a genre? They are both "films" - they are both "sci fi" ... but the more specific you go with labels, the less meaningful and useful those labels become. ie. "Ghost in the Shell is a Futuristic Dystopian Anime Noir Sci-Fi PostCyberPunk Psychological Thriller".

*vomits*

[Raveness]

I'm not attempting to critisise or kill this discussion - I'm a huge fan of the genre's in question. My point is just - do Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell necessarily need to fit neatly into a genre? They are both "films" - they are both "sci fi" ... but the more specific you go with labels, the less meaningful and useful those labels become. ie. "Ghost in the Shell is a Futuristic Dystopian Anime Noir Sci-Fi PostCyberPunk Psychological Thriller".

*vomits*

I think your going overboard with examples, and are exaggerating the analysis of the original 3 subgenres in question by including more genre's that were not under question.

I'm not talking about fitting things neatly into a genre of a billion categories, but rather giving a clear meaning what the genre is, beyond hapless little trinkets which cause things to be automatically lumped into cyberpunk. It's helpful as a way to identify material for targeted consumption. I certainly don't want to be given false impressions from a book or movie that it falls into a genre I was directly scoping out when it barely does. My point is there is little to no specificity unless you define it, so when you say "the more specific you go with labels, the less meaningful and useful those labels become.", thats moot when the label is already vague and has little meaning.

Really I'm going off on this bent because researching the genre for my own literary attempts has revealed a very thin layer of core cyberpunk material. Most works ascribe to be, or fancy themselves to be cyberpunk by incorporating shallow tie-ins :(