SouthPaw

[SQU1FFY v2]

Ever since I heard that this game was coming out for the 360 I've been totally made up. But one thing is worrying me will the game come with alternative thumbstick configurations ie: Southpaw, Legacy and southpaw legacy. Being a southpaw user I really dont want to miss out on this game (I could name a few AAA titles I've had to miss out on but not here). I'm also here representing an alternative control web site www.altcntrlgmr.com (http://www.altcntrlgmr.com) we have 160+ members who, like me play with alternative thumbstick configs so we are all hoping that this game will cater for us as well.

I look forward to hearing from you soon and I'd like to let my fellow alt-cntrl-gmrs that this is one to really look forward to.

[Jeff]

you know that you can configure controller settings in the 360 dashboard right? you can flip your FPS settings into a southpaw configurating with relative ease.

[Scabeater]

I know what Southpaw is (left-handed), but what is Legacy?

[2K Elizabeth]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

[SQU1FFY v2]

you know that you can configure controller settings in the 360 dashboard right? you can flip your FPS settings into a southpaw configurating with relative ease.

My setting on the 360 are set for southpaw but unfortunatley the machine is slaved to the games, if the game does not support southpaw then, southpaw does not become an option. Its a shame microsoft didn't think about this properly when developing the 360 it's great that MS put this in but it's a shame that it doesn't over ride the controller, it only stop you from going to the options in the game to set up manually. :o

[v.dog]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.I'm the same. I do a lot of things the right handed way, except for scissors. I've got to get myself a good pair of left-handed scissors.

On the subject of game controllers, it doesn't really bother me, but I do love the Wiimote/nunchuck setup, it works brilliantly (and naturally) in either hand.

[Pinky_Powers]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

I too am a left-handed person and have learned to do many things with my right. As much as I use my left hand, I could not imagine operating a mouse with it.

[Jeff]

I'm ambidextrous for most things beyond highly refined movements such as writing, this started with baseball when I was very young and decided I wanted to learn how to bat switch (bat on either side of the plate) that being said, have you ever tried to operate a mouse with your left hand? it feels so unnatural and wrong.

[Thuraya]

Ever since I heard that this game was coming out for the 360 I've been totally made up. But one thing is worrying me will the game come with alternative thumbstick configurations ie: Southpaw, Legacy and southpaw legacy. Being a southpaw user I really dont want to miss out on this game (I could name a few AAA titles I've had to miss out on but not here). I'm also here representing an alternative control web site www.altcntrlgmr.com (http://www.altcntrlgmr.com) we have 160+ members who, like me play with alternative thumbstick configs so we are all hoping that this game will cater for us as well.

I look forward to hearing from you soon and I'd like to let my fellow alt-cntrl-gmrs that this is one to really look forward to.

So, is there going to be Southpaw or not? I want to get this for my BF for his birthday but he wont play it if there isn't.

[SQU1FFY v2]

By the complete lack of a responce to the question asked I think this game will NOT support alternative thumbstick controls. Could somebody from the development team please give a straight answer.

WILL BIOSHOCK SUPPORT ALTERNATIVE THUMBSTICK CONTROLS??????????

[Da Bubs]

I am also left handed, game controls dont bother me thought, I am somewhat ambidextrous thought, I suppose most of us left handed people are to some degree because we have to do so many things right handed, driving a stick shift and operating a chainsaw come to mind. whats up with sissors anyway, I dont understand why I cant use the right handed varaity.

[Killzig]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

:yeahthat:

I actually tried the southpaw config on Halo and ended up reverting to the rightie config. I had to give into those right handed imperialists. :(

[SQU1FFY v2]

Oh well the game ships in a few weeks and still no reply from the team as to weather or not this game will support alternative thumbstick configs. I mean whats the point of having a 'Questions for the team' section if you not getting a reply.

I will not be buying this game and wasting my hard earned cash just to see if the game does or does not support alternative thumbstick configs.

THANKS FOR NOTHING :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FreshLaundryX]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

Same!

In fact, I've ended up doing most things with my right. I heard that teachers that forced lefties to convert can mess them up in the head for life, but I hope that only applies to writing. ;)

[FreshLaundryX]

whats up with sissors anyway, I dont understand why I cant use the right handed varaity.

I don't get it either. I've never really understood.
Hence, I also use scissors with my right.

[Skarm]

Oh well the game ships in a few weeks and still no reply from the team as to weather or not this game will support alternative thumbstick configs. I mean whats the point of having a 'Questions for the team' section if you not getting a reply.

I will not be buying this game and wasting my hard earned cash just to see if the game does or does not support alternative thumbstick configs.

THANKS FOR NOTHING :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I'm in the same boat as you. Hopefully 2K Elizabeth will give us an answer in her next Q&A Round Up. I'm still staying optimistic.

[The UK Lad]

yeah, you've really gotta shout to get your point across, otherwise posters will go off on a tangent and speak about something completly irrelevant.

like cats with smarties tubes on their legs, make them walk like robots:D

[Poison17]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.My Dad is Left Handed but he does everything Right Handed except for one thing which I forget what it was, just because when he was younger his Parents will tell him to do everything Right Handed not Left Handed, and he hated Left Handed Scissors in School because they where always junky, he also uses a Mouse Right Handed.

[lurchibald]

like cats with smarties tubes on their legs, make them walk like robots:D

oh man i sooo have to do that :D

[The UK Lad]

i'll supply the tubes, you supply the cat(s)

[TheVinster]

I bat right. I write left. I use scissors left. I use normal, non-Southpaw controls. It's all about what you did growing up, I'd assume; as some people said.

[v.dog]

My Dad is Left Handed but he does everything Right Handed except for one thing which I forget what it was, just because when he was younger his Parents will tell him to do everything Right Handed not Left Handed, and he hated Left Handed Scissors in School because they where always junky, he also uses a Mouse Right Handed.My Dad's the same. Fortunately, they don't force you to choose right handedness at school these days, but with everything else being set up for right-handed users, you've just got to adapt.

[Poison17]

My Dad's the same. Fortunately, they don't force you to choose right handedness at school these days, but with everything else being set up for right-handed users, you've just got to adapt.It wasn't the schools that force him to use his right hand it was his Parents.

[aliantha]

I'm left handed and use southpaw controls for Halo, Oblivion, etc. The Bioshock demo does not allow control customization, and does not read my default setting for Movement in my profile.

I also hope southpaw controls will be an option in the final game.

[Shakura Jolithion]

Oh well the game ships in a few weeks and still no reply from the team as to weather or not this game will support alternative thumbstick configs. I mean whats the point of having a 'Questions for the team' section if you not getting a reply.

I will not be buying this game and wasting my hard earned cash just to see if the game does or does not support alternative thumbstick configs.

THANKS FOR NOTHING :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
. . .
You need a clue...

Look around this section of the forum. Look at every thread. Now count how many of them have been responded to. Then count how many of them have been responded to very quickly. Then think of why forums are forums and not chatrooms. Here's a hint: The devs don't respond very often to questions, because they're busy with other things. Your best bet is to look around and find out if there's another chatroom-question session planned so you can ask. That, and check the demo.


The point of having a "questions for the team" section is that sometimes the team may come to reply, but most often, fans will have a reply to most of the questions or it generates discussion; if they spent their whole time answering questions about the game here, they'd never get the game done.

[Shakura Jolithion]

I'm left handed and use southpaw controls for Halo, Oblivion, etc. The Bioshock demo does not allow control customization, and does not read my default setting for Movement in my profile.

I also hope southpaw controls will be an option in the final game.
Well there's one answer to the question.

Anyone remember if they have a control customization for the XB360 or not? It should be in one of the pics on the cultofrapture site or have been mentioned prior.

[Meerman]

Well, the demo doesn't have Southpaw, let alone any other alternate control scheme. And if it's not in the demo, it's not in the final game. This means I can't play the game. And no, I refuse to learn the default one out of principle.

I demand an explanation from Irrational Games as to why they have omitted alternate controls.

[Dr. Splicer]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

I too am left-handed, but use just about everything right (except to write). I've noticed in some of the gameplay videos that the plasmids instead of being on the left hand, are on the right. This has nothing to do with southpaw right? :confused: But in all, it's all about preference, and I hope you can go southpaw in the final game.

[revengematron3]

Well, the demo doesn't have Southpaw, let alone any other alternate control scheme. And if it's not in the demo, it's not in the final game. This means I can't play the game. And no, I refuse to learn the default one out of principle.

I demand an explanation from Irrational Games as to why they have omitted alternate controls.

Just because it's not in the demo means jack squat. Wait till the full game comes out, I doubt that they won't have southpaw controls.

[Meerman]

Just because it's not in the demo means jack squat. Wait till the full game comes out, I doubt that they won't have southpaw controls.

Most games that don't have customisable controls in their demos also end up not having them in the full game. It's either in the engine, or it's not.

Rainbow Six: Vegas had alternate control schemes in the demo, but Hour of Victory didn't, and that's just one of many examples.

[Brutal Deluxe]

In this day and age, every game should have, at the very least, alternate control schemes, if not completely user-redefinable controls.

I can't imagine it takes very long to implement these features, when it will surely help gamers who like alternate control schemes to enjoy the game.

Speaking as an ex-Legacy user, it was only Halo's implementation of the 'standard fps' controls that allowed me to get used to them, before that any game using standard controls were a spinning, confusing mess.

Any game without such control options deserves 50% knocking off the review scores, and the developers given a big dose of the 'WTF were you thinking?' stick.

[jordanlund]

I love how the mods closed another thread asking the same question, pointing the user to this thread where the question is completely unanswered.

Great jorb guys!

If you can take the time to say "Dummy, search the forum before posting" you can take the time to answer the guys question properly.

[Skarm]

Seriously, why is it so hard to answer this question? I've seen a dozen Southpaw threads and half of them get locked and we get no answer, only redirections to older threads where people are telling stories about their realatives who are left-handed. :)

I've already tried the demo, which doesn't include Southpaw nor Legacy, and although I'm having a really hard time playing with the default controls due to a damaged nerve on my right thumb, the game's awesome. I might even buy it, can't aim for **** though. :p

[bertybenno]

Yes need an answer to this hangs whether or not i get the game no southpaw no purchase.

[Spit]

Same here. I will definatly buy the game if it has southpaw implented.
Can someone from 2K just answer the question? It's not like you guys will fool anyone who depends on Southpaw or Legacy into buying the game anyway.

Will the retail version of BioShock support Legacy and/or Southpaw?

[Shakura Jolithion]

I have a question for those wanting southpaw controller support;
Is southpaw just switching the control sticks around (I looked it up and there wasn't anything very official, and that's the most complete answer I found).

And if so, why does the game need to support it, as in, why can't you buy a controller where the wires for the two analog stick are crossed (I.E. A---C B---D becomes A---D B---C where A&B are the analog sticks, and B&C are the console ports or whatever)? Because if there *are* controllers like that, presuming they're the same quality as regular ones and actually exist, it would fix your problems with all games, I think...

Also, which thumb do you normally use to aim with and which do you normally use to shoot with?

[Spit]

Yes Shakura Jolithion, southpaw is when you just switch the sticks around. And for me personally, being right-handed, I look with left-analog and wanna have primary fire at right trigger.

If you have any link to a modded controller like that, that are avalible in every country and cost around the same amount as a regular controller, please be my guest and post a link.
Also, I don't have the right skill to modd myself, nor do any of my friends that I can think of. Besides all the huzzle, you have the warranty problem and such. But yes, if you get your hand on a correct modded controller, it would fix the problem.

But regardless of that possibility, don't you agree it would be easier if the developers just make everyone happy and implent a decent controlscheme?

It must be such an easy thing to do, for heaven sake, just use all the data collected finetuning the controller and swap the sticks!

Seriously, what are we talking about here, a couple of hours for a skilled programmer? If even that much.

[SpeckledJim]

Two things really bother me about the southpaw/legacy control issue. The first is that developers always seem to be surprised that this is a problem, as if they had no idea that 8-15% of the population are left handed, and might therefore find it uncomfortable to use the default layout. You would assume that with a reasonable sized QA team, at least one or two would be left handed and let them know how uncomfortable it can be to try and play a game this way.

The second is that Microsoft missed a perfect opportunity to handle this the right way by making it a mandatory part of the TCR that alternative control schemes are present in every game, rather than relying on the hopeless dashboard preference which can simply be ignored by the developer.

The suggestion that we can buy modified controllers is a valid one, but it simply shouldn't be necessary. Imagine for a moment that the PC versions of games shipped with one control layout that couldn't be modified in-game, and in order to get the one you wanted you had to buy a modified keyboard, with re-wired buttons. A crazy solution, and it's just as ridiculous that console players should have to go to those lengths in order to be able to play comfortably. The code to handle multiple configurations is trivial, there simply is no excuse.

Bioshock on the 360 is now not an option for me.

[PeRFeCtRaGEdy]

I'm left-handed and I do most things, including gaming, right-handed. You give me a pair of lefty scissors and I wouldn't be able to cut **** for the life of me; right-handed ones with my LH is no problem at all. Same with Guitar Hero II. I'm on hard/expert RH but can barely get through very early songs on medium if I flip everything.

[SpeckledJim]

Well that's great for you, but it's not exactly helpful. Should we all simply put up with controls we aren't comfortable with? There are also people who are right handed who still prefer the southpaw configuration. The point here is that people are all different, so why are we saddled with a one-size-fits-all approach?

Your mention of left handed tools is also not really relevant, since we are being forced to use the right hand for something we would normally use the left hand for, which is far worse than having to use a tool with the left hand that was designed to be used by the right hand. In the second case, we are still able to use the dominant hand.

The equivalent case in a non gaming context would be being made to write with your non dominant hand, which of course is very difficult unless you happen to be ambidextrous.

[PeRFeCtRaGEdy]

The equivalent case in a non gaming context would be being made to write with your non dominant hand, which of course is very difficult unless you happen to be ambidextrous.

My head hurts if I try focusing on writing RH, so I know what you're talking about.

[dark54555]

he first thing i did was check the controls and as of right now it does not allow you to change them from the default settings. sorry.

See here, post 174 (http://www.roosterteeth.com/forum/viewTopic.php?id=2188158&page=6).


I support the SouthPaw Manifesto (http://lawofthegame.blogspot.com/2007/08/southpaw-manifesto.html), and as such will not purchase this game.

[nakedcowboy]

Another otherwise 100% purchase dropped off the list due to a ridiculously obvious oversight.

and lol at the guy who said yesterday that is obviously will have legacy because all FPS do.

[Shakura Jolithion]

Another otherwise 100% purchase dropped off the list due to a ridiculously obvious oversight.

and lol at the guy who said yesterday that is obviously will have legacy because all FPS do.

Another rediculous undersight on your part; wait till the full game is released, *THEN* see if there's southpaw or not, or wait for Liz to confirm whether there is or isn't. And personally, I can't see the problem. I'm right handed and can barely begin to write with my left hand, etc. But when it comes to videogames (Wii, for example), I'm perfectly fine with using either thumb for the control stick. It takes a while to start off on getting one thumb used to whatever, but it becomes natural. Not to mention that if you can aim with one hand, you should be able to move with that same hand. If you can't aim *and* run equally well with one hand, then you probably aren't doing well in games, seeing as how they need a combo of both being at about the same level...

People need to quit saying they won't play because it doesn't have X and wait until something official is stated that confirms or denies the presence of southpaw/legacy. And if they don't have it, the least you could do is go out and try the game for an hour or so rather than claiming you just can't play because they don't have your preferred control scheme. That, or get the freakin PC version if it's such a big deal...

[dark54555]

Shakura, considering that's the report from someone who got one of the copies that was sold early by TRU, I'd say it's pretty definitive that there isn't southpaw or legacy in the final game. Next time, try reading a little closer.

[Shakura Jolithion]

Shakura, considering that's the report from someone who got one of the copies that was sold early by TRU, I'd say it's pretty definitive that there isn't southpaw or legacy in the final game. Next time, try reading a little closer.
I still have to ask why people can't just get a controller where the wires are switched. That, and considering it's a report from someone who supposedly got it early, I'd say it's pretty untrustworthy. When the game comes out, then everyone will know for sure; no idea/proof whether someone got the game for sure or is just saying stuff, in addition to the fact that the post you linked said: "the first thing i did was check the controls and as of right now it does not allow you to change them from the default settings. sorry.". That means that they could patch something prior to the real release, or there could be a future patch.

[dark54555]

I still have to ask why people can't just get a controller where the wires are switched. That, and considering it's a report from someone who supposedly got it early, I'd say it's pretty untrustworthy. When the game comes out, then everyone will know for sure; no idea/proof whether someone got the game for sure or is just saying stuff, in addition to the fact that the post you linked said: "the first thing i did was check the controls and as of right now it does not allow you to change them from the default settings. sorry.". That means that they could patch something prior to the real release, or there could be a future patch.

1. Llama stopped selling the switched controllers because the mod was too complex. No one else sells a switched controller.

2. A patch is nice, but until one actually surfaces, I won't buy this game.

[Shakura Jolithion]

Ok then... How many people who complain about no southpaw/legacy have tried whatever the primary control option is called, or at least played the demo for an hour plus? Those that haven't should stop complaining, those that have, you have my sympathies.

[RedWolf26]

I'm left handed, but due to being a PC gamer, I play all of my games in the right hand configuration.

[SpeckledJim]

Ok then... How many people who complain about no southpaw/legacy have tried whatever the primary control option is called, or at least played the demo for an hour plus? Those that haven't should stop complaining, those that have, you have my sympathies.

Yes, I've played the demo for an hour at least. Not that it makes any difference. The problem is always the same for any game where you aim and shoot with both sticks. Bioshock is no different. If you are uncomfortable aiming with the right thumb in any game, you'll find it just as uncomfortable in Bioshock.

Providing alternate controller configurations is a win for everyone. You use the default layout? Great, you don't even need to look in the options menu. If you do, you flick a couple of settings and it's just how you want. Everyone is happy, no one needs to spend even more money buying a modified controller.

Consider for a moment if the aiming in Bioshock was set to have inverted Y-axis by default, with no way to change it. I'll wager a lot of people would find that very irritating. Could they struggle through? Sure, but it would be much less enjoyable to play. That's how it feels when you want to use southpaw or legacy and that simple option isn't there.

[nakedcowboy]

Yes, I played the demo through twice. By about an hour and a half I had adapted fairly well. Then i popped halo 2 back in and played the worst I've played in a year for another hour and a half.

Legacy setups are more than just switching left and right thumbstick. Left thumb controls forward backward and left/right rotation, right thumb controls strafing and looking up and down. If that's how you learned it, and you spend more time gaming in that setup than "standard", it's a ridiculous hassle to reprogram your hands and your brain to move differently.

Also, it's impossible to re-wire or mod a controller for permanent legacy.

Sorry my last statement was so "rediculous". I have a demo that won't play as legacy, two people who have the game who say there isn't an option for legacy, and there are 4 months worth of this question being asked weekly with an obvious lack of response. If the game accomodated southpaw or legacy, that list would not exist.

If they add legacy later, I'll happily trot over to my local gamestop and buy one. For now, I'll be playing and buying other games.

[Spit]

Ok then... How many people who complain about no southpaw/legacy have tried whatever the primary control option is called, or at least played the demo for an hour plus? Those that haven't should stop complaining, those that have, you have my sympathies.

I estimate I have put around +200 hours playing with the "normal" controlscheme. (Know I put 150 hours on Oblivion since you can see the time played on your saves, then add GRAW and belive it was FEAR)

Yes, ofcourse I learned, but after all that time it never felt comfteble and it just didn't feel right. Felt like I played on a 75% capacity or something compared to when I play southpaw.
So when GoW and CoD3 came along that supported southpaw, I changed back, and I could enjoy them fully.

It's like you do everything you can to protect 2K and somehow try to shift the responsibility over to us. How about if all gamers stand together and support eachother so developers are forced to give us a decent controlscheme, is that really to much to ask for? In the end everyone should benefit from this.

God knows what they cut back on next time, soon they are to lazy to put in any option at all. If you take one step back and look at this neutral, you'll see it isn't much we ask for here. They allready have all the data collected from calibrating the control in the first place, how about if they just skip one or two coffeebreaks and implent an legacy and southpaw option also, so EVERYONE can enjoy the game.

Oh, and to be technical, it isn't really me who have changed or play diffrent. Back when pads only had one stick, southpaw was the normal and default way to play. Seems people who hasn't been around videogames that long tend to forget that.

[PeRFeCtRaGEdy]

Back when pads only had one stick, southpaw was the normal and default way to play.

Ahh, the good ol' days of N64.

[nakedcowboy]

Oh, and to be technical, it isn't really me who have changed or play diffrent. Back when pads only had one stick, southpaw was the normal and default way to play. Seems people who hasn't been around videogames that long tend to forget that.

check aaaaand mate

[dark54555]

I estimate I have put around +200 hours playing with the "normal" controlscheme. (Know I put 150 hours on Oblivion since you can see the time played on your saves, then add GRAW and belive it was FEAR)

...

Oh, and to be technical, it isn't really me who have changed or play diffrent. Back when pads only had one stick, southpaw was the normal and default way to play. Seems people who hasn't been around videogames that long tend to forget that.

1. You know, Oblivion on the 360 could be switched to Southpaw using the dashboard settings. I wouldn't have bothered playing it otherwise.

2. Exactly. For those of us, especially the older players, started gaming on the NES/SNES/N64, southpaw is far more the norm. It's far more newer players who find default to be normal, since controllers (for them) have always had dual analog.

[Shakura Jolithion]

2. Exactly. For those of us, especially the older players, started gaming on the NES/SNES/N64, southpaw is far more the norm. It's far more newer players who find default to be normal, since controllers (for them) have always had dual analog.

I started back on those consoles, and I find that there is no norm. I really don't care which hand does what; dual analogs means dual analogs; if you can do fancy stuff with one but not the other, then you're gonna suffer...

[Shakura Jolithion]

Sorry for the double post, didn't notice earlier...
Yes, ofcourse I learned, but after all that time it never felt comfteble and it just didn't feel right. Felt like I played on a 75% capacity or something compared to when I play southpaw.
So when GoW and CoD3 came along that supported southpaw, I changed back, and I could enjoy them fully.

Play for another few hundred hours and it'll feel normal, I garuntee it. But since that's cruel and unusual, I sincerely hope you can find a controller that switches the wires. I don't know much, but I have to ask why someone would need a mod or something; can't someone just build a controller (someone as in a company that makes controllers) that has the left and right analog outputs switched? That's presuming there's not some huge complicated thing with how the systems work...

It's like you do everything you can to protect 2K and somehow try to shift the responsibility over to us.
Not really, but I'm sick of a lot of people posting how they won't buy a game because of x and y and z small things. I remember having to learn to play Goldeneye as one of the first games I ever owned, being right handed and using that controller. It took a looong time to get good enough just to beat the game on normal, mostly due to aiming (and later learning that if you zoom in and fire one or two shots, it acts as if it's silenced, as opposed to normal fire... oops >.>)

How about if all gamers stand together and support eachother so developers are forced to give us a decent controlscheme, is that really to much to ask for? In the end everyone should benefit from this.
I blame whoever made it so that the xbox settings don't affect the game settings. Namely, I blame Microsoft first and the developer 2nd, because you should be able to change, on the console, the way the outputs from the controller get translated to inputs in the game. From what I've read, 2k didn't know (probably didn't do much research, either...) about the way the xbox's settings don't affect gameplay unless the game has some particular programming. What I can't figure out is why setting things on the XB360 wouldn't change the game, unless the stuff people set into the XB isn't actually programmed; instead of switching up the inputs from the controller, I'm going to guess that it just sets it as default when there's an option within the game, meaning the thing is misleading and a mistake on Microsoft's part.

God knows what they cut back on next time, soon they are to lazy to put in any option at all.
You realize how much stuff they put in in the first place, don't you? They actually developed the versions controls seperately so it wouldn't be just a port.

If you take one step back and look at this neutral, you'll see it isn't much we ask for here.
And I also see that it's not much to accomadate ones self to, either; people cancelling over this is rediculous. Unless someone is severely incapable of using one of their hands, then it's not difficult to get used to being moderatly ambidextrous.

They allready have all the data collected from calibrating the control in the first place, how about if they just skip one or two coffeebreaks and implent an legacy and southpaw option also, so EVERYONE can enjoy the game.
Depends on the programming, but I do agree it seems like somethign important but simple that was overlooked somehow. And with all the arguing about it, I'm sure they'll release a patch or something within a week or so.

Oh, and to be technical, it isn't really me who have changed or play diffrent. Back when pads only had one stick, southpaw was the normal and default way to play. Seems people who hasn't been around videogames that long tend to forget that.
I remember adapting to the N64 as one of my first consoles, then playing stuff on the gamecube where things were sometimes switched. Wasn't very hard for me to handle either control scheme.

[dark54555]

They don't even really have to program anything. This game is built on the Unreal 3 engine, as was Gears of War and a number of other titles which have other control schemes in them. I would be willing to assume that the license for the U3 engine includes that particular element, assuming you take the time to build a menu for it.

[PeRFeCtRaGEdy]

I recently played the N64 and I've got to say, after so many years with ergonomically comfortable dual-stick controllers, it was awkward as all hell trying to use the old gamepad.

[SpeckledJim]

Not really, but I'm sick of a lot of people posting how they won't buy a game because of x and y and z small things. I remember having to learn to play Goldeneye as one of the first games I ever owned, being right handed and using that controller. It took a looong time to get good enough just to beat the game on normal, mostly due to aiming (and later learning that if you zoom in and fire one or two shots, it acts as if it's silenced, as opposed to normal fire... oops >.>)

This is not a small point to a lot of people. If it was you wouldn't see people say they won't be buying it. Control is fundamental to enjoying a game, it's the only way you have to interact with it. If it's wrong, then it isn't enjoyable.

Your Goldeneye experience pretty much sums it up for me. I'm simply not willing to put up with endless hours trying to get used to playing in a way that isn't comfortable.


I blame whoever made it so that the xbox settings don't affect the game settings. Namely, I blame Microsoft first and the developer 2nd, because you should be able to change, on the console, the way the outputs from the controller get translated to inputs in the game. From what I've read, 2k didn't know (probably didn't do much research, either...) about the way the xbox's settings don't affect gameplay unless the game has some particular programming. What I can't figure out is why setting things on the XB360 wouldn't change the game, unless the stuff people set into the XB isn't actually programmed; instead of switching up the inputs from the controller, I'm going to guess that it just sets it as default when there's an option within the game, meaning the thing is misleading and a mistake on Microsoft's part.

They are both to blame. I don't think you can let 2K off with the assumption that they are unaware of how dashboard preferences work. They have the API docs. They have a QA team. In the absence of any other evidence I'd have to conclude they simply don't care.

As far as I'm aware the dashboard stick preference is simply a flag that the game can read and then choose to act on or not, thus making it useless.


And I also see that it's not much to accomadate ones self to, either; people cancelling over this is rediculous. Unless someone is severely incapable of using one of their hands, then it's not difficult to get used to being moderatly ambidextrous.

By your own admission it took a long time to get used to Goldeneye's layout. I want to pick up a game and feel comfortable right away, that doesn't seem an unreasonable request.


Depends on the programming, but I do agree it seems like somethign important but simple that was overlooked somehow. And with all the arguing about it, I'm sure they'll release a patch or something within a week or so.

This is partly what's so annoying about the situation. It happens again and again, with seemingly no one ever learning from it. A game will get released, if there's enough stink about the control options, it may get patched months later, but not before it's cheesed off a lot of potential customers. A smart developer would realise that a few hours spent on doing this right from the start would avoid a lot of ill-will when the game is released.

[Brutal Deluxe]

Its not just that though, if I find I want to use A to jump, B to use, X to reload, and Y for medikit, why shouldn't I be able to do that? (I actually thought it would be better to take the weapon/plasmid selection off the bumpers, and put medikit and jump on them, the reason being, the game pauses when you use weapon selection, so it would be optimal to have them on face buttons, and things you might want to do while also aiming on the bumpers)

I can't see any reason for fully redefinable controls to not be put in a game, nowadays, to not put alternate control schemes in seems either lazy, or dumb.

Ah well, devs choice, I guess.

[Lancer777]

So, I made a topic similar to this, and it was closed, I was redirected to here and I also was chastised for not using the search function. But I go here and there still isn't an answer to my or the TC's question, just speculation as to what will happen. Do we know anything new yet?

Team?

Anyone?

And as I was reading over this topic, I saw someone ask if we left-handed gamers had tried the normal settings.

Yes I have, and it doesn't work. It didn't stop me from finishing the demo, but I had to stop moving rather regularly.

But then again, I'm a special case, for actual physical reasons (not just being left-handed) I need southpaw settings.

[Shakura Jolithion]

This is not a small point to a lot of people. If it was you wouldn't see people say they won't be buying it.
I've already seen people claim they won't buy it over bigger and smaller points than this... It matters differently to every person, and unless someone's *severely* hindered by not having southpaw/legacy, then they shouldn't talk about cancelling/not buying the game. Really, if you can't use the hand you use to move around to aim with, and vise versa, how can you play FPSes to begin with? From the years I've played, you need almost as much skill for moving around and dodging as you do for aiming and shooting.
Control is fundamental to enjoying a game, it's the only way you have to interact with it. If it's wrong, then it isn't enjoyable.
It can be enjoyable; people can adapt to anything that doesn't kill them, given enough time.
Your Goldeneye experience pretty much sums it up for me. I'm simply not willing to put up with endless hours trying to get used to playing in a way that isn't comfortable.
Thing is, do it once, and every game that doesn't have your control scheme will be easy, rather than having to check every game.

They are both to blame. I don't think you can let 2K off with the assumption that they are unaware of how dashboard preferences work. They have the API docs. They have a QA team. In the absence of any other evidence I'd have to conclude they simply don't care.
And still, I've already read someone stating there'll be a small patch on release. Probably won't be for the controllers, but it does mean that they may have it in the future.

By your own admission it took a long time to get used to Goldeneye's layout. I want to pick up a game and feel comfortable right away, that doesn't seem an unreasonable request.
Goldeneye was the 2nd game I ever owned, the first being MarioKart64. It took a long time to *beat* the game, not necessarily to get used to the controls; I got used to them within around 10~20 hours of gameplay or so; going through on agent and I could get things done well. After several hours, I could start playing it on secret agent. Eventually, after many more hours, I could play it on 00 agent. After that, I never had problems with any controls on the N64 again. And if you've played a dual-analog controller for at least that many hours, then chances are it won't take you long at all to get used to it.


This is partly what's so annoying about the situation. It happens again and again, with seemingly no one ever learning from it. A game will get released, if there's enough stink about the control options, it may get patched months later, but not before it's cheesed off a lot of potential customers. A smart developer would realise that a few hours spent on doing this right from the start would avoid a lot of ill-will when the game is released.
Well, write to Microsoft and tell them to fix it. Start a petition or something. The developers of Bioshock are obviously smart; either this thing was overlooked (I can see how very easily; I and a lot of other people I know had never even *heard* of southpaw or legacy, let alone knew that console controls could be edited in some games) or intentional, probably overlooked. Everyone makes mistakes. And if it only takes a few hours to make, then it won't be a few months before there's a patch.

[Shakura Jolithion]

So, I made a topic similar to this, and it was closed, I was redirected to here and I also was chastised for not using the search function. But I go here and there still isn't an answer to my or the TC's question, just speculation as to what will happen. Do we know anything new yet?

Team?

Anyone?

And as I was reading over this topic, I saw someone ask if we left-handed gamers had tried the normal settings.

Yes I have, and it doesn't work. It didn't stop me from finishing the demo, but I had to stop moving rather regularly.

But then again, I'm a special case, for actual physical reasons (not just being left-handed) I need southpaw settings.
Play a while longer and it should start growing on you. Because in the mean time, the devs rarely answer this forum (huge # of questions, etc.), and the person in charge of public appearances for Bioshock (Elizibeth) is on vacation. If you're a special case, then I feel sorry for you since (at least from what someone posted) there's noone that makes controllers that are southpaw by default. Chances are you won't get anything confirmed until release.

[SpeckledJim]

I've already seen people claim they won't buy it over bigger and smaller points than this... It matters differently to every person, and unless someone's *severely* hindered by not having southpaw/legacy, then they shouldn't talk about cancelling/not buying the game. Really, if you can't use the hand you use to move around to aim with, and vise versa, how can you play FPSes to begin with? From the years I've played, you need almost as much skill for moving around and dodging as you do for aiming and shooting.

Well I think we've reached the limit of where it's fruitful to discuss this. For you it isn't an issue, for some of of us it is. I see that there is a enough of a difference between aiming and moving that I always want aiming performed with my dominant hand. Aiming is the thing that needs the most finesse, moving much less so.


Well, write to Microsoft and tell them to fix it. Start a petition or something. The developers of Bioshock are obviously smart; either this thing was overlooked (I can see how very easily; I and a lot of other people I know had never even *heard* of southpaw or legacy, let alone knew that console controls could be edited in some games) or intentional, probably overlooked. Everyone makes mistakes. And if it only takes a few hours to make, then it won't be a few months before there's a patch.

You may not have heard of southpaw or legacy, but surely you didn't need to be made aware of the concept of controls having different configurations. The names aren't relevant.

I also wouldn't necessarily place much faith in them patching it quickly, or even at all. Many don't bother or they do it so half-heartedly that it seems even more of an insult. A case in point would be G.R.A.W. It shipped without any kind of stick swapping option, and was finally patched months later to include southpaw, but only in multi-player mode, single player mode remained gimped.

As for not buying the games because of these points, well it really is the only thing they notice. I have no idea how many sales they lose because of it. It won't be that many, we are in the minority after all, so I'm under no illusion that it hurts them financially, but I can at least ensure they don't get my money for something I consider substandard.

[Shakura Jolithion]

You may not have heard of southpaw or legacy, but surely you didn't need to be made aware of the concept of controls having different configurations. The names aren't relevant.
I've never known anyone to use different control schemes.

I also wouldn't necessarily place much faith in them patching it quickly, or even at all. Many don't bother or they do it so half-heartedly that it seems even more of an insult. A case in point would be G.R.A.W. It shipped without any kind of stick swapping option, and was finally patched months later to include southpaw, but only in multi-player mode, single player mode remained gimped.
Irrational or 2k (whatever they're called now...) doesn't do things half-arsed. Look at the controls and how they work; they're extremely well thought out. They may have overlooked control stick switching, or maybe they haven't, given that it's a demo. Either way, they put a lot of work into this stuff, I doubt they'd make any half-hearted updates.

As for not buying the games because of these points, well it really is the only thing they notice. I have no idea how many sales they lose because of it. It won't be that many, we are in the minority after all, so I'm under no illusion that it hurts them financially, but I can at least ensure they don't get my money for something I consider substandard.
If you consider the game substandard for one oversight that affects a minority of players, then you have very strange standards. And from what I've read in this thread, the standard is having no southpaw/legacy controls...

[SpeckledJim]

I've never known anyone to use different control schemes.

Really? I find that hard to believe. You don't play PC games, or know people that do? What's needed is the same level of customisation on consoles that PC players expect. It's hard to use different control configurations if they aren't offered.


Irrational or 2k (whatever they're called now...) doesn't do things half-arsed. Look at the controls and how they work; they're extremely well thought out. They may have overlooked control stick switching, or maybe they haven't, given that it's a demo. Either way, they put a lot of work into this stuff, I doubt they'd make any half-hearted updates.

To me, well thought out would include the option to change the controls, but we obviously can't agree on that. It being a demo is also no excuse. A demo is designed to entice you to buy the game. All the Bioshock demo has done is show me that the game is well made and great to look at, but unpleasant to control.


If you consider the game substandard for one oversight that affects a minority of players, then you have very strange standards. And from what I've read in this thread, the standard is having no southpaw/legacy controls...

Of course, I can only consider it from my perspective. If you happen to be in the minority affected, then it becomes important.

[SAKY]

Where were you all then?!?!?!? FAH-KING-****. Too late now, always look to the future guys n gals.....

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11756#post11756

Look guys you want support? these folks at 2k are just going to give you the run-around and never answer your questions because they want you to buy and find out yourself if southpaw/legacy is there (it ain't, BTW). You answer and support are at www.altcntrlgmr.com

[Shakura Jolithion]

Really? I find that hard to believe. You don't play PC games, or know people that do? What's needed is the same level of customisation on consoles that PC players expect. It's hard to use different control configurations if they aren't offered.
I was referring to consoles. And consoles can't have teh same customization that PC players have because they don't have nearly as many keys and buttons, not to mention the Wii is the only thing that's like having a mouse.

To me, well thought out would include the option to change the controls, but we obviously can't agree on that. It being a demo is also no excuse. A demo is designed to entice you to buy the game. All the Bioshock demo has done is show me that the game is well made and great to look at, but unpleasant to control.
So you're saying that the great graphics and gameplay is well made but not well thought out? And you're saying the control scheme is unpleasant because you can't switch up the analog sticks? What about all the *other* controls? Eh?

Of course, I can only consider it from my perspective. If you happen to be in the minority affected, then it becomes important.
People got used to southpaw on the N64 when they had those, then they had to switch back to right handed for some of the other consoles.

Also, looking at the XB360 controller, wouldn't you need to buy a new controller all together rather than having the sticks switched *if* you had a serious problem with using your right hand?

[Dez1013]

Shakura, look, you don't understand and it seems like you're playing Devil's Advocate.

If the retail version of the game doesn't have lefty controls, I will not buy it, period. I am a lefty and without having the sticks switched, I can't play, it just doesn't happen. You try and play Halo with the southpaw setup and see how well you do. If you can do it, thats fine, but me, I can't do default at all as its very unnatural for me and hinders the play to the point where its not fun. I shouldn't have to think of every action before I do it, it should be intuitive and just happen.

The typical response to people who use alt setups by default control scheme users is, "why don't you just learn to use default"? I can't. Its like asking you to write with your offhand. Its frustrating, slow, and you get tired of it real quick. We can't learn these things when the opposite is natural, thats just how we're born. Its even worse for us because we have to know what setups are available before we buy a game, we can't just pick it off the shelf.

It also, doesn't make sense that with the data storage levels we have that full customization isn't an option. Some people like invert look, southpaw, legacy, reload to be B, who knows. The options should be there and its absurd to overlook them.

[nakedcowboy]

I've never known anyone to use different control schemes.


Great. That doesn't mean that there are a *ton* of people who don't. The majority of the people I play halo with use southpaw or legacy. There wouldn't be a ridiculous number of threads on this topic if it was an immaterial minority.

And from what I've read in this thread, the standard is having no southpaw/legacy controls...

Yep. The standard. Oh wait, no. It's the opposite. How about a list of the xbox shooters that support alt controls. It basically reads as the list of shooters worth playing on the system with few exceptions.

Armored Core 4
Call of Duty (2 and 3)
Condemned
FarCry
Halo (1, 2 and 3)
Gears of War
Ghost Recon (1 and 2)
Perfect Dark
Prey
Quake 4
Rainbow 6: Vegas
ShadowRun

Something that all these games have in common that is expected by a significant portion of the gaming populated not being included IS A BIG DEAL. Over 10% of the population is left handed. Add to that the people that prefer legacy (yes, it's plenty), and this isn't a small minority.
Even Ubisoft acknowleged that it was an oversight not placing it in splintercell.

Yes, it is a HUGE EFFING DEAL to switch for people who are left handed or have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours playing halo, gears of war, etc. in different schemes. How many people have to post here saying that it's an inconvenience that makes it not worth it to play the game before you realize that maybe you can't speak to the magnitude of a problem you don't have to deal with.

[Shakura Jolithion]

Shakura, look, you don't understand and it seems like you're playing Devil's Advocate.

If the retail version of the game doesn't have lefty controls, I will not buy it, period. I am a lefty and without having the sticks switched, I can't play, it just doesn't happen. You try and play Halo with the southpaw setup and see how well you do. If you can do it, thats fine, but me, I can't do default at all as its very unnatural for me and hinders the play to the point where its not fun. I shouldn't have to think of every action before I do it, it should be intuitive and just happen.
I'm not sure there is a southpaw for Halo on the PC. I don't play XB360, but I can go from playing on a Gamecube to playing N64 pretty easily, which causes a switch of analogs. I can also switch which hand I use in the Wii, too.

The typical response to people who use alt setups by default control scheme users is, "why don't you just learn to use default"? I can't. Its like asking you to write with your offhand.
Not unless you are *severely* disabled with your offhand. Again, N64 was southpaw by default, I got used to that despite having prior experience using right hand for joystick and left hand hardly at all. And can swap hands on wii and not be hindered.
Its frustrating, slow, and you get tired of it real quick. We can't learn these things when the opposite is natural, thats just how we're born. Its even worse for us because we have to know what setups are available before we buy a game, we can't just pick it off the shelf.
You can learn to use them fairly well, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use a dual analog controller to begin with. If you have problems that bad, you can google how to make your controller southpaw by default with some handywork. Then you could play all the games you skip...

It also, doesn't make sense that with the data storage levels we have that full customization isn't an option.[/qoute]
People overlook it, are lazy, don't focus on quality... the list goes on. Not good reasons, but still it makes sense, considering how many games are of poor quality anyway. For bioshock, it depends on what they focused on during controller developement.
[quote]Some people like invert look, southpaw, legacy, reload to be B, who knows. The options should be there and its absurd to overlook them.
If it's so absurd, why do so many developers overlook it? I'm just here to keep people arguing till they release a patch so they don't miss out :P That, and I'd like to see more people saying they've tried for at least an hour. Hell, I remember trying to get used to TimeSplitters on the Wii. Took me an hour to beat one challenge once. After a dozen tries, I widdled the time to under 3 mins for a platinum. Then I could get most stuff done; becoming proficient takes time.

[Shakura Jolithion]

[quote]Yep. The standard. Oh wait, no. It's the opposite. How about a list of the xbox shooters that support alt controls. It basically reads as the list of shooters worth playing on the system with few exceptions.
Your list proves nothing; want to prove it's the opposite? Give statistics for total games with alternative controls vs. total games without.


Perfect Dark
Perfect Dark isn't on the XB360. It's on the N64... Perfect Dark Zero is on the XB360, and there's a huge difference (hint: one was highly ranked, the other was a fair letdown, and didn't have unlockables from Goldeneye).
Something that all these games have in common that is expected by a significant portion of the gaming populated not being included IS A BIG DEAL. Over 10% of the population is left handed. Add to that the people that prefer legacy (yes, it's plenty), and this isn't a small minority.
Even Ubisoft acknowleged that it was an oversight not placing it in splintercell.
If over 10% of the population is left handed, that means around 90% is right handed. I never hear people complain of getting used to the N64 and other southpaw controls.

Yes, it is a HUGE EFFING DEAL to switch for people who are left handed or have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours playing halo, gears of war, etc. in different schemes.
Won't be a big deal anymore if they mod their controllers so it's southpaw by default, or they get used to playing in a different style.

How many people have to post here saying that it's an inconvenience that makes it not worth it to play the game before you realize that maybe you can't speak to the magnitude of a problem you don't have to deal with.
If it's an inconvenience that prevents people from playing a large number of games, then they should figure out how to get around it without alternate control schemes, like modding the controller. I've dealt with similair stuff before, as I've been saying; N64 was southpaw. I got used to that. Then a lot of games on the Gamecube made me have to switch. I got used to that. It takes a little while to readapt to each, but I can go back and forth fairly well. I can't write for **** with my left hand, and I can't write very well with my right, either. And if a game is great, then it doesn't matter how the controls are unless it severely hinders you to the point where you can barely fight. And there's Easy mode. And there's the hope of a release patch, etc. etc.

[nakedcowboy]

[QUOTE=nakedcowboy;102390]

Your list proves nothing; want to prove it's the opposite? Give statistics for total games with alternative controls vs. total games without.


this problem is by far most prevalent in the FPS genre, as such i listed only FPS style games. the list of quality FPS games for the system where this isn't an option is so short it's not worth mentioning.


Perfect Dark isn't on the XB360. It's on the N64... Perfect Dark Zero is on the XB360, and there's a huge difference (hint: one was highly ranked, the other was a fair letdown, and didn't have unlockables from Goldeneye).

wow, i didn't put a "zero" after what i wrote. that in no way affects the list

If over 10% of the population is left handed, that means around 90% is right handed. I never hear people complain of getting used to the N64 and other southpaw controls.


right.. when there was only 1 stick based system, getting used to different setups was, by default, impossible....
it did take people a while to get used to the 2 stick system, which is why even xbox 1 launch games came with the legacy and southpaw options. hi, forward thinking.


Won't be a big deal anymore if they mod their controllers so it's southpaw by default, or they get used to playing in a different style.

If it's an inconvenience that prevents people from playing a large number of games, then they should figure out how to get around it without alternate control schemes, like modding the controller. I've dealt with similair stuff before, as I've been saying; N64 was southpaw. I got used to that. Then a lot of games on the Gamecube made me have to switch. I got used to that. It takes a little while to readapt to each, but I can go back and forth fairly well. I can't write for **** with my left hand, and I can't write very well with my right, either. And if a game is great, then it doesn't matter how the controls are unless it severely hinders you to the point where you can barely fight. And there's Easy mode. And there's the hope of a release patch, etc. etc.


1. so people should try and re-wire their controllers rather than developers adding an easy to fix option. you realize how insane this sounds? it's already been discussed that the default southpaw option in the dashboard can and is usually overridden by the game's programming.

2. it's not a large number of games where this is a problem, it's this game. take a look at the list i already provided. most developers embrace that *gasp* people are different.

3. it does. beyond having to adapt to play bioshock, is the problem of going back to play other games where you DO have legacy and southpaw options. this is a company providing a product and asking us to buy it. they are not *doing us a favor* by putting out a game. take off the corporate shill hat and put on a consumer hat for just a second. "Hrm, i can play mass effect and halo 3 where I own using, or I can fumble around awkardly in bioshock until my hands hurt... what do i do..."

4. not a single person here has said that this pissed them off enough to never buy the game, just not until they fix it with a patch. the concept of buying something unusable with the slim hope that the company will fix a problem they won't even comment on again is absurd.

do you seriously stop and read what you're writing? you're saying that people should spend money to buy what is suppossed to be entertainment, and either re-wire an electrical device or play in a way that is uncomfortable and by everyone in this thread but your admission, not fun.

[Shakura Jolithion]

wow, i didn't put a "zero" after what i wrote. that in no way affects the list

Don't confuse an old, great game with a new, mediocre one. And Perfect Dark was Southpaw only due to being on N64.


1. so people should try and re-wire their controllers rather than developers adding an easy to fix option. you realize how insane this sounds?
It doesn't sound insane at all. If people have problems with games to the point they won't even *buy* them for not having their preferred control scheme, then they should come up with their own solution for all the games that they *would* buy, seeing as how not every dev takes this into account.


MOD, not dashboard. Changing your dashboard isn't modding your controller. Modding your controller is switching the wires for the left and right triggers.

[quote]2. it's not a large number of games where this is a problem, it's this game.
And others.
take a look at the list i already provided. most developers embrace that *gasp* people are different.
12 shooters isn't most developers. Like I said, statistics.

3. it does. beyond having to adapt to play bioshock, is the problem of going back to play other games where you DO have legacy and southpaw options.
There won't be a problem because if you get used to Bioshock's defaults then you can just go and use those other games defaults. That's not hard to figure out... Because if you learn it good one way and somehow forget the other way, then you may as well stick with your one way unless forced to change. Not to mention becoming more ambidextrous can help greatly...
this is a company providing a product and asking us to buy it. they are not *doing us a favor* by putting out a game.
They're doing some of "us" a favor by making a gaming sequel to SS2 and putting lots of great stuff in it, rather than a lot of games that are just thrown together for cash. This game's one of the few that can be called art.
take off the corporate shill hat and put on a consumer hat for just a second.
I wear no corporate shill hat. That's like me telling you to take off the 'southpaw shill hat'.
"Hrm, i can play mass effect and halo 3 where I own using, or I can fumble around awkardly in bioshock until my hands hurt... what do i do..."
Learn how to not fumble around awkwardly, because you obviously won't be able to play properly anyway if you're only capable of using one thumb. Otherwise, you can get fairly decent pretty quickly. Not to mention, improving the weaker one will help you with your footwork if you go back to southpaw. That, and Halo 3 can't compare to Bioshock, and Bioshock comes out before both, by a month for Halo3 and two for Mass Effect. If you can't use both control sticks very well, you probably can't play many games very well to begin with.

4. not a single person here has said that this pissed them off enough to never buy the game, just not until they fix it with a patch. the concept of buying something unusable with the slim hope that the company will fix a problem they won't even comment on again is absurd.
I haven't seen anyone say they'd wait around for a patch. I've seen people doing minor flaming to Irrational for not having it, though. And it is *NOT UNUSABLE*. Look at the other controller threads; people have said things like "it only takes a day to get used to" and so on and so forth. And since you haven't noticed; the devs hardly comment in this forum at all. Why? Because they're busy. The 2k rep is on vacation. And even she doesn't get told everything.

do you seriously stop and read what you're writing?
Do you?
you're saying that people should spend money to buy what is suppossed to be entertainment,
If you want to play DVDs, you buy a DVD player. If it doesn't hook up to your TV, you go buy the proper cables. Same thing here; if the game doesn't work for you when you buy it, go get whatever's needed to fix it.
and either re-wire an electrical device or play in a way that is uncomfortable and by everyone in this thread but your admission, not fun.
It's not entirely rewiring an elictrical device. It's switching a couple wires and making sure they're attatched properly. I've seen people in the other threads say it is comfortable after a little while. Go use the search button if you really care. And I've played on some damnably uncomfortable controls, but I get used to them, rather than returning the game. You'd be surprised what you can get used to... Hell, I've gone from using a very low sensativity on my mouse in FPSes to above what most people use, just by practicing a little over time. It gets comfortable when you do it repeatedly, just like anything else in life, except for the few people who truly have hindering disabilities, like the one person with nerve damage in their right thumb. They are the only ones that *need* a specific control setup.

[KGBrAm]

It basically reads as the list of shooters worth playing on the system with few exceptions.

Armored Core 4
Call of Duty (2 and 3)
Condemned
FarCry
Halo (1, 2 and 3)
Gears of War
Ghost Recon (1 and 2)
Perfect Dark
Prey
Quake 4
Rainbow 6: Vegas
ShadowRun



Hi, let me chime in here for a minute.

I'm a 30 year old left handed hardcore gamer. I am also a game developer. I have played hundreds of games over the years and have never ever played southpaw or legacy unless I had to. (Only controls available)

The thing with that list up there is that all those games have one big thing in common they don't share with Bioshock.

Multi player.

I think you guys can manage to play through 20 hours of single player campaign with no human opponents twitching around, a big fat targeting reticule and a bit of auto-aim to help you out. :D

In MP games where reflexes actually count for a lot, I sympathize with all of you but come on, a nice slow paced horror-shooter like Bioshock can't be that hard to play through? Seriously?

What do you guys do when playing weird 3rd person view games or crazy asian stuff with wacky controls? You just don't play them? Must be boring as all hell to just play effing shooters all the time no?

None of you played Okami, Killer7, Resident Evil 4, Otogi 1+2, Beyond Good and Evil? etc etc etc

PLatformers? Racing Games? RTS's? RPG's?

All have different control schemes, a some completely different from the norm and a lot with no customization options.

You know most people adapt for the special game they want to play.

Enjoy not playing a game of the year candidate.


PS: On the developer side of things where does one stop accommodating certain accessibility features for small groups of players?

It starts with mandatory southpaw controls for all titles but where does it stop?

[b0ngo]

I think you guys can manage to play through 20 hours of single player campaign with no human opponents twitching around, a big fat targeting reticule and a bit of auto-aim to help you out.
You're right. I'm a southpaw-player since the launch of the N64, where this control scheme was standard and I played through games like Lost Planet or Call of Cthulhu which don't support southpaw. BUT I'm also an ambitious player which means that I want to complete the game I like on hard difficulty (and unlock the achievement - in the case of BioShock for example). Completing BioShock on Easy-Mode would be no problem for me (at least I had no problems in the demo), but getting the achievement for finishing the Hard-Mode is almost impossible with many years of southpaw-play. And I'm sure on the hardest difficulty Bioshock is not a "nice slow paced horror-shooter"...

PS: On the developer side of things where does one stop accommodating certain accessibility features for small groups of players?

It starts with mandatory southpaw controls for all titles but where does it stop?
That's correct, too. But why thinking of southpaw as a feature for small groups of players? It was one of the standard schemes on older consoles so for me the real question is why did developers drop it in the first place?

Well, since it's confirmed that BioShock has no southpaw-feature I will wait a month or two for a patch. Hopefully they will patch it, because I'd really like to FULLY enjoy this game with my good old southpaw ;)

Oh, and sorry for my bad english... I'm german :D

[Dez1013]

Shakura and everyone else whos arguing against lefty controls, I want to keep this simple.

It seems like a very simple thing to include alternate control options in a game. So why not include them and make playing smooth for everyone.

And shakura, please do not say "disabled", as I am not disabled in any way, it is just VERY HARD to play with default stick setup. I know you can't understand this since you use default but trust me, I can't just learn default or play for 2 days and get the hang of it, it just doesn't happen, and its not a handicap or a disability, its just hard to because I'm a lefty. If games came out with southpaw as default and lacked the default controls we're here arguments from your side.

A game should be simple to play, no one thinks too hard about the controller, it should be intuitive and happen as you interact with the game. We shouldn't have to learn a different configuration. Shakura, please don't argue against alternate control schemes, theres no reason to leave them out and they seem in the grand scheme of making the game somewhat easier to implement.

[NocE]

I really don't understand why - fortunately only few - developers don't include southpaw setup into their games. It should be a ' must have' requirement on all requirements lists, especially for shooters.

So instead of a 'win-win' we have a 'lose-lose' situation:
- the leftys want to play this game badly, but they're handicapped so the majority won't buy it, and so
- the developers will miss out on 10-15% of sales

I'm sure hoping for a patch, 'cause I want to play this game as well, but I doubt that this will happen. I don't even know if it's possible, I haven't seen it anywhere before on the X360.

[SpeckledJim]

I was referring to consoles. And consoles can't have teh same customization that PC players have because they don't have nearly as many keys and buttons, not to mention the Wii is the only thing that's like having a mouse.

Can't have the same customisation? That makes no sense, it's simply they choose the slightly easier option of leaving it out.


So you're saying that the great graphics and gameplay is well made but not well thought out? And you're saying the control scheme is unpleasant because you can't switch up the analog sticks? What about all the *other* controls? Eh?

What about the other controls? The key to an FPS is aiming. Aiming requires precision. It follows that aiming is best performed with your dominant hand. We just want the OPTION of being able to select that, without having to buy special controllers or break out the soldering iron. Not at all unreasonable given how little effort it requires on the part of the developer.


People got used to southpaw on the N64 when they had those, then they had to switch back to right handed for some of the other consoles.

Yes, I can see that must have been annoying. The problem there of course is that the controller only had one stick, so the direction buttons would have to go one side or the other, forcing it's use in one way. Happily now we have moved on to a two stick setup being the norm, so we should be able to choose whatever feels natural.

Also, looking at the XB360 controller, wouldn't you need to buy a new controller all together rather than having the sticks switched *if* you had a serious problem with using your right hand?

Again you seem to be under the impression we are unable to use our right hand at all, when that clearly isn't the case. It's all about being able to perform the task that requires the greatest fidelity with the hand that's more capable.

Now I could understand there being some resentment to having these options if their inclusion affected anyone else (they wouldn't), or were difficult or costly to implement (they aren't).

[allyh]

This is poor.... No option for us 10% of the population who are left handed.

In this day and age, it should be a standard option in games (and is for most), so why does what is being "raved" as a great game instantly un-playable by 10% of gamers????

It's not good enough to say "Well I'm left handed and have no problem" as there are varying levels of "left-handedness"

The Xboc 360 even has an option you can set within your profile for left handed, yet the latest game out isn't compatable with the 360's options??

Come on 2k, sort yourselves out, my copy is going straight back to the shop as it is completly unplayable by all left handers I know who've played it. 6 of which were desperate to buy this game before playing mine - they're getting something else with their money now.

Why do us left handers always get left out? It's not like it's difficult to add the option... You'd make more money too.

[Cheesecakecrush]

Shakura, your unwillingness to see a point different from your own is appalling. I'm right handed and I know what they're talking about. I refuse to buy a game that I can't play with my Left handed friends for several reasons.

For one, the default controls, for someone who's adapted to southpaw controls, are very unnatural and clumsy. I witnessed this with a friend trying to play Earth Defense Force 2017, which did not include alternate controls. He had to drop the sensitivity to near nothing so that he could aim reliably. And even then it was tough. Not all of us are capable of just "Switching" to an uncomfortable control scheme, and not being given the option to switch to a more familiar control scheme is a slap in the face. If "default" controls were left out in favor of southpaw? What then? Would you buy the game and force yourself to play in a way that wasn't natural? Or would you skip it in favor of a game that wasn't going to just leave out a large population of potential buyers and include righty controls?

You'd say you would just to try to prove me wrong, but we all know better. Not including Southpaw controls is like a building without wheelchair ramps. Sure, they can get up the steps eventually, and with a great deal of difficulty, but if the builders had thought to put in a wheelchair ramp it'd be easier on everyone, not just those restricted to wheelchairs. People who need crutches, or walkers, or even just the lazy could go up the wheelchair ramp too. The building is the game. We all want to go in, but making it difficult for people who can't climb stairs isn't fair to them.

What the people want is for the game companies to CONSIDER them when building their game. For them to HAVE the option to switch their controls. Even shoddy, rushed, glitchy games are much more fun than the best, bug free, beautiful game if you can play like you're used to. Even the best made games are ruined with crappy controls.

[b0ngo]

I'm sure hoping for a patch, 'cause I want to play this game as well, but I doubt that this will happen. I don't even know if it's possible, I haven't seen it anywhere before on the X360.
It is possible. When Far Cry Instincts (Xbox) was released, it had no southpaw. A couple of months later a patch came out and southpaw control scheme was available. Same thing with Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter on the 360...

And it's not only the left-handed people... I'm right-handed and play southpaw, too. And I think there are more right-handed, who played southpaw on N64 etc. So maybe it's even more than those 10-15%.

[NocE]

It is possible. When Far Cry Instincts (Xbox) was released, it had no southpaw. A couple of months later a patch came out and southpaw control scheme was available. Same thing with Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter on the 360...

Alrightee...let's hope so :)

And it's not only the left-handed people... I'm right-handed and play southpaw, too. And I think there are more right-handed, who played southpaw on N64 etc. So maybe it's even more than those 10-15%.

I know...I'm right handed myself :cool:

[Shakura Jolithion]

Shakura, your unwillingness to see a point different from your own is appalling.
I see clearly and have explained why I don't submit to it.
I'm right handed and I know what they're talking about. I refuse to buy a game that I can't play with my Left handed friends for several reasons. Then they can get used to the controls the way all the right handed people got used to the N64 (those that've played on it).

For one, the default controls, for someone who's adapted to southpaw controls, are very unnatural and clumsy. I witnessed this with a friend trying to play Earth Defense Force 2017, which did not include alternate controls. He had to drop the sensitivity to near nothing so that he could aim reliably. And even then it was tough. Not all of us are capable of just "Switching" to an uncomfortable control scheme, and not being given the option to switch to a more familiar control scheme is a slap in the face. If "default" controls were left out in favor of southpaw? What then? Would you buy the game and force yourself to play in a way that wasn't natural?
Yes, and I have done it before. Every N64 title I have, switching from that to gamecube, playing Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (where you had to hold your crosshair in position and it would snap back to normal, which was it's biggest problem).
Or would you skip it in favor of a game that wasn't going to just leave out a large population of potential buyers and include righty controls?
I don't care about who's left out if I'm playing single player. If I'm playing multiplayer with friends, maybe, but with something as big as Bioshock, which, imo, is the best shooter to date, and isn't just a bunch of twitchmania, I'd say I'd go ahead with uncomfortable controls. I enjoy Turok 2, despite never, ever, ever getting used to the crosshairs snapping to neutral.

You'd say you would just to try to prove me wrong, but we all know better.
Now you're presuming things.
Not including Southpaw controls is like a building without wheelchair ramps.
So now you're relating being left handed to being severely disabled?
Sure, they can get up the steps eventually, and with a great deal of difficulty, but if the builders had thought to put in a wheelchair ramp it'd be easier on everyone, not just those restricted to wheelchairs.
I doubt the vast majority of people who use southpaw would have even remotely as much difficulty going through on normal or easy mode in comparison to people in wheelchairs going up stairs.
People who need crutches, or walkers, or even just the lazy could go up the wheelchair ramp too. The building is the game. We all want to go in, but making it difficult for people who can't climb stairs isn't fair to them.
Learn to crawl before you can walk. If you stick with one control scheme, you end up cutting yourself off in other games, too. Regardless of whether someone sticks with left or right.

What the people want is for the game companies to CONSIDER them when building their game. For them to HAVE the option to switch their controls.
Or for the XB360 to override the games in terms of analog sticks, instead of the other way round, as has been stated before.
Even shoddy, rushed, glitchy games are much more fun than the best, bug free, beautiful game if you can play like you're used to.
You say that now, but I've yet to meet anyone IRL who thinks that way.
And FYI, there are some shoddy, rushed, glitchy games which are much more difficult to play due to all those things than trying a totally random control scheme on, for example, an FPS that gets nearly all 100s.
Even the best made games are ruined with crappy controls.
Bioshock has *great* controls. People have said that before. The only problem is that some people choose not to try switching from their preference, and a very, very small minority of people have disabling problems (as in nerve damage, etc., not left handed people in general) and will not be able to play it well.

[Dez1013]

You're missing the point entirely Shakura.

There is no reason to exclude alternate controls schemes at all. No one is hurt by adding them to the options, so why not include them.

I've said this before but you can't get it through that thick ****ing skull of yours.

I CANNOT LEARN DEFAULT. IT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME. AND WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY A GAME WHEN IT SHOULD BE INTUITIVE.

I can pop in Halo, turn on southpaw and play just fine. If the game doesn't have lefty controls, I can't play it, it isn't possible and theres no reason to learn how to control something from a different control scheme when lefty is what I know.

You are a ****ing idiot, hang yourself

[NocE]

I've said this before but you can't get it through that thick ****ing skull of yours.

Amen brother ;)

[SpeckledJim]

It's a waste of time trying to convince him. Let's just hope 2K Games are a little more receptive to the concept of choice, because as it stands I wouldn't buy the 360 version no matter how highly it scores in reviews. The bottom line is that for me, without southpaw it's unplayable.

[Shakura Jolithion]

You're missing the point entirely Shakura.

There is no reason to exclude alternate controls schemes at all. No one is hurt by adding them to the options, so why not include them.
Why forgo a game just because it doesn't have your preferred control setup?

I CANNOT LEARN DEFAULT. IT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME. AND WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY A GAME WHEN IT SHOULD BE INTUITIVE.
It is intuitive. The control sticks are two of many controls. Other people have to learn to play games with different controls, not every game has the same controls. All you're doing is learning to use your thumbs for different things, similair to how some games have you using different buttons/triggers for diefferent things.

I can pop in Halo, turn on southpaw and play just fine.
As someone mentioned before; Bioshock isn't multiplayer, where control setup has to be absolutely perfect for people to twitch their best.
If the game doesn't have lefty controls, I can't play it,
Then why can so many others play it, why can rightys play lefty controls?
it isn't possible
Never know until you try.
and theres no reason to learn how to control something from a different control scheme when lefty is what I know.
How about the reason that you're missing out on one of the best games of all time? Or that there are many games that don't have your prefferred control? There's plenty of reasons. You just don't want to listen to them.

[Cheesecakecrush]

Ok, so its clear now: You're just here to antagonize people who want a simple option to make the game easier for them to play implemented. That is the definition of a troll.

Sorry, nobody here agree's with you.

FAILTALITY.

[Brutal Deluxe]

You clearly don't get it. I've been playing games since the 8-bit computers (ZX Spectrum to be precise) and they managed to have completely customisable controls (for the keyboard, anyway) way back in the 80's

They didn't have a shiny API to do the work for them either.

Essentially, there are three types of controls (excluding Back, Guide and Start, which aren't used for game play)

Stick axis (analogue)
Buttons (digital) (bumpers, face buttons, stick buttons)
Triggers (analogue)

Once button functions are implemented, they are mapped to the buttons. Swapping mappings between controls of the same type should be trivial. (a face button to a bumper, or swapping and axis on a stick)

I see no reason why this should not be implemented in a game. If I have spent (a not inconsiderable amount of money) on a game, I should have the ability to configure my only method of interacting with the game to my own preferences, no matter what those preferences are. If I want to have Look Up/Down and Walk Forward/Backward on the same stick (despite the stupidness of this) I should be able to do it.

I see leaving out alternative control schemes to be as dumb as the whole Dead Rising 'tiny text on SD TVs' thing, saying 'mod your controller!' is like Capcom saying 'buy a HD TV!' (note that Capcom realised how dumb this stance is, as Lost Planet was changed to include text that scaled up for SD TVs between the Demo release and Retail)


As to users of Southpaw or Legacy, why should they have to relearn how to play the game if they don't want to?

And I can't see how the N64 was Southpaw? As I've always used the stick with my right hand. If you mean Legacy, well... yeah, thats where Legacy came from.

[nakedcowboy]

And I can't see how the N64 was Southpaw? As I've always used the stick with my right hand. If you mean Legacy, well... yeah, thats where Legacy came from.

this is correct. i gave up trying to correct him/her/it a couple days ago but this is accurate. i actually had this discussion with a guy who worked at gamestop when i preordered halo 3 a few days ago since it was fresh on my mind. I asked him what he thought of bioshock and he said he stopped playing the demo after 15 minutes because he hates shooters that, as he described it, "don't have the setup that goldeneye had". I informed him that it was called legacy and pointed out a few other games that did support it.

[KGBrAm]

Once button functions are implemented, they are mapped to the buttons. Swapping mappings between controls of the same type should be trivial.

Nothing is ever 'trivial' when you play with millions of lines of code sir.

Not extremely complex? Sure.

Nothing about game dev is 'trivial' thank you very much.


Yours truly,
A game Dev.

[Thuraya]

Most of us realize that nothing about game dev is trivial, it's just frustrating spending months on this thread and never getting an answer. I know a guy that works at Bioware and he asked them to put southpaw into ME and was told it wasn't high on the priority list because not enough of the gamers were effected by it being left out. Companies who end up pushing their games back cut out the things they don't personally deem important. This actually means that players who are effected need to start making themselves heard. My friend says it's relatively easy to put into the game, it's just not important enough to bother with. Nice huh. :(

[dark54555]

I hope Take2 wasn't planning on BioShock alone keeping the company afloat this holiday, because between the lack of controls on the 360 version and the lack of SM2.0 support on the PC version, they've alienated and pissed off a lot of gamers.

And because of that, they're losing sales in a big way.

[User4]

Here the response I got from 2K games

"Unfortunately, there is no support for Southpaw on the PC/X360 version of the game.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Stuart McKie"

Crap. Gonna miss this fantastic game I guess

[Kevin13]

Thanks alot 2K, thank you all the way to hell. :mad: No southpaw config means I get to return my game once it arrives (ordered online a month ago), and get a couple of preowned games instead.

Bioshock is only the second FPS I've bought since the N64 days that did not support a southpaw config (the other being Area 51). And I've played lots of console FPS's.

Sorry you guys couldn't be bothered to implement it. Maybe you'll consider it for the sequel. And maybe I'll consider buying it.

[SpeckledJim]

Nothing is ever 'trivial' when you play with millions of lines of code sir.

Not extremely complex? Sure.

Nothing about game dev is 'trivial' thank you very much.


Yours truly,
A game Dev.


Well speaking as a games programmer, I'd have to disagree with you about that. Certain things are trivial to implement. Alternate controls being one of them. Are you trying to suggest there might be dire consequences from adding a few ifs to a pad reading function? Anyone writing code that falls over from those kinds of changes ought to think about a new career.

[User4]

Well speaking as a games programmer, I'd have to disagree with you about that. Certain things are trivial to implement. Alternate controls being one of them. Are you trying to suggest there might be dire consequences from adding a few ifs to a pad reading function? Anyone writing code that falls over from those kinds of changes ought to think about a new career.


Ah thanks SpeckledJim. I was wondering what kind of work it takes to implement this. If it's not a big deal, why don't they add it? They can't have just forgotten to do it...it just doesn't make sense. One little thing to make the game accessible to like 10,000 more people...

[jct_02]

2K definately needs to fix this ASAP.... im right handed and i use Southpaw... and yes im better with southpaw i cant aim for **** wit the right analog......i already own the game cuz im stoopid and didnt do my research and im tired of being PWNED by big daddies because i cant aim properly...... if we can but man on the moon then 2K can give us Southpaw dammit!

[Kevin13]

Why is it that development teams at Rare, EA, Sony, Bungie, Epic, Acclaim, Criterion, Sega, Starbreeze, Free Radical, and Infinity Ward to name but a few can be bothered to put configurable controller options in their console shooters, but 2K Boston/Irrational felt it to be a waste of time and effort?

My waste of time and effort (and money) was drooling over Bioshock for the past 12 months, following every news article and screenshot, letting it become my most anticipated title for 2007, and prepurchasing it online -- all assuming the devs at Irrational would be as diligent and thoughtful as the vast majority of other developers of console FPS's when it came to allowing controller options.

Was this a conscious decision or was it an oversight? Will there be a patch to correct it? And why haven't these frequently repeated questions been addressed yet by any of the 2K reps here?? :confused:

[nakedcowboy]

They haven't answered because the answer isn't something we want to hear. I've tried PMs and emails, this thread is huge, there have been a solid dozen other threads on this issue, etc.

[User4]

They haven't answered because the answer isn't something we want to hear. I've tried PMs and emails, this thread is huge, there have been a solid dozen other threads on this issue, etc.


With all the other crap they're under right now (widescreen issues, copyright protection) we won't see anything about southpaw for a while if at all. Such a simple thing...just not priority...I really wish I could play this game :(

[Beelzebozo]

I signed up specifically for this thread, because this just ticks me off.

I was only partially paying attention to Bioshock when I first heard about it and was kind of interested in it when the first screenshots came out and the first knowledge of the storyline. But what really hooked me was the XBL demo. But the part that sucked was no left-handed mode. I managed to get through on Easy and had a nasty headache to two hours afterward, but I still really wanted the game and even dove in a couple more times to show friends. And I wasn't too worried because I've had demos that came out before with no left-handed controls and the full version had southpaw, so no problems, right?

I was wrong and so disappointed.

Every indication is that I won't be able to play this game. As I mentioned before, I get a splitting headache if I try to play an FPS in right-handed mode and I'm about as good at playing righty as a one-eyed Jack Thompson. I also don't own a PC. I work and play almost exclusively on Macs and all of them are PPC, which means I can't dual-boot. The PCs I have can barely run XP, let alone this game and I don't have the money for the upgrades, which is why I mostly use a console.

Please, Please, PLEASE! Make a patch for the 360 that will let me flip the sticks or include keyboard & mouse support for the 360.

Either that or someone start making a 360 controller that you can flip a switch to put it into left-handed mode.

[jct_02]

We Want Southpaw!! We Want Southpaw!!! Internet Riot!!!

[matt_d]

I too signed up specifically for this thread. I read everything up to about page 8 and then couldn't take much more so skimed the rest.

It is completely unacceptable to produce a game with no option for southpaw play. That's it. There is no grey area.

Many others have already made articulate posts (cheesecake, dez etc) explaining why this is so I won't repeat their words. I just wanted to add another name to the list of unhappy 'potential' customers.

[jct_02]

im just posting again to bump this topic.... the team at 2k need to fix this.. i understand they wanna make things right for the PC gmaers and whatnot but 360 owners matter too.

[seriously]

Patching the game up so it includes left handed controls means more people are gonna buy the game = greater revenues for 2K. A simple business rule: its really in their interest to fix this.

[jct_02]

bump......................

[Kevin13]

:mad: Really, what the hell? I scoured the Xbox 360 web forums and found many threads complaining about the lack of southpaw and legacy control options. 2K must've received hundreds of emails on the subject (including my own); right here on the damned 2K forums there've been several long threads asking for answers (or at the very least, f'ing acknowledgement) from the 2K reps that supposedly populate these boards.

I don't know whether to keep my game or to return it. It'll arrive any day now (ordered it online a month ago). Will the 360 game get patched to support other controller options or not? An answer one way or the other would be very much appreciated 2K.

[nakedcowboy]

just return it and write an email to every email on the site you can find to let them know why. you can always rebuy it, but you're not sending a message in dollars by holding on it it, hoping, and maybe losing your chance to return it.

[Beelzebozo]

I mean, the damage is already done. So just create a patch on XBL for us to download. How hard can that be? Com'on guys.

[jct_02]

I mean, the damage is already done. So just create a patch on XBL for us to download. How hard can that be? Com'on guys.

i second that motion

[User4]

From Kotaku, a quote from Ken Levine on the recent Bioshock problems:

“People had just bought the game, spent $50 and they go home and they find out they can’t run it. That ain’t good.”

Hmmm, kind of like the people who can’t play it because you haven’t added alternate control layouts? Well they spent $50 and can’t play it either so where’s the love Ken Levine?

My $50 is just as good as someone complaining about widescreen or download issues, it’s just as unplayable to a southpaw player as it is to someone who can’t download the game properly. So if 2K is so concerned about an individual paying $50 for nothing, why don’t they comment on this issue?

I’ll tell you why, it’s because they couldn’t give a rats ass about a few people spending $50, it’s all about a large amount of $50 purchases not being able to play the game. That’s fine, that’s business, but don’t spin it like you care about my $50 2K, you obviously don’t.

[seriously]

$50? here its £50 ($100) and I along with another lefty haven't forked out the cash for lack of southpaw controls. I'm thinking there should besome sort of usabilty standard that developers or whoever have to read so this don't happen again.

[Kevin13]

Xbox 360 games are $60 in the US, although I can't complain in this case since I got it for $45 total shipped from LionGames.com (http://www.liongames.com) (check em out).

Still, I just received it yesterday, haven't opened it yet, hoping for some response from 2K regarding controller configs (ie, southpaw), either here in the forums or via email. An email response from 2K stated my concern was being forwarded to the appropriate entity and that a full reply will come in 24 hours. That was 72 hours ago..

I won't have any free time to return the game til Friday. If I haven't heard from by then I'm returning it. Too many hot games coming out soon for me to hold a torch for this one. If 2K can't be bothered to even acknowledge our concern, much less address it, then screw em, I'll use my refunded Bioshock money to get Halo3 or Eternal Sonata next month.

[capnhowdy]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

YOU HAVE BEE ASSIMOOLATED!!!!!

[SAKY]

If 2K games releases a patch they better be sure to include Legacy control options :mad: NOT SOUTHPAW ONLY:mad:

I'm a southpaw player but I don't want my alienated brethren excluded either!!!

SAKY
AltCntrlGmr.com FUBU

[SQU1FFY v2]

When I first posted this question I was hoping for a honest answer from the development team, this never came the only reply was from Elizabeth 2K saying she was left handed but plays right handed on the keyboard and mouse.

So what

I don't play keyboard and mouse I play console controler and I play left handed and for your information E2K I'm right handed.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the simpsons the one where milhouse's parents split up, milhouse's dad is called into the bosses office and fired he's told " we're a family cracker business, single people may eat our crackers but we don't care."

Ditto 2K games "We're a games developer, Alternative control gamers may want to play our game but we don't care."

There has still been no offical response from the 2K team on this subject so I can only say is that they don't care about Alternative Control Gamers. In short they are discriminating against us gamers that cannot or will not adapt, I mean at the end of the day why should we conform to what they say is the norm.

I though we lived in a society that encouraged freedom of choice.

[Dez1013]

Lets send the message to 2k and other developers who won't include, southpaw, legacy, or legacy southpaw. We will not buy your game, we will not purchase your game on the promise of a patch. Include these options so that everyone has a chance of playing your game COMFORTABLY!

I will not be buying ANY 2k games at all until they recognize the need for alternative layouts.

[Kevin13]

Well, that's that. I just got my money refunded for buying this (for me) unplayable game. I'll now use that cash to preorder Halo3 or something else upcoming. Too many exciting games coming out soon for me to worry about this one any more. If 2K does decide to do what all the other competent FPS developers out there do, which is to provide us with some configurable controls, maybe I'll look for the game sometime in 2008. I'll wait til it's down to $20 and I have some free time, and will probably buy a pre-owned version just to give an "F You" to 2K for this BS.:mad:

It's a shame that 2K's public relations dept. sucks ass. They've had plenty of time to address our plethora of posts and emails, but instead chose silence in the (perhaps wise) hope that we'll soon grow silent as well. I'll continue to monitor the goings-on here and post my thoughts from time to time, but for the most part I've moved on.

[Beelzebozo]

Lets send the message to 2k and other developers who won't include, southpaw, legacy, or legacy southpaw. We will not buy your game, we will not purchase your game on the promise of a patch. Include these options so that everyone has a chance of playing your game COMFORTABLY!

I won't purchase the game until after that patch is up and available and not a moment afterward.

[Beelzebozo]

excuse me, "not a moment before".

[hmace]

The thing that drives me crazy is trying to use the UI to assign things or hack on the PC version. Bioshock doesn't recognize the fact I've swapped my primary and secondary mouse buttons, and it only recognizes the left mouse button for hacking or selecting. I've short circuited a number of hacks, and failed to properly slot plasmids due to this.

[citizen6]

holy jeebus..please patch the controls. does a forum not suggest a response from someone....what the fek r u lunatics thinking. a truly wonderful game like this and so many of us cannot play it properly. answer the question.

[Kevin13]

Interesting, Irrational (or 2K Boston) ... The new demo for TimeShift is up on Xbox Live Marketplace, and guess what? It includes Southpaw, Legacy, and Southpaw Legacy control schemes in addition to the standard default scheme. I guess by making a game that I can actually play they're interested in getting my money! What a concept! :eek:

[Kevin13]

^Saber Interactive is the developer of TimeShift, btw. Perhaps 2K Boston developers could do an internship over at Saber Interactive's to learn a little about FPS control design.

[5seconds]

I just bought BioShock yesterday, and I will try to return it today. (I say try, BestBuy will not exchange open video games except for an identical item. I wish I found this thread before i bought the game)

I have been playing with the Legacy scheme for 11 years, and while it's very easy for others to say "learn the default scheme" it is not that easy in practice. It would be the same as me telling those players to force themselves to play Legacy, you wouldn't even consider it.

I am disappointed that no one from 2K has not addressed the issue. Even a confirmation that a patch is not forthcoming would be nice. I'm also disappointed that I will not be able to play the game, but maybe lessons will be learned for future titles. Halo 3 and COD4 will do just fine.

[Beelzebozo]

I am disappointed that no one from 2K has not addressed the issue. Even a confirmation that a patch is not forthcoming would be nice. I'm also disappointed that I will not be able to play the game, but maybe lessons will be learned for future titles. Halo 3 and COD4 will do just fine.

That's what I'd like to see... "We have no plans to patch the 360 version of Bioshock for left-handed or legacy players". Then I don't bother with the game ever again. I remove it from my Amazon wishlist and instead spend my money on a game that I can play... like Halo 3 or some other company that wants my money.

[5seconds]

Of course, BestBuy will not exchange open software unless it is 'defective' And while I would consider it defective, I guess it is subjective... And even if I can exchange it, they would only give me another copy of the same game... *sigh*

[HWNDarkside]

I've signed up to the forum just post comment about this

Another £40 wasted on a premium title too lazy to offer user-definable controls or southpaw option.

I've just spent £60 on eBay for a modded controller which switches the sticks around permanently - an extreme measure to play a game I've already paid top price for.

And 2K can't be bothered to comment? I shall think twice before buying any further games from them.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[User4]

Here's a reply I got from 2K Elizabeth, interpret it how you will, but at least they've read the thread :)


"i think that it's on their list of things to think about. i certainly have let them know!"


So at least the admin has voiced our concern; it's a start

[5seconds]

"List of things to think about" = Not even on their radar = Returning the game tonight.

Saying that, I will re-buy it once a patch is out, but not before.

[xylvb]

It's so frustrating not to be able to really enjoy playing this great game.

2k, PLEASE give us a patch!

[Beelzebozo]

So there's a 360 patch out. An word about change in controls?

[nakedcowboy]

apparently the answer is no

[5seconds]

I wrote to tech support about this before I even knew these forums existed, and I was told I would get a reply within 24 hours. It's now 192 hours later, and still nothing. What gives 2K? At least a reply saying "We have no plans at this time..." would be preferable to the brick wall I am currently facing.

Why tell people that you will provide an answer in 24 hours when you seem to have no interest in doing so. Maybe you should update your auto-reply saying that you will send an answer in a week or two, so people at least don't wait on your answer.

[reclinemusic]

Just another person who signed up for the 2k message boards to say that I won't purchase Bioshock until it is patched to allow southpaw controls. How hard can it be, seriously?

[Kevin13]

Ah, here's an email response I got (3 weeks later...) from 2K about patching the 360 version with configurable controls:

Response (Robert Parkinson) 15/09/2007 01.26 PM

Hello,

Unfortunately we are only technical support and we do not have any information on what you ask.

There are no patches as far as im aware, the only thing i can advise is to keep checking the 2Kgames web site for any updates.

How insightful. Screw it, I've moved on.

[Happy Friend]

It was funny: I started the game and realized that the controls were backwards. I was not too surprised. I paused it and looked for an option to change it on the pause menu. There wasn't any. I thought that it was probably on the main menu. It still hadn't occured to me that they could have left it off. After all, console FPSs have had customizing option since N64days.

I still can't believe they did this. 10% of the population is left handed, but I think that more than that number uses southpaw controls (I think due to N64).

I wonder if the 360 Bioshock was not tested with a dedicated console playing group using XBox 360 pads, because odds are that if it were, one of the testers would have said "Hey guys, we have a big problem!"

The game would actually be easier to play if I had never played a console FPS before. At least then I wouldn't have the controls ingrained in my brain.

I played through a lot of the game (on easy) but don't want to finish it because playing it w/ backwards controls makes me suck at Halo 3.

I wouldn't have bought the game if I had known about this beforehand. I did not even think a developer could be this stupid. I will check for this in the future before I buy.

Seriously 2K, WTF?

[Ramenbowl]

Just another southpaw signing up to convey my dissatisfaction with the developers ignorance of left-handers. A good 10-20% of the market they have excluded for only a mere minutes? hours? work.

:( Looks like an incredible game too..

[Death]

i'm lefthanded, but i always mouse and game as a righthander. i guess i learned too young and so just got assimilated.

I have the urge to ask stupid questions. Like. So do you turn the controller around and use it like that? Or just put your hands on the opposite side of the controller?

[StevetheBigDaddy]

Just another southpaw signing up to convey my dissatisfaction with the developers ignorance of left-handers. A good 10-20% of the market they have excluded for only a mere minutes? hours? work.

:( Looks like an incredible game too..
You, play right handed regardless, nao. I'm amazed at how there's a COMMUNITY devoted to stalking gaming forums. XD

"There is no left handed controller support for the game at this time and there are no plans for future implementation. Please refer to my PM for your other question.”
There's the answer for the left handed configuration possibilitys.

Nu.

[yogibbear]

I'm a lefty but use my controller/mouse like a righty. :eek:

But... the lack of fully customizable controls in this game is outrageous.

I swear it would be easier to let us customise ANY buttons we damn well please... but NoooooOOoo 2k have to control that too. :mad:

Oh and any update on a patch???... this is ridiculous. Almost 3 months now...

[Ramenbowl]

Believe me, I TRIED to play this game right-handed. I absolutely love the game. However, when it required more than just standing there slowwwlly aiming up enemies the game difficulty was overwhelming, and rather than fully enjoying the experience I spent most of the time frustrated at mis-aiming horribly and feeling clumsy.

Honestly, how long does it take to implement left-handed controls? Or even customizable controls? When you spend X months developing the game, to satisfy a minority in the market (well as minor as 10-20%), isn't it worth it? I'd imagine it to take hours at most to implement..

Some people ARE perfectly ambidextrous and can capably play games with either hand, but unfortunately I'm not. I might as well play with my foot when it comes to my right hand for precision aiming. It's easy for you guys to say 'stop whining and just adapt', but I'm sure we would have alot more whiners on here if the default controls were for a left-hander. My learned gaming config is for my left hand, 'unlearning' it to reconfigure it for a right-handed style is extremely difficult.. and it probably isn't worth it if it means I sacrifice other games where the developers were considerate enough to facilitate for multiple controller options.

[Beelzebozo]

You, play right handed regardless, nao. I'm amazed at how there's a COMMUNITY devoted to stalking gaming forums. XD


There's the answer for the left handed configuration possibilitys.

Nu.

You lose for trolling. You make fun of blind people, too?

I heard something about a patch for the "widescreen issue" on Kotaku. Any chance that there's a thumbstick patch on it as well?

[StevetheBigDaddy]

I remember seeing a fix for that on Gamespot in thier Bioshock download section.

Any chance that there's a thumbstick patch on it as well?
There is no left handed controller support for the game at this time and there are no plans for future implementation.
You're blind like the blind people. ._.'

[Beelzebozo]

I remember seeing a fix for that on Gamespot in thier Bioshock download section.

You're blind like the blind people. ._.'

People do change their minds and companies can change policies once they realize they've made a bad mistake. The idea that we might make 2K realize that they managed to overlook 10-20% of the population might make a difference.

I'm really hoping that you a just a fan and not in any way related to 2K. Because if you are, that speaks very poorly of the attitudes of 2K toward their customers.

It's getting to the point that I doubt I'm going to spring for a hard-wired lefthanded controller. At least not for BioShock. There are plenty of other 360 games out there that I can put my money toward. Complain all you want about Halo 3 or Orange Box but at least THEY put in left handed controls.

[User4]

Wow. I am really disappointed with 2K and this patch. 15 pages dedicated to the southpaw issue and no fix included in the patch. Things like “fix for rare hang when a lot of things are going on” are more important I guess because the rare amounts of people complaining already own the game. Well that won’t be a problem for me because I’m not going to own this game, nor will I purchase anything 2K related in the future. I waited to see if they’d make an effort to include a wider fan base but I guess not. Thank the gods they fixed the rare glitches though, or else people might not be able to play this game at all…

[yogibbear]

Thank the gods they fixed the rare glitches though, or else people might not be able to play this game at all…

Actually they haven't even done that yet.

Still crashes to desktop for heaps of us PC users. We documented it just as much as you SouthPaw guys and gals did. But 2k just completely ignores anyone that pokes their finger out and goes "2k, fix this please? You know i gave you my money...i want something back?"

At this point 2k runs off in their luxury cruiser to their new offices with Water Cannons to stop us rampaging down their doors...

But i digress

Pretty pathetic that they couldn't even be bothered to spend the 5 minutes it would take someone to let Xbox/PC users customise the controls FULLY such that SouthPaw was easy enough to setup.

Pity they didn't properly fix the mouse accel.

Pity they didn't fix half of the sound issues.

Pity the patch is a load of crap.

Epic fixed more wrong with UT3 in 2 weeks than 2k did in 3 and a half months.

Pathetic.

[Beelzebozo]

Screwed the pooch... that's what they've done. Ya know, I was kind of tempted to go back on my word and purchase the game once I got my hands on a hardwired southpaw controller, but I'm looking at ALL the fixes they put in, including new Plasmoids and Achievements, and not ONE mention of Southpaw or Legacy or anything.

Back in the day, it was somewhat forgivable to not have a left-handed option, because once the game was out.. it was out. You couldn't really fix it. But now there is XBL and hard drives on consoles. You CAN fix, you just refuse to. So, if I manage to ever get a hardwired controller, I'll just use it to play the original X-Box games I couldn't play before. And maybe, just maybe, once the game is in the clearance bin, or I get it as a gift, or it's available used for cheap, (say, under $10) then I MIGHT pick it up.

I'm done with this forum unless something really changes. News of a patch gave me reason to hope. I guess it was for naught.

[User4]

OK, so now that Bioshock 2 is official, and doesn't come out until Q4 2009, can you please take the time to implement southpaw and other alternate control schemes?

Thanks