Governments are lame

[The_World]

I'm all about diversity of choice. Most of the things in this game seem open enough to allow for freedom of choice. Governments are not.

Let's look at them step by step.

DESPOTISM:
You start with it, does nothing. Move on.

REPUBLIC:
The most unique government in the game. Ultimately, once you have no need for settlers, as useless as Despotism.

MONARCHY:
A joke. What does it do exactly? Double your PALACE CULTURE bonus?!? :confused:

FUNDAMENTALISM:
Completely unbalanced in the first 20 turns of the game, rather useless later on. Sure, it gives a nice bonus but its disadvantage is just ridicolous.

COMMUNISM:
Great bonus, another unbearable disadvantage. Useful sometimes, suicide most of the time.

DEMOCRACY:
Dangerous in the early game as it shuts down special culture bonuses (such as the palace). Completely obvious and the only good choice throughout the entire game. Weaknesses? None. Sure, you supposedly can't go to war; and you can't, but only against the AI. You can wreck human opponents all day long!

Ultimately, everyone has to go into Democracy or lose. Wow, that's some freedom of choice...:(

[MorteEterna]

I'm all about diversity of choice. Most of the things in this game seem open enough to allow for freedom of choice. Governments are not.

Let's look at them step by step.

DESPOTISM:
You start with it, does nothing. Move on.

Agree

REPUBLIC:
The most unique government in the game. Ultimately, once you have no need for settlers, as useless as Despotism.

Agree

MONARCHY:
A joke. What does it do exactly? Double your PALACE CULTURE bonus?!? :confused:

Never used, however your palace produce culture, not the capital, so you gain 6 not 3 at the beginning

FUNDAMENTALISM:
Completely unbalanced in the first 20 turns of the game, rather useless later on. Sure, it gives a nice bonus but its disadvantage is just ridicolous.

Not ridicolous, religion doesn't like science

COMMUNISM:
Great bonus, another unbearable disadvantage. Useful sometimes, suicide most of the time.

Suicide? No, only more production, no culture for temples is not a suicide..

DEMOCRACY:
Dangerous in the early game as it shuts down special culture bonuses (such as the palace). Completely obvious and the only good choice throughout the entire game. Weaknesses? None. Sure, you supposedly can't go to war; and you can't, but only against the AI. You can wreck human opponents all day long!

In the early democracy is dangerous for no culture, that's true

Ultimately, everyone has to go into Democracy or lose. Wow, that's some freedom of choice...:(

That's not right

Read there, that's what I think about governments

[The_World]

As usual, your arguments are really exhaustive ...:)

Ok, I'll give you that shutting down temples is not necessarily suicide, but all in all Communism is a marginal government. The only true power lies in Democracy!

[munchingfoo]

Okay - so here's my take.

Despotism - a necessary government type to give those that start with a government the bonus they deserve.

Monarchy - This is useful very early on (So basically, England) - firstly to unlock dye (sweet) but also for the palace culture bonus. Look how quickly england's borders grow. It's almost as good as France's cathedral in the early game.

Republic - switch to this as soon as you can to expand

Democracy - switch to this when you have it and enough cities

Communism - switch to this when you have decided you are in the end game - you can't rush world bank/U.N. so this bonus is great. It might also be good if you have **** gold per turn. You can use this to increase the production speed end game units.


So, in conclusion, each government (appart from despotism) has it's bonuses, and all of them are useful. You just need to learn when to use each one!

[Markwah]

Agree 100% with munchingfoo.

Quick note for The_World....despotism is about as much use as the Arabs.....lol

[eireksten]

I also think all the governments has their uses.

Fundamentalism doesn't "obsolete". It will always have the power to turn the tide of a war. At least way beyond the first 20-40 turns. They give +25% to knights, for instance, and thats BEFORE all the other bonuses apply. I think if it can make you win the war, shutting down science buildings for a while isn't all that bad.

Communism is also great whenever you need to build a lot of things (or something expensive), be it before a war, racing to a wonder, you name it.

[Laelithar]

Personally if I am playing for a domination win I actually rather value communism. Sure my armies may be down a few points if I am going against a Fundamentalist, but the increased production means I am pumping out more armies. Not to mention it means I can build the Military Industrial Complex that much sooner.

[KAGE]

DEMOCRACY:
Dangerous in the early game as it shuts down special culture bonuses (such as the palace). Completely obvious and the only good choice throughout the entire game. Weaknesses? None. Sure, you supposedly can't go to war; and you can't, but only against the AI. You can wreck human opponents all day long!

Ultimately, everyone has to go into Democracy or lose. Wow, that's some freedom of choice...:(

the weakness doesn't even matter against the AI because ever culture will declare war on you in the end anyway. So, this is a non existant weakness in my opinion.

[Keen1]

the weakness doesn't even matter against the AI because ever culture will declare war on you in the end anyway. So, this is a non existant weakness in my opinion.

While this may be the case, the AI tends to request peace just before you take over their cities which can be extremely frustrating.

[Hellogoodbye123]

.....i agree with what you have to say....i mostly stick with monarchy...for the culture, am the french so i get double palace, and a cathedral....

[The_World]

... Pointless to persist.

[AoR Dewman]

Your views on the subject were very close minded. One must realize that all of the governments have their uses. While some are bad at certain times that is for you to chose. I play as England and monarchy is the most beastly starting government ever. Between dye and producing mad culture there is no other government I really desire for the first two eras of the game. After that I feel it all depends on the situation. Basically if you can make a strategy that takes advatage of a governments bonuses and reducing the impact of its disadvantages you can make it useful.

[Matrix49G]

What's the point of Republic Government?

How does it work? I never use it because I dont get it. I mainly use Depotism, or Monarchy, and if I am pretty set in the domination part I will use a Democracy.

I never use Communism or Fundamentalism.

So what does it mean population built for for unit? (or what ever it tells you)

[guenzak]

So what does it mean population built for for unit? (or what ever it tells you)

Normally when you build a settler unit it costs the building city 2 population but under this government it only costs one. I know for me when I am playing I am often torn between making the decision to expand through settlers or keep my population as is. Many times early in the game the -2 to the population in a city can really hurt:eek:

[Matrix49G]

Normally when you build a settler unit it costs the building city 2 population but under this government it only costs one. I know for me when I am playing I am often torn between making the decision to expand through settlers or keep my population as is. Many times early in the game the -2 to the population in a city can really hurt:eek:


Thanks, I did not know that, maybe now I can put it to use.

[PhillyMike101]

Thanks, I did not know that, maybe now I can put it to use.

Yeah, its more of an early government for expanding, and when youre done building settlers you just go back to whichever you like.

[MorteEterna]

Thanks, I did not know that, maybe now I can put it to use.

However that's good at the start, to build cities, and after you have your cities that becomes useless, I think romans can use that as well, and maybe Chinese, but other civs have to build fast cities and maybe they won't use code of laws (I'm a rusher so I don't care about that tech, I prefer use 2 pop )

[NorrecV]

How come Monarchy is only double palace culture instead of double culture in the city with the palace? The other goverments get redicously powerfull bonuses.

Democracy techs up faster, which in turn makes you better at everything.
Communism makes you produce things faster, which helps science, which helps everything( Librarys faster, more science).
Republic gets you more towns which helps with everything(more towns = more everything).

Then there are Fundamentalism and Monarchy. The thing to remember about Fundamentalism is that it adds to base attack. Which means an army gets +3 base attack. Base attack is what all percents are based off of. So increaseing base attack means veterncy, hills, infiltration, gurellia, great generals and other percents all get boosted as well. So Fundamentalism can really help with the assault.

Then there is Monarchy. All it does it a tiny bit more culture in a single town. You get maybe 5 extra culture than everyone else. It doesn't stack with temples or cathedrals. Thats it, 5 culture. You could be getting lets say 60 more science. You could be getting 5 or more production in every town. You could be making settlers with very little penelty or getting your catapults enough attack to beat vet pikemen. But no, instead you're getting ... 5 culture.

Does no one else think that is completely rediculous? You get a little culture early on but as soon as you build a second town or your population increases your boarders shrink again(these things effect culture boarders). Once you hit the medieval age that 5 culture isin't even getting your capitals boarders out past where the workers can reach. Even if all monarchy did was make you get great people faster(Double culture towards great people, but not towards borders) it'd be better than it is now.

[eireksten]

Palace culture increases with population in the capital (and also a bit by era I think), so monarchy grows stronger if you grow your capital in size.

I've actually started to grow fond of all the governments, and there are none of them that are unlikely for me to use in games.

[tangerinedarter]

I think it is strange that the magna carta (A historically democratic document) is the communist's best friend :D . Seriously In sp I always try to get this wonder so I can be a culturally sustainable communism. Try it if you haven't. It helps get those factories up earlier (esp if you are the first one to get communism) - production will soar if you are americans or mongols with mountains. Just make sure to have a courthouse in every city (or at least every other city)

I probably use fundamentalism the least unless I am playing as the arabs or indians (it's nice that the indians can switch for assault and then switch back without penalty)

[NorrecV]

Are you sure palace culture inreases with population? I know temples just turn whatever number you have for population into what you have for culture. I don't think the palace culture ever really changes. Even if it did go up by 1 now and again, I still don't think it makes it better than the other goverments.

[eireksten]

Are you sure palace culture inreases with population? I know temples just turn whatever number you have for population into what you have for culture. I don't think the palace culture ever really changes. Even if it did go up by 1 now and again, I still don't think it makes it better than the other goverments.

Yes, I'm sure it increases by population. I haven't tested very much on the era thing though...

I like monarchy, and you'll often find my civ in that government. It's not BETTER than any other government (as I find that all of them are useful), but it has it's purposes.

[Angus Mac Barca]

For saying a detail : these governments are from Civilization 2 ;)

System was perfect and i always chosen Fundamentalism in 90's...
Because Fundamentalism generated lot of money and i could buy cities with a diplomat....

[Madhatter]

double the capitals culture thats interesting lets run some numbers
capital size 20.
temple = 20 culture
cathedral = 20 culture
3 wonders one being shakespears theater 9 culture
palace 3- 5 culture (i thought it was 3 but read 5 in this thread)
on dye resource 3 (i think)
all in all 55 culture *2 (shakespear) * 2 (suggested monarchi rule) = 200 + culture pr round
capital size 31 same upgrades
300+ culture pr round

I think my standard goverment would end up being monarchi
there might even be some adjustments i have forgotten :D

[Madhatter]

but we could easily agree that monarchi needs a small upgrade :D

[Krikkitone]

I Think Palace Culture might depend on the Era (so 2-5)

It would be good if Monarchy made the Palace Bonus equal to the pop of the city
so 2 to 5 + city population

[NorrecV]

Manhatter the same numbers could be run using Democracy for science. Except it would be every city not just one. So its alright to have multiple cities doing 100 science but not one city getting 200 culture?

[august29f73]

Religion doesn't like science?


Yeah, that is an objective criticsm ... NOT!!!!

[badken]

Religion doesn't like science?


Yeah, that is an objective criticsm ... NOT!!!!

No more ridiculous than communists don't like culture. The point is for there to be an upside and a downside. Except for Despotism!

[NorrecV]

The point is for there to be an upside and a downside. Except for Despotism! ...

... and Democracy, because it seems when a Greece player first encounters your civilization and it comes up and you can choose peace or war, they can choose to go to war. For other civilizations just go to war sometime before you get Democracy since Democracy doesn't cause peace when you change into it.

I had another post about Democracy being cheap in multiplayer a bit back.

[MorteEterna]

However that's not the democracy too cheap.. The democracy is too ridicolous.. The developers in my opinion have to change the option for the democracy. If you have more units than your enemy you can declare war and they allow to declare war.

[Madhatter]

@NorrecV I know you can make the same ridiculous science output with democracy, but i think the number of beakers to reach space flight is rather larger than the number to reach 20 great people with culture. But havent run the numbers
I also think democracy has to be changed so that it is certain that its your opponents that decides if there is war or not.
The goverment system is an ok system but needs to checked up on.
Another think is that monarchy is some what earlier in the tech tree than democracy, so it shouldnt have the same impact on the game, imho :)

[eireksten]

@NorrecV I know you can make the same ridiculous science output with democracy, but i think the number of beakers to reach space flight is rather larger than the number to reach 20 great people with culture. But havent run the numbers
I also think democracy has to be changed so that it is certain that its your opponents that decides if there is war or not.
The goverment system is an ok system but needs to checked up on.
Another think is that monarchy is some what earlier in the tech tree than democracy, so it shouldnt have the same impact on the game, imho :)

You don't only run culture to get those 20 culture points!

In addition to getting great people, you build wonders, flip cities, kidnap great people, and conquer cities (with lots of culture/wonders/GPs)...

I think all these combined make for a much faster win than most tech win. It's harder to pull off, though.

[eireksten]

But havent run the numbers
I also think democracy has to be changed so that it is certain that its your opponents that decides if there is war or not.

I agree very much to this. The enemy of a democracy should be able to fast and easily end the war at will.


The goverment system is an ok system but needs to checked up on.
Another think is that monarchy is some what earlier in the tech tree than democracy, so it shouldnt have the same impact on the game, imho :)

Monarchy and Democracy is equally far into the tech tree...

[Madhatter]

[QUOTE=



Monarchy and Democracy is equally far into the tech tree...[/QUOTE]

well got that one wrong :o