Science overpowered?

[The_World]

I am not an expert although I do manage my way around (I have no trouble owning the deity level), but I wonder; is science overpowered?

No matter what you do, I just don't think you can race tanks and battleships. So basically, either you go all in researching science and modern infantry (which, oddly enough, is even more advanced than the tank?!) or you will soon see your nice empire be taken away from you.

In contrast, culture seems completely underpowered. Sure, you need a little culture to protect yourself from a culture heavy civilization, but monarchy seems useless (compared to the tank enabling democracy) and catherdrals are hardly worth the expense. In the end, cultural victory is only really viable once you wiped out someone, especially if they were kind enough to amass a large number of people and wonders. So, basically, culture is out as a victory condition by itself.

Also, people who engage in too many battles early on will always lose the tank race, unless they managed to conquer a civilization up to par with the one racing for the tanks. So, again, in the end it all comes down to who will get to the tank first. Only if everyone reached this level can the game then proceed as normal but the tanks can be made well before 15th century so be aware that the clock is ticking.

I would just like to ask the developers (or in this case 2KElizabeth) whether it was a conscious decision to make science the mandatory way to go, making all other aspects just diversions ... And also why early attacking units are all more advanced than their nemesis archer while the tank remains unopposed until the infantry arrives, which is just not soon enough!

In the end, I know that science and army is what made a civilization better than another, but still, this being a videogame and all, I though culture and money would get a shot as well. But as it is, I just don't see how anything can stand against those tanks backed up by a fleet of battleships. Surely, culture don't help. Nor does money, if you can't buy tanks or infantry. What to do, what to do?

[Sigmakan]

Sure science is powerful, but its not in direct competition with culture. You can be gaining science and culture at the same time without compromising the other. The same cannot be said for science and gold.

Of course science is important, but its also important to know when you can stop. If you are going for economic, culture, or domination there are certain techs where you can shut off research completely and focus your workers on either gold or production.

I don't think its quite fair to say science is overpowered, its how its supposed to be. Also, if you focus on science too heavily early on you might find yourself in deep trouble if someone rushes you. It takes balance.

[MorteEterna]

Also, people who engage in too many battles early on will always lose the tank race, unless they managed to conquer a civilization up to par with the one racing for the tanks. So, again, in the end it all comes down to who will get to the tank first. Only if everyone reached this level can the game then proceed as normal but the tanks can be made well before 15th century so be aware that the clock is ticking.

I would just like to ask the developers (or in this case 2KElizabeth) whether it was a conscious decision to make science the mandatory way to go, making all other aspects just diversions ... And also why early attacking units are all more advanced than their nemesis archer while the tank remains unopposed until the infantry arrives, which is just not soon enough!

In the end, I know that science and army is what made a civilization better than another, but still, this being a videogame and all, I though culture and money would get a shot as well. But as it is, I just don't see how anything can stand against those tanks backed up by a fleet of battleships. Surely, culture don't help. Nor does money, if you can't buy tanks or infantry. What to do, what to do?

Well i don't want to say you are a noob, but i think you haven't seen how the game work in the game. There are a lot of way, for example, and the first who takes the tanks isn't the winner. In some games that i played, i was going to kill my enemy fast, if i didn't work, i have never lost, because i only have to switch the production to the science. And if my enemy in some games had the tanks first, i have always win, without having infantry.
And other thing that you have to know is that Riflemen are better than infantry to kill tanks (Haven't you seen that? Look my thread http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18701 if you want).

Who is the first to take tanks so isn't the winner, he has only a little advantage (Lol, in all my first games, about 20, i had tanks when my enemies had archers). You can stop the research when you have these troops and your enemy is not so advanced:

-Riflemen (very good to defence)
-Bombers (very good to attack)
-Tanks (good to attack)

Artillary is only an advantage, but if he is not so advanced you don't need it. You always have to stop the research, and you need to start to produce a lot of troops or gold. Gold is very important, because if you have infantry, artillary and bombers, but your enemy come with x4 riflemen, tanks and fighters/bombers than yours, you will die early.
I hope you will need what i said here and in that thread.

[The_World]

I see your point and to a certain extent I agree with you, especially if all the players are of a decent level (which so far was never the case, also due to people leaving the game and thus leaving everything in the hands of the subpar AI) but nonetheless, I think things like Monarchy, Cathedral, and Wonders just don't make it against science; and for added bonus, most wonders are made obsolete possibly even before they were even built.

Also, if you fall behind in culture or money, you are still in the game. But as soon as your opponent has tanks and you don't, you're basically done. Yes, in theory you can fend off a few army of tanks with some well placed riflemen but I doubt this is a solid strategy. In the end, you'll need infantry, and you'll need it badly. Now, seeing that Mass Production (Infantry) is a step or two more advanced than Combustion (Tank), it's easy to see that it's almost impossible to defend if your opponent rushed for science.

Now the only really viable counter plan is an early rush but as it stands, early defensive units are almost too efficient compared to the late game. Two armies of Pikemen and you'll need a formidable force to break it which, again, requires science (Catapults, Knights...) also due to the fact that the early offensive unit Legion is worthless. And as soon as your force won't make it through the wall (which will most likely be the case, especially once the opposition got the Riflemen unit) you will find yourself in a position very well away from the almighty tanks.

Of course, time will tell how balanced science really is. So far, I'm expressing my opinions based on two weeks of gameplay, online and versus CPU. I keep an opem mind to any suggestions and are constantly striving to find other ways to fight my foe. So far, only an early rush could establish a better position than a scientific one, and even in that case science was the ultimate game finisher.

[MorteEterna]

I see your point and to a certain extent I agree with you, especially if all the players are of a decent level (which so far was never the case, also due to people leaving the game and thus leaving everything in the hands of the subpar AI) but nonetheless, I think things like Monarchy, Cathedral, and Wonders just don't make it against science; and for added bonus, most wonders are made obsolete possibly even before they were even built.

Also, if you fall behind in culture or money, you are still in the game. But as soon as your opponent has tanks and you don't, you're basically done. Yes, in theory you can fend off a few army of tanks with some well placed riflemen but I doubt this is a solid strategy. In the end, you'll need infantry, and you'll need it badly. Now, seeing that Mass Production (Infantry) is a step or two more advanced than Combustion (Tank), it's easy to see that it's almost impossible to defend if your opponent rushed for science.

Now the only really viable counter plan is an early rush but as it stands, early defensive units are almost too efficient compared to the late game. Two armies of Pikemen and you'll need a formidable force to break it which, again, requires science (Catapults, Knights...) also due to the fact that the early offensive unit Legion is worthless. And as soon as your force won't make it through the wall (which will most likely be the case, especially once the opposition got the Riflemen unit) you will find yourself in a position very well away from the almighty tanks.

Of course, time will tell how balanced science really is. So far, I'm expressing my opinions based on two weeks of gameplay, online and versus CPU. I keep an opem mind to any suggestions and are constantly striving to find other ways to fight my foe. So far, only an early rush could establish a better position than a scientific one, and even in that case science was the ultimate game finisher.

My thought is that you can kill your enemy only in 2/4 ages. Ancient and modern era. And i'm not so stupid that i attack my enemies in medieval era (the worst era to attack one) and in the industrial era (It is bad). If i want to kill one, i kill him earlier or i will wait the modern era. Whatever if one has riflemen and a lot of gold and his enemy has tanks but only science, i think the player that has riflemen will win the war, because if you produce 2000 gold each turn, it means about 20 riflemen each turn, if you can, so about 6 armies. Your enemy will produce about 1 army each turn if he is good, and if he attack you could kill tanks very fast using knights or riflemen..
And you can do this thing to block your enemy that use tanks:

Take all your best places, as forests, hills (You need to stay with about 2-3 armies of riflemen here) and you have to block places where he can use a ship or some ships (so he take -1/2 and it is bad).. It will work and you could expand while he is trying to remove these troops

[Sigmakan]

I think a big problem is that I'm not sure if unit movement is balanced with science. See in Civ4 the game becomes almost broken on quick mode because by the time you get your units to the enemy they've already researched the next military tech.

I think you might be experiencing a similar problem, along with many other people. I'd suggest developing ways of moving troops faster. I've noticed that almost every tile of land is no more than 2-3 tiles from water. What this means is that by combing good city placement with galleons you can move your units quite effectively.

This is just a suggestion and might not remedy everything, but I do understand where you are coming from.

[Altashheth]

You dont just need defensive troops to defend..

I mean a couple of armies of riflemen in a fort/walled city can hold tanks, but they hold them even longer if there is an army or two of cannons counter attacking and killing the tanks whilst the rush bought rifleman armies are moved back into position....

As for culture, it is an easy victory to get. You can't spend culture points so once you have them they are for keeps, a high culture can culture flip enemy cities and your own cities that the enemy may have taken.

Lets face it 4+ wonders, 2-3 culture flipped cities coupled with your own generated great people and the pursuaded great people (spies) of your opponents make it a very viable tactic. You can easily steal 4+ great people. Thats a tolal of 10 on the culture scale already - 10 great peeps to generate until the UN unlocks.

[Magwill]

I wouldnt say science is overpowered.I would more say that its necessary to be good in all victories since they are all related. Especially in the early stages since you can more easily gain some great persons and bonuses. And counter attacking is really important. In my game on deity I could hold out 2 AIs constant attacking simply by having one archer army in each city gaining bonuses all the time. Together with russian loyalty and barracks + a wall, they would win enough times to gain a lot of upgrades. When you get Engineer and Leadership it is really hard to break through. But I also had a legion army in my city, and the important thing is that if you have a great general in your defending archer army, your army (attacking from the city square) receives the great general bonus even when he attacks a unit one square away. And obviously you want the enemy out of your squares as fast as possible.

[U-B]

I've been pondering the same thing, and I think that science definitely dominates. Now, that might be exactly what the developers intended, and from a historical perspective, it is fairly logical - however, from a gameplay perspective, it does seem to homogenise all of my strategies, and most games seem to turn into a tech race, whilst you try to fit other things around that. For instance, the only single player game that I've lost so far was one where, for various reasons, I was last in the tech race, and I found it impossible to get past that disadvantage. I think the problem is also exacerbated by the tech rewards, because if you're winning the tech race, then not only are you getting access to better units and buildings, but you're also gaining some fairly significant rewards.

[Krikkitone]

Well the advantage of Tech mostly moves into the advatage of Democracy... Both Fundamentalism and Communism can work as things you revolt into After achieving your desired tech for a massive army build up but Monarchy Does seem a little weak.

[PrivateJohn]

Just had 2 game with Crypt Rascal nl and i lost both game continously.

Science is not really overpowered, what he did to counter me is culture + early rush. Learn something new today:)

[tto55]

i find that tech rushing to tanks or artillery is the easiest way to win via domination, however, if going to another victory then just get banking, religon etc. then just aim for mass produce but make sure the victory is priority no.1

[MorteEterna]

Just had 2 game with Crypt Rascal nl and i lost both game continously.

Science is not really overpowered, what he did to counter me is culture + early rush. Learn something new today:)

Lol i'm thinking he learn it from me :D but i don't want to say too much, only i said how i play about in this forum.. I killed crypt very easy and he learned it from me. Lol, i don't think it isn't as i have said, i have also seen he tried to use my civ and i always use that strategy, or about that
Today i won another game, starting from a base of attacking others and i used the owerpowered science to make him quits, but it is not so beautiful to see. I had modern infantry and he had cats. When he has seen i had infantry he quit very very fast, but i took also Oxford for example, a big advantage but i took superconductors

[PrivateJohn]

I beat him before as well, but that's a long time ago. I've play you before but his strategy isn't similiar to yours as far as i can tell.

What he did best is maintaining the balance at the beginning of the game, then use the great person to convert my city into his. Well played.

[2K Elizabeth]

there's a lot of good food for thought in this thread already, but i know you asked me directly, so i'll try and give you an answer.

yes, science is important. through it, you will win any of your victories more quickly. however, how you use science is what is important -- are you going to focus on the military and production techs to dominate, or grab up wonders and temples/cathedrals and gobble up other cities through culture? are you going to churn out a couple mega-banking cities who make tons of cash? or are you going to just throw all your power into launching that space ship.

using science wisely is the key. you don't need to get ALL techs, and you don't have to master all the different victories. focus on one or two, and you'll find science works more for you than against you. :-)

[MorteEterna]

I beat him before as well, but that's a long time ago. I've play you before but his strategy isn't similiar to yours as far as i can tell.

What he did best is maintaining the balance at the beginning of the game, then use the great person to convert my city into his. Well played.

So he played as me, the problem is that you played versus me long time ago but in the custom games where i played a random civ, maybe there you could win 2 times (you won 1, whatever i had to go)

If you beat him before that, it means he could have learned it from me, try to ask that, i don't know if he will say that, but it seems to be the same strategy, or about that

[Sigmakan]

Well generally in strategy games its quite common for two separate people to come up with the same strategy without every copying each other. It makes it kinda silly to claim a strategy as your own.

[MorteEterna]

Well generally in strategy games its quite common for two separate people to come up with the same strategy without every copying each other. It makes it kinda silly to claim a strategy as your own.

Whatever when he had played vs me he tried the same civ and same strategy.. I will ask him if he wants to say that.. Whatever it is possible

[PrivateJohn]

So he played as me, the problem is that you played versus me long time ago but in the custom games where i played a random civ, maybe there you could win 2 times (you won 1, whatever i had to go)

If you beat him before that, it means he could have learned it from me, try to ask that, i don't know if he will say that, but it seems to be the same strategy, or about that
Few days ago as long time ago?

[MorteEterna]

Few days ago as long time ago?

I don't remember, less than a week i think.. I'm sure at the 90%

Whatever i think you (all) have to research technologies when your troops couldn't beat enemy troops for example, when you need gold, or something to research more. You have to see how much you need a tech and research a tech. For example i could start without research tech if i kill my enemies fast, it depend also from the game, not always for the strategy

[PrivateJohn]

Today is Monday...so, last week sounds about right;)