Upgrade Advice

[Silent Film]

Tech-heads, I need your help. I'm planning a major upgrade soon and I'm completely in the dark with regards to current tech. I'm looking to get a new mainboard, processor, graphics card, and possibly new memory and a hard-drive.

The ability to play Bioshock comfortably is a must, along with titles like Alan Wake, Crysis, and UT3 engine games. Though I gather that since required specs have not been released some guesswork will be involved.

I'm not looking for cutting-edge tech, but I want something that is reasonably powerful. Future proofing is somewhat important - it has to be upgradable so I can slot in a new processor, or add memory in the future, if necessary. Ultimately I don't want to have to perform a major bulk upgrade like this for another 2-3 years.

This is some of what I've been looking at:

Abit nForce 590Sli Mainboard (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=322047) - I have no idea what the difference is between the different chipsets (590, 570, etc).
GeForce 8800GTS (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=329213) - More than what I would normally pay for a vid card, but then it seems quite powerful, although I've never heard of this brand - is this important?

Some AMD AM2 processor, not sure which.

At the moment I have 1Gig of DDR 3200 memory, but I was thinking of keeping that at this time and then upgrading in a few months down the line (assuming it fits in the motherboard above), but will this prove to be a significant bottleneck?

Should I be bothered about Vista at this time? Or will I be able to even install my current legit copy of XP. As it is now I have to call Microsoft each time I reformat and install XP on the same machine. :rolleyes:

Any thoughts on the above?

Also, any recommendations for any good, low-cost UK supplier would be welcome.

[Hatesink]

I'm probably not the best person to give you advice on upgrading, since I generally practice 'bangernomics' when it comes to PCs (also, when it comes to PCs I generally feel that future-proofing is a false economy, since it's probably more cost-effective just to upgrade incrementally on an ad-hoc basis (but having said that, I mostly retro-game and so don't generally play a game until it's at least two years old— I have BioShock pencilled in for 2010))

Theoretically, if you're the kind of person who upgrades regularly and continually, it might make sense for an enthusiast with disposable income to sink some money into relatively top-end hardware and just keep selling it on over the auction sites and adding a little to the proceeds to pay for the next upgrade (but that could work out expensive (I've not really done the math, so I'm not sure how cost-effective it might be)).

But more specifically, since eveything's multi-threaded these days,the more cores your processor has, the better. Chris Kline has posted saying that BioShock should be playable on a single core machine but at a much reduced quality. I think that either a dual-core or quad core processor will probably be a recommended spec.we currently are shooting for single-core as part of the min spec for Bioshock, but you definitely won't be able to see the game in all its glory on that spec. http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1512294#post1512294

If I remember correctly the 360 has three cores configured to operate as though it actually has six cores. Apparently the 360 and PC versions are being developed in tandem:

How about when a game is developed using the XBox 360 development tools created by Microsoft specifically with their console in mind and "ported" to the PC as you go? Isn't that what IG is doing with BioShock?

It may not be the classical example of a completed and published game being released on a later date for a different platform but what is happening with BioShock is as much a port as any other.No, it is not. The PC and XBox 360 versions are developed simultaneously using our cross-platform engine technology, keeping both platforms in mind.

We have an entire sub-team dedicated to making PC-specific changes, and when we develop new features and UIs we always make sure they will work equally well on both platforms. Jake Edgeton, our brilliant and overworked UI engineer, has spent many sleepless nights coordinating with our top PC engineers (Daniel Lamb and Robert Black) to make sure this is the case.

To be honest, during development we often spend more time playing the PC version because it's faster to try out changes on the PC (it takes time to "cook" the content to work on the XBox360). Our fearless project lead, Alyssa Finley, has a well-worn stick that she uses to beat us while shouting "don't forget to test on the console too!".

- Chris Kline, Irrational Games

PS - We're not really using any "XBox 360 development tools", except for performance analyzers (we use VTune+PIX on the PC, and PIX+XBPerfView on the XBox360).http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1549655#post1549655


As I've mentioned before, we're still deep into PC-specific optimization on both the CPU and GPU sides, so I can't give anyone specific recommendations yet.

But I can say that investing in a multi-core (either dual- or quad-core when available) will be money well-spent. Bioshock is heavily multithreaded.

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1511912#post1511912

Hi Chris..
Will Bioshock actually be able to utilize all 4 cores of a quad core..?
in other words do you reckon it to be a good investment for this game to upgrade to quad core compared to upgrading to 'just' a dual core..?Yes. We currently run

- simulation update (1 thread)
- UI update (1 thread)
- rendering (1 thread)
- physics (3 threads on Xenon, 1 to TBD on PC)
- audio state update (1 thread)
- audio processing (1 thread)
- texture streaming (1 thread)
- file streaming (1 thread)

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1512293#post1512293

I would like to ask you for another answer. In your opinion - X2 4600+, 2 GB Ram, single 7900GT will be enough to run this great game in such screenshot quality?That rig is nearly identical to the machines our dev team uses machines. The game should perform reasonably well on that system, depending what resolution you run the game at and what options you have enabled.

That's all I can say at this time, since we're still in the middle of major optimizations.

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1502946#post1502946

I guess the last word should probably be...

For what it's worth, the XBox360 version will perform the same as, if not better than, a decked-out quad-core PC rig running at 720p with all graphics options set to maximum.

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1512765#post1512765What "a decked-out quad-core PC rig [capable of running BioShock at] at 720p with all graphics options set to maximum" will cost at the time of BioShock's release is anyone's guess.

Here's some info. re. hardware and Alan Wake. It wouldn't surprise me if BioShock ran well with equivalently powerful hardware who's specs are generally in the same ballpark:

Remedy have showcased Alan Wake running smoothly on an Intel Core 2 Quad system overclocked at 3.73Ghz with a GeForce 7900GTX.

Markus from Remedy has said “Alan Wake would pretty much not run on any single core processors, although it may be possible to run on single-core Pentium 4 processors with Hyper Threading enabled, with noticably reduced image quality/experience.”

The game will use a separate processing thread dedicated to physical calculations. Since Remedy is using Havok, there is no support for Ageia PhysX cards, so all the physical calculations are done using the CPU. Markus has explained that a normal Core 2 Quad will use 80% of one core for physical calculations.

I've heard that the 360 is due to drop in price some time soon, so the best bet for a someone interested in BioShock (as well as a few other 360 titles (Fable 2, Assassin's Creed, Alan Wake etc.)) and who isn't due for a PC upgrade, might be to just buy a 360 (although there's no mouse-support for the 360 (as far as I know)). Having said that, however, if you've got the knowhow, the money you'd spend on the 360 might pay for quite a nice PC upgrade.

[Hatesink]

I don't really know a lot about specific hardware, but as for RAM, motherboards apparently require specific types of RAM (i.e. it has to be the correct serial number to be totally compatible (check out http://www.crucial.com/uk/)).

Also, there are companies out there that will basically charge you as much as you're willing or able to pay for performance RAM (and high-performance hard drives too for that matter), but I'm really not sure whether the advantages really justify the costs.

The trick is to buy components that compliment each other, so that you don't have any bottlenecks.

This is a good site:

http://xtremods.com/

http://xtremods.com/vbulletin/

Join up and post your budget and a little info. on what you want to upgrade for and they'll tell you what goes with what and what's best to buy etc. They know their stuff.

For new hardware I buy from http://www.dabs.com/, but most of my hardware I buy second hand at ebay.

[Adam Nuhfer]

I have BioShock pencilled in for 2010))

I find that interesting! Most of us are chomping at the bit to get our hands on it and your going to wait till 2010.

Silent Film: The prices on Intel CPUs are slatted to drop around end of April time frame. New 45 nano CPUs are due out sometime this summer along with new Bearlake chipset. When the newer stuff comes out, the new now will become older now and go down in price. Shop around, research the hardware your looking to do your build on and you will be fine.

Another option if your willing to wait, is go the route Hatesink is talking about. Wait till 2010 to configure a machine which will handle BioShock. By then I'm sure you could get a smoking deal on a Dual/Quad core machine which is up to the task. ME, I can't wait that long. I just built a E6700 machine. Had I known BioShock was going to be delayed, I would have waited a little longer as I started to do this project starting end of December, 2006.

If your in to computer gaming, this can get to be a costly hobby.

[Hatesink]

Another option if your willing to wait, is go the route Hatesink is talking about. Wait till 2010 to configure a machine which will handle BioShock.I'm seriously considering buying a 360.

[Silent Film]

Thanks for the input guys. Hatesink, where's the best place to post my query on the site you linked to?

I forgot to mention budget, I would probably say £500, possibly up to £650 if it can be justified. As a gaming enthusiast it's something I'm willing to pay extra for. However this is not including a new monitor which I also intend to buy.

I think it's been about three years or so since the last major overhaul, in that time I've only added extra memory so I would say I'm roughly due for an upgrade. That said, my rig is actually still capable of running most games thrown at it, although there were noticeable performance issues with Bloodlines, Dark Messiah and Boiling Point but these are precisely the type of games that I would've preferred to have played without the gaming experience being compromised.

I've also been doing a lot of development on this PC which I think has been the cause of some recent stability issues I've been experiencing so I'd like to contain that. My intention is to keep my current PC running for development and hook up a small network with a new gaming/entertainment PC.

I'm least sure about the mainboard/CPU combo. On further examination of the mainboard I linked to it looks like I will have to get new memory due to differing pin specs, so that's another thing to add to the list.

I think I'll order the monitor, case and router from Dabs tomorrow. The other components I still need to decide on, but I'll likely get them from Komplett in a week or two, if I can't find a cheaper supplier.

[Hatesink]

At http://xtremods.com I generally always posted to the 'General Hardware' forum which is where most people posted for advice on system builds, but I've not been there for a while. I just checked back there and it looks like the membership might have thinned out a little.

You could try hothardware.com (http://www.hothardware.com/forum/). You should be able to get similar advice there if you browse around a little.

As for Boiling Point, I don't think it runs well on anything ;), which is a shame because apart from the glitches and gameplay issues it had absolutely massive potential (I just couldn't play it). Looking forward to White Gold (http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/action/whitegoldwarinparadise/index.html?q=white%20gold) however (really hoping it actually reaches the shelves).

[Silent Film]

Okay, I will likely get a new hard-drive and could use some suggestions. Everyone seems to have a favourite manufacturer who they swear by, which is always different from the next person. ;)

I've worked with a lot of Maxtor drives and I've never experienced any problems with them, the same can't be said of IBM (DeathStar, anyone?) and Seagate. Thing is Seagate has brought out Maxtor and if I buy a Seagate I'm not sure whose tech I'm actually buying.

I don't think I've heard anything overly bad about Western Digital, so I might go with one of those. Anyone here have one?

[Hatesink]

I don't really have a preference when it comes to hard drives, but I'd probably never use another Asus motherboard. I'll probably always opt for a Gigabyte motherboard http://tw.giga-byte.com/

[Silent Film]

Thanks, I'll go for a WD then. My current 80Gb hard drive is over half full and the Vista requirements state a minimum of 40Gb, with 15 gigs of space extra, so that's what is prompting me to get a new HD now. But I think it's about time to up to a SATA II anyway.

[Pinstripe]

I currently own a P4 3Ghz (HT), 2 gig RAM, X1950GT 512MB, X-Fi.

If Bioshock isn't going to run decently on this rig, I'm gonna commit suicide....or even worse, buy a 360.

[Silent Film]

Okay, I didn't really want to be rushed into a decision but I have a £20 voucher with Dabs which ends on the 31st, which I don't particularly want to throw away so to make full use of it I'll get the video card from there. But I can't decide between either of the below:

Gainward 8800GTS (GPU 550MHz, Memory Clock Speed 1700MHz) (http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4F8G&CategorySelectedId=11137&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11137,14,43990000&InMerch=1)

Gigabyte 8800GTS (GPU 500MHz, Memory Clock Speed 1600MHz) (http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4CPL&CategorySelectedId=11137&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11137,14,50509&InMerch=1)

Nearly £20 price difference, both the GPU and Memory Clock Speed are slightly beefier on the higher priced one, but I'm not sure whether both together constitute any significant performance difference, do they?

One half of me is thinking £250 is an outrageous sum just to make games look prettier, I've already passed that threshold so another £20 won't hurt. The other half of me is thinking holy smokes £250 is an outrageous sum, I need to keep the cost down as much as possible. :D

On a completely different matter, does anyone know of any way to connect a Gamecube to a PC monitor, without using a VGA converter box? The Cube I have here has a 'Digital DV Out' socket in the back (HDMI ?), does anyone know whether is it possible to get a HDMI to DVI cable and just plug it directly into the monitor?

[nmrahde]

Yeah you can get HDMI to DVI cables. I get that question all the time about projectors at work.

How quick do you need to upgrade? Like right this moment or can you wait until Bioshock comes out? I've found it's usually best to wait until the last possible moment if upgrading solely to play a specific game (I did mine for Oblivion)

That being said look for motherboards that have the widest range of upgrade options. The one I have can run either a single or dual core processor so I went with a cheap single core for now, but I have the option to swap out the CPU without having to replace the motherboard.

SLI boards are good in theory because you can connect two video cards and have them split the load. From what I've read they'll operate on the settings that the lower of the two cards have. I'm not sure how much of a boost exactly this would give (ie would two 6800s be better than an 8800). Again though waiting is a good option here as well. A lot of the DirectX 9 cards are dropping in price because of the DirectX 10 ones (which I believe Crysis requires?)

Also on the video card section - at least for me I saw a difference in performance with the number of pixel pipes a card has. So if you're looking at two similar models sometimes more pixel pipes on one can be worth more that higher clock speed on the other (again sorry but I don't know the exact ratio)

All of this is based on what I looked for when I built my machine a year ago though so it may be completely outdated or I may be remembering things completely wrong.

For what it's worth here's what I'm running:

Asus A8N-SLi Motherboard
AMD Athlon64 3200 (I forget which chipset)
EVGA GeForce 6800GS (PCI-express, 256mb DDR3)
A Maxtor 200gb drive that I remember none of the details for.
1gb RAM that I remember none of the details for except that its not low latency sutff.

It can run everything but Supreme Commander on the highest settings without any lag.

My friend has almost the same setup except that he used a 7800GT video card and one of the dual core processors (I don't remember which). He was able to run Oblivion on high settings while playing FFXI on high settings (and I hate him for that.)

Hope that helps.

[Silent Film]

I went with the Gainward. It comes bundled with PowerDVD 5, a freebie that will actually be useful to me, so that swayed me.

I'm upgrading with Bioshock in mind but I'm also eager to play both Armed Assault and Stalker, not that I can afford them now ;). The problem with waiting on upcoming tech, or prices to drop, is that there's always next gen tech around the corner, so where do you start. No matter what you do the gear you buy will always drop in price a number of months later, giving you that feeling of 'd'oh'. I came into some extra cash recently, hence the timing. Hopefully I wont even have to think about another upgrade for at least 2-3 years, fingers crossed anyway. :D

About the Cube, I heard that the digital port was disabled on PAL machines, and that it doesn't carry sound, but I cannot seem to find any straightforward answers on the net. Presumably it might be possible to plug it directly into the video card, but would that require video-in?

[nmrahde]

I know DVI doesn't have audio. Dunno about HDMI (I always thought HDMI was DVI with copyright protection but I could be wrong there).