Attack/defence rate question.

[icejon]

is it the same rate having veterean warrior attacking warrior 2:1 and having tank attacking rifleman 60:30

is this the same
60:30 and 2:1

[joeymaree]

is it the same rate having veterean warrior attacking warrior 2:1 and having tank attacking rifleman 60:30

is this the same
60:30 and 2:1

yea i'd say so

[icejon]

yeah wierd though i often loose 2:1 but win alot ofter when i got higher rating:rolleyes:

[MorteEterna]

The numbers don't care a lot, look the move of your troops. Whatever if the attack is more, the probability to kill troops is more, for the defence too, but it's very difficult to kill a troop that has 60 instead of one that has 2.. Look that

[GazOC]

is it the same rate having veterean warrior attacking warrior 2:1 and having tank attacking rifleman 60:30

is this the same
60:30 and 2:1

Very possibly not. Years back I was really into Civ 2 and used to try and find out every detail about the game. A guy on Apolyton figured out the math behind the combat numbers and it was a lot more complicated than it looked at first sight....

[LiquidJ]

is it the same rate having veterean warrior attacking warrior 2:1 and having tank attacking rifleman 60:30

is this the same
60:30 and 2:1

NO. I don't want to say it is as simple as this but the difference between the two numbers is more important than their ratio. If you play World of Warcraft and know how the defense stat works to get "uncrushable" I think it's a little closer to that.

[Magwill]

I was thinking about this before sleeping tonight. The focus was a bit different though. Take a normal Legion unit and a normal Horseman unit. The differences are that the horsemen army has one extra move, and that the horseman can be hurt once while the legion can be hurt twice. What I mean is that the legion has 3 soldiers and can therefore end up having 0,1,2 or 3 after a battle. The horseman can end up with either 0,1 or 2.

So this made me think about how the calculation is done. Can a developer answer this question?

Lets say you have these two face each other, both with attack power 2. This means the odds should be 50-50. But you can calculate this in two ways. You randomize a number 0-1 and then if its below 50 you let the legion win and if its below 1 you let the horseman win. But then you need to calculate how many units of the other group are going to die.


This is the way I would do it for fairness:

Randomize the number between 0 and 1 to determine the winner. Then look at how far away from the other units odds your number was.

For example: You randomize 0,2 and you have the 50-50 odds. This means that you got a number very far from 0,5, which was the border for changing the victor. This would mean you had a very good advantage and therefore you dont lose many troops. Lets call the randomized number R and the odds for the legion X.

Then you take R/X to find out how close the randomized number was. So in our case we get 0,2/0,5 which is 0,4. This tells us that 40% of our units should die in this battle when we win. The other unit will lose so we dont need to calculate for him. Now lets say you got R = 0,49. This would mean 0,49/0,5 units would die. Rounded this would mean that all units die while you still die: we cant have that. So you always round downwards.


Basically if 40% of our units should die thats 0,40*3 = 1,2 while 0,4*2 = 0,8. This would mean that 1 warrior died but no horsemen. Since we already decided the victor without taking the number of soldiers into account, we now just calculate fairly how many soldiers that die by doing this. The horseman can only lose one troop. This means if he won the initial battle, he will only have to heal once and he also has 50% attack power. The warrior on the other hand has the possibility of getting 2 injuries and therefore have to heal twice and have only 33% attack power.

So my point/question is: I hope the game is not calculating the whole battle as a series of turns, where every time someone dies you do a new calculation saying in this case: 50% that a legion soldier dies and 50% that a horseman soldier dies. Because then the legion would have one more person to fight with and therefore a bigger chance of survival.

[MorteEterna]

I was thinking about this before sleeping tonight. The focus was a bit different though. Take a normal Legion unit and a normal Horseman unit. The differences are that the horsemen army has one extra move, and that the horseman can be hurt once while the legion can be hurt twice. What I mean is that the legion has 3 soldiers and can therefore end up having 0,1,2 or 3 after a battle. The horseman can end up with either 0,1 or 2.

So this made me think about how the calculation is done. Can a developer answer this question?

Lets say you have these two face each other, both with attack power 2. This means the odds should be 50-50. But you can calculate this in two ways. You randomize a number 0-1 and then if its below 50 you let the legion win and if its below 1 you let the horseman win. But then you need to calculate how many units of the other group are going to die.


This is the way I would do it for fairness:

Randomize the number between 0 and 1 to determine the winner. Then look at how far away from the other units odds your number was.

For example: You randomize 0,2 and you have the 50-50 odds. This means that you got a number very far from 0,5, which was the border for changing the victor. This would mean you had a very good advantage and therefore you dont lose many troops. Lets call the randomized number R and the odds for the legion X.

Then you take R/X to find out how close the randomized number was. So in our case we get 0,2/0,5 which is 0,4. This tells us that 40% of our units should die in this battle when we win. The other unit will lose so we dont need to calculate for him. Now lets say you got R = 0,49. This would mean 0,49/0,5 units would die. Rounded this would mean that all units die while you still die: we cant have that. So you always round downwards.


Basically if 40% of our units should die thats 0,40*3 = 1,2 while 0,4*2 = 0,8. This would mean that 1 warrior died but no horsemen. Since we already decided the victor without taking the number of soldiers into account, we now just calculate fairly how many soldiers that die by doing this. The horseman can only lose one troop. This means if he won the initial battle, he will only have to heal once and he also has 50% attack power. The warrior on the other hand has the possibility of getting 2 injuries and therefore have to heal twice and have only 33% attack power.

So my point/question is: I hope the game is not calculating the whole battle as a series of turns, where every time someone dies you do a new calculation saying in this case: 50% that a legion soldier dies and 50% that a horseman soldier dies. Because then the legion would have one more person to fight with and therefore a bigger chance of survival.

I think it's not as you said at the 100%, whatever look my thread if you want (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18701), it's similar to your post. Whatever i think that you need to look of move about 40% of one battle. It is because, as you said there are some troops, you have to see how they move in a battle, how they die, how they kill others. Knights and riflemen are good because:

Knights can kill units having less attack, and they can win more than 30 battles (In 2 games i won about 30 or more with an army of knights), and when riflemen move to their enemy they kill sure these troops (100%). They are good to kill tanks (I think better than modern infantry), because tanks are 3, and riflemen 9. If they move to their enemy one time they can kill 1-2 tanks. So there is 1 tank vs about 6 riflemen. He can try to kill them, but if the battle start so, i think 2 riflemen more will die, and others will destroy the last tank. I think it is about you said and what i said..Whatever i think you have to see:

-Standard Move / Move in a battle (about 40%)
-Rate of death (To select a good unit)
-Attack / Defence (+ Other bonuses, about 60%)
-A random factor

[Magwill]

I think it's not as you said at the 100%, whatever look my thread if you want (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18701), it's similar to your post. Whatever i think that you need to look of move about 40% of one battle. It is because, as you said there are some troops, you have to see how they move in a battle, how they die, how they kill others. Knights and riflemen are good because:

Knights can kill units having less attack, and they can win more than 30 battles (In 2 games i won about 30 or more with an army of knights), and when riflemen move to their enemy they kill sure these troops (100%). They are good to kill tanks (I think better than modern infantry), because tanks are 3, and riflemen 9. If they move to their enemy one time they can kill 1-2 tanks. So there is 1 tank vs about 6 riflemen. He can try to kill them, but if the battle start so, i think 2 riflemen more will die, and others will destroy the last tank. I think it is about you said and what i said..Whatever i think you have to see:

-Standard Move / Move in a battle (about 40%)
-Rate of death (To select a good unit)
-Attack / Defence (+ Other bonuses, about 60%)
-A random factor

I think its definately a random factor. However my knights have instead lost a lot of battles vs troops like legions.

[GazOC]

The combat system def. uses rounds or 'turns', I've read it in a preview interview for the game.

[Magwill]

The combat system def. uses rounds or 'turns', I've read it in a preview interview for the game.

Then it is interesting to know how that works. If they just do rounds, a legion would be better to use than a horseman simply because you have 3 lives instead of 2.

[MorteEterna]

Then it is interesting to know how that works. If they just do rounds, a legion would be better to use than a horseman simply because you have 3 lives instead of 2.

No, i still believe in my though. Look an army of legions, when they are going to die, there are about 2 deaths each time, not one.

[GazOC]

Do we know the graphics correspond to 'lives' and arn't just chosen because of how they look? For instance, 3 Horsemen might look a little cramped in the same space that 3 legion occupy.

A unit could have (say) 10 hit points, legion 3.3 for each graphic and horsemen 5 for each graphic. You get an extra life with a legion but the horse would be harder to knock any lives off??

You could give a unit 10 points and just round up the damage, so a legion incurring 10-8 pts is undamaged, 7-5 loses 1 life,4-1 loses 2 and with a horseman 10-6 pts is undamaged 5-1 points is 1 life???

There are plenty of different ways of doing it and I know from CiV 2 thats its probably a damn sight more complicated than it first looks.:)