Respawning enemies....... again?

[Mr. Teatime]

Okay. I want to bring up the “npc-respawn problem”. I know this has been mentioned before, but I can’t find it, so here we go.

I think that respawning enemies would be a necessary feature in this game. Since Rapture is a city, it would look unnatural having huge parts of it completely deserted. It has been stated, that the player will be able to go back and visit old areas. Respawning enemies will keep the player vigilant through the whole game.

Okay. It’s one thing having respawning enemies, but what with all the corpses? In “Hunting the Big Daddy” video, a Little Sister and a Big Daddy shows up right after the player killed an enemy. Although it (in this case) probably was arranged, this is likely to happen with any dead npc as time goes by.

My question is: Do you think the corpses disappear after a while? In that case respawning enemies are not a problem. However: I would actually prefer to have them lying around, but then respawning enemies would be a problem, because (after a while) all the bodies would make Rapture look more like a giant tomb, than a fallen city.

As far as I know, no information has been given on this subject, so this is a very open discussion.

[Pinky_Powers]

I for one found it highly un-cool that the Big Daddy & Little Sister came forth like some psychic gong had summoned them to the freshly fallen Adam-Supply.

I do hope that kind of thing is not a regular occurrence in the actual game.

[Mr. Teatime]

I for one found it highly un-cool that the Big Daddy & Little Sister came forth like some psychic gong had summoned them to the freshly fallen Adam-Supply.

I do hope that kind of thing is not a regular occurrence in the actual game.

That was probably just for practical reasons, I think. Ken stated (in the gamplay video) that everything in Rapture is dynamic. Exept from some scripted scenes, that is.

[ffanxii4ever]

what it is most likely is that if a Little Sister is near the site of a fight between you and splicer, they (LS and BD) will come to where the fight is, in order harvest the Adam from the loser

[Da Bubs]

I for one found it highly un-cool that the Big Daddy & Little Sister came forth like some psychic gong had summoned them to the freshly fallen Adam-Supply.

I do hope that kind of thing is not a regular occurrence in the actual game.

that was probably a scripted event for making the video, so they didnt sit around waiting for half and hour for a big daddy to show up. they should search dynamiclly in the finished game.

[Pinky_Powers]

that was probably a scripted event for making the video, so they didnt sit around waiting for half and hour for a big daddy to show up. they should search dynamiclly in the finished game.

Yes, I agree, it would make much sense. However, I have reason to believe that this, unlike the Ken-Walkthrough demo video, was actually a recorded on-the-spot play test.

The events that unfolded were a shot-for-shot duplicate of a scenario I read in PC Gamer where they reported with great exasperation the wild and "emergent" game-play that just "happened" on the spot while they were testing the game out. The teddy bear thing, and the mad grenade-throwing creep on the balcony... I read about this a good month or two before this video was released.

It was VERY cool to see it all in HD though. And this game is undoubtedly coming along with great qualities.

[Da Bubs]

Yes, I agree, it would make much sense. However, I have reason to believe that this, unlike the Ken-Walkthrough demo video, was actually a recorded on-the-spot play test.

The events that unfolded were a shot-for-shot duplicate of a scenario I read in PC Gamer where they reported with great exasperation the wild and "emergent" game-play that just "happened" on the spot while they were testing the game out. The teddy bear thing, and the mad grenade-throwing creep on the balcony... I read about this a good month or two before this video was released.

It was VERY cool to see it all in HD though. And this game is undoubtedly coming along with great qualities.

I wouldnt know, I dont have a subsription to PC Gamer or any other magizene for that matter. Thats pretty awsome if it all really was spontanus, I suspect that they record all their playtests thought just for that perpose.

[Raveness]

I'm rather averse to seeing enemies spawn on the spot during a fight just to add more confusion to the scenario. A better way to handle it is to have a clearly defined group of denizens for an active level, so that the player can scout out his potential adversaries, and the enemies should have a good sense of hearing (they are genetically enhanced) and be quickly alerted to danger from fair distances, rushing/teleporting in to join the fight from the best vantage point. Security drones should really be the only enemy that spawns on the spot of danger/action.

Mayhaps also having a situation where you have a particularily paranoid type of citizen alerted to the smallest sound, and their behavior is to conduct a teleport sweep of common areas in the level. You thought you may have snuck by them, but a minute later they teleport right in your face.

[Mr. Teatime]

A better way to handle it is to have a clearly defined group of denizens for an active level...

I'm pretty sure I read (or heard) something like that. That there are a finite number of enemies per level. Or that is.. I don't remember if it was a finite number, or the maximum number of enemies on a level simultaneously.

[Da Bubs]

I would think that the inhabitants of rapture dont just stay in there area, they go to other parts of the city, thus an explination for respawning

[Mr. Teatime]

I would think that the inhabitants of rapture dont just stay in there area, they go to other parts of the city, thus an explination for respawning

But if the bodies of dead inhabitants doesn't disappear, you would (eventually) need to use a levitate plasmid to get yourself from A to B.

Ja, ja... I know it's not in the game, but it could have been great fun. :)

[Da Bubs]

But if the bodies of dead inhabitants doesn't disappear, you would (eventually) need to use a levitate plasmid to get yourself from A to B.

Ja, ja... I know it's not in the game, but it could have been great fun. :)

or cannibalism.

your german I take it

[Mr. Teatime]

or cannibalism.

your german I take it

Well.. no. :confused:

I'm Norwegian.

EDIT: And about cannibalism. Do you want to eat the Little Sisters? Isn't it bad enough to beat them up with a wrench?

On the other hand: Attacking a Big Daddy with knife and fork could be very funny. Or eat your own leg when you are low on energy...

[Da Bubs]

Well.. no. :confused:

I'm Norwegian.

really? I know three words of german: ja, nein, and shiasa

[PolterChrist]

The fact that the AI are IDENTICAL leads me to believe there will be infinately spawning AI. Which is endlessly frusterating.

Here's an extremely better idea. Instead of infinately spawning weak AI enemies, how about a finite number of very dangerous NPCs. Way scarier to know that just one emeny can crush your skull, let alone running from 4.

In short, I want a game where running may be a better idea than fighting, barring yourself into a room and sneaking out the vent. Where an enemy is as capable of killing you as you are of it, maybe even more so.

Whacking hybrids with my wrench in SS2 (you're gonna hate me) got a little old.
Now, if the hybrids were equal to the player, then you would not need infinately spawning AI. They just didn't seem like Von Braun crew members with mind-controlling parasites. Prolly cuz they are identical to each other.

I just want the enemies to seem like crazed inhabitants, not wrench fodder.

[irrationallevine]

In the actual game, there are a finite number of Little Sisters per level. They don't magically spawn in, they wander the level looking for bodies to harvest Adam from (either pre-existing bodies, or bodies the player "creates").

The game has a sophisticated repopulation mechanic that simulates the large population of Rapture's Splicers. However, there are unique AIs that don't come under this scheme.

[PolterChrist]

Hopefully, the enemies will interact with each other, both positively and negatively.

Will they operate in packs? Will they fight each other? Will they ignore each other to attack you? (I hope not.)

[Silent Film]

Here's an extremely better idea. Instead of infinately spawning weak AI enemies, how about a finite number of very dangerous NPCs. Way scarier to know that just one emeny can crush your skull, let alone running from 4.

That much is evident from the videos we've seen so far, particularly with the Big Daddy the emphasis has always been on their power. I think in part in order to make the player fully consider their options (instead of automatically blundering in, finger on trigger), and obviously to provide a challenge.

I think if we are to revisit areas then at least some gradual respawning of enemies is necessary, so I don't mind that. I say gradual because I don't want to cross a load point, immediately cross back and discover all my dispatched foes alive again. I like the fact that enemies wander though, that way we never know exactly where they'll be.

[Mr. Teatime]

really? I know three words of german: ja, nein, and shiasa

Off topic, but let me explain:

Norwegian is, like English, a part of the Germanic group. As is Swedish, Danish and Dutch. Of course there are many more, but I don't know for sertain if they use "ja". German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and Dutch do.

Actually: I found it strange to write "yes, yes". Don't really know why....

[LowEnergyCycle]

Well, remaining off topic Mr Teatime - I think your English is pretty good compared to some of the language-savagery you usually see on these Interwebs. I've certainly read far worse. And it's 100% better than my Norwegian and German talents combined.

So Go You! The sky's the limit! Etcetera...

[Hatesink]

In the actual game, there are a finite number of Little Sisters per level. They don't magically spawn in, they wander the level looking for bodies to harvest Adam from (either pre-existing bodies, or bodies the player "creates").

The game has a sophisticated repopulation mechanic that simulates the large population of Rapture's Splicers. However, there are unique AIs that don't come under this scheme.That's great to hear, exactly how I'd like it to be. Thanx for the heads-up :)That does sound really cool— like it could mean a lot of varied gameplay and interesting unique characters to interact with. Also— the finite number of Little Sisters has some pretty exciting implications.

As for spawning in general, if it's logical and actually adds to the game rather than detracting from it I think it can be okay, but having said that I've only ever seen one game where it actually enhanced (rather than just sustaining) gameplay (Freedom Fighters), and on the whole I'd love to see an end to re-spawning (unless as a dynamic that makes absolute sense, as with Freedom Fighters (where there was a definite logical reason for the transportation of more A.I.s into the field, and where it clearly enhanced the gameplay)).

On a side note, if I remember correctly there was only a single room in Dark Corners that featured spawning. It was right after you found the Tommy Gun and could be exited immediately with hardly a need to fire that many bullets (it wouldn't surprise me if it was included just so that you could have some fun with the Tommy Gun (since I didn't find the Tommy Gun to be as much use as many of the other weapons in the game, although that could just be because of my own preferred style of play))

I'm rather averse to seeing enemies spawn on the spot during a fight just to add more confusion to the scenario. A better way to handle it is to have a clearly defined group of denizens for an active level, so that the player can scout out his potential adversaries, and the enemies should have a good sense of hearing (they are genetically enhanced) and be quickly alerted to danger from fair distances, rushing/teleporting in to join the fight from the best vantage point. Security drones should really be the only enemy that spawns on the spot of danger/action.Amen (almost)— if their hearing is too sensitive it could make things very frustrating, and could end up feeling broken. One of the worst aspects in gaming is 'psychic' AI, where they seem able to track you down regardless of how good your evasive tactics are. If their hearing was too good it'd be just like they were psychic. Also— if they can immediately identify your position and respond accordingly it'd probably just feel like every other shooter (i.e. people popping out already shooting regardless of how slowly you take it).

Mayhaps also having a situation where you have a particularily paranoid type of citizen alerted to the smallest sound, and their behavior is to conduct a teleport sweep of common areas in the level. You thought you may have snuck by them, but a minute later they teleport right in your face.The thing is, that may just lead you back into the psychic A.I. scenario. I guess they could exist with the purpose of directing the player into that scenario (if that's the kind of gameplay they prefer), maybe with some technique or plasmid for dealing with them in advance if you prefer a stealthy and/or more tactical approach (e.g. chameleon skin).

Hopefully, the enemies will interact with each other, both positively and negatively.

Will they operate in packs? Will they fight each other? Will they ignore each other to attack you? (I hope not.)I think the idea is that there's an existing ecosystem, which you proceed to disrupt through your actions; but if they were to just drop everything and attack you on sight it could probably be just as annoying as psychic A.I., but I think the idea is that they have a kind of ecological relationship (maybe there'll be ways to turn them against each other)

On the other hand: Attacking a Big Daddy with knife and fork could be very funny.Maybe the Big Daddy could identify you as a threat when he sees you approaching holding a knife and fork and with a serviette tucked into your shirt. ;)

[LowEnergyCycle]

Here's an extremely better idea. Instead of infinately spawning weak AI enemies, how about a finite number of very dangerous NPCs. Way scarier to know that just one emeny can crush your skull, let alone running from 4.

In short, I want a game where running may be a better idea than fighting, barring yourself into a room and sneaking out the vent. Where an enemy is as capable of killing you as you are of it, maybe even more so.

(To the sound of the On-Topic-Choo-Choo-Train pulling back into the station... Choo! Choo!)

Do you mean kinda like when, say, in Resi4 you're happily blasting Average Joes with a shotgun... Then you hear the unmistakable sound of a chainsaw revving... And now you know full well that there's a freakin' Bag Head nearby... and you're no longer the macho super-cop hero Leon Kennedy anymore...

...You're a quivering wreak of a man/woman (let's keep this P.C.), and you wish your Mother was here so you could cuddle into the relative safety of her bosom while she told him off and shooed him away with her slipper...

Yeah. That's nice. I absolutely love being reduced to a whimpering little child again.:o

:(

[Raveness]

No, it has nothing to do with psychic AI. The enemy uses its hearing to identify the general area where it hears danger emanating from, proceeds towards it at a pace just below full alert speed (like jogging), still has to traverse the distance from current place to where it hears the commotion, then has to identify what is going on, not always changing to attack state in front of the player (can be done whilst hiding and viewing the players actions), then switches state and decides to attack.

At any one point in the series of actions could the player evade, lay traps, misdirect, thus not having your typical psychic AI latching onto the player till death do them part.

The teleport idea would only be used on a more advanced enemy, it essentially only cuts down on the travel time, not anything else.

[Hatesink]

...At any one point in the series of actions could the player evade, lay traps, misdirect, thus not having your typical psychic AI latching onto the player till death do them part.That's an intriguing idea— being able to tease one away from the group, or away from whatever it is he's doing, and leading him into an ambush, or sending him on a wild goose chase so that you have safe passage and/or can do whatever it is you need to do.

It would be nice to see A.I.s looking for you in the wrong places; eventually wandering off in search of you.

Actually: I found it strange to write "yes, yes". Don't really know why....It doesn't look strange ;)

It might feel strange to write "yes" but, as an English speaker it seems stranger seeing "Ja" in an english sentence (your english is excellent).

[Mr. Teatime]

Well, remaining off topic Mr Teatime - I think your English is pretty good compared to some of the language-savagery you usually see on these Interwebs. I've certainly read far worse. And it's 100% better than my Norwegian and German talents combined.

So Go You! The sky's the limit! Etcetera...

It doesn't look strange ;)

It might feel strange to write "yes" but, as an English speaker it seems stranger seeing "Ja" in an english sentence (your english is excellent).

Thank you! That's great to hear after having spent about eight years trying to learn the language. But then I do spend some time trying to write as correct as possible. :)

However: It's not very special to read or write English in Norway. You learn a lot in school, and of course from movies, books and internet. You, on the other hand, have probably never heard a word Norwegian.

You haven't missed anything..

[Mr. Teatime]

It's funny you should say that. It annoys me that a lot of Europeans consider the British to be lazy because they only have one language, when most European countries have almost as much English shoved down their throats as they do their own language.

I didn't say anything about being lazy. I can't blame you, can I? I mean: What's the point of learning Norwegian? :p

EDIT: I read through my last post, and discovered that it could be taken as sarcasm. This wasn't the intention. Sorry.

[Mr. Teatime]

I did take you literally (I didn't think you were being sarcastic) :)

I was just making a general comment (I probably shouldn't have said anything).

Apologies for the confusion— I wasn't trying to be aggressive.

"It's funny you should say that" is an idiomatic term. It means almost the same as "It's interesting that you say that..."

Your english is so good, I kind of just assume you'd understand the 'idiolect'.

The meaning of my post was "I'm aware that most Europeans perceive the British as being lazy because we don't speak a second language, and so your comment surprises me."

First: You can say wathever you want. This is, after all, the "world wide web". ;)

Second: I do understand the meaning of "it's funny you should say that", but I failed to understand the post itself. Just defending my own linguistic capabilities. :cool:

PS: Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this, but I had to. :D

[Hatesink]

...Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this, but I had to. :DOn reflection, I was worried that my posts might be misconstrued, so I've deleted them from the thread (concerned that I might have caused offense). :/

[One0Shot]

I hate respawning with a passion. I shouldnt have to waste resources on something I already killed. Now if a completly different npc just wandered there then ok but not "wandered" on purpose.

[Hatesink]

I agree, it also forces the pace of the game and screws up the sense of spacial-logic, which in turn detracts from the immersion.

[Rapture_Tourist]

Normally it's stupid. I left a room with only one door and a corpse and after my re-entry, the enemy is alife again...idiotic.

On the other hand it would be boring as hell if I walk back somewhere in Rapture after I cleaned it and there is deadly silence.

Dynamic respawn could be an idea. I think not every single corner of Rapture is accessable. The city is just way too big. But it feels logical that new enemies can enter areas, you already cleaned. But this should happen after I have been away for some time and it must be at logical spots (a door, I wasn't able to open, where a NPC might have entered).

[Silent Film]

I don't mind respawning if done in a reasonable manner. What I don't like is when it is used to artificially increase the difficulty, or worse, to cover up weak AI programming.

I'd much rather face fewer, more cunning enemies, than droves of brainless ones.

[Gabby_Hayes]

The gameplay changes the story to suit it's needs. However playing through System Shock I realized that SHODAN could recondition human bodies that weren't entirely destroyed into cyborgs and churn out mutated animals by the bushel. This plot point made respawning plausible within the setting and didn't jar me that much.

Now there's the situation of the bodies being relatively low memory flat place-holder sprites within the engine that allowed Looking Glass to pull that off in the first System Shock.

Having not played the second System Shock I don't have any idea as to what occurred in the more memory intensive domain of polygon foe corpse disposal.

Now in BioShock you have an underwater city, a caveat that supports the player being isolated within an alien environment yet still having enough breathing targets to pump rounds into.

The bodies of your foes seem rich with detail and unless there's a lot of post-mortem gibbing going on that might clog up action to the point of slowdown and less fun.

For an interesting moment why not have a scripted event where some sort of 'body janitor' plods along tossing the bodies into a torso mounted woodchipper. This same 'body janitor' might been seen in the grove level delivering it's gory cargo to be mulched for fertilizer.

While Soylent Green is taken I'm sure the pre-civil war marketing geniuses might have had an ecological slant to some of their burial offers.

I know this isn't anything possible but somewhere in my heart of hearts there's a Big Daddy that got on the wrong side of Andrew Ryan and is stuck mopping up the bodies.

I do enjoy the 'Mutated city-goers wander into new areas' angle. If that could somehow be initiated by the player's actions after a certain portion of the critical path was accomplished. Perhaps there might be insane medics getting into brawls with fish-hook wielding divas on the shopping promenade. :D

[ckline]

That's an intriguing idea— being able to tease one away from the group, or away from whatever it is he's doing, and leading him into an ambush, or sending him on a wild goose chase so that you have safe passage and/or can do whatever it is you need to do.

It would be nice to see A.I.s looking for you in the wrong places; eventually wandering off in search of you.

You can definitely do this in Bioshock. You can throw objects to distract AIs, use telekinesis to drag bodies away from Little Sisters and get them to go running after them, use plasmids to create illusory enemies, cause them to fight your enemies for you, etc. Whatever you like.

-Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock