Remaining SecuROM/Activation talk here.

[2K Elizabeth]

hey guys,

here's a new securom and activation talk thread. here are rules:

1. don't insult each other, me, or any mods. even in a covert way will get you banned.
2. don't talk about why members have been banned. you can talk about them, and the topics they brought up, but from here on out, i don't discuss why i ban, or why mods ban.
3. don't start flame wars. i don't care if you love or hate SecuROM, let's stay civil.

if we can't keep this one in line, i'm not going to allow anymore. and that would suck, you guys are allowed to talk about this all you want. i don't want to be a censor, but i want to spend my time working on your updates, and not on policing people's posts.

[Pikey Joe]

So a thread with 3,241 posts and 319,340 views will now rapidly sink from view, thus hiding the level of discontent about Bioshock's shameful DRM from new members.

Nice.

Don't bother to ban me, I'm off anyway - I've wasted too much time here.

[wildquinine]

So a thread with 3,241 posts and 319,340 views will now rapidly sink from view, thus hiding the level of discontent about Bioshock's shameful DRM from new members.

Nice.

Don't bother to ban me, I'm off anyway - I've wasted too much time here.

Yes, I was just going to say - you should probably sticky that again, otherwise it won't be available as an information resource any more.

[2K Elizabeth]

Yes, I was just going to say - you should probably sticky that again, otherwise it won't be available as an information resource any more.

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

[wildquinine]

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

Thanks for that. It's good to see things in black and white again.

As you are aware, my primary concern is number 4.

If it works as intended, the release of the revoke tool will mean that - by finely controlling your PC installations (and for the first time in a game, your uninstallations as well) - you can maintain a number of activations indefinitely.

Please take the following points back to your employers:

If all software required you to uninstall it before you could format your hard drive, the process of maintaining a machine would be unreasonably impaired.

Since Bioshock is the first instance of this in a game, it would be unwise for me to support this scheme. I would not like to see this protection used again, and so I cannot reasonably support it.

Since the activation no longer functions to protect the game from experienced pirates, and the CD protection continues to protect the game from inexperienced pirates, the activation no longer affects piracy. It serves only to inconvenience the customer. It would be wise, fair, and prudent to remove it.

If there are reasons why it is not possible to remove it, we would appreciate honest answers.

Remember: the demo contained securom, and there was no CD check or activation on the demo. So we do know that securom does not have to be removed in order for the CD check and/or activation to be removed.

You can remove the limited activations without leaving an unprotected executable.

Leave the CD check if you must. Remove the limited activations.

[BioShockWins]

Man... call a mod "Mrs. Bubbles" and all hell breaks loose.

Hence the rule against insulting other users...

Isn't it strange how things work out like that?

[Destop]

Right. Tabula rasa.

Hence the rule against insulting other users...

Isn't it strange how things work out like that?


hey guys,

i just want to say we're not trying to hide or bury any complaints or comments. i unstickied this thread because every so often i go through and unstick threads that have been up for a couple weeks, just to clear up the forums and make sure we don't have too much clutter up there.

please try and be cordial to our mods and techs, even if you are unhappy. i welcome all your complaints to me -- but those guys are just trying to keep this place clean and efficient, and help you with your tech problems. you can yell at me, though!

Of course, the nice rules in the first post of this thread outdate this statement but still, there was the opening to "yell". Always be careful with openings.

I would like to take the occasion to support wildquinine's post and all the friendly advice contained therein. But I would also like to state - in a similarly cordial fashion - that in the future, if you use a DRM scheme with limited activation credits, communicate this in a timely manner and include an appropriate wording on the box so that consumers get all the relevant information and may take an informed purchase decision.

Until that piece manages to resonate within the industry, a piece of advice to the rest reading this. It comes from an individual with extremely high anticipations for a game, but then was sorely disappointed in a publishing house's DRM decision path and had to learn things the hard way.

Do not buy PC games on launch day anymore. Rather, wait a week or two and read forums/newsletters to discover whether or not the game contains features - in or out of the game - which do not appeal to you. No matter how great the game is or how much you're looking forward to it. Have the patience and search for the entire story. Unlike just about every other consumer product out there, reading the tin just isn't sufficient in the realm of PC gaming at this time, apparently. Very sad, but true.

... Or just go console, don't you know? No fuss, no problems, it's all about the game.

This is probably my last post in this thread and forum, where my freedom and that of all the other users to comment on things has been restricted. My last post probably, as the previous sentence can be interpreted as a covert insult towards the mod-ship and a violation of thread rule 1, instead of fact.

Take care.

[ddave]

Yes, I was just going to say - you should probably sticky that again, otherwise it won't be available as an information resource any more.

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

No offence Elizabeth, but while the input from you/2K can be summed up in four simple points as you have just done --and these are important, don't get me wrong--there was a lot more in the way of resources in the big thread (and the 'securom breaks U.S. federal law' thread that got shut down at the same time) than just your own contributions. Detailed instructions on removing securom and backing up Bioshock installs, to name but two. Advice on possible means of redress for consumers who feel hard done by for another. And more besides. Community at work and all that. I suspect this is the sort of thing wildquinine had in mind when suggesting a re-sticky. Failing that, it's open to a scrupulous mod to sticky a summary of such useful posts instead.

I'm a bit hesitant to post even this, though it's done in the spirit of clarification, because I think wildquinine's last post here, number *gulp* 5, deserves to be the last word on 'remaining securon/activation talk'.

Just before the big thread got shut down one of Elizabeth's posts said "decisions ...do not happen in days". Fair enough, but if 2K intended to uphold Ken's promise from the start there would have been no problem in putting out a confirmation quickly, so it seems there is some major mismatch between key players in 2K there. You have to know this looks really bad. Anyway, it seems the decision was/is still to be made. However many weeks or months it takes to get there, we'll surely see from the company's actions if they do follow through with the removal of activation.

If 2K don't remove it, *absolute* shame on them. If they do, this was all an abortive dog and pony show which battered the company's image for NOTHING.

[Oceanic Crash]

I don't understand what this thread is about. :(

[ddave]

Regarding Destop's post: yes, sound advice on seeing how the land lies with future PC releases. I'll never be there on release day again no matter who developed it.

But if this becomes the norm...I cannot get on with console controllers (though I've tried) so that will be the end of gaming for me after more years than I'd like to think about.

Funnily enough, after all this I can't say I'm too bothered about the prospect right now. Too nasty a taste.

Outstanding, 2K.

[Cornelius]

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

Did the revoke tool come from SONY DADC or did 2K develop it?
Will the revoke tool be provided with the PC patch?
How will the PC patch be delivered?
To whom should questions about removing activation be directed?

[2K Elizabeth]

Did the revoke tool come from SONY DADC or did 2K develop it?
Will the revoke tool be provided with the PC patch?
How will the PC patch be delivered?
To whom should questions about removing activation be directed?

we created the revoke tool with our activation partner and it will be a separate application from the PC patch. i do not yet know how the patch will be delivered.

i will give you any information when it becomes available about the future of activation for BioShock.

[ddave]

I don't understand what this thread is about. :(

Bioshock's limited activation scheme has been introduced without proper warnings and it changes the nature of what you are buying. There are also concerns about what it leaves behind when it's uninstalled. There is a 300,000+ view post heading rapidly south where the implications of this are gone over. You could start with post 3076 there as a quick intro.

If you can't find it by the time you get back to this, just order the sub-forum by number of views and it will be at the top. :eek:

[BioShockWins]

Quick Question: What would "Proper Warning" be?

[ddave]

Quick Question: What would "Proper Warning" be?

Specifics on the box. Let's not do this again, please.

[Oceanic Crash]

Oh.. This is probably about the PC, which I don't do any high quality gaming on. The only games I play on PC are Civilization, CS:S, Garry's Mod, and Sims 2.

I can't afford a awesome graphics card, that is what my 360 is for. =P

[Mr.Bubblez]

Oh.. This is probably about the PC, which I don't do any high quality gaming on. The only games I play on PC are Civilization, CS:S, Garry's Mod, and Sims 2.

I can't afford a awesome graphics card, that is what my 360 is for. =P

Yes to clarify Securom is a PC ONLY issue. It is not used the the 360 version.

[Destop]

Specifics on the box. Let's not do this again, please.

I'll just quote an example to you and BioShockWins as a sort of FYI. The back of my Halflife 2 box reads:

NOTICE: Product offered subject to your acceptance of the Steam Subscriber Agreement ("SSA"). You must activate this product via the internet by registering for a Steam account and accepting the SSA. Please see www.steampowered.com/agreement to view the SSA prior to purchase. If you do not agree with the provisions of the SSA, you should return this game unopened to your retailer in accordance with their return policy.

Good enough?

I have read that this wasn't on the Halflife 2 box on release day, either, so I kind of hoped the industry had learned by example. It hasn't. It is, though, a proper warning as to what one may expect inside the Halflife 2 tin.

Anyway, it's good to see this kind of moderator involvement in the thread. The question "Why couldn't this have been the case for "the" thread even though it was asked for there weeks ago?" begs itself to attention. Oh well.

[AlienMind]

i don't care if you love or hate SecuROM

that's why your company still uses that ******* (see, i censored myself, lol) thing.

[BioShockWins]

@ Destop.

S'allight man, thanks.

Just wanted to see, because I don't really have any experience with this.

[ddave]

Hey Destop, I understand the issues fully, dontcha know; we've been on the same page all the time as far as I can see. I just didn't want to spell it all out again.

But now that you've started... Bioshock's warnings should include:

You have a limited number of activations. If you change hardware activations may be used up. If you uninstall the game activations are used up (this may change). Each account requires its own activation. When you run out of activations you will either have to ring an overseas number (for non-US buyers) or have a digital camera to send us a photo of your manual and discs. When we shut down the activation servers the install disc becomes useless. Remains of the copy protection software will not uninstall when the game in uninstalled.

Did I miss anything? :D

I agree it's depressing that the industry doesn't seem to have learned anything.

[matches81]

This is one of the saddest things I have witnessed in any forum I have visited until today. But, I have to admit: Elizabeth was "right" to lock the other thread. While it would have been good to keep that >3000 posts thread to simply show the importance of the matter, the last 2 pages of that thread were purely consisting of discussion about the banning of 2 users. Elizabeth warned us about that. I know it's not a good thing to exclude this topic from a forum by a rule. But that's how it is, sadly. So, by the rules, she was in every right to lock the thread.
Still: It seems possible to delete other posts that are against the rules. I guess it was just more "comfortable" to close the whole thread down. Locking a thread that gets by far the most views per day and outweighs the first 5 pages of the whole "General Discussion" forum (that's a guess based on the first 3 pages) is pretty sad.

Back on topic:
I mostly agree with wildquinine's post. The most pressing matter is definitely the limited activation credits and if the guys at 2K would bother to think about what they're currently doing they would see that this revoke tool makes those limited activations completely unnecessary anyway.
a) Pirates don't bother with your activation limits anyway, they got it cracked _weeks_ ago
b) Your revoke tool allows legit users to install Bioshock as often as they want, as long as there are no more than 5 installations present at any given time. Are you really bothered by that < 1% of legit customers that might actually install Bioshock on more than 5 systems at once?

As wildquinine mentions: It would be rather thoughtless of me to support such a mechanism as a revoke tool. If the customers accept this measure, they're probably facing more games with such a mechanism. That leaves them with running a revoke tool / explicitely uninstalling every game they have prior to formatting the drive. This is simply not tolerable.

Maybe I'm not the wisest guy on the planet, but I think your revoke tool is useless anyway and a much simpler solution to the problem would have been to remove activation limits right when pirates cracked your online activation system. So: Do that now and keep at least the small piece of hope legit customers like us still have with you.

Furthermore, an issue wildquinine doesn't talk about anymore in his post:
2K's policy of "contact SecuROM for uninstall help, we won't uninstall it" clearly breaks the law of many nations (any 3rd party product installed with your software should be uninstalled with your software), just as the unannounced installation of SecuROM does. 2K's job would have been to consider both of these points prior to using SecuROM. You decided to use a copy protection system that offers no sensible maintenance facilities, be it for removing one application from the SecuROM data on the system or for the removal of SecuROM altogether, if no protected apps are left on the system. Your failure, your responsibility to fix.
Additionally 2K is breaking the EULA included in the Bioshock manual with the current state of the product in several points. (The german EULA mentions that I'm allowed to install the product as often as I want, as long as I have only one installation at a time, just as an example)
How is 2K thinking about these issues and how are they going to adress them?

If I may quote Elizabeth's statement from the previous thread:

please do bear in mind that decisions and changes do not happen in days, and also that many questions have been answered, even though you do not like the answers you were given

"decisions and changes do not happen in days" actually made me laugh. We're not in the realms of "days" any more. It's "weeks" now, some people might even say "months", seeing that we're almost closer to two months now. The peak of Bioshock is over. If 2K takes 1 month for every answer and another 2 months to get their decisions done... ouch.

[Destop]

Hey Destop, I understand the issues fully, dontcha know; we've been on the same page all the time as far as I can see. I just didn't want to spell it all out again.

But now that you've started... Bioshock's warnings should include:

You have a limited number of activations. If you change hardware activations may be used up. If you uninstall the game activations are used up (this may change). Each account requires its own activation. When you run out of activations you will either have to ring an overseas number (for non-US buyers) or have a digital camera to send us a photo of your manual and discs. When we shut down the activation servers the install disc becomes useless. Remains of the copy protection software will not uninstall when the game in uninstalled.

Did I miss anything? :D

I agree it's depressing that the industry doesn't seem to have learned anything.

I think you managed to capture the essence of it. And yes, we're on the same page and I am having a similar reluctance to retrace my steps. However, in the light of things, this thread is nothing short of a tabula rasa. Some foundation has to be laid to give it some substance and texture. Hence the FYI.

About your final paragraph: I could theorise a little on why the industry doesn't seem to have learned anything, but without hard evidence, it would remain just a theory. I'm curious, however, as to how many incomplete box descriptions we will see on a PC game's launch day in the future, now that two precedents have been set involving two commercially successful products.

[Charon Xeno]

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

I must admit, that gave me a hearty laugh. People who lost their activations are still screwed, and now SecuRom/2k Games have even better options to have them jump through loops. (So you have no activations left? YOU FILTHY PIRATE! If you were a honest customer you'd have used our excellent uninstall tool and not have this problem. Shame on you. *spits* *sighs* But we shall be generous, as unworthy as you are, grovel and beg for only 4 more weeks and we - in our infinite kindness - may consider allowing you install the software one additional time.)
And best of all, the announcement in the past "we'll get rid of the limit, its just to protect our initial sales" - haha, sucks to be a paying customer of 2k Games.

Pirates: 3 - 2k Games: 0 - Customers: minus infinity.

[SimpleSimon]

2K make a number of questionable decisions when they decided how to distribute Bioshock. Many of us are questioning whether it is even legal to distribute this software in this way.

- The software isn't actually provided to the purchaser. This puts the "owner" at risk of losing the software should 2K decide to close shop.

- The software isn't actually sold, but rented. Two installations (now changed to five) and you need to buy another copy. Computer crashed? Too bad. Had installation troubles? Too bad.

- The software permanently alters the computer. After installing Bioshock it is impossible to remove from your PC. In addtion, it is always running on your PC, even when you aren't actually playing the game. To make matters worse, when 2K is asked to provide support for THEIR software, they tell you to go deal with another company, which the user has no actual dealings with.

...and there are other legal issues as well.

What can we do about this?

[SimpleSimon]

...and just in case the old thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12909)disappears from view, it can be found right here (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12909).

[z3razerviper]

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

1. Its been going on a month how could this be taking so long. I know development takes time but this should just be a count in a database those are not hard to update

2. Cool

3. The product was purchaced from 2k games not Sony(securom). If 2k installs it they need to give there customers a way to uninstall it.

4. This is what is MOST important to me. 2k really needs to give a update on this. A commit date would be nice.

[Chone]

When you buy software, you don't really buy it, otherwise you'd be buying the source code along with it.

You just buy the right (or license) to use it freely.

So it's not exactly illegal (though I'm not sure) but it sure as hell is a pretty bad decision by 2K Games and Sony should be slapped in the face for ever developing SecuROM in the first place.

[Ardath]

I was so looking forward to Bioshock. I was saving money for a new computer that would run it. However, when I learned about the invasive nature of the DRM scheme selected for the game, I spent my money elsewhere.

1) I will not purchase a game that limits my ability to install it. This is especially true when the box did not clearly and specifically spell out this limitation. I was willing to buy a new computer just to play this game, but I will not allow a game to compromise my computer. That is how strongly I feel about this matter.

2) The fact that I have to jump through hoops to uninstall the stealth DRM from my computer adds to cost of the game. Time is money. Not to mention that I play games to relax, not to be frustrated by complex installation and uninstall procedures.

3) The cost of creating a patch to deal with this DRM mess adds to the cost of developing the game. I doubt this cost was anticipated.

4) The software and music and movie industries are struggling with the fact that technology allows works to be copied and distributed quickly. Ease of production and distribution is double-edged sword. It saves the industry money and makes them vulnerable at the same time. I feel for them. But I do not copy and distribute music, software or movies. I am an honest person. I am a potential customer. And by not leveling with me, you have lost my trust.

So while I envy those that have experienced the beauty that is Bioshock, I cannot bring myself to buy it. It just feels wrong to support this kind of business model. I suppose time will tell if 2K's decision was a good one.


Ardath

[2K Elizabeth]

this is a duplicate thread that can be merged into the securom thread... so i'm doing that!

[yogibbear]

I'm going to repost this, as it is the only way at the moment to remove securom until 2k give us something, hence it is valuable information: all credit to mhonzell. Note: proceed at your own risk. And depending on how the revoke tool works, you'll lose an activation. (might be able to recover it with that).

Are you done with the game and want to remove the so-called Rootkit:
Method 1:
* If you know SecurROM will be involved, make a backup prior to installation and simply restore the backup when you are done.

Method 2:
Disclaimer 1: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you are reasonably computer literate and have backed-up your entire system.
Disclaimer 2: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you have no games installed which require Securom to be present.
Disclaimer 3: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you previously had to authorised your PC with Securom before you could play a game and that game is now uninstalled.

* Step 1: Uninstall Bioshock.

* Step 2: Remove the Securom registry entries.
The Securom registry entries are deliberately made non-removable by default. In order to remove them download the RegDeNull.mspx RegDelNull registry editing utility from Microsoft and install it on your C partition.
Run the following two commands from a Windows command prompt: "C:\regdelnull HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\SecuROM -s" and "C:\regdelnull HKEY_USERS\<Computer specific key>\Software\SecuROM -s" where "<Computer specific key>" can be determined by searching the registry for the "Securom" directory key. This "<Computer specific key>" typically has a form like "S-1-5-21-2052111302-1757341266-724545543-500". Once these two RegDelNull commands have been successfully issued the registry should be checked to confirm that these two keys have been deleted. If they are still present they will now be removeable due to the action of the RegDelNull utility.

* Step 3: Removal of the Securom service and related utilities.
Open a Windows command prompt and change directory to "c:\windows\system32". Type "uaservice7 /remove". This will stop the Securom user access service, and clean up its relevant registry entries. On the Windows command prompt type "regsvr32 /u cmdlineext.dll". Reboot and then manually delete the files "uaservice7.exe" and "cmdlineext.dll" from "c:\windows\system32". Note: Both of these files are Securom installed files which can be verified by checking their file properties (Right click - Properties).

* Step 4: Removal of Securom files under "C:\Documents and Settings".
Securom installs a hidden directory with 6 files under "C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom". The first 4 ordinary text files can simply be manually deleted once Windows explorer has been configured to show hidden files and folders. The two remaining malformed nominally unremoveable files require a special method to delete: Invoke a Windows command prompt with full Administrator privileges by typing the following into a Windows command prompt: "at <your current time + 1 minute> /interactive %systemroot%\system32\cmd.exe" e.g. "at 9:02pm /interactive %systemroot%\system32\cmd.exe". This will open a new Administrator command line when the time set has been attained. In this new command prompt change directory into the Securom folder e.g. "cd C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom". Issue the following command to show the two remaining hidden malformed files: "dir /A". To delete the two remaining hidden malformed files issue the following command: "del /F /AH *". Confirm "yes" for each of the two file deletions of the malformed files. Finally, the directory "C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom" can be deleted as per normal practice from within Windows explorer.

Oh and i'll just summarise my (remaining) main points that can be found throughout that godzilla thread:

1. why make such a draconian drm protection scheme that only hurts your legitimate customers?

2. why do #1 if you don't have proper software like the revoke tool for activation and an uninstall for securom ready? Surely it was obvious to everyone at 2k that this would be an issue?

3. why am i renting this game? why is there no .exe on the dvd that i bought? This potentially violates any kind of consumer laws... (been posted a thousand times so i won't elaborate here).

4. can 2k acknowledge that they screwed up? We want to love you. And if you can remove the activations, somehow remove securom, i'm sure we'd all get along nicely again.

[Laser Eyes]

excellent idea, i'll give a rundown on the information i have given out thus far:

1. revoke tool is in final testing and coming soon. announcement will be posted here as soon as it goes live.
2. we are beta testing a PC patch.
3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.
4. i have no information about removing activations entirely.

I'm sure you must have seen statements from Ken both on these forums and elsewhere that the activation procedure would be removed eventually. His statement seems to contradict your number 4. Is what he said no longer valid?

[Laser Eyes]

from here on out, i don't discuss why i ban, or why mods ban.

No reason given for bans eh? Not even to the person being banned?

I think that sounds like a really really bad idea.

Have you ever heard the saying 'Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done'?

[Cornelius]

we created the revoke tool with our activation partner and it will be a separate application from the PC patch. i do not yet know how the patch will be delivered.

Did SONY DADC provide 2K with the tools (as part of the SecuROM package) to create the revoke application or did you have to go back to SONY DADC for that functionality?

Can you find out how the PC patch will be delivered (or how it is being delivered to beta testers)?

Is SecuROM currently being used check the version of the game against a server after installation (whenever the Bioshock is run or some other interval)?

[Silus]

This is one of the saddest things I have witnessed in any forum I have visited until today. But, I have to admit: Elizabeth was "right" to lock the other thread. While it would have been good to keep that >3000 posts thread to simply show the importance of the matter, the last 2 pages of that thread were purely consisting of discussion about the banning of 2 users. Elizabeth warned us about that. I know it's not a good thing to exclude this topic from a forum by a rule. But that's how it is, sadly. So, by the rules, she was in every right to lock the thread.
Still: It seems possible to delete other posts that are against the rules. I guess it was just more "comfortable" to close the whole thread down. Locking a thread that gets by far the most views per day and outweighs the first 5 pages of the whole "General Discussion" forum (that's a guess based on the first 3 pages) is pretty sad.


I direct you to one of my last posts in that thread then:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227511&postcount=3235

2K Elizabeth didn't even bother to answer that, because the answer is quite simple, which I state right here:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227516&postcount=3238

So, do you still think it's "right" to close the thread ? I really don't think so...

On Topic:

There's not a single thing that needs to be said, that wasn't already mentioned, in the thread that was wrongly closed.
We were told our posts were being read, but that was yet another obvious lie. We asked for the removal of install limits and we were promised a smokescreen "revoke tool", which is being "tested" for over a month now. The only thing being really tested, is out patience.

I reiterate what I said countless other times in "the" thread that was closed. If the mechanism to get our credits back, when we uninstalled the game, was really in place, as 2K advertised I might add, we wouldn't require a "revoke tool". We were simply lied to yet again. The debacle with the activation limits not even mentioned anywhere on the box or EULA, is a very serious mistake and, if nothing else, 2K will pay for that with their future titles.

Of course I mean PC titles, not console ones. Your main priority was obvious from day one. The demo debacle was laughable at best and your dubious forum moderation, was visible at that time too. So to sum up:

- Horrible customer support
- Horrible forum moderation
- Rules are different, depending on your stance on a specific matter
- Lies

Seriously, can we trust 2K for anything else in the future ? I don't think so and your future PC titles will feel that. I know I'm not the only one with this opinion, so there, lost sales and you didn't even release your next game.
Go ahead and call me a pirate. You already called me one, when you didn't disclose very important information about your game's idiotic copy protection system.

[trexmaster]

Dear ... Errr no ... 2K,

I'm going to post the links to the 2 threads that have been closed.

Original Securom Thread :
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12909

Original Securom & the Law Thread :
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8250&page=23

I've said all I had to say in both of these threads, and I'm sorry to have to say that you haven't adressed any of the issues raised.

I'm off because it's too boring to talk to a wall.

Oh, and make this a sticky again.

An angry customer.

[Ric]

I wanted to reply to Destop re: Regulation in the software industry and its relevance to Securom; the thread was culled and my opportunity to respond to it in a cohesive framework went with it. Hopefully Destop can follow up.

The fact is that the software industry simply isn't well regulated. By its very nature, an industry that has only been prevalent for 2 or 3 decades, there is a significant lack of legal precedence, and law is based on precedence. This gave rise to the situation where the European High Court was used to pursue, what were in effect Nation State claims, against Microsoft, its business practices and IP rights over its code base: a lack of precedence. The same lack of precedence exists with respect to software DRM, currently the model applied to digital music is used with respect to software IP. This is neither a useful or a fair method and until sufficient precedence has been set -- precedence that weighs in in the favor of the consumer -- the current situation is unlikely to change. The sad fact of the matter is that the only legal work available to lawyers is that in the employ of the Software industry and their function is to secure legal precedence in favor of said industry. This does not imply that any legal framework created will be fair for the consumer.

Currently DRM issues are being controlled by the industry itself, and again, this is of no benefit to consumers who have to suffer invasions of privacy in order to use what is nothing more than a piece of entertainment. The absurdity of such a draconian state of affairs should be signaling alarm bells in the minds of certain bodies. That it hasn't, or has yet to manifest itself, is an indication of the firm legal footing obtained by the industry, and again, that does not imply fairness: just precedence.

[Kyorisu]

3. don't start flame wars. i don't care if you love or hate SecuROM, let's stay civil.

But you should care. Well more or less the company you work for should care and pay heed to why people hate the solutions 2K has used.

[Destop]

I wanted to reply to Destop re: Regulation in the software industry and its relevance to Securom; the thread was culled and my opportunity to respond to it in a cohesive framework went with it. Hopefully Destop can follow up.

Follow up. Right, but I'm going to be brief so as not to spam (too much).

Your point is besides the matter I am talking about. No industry, not even young ones, can play some magical rookie card and not adhere to the general legal framework already in place.

I haven't been talking about specialised DRM law, I have been talking about general consumer law. Which even the software industry must follow. And within consumer law, Bioshock PC is very likely to make itself guilty of a so-called misleading business practice, a term outlined by the European Community.

Here is my point, one which I've repeatedly stated in the past, based on common sense: companies have a right to protect their products any way they see fit. I have absolutely no problems with that. However, if that protection includes features which the average consumer (no expert, no psychic) should know about because it affects the purchase decision, then the company must inform the user about it beforehand. If they don't, then they have misled the customer.

Simple, no? In extreme terms, if I protected my product by adding a raging pitbull to it upon delivery to your house, wouldn't you as the customer like to know that beforehand? Oh wait, I don't have to tell you anything, I have got my rookie card right here.

If I can believe that which I have read, Halflife 2 PC apparently made itself guilty of this (and corrected it after the initial sales push). Bioshock PC did it too (and will correct it after the initial sales push?). Do you really want more precedence? Or should history repeat itself a couple more times, and new throngs of customers walk into the same kind of thing over and over again?

Well, if that's the trend then at least I can take comfort in the fact that I, personally, am now fully aware of these business practices. As such, I will never buy a PC game on launch day anymore - whether it's the best thing on Earth or not - but rather wait and see. Wanted to buy Hellgate: London on launch, but that's not going happen anymore. And that awareness, Ric, is the best thing to come out of this entire ordeal.

Now to end with a fitting quote aptly summarising the above, sad realisation: "If companies don't trust you anymore, why should you trust companies?"

[oddy]

...Of course I mean PC titles, not console ones. Your main priority was obvious from day one. The demo debacle was laughable at best and your dubious forum moderation, was visible at that time too. So to sum up:

- Horrible customer support
- Horrible forum moderation
- Rules are different, depending on your stance on a specific matter
- Lies

Seriously, can we trust 2K for anything else in the future ? I don't think so...

This I strongly agree with.

The way the company has treated us as paying customers of the PC version has been simply disgusting.

The company can keep trying to brush these apparently "old" issues under the rug all they want, but those of us affected by them won't forget.

YOUR game (since it seems I only rent it) will be traded in for cash off UT3 next month. That is assuming retailers will accept it for trade in given everyone in the games business now knows of the outrageous activation limitations.

Disgusting debacle.

[debacler]

I stopped following this issue about a month ago. I figured I'd wait a while to see how 2K would handle things. Based on how things were going a month ago, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see that they haven't handled anything. Honestly, a (vaporware) revoke tool? Really? Hasn't a revoke tool been obsolete since, what, 9 days after the game was released?

For my part, I don't care anymore. At this point it doesn't matter what 2K does about the situation, because regardless, neither myself nor anyone I can influence will be purchasing anything from them again. There's no shortage of great games from much better companies.

As a piece of advice, 2K, you guys desperately need to shape up. Your insane policies, terrible support, poor forum moderation, and complete unwillingness/inability to respond to questions and concerns are costing you longtime customers.

That said, there’s really nothing left to talk about. Mods, feel free to ban my account. I don't want it anymore.

[beacon99]

Well, I bought the game (fabulous product) and installed this mess of a DRM on my machine despite not wanting to. It is NOT easy to remove, due to the 2 bizarre registry entries, and still bothers me.

More than the DRM though, 2K's handling of the situation has made it so I will buy their games last when given options between 2 solid products.

300,000 views on the last post, left stickied for months, and honestly, almost nothing from 2K to even open a discourse with their customers.

I don't want to rehash my issues again...I did that in the soon-to-disappear thread.

Great game, horrific DRM, even worse 2K correspondence for their customer's concerns. 2K will ultimately lose customers over this.

[beacon99]

Edit: And it should say something to 2K that despite one of the best critical backings of any game launched recently, over 95% of discussions/posts on these threads since release has been over the DRM & Widescreen choices.

[luseferous]

With regards to my pursuing 2k over there stuff the customer policies.
I have been forwarded here.

Hope this is of use to those in the UK that wish to do more than wait for 2k's mythical solutions.

The contact details for the Information Commissioner are as follows:



The Information Commissioner's Office

Wycliffe House
Water Lane
Wilmslow
Cheshire
SK9 5AF

08456 30 60 60
01625 54 57 45


The Information Commissioner enforce the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003, and it is my understanding that Regulation 6 of this legislation would cover your enquiry. To help you further I have attached some guidance.

[toto952]

I'm sure you must have seen statements from Ken both on these forums and elsewhere that the activation procedure would be removed eventually. His statement seems to contradict your number 4. Is what he said no longer valid?
What a surprise!!

[2K Elizabeth]

No reason given for bans eh? Not even to the person being banned?

I think that sounds like a really really bad idea.

Have you ever heard the saying 'Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done'?

of course the banned person gets warnings, and then a reason when banned. backseat moderation, however, is a no-no here. it is on most forums.

[Ric]

...

Now to end with a fitting quote aptly summarising the above, sad realisation: "If companies don't trust you anymore, why should you trust companies?"

I think we're roughly of the same mind. I don't like what has happened either; however, it is (for the most part) a world run by law, and knowing something is wrong doesn't equate to being able to do a damned thing about it. That is where my argument about precedence lays. I agree wholly with the sentiment of your final message, and I adhere to much the same principle. The bottom line is that we may as well be yelling into an empty bucket on this is issue.

[matches81]

I direct you to one of my last posts in that thread then:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227511&postcount=3235

2K Elizabeth didn't even bother to answer that, because the answer is quite simple, which I state right here:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227516&postcount=3238

So, do you still think it's "right" to close the thread ? I really don't think so...

I think you misunderstood me. (I read your posts in the last thread, too)
There was a reason why I put "right" in quotation marks, and I think my formulation at the end of my post regarding the locking of the old thread fits much better: "So, by the rules, she was in every right to lock the thread."
I don't think it was a good or the right thing to close the thread, but by the rules of this forum it was a given possibility to do so. I also said that deleting the "offending" posts would have been a better solution IMHO, because that >3000 posts thread simply shows how much the customers care about this issue. But: Let's just do another >3000 posts thread. ;)

@Ric:
Legally this has not much to do with precedence or not. 2K is pretty obviously breaking the law in several points, you don't need precedence for that. Precedence is only really useful in doubtful cases. But being right by the law and getting your rights are two different things, sadly.

On topic:
I think I've made my points pretty clear in the last few posts I made, but they're pretty long. Others have made the same points over and over again. 2K: Answer us already, would you kindly?

[SimpleSimon]

this is a duplicate thread that can be merged into the securom thread... so i'm doing that!

Actually, it WASN'T a duplicate thread. I was NOT discussing Securom.

[miasma]

of course the banned person gets warnings, and then a reason when banned. backseat moderation, however, is a no-no here. it is on most forums.

That's a lie. You have banned people on here with no warning at all.

[miasma]

Of course, the nice rules in the first post of this thread outdate this statement but still, there was the opening to "yell". Always be careful with openings.

I would like to take the occasion to support wildquinine's post and all the friendly advice contained therein. But I would also like to state - in a similarly cordial fashion - that in the future, if you use a DRM scheme with limited activation credits, communicate this in a timely manner and include an appropriate wording on the box so that consumers get all the relevant information and may take an informed purchase decision.

Until that piece manages to resonate within the industry, a piece of advice to the rest reading this. It comes from an individual with extremely high anticipations for a game, but then was sorely disappointed in a publishing house's DRM decision path and had to learn things the hard way.

Do not buy PC games on launch day anymore. Rather, wait a week or two and read forums/newsletters to discover whether or not the game contains features - in or out of the game - which do not appeal to you. No matter how great the game is or how much you're looking forward to it. Have the patience and search for the entire story. Unlike just about every other consumer product out there, reading the tin just isn't sufficient in the realm of PC gaming at this time, apparently. Very sad, but true.

... Or just go console, don't you know? No fuss, no problems, it's all about the game.

This is probably my last post in this thread and forum, where my freedom and that of all the other users to comment on things has been restricted. My last post probably, as the previous sentence can be interpreted as a covert insult towards the mod-ship and a violation of thread rule 1, instead of fact.

Take care.

That's a pretty good post - if it's your last, not a bad way to go out.

[tessieroo]

Wow......searching online for more info on SecuROM and came across you guys. Read the thread and saw this:

Originally Posted by Oceanic Crash
Oh.. This is probably about the PC, which I don't do any high quality gaming on. The only games I play on PC are Civilization, CS:S, Garry's Mod, and Sims 2.

Sims 2 - Bon Voyage has SecuROM on it. (until now EA games used SafeDisk, dunno why they changed but I'm guessing money) Entire Sims community is in uproar over it right now. CD/DVD drives being disabled, Sandisk's not reading, Nero being disabled, problems with camera and printers........the Sims community is filing complaints with the FTC as SecuROM is a SONY product and they should know better. They've tried this before and got slapped for installing programs on consumers computers without consent or knowledge.

It's getting seriously ugly in the sims world right now. :(

[yogibbear]

Also i was reading over at www.hardwarezone.com

that Blue Ray disc have DRM on them... called BD+ or something (if i remember from the few hours or so i read it. Bad memory, was playing revnholm again before ep2 tomorrow.)

and there's a BIG uproar about that too. As who the hell does firmware upgrades to their blue ray player? (Personally i don't own one, but that's like hooking your dvd player up to the internet every now and again to download firmware that may/may not be supported by your device just so you can play the blue ray discs that you bought from the store).... isn't sony the one pushing blue ray anyway?

How the hell does that combat piracy?

I think over the next couple of years this DRM issue is going to become BIG. I don't like it, a lot of people don't like it. So if your legitimate customers don't like it why the hell are you letting Sony DADC do this to us?

Anyhow. If you remove all activation limits i will be able to cope with removing securom the long way. Cope being not a light word. But i still don't see why there's no .exe on our disc that we bought in a shop.

[yogibbear]

I so wish i had an edit button at the moment. So many typing errors.

[ARShrike]

First, I just want to point out that I find it interesting that a number of posts in this thread end with "ban me if you want...". While it's possible for these ppl to come back again with new logins, I wonder how many other forums have so many ppl that frustrated with the subject matter at hand.

A while ago, I remember someone in here pointing out that 2K would just wait out the negative feedback, letting those people eventually just wear themselves out. If this was the goal, another star to 2K!

My hats off to those walking away, as you are doing something I wish I could (just like a battered-spouse, I keep coming back thinking 2K really cares about me, and will change).

Separate note:
If I was only unfortunate enough to install ONE of 2K's pieces of software, the demo, do I need to follow the steps posted in this thread for removing Secure-Rom? Do I have a full-fledged dosing of it on my computer? If not, please link me to a post specific for removing the demo's stain from my computer, just as I have and will continue to remove all things 2K from my life, as well as all those I can inform.

Customers Lost: me and my friends
Total Customers Lost: lots more

I doubt this is the kind of math Ken would have wanted...

@#!@@...
what's that noise?...
I think it's someone's voice...
it is!...
but it's muffled...
Oh, nevermind, it's just Ken, and it's not muffled, it's Muzzled.:(

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

So as not to allow the information to sink out of view, I decided to copy here what I had posted in the other thread, that is now quickly disappearing.

Some good news?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it may be for some...

Apparently, 2K has committed several hundred thousand criminal offenses. This unfortunately is only the case with the retail boxed copies, Steam versions are exempt, as well as any other "digitally downloaded" content. (although if you were to look, you could find some exceptions.)

According the the US. CFAA (Computer Fraud & Abuse Act) It is deemed a criminal offense to install software on a users PC (personal computer, that means Private property) without notification or consent. Any software that is installed on a users PC must allow the the user the choice to ACCEPT or DECLINE ANY software being installed. Furthermore, any software installed must be accompanied by an appropriate way to remove it, as well as it may NOT be installed in a way that it is "hidden" and/or as a "payload" of the primary software install. Since Bioshock installs SecuRom without user notification or consent, and it's hidden from the user with no notification or appropriate method for the user to either accept or decline the install of it, and when uninstalled, leaves SecuRom behind, 2k has violated federal regulations that protect the end user. That means you, the paying customer.
(the UK has similar, if not stricter regulations in effect. Finding them is another question, but they do exist, just like in the US. Sometimes you may need a translator to even understand and interpret the documents, but if you do your homework, you will find all of it.)

Now SecuRom itself has many questions surrounding it, but Sony, isn't responsible for these notifications. The installation software is, since SecuRom is a stand alone product from a completely different manufacturer. 2K installed it without asking the user, or without properly disclosing it use.

I have already filed with the FTC (federal trade commission), CPB (Consumer Protection Board, (each state has one, look up yours and file)), the NYSOAG (New York State Office of the Attorney General (again, contact yours to file)), and the DHS (Dept. of Homeland Security (please research the CFAA as to why file with the DHS. A very brief explanation of which is, if you are one of the hundreds of thousands of people who are provided a laptop or home system by an employer that is either a government office, or contracted by the government. The user of the hardware is authorized to it's use and to install whatever they wish, as it normally would be their responsibility to determine what is safe to install, and what is not. The computer/hardware however, remains government property, and anything installed MUST adhere to the regulations and laws set forth to protect a federal/government system. Since Bioshock never disclosed the hidden software to the authorized user, there is no way for the authorized users to have known, and software was installed on a government computer system with no notification, thus no permission. That alone is a HUGE federal offense, one of which I'm sure has been committed many times over since many people are given hardware by their employees to use.))

Again, do the research, you will find what I have. (For the UK. AGAIN, you have the same if not very similar regulations that govern the use and installation of hidden software, as well as software installations requiring user notification/consent. Please do your research and file with whoever you need to. There are other regulations in effect as well in the US. besides the CFAA, but they can be harder to comb through to find the direct passage and subsection which applies to you as an individual. That is why I keep saying, do some work and research, make some calls, send out e-mails, you will be surprised at what you find.

I and a friend of mine have personally filed, as well as gotten an additional 150 complaints filed from a local office, with more to come. The great thing is you DON'T have to own the software in question, you just have to be aware of the offense/s being committed and report it. Upon investigation, the agencies and organizations responsible will provide their own research by not only taking several titles off the shelf to compare, but also they make sure the company involved sends in a copy, so the hidden software install and failure to ask for permission from the user installing the software will be self evident.

Don't take my word for it, do the research yourself.

With any luck, this can be the start to an end, to software companies trying to force anything they wish on the paying customer. It is our money we spend, we deserve to know what we are getting before we buy it, and the law protects that right for each individual. if 2K needs to be the example set, then so be it, they deserve it for not allowing someone to make a choice as to what they spend their money on, and what they install on their private property. They deserve it for willingly hiding pertinent information from the customer.

If you are sick of the treatment you get as a paying customer, start doing something about it, because your complaints fall on deaf ears here @ 2K. Time to shut the excuses up, or shut them down, do it with your reports, and wallet when it comes to future titles from them.

P.S. this information is directly related as to why one member (D33m0n) was banned, because he kept trying to get the word out. Ban me and everyone will see just how right I am. :cool:

[wildquinine]

Wow......searching online for more info on SecuROM and came across you guys. Read the thread and saw this:

Sims 2 - Bon Voyage has SecuROM on it. (until now EA games used SafeDisk, dunno why they changed but I'm guessing money) Entire Sims community is in uproar over it right now. CD/DVD drives being disabled, Sandisk's not reading, Nero being disabled, problems with camera and printers........the Sims community is filing complaints with the FTC as SecuROM is a SONY product and they should know better. They've tried this before and got slapped for installing programs on consumers computers without consent or knowledge.

It's getting seriously ugly in the sims world right now. :(

Thanks for posting this, it's interesting to see another angle of securom. I'll maybe have a look and see how things are doing in Sims world. It will also be interesting to see how/if EA respond.

(EA aren't exactly famous for customer service, so if they outdo 2K, then some of our 2K staff will seriously need to hang your heads in shame).

If you look at the posts in our forum you'll find that for most of us the major issue is the limited number of activations securom provides, and securom itself is just a bad taste left in our mouths.

We also have concerns about whether it is right to install it without notice, and leave it behind on a system after uninstallation.

Whilst some people claim to have technical problems caused by securom, these have not yet been widespread - although I'm sure they're VERY annoying for the people who do have them.

It's unfortunate that there seems to be more incidence of this with the Sims. Or perhaps it's a bigger issue for the Sims, because it's a primarily PC based experience.

At any rate - those in this forum that think that securom doesn't/can't cause problems by the simple fact of being here pay attention. Here is some more anecdotal evidence that it certainly can.

[Cornelius]

Elizabeth the revoke tool was announced over a month ago and reading the forums one might get the impression that the reason why it has taken so long is because 2K has had to build it from scratch. You have since said that the tool was developed by 2K and their activation which makes sense since you are using tools provided by SONY DADC that they advertise as requiring "no special programming by the developer".

http://sonydadc.com/file/securom.pdf

In the absence of any answers from your company we are left to draw on our own conclusions as to why the revoke tool has taken so long.

[redrain85]

I came across this article on Tom's Hardware by accident:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/DRM-Bioshock,review-29618.html

It's actually a month old, but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Once again, this article does not look too favorably upon SecuROM and the way 2K has been handling the situation.

[wildquinine]

Thanks for the link.

I came across this article on Tom's Hardware by accident:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/DRM-Bioshock,review-29618.html

It's actually a month old, but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Once again, this article does not look too favorably upon SecuROM and the way 2K has been handling the situation.

Actually, it looks about as favourably on the situation as it's possible to do so.

[tessieroo]

(EA aren't exactly famous for customer service, so if they outdo 2K, then some of our 2K staff will seriously need to hang your heads in shame).

If you look at the posts in our forum you'll find that for most of us the major issue is the limited number of activations securom provides, and securom itself is just a bad taste left in our mouths.

We also have concerns about whether it is right to install it without notice, and leave it behind on a system after uninstallation.

EA is scrambling right now (right hand doesn't have a clue what the left hand is doing) But they did the same things to those of us who had researched and found out as much about SecuROM as we could - they banned, they locked threads, they closed/deleted threads. It's been unreal. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it comes on a couple more EA games from what we've learned......it's included on "Command" and "Conquer 3" and they are both reporting major problems with SecuROM too. I guess the good news would be it's not just you guys? :(

I agree with you, PJ_dmsfrnd........the only way to make anyone notice it to file complaints as many of us have done. Since the FTC already has a settlement with Sony re/this issue.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070130-8738.html
I know everyone has said "but that's Sony BMG and SecuROM is Sony DACD." I don't care, my complaint with the FTC named both SONY and EA since as far as I'm concerned, they both violated their consumers computers and trust. :mad:

If you're interested (makes fun reading for awhile sorta, I'm very tired of it) : http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/start.php?openItemID=item.211,root.1,item.61,item. 104,item.41,item.127,item.23

(the above is the link to the Sims BBS forum and they have an entire topic just for SecuROM going right now. Not sure if you have to be registered to see it or not?) :rolleyes:

[z3razerviper]

When will companies learn copy protection DOES NOT WORK! Even the music companies are starting to see this. People don't like being treated like criminals. I said it many times if you make a good product at a reasonable price people will buy it. Sure you will have those people that will always steal it because they are punks but overall people will do the right thing if the price is fair and the product is good.

Now I know 2K Elizabeth said she had no details about the removal of the online activation but for me that is the most important thing. I want a commit date. Thats all I am asking for 6 months sounds fair to me.

Also why was securom put in the steam version? They the only effective/fair online software distribution system available and you polluted it with securom! I don't get it why would you do that.

[Sir_Toejam]

destop said:

"Do not buy PC games on launch day anymore. "

I'd stretch that out to say:

Don't buy PC games until the first patch is released.

but then, I pretty much make the same recommendation to all of my clients regarding ANY piece of software, including OS.

Never buy a MS OS until after the release of the first service pack, for example.

learned that from the release of NT 4.0 onwards.

It's remarkably rare that a piece of software works perfectly on initial release.

[Sir_Toejam]

... I would like to add that I completely disagree with destop's other point, though:

"... Or just go console, don't you know? No fuss, no problems, it's all about the game."

which as a former developer of PC games, i just have to say is so wrong it hurts.

-no mods
-no real patches
-no sdk

controls suck

no ability to upgrade individual hardware pieces to suit

personally, I have yet to see ANY console game that was actually better as a console game than an equivalent PC game.

consoles will be the death of good games, period, as they allow for too much control of the developers themselves by the producers of the consoles.

[Sir_Toejam]

Hey Destop, I understand the issues fully, dontcha know; we've been on the same page all the time as far as I can see. I just didn't want to spell it all out again.

But now that you've started... Bioshock's warnings should include:


maybe something along these lines....

Praline: Nevertheless, I must warn you that in future you should delete the words 'crunchy frog', and replace them with the legend 'crunchy raw unboned real dead frog', if you want to avoid prosecution.

Milton: What about our sales?

Praline: I'm not interested in your sales, I have to protect the general public. Now how about this one. (superintendent enters) It was number five, wasn't it? (superintendent nods) Number five, ram's bladder cup. (exit superintendent) What kind of confection is this?

Milton: We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a fondue and garnished with lark's vomit.

Praline: Lark's vomit?

Milton: Correct.

Praline: Well it don't say nothing about that here.

Milton: Oh yes it does, on the bottom of the box, after monosodium glutamate.

Praline: (looking) Well I hardly think this is good enough. I think it would be more appropriate if the box bore a large red label warning lark's vomit.

Milton: Our sales would plummet!

http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/crunchy.htm

[BloodRayne]

Facts:
- There is no warning about securom on the original packaging
- There is no prior warning when it installs it's rootkit like software
- The bioshock installation installs hidden software without prior knowledge of the computer owner.
- There is no easy way of uninstalling this hidden software
- 2k will not 'fix' this, but instead points to securom
- Securom does not respond to emails or written letters (trust me I've tried)
- My copy of Bioshock has atleast 4 of the 6 different 'crash' bugs, I have still not been able to play it.
- I paid more for a European copy (10$ more) than Americans do
- I've been 'screwed' on many levels, I now have a rootkit like piece of software on my PC, I have a game that does not work and all my criticism has fallen on deaf ears because my threads have been buried and ignored.
- Bioshock was cracked within 48 hours after it's release, this DRM hell has been brought upon legitimate customers for no reason at all.

Conclusion:
- I will not buy any 2k software anymore until they change their ways
- I will use all my 'networking' prowess to tell anybody I know *not* to buy any 2k software until they change their ways.
- I will use any online news and gaming site I have at my disposal (there are many) to bring this under the attention of 'the public'.

Now that the Bioshock hype is over it's top, people are opening up to criticism, a momentum that I will certainly use in order to affect a different kind of pressure on 2k to finally learn to listen to their customers and not use these kinds of DRM protection schemes.

[Silus]

I think you misunderstood me. (I read your posts in the last thread, too)
There was a reason why I put "right" in quotation marks, and I think my formulation at the end of my post regarding the locking of the old thread fits much better: "So, by the rules, she was in every right to lock the thread."
I don't think it was a good or the right thing to close the thread, but by the rules of this forum it was a given possibility to do so. I also said that deleting the "offending" posts would have been a better solution IMHO, because that >3000 posts thread simply shows how much the customers care about this issue. But: Let's just do another >3000 posts thread. ;)

But that was my point, by directing you to those posts I made in "the" thread.. The so called "rules" are different, depending on the stance of the person, on a specific matter. So "by the rules", 2K Elizabeth did nothing more, than continue to apply them as she sees fit and not exactly as they should to all of us. 2K fanboys always get away with it, just like I showed in those links (and those are just a few examples).

And yes, you're right. This thread is getting bigger every day and 3000 posts will not be far away :)

[Destop]

... I would like to add that I completely disagree with destop's other point, though:

"... Or just go console, don't you know? No fuss, no problems, it's all about the game."

which as a former developer of PC games, i just have to say is so wrong it hurts.

-no mods
-no real patches
-no sdk

controls suck

no ability to upgrade individual hardware pieces to suit

personally, I have yet to see ANY console game that was actually better as a console game than an equivalent PC game.

consoles will be the death of good games, period, as they allow for too much control of the developers themselves by the producers of the consoles.

Off-topic, response to Sir_Toejam

... maybe I was being sarcastic there, Sir_Toejam? =) It is merely the sad conclusion that at the moment, Bioshock PC is a less favourable item than Bioshock 360.

By the way, it doesn't hurt to shop around in both the PC and console domain. For one, console games work the way they are intended to from the word, "Go". No patches required, all the gameplay balancing and testing has been done beforehand. Sure beats the old game crash syndrome in excellent, but sloppily coded PC games. Also, looking at games as games, there are some fantastic console games out there which are just as entertaining as PC games. I'll name a few console titles which are nothing but gems as far as story, execution and gameplay are concerned: Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy (deciding which FF is the best is a debate in itself), Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy Tactics (separate mention as it's so good), Xenogears, Chrono series, Advance Wars, Castlevania, Metroid, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, GTA, Silent Hill, ... yes, some were ported to PC, but usually very badly. Not the game's fault. And it doesn't make the PC titles all of a sudden.

As for controls, practice makes perfect. If you're not willing to put in the time to learn control mappings to a few buttons then boohoo for you. That's not directed to you alone, though. For example, I've read countless reviews on Resident Evil complaining about its tank-like controls. Well, those moaners/reviewers are a bit... lacking, to use a politically correct term. Sure, I had to adapt to them, too, but after an hour, I could park my characters anywhere I wanted. Because I practiced. Ironically, reviewers lauded the "much-improved controls" in Resident Evil 4. That's funny to me, as they are exactly the same as always, except that the viewing perspective has changed. But, the buttons do the same thing they always did and you're still controlling a tank.

Plus, the current console gen isn't that different from PCs anymore. They're connected online, so you get updates, patches and extras. You can connect a keyboard and mouse to them (and run Linux on some) to have the controller input you're used to (if the game supports it).

You are entitled to your opinion concerning the above. I'm a person who looks at games as games, and adding the right console titles to the mix has been an enrichment in my games experience so far.

But yeah, just to make sure, in this case of Bioshock PC, I was being sarcastic.

[Destop]

... I would like to add that I completely disagree with destop's other point, though:

"... Or just go console, don't you know? No fuss, no problems, it's all about the game."

which as a former developer of PC games, i just have to say is so wrong it hurts.

-no mods
-no real patches
-no sdk

controls suck

no ability to upgrade individual hardware pieces to suit

personally, I have yet to see ANY console game that was actually better as a console game than an equivalent PC game.

consoles will be the death of good games, period, as they allow for too much control of the developers themselves by the producers of the consoles.

Off-topic, response to Sir_Toejam

... maybe I was being sarcastic there, Sir_Toejam? =) It is merely the sad conclusion that at the moment, Bioshock PC is a less favourable item than Bioshock 360.

By the way, it doesn't hurt to shop around in both the PC and console domain. For one, console games work the way they are intended to from the word, "Go". No patches required, all the gameplay balancing and testing has been done beforehand. Sure beats the old game crash syndrome in excellent, but sloppily coded PC games. Also, looking at games as games, there are some fantastic console games out there which are just as entertaining as PC games. I'll name a few console titles which are nothing but gems as far as story, execution and gameplay are concerned: Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy (deciding which FF is the best is a debate in itself), Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy Tactics (separate mention as it's so good), Xenogears, Chrono series, Advance Wars, Castlevania, Metroid, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, GTA, Silent Hill, ... yes, some were ported to PC, but usually very badly. Not the game's fault. And it doesn't make the PC titles all of a sudden.

As for controls, practice makes perfect. If you're not willing to put in the time to learn control mappings to a few buttons then boohoo for you. That's not directed to you alone, though. For example, I've read countless reviews on Resident Evil complaining about its tank-like controls. Well, those moaners/reviewers are a bit... lacking, to use a politically correct term. Sure, I had to adapt to them, too, but after an hour, I could park my characters anywhere I wanted. Because I practiced. Ironically, reviewers lauded the "much-improved controls" in Resident Evil 4. That's funny to me, as they are exactly the same as always, except that the viewing perspective has changed. But, the buttons do the same thing they always did and you're still controlling a tank.

Plus, the current console gen isn't that different from PCs anymore. They're connected online, so you get updates, patches and extras. You can connect a keyboard and mouse to them (and run Linux on some) to have the controller input you're used to (if the game supports it).

You are entitled to your opinion concerning the above. I'm a person who looks at games as games, and adding the right console titles to the mix has been an enrichment in my games experience so far.

But yeah, just to make sure, in this case of Bioshock PC, I was being sarcastic.

[Silus]

Off-topic, response to Sir_Toejam

... maybe I was being sarcastic there, Sir_Toejam? =) It is merely the sad conclusion that at the moment, Bioshock PC is a less favourable item than Bioshock 360.

And even though that's true, the Xbox 360 version, received an update, before the PC version. It's usually common practice to dedicate the most resources, to the version that has more problems (and I'm not even talking about the install limits crap). 2K on the other hand, continues its trend of obvious favoritism towards consoles, but insists on saying that "no version takes priority" as 2K Elizabeth often said. Laughable...

[Cornelius]

Still no answer on how the patch will be delivered. I would ask a beta tester but they are under a NDA. If you (2K) use SecuROM to deliver the patch (and why not you already use it to download the bioshock.exe during activation) then you may want to update the FAQ since because it says SecuROM’s (and the data it collects) only purpose is for comparing future activations on a particular serial. Nothing about patching or about how often SecuROM contacts the server (which is relevant to patching the game and keeping SecuROM updated).

The FAQ also suggests that data regarding you customer's system configuration (machine ID) is not collected in aggregate and used in marketing and development. Now there is nothing inherently wrong with using this data in that way (and you have already collected it) but if you are then you should come clean about or risk making SecuROM look like spyware which is an odd way to treat your activation partner.

Elizabeth does SONY DADC provide you (2K or anyone else) with access (or deliver) data collected in aggregate about your customer’s system configurations?

[darious]

I just flew back from my ban and boy are my arms tired. <rimshot>


If you are sick of the treatment you get as a paying customer, start doing something about it, because your complaints fall on deaf ears here @ 2K. Time to shut the excuses up, or shut them down, do it with your reports, and wallet when it comes to future titles from them.

P.S. this information is directly related as to why one member (D33m0n) was banned, because he kept trying to get the word out. Ban me and everyone will see just how right I am. :cool:

Thanks for reminding me of this option. It had sunk out of sight and mind on the previous thread.

Since I wasn't allowed to post here I instead took the time to file my own FTC complaint.

The website is here: https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq$.startup

Several fields don't directly apply to this situation but fill it out as best you can.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[darious]

When you buy software, you don't really buy it, otherwise you'd be buying the source code along with it.

You just buy the right (or license) to use it freely.


I don't know about that. When I buy a car I'm not necessarily buying the entire production line but I should be allowed to install a different car radio if I want.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[trexmaster]

When you buy software, you don't really buy it, otherwise you'd be buying the source code along with it.

You just buy the right (or license) to use it freely.


Yep certainly. But I don't pay for being ... annoyed (to stay polite) with pieces of software I don't want on my computer without my express aproval.

So it's not exactly illegal (though I'm not sure) but it sure as hell is a pretty bad decision by 2K Games and Sony should be slapped in the face for ever developing SecuROM in the first place.

Yes, it is illegal, at least in my country, to install some software on a computer without its administrator being given a choice about it, and without providing a way to remove it. That's called piracy too, and the penalties for that are even worse than those for copying software :)

Even worse, in my country it's illegal to collect data on someone or someone's private property without telling them.

Sadly, Sony has been known for quite a while now for its intrusive DRMs (be it for music, videos or videogames). This company has lost a few trials (search for "sony rootkit" if you want) but it seems they haven't learned yet. Unfortunately, people like me, who live in a country where class actions don't exist and don't want to play David against Goliath once again, can just vote with their money. So I'm keeping mine and I'm not giving it again to 2K, Take 2, and any other companies related to those 2.

[trexmaster]

Oh yes ! And even though I doubt this thread get to the same length the other one did I do believe it'll be the second longest thread of this board, just behind the first one.

I'm sure because I really care about that.

[Flatline]

Question: What files should you look for when scanning your drive to locate securom files I would like to take a screenshot of them and join my friends in Mich on filing a federal claim?

[Silus]

Oh yes ! And even though I doubt this thread get to the same length the other one did I do believe it'll be the second longest thread of this board, just behind the first one.

I'm sure because I really care about that.

Either way, it's going to be closed soon. Don't you remember ? This is an "older issue"...There's no need to be bothered with "older issues"...

[trexmaster]

Either way, it's going to be closed soon. Don't you remember ? This is an "older issue"...There's no need to be bothered with "older issues"...

I don't see any "older issue" here. Fact is, there are people, like me, who do care about privacy and control of their computer. These generally are people that act as some kind of "technical referee" for other people. As such my opinion on technical products does have some importance, as I am in a position to convince a good hundred different people (most directly, others indirectly) that this kind of excessive DRM is Evil, and trying to hide information (by closing threads) about it is even more Evil.

So no, I don't think this is an "older issue".

PS : I'm well aware that your post was ironic, I delibarately chose to take it seriously.

[darious]

I came across this article on Tom's Hardware by accident:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/DRM-Bioshock,review-29618.html

It's actually a month old, but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Once again, this article does not look too favorably upon SecuROM and the way 2K has been handling the situation.

Good article. It even broached the subject that piracy is not a 1 for 1 cost to the publisher, ie. a certain of percentage of downloaders wouldn't have bought the game even if they couldn't have scammed it for free in the first place.

Just what that percentage would be... that would be an interesting study to read. If anyone has any links to research along these lines I'd be grateful.

Two other comments stuck out from the tomshardware article.

"A cynical person might say that 2K deliberately left Bioshock’s DRM system very, very tight so that when they “loosened” it to a tight system, we’d think that 5 by 5 is a much better proposition."

It sounds a bit conspiracy theorist but this is becoming an increasingly used tactic when pushing any new type of security boundary.

"...gamers began to bemoan the Starforce drivers and the ill-effects it had on their machines. Starforce was said to employ some rather dirty tactics of dissuasion against these people..."

I suspect that somewhere in the increasingly burdensome forum rules there is something preventing me from saying something about this... so... no comment.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[Cornelius]

And even though that's true, the Xbox 360 version, received an update, before the PC version. It's usually common practice to dedicate the most resources, to the version that has more problems (and I'm not even talking about the install limits crap). 2K on the other hand, continues its trend of obvious favoritism towards consoles, but insists on saying that "no version takes priority" as 2K Elizabeth often said. Laughable...

With the XBOX they (2K) are dealing with Microsoft as a customer (as opposed to PC gamers as consumers) and sales on the XBOX (consoles in general) earn 2K far more than PC sales. This is also reflected in Take Two's own public statements regarding their current and future title development which lists a lot of console titles (Microsoft, SONY, and Nintendo) and not so many PC games.

It is not that 2K or Microsoft does not care about PC gamers they are just following the money (and shepherding people with their money). So when you hear someone say something like "no version takes priority" you can look at the facts and consider the technical and economic reasons for giving XBOX titles priority for patching and draw your own conclusions.

[matches81]

I came across this article on Tom's Hardware by accident:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/DRM-Bioshock,review-29618.html

It's actually a month old, but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Once again, this article does not look too favorably upon SecuROM and the way 2K has been handling the situation.

One important thing is missing in this article for me: It doesn't mention that nearly every copy protection is cracked within a few days after release and the companies somehow miss that point, too. How can they miss that the onlyeffects of their copy protections are
a) the game gets pirated after a few days after release and everybody who wants to pirate it just waits those few days
b) customers get pissed
How narrow-minded do you have to be to implement a more draconian copy protection system every turn, failing every time? That crappy game has been played for quite some years. Astonishing nothing's changing and the companies charge on to even more intrusive copy protections and expand those practises to CDs, HD-DVDs and probably other stuff in the future. It's a shame.

[darious]

I believe that the thinking has less to do with stopping piracy than stalling pirates long enough until enough copies get purchased that the company meets or exceeds the break even point.

My opinion on that theory is that screwurom just made it that much less likely that Take-Two and 2K games will hit profitability on any subsequent games they put out.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[AlexiR]

Off topic
It was never about stopping piracy the fact that the thing was cracked in 5 days or less proves that.
What it has always been about was who has control of the media.
In this case the company reselling or giving this game to a relative/friend is going to be a headache as it for other drm'd media.

On Topic.
I bought this game via preorder (more fool me) discovered my top of the line ATI (now midranged) wouldn't run it because of the pixel 2.0 thing, and i lurked in that thread while the fan made patch was going on and then i drifted over here to lurk.
Its a shame the only way such things like these will change is when the companies feel the pinch of the consumer base backlash and its equally a shame that the general public has such a short memory, mainly if things go bad(a pr nightmare) the activation via securom will probably be dropped but there is no guarantee the next 2k "blockbuster" won't have us jumping through hoops again after all , all that has to be done is to stage a media blitz hype with ads and previews appearing in every gamer magazine/site and most people will forget the unfortunate securom incident.

[redrain85]

Here's another article from Ars Technica that is somewhat relevant to the discussion:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071009-record-label-defections-by-major-acts-a-troubling-sign-for-recording-industry.html

I like these quotes from the article:
"Want radio? No problem. Click play, get radio. Want video? Awesome. Click play, get video. Want a track on-demand? Oh have we got a deal for you! If you're on Windows XP or Vista, and you're in North America, just download this 20MB application, go through these seven install screens, reboot your computer, go through these five setup screens, these six credit card screens, give us $160 dollars and POW! Now you can hear that song you wanted to hear—if you're still with us," writes Rogers.

It's a slippery slope from 'a little control' to consumer unfriendliness

The tide is really turning against DRM in music, I think. When is the game industry going to get the same message?

[darious]

Here's another article from Ars Technica that is somewhat relevant to the discussion:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071009-record-label-defections-by-major-acts-a-troubling-sign-for-recording-industry.html



Ahh... you beat me to it. If I wasn't so busy picking my own price and buying Radiohead's latest DRM free album, I'da gotten to this first.

[darious]

edit: smiley at the end of that last post. :)


-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy a 2K Game: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy a 2K Game: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[miasma]

Ahh... you beat me to it. If I wasn't so busy picking my own price and buying Radiohead's latest DRM free album, I'da gotten to this first.

good reminder, I was forgetting about that.

2K's Bioshock = laughing stock

[darious]

And they can thank 2K games for the extra dollars I paid in gratitude for their lack of DRM.

What? I need to spend my discretionary dollars somewhere and it's certainly not going towards anything 2K games puts out.

:p

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[trexmaster]

Ahh... you beat me to it. If I wasn't so busy picking my own price and buying Radiohead's latest DRM free album, I'da gotten to this first.

I had completely forgotten that ! Now I know where I can spend the 50 euros I didn't spend on Bioshock ! They (Radiohead) have a collector version for about the same price if I remember correctly. And it doesn't have any stupid DRM ! :D
(All that coming from someone who haven't bought a single CD since 8 years ago).

Lesson for 2K (and other DRM addict companies) :
- DRM (which doesn't prevent piracy) = unhappy customers = less sales in the end + mistrust in future products + free bad advertisement
- no DRM = happy customers = more sales + trust + free good advertisement

[z3razerviper]

Lesson for 2K (and other DRM addict companies) :
- DRM (which doesn't prevent piracy) = unhappy customers = less sales in the end + mistrust in future products + free bad advertisement
- no DRM = happy customers = more sales + trust + free good advertisement

Oh yes I remember working NonDRM math back in school. I think it came after Calc.... I almost flunked it but when I realized the answer was always dont punish your customers all the tests became super easy. If I remember correctly someone named 2k dropped the class....but I could be wrong.

[japester]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.

2) It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks. It's the same with copy protection. The only way to make it better is to put it out there, let the code-kiddies smack away at it till it breaks, then look at the cracked code and figure out how to improve it for next time.

And the person who said it was cracked in five days is wrong. It took them nine full days of furious coding to break it. Seeing as how most games are usually cracked in 24 hours, that is an 800% increase in effectiveness. I'd call that a step in the right direction. ;)

(You might be confused because incomplete copies were being torrented prior to that along with full copies that couldn't be activated because SecuROM itself hadn't been hacked yet.)

We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more. And its a crying shame. So until we learn to police each other, expect security measures to get tighter and tighter. Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.

The day they remove copy protection from all games is the day they remove those speed bumps from every quarter mile of road in the US...... :cool:

[z3razerviper]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.

2) It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks. It's the same with copy protection. The only way to make it better is to put it out there, let the code-kiddies smack away at it till it breaks, then look at the cracked code and figure out how to improve it for next time.

And the person who said it was cracked in five days is wrong. It took them nine full days of furious coding to break it. Seeing as how most games are usually cracked in 24 hours, that is an 800% increase in effectiveness. I'd call that a step in the right direction. ;)

(You might be confused because incomplete copies were being torrented prior to that along with full copies that couldn't be activated because SecuROM itself hadn't been hacked yet.)

We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more. And its a crying shame. So until we learn to police each other, expect security measures to get tighter and tighter. Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.

The day they remove copy protection from all games is the day they remove those speed bumps from every quarter mile of road in the US...... :cool:

Jasper actually I am a system software engineer and the issue here is a matter of philosophy. I don’t agree with the Draconian DRM included in Bioshock. My main concern is the whole online activation and the lack of an uninstall program for securom. Yes I know I can do it manually but the point is I should not have to and online activation just annoys the living daylights out of me. For example my windows copy has disabled itself 5 times in the last year because Microsoft made a mistake. My copy came from my MSDN account so it could not get more legal. Sony has proven many times that they can’t be trusted. So I will not give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. My PC is not theirs to do with as they please its MINE. Software has been shipping for years without DRM and companies still made lots of money. Yes you had pirates and I admit they are punks but they wont buy the product no matter how good the price is they just love the challenge of stealing it. So the money lost is not money the developer was ever really going to see. Punishing the real customer does nothing but make people mad so they wont buy your product any more. Look at the music industry their sales are slipping because the price is too high and the product released over the last 5 to 10 years are total crap. You can call us "freedom fighters" if you want but we don’t like being treated like criminals when we did the “right thing” and spent our hard earned cash on these games.

[japester]

Look at the music industry their sales are slipping because the price is too high and the product released over the last 5 to 10 years are total crap.

See, it's those kind of statements that make me completely dismiss an argument. Prices are "too high"? The quality is "total crap"? How much more arbitrary can you get? I could walk into your place of business, tell you your work is crap and you charge too much for it, and swipe your programs and I'd be in the right? No.....that just doesn't fly in any sensible way.

Casual online theft is killing the music industry. And it will happen to the software industry is well. Sure software has been shipping for years, but piracy has gotten easier and less stigmatic (if it ever was in the first place). Almost anybody can go to a torrent site and figure it out. It takes almost no technical knowledge. That wasn't the case years ago.

What this is all coming down to is two identical stores on every streetcorner, one charging for items and one giving them away for free. And people in this thread are assuming that that as long as the prices are "fair" and the quality is "good", all the good people will do the right thing and pay for their goods and will ignore the folks streaming into the freebie store. That's not human nature. Never was. Never will be. You have to punish people to get them to tow the line. Society is built on that (as much as we kid ourselves otherwise). SecuROM punishes those who install frequently. Most of the people complaining about that will probably never hit their install limits--they are in an uproar over the possibility they may hit that limit. I don't consider that "draconian". Especially since getting more added to your limit is free. I guarantee you that future iterations will be able to target pirates more accurately and less obtrusively. And more power to them if it keeps developers confident enough to sink more years of their lives into making good games for me.

[yogibbear]

I completely disagree with about 92% of what you said japester.

your example of a structural engineer testing something till it breaks is just lame. Yes they do that. But they don't go build the entire bridge and then put a few thousands trucks on it and see how long before it goes snap? They test small models and scaled bits separately in a lab and then put tensile and compressive loads on them to see how much they can take. Otherwise they'd lose millions of dollars.

So apply this example to 2k. Wow. they built the bridge and stressed it to it's maximum tensile stress and what do you know? Securom and Limited Activations broke their bridge. And now 2k are going to lose millions of dollars. (i know i'm exaggerating and yes they're not losing money, just customers support, and future purchases)

Well not really. But following your advice they would. They should not test securom on us like this. Surely it could be done on a small sample of individuals. And then they'd know how much PC users hate being treated like this. Limited activations... what the hell? Who's dumb idea was this?!

Hopefully you're taking this as constructive criticism as that's what i'm trying to do...

Anyhow the "millions of dollars lost on their bridge" = "we want unlimited activations" + "a securom uninstall tool" (so that when we uninstall bioshock it fully uninstalls securom).

[trexmaster]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.


I'm not dismissing SecuROM simply because it is ineffective, I'm dismissing it because :
- it's installed without warning
- it's installed without letting me chose whether or not I want it
- it's damn too hard to remove
- it collects data on my computer without telling me which ones and letting me verify that it only collects what it says it collects
- in the end, it doesn't prevent piracy anyway

Those points make me say that this copy protection scheme is a threat to my computer's security and a blatant denial of my most basic right to know and keep control of what gets into my private property (which my computer is). So, as a customer, I feel like I'm being cheated upon.



2) It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks. It's the same with copy protection. The only way to make it better is to put it out there, let the code-kiddies smack away at it till it breaks, then look at the cracked code and figure out how to improve it for next time.

And the person who said it was cracked in five days is wrong. It took them nine full days of furious coding to break it. Seeing as how most games are usually cracked in 24 hours, that is an 800% increase in effectiveness. I'd call that a step in the right direction. ;)

(You might be confused because incomplete copies were being torrented prior to that along with full copies that couldn't be activated because SecuROM itself hadn't been hacked yet.)

I've sayed it before, but that was in the original thread so I'll repeat : I am a software engineer. Even though I don't work in games (I'm working for a bank, another kind of robbers :D ), I understand very well how hard and painfull it is to develop quality software, and I understand that developpers and publishers need to protect their investment. But the point is that when the protections you put around your product (whatever it is) start limiting how many times your customer can legitimately use it, I say that your going too far for me.

I'm going to take a delibarately overly exagerated example : imagine if car companies started selling cars that would only start a limited amount of times or if you had bought a house which you could only enter 5 times ? Pretty stupid isn't it ? Do you really think customers would accept that and continue buying cars and houses ? No. They'd start boycotting those companies. And that's exactly what I'm going to do with 2K and Take Two games.


We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more. And its a crying shame. So until we learn to police each other, expect security measures to get tighter and tighter. Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.

The day they remove copy protection from all games is the day they remove those speed bumps from every quarter mile of road in the US...... :cool:

The average Joe is a complete moron and *******, I completely agree on that. But I believe that what we've proven as a society is that we don't have the guts to kick Joe in the balls when he's suspected of doing wrong. Instead we prefer to kick the honest Mike in the balls. Someday Mike's gonna be really angry.

[trexmaster]

Oh, yeah ! Once again, could a mod or 2K Elizabeth make this a sticky again ?

Please ?

[BloodRayne]

*sigh*
We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone.

What nonsense, this is just not true. There are many examples where developers choose to create advantages for buying customers instead of trying to punish non-buying customers.

How good can a business model be when you invest time and money into the part of the public thats *NOT* buying your product? The focus is just all wrong, luckilly more and more developers are learning to see it that way.

[Silus]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

...



Let me fill you on some blanks, that you usually conveniently forget...

1) There is no mention of install limits in the box or EULA.

2) After install limits were found (not because 2K advertised them), 2K said that if people unistalled the game, you would get a credit back. Which was a BLATANT LIE. And they insisted on it for quite some time.

3) They made vague promises of a so called "revoke tool", which made some people buy the game. Now those people are found complaining in these forums, for the very same reason, they bought the game.

I find it hard to believe that there are those that support these measures. I don't know exactly what you have to gain with this. by supporting lies and deceit.

No one is against copy protection, but there are limits to it and 2K crossed the line big time, especially by not disclosing important info and also because they lied about it. There's no trust to be gained, with lies and so 2K deserves all the bad press and lawsuits they get.

[matches81]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.

The thing is: It's not even close to 100%. It's closer to 0%.
Anybody with a bit of experience in games simply knows that it's a matter of days until a new release is cracked. I'd say someone who downloads a cracked release close to release date doesn't care whether it takes 2 days until the crack is out or 20. He's not going to buy the game in either case. Perhaps, if the copy protection stays alive long enough (let's say 6 weeks as an example), he might lose his patience and buy it, but if I had to take a guess, those cases are less than 10% of the pirates.


2) It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks. It's the same with copy protection. The only way to make it better is to put it out there, let the code-kiddies smack away at it till it breaks, then look at the cracked code and figure out how to improve it for next time.

The structural engineer doesn't infringe other peoples' rights while testing his own design. Just because of that your analogy doesn't work. But if you're willing to pay 50$ for a game and then play guinea pig for another generation of hilarious copy protections that display a blatant disregard for the customer's rights, you're welcome to do so.


And the person who said it was cracked in five days is wrong. It took them nine full days of furious coding to break it. Seeing as how most games are usually cracked in 24 hours, that is an 800% increase in effectiveness. I'd call that a step in the right direction. ;)

Those 800% are wrong. At least, IMHO. Let's be generous and say that 10% of the pirates didn't pirate the game because they couldn't stand waiting another week. Then the efficiency increased by 10%. And to achieve that 2K broke several laws and pissed off many customers. Brilliant! That's a step in the right direction, indeed! ;)


We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more. And its a crying shame. So until we learn to police each other, expect security measures to get tighter and tighter. Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.

The day they remove copy protection from all games is the day they remove those speed bumps from every quarter mile of road in the US...... :cool:
At least I don't expect zero copy protection. But it should be in the boundaries that are set by consumers' rights and other laws. You're view on the society is pretty dark. I consider myself to be cynic, but even I admit that there are many people that try to do the right thing. But, how can a publisher that doesn't respect its customers expect the customer to respect that publisher?
With your view of society, how do you explain that although almost every game is available for download and still lots of people are buying games?


Casual online theft is killing the music industry. And it will happen to the software industry is well.

Uh-huh? Interesting. And there I was actually thinking that the music industry is constantly growing and the games industry is actually growing faster than any other industry has ever done before, surpassing both movie and music industry. It's a shame they're dying.

Your analogy with the "two identical stores" is pointless:
You give people the choice to pay for a product or not, without the free version being illegal. Simply put: You're neglecting the main aspect of piracy.
Of course people will take the free version of a product, perhaps they donate something out of good will. If the free version is legal, they would be pretty damn stupid to pay the full price for it. That has nothing to do with the topic, because piracy is illegal, regardless of the copy protection in place.


There simply is no way of exactly determining the efficiency of a copy protection. If a protection scheme is cracked early, that doesn't mean necessarily that the game won't sell. On the other hand, if a game doesn't sell and the copy protection was cracked early that doesn't mean it would've sold much better if the copy protection actually worked. Perhaps the game just didn't make that much of an impression on the customers to make them pay 50$ and get pissed off due to bugs and a copy protection they don't know about yet. The trust of consumers towards the publishers is diminishing rapidly due to buggy releases and copy protections like the one in Bioshock. Publishers undertake a lot to actually make their product less usable than the pirated equivalent. That and the loss of trust probably does more harm to the publishers than piracy itself.

[ddave]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

Is this the same japester who, having made a practical suggestion for how activation might be removed, which found a lot of agreement, said

I much prefer it when we can come up with reasonable solutions that make everybody happy. Honestly, I don't think anybody associated with the game or posters like myself really want anybody to be unhappy with BioShock. That's just silly.

So common ground is a very, very good thing. :)

(The Big Thread, post 3116)

?

The rest of that post went on to say more or less what has been repeated here. In that sense the common ground hasn't got any more common, which is of course fine because everyone is entitled to reject others' arguments. But there should be a reason for such rejection otherwise there is no point in having any discussion ever. Now japester has shifted the argument to be about whether there should be any copy protection at all, which is a straw target, and has ignored the specific points which were made there against limited activation. Hence some of them have had to be repeated here, and there were others after post 3116 which have also been brushed aside.

Why?

This shift of argument and lack of reasoned response can only *prevent* the finding of common ground. A shame.

[Ric]

See, it's those kind of statements that make me completely dismiss an argument. Prices are "too high"? The quality is "total crap"? How much more arbitrary can you get? I could walk into your place of business, tell you your work is crap and you charge too much for it, and swipe your programs and I'd be in the right? No.....that just doesn't fly in any sensible way.

Casual online theft is killing the music industry. And it will happen to the software industry is well. Sure software has been shipping for years, but piracy has gotten easier and less stigmatic (if it ever was in the first place). Almost anybody can go to a torrent site and figure it out. It takes almost no technical knowledge. That wasn't the case years ago.

What this is all coming down to is two identical stores on every streetcorner, one charging for items and one giving them away for free. And people in this thread are assuming that that as long as the prices are "fair" and the quality is "good", all the good people will do the right thing and pay for their goods and will ignore the folks streaming into the freebie store. That's not human nature. Never was. Never will be. You have to punish people to get them to tow the line. Society is built on that (as much as we kid ourselves otherwise). SecuROM punishes those who install frequently. Most of the people complaining about that will probably never hit their install limits--they are in an uproar over the possibility they may hit that limit. I don't consider that "draconian". Especially since getting more added to your limit is free. I guarantee you that future iterations will be able to target pirates more accurately and less obtrusively. And more power to them if it keeps developers confident enough to sink more years of their lives into making good games for me.


That's a lot of guff there. I will definitely hit my install limit, no doubt about it. I regularly clean down my system and re-install all of my software -- I'll say that again: my system and my software. Because of 2K's implementation of DRM I will soon not be able to use a product I payed full price for; I have in effect rented it and an exorbitant rate. £30 pounds for roughly two months.

Explain to me, Japester, why Ishould be punished for my use of my system and my software? You state that pirates should be punished, well I'm not a pirate so why do I have to suffer this policy -- a policy which no pirate will even notice let alone be subjected to?

[Pikey Joe]

We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more.

Actually, I agree.

Putting stuff up for free download and relying on donations is all very well for bands producing popular music, but I'm not sure how well that would work for big budget PC games. There is a big fan culture in the music business that doesn't exist in the computer games industry (at least not to the same extent) - people do not love software developers in the same way as they love their favourite music idols. And even if they did, it's unlikely they'd love them enough to pay 50 bucks every time they saw a game they fancied.

I don't have a problem with copy protection; I have a problem with this copy protection.

The big software publishers should take a step back and look at the direction they are taking with all this DRM crap. What the hell is wrong with a little honestly? What are they all afraid of? Why doesn't the back of the box read:
"This software requires the SecuROM copy protection system to be installed on your computer. For more information visit http://www.ScrewYouRom.com".
Open. Honest. Legal. This may have discouraged some buyers, but probably far fewer than have been discouraged by the row that has since developed.

Of course, if the label had read " you may only install this game twice before it becomes a coaster", then nobody would bought it at all, and this is probably the reason 2K chose to sneak SecuROM on to the user's PC secretly (and the person responsible for that stupid decision deserves to be hit in the face with a brick).

Oh yeah, I forgot - I've stopped visiting this forum.

[darious]

Casual online theft is killing the music industry.

Ah yes. For Apple is doing so horribly in the changing marketplace.

Blaming piracy for No more than Japanese imports killed the American automotive industry in the 70's. Years of exaggerated prices, a lack of innovation, failure to adapt to new technologies, and an attitude of taking the customer for granted is what really killed 'em. Japanese imports and online piracy was just the scapegoat for when the inevitable market correction came.

The music industry is not getting killed. They are getting rid of the bloat that they accumulated over the past decade of unsustainable pricing.

Basic economics 101. You charge too much for your product and you will lose customers to someone who won't. You make your customers unhappy with policies and restrictions and they will buy from someone else.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[mhonzell]

You can’t suggest a body to rate copy protection and decide what’s kosher and what’s not, as it will inevitably end up siding with whichever party holds more sway (hey, Gamer for President 2008). You can’t pretend that video game publishers shouldn’t be able to protect their investments, or that human nature can be put aside to stop the pirates – most of whom are Joe Soaps with BitTorrent or a MegaUpload account. What you have to do is battle and rile every time a game comes out with something silly like Bioshock’s limited install system. It’s not ideal and it’s not nice, but that’s the world we’ve come to inhabit.
Original article: Tom's Hardware Article (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/DRM-Bioshock,review-29618-3.html)

Okay, I've learned to live with copy protection schemes. You have to treat them as a virus that you intentionally install. I understand their goal is to allow the vendor to make a profit before the hackers make the program free to all. (Newsflash: It was hacked and downloadable as a full iso before it was released to the public and without securom.)

I pay for my programs and am tired of being in the middle of the fight and worrying that my real work will always be in jeopardy from these protection schemes. I couldn't care less about the number of activations. When I'm done, I throw the game away.

Likewise, I expect that a method be provided to remove the installed garbage legitimately when I'm done using the program or when I find that it is truely incompatible with my system. I shouldn't have to restore a backup of my system to remove your program.

I had nothing but problems installing this game and received the proverbial runaround between 2K and SecurROM to fix the problem since neither appeared responsible for the other's product. After several attempts to activate over a period of about one hour, my serial number was "blacklisted" because while it wasn't activating locally, it was activating on the server. This put me into the "Manual Activation" method requiring several more phone calls and e-mails. In the end, my game simply started working without ever "activating" while being "blacklisted." When I told 2K about this "problem," they seemed content and responded, "It does that sometimes." SecuROM simply never responded. So much for SecuROM protection schemes.

As with all games of this nature, it's hot for the moment. Tomorrow, you're old news. We move on. The question is: Was I impressed enough to buy your next product? No. While the game was "good", the only thing I seem to really remember after playing some other game is all the trouble I had installing and uninstalling this game. Like so many others, I've put it where it belongs.

[darious]

<kirk>So.. many.. typos.. must.. FIND.. edit.. button! </kirk>

And once again I find my thoughts far more eloquently expressed elsewhere.

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/theluddite/2007/10/luddite_1011

"The usurious nature of the business is the main reason that the average CD, which at most costs a couple of bucks to produce, routinely sells for upwards of $20. Sometimes the songwriter makes out all right (forget about the singer or the musicians), but licensing and contracts have been sufficiently rigged by the boys in legal to ensure that the lion's share of the carcass goes to people who have absolutely nothing to do with the actual music."



And yes, I do equate the mafiaa's "Sue the customer's" campaign to 2K's "screw(urom) the customers" decision.



-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown[/QUOTE]

[the-middleman]

@topic: If bioshock should ever be released without this kind of protection im going to buy it.

[toto952]

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.
DRM do not work against P2P piracy and people sharing those cracked copy. Efficiency is 0% for this matter.
However DRM is very efficient against the so-called "casual piracy", which is actually people lending heir own copy to friends after having beaten the game and the second hand market. Please note that this is only in the twisted minds of publishers that this is called piracy.

It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks.
I am indeed a software engineering guy. But this about business, not really engineering. A DRM system is doomed to failed because it is cryptographically impossible to do.
Now from a pratical point of view, it can buy some time but:
- the time bought is usually ridiculously low (waouhh, 9 days! not counting that in Europe the game was released several days after the US)
- I bet the protection worked "so long" not because it was that good but 1) because it was new (the activation part) and 2) because "pirates/fixers" didn't have the whole software on d-day (while I understood that for most other games, the binairies are leaked at the manufacturing or retail level). The same "robustness" could have been achieved with much less obtrusive techniques, and activation would have been in no way necessary.

But let's see the problem from a marketing point of view. Regarding the "put enough stress until it breaks", that's exactly what publishers try to do with DRM: put enough stress until the consumer breaks. The problem is that, contrary to hard science, when the consumer breaks, it is very hard to start again.

We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth,
Indeed. "Trust us, we will release soon a revoke application, and sometimes in the future, will remove the activation. Also trust us, there is not rootkit in our completely safe product".

Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.
If games are becoming increasingly difficult to use, if the fear of corporate "viruses" and volatile activation server overwhelm the enjoyment of the product, publishers shouldn't expect my money and that I shut my mouth. It just ain't gonna work that way either.

[trexmaster]

You ought to acknowledge that Japester has a knack at inducing interesting posts in response to his own.

And once again, why is this not made a sticky ?

[Silus]

You ought to acknowledge that Japester has a knack at inducing interesting posts in response to his own.

And once again, why is this not made a sticky ?

I told you why before. It's an "older issue" for 2K.
We've been talking to the hand, ever since the game was released. In fact, I'm here even before the game was released, at the time of the PC demo debacle and their stance is no different today.

[BloodRayne]

I told you why before. It's an "older issue" for 2K.
We've been talking to the hand, ever since the game was released. In fact, I'm here even before the game was released, at the time of the PC demo debacle and their stance is no different today.

I've been here since before the demo and I can attest to that.

[wilk0r]

How many different threads are you guys going to make me post in? Would you prefer something tangible like a letter? A gorilla-gram perhaps? Sky-writing..?

[trexmaster]

How many different threads are you guys going to make me post in? Would you prefer something tangible like a letter? A gorilla-gram perhaps? Sky-writing..?

Get your **** together, this is infantile.

Err ... I'm not sure but ... are you talking to 2K ?

[beacon99]

How many different threads are you guys going to make me post in? Would you prefer something tangible like a letter? A gorilla-gram perhaps? Sky-writing..?

Get your **** together, this is infantile.

I cannot agree more. The original thread, viewed 300,000+ times was shut down because 1 or 2 people were fighting on page 300+. How that invalidates the previous 290 some pages is beyond me.

Additionally, a 23 page thread, that pre-dated this one was shut down, and folks corralled into this smaller pen.

Now, should anyone (and remember, something like well over 50% of allll posts in these forums touch upon Securom) or two people violate rules, the entire topic will be closed.

Pardon me if I see this as a blatant attempt at an eventual sweeping under the rug.

Whatever...done posting on these forums. Bought and paid for the game (fabulous product, as I've said before) before I knew about the draconian copy protect. I will buy inferior games from inferior companies before I patronize 2K again. I am far from alone. If they honestly believe the number of pirates thwarted in the first 6 days the DRM worked is greater than the number of paying customers who are infuriated, it shows how blissfully ignorant they wish to remain.

[Cornelius]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

I think that about sums it up.

Anyway the fight is not between the content providers and consumers but between companies like Universal who is currently selling DRM-free music to anyone (like Yahoo) in the hopes of breaking Apple's control over the market (and prices) of online music.

In other news a SONY BMG lawyer supposes that copying CD you own to an Ipod is “stealing” but that is just a distraction too.

[z3razerviper]

See, it's those kind of statements that make me completely dismiss an argument. Prices are "too high"? The quality is "total crap"? How much more arbitrary can you get? I could walk into your place of business, tell you your work is crap and you charge too much for it, and swipe your programs and I'd be in the right? No.....that just doesn't fly in any sensible way.

Casual online theft is killing the music industry. And it will happen to the software industry is well. Sure software has been shipping for years, but piracy has gotten easier and less stigmatic (if it ever was in the first place). Almost anybody can go to a torrent site and figure it out. It takes almost no technical knowledge. That wasn't the case years ago.

What this is all coming down to is two identical stores on every streetcorner, one charging for items and one giving them away for free. And people in this thread are assuming that that as long as the prices are "fair" and the quality is "good", all the good people will do the right thing and pay for their goods and will ignore the folks streaming into the freebie store. That's not human nature. Never was. Never will be. You have to punish people to get them to tow the line. Society is built on that (as much as we kid ourselves otherwise). SecuROM punishes those who install frequently. Most of the people complaining about that will probably never hit their install limits--they are in an uproar over the possibility they may hit that limit. I don't consider that "draconian". Especially since getting more added to your limit is free. I guarantee you that future iterations will be able to target pirates more accurately and less obtrusively. And more power to them if it keeps developers confident enough to sink more years of their lives into making good games for me.


Casual online theft is NOT killing the music industry. The music industry's business practices are doing that and in effect causing online priacy because they are relasing bad products at prices that are to high. Dont take that as me saying I aggree these people that are stealing I am just saying its one of the main causes of it.

As far as the store arguement goes. I NEVER stated if you disaggree with prices/quality that it gives anyone the right to steal a product but the store owner does not have the right to put restrictions on the products use without notifying the customer either. Nor does the store owner have the right to say I have to keep something else in my house forever even after I get rid of the product.

[hackaxle]

Regarding Destop's post: yes, sound advice on seeing how the land lies with future PC releases. I'll never be there on release day again no matter who developed it.

But if this becomes the norm...I cannot get on with console controllers (though I've tried) so that will be the end of gaming for me after more years than I'd like to think about.

Funnily enough, after all this I can't say I'm too bothered about the prospect right now. Too nasty a taste.

Outstanding, 2K.

Dude I totally feel you, my friends are all addicted to Halo 3 and I have a Wii. I just can't do the controller thing you can't aim and it's too slow. When they see me playing an Unreal match they think thats some sick action, but they still think they'd beat me if halo 3 was on PC and I could play against their consoles online, that is my dream BTW PC2Console™ online gaming.

I can't even get the game to work. I've updated my graphics card drivers and my Directx. I get no mouse cursor. It's very difficult to even start playing, because without seeing the mouse I am relying on the changing colors of the menus. After that madness there is a big load scene where sound keeps skipping. Finally I am in this swirling big block smoke stuff. I hear swimming noises, splashes, and I see a red dot. I read that the red dot is supposed to be the tail of an airplane. There is no tail, just two parallel lines of fire and that red dot.

[ryant]

I cannot agree more. The original thread, viewed 300,000+ times was shut down because 1 or 2 people were fighting on page 300+. How that invalidates the previous 290 some pages is beyond me.

Additionally, a 23 page thread, that pre-dated this one was shut down, and folks corralled into this smaller pen.

Now, should anyone (and remember, something like well over 50% of allll posts in these forums touch upon Securom) or two people violate rules, the entire topic will be closed.

Pardon me if I see this as a blatant attempt at an eventual sweeping under the rug..
People were saying on that thread that it was looking like it was going to be shut. The signs were there. 2K Elizabeth banned one member. Started warning people posting against Securom for little or nothing, then suddenly banned another member really for nothing, and then closed the thread about a day later. It pretty much looked like a plan. And all just so that people now have to start explaining to japester all over again why the copy protection in Bioshock is wrong. This place is a crazy place really.

[Destop]

People were saying on that thread that it was looking like it was going to be shut. The signs were there. 2K Elizabeth banned one member. Started warning people posting against Securom for little or nothing, then suddenly banned another member really for nothing, and then closed the thread about a day later. It pretty much looked like a plan. And all just so that people now have to start explaining to japester all over again why the copy protection in Bioshock is wrong. This place is a crazy place really.

See, that's why I've put Japester on ignore long ago. He advocates the "Nothing is wrogn!" philosophy and while being blissfully ignorant might have its merits at the appropriate time, he does it for Bioshock PC while pretending a few facts (the ones Silus pointed out) never happened. And thus, he never involves them in his reasoning, which make them ultimately flawed. As such, his opinion is worth about as much as anyone who doesn't know anything about the case. It's fun to read the reactions to his strawmen, though, adding more flavour to the thread and such =).

[wildquinine]

When they see me playing an Unreal match they think thats some sick action, but they still think they'd beat me if halo 3 was on PC and I could play against their consoles online, that is my dream BTW PC2Console™ online gaming.

FYI, this was made possible in FASA's Shadowrun, which was much maligned in the press, but which - as a game - I really liked.

MS completely destroyed it though.

PC gamers had to buy a 'Live!' subscription to play online against Xbox players, and it was all done with the Live! interface - so no server browser. Just Live! finding you a match, and you, joining it.

And it was made 'Vista only' for no reason better than to sell Vista. Crap.


Anyway. To answer your friends, I loved shadowrun for two reasons - one because it was really good fun, and two, because I could kick ass. (see one).

Seriously, I'm not a great gamer, 25 years of playing games has sufficed to make my dispraxic fingers just about alright.

However. In Shadowrun, I was a master of death - because the vast majority of my opponents were on consoles.

I would mop the floor with their auto-aiming butts, nine times in ten.

And this is in a game where the were genuine advantages to the console controller (switching weapons made much easier on Xbox than PC).

No contest.

[BioShockWins]

I'm sure most of you are aware, but we have a SecuROM tool thingy now! (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/revoketool.html)

It is very shiny...

[darious]

I'm sure most of you are aware, but we have a SecuROM tool thingy now! (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/revoketool.html)

It is very shiny...

It's a start...but you dropped the ball one one thing:

"Q: So how do I get these activations from multiple user accounts on the same computer back?

A: 2K Games are working on a solution for this with our activation partner, as soon as a solution is found we will make it available. For now, if you get stuck, please refer to the Exceptional Cases - Requests for Additional Activations section in the ReadMe document for more information. "
------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[matches81]

I'm sure most of you are aware, but we have a SecuROM tool thingy now! (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/revoketool.html)

It is very shiny...

That "it is very shiny" somehow remembered me of Ethan from the CtrlAltDel comic :)
Btw: I've read the FAQ for the revoke tool, and it's kinda sad, 2K needs nearly 7 weeks for this tool and then it doesn't handle one of the so-called "best practices" for Windows, being that you use an administrator account only for installing and another account without admin rights for your normal every-day stuff. With Bioshock's activation system that requires two activations, one of which will be gone because the revoke tool can't deal with multiple accounts properly. Not so nice. But... whatever.

Well... now that the revoke tool is out and patch is in its hopefully final stages, 2K should have time to answer our questions, right? ;)

[darious]

And when is the securom uninstaller coming?


------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy 2K games: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy 2K Games: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[ddave]

Phew, Darious misspelt securom to make...a silly word, and it was 'corrected'* within one minute. Who did he 'insult?' The great god Sony? Oh dear...

While the moderators have their spider sense all a-tingly, can they please report to the decision makers that this tool will not do *at all* for a lot of people, for reasons explained at length here and in the big thread.

As matches81 says, surely now there must be more time for 2K to answer our questions?

* for some reason, I'm reminded of The Shining.

[redrain85]

Wow, and just when I was starting to believe that the revoke tool would never show (after weeks of hearing "it's in final testing"). However . . .
Q: Can I install BioShock on the same computer under different user accounts?

A: Yes, although you will be asked to activate it for each user account, which will use up one of your activations.

Q: Will I be able to revoke the activations under each account and free up all the activations for each user account using the BioShock Revoke Tool?

A: No! Unfortunately, the revoke tool will only revoke the activations once for any given computer, the activations used for any additional user accounts will remain active.

Q: So how do I get these activations from multiple user accounts on the same computer back?

A: 2K Games are working on a solution for this with our activation partner, as soon as a solution is found we will make it available. For now, if you get stuck, please refer to the Exceptional Cases - Requests for Additional Activations section in the ReadMe document for more information.
Lame! I thought this would have been dealt with properly, but no.

And isn't it sad how difficult and complex the activation system is for Bioshock? That there were so many issues, an FAQ is required to address all the questions (complaints)? But at least this time someone bothered to write a decent FAQ.

Is is really worth all the effort to keep this unpopular activation scheme in place? When you consider all the time, expense, and ill-will it's generated . . . I just can't see the sense in it. The game has long since been cracked, all you're doing is angering the legitimate customers.

And if you think that by delivering a future patch through SecuROM's autopatch feature, that you can protect the game again . . . pirates will crack the update again soon enough. It's a futile effort.

[wilk0r]

Err ... I'm not sure but ... are you talking to 2K ?

Yep, talking to 2K. Sorry, I should have clarified with the non-existent 'edit' button. Amusingly, thanks to Trexmaster, the complete and unexpurgated version of my post appears to have been preserved.

Elizabeth, the original post was a legitimate question. I am led to believe you occasionally answer these on the official forums, although several other threads seem to suggest otherwise. Does posting on these forums actually convey my point, or should I do something more noticeable to get your attention? I suggested a written letter, but I guess it's not entirely unrealistic for a company to simply burn several thousand letters of complaint. Setting fire to a Gorilla-Gram however, is an entirely different ballgame...

Once again; 2K, this is infantile.

[Destop]

So here is one for the timekeepers:

2K Time: "Soon" = 10 days.

For now.

[Cornelius]

Is is really worth all the effort to keep this unpopular activation scheme in place?

2K just makes it seem that way. Apparently they have to keep going back to SONY DADC for SecuROM functionality that they have already figured out in the version they sell on Steam. What was once a proprietor of a fine software title is now the snake oil salesman of badly implemented DRM.

They seem to have decided that they could not sell this straight up and so have used carrot and stick every step of the way. Now when people protest this "draconian" DRM they will be told that they have already been "given" 2 activations already, then 5, and now the revoke tool what more do you want!?

[z3razerviper]

what more do you want!?

I wan't a commit date for the COMPLETE REMOVAL of the online activation scheme!

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Surprisingly enough the "revoke tool" actually made it onto the site, but as we can see, all it turned out to be is a band-aid for the issue and not what anyone expected.

If someone installs the game on separate user accounts, they lose all but one activation they used, which is reclaimed by the tool, and it can only be used once per computer? So much for future installs on the same machine after a format or reinstall. I guess the "fingerprint" of the hardware/software configuration of the given computer must be saved somewhere on the activation servers if the tool can only be used once per computer, how else does it know? Now we get to run yet another .EXE on our systems without knowing what it is doing and how, wonderful. :rolleyes:

This is not a fix for the users, it is an insult added to an already injured customer base. What about all those before this tool came out who already lost activations because of problems with installs, bad "activation" servers and such? What do they get?

Anything less than the complete removal of the "activation" is just another slap in the face of every PC customer who supported 2K and this release. Way to thank your customers 2K, but then again, we already know the community you cater to play on a small box ironically named after the full circumference of a circle. Anyone outside of the "circle" gets a band-aid while everyone else inside of it get handed everything on a silver platter.

Make available a DL for the game EXE that is missing off of the Disc I already paid for (incomplete software being sold, with no customer notification, where did it say I had to download additional files? That the software I was buying was INCOMPLETE? Again, Illegal), remove from this downloadable game EXE, the functions for activation and then MAYBE, just MAYBE, you will actually start doing something right for the PC community.

These stop gap measures 2K have been making are rediculous. Just remove that which isn't needed, (since about 6 days after release, if you have the cognitive ability to figure out what I am talking about 2K, although I doubt it) and stop SecuRscrewing your paying PC customers.

[2K Elizabeth]

If someone installs the game on separate user accounts, they lose all but one activation they used, which is reclaimed by the tool, and it can only be used once per computer? So much for future installs on the same machine after a format or reinstall.

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

[vläd]

Hi!
I4U (http://www.i4u.com/article12062.html) is reporting that changing video cards causes Bioshock to reactivate, counting against the total number of activations. Is this indeed the case?

Just curious, so I thought I would ask.

[2K Elizabeth]

Hi!
I4U (http://www.i4u.com/article12062.html) is reporting that changing video cards causes Bioshock to reactivate, counting against the total number of activations. Is this indeed the case?

Just curious, so I thought I would ask.

most often, a video card change would not need you to reactivate BioShock. major changes -- like a motherboard (a change that would need you to reinstall your OS) would generally need you to reactivate. but a video card, probably not. (when i changed mine, i didn't need to reactivate.)

[vläd]

Wow! Thanks for that VERY fast reply Elizabeth!

[z3razerviper]

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

That still does not solve the whole pc crashes problem. Can you at least tell us it they are close to a commit day on removing the online activation altogether?

[Phuc Yu]

*sigh*

I don't have the time any more to constantly peek into these threads and add a dose of reality, but I'll take a moment to give you "freedom fighters" something to consider:

1) If you're going to dismiss a deterrent (like DRM) because it isn't 100% effective, then you better get rid of every deterrent out there--including the police and the prison system. Nothing is 100% effective.

2) It's obvious none of you guys have any experience with engineering. Do you know how a structural engineer tests a new design? You keep adding more stress to it....until it breaks. It's the same with copy protection. The only way to make it better is to put it out there, let the code-kiddies smack away at it till it breaks, then look at the cracked code and figure out how to improve it for next time.

And the person who said it was cracked in five days is wrong. It took them nine full days of furious coding to break it. Seeing as how most games are usually cracked in 24 hours, that is an 800% increase in effectiveness. I'd call that a step in the right direction. ;)

(You might be confused because incomplete copies were being torrented prior to that along with full copies that couldn't be activated because SecuROM itself hadn't been hacked yet.)

We, as a society, have proven that good will and trust will get you nothing but a kick in the teeth, so the days of developers sinking years of hard work into a project on the hopes that people will "do the right thing" are gone. The average Joe just doesn't think like that any more. And its a crying shame. So until we learn to police each other, expect security measures to get tighter and tighter. Don't expect new and better games to be produced if you insist on zero copy protection. It just ain't gonna work that way.

The day they remove copy protection from all games is the day they remove those speed bumps from every quarter mile of road in the US...... :cool:

Well, it took 10 pages for the shills to start to show up.
9 days for the game to be fully cracked. Theres even a version that even applies the crack for you. How much do you think 2k paid for securom? What do you think that breaks down to per day ?
Best guesses on the number of people who waited and downloaded just to spite 2k for this issue? I mean people who were going to buy, but the DRM debacle pushed them over the edge. Was there even any doubt that it would be cracked.
Funny that Oblivion can be one of the best selling PC games around and all they have is a CD check. Funny that a game called Galactic Civilizations can sell very well for it's genre with no protection at all, even after Starforce linked to a torrent for the game.
DRM is a self sustaining industry with no tangible benefits. It alienates consumers, challenges pirates and provides apologists like you with something to do and a forum to spew right wing bile to whoever will listen.
Your step in the right direction happens to violate my fair use rights under the law. I will never trade my rights for any kind of security. A companies right to protect itself ends when my rights are violated. Cops and the prison system do not violate my rights. They do not put me on parole because I might commit a crime. If I sell copies I made, charge and prosecute me, otherwise, **** off.

[BloodRayne]

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

Confusion is not uncommon with such blatant miscommunications all the time.

I was told it was safe to uninstall and upgrade my machine by 2k tech support and that i would get my installation 'back' when the revoke tool would be released. This was during the process back when I was still trying to make it work at all. I told them then I though it was highly unlikely it would work lilke that. Fanboys called me 'stupid' and 2k support never answered back.

Was I lied to again?

I'm afraid so, Young Padawan.. 2k has once again lied to you and cheated you out of 1 installation because they were too afraid to simply speak the truth. The path of the dark side is a misleading one indeed.

I'd be banned if I'd call you guys flat down right liars, but that's what you are. Again and again. Now you've cheated me out of one installation, thanks again for nothing.

[ddave]

If someone installs the game on separate user accounts, they lose all but one activation they used, which is reclaimed by the tool, and it can only be used once per computer? So much for future installs on the same machine after a format or reinstall.

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

Let me get this straight. The revoke tool will revoke 1 activation per machine, as often as requested, but each install under a separate account uses up an activation, so that at present multiple accounts on the same machine cannot have all their activations recredited. So the error in Pj_dmsfrnd's post is the phrase 'and it can only be used once per computer' but the rest is accurate. Is that correct?

And from the FAQ, 2K is working on implementing per-account revocation. Is that correct?

[trexmaster]

Hello,

Could you please postyour questions about the Revoke Tool in the relevant thread please ?

[Grinsomx]

And from the FAQ, 2K is working on implementing per-account revocation. Is that correct?

while they should be working on dumping this crap, no one (who is not blinded by adoration) likes to go through all this mess for a GAME....
you get a revoke tool, hurray..NOT!
what if you fry your comp? bbye to 1 credit? i think so.
and please...2K explain this to me, how does annoying us paying customers fight piracy?
oh i know...you're fanboys will eat me alive for such comments and who knows, i might even get banned for saying the truth about some of them.
but all of that still doesnt take away the problem or answer any questions.
also, what was wrong with the good old cd check? they can crack it? they can crack anything.....a thief will allways steal your gold, no matter how many locks you put on your door. protect your product, we all know you have to.
but ffs stop poluting the games you sell with crap like activation limits and screwurom!
for the fanboy calling me crazy or whatever he thinks i might be.....give me 1 VALID reason why i should allow crappy 3th party installs on my computer,
without any notice on the website or box, in the installer or eula??
same thing with the activation limit.....1 good reason why i should agree?
ah stfu...i know you cant find any

[toto952]

This revoke tool is, like I feared, just a clumsy band-aid ; an overly-complicated scheme that solves only a small subset of potential problems.

A much better and simpler revoke tool would have been a dumb web page, hosted by Sony/Securom, where you enter your serial and it resets ALL your activation tokens, although that would be allowed only once every six months for example. And already installed copies of the game would still work (though they need the DVD in the drive, so it's not a real problem for the publisher).

However, I'm still fundamentally against crapactivivation : this has nothing to do in a pay-to-own business model.

[Silus]

while they should be working on dumping this crap, no one (who is not blinded by adoration) likes to go through all this mess for a GAME....
you get a revoke tool, hurray..NOT!
what if you fry your comp? bbye to 1 credit? i think so.
and please...2K explain this to me, how does annoying us paying customers fight piracy?
oh i know...you're fanboys will eat me alive for such comments and who knows, i might even get banned for saying the truth about some of them.
but all of that still doesnt take away the problem or answer any questions.
also, what was wrong with the good old cd check? they can crack it? they can crack anything.....a thief will allways steal your gold, no matter how many locks you put on your door. protect your product, we all know you have to.
but ffs stop poluting the games you sell with crap like activation limits and screwurom!
for the fanboy calling me crazy or whatever he thinks i might be.....give me 1 VALID reason why i should allow crappy 3th party installs on my computer,
without any notice on the website or box, in the installer or eula??
same thing with the activation limit.....1 good reason why i should agree?
ah stfu...i know you cant find any

There's no need for valid reasons. It's 2K's way or the highway. All we can do is NOT support their products. If you already bought the game, then I'm sorry to say, you were screwed by 2K and they don't care.
We've been saying almost the same thing as you did, in "the" thread. And even so, with over 3000 replies and over 300000 views, 2K did nothing more than ignore our questions. Ignore, because we NEVER asked for a revoke tool. We asked for the complete removal of install limits. They don't want to do that and prefer to keep the lies and deceit.
The biggest lie IMO, was no doubt the fact that 2K insisted that we could uninstall the game and get one install credit back. It was a LIE, but they insisted on it or simply ignored us, as usual.

And now, it seems that not even the revoke tool, works as expected. So what else is new from 2K ?

[Grinsomx]

There's no need for valid reasons. It's 2K's way or the highway. All we can do is NOT support their products. If you already bought the game, then I'm sorry to say, you were screwed by 2K and they don't care.
We've been saying almost the same thing as you did, in "the" thread. And even so, with over 3000 replies and over 300000 views, 2K did nothing more than ignore our questions. Ignore, because we NEVER asked for a revoke tool. We asked for the complete removal of install limits. They don't want to do that and prefer to keep the lies and deceit.
The biggest lie IMO, was no doubt the fact that 2K insisted that we could uninstall the game and get one install credit back. It was a LIE, but they insisted on it or simply ignored us, as usual.

And now, it seems that not even the revoke tool, works as expected. So what else is new from 2K ?

yea i was reading "the" thread wich got silenced and locked because it was an "older" issue....
IF 2K wishes to keep up these tactics thats fine with me, i'll just spend my money on other games from other companies who fight piracy the right way.
if 2K and the companies like them start to see they're not gaining anything with intrusive 3th party software. i might consider buying their products again...
for the moment i am turning my eye to other game houses and ask them not to act like complete paranoid ***'s

[trexmaster]

So what else is new from 2K ?

Nothing really.

We asked for the complete removal of the activition limits, we get a revoke tool that half-works (only removes one activation per machine, what if you have multiple accounts ?).

We asked for a tool to uninstall SecuROM, we get nothing but disdain (in the best case).

We make arguments against SecuROM and the activation crap, most of them valid (I haven't personnaly checked all of them so I can't be sure for all of them), and we get nothing but disdain again.

If that's the kind of customer support and public relations 2K wants to maintain with their customers (none) then fine, but that's really bad advertisement for the company.

[wildquinine]

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

I believe you are confusing the issue.

This was clearly not what was being asked about, although the original question was badly phrased. I will explain the situation.

1) You can install the game, revoke the activation, and uninstall the game on one computer as often as you like as long as you do this on only one user account at a time on this one machine.

2) If you use multiple user accounts to play Bioshock on one computer, then using the revoke tool will not give you back all the activation credits you used.

No matter how many times you run it, the revoke tool will only credit back one activation per installation. It will not credit back one activation per account.

So if you installed the game as Administrator, but played it as Tom, Dick, and also Harry then you would have used FOUR activations installing and playing the game. You would get back ONE activation by using the revoke tool. You would therefore have used THREE of your FIVE activations, which you would not be able to recover.

[darious]

Phew, Darious misspelt securom to make...a silly word, and it was 'corrected'* within one minute. Who did he 'insult?' The great god Sony? Oh dear...

While the moderators have their spider sense all a-tingly, can they please report to the decision makers that this tool will not do *at all* for a lot of people, for reasons explained at length here and in the big thread.



It's worse than that actually. I posted the same questions on the shiny and stickied thread and they were flat out deleted.

Can't have anything negative in a stickied thread now can we?

Of course I posted the questions there hoping to actually get an answer since none are ever forthcoming in this thread.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[miasma]

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.


From the faq:

Q: Can I install BioShock on the same computer under different user accounts?

A: Yes, although you will be asked to activate it for each user account, which will use up one of your activations.

Q: Will I be able to revoke the activations under each account and free up all the activations for each user account using the BioShock Revoke Tool?

A: No! Unfortunately, the revoke tool will only revoke the activations once for any given computer, the activations used for any additional user accounts will remain active.

So, how do we get rid of all activations used on a computer with multiple accounts? If I install as admin then move to my own account, the revoke tool gets rid of the admin activation but ignores my activation. How do I revoke my activation too?

[matches81]

From the faq:

Q: Can I install BioShock on the same computer under different user accounts?

A: Yes, although you will be asked to activate it for each user account, which will use up one of your activations.

Q: Will I be able to revoke the activations under each account and free up all the activations for each user account using the BioShock Revoke Tool?

A: No! Unfortunately, the revoke tool will only revoke the activations once for any given computer, the activations used for any additional user accounts will remain active.

So, how do we get rid of all activations used on a computer with multiple accounts? If I install as admin then move to my own account, the revoke tool gets rid of the admin activation but ignores my activation. How do I revoke my activation too?

Simple ;) You don't. At least not with that revoke tool.

[slumber rig]

wow this is just a "10% resolution" !!!
which equals BS!!!

[Mike]

I had completely forgotten that ! Now I know where I can spend the 50 euros I didn't spend on Bioshock ! They (Radiohead) have a collector version for about the same price if I remember correctly. And it doesn't have any stupid DRM ! :D
(All that coming from someone who haven't bought a single CD since 8 years ago).

Lesson for 2K (and other DRM addict companies) :
- DRM (which doesn't prevent piracy) = unhappy customers = less sales in the end + mistrust in future products + free bad advertisement
- no DRM = happy customers = more sales + trust + free good advertisement

Radiohead actually kind of dropped the ball on that: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1571737/20071011/radiohead.jhtml

Where it seemed like they wanted to start something new with media distribution, it looks more like they wanted to hype up their album for an actual CD which will be way better quality than the low-birate MP3s they put up (and announcing the quality a day in advance was also an excellent move).

Just saying they may not be the greatest example in this case.

[SimpleSimon]

I told you why before. It's an "older issue" for 2K.

But it's STILL an issue, and a very relevant one.

[SimpleSimon]

I believe you are confused. If you install BioShock on a PC, then uninstall and revoke the activation, reformat the machine, and reinstall BioShock, you will still have only used 1 credit on that machine. You can repeat this as often as you want, even with adding or changing hardware, as long as you revoke the activation before you change around the configuration.

Which is completely unacceptable. If I add a modem, or change my NIC, I don't expect *ANY* of my software to have *ANY* complaints about it.

[miasma]

Radiohead actually kind of dropped the ball on that: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1571737/20071011/radiohead.jhtml

Where it seemed like they wanted to start something new with media distribution, it looks more like they wanted to hype up their album for an actual CD which will be way better quality than the low-birate MP3s they put up (and announcing the quality a day in advance was also an excellent move).

Just saying they may not be the greatest example in this case.

160kbps is hardly "low rate". People buy tracks online at just 120kbps so that article is just being sensationalist tosh, ignore it. Nor is buying it for nothing something I complain about too loudly.

Not being told at all that the price I was paying for a game was just to rent it, however, is different. That really annoys me.

[miasma]

And funny enough I'm listening to it now. Don't like the first two tracks but it's pretty cool after that.

[Silus]

But it's STILL an issue, and a very relevant one.

Of course it is. I just repeated what 2K Elizabeth said.

[2K Elizabeth]

Which is completely unacceptable. If I add a modem, or change my NIC, I don't expect *ANY* of my software to have *ANY* complaints about it.

this shouldn't be a problem. major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. a "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

i've said this several times.

[ddave]

Hello Elizabeth,

I see you are online and I don't imagine you have the time to look back through many pages. Could you please confirm or otherwise what I think is the situation with the revoke tool in post 103 of this thread?

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229445&postcount=138

Thanks.

[2K Elizabeth]

Hello Elizabeth,

I see you are online and I don't imagine you have the time to look back through many pages. Could you please confirm or otherwise what I think is the situation with the revoke tool in post 103 of this thread?

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229445&postcount=138

Thanks.

hi dave,

this is all explained in the FAQ.

Q: Can I install BioShock on the same computer under different user accounts?
A: Yes, although you will be asked to activate it for each user account, which will use up one of your activations.

Q: Will I be able to revoke the activations under each account and free up all the activations for each user account using the BioShock Revoke Tool?
A: No! Unfortunately, the revoke tool will only revoke the activations once for any given computer, the activations used for any additional user accounts will remain active.

Q: So how do I get these activations from multiple user accounts on the same computer back?
A: 2K Games are working on a solution for this with our activation partner, as soon as a solution is found we will make it available. For now, if you get stuck, please refer to the Exceptional Cases - Requests for Additional Activations section in the ReadMe document for more information.




simply put, if you do install the game on account A and account B on 1 machine, it will take 2 activations. as of right now, you can only revoke 1 of those 2 activations. however, in the rare case where you need both of these activations, you can request an additional activation for the second account, and we will give you another one.

[matches81]

this shouldn't be a problem. major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. a "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

i've said this several times.

In addition to ddave's question, I've add another one:
How does 2K think they are in their rights with those activation limits?
They are mentioned exactly nowhere. So, there is no base for those things. I really want an answer to that, if 2K is unable to tell us when they'll remove that stuff altogether. How do they justify their actions?

[ddave]

hi dave,

this is all explained in the FAQ.

<snip>

simply put, if you do install the game on account A and account B on 1 machine, it will take 2 activations. as of right now, you can only revoke 1 of those 2 activations. however, in the rare case where you need both of these activations, you can request an additional activation for the second account, and we will give you another one.

Right, that's what I thought. Thanks. It was less than clear from the two quotes cited in my first post. So multiple account users will gradually 'run out of' activations as time goes by and will have to get in touch with you.

This is a serious question and is not meant to be an ambush, but I really don't have a digital camera, so how am I meant to prove I own the game if those circumstances arise?

To anticipate your answer, even if/when a per-account revocation tool is produced, machine failures could quite easily over time take out all your activation credits. What then for the overseas non-camera-owning purchaser?

[2K Elizabeth]

Right, that's what I thought. Thanks. It was less than clear from the two quotes cited in my first post. So multiple account users will gradually 'run out of' activations as time goes by and will have to get in touch with you.

This is a serious question and is not meant to be an ambush, but I really don't have a digital camera, so how am I meant to prove I own the game if those circumstances arise?

To anticipate your answer, even if/when a per-account revocation tool is produced, machine failures could quite easily over time take out all your activation credits. What then for the overseas non-camera-owning purchaser?

i am certain when that time comes, you can call the support number for your region, and we will work something out. i'm not going to detail (or hunt down the answer) for every hypothetical customer support issue -- but we have procedures for them, and can make exceptions case-by-case.

[ddave]

Elizabeth: Interesting reply. Thanks.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

i'm not going to detail (or hunt down the answer) for every hypothetical customer support issue

Interesting indeed. You will hunt down a single post by a member so you can ban them, but won't find an answer for a question that is asked by a paying customer? Hypothetical or not, The forum is here to ask questions is it not? Anyone who "man" the site such as the moderators or yourself are here to answer those questions correct?

Why is this "activation" system even left in place to keep the people who bought the game from using it how they wish? People who have "downloaded" it from places other than steam/direct2drive don't have to deal with this, people who have the 360 copy don't have to deal with this. Why is it the paying PC customers who have to deal with it?

This is what has been asked many times, but never answered. It is either always ignored, deleted, or the thread its asked in gets closed.

I'm not trying to bust anyones chops, but the question is a valid one, and deserves an answer. Many people with the PC version would love to know why they are forced to pay for a severely restricted "rental", when everyone else is not.

[ReverendTed]

3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM....which is why any software that installs SecuROM should include an automated uninstallation utility.

It's ludicrous and patently unacceptable to say to a customer that "Our product installs X, Y, and Z. When removed, it only uninstalls X and Y."

To add, "and if you manually uninstall Z yourself, it might break something," is even more irresponsible.

[wildquinine]

...which is why any software that installs SecuROM should include an automated uninstallation utility.

It's ludicrous and patently unacceptable to say to a customer that "Our product installs X, Y, and Z. When removed, it only uninstalls X and Y."

To add, "and if you manually uninstall Z yourself, it might break something," is even more irresponsible.

Well said!

As you may know, I'm no fan of Securom but in the non-limiting previous versions it has been something that I have decided is worth putting up with. When it was just a CD check, I considered this to be acceptable. It was inconvenient, but there has to be some give and take.

I consider limiting activations to be more take than I'm willing to put up with, and that's a line that I don't think is fit, fair, or even legal to cross.

However. This post singularly summarises the best reasons to dislike securom and its implementations apart from activation issues, and I applaud you for such succinct thinking.

[Destop]

I consider limiting activations to be more take than I'm willing to put up with, and that's a line that I don't think is fit, fair, or even legal to cross.

It is legal if you are made aware of the limiting activations beforehand. However, there is no brain cell in my chatterbox which even remotely considers limited activation credits as some insignificant feature that doesn't need to be mentioned to the customer in any way.

[Cornelius]

simply put, if you do install the game on account A and account B on 1 machine, it will take 2 activations. as of right now, you can only revoke 1 of those 2 activations. however, in the rare case where you need both of these activations, you can request an additional activation for the second account, and we will give you another one.

Elizabeth you do not install the game under account A and account B on the same computer. What you are doing is installing the game once on the computer but the game is activated twice, once under account A and once under account B. 1 install and 2 activations.

Your previous technical FAQ from the 23rd of August referred to account activations as "installs" too and this (along with your original post about this) is where most of the confusion comes from.

2K increased the maximum installs on the same computer from 3 to 5, before you need to seek customer support. The revoke application we will release will make this irrelevant - as long as you revoke before you install again, you will have no issues.

But alas the revoke application has not made this irrelevant. Uninstalling the game was supposed to automatically revoke all of the account activations in the first place.

This is madness? THIS IS SECUROM!

[uglor808]

A simple DVD-rom drive swap will kick up the activation, and wouldn't require an OS reinstall. I would think a new NIC will require reactivation also.

this shouldn't be a problem. major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. a "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

i've said this several times.

[Seamstress]

I am not sure if this helps anyone or if it is ever relevant but has anyone looked at the SecuROM or sonydadc websites about these issues? I mean it is only their software not 2k's software.

And I am curious if anyone could tell me which version of SecuROM is installed with Bioshock?
It isn’t all that important but I would like to know.

Thanks

[GoOse.buffAWh]

why don't people just get the lolcats version instead of complantin about the secuROM issues
if have legally brought the game when theres no reason for 2k to compain
and its their own fault if they get ripped off now

Don't screw your fanbase 2k (well it wasn't your fansbase you brough another company irration and totally screw them over )

This sounds like it is owned by sony (take2)
Rockstar bums sony all the games come out the playstation frist
except some tennis rubbish
Bioshock with this secuRom crap

[Pikey Joe]

I am not sure if this helps anyone or if it is ever relevant but has anyone looked at the SecuROM or sonydadc websites about these issues? I mean it is only their software not 2k's software.


Buyers of Bioshock have entered into no purchase or license agreement with SecuROM.

The responsibility for any problems rests with entirely 2K games.

[Jakester]

i am certain when that time comes, you can call the support number for your region, and we will work something out. i'm not going to detail (or hunt down the answer) for every hypothetical customer support issue -- but we have procedures for them, and can make exceptions case-by-case.
Well, you were also certain that the demo didn't contain SecuROM....how can we trust you? (again, not a why question)

[Jakester]

why don't people just get the lolcats version instead of complantin about the secuROM issues
Buying the game with this sort of copy-protection in it is tanamount to endorsing it. Complaining about it is the only way to let 2k (and any other company who happens to hear about all the problems 2k are having with their fanbase) know that we won't tolerate this kind of DRM.

[miasma]

...which is why any software that installs SecuROM should include an automated uninstallation utility.

It's ludicrous and patently unacceptable to say to a customer that "Our product installs X, Y, and Z. When removed, it only uninstalls X and Y."

To add, "and if you manually uninstall Z yourself, it might break something," is even more irresponsible.

Very good point. 2K have as much responsibility as securom for this, if securom say, oh we can't be bothered using a proper installer and taking care of how we manage files, then 2K should immediately cease using that type of badly written copy protection software, not just shrug and say not our problem. It only confirms a shoddy attitude to their customers by 2K if they don't care that they are forcing bad software on people this way.

[miasma]

i am certain when that time comes, you can call the support number for your region, and we will work something out. i'm not going to detail (or hunt down the answer) for every hypothetical customer support issue -- but we have procedures for them, and can make exceptions case-by-case.

For some that means having to make an International call just to be allowed do something we can do with any other normal game. Why not just make the revocation tool work properly in the first place? It stinks this, its a total **** up.

[japester]

I'm not a SecuROM expert or anything, but wasn't it mentioned that uninstalling it would cause any other SecuROM games (of which there are many) to stop working? I rarely see that brought up.

That may be why an uninstall tool is unavailable. It is quite possible that uniformed people--who have had SecuROM safely and unobtrusively running on their systems, problem-free for a year or more--might uninstall it simply due to the BioShock brouhaha, then wonder why their other games no longer work.

Seems they are trying to set up SecuROM as a universal resource, not a case-by-case software protection system. So deleting it isn't like erasing a program you dislike, it's more like deleting a shared and critical system dll.

Food for thought as you guys keep making your demands. Keep that big picture in mind.

[miasma]

Seems they are trying to set up SecuROM as a universal resource, not a case-by-case software protection system. So deleting it isn't like erasing a program you dislike, it's more like deleting a shared and critical system dll.

Food for thought as you guys keep making your demands. Keep that big picture in mind.

Who are? And have they told anybody about this? Maybe Microsoft for example? Or even the people who get it sneaked onto their PC? Comparing a commercial utility, and obviously badly programmed piece of software (given it apparently, according to 2K, can't even remember where it put its own files) ,with a critical system file really shows you up just to be joker. Maybe thats a picture to keep in mind before you post again.

[Jakester]

I'm not a SecuROM expert or anything, but wasn't it mentioned that uninstalling it would cause any other SecuROM games (of which there are many) to stop working? I rarely see that brought up.
No, that's why some people (Silus and Destop, I believe) have suggested that the Bioshock uninstaller only remove the SecuROM components relevant to Bioshock.

That may be why an uninstall tool is unavailable. It is quite possible that uniformed people--who have had SecuROM safely and unobtrusively running on their systems, problem-free for a year or more--might uninstall it simply due to the BioShock brouhaha, then wonder why their other games no longer work.
You left out unknowningly and unwittingly. If game companies would, oh, I don't know, inform their paying customers about SecuROM, then the end user would be able to make an informed judgment about whether or not it is safe to remove the "service" altogether. Honesty isn't important to you, is it, Japester?

Seems they are trying to set up SecuROM as a universal resource, not a case-by-case software protection system. So deleting it isn't like erasing a program you dislike, it's more like deleting a shared and critical system dll.
Yeah. I'm really not going to support anything that tries to set up a Sony created "service" on my machine. Especially one that sends undisclosed encrypted data to their servers.

Food for thought as you guys keep making your demands.
Keep the poisoned food to yourself, please.

[gmm1]

Boy, do I feel silly. All this time my lazy reading thought Japester and Jakester were the same person (that is, I read them as the same).

I could not figure out why "he" kept flip-floping back and forth.

My bad.....

[japester]

Since you aren't comprehending my post, I'll rephrase:

What I said wasn't necessarily in support of SecuROM. But removal of it may cripple other games (Sims2, Neverwinter Knights 2, etc) that use SecuROM. Well and good that you guys all hate the software, but do you think calling for an uninstaller isn't complicated by this fact? Ignoring this big fact during your rants shows how unfocussed you guys are.

And I totally don't get Jakester's comment about "only removing components relevant to BioShock". Wha-? Isn't the "BioShock component" nothing more than a numerical value referenced when you verify a new install online? What will removing that value do?

That's okay. It's fun to watch you noble freedom fighters stew.

Carry on. I'll keep playing BioShock. :p

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

I'm not a SecuROM expert or anything, but wasn't it mentioned that uninstalling it would cause any other SecuROM games (of which there are many) to stop working?


Since the "program" is installed, and folders, reg entries, and directories are made/created (mind you, all without a single shred of user consent or notification), the "program" should be able to reverse this without affecting other installed software since it didn't interfere with them on install in the first place. Simple concept really. IF it is changing already installed software, this is yet ANOTHER violation of a users rights since alterations of ANY file on a users system is not supposed to take place by a 3rd party software WITHOUT user notification/consent. (please do not argue that windows changes files all the time. Windows is an OS with the ability to access the highest levels in the system, as it needs to and should be allowed to. SecuRom is NOT, and should not be allowed to access ANY level of the system, but for some reason, it does, like when it refuses to run an application you paid for, while the "process explorer" drivers are loaded for example. That is driver level access, SecuRom should not have that kind of system access to even know what drivers are running. Also, while preventing some drivers/programs from running, it runs it's own in the background without user acknowledgment, and can open up hidden, encrypted connections since it is now embedded with OPENSSL, a technology that is new in the latest version of this crap DRM. Nothing like this was present in previous versions. So it was "acceptable" in most cases before the newest incarnation.)

SecuRom is made this way so it can NOT be removed. This is the design of it, it isn't poorly written, it is written exactly how it was intended to be. If you have a pre-existing copy of software on your system that uses the same "protection", installing another version of it overwrites the older files, thus making it non-removable unless you agree to making the older software installs unusable. That is not acceptable since I(and many others) have paid for those other "older" pieces of software, and they shouldn't be rendered "useless" by the install, and removal of a new "program". Since the "program" can be installed, it inherently has the ability to "remember" it's changes, and revert to the originals when removed. This is the normal behavior for any installer, but since Sony feels They have the right to tell people what they can and can not install on their PC's, this option is left out. 2K could have made the installer "remember" the original entries and made a backup of them, they decided not to, so it becomes their problem since they decided on this protection scheme and didn't make it a point to notify the buyer of it's use, before, or after purchase.

So if your done "guessing" as to why anyone should have to put up with this, and we should all just shut up and deal with it as you have, then please stop posting in a thread about issues you don't have a problem with, as that is trolling, and according to the great "liz"zard of OZ, trolling is not allowed, and you should, (I meant could :rolleyes: ), be banned for it. (although that won't happen since you're all for anything 2K does like the rest of the lapdogs, but that is just a personal observation, and is in no way to be construed as an insult against anyone working with/for 2K, I'm merely just stating a factual observation.)

[miasma]

Since you aren't comprehending my post, I'll rephrase:

What I said wasn't necessarily in support of SecuROM. But removal of it may cripple other games (Sims2, Neverwinter Knights 2, etc) that use SecuROM. Well and good that you guys all hate the software, but do you think calling for an uninstaller isn't complicated by this fact? Ignoring this big fact during your rants shows how unfocussed you guys are.

And I totally don't get Jakester's comment about "only removing components relevant to BioShock". Wha-? Isn't the "BioShock component" nothing more than a numerical value referenced when you verify a new install online? What will removing that value do?

That's okay. It's fun to watch you noble freedom fighters stew.

Carry on. I'll keep playing BioShock. :p

Why would anyone "stew" over the fact that, as you say yourself, "you don't get it". It's been explained, loads of times, by loads of people, but you are not able to understand yet you keep coming back to demonstrate to everyone you don't understand. Are you not embarrassed by that now?

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Miraculously enough, I got a warning. :rolleyes: For what, I do NOT know as of yet. The only thread I have been really participating in, is this one, and I don't seem to recall ever "trolling", "insulting", or otherwise breaking any rules. Any/all of my posts are well within the rules AFAIK, But again, I got a warning. I now await a response to the question I replied back with.

(image deleted -- breaking rules)

I find it increasingly unsettling that even when pointing out certain people have broken the rules, they go unpunished. The only difference is those people defend 2K and their policies. How is this fair to EVERY customer who spent their money on the same game, and come here to participate in the topics posted, when if THEY happen to say something the admin or a mod doesn't like, they get warned or banned, but the REAL trolls, who break the rules on an hourly basis by baiting flames, using vulgarity, insult those with issues, participate in an issue they already stated doesn't affect or bother them, etc, go unpunished and unrestricted? How can the admin or the mods allow them to continue to disrupt every thread they post in?

This whole separation of the rules depending upon your view of 2K and it's staff needs to be addressed, every paying customer deserves to be treated EQUALLY, regardless of their viewpoints! Why is it anyone who raises a valid question, point, or concern always seem to be the one's getting warned/banned???

[matches81]

I'm not a SecuROM expert or anything, but wasn't it mentioned that uninstalling it would cause any other SecuROM games (of which there are many) to stop working? I rarely see that brought up.

That may be why an uninstall tool is unavailable. It is quite possible that uniformed people--who have had SecuROM safely and unobtrusively running on their systems, problem-free for a year or more--might uninstall it simply due to the BioShock brouhaha, then wonder why their other games no longer work.

Seems they are trying to set up SecuROM as a universal resource, not a case-by-case software protection system. So deleting it isn't like erasing a program you dislike, it's more like deleting a shared and critical system dll.

Food for thought as you guys keep making your demands. Keep that big picture in mind.

I'll try and give you some food for thought, although you may not consider it, since SecuROM or your own rights obviously don't bother you in the least:

Let's say a sensible guy wants to implement a copy protection like SecuROM that is installed seperate from the main program and by law needs to be uninstallable. One of the first things to consider is:
1. How do I keep track of what programs the copy protection is used by and how can I add a facility that allows users of my software (developers of games in this case) to add and remove "using programs" from that list? (should be done upon install / uninstall)
2. I should provide a facility to notify the owner of the system that the "universal resource" is no longer needed on the system (done by Windows for some commonly used files for example) and give him the choice to uninstall the copy protection if it is no longer needed, thereby adhering to the law.
3. I should give users the option to uninstall the copy protection software even when there are other games using it. In that case I just give a warning that some games (using (1.) I can also give a list of the games) won't work after uninstall, furthermore ensuring the user's right to remove programs he doesn't want on his system.
That are things software that is intended to be used with other software should take care of. It is required by law that any third-party software is uninstalled with the main program. SecuROM doesn't even offer a uninstall for itself, not to mention facilities for games developers or other SecuROM customers to manage it appropriately. Thus, it is simply breaking the law.
It is not our fault that 2K chose a copy protection software that doesn't obey these 3 simple things. It's their responsibility to deal with SecuROM's lackings in these points, not ours. They are obliged to do so, because they installed it as part of their program (without notifying the customer by the way).
And if you want to answer "Those things are incredibly hard to do on a modern system": They're not. A sloppy, but working solution might be simply storing identifiers for installed software in a simple text or ini file. Those identifiiers would be used during installation of the main program and during uninstallation to register and unregister that the program is installed / uninstalled. Now, as I said: A sloppy solution, but it would work, as long as the user doesn't meddle with the files himself. In that case the user's out of luck, but that's not your fault anymore.

So, if you don't care about this, your problem. But please stop telling me that it's alright. It simply is not. There simply is no way you can put it that makes it alright. Even defending against piracy doesn't justify doing illegal things yourself.

[Jakester]

I see that Liz has been active since I asked my "how" (and not "why") questions, but they still go unanswered.
Liz, it's my wife's job to ignore me and not yours. If you would like to trade with her, I'm sure she'd oblige.

[2K Elizabeth]

I see that Liz has been active since I asked my "how" (and not "why") questions, but they still go unanswered.
Liz, it's my wife's job to ignore me and not yours. If you would like to trade with her, I'm sure she'd oblige.

it's saturday, jake. no one is working to get you your answers -- i just a lot. :-)

[Dr. Ransom]

Liz... I keep wanting to give you and 2K the benefit of the doubt, and realize that companies and policies move slowly, and sometimes unintended consequences show up that cannot be fixed right away...

But now, yet again we hear official word that 2K will not provide an uninstall tool. 2K continues to either break the law, or at the very least, break all known computer ethics. And to make it worse, I see cases of people being banned and complaints covered up.

I have yet to purchase Bioshock. I refuse to give a dime to a company that breaks the law, and/or consumer ethics. It's hard to hold the moral high ground against pirates when you've stooped to their level.

I have made my decision. I will purchase bioshock from craigslist used. That is a legal method for obtaining software. I will then enjoy the torrent version without ever installing your malware on my PC. Legally. One cannot break a copyright law for software one has legally purchased...

I will continue to encourage everyone I know (and I work at a major software retailer, so that's a lot of influence and lost sales) to do the same.

I am sorry a game as great as Bioshock has to be marred by unscrupulous practices.

[immateriaux]

Miraculously enough, I got a warning. :rolleyes:

Uhhhhhhh you lucky lucky b*****d. Some of us don't even merit a warning on here. It makes it pretty hard to discuss issues when you are never sure exactly what comment might be discerned to be the one that removes your privilege to post, though I suppose that too benefits those in favour rather than those against Securom's inclusion with Bioshock and it's clumsy, ill considered activation methodology. Very few will come here to actually praise that methodology so, by default, by discouraging posting you are discouraging the appearance of negative views.

As Dr Rasom says, it is unfortunate that the rollout of Bioshock the game included new measures of copy protection that very obviously had not got the level of analysis needed at the time. The fact that the revoke tool, only now arriving two months after launch, proves to be just a hack tool is one indication of that but even the very clear lack of information with 2K themselves on the impacts of the copy protection measures demonstrates it.

[Destop]

You've inspired me to play a round of "weekend paranoia" =)

As Dr Rasom says, it is unfortunate that the rollout of Bioshock the game included new measures of copy protection that very obviously had not got the level of analysis needed at the time. The fact that the revoke tool, only now arriving two months after launch, proves to be just a hack tool is one indication of that but even the very clear lack of information with 2K themselves on the impacts of the copy protection measures demonstrates it.

Don't worry, Bioshock PC will change this. It is quite likely that the activation server gathers a few simple, non-disclosing bits of information when we have to contact it. This can be used for an internal company analysis in order to further optimise the DRM scheme. For example, a simple counter keeping tracking of the amount of revoke procedures over time, can create a nice time graph which can be analysed to see just how necessary the tool is. Or another counter can help determining the perfect amount of activation credits that generates the least amount of "awareness" in order to minimise customer support costs. It's just good business.

[Jakester]

Welcome Back, Immateriaux.
I'm not sure, but I think Liz wants to marry me now.

Destop, that's a scary proposition, but it certainly does logically follow.

[Jakester]

I must confess that I am somewhat perplexed by 2k's stance on stealing their IP. On one hand, they've enlisted Sony DADC to use SecuROM to hamper legitimate buyers from using their game in a convenient fashion, all in the name of protecting their IP.

Yet, there's a thread on this very forum in which a poster has ripped copyrighted sounds and speech passages from the game and is wantonly distributing them for people to use as they see fit -- windows sounds, ring tones, etc.

Given 2k's implementation of SecuROM, I'm surprised that they are permitting someone to infringe their copyright so blatantly on their very own forums, especially, since, as you all know, if a copyright it not defended when its owner is made aware of an infringment, the copyright can be considered void.

They're allowing someone to plug an income stream for them. Since it appears that people want to use little sister sounds for things other than an in-game experience, why don't they set up microtransactions for the in-game sounds and dialogue to allow people to legally obtain this material? If they choose not to, why are they still allowing people to distribute their copyrighted material on torrents and rapidshare and advertisiing it on their own official forums?

[darious]

This shouldn't be a problem. Major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. A "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. Putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

I've said this several times.

By the way, where does 2K Games get off deciding to punish us for things we do or don't do with our computers?

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

You've inspired me to play a round of "weekend paranoia" =)



Don't worry, Bioshock PC will change this. It is quite likely that the activation server gathers a few simple, non-disclosing bits of information when we have to contact it. This can be used for an internal company analysis in order to further optimise the DRM scheme. For example, a simple counter keeping tracking of the amount of revoke procedures over time, can create a nice time graph which can be analysed to see just how necessary the tool is. Or another counter can help determining the perfect amount of activation credits that generates the least amount of "awareness" in order to minimise customer support costs. It's just good business.


It's obvious the activation servers do in fact get sent some info. What exactly, is only known to 2K and Sony. (sure 2K will "claim" to not know, but if that were the case, they would have never decided to use the protection scheme in the first place, OR, have been able to release the half-assed "revoke-tool") Speaking of which, I could understand the cd key being authorized by the activation server (this is worst case mind you), but I thought that is how secuRom worked already, WITHOUT having to go online? I thought it accomplished this with all the registry entries and cd checks it already uses? This new incarnation of SecuRom is by far going well past the point of breaching a users rights, not only by installing itself without permission, but by also allowing itself to open up a connection out of the users computer without permission. I know my firewall never asked me, or warned me for that matter, as to the connection being established, so the connection is definitely hidden, and obviously encrypted. That alone begs the question of, why go to such lengths to hide and protect a data stream, if it is only checking a cd key with an authentication server? Or is it in fact, storing/sending the user's system config, and collecting "statistical data" as sony has called their illegal data harvests before? Time will tell I guess.

Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense to continue to force people to use something that has already been made useless. If it was to simply protect the software, well, that ship has sailed and clearly it DOESN'T anymore. Why keep the system in place if it has failed to do it's job? Or has it? Obviously, there is a reason they keep it, even if it isn't protecting their IP anymore, it's doing something that deems it's continued use necessary, and that thought alone should have anyone/everyone questioning "what for".

[trexmaster]

Hello,

This message is for 2K Elizabeth or any of the moderators.

Could you please make this thread a sticky again ? The original one was for a good reason and there are lots of info in this thread for anyone who want to fully uninstall Bioshock, including SecuROM.

There is also a good discussion, most of the time polite, on SecuROM, what it does, why it's bad or good, what's been wrong in 2K's implementation and communication around this DRM and the activation process.

All those are good reasons to make this thread a sticky, and the fact that most people here disagree with 2K's decisions isn't a valid justification to not make this thread a sticky.

Thank you,
Trexmaster

[toto952]

this shouldn't be a problem. major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. a "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

i've said this several times.
The only real way to answer would be to publish the whole list of information collected by the activation software in order to compute the hardware fingerprint, and make sure it can't change over time through updates.

Otherwise, this is just a wild guess and without clear and detailed confirmation from SecuRom, you might make a misleading statement (again).

Regarding the case of modems, a lot of activation-based protection software compute the machine fingerprint using the MAC address of Ethernet cards (among other things)... Simply disabling an Local Network Connection (without physically removing the PCI card) is detected as a "major hardware change" and invalidate the activation token. Maybe it's the case whit SecuRom, maybe not, who knows?

[Silus]

Hello,

This message is for 2K Elizabeth or any of the moderators.

Could you please make this thread a sticky again ? The original one was for a good reason and there are lots of info in this thread for anyone who want to fully uninstall Bioshock, including SecuROM.

There is also a good discussion, most of the time polite, on SecuROM, what it does, why it's bad or good, what's been wrong in 2K's implementation and communication around this DRM and the activation process.

All those are good reasons to make this thread a sticky, and the fact that most people here disagree with 2K's decisions isn't a valid justification to not make this thread a sticky.

Thank you,
Trexmaster

Forget it Trexmaster. Just like they didn't care about the original thread, they don't care about this one.
We even have a sticky for "not insulting anyone" now. I made a post in "the" thread, about this issue:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227511&postcount=3235

Where I clearly showed some examples of who insults who in here. But still, these people were never banned (and still aren't).

The fact that 2K Elizabeth considers our biggest complaint - install limits - an "older issue" is reason enough to believe that this thread, or any other following it, will NEVER be stickied again.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Forget it Trexmaster. Just like they didn't care about the original thread, they don't care about this one.
We even have a sticky for "not insulting anyone" now. I made a post in "the" thread, about this issue:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227511&postcount=3235

Where I clearly showed some examples of who insults who in here. But still, these people were never banned (and still aren't).

The fact that 2K Elizabeth considers our biggest complaint - install limits - an "older issue" is reason enough to believe that this thread, or any other following it, will NEVER be stickied again.

QFt, and that wonderful new post about "not insulting anyone" includes the statement "PLEASE try and keep this forum orderly and positive", I take that as meaning threads on SecuRom and such that we have here will not be on the forums for long, as they are in 2k's terms, negative posts.

I am still completely in aw about how many of the troublemakers are allowed to continue to post in these forums, breaking every rule with absolutely nothing being done about it, but people such as ourselves are censored, warned, and banned for nothing at all, or a slight bending of maybe one of the rules, or a new rule that is made up just then, so as to justify the action taken against us. There is only one person doing it though, apparently not one single mod sees anything wrong with what we, and others who are banned have posted, or more would be doing something about it no?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are obviously 2 different sets of rules, and which ones you are held to directly depend on your stance in these forums. If you defend 2K, or anyone who works for them, you are allowed to do whatever you wish, but, speak out against 2K's or their employees actions, and you get hit with rules that are made up on the spot to get rid of you.

Either side has a right to be here, especially if you own the game in question, what makes my money different from anyone else's?

[darious]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are obviously 2 different sets of rules, and which ones you are held to directly depend on your stance in these forums. If you defend 2K, or anyone who works for them, you are allowed to do whatever you wish, but, speak out against 2K's or their employees actions, and you get hit with rules that are made up on the spot to get rid of you.

To be fair ever since she earned the nickname Mrs. Bubbles the ban stick seems to have been put away. If you go back a few post you will see where japester had one of his posts edited to have an insult removed.

She screwed up. She was called on it. We won't get an apology or an acknowledgment but at least the rules seem to be more evenly enforced now.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

We won't get an apology or an acknowledgment but at least the rules seem to be more evenly enforced now.


Agreed, but only because everyone is watching now. ;)

[z3razerviper]

I don't consider install limits and older issue. I consider it the PRIMARY issue. That being said where did she say it was an older issue I must have missed that post?

[BloodRayne]

this shouldn't be a problem. major hardware changes are things such as changing your motherboard. a "major hardware change" would be something that you'd need to reinstall your OS. putting in a modem wouldn't change BioShock.

i've said this several times.

So changing a DVD drive is a MAJOR hardware change... since I had to reactivate.... [scratch that] .... reinstall the game from scratch and had to go through the entire 'activation' process again.

[Silus]

To be fair ever since she earned the nickname Mrs. Bubbles the ban stick seems to have been put away. If you go back a few post you will see where japester had one of his posts edited to have an insult removed.

She screwed up. She was called on it. We won't get an apology or an acknowledgment but at least the rules seem to be more evenly enforced now.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

But that's the whole point. We shouldn't tell a moderator/administrator how to run their forum properly. Strangely enough, only people complaining about Bioshock's copy protection measures, were banned, while the "supporters" were insulting everyone that complained, on sight.
It's not a screwup. It was blatant favoritism and everyone that's been here long enough, knows that. Just look at some of the examples I gave in the link above. Those people were NEVER banned, even though they clearly broke the so called "rules" of this forum.

[Silus]

I don't consider install limits and older issue. I consider it the PRIMARY issue. That being said where did she say it was an older issue I must have missed that post?

Right here, in "the" thread:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=223509&postcount=3004

[yogibbear]

But that's the whole point. We shouldn't tell a moderator/administrator how to run their forum properly. Strangely enough, only people complaining about Bioshock's copy protection measures, were banned, while the "supporters" were insulting everyone that complained, on sight.
It's not a screwup. It was blatant favoritism and everyone that's been here long enough, knows that. Just look at some of the examples I gave in the link above. Those people were NEVER banned, even though they clearly broke the so called "rules" of this forum.

only 280 posts to go before we get the activations removed :D... or ourselves removed.

I *still* don't get why 2k are being so quiet even now about this issue. I swear this is the MOST dev uninhabited forum ever.

[darious]

Seems they are trying to set up SecuROM as a universal resource, not a case-by-case software protection system. So deleting it isn't like erasing a program you dislike, it's more like deleting a shared and critical system dll.

I do see the argument in this and I find it valid - up to a point. The issue for me is that 2K installed something I don't want on my system without even informing me about it.

Therefore it is 2K's responsibility to undo their mistake. They need to come out with a program that returns the system to the state it was in prior to their unauthorized install of spyware.

It's 2K's responsibility to undo screwurom. Not Sony, not the end user, but 2K.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[wildquinine]

I swear this is the MOST dev uninhabited forum ever.

Well, Ken Levine used to post here before 2K removed all of his posts.

Maybe he got a ban for trolling, too.

[toto952]

So changing a DVD drive is a MAJOR hardware change... since I had to reactivate.... [scratch that] .... reinstall the game from scratch and had to go through the entire 'activation' process again.
Good to know.
It seems that, once again, Take 2 representatives do not really have a clue about how the "protection" work.
Please:
- remove the activation requirement
or
- publish the comprehensive list of information collected during the fingerprinting process (and I don't care if they are identifiable or not, sent to Securom or not - just tell us what the activation trigger look at when building the machine hash)

[ddave]

Good to know.
It seems that, once again, Take 2 representatives do not really have a clue about how the "protection" work.
Please:
- remove the activation requirement
or
- publish the comprehensive list of information collected during the fingerprinting process (and I don't care if they are identifiable or not, sent to Securom or not - just tell us what the activation trigger look at when building the machine hash)

Hear hear!

I'm afraid to touch the machine in case it triggers a reactivation. At first we were told it would only be caused by a new mobo or a new primary hard disk, in other words things that would require an OS reinstall anyway (assuming a) it's not the same model of mobo or b) you don't try to repair the installation to save time, that is). Now, surprise surprise, a new DVD drive causes it. Anyone feel brave enough to disable their ethernet card to see if that does it as well?

Really, it feels like the machine is not my own any more. There is an inscrutable alien presence watching what I do, and if it doesn't like it, bang! You have -1 activations left. And this for a game?? When I finish BS, once, it will be off my machine in an instant and nothing like it will ever be allowed near it again. I'm close to uninstalling it even before I get to the end. It's disgusting.

[yogibbear]

Well, Ken Levine used to post here before 2K removed all of his posts.

Maybe he got a ban for trolling, too.

Yeah i was happily reading that got to about page 20, and then BAM some moderator deleted the thread. I think i then promptly fell out of my chair. :eek:

[Destop]

Well, Ken Levine used to post here before 2K removed all of his posts.

Maybe he got a ban for trolling, too.

Nah. Forum Moderator 2K Elizabeth accidentally deleted the thread.

I thought the revoke tool was going to take my worries away. Instead, I'm stunned to see that it's basically just an automated version of the "ask our permission to increase activation credits and under certain circumstances, we just might do that" procedure. Oh, and the amount of activation credits you've got left is on a need to know basis only. You don't need to know.

The all new forum rules preach about respect. Well, respect is earned. It's a pity, then, to observe the company behind the forum, the publisher behind the game and now the revoke tool, having virtually no trust in their customers. I wonder how much respect that has, and will earn them.

[immateriaux]

The all new forum rules preach about respect. Well, respect is earned. It's a pity, then, to observe the company behind the forum, the publisher behind the game and now the revoke tool, having virtually no trust in their customers. I wonder how much respect that has, and will earn them.

Funny, that was the first thing that popped into my head too. I've been to many forums, participated at the creation of forums, moderated forums and have high respect for many forum moderators throughout the interwebnet land - not because of their title but through their actions. But here it's a reverse... it's very different when you get wilfully misrepresented, when mods break their own rules even: eg the forum rules that states a breach will you get a warning, then a ban. Or a mod posting, almost slanderously, speculation on why a member was banned. Very hard to maintain respect in such instances really.

And, as you say, it makes it difficult, too, to trust what is being pronounced here as "fixed" or "in development" etc. Or to engage positively with issues. The fact that the revoke tool does not work in the way expected, for example, could have been anticipated while it was still in development had more open-ness been shown in 2K, and and a genuine effort made to communicate with concerned parties.

Oh, and there's no such word as "enclusive" ... ;)

[Hangmn]

So now what?
I have the secuROM folder and registry entries still resident on MY COMPUTER and a load of BS from both 2K and SONYDADC support. There is no way to remove the registry keys according to them, as they are harmless. I beg to differ, they were not there before this abortion was installed, and now I want them off. I could very well reformat my computer..oh wait..that also means vista, as well as a number of other applications I have installed that require hardware fingerprinting (I was informed of this from other vendors and made the CHOICE to install) so between reformat, reinstall and configuration as well as time on the phone with Microsoft to get my box to where it was before BIOSHOCK was installed.
And all this to protect a game that was cracked in 9 days with several versions free for download.

[impar]

Greetings!

Bioshock DRM - poster child of bad* DRM implementation:
The best example of heavy-handed DRM measures is the notorious launch of Bioshock, which involved the controversial SecuROM copy protection software that limits the number of installs. Gamers were incensed that SecuROM prevented them from installing the game on more than two different computers. And even after BioShock publisher 2K Games upped the limit to five activations and corrected the uninstall process, customers were still furious that difficult-to-remove DRM software had been installed on their PCs, which restricted how many times the game could be installed even on the same machine. (http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2007/10/15/fair_play/)

*- Is there good DRM?

[redrain85]

Great article, impar! I applaud Tom's Games for continuing to cover the situation with Bioshock's DRM.


Some other quotes that stand out for me:

In the weeks following BioShock's launch on Aug. 21, 2K Games and BioShock's developer 2K Boston/2K Australia promised to release a "revoke-installation" tool designed to allow BioShock owners to uninstall the game and retain a free installation rather than have one of the five installations be used up. The revoke installation tool did arrive, but not before last week, more than seven weeks after the game's launch. For many PC gamers, it was too little too late.

The FAQ for the revoke on the BioShock community site Cult of Rapture featured a simple question: what if I need to increase my installation? The answer ... may disappoint PC enthusiasts who have a penchant for upgrading and reformatting their machines.

BioShock was distributed via the Steam system. Why couldn't account validation also be done by the same service?

. . . BioShock's botched launch will end up being an inflection point for PC games and DRM

[Destop]

Greetings!

Bioshock DRM - poster child of bad* DRM implementation:
The best example of heavy-handed DRM measures is the notorious launch of Bioshock, which involved the controversial SecuROM copy protection software that limits the number of installs. Gamers were incensed that SecuROM prevented them from installing the game on more than two different computers. And even after BioShock publisher 2K Games upped the limit to five activations and corrected the uninstall process, customers were still furious that difficult-to-remove DRM software had been installed on their PCs, which restricted how many times the game could be installed even on the same machine. (http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2007/10/15/fair_play/)

*- Is there good DRM?

Great link, Impar, thanks! However, there's one quote from the article when it comes to discussing "solutions"...

If MMORPG and FPS games have systems that verify that true customers have access to their game play, why can't single-player games do the same? Think about it this way: yes, companies can understand more about its patrons but shouldn't that help them make better games and ways to serve its customers?

Umm, no way that that argument flies. That's like filling in questionnaires for companies and let them get all the personal info they need for free. Not doing it. Pretty much the reason why I can't use the revoke tool. Information has its price.

[tessieroo]

Hey Guys - still following what's going on over here. I just read that EA is buying BioWare? :(

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/news.html?sid=6180818

Which means to us Simmers that they are gonna continue to use SecuROM (in spite of the massive protests) and like you, we feel they don't give a sh** about their customers or the simming community. :mad: You'll find info for how to contact the FTC on every single simming forum as well as information about the lawyers who filed the class-action against Sony when they tried this crap before. :mad:

http://www.classcounsel.com/news/sonybmg_release.html

[japester]

Great link, Impar! I especially liked this quote about the leaked versions of Doom 3 that were pirated 2 days before official release:
According to a "BBC News" report, more than 50,000 copies of the pirated game were downloaded in one day, which resulted in more than $2.5 million in lost sales.

Wow. So I guess all this talk about how "pirates never buy games so piracy is no loss of revenue" is bunk, eh? That's so cool that you guys have finally come around. I'm very proud of you. :)

This part was also pretty cool:
Under a two-tier system people could get what they want as well as the companies. 2K could keep the current two-system installation quota in place for those who just want to open the box, install and then play.

Oops. I guess the authors aren't very good at doing due diligence. The "current two -system installation quota" doesn't exist any more, does it? They upped it to five simultaneous systems.....when? Was that done a few days ago? Maybe it happened right before Tom's went to press. I have a hard time keeping track of complex events like that. Hmmm. Makes me wonder about the rest of their facts and conclusions if they can't keep the little stuff like that straight.

But I'm sure you guys will figure it out, uncover the pertinent facts and come to an unbiased and fair decision about this complex issue. I doubt you'd merely quote the sections you like and ignore the rest. ;)

[Jakester]

No, it's not bunk unless the Beeb could prove that those 50,000 pirates would have bought the game if a pirated version were not available. Additionally, now that a pirated version is, why does the company insist on punishing those people who wantto give them money, or have given them money but will not tolerate the DRM? That's what I cannot understand.

[z3razerviper]

Great link, Impar! I especially liked this quote about the leaked versions of Doom 3 that were pirated 2 days before official release:

Wow. So I guess all this talk about how "pirates never buy games so piracy is no loss of revenue" is bunk, eh? That's so cool that you guys have finally come around. I'm very proud of you. :)

There is no proof that most of those pirates would have purchased Doom 3. Yes "some" would have but most would not have. However like you I am making an assumption. Neither of our points on this specific item can be proven. It's not something we can argue. We just each have our own belief.

On a different note my belief on securom is its BAD. I understand how the online activation is a stopped some (Very Little) piracy. But in the end I dont think it was worth it all they did was foster a ton of bad blood between themselves and the customers. What I want is a commit date for the removal of the online activation. Thats it. Ken said it would happen and I feel as customers we have a right to know when it will happen.

[japester]

There is no proof that most of those pirates would have purchased Doom 3. Yes "some" would have but most would not have. However like you I am making an assumption. Neither of our points on this specific item can be proven. It's not something we can argue. We just each have our own belief.

What I want is a commit date for the removal of the online activation. Thats it. Ken said it would happen and I feel as customers we have a right to know when it will happen.

(snipped the above)

Good points on both cases. Thanks for being reasonable. Yup, anyone who admits that a lot of this is "he said, she said" gets my respect (as opposed to those who paint in bold, demonizing, unrealistic colors).

I also like that you haven't dismissed Ken's comments. I'm not in as big a hurry (since, like most folks, the whole activation limits issue hasn't impacted me yet and most likely won't), but I look forward to it being lifted. I've never managed to get myself worked up into a frothing frenzy over this because I felt it was a limited-time experiment all along. If, however, they decide never to lift it and my copy of BioShock become invalid 10 years down the road, I officially admit here and now that I will feel sheepish. In 10 years. Count on it. ;)

[Laser Eyes]

Prediction: There will be a mechanism for removing SecuROM and the activation limit. It will be a new BioShock Game of the Year edition that you can buy at retail. That way 2K maximises revenue. They advertise that the GOTY edition is DRM-free to persuade people who bought the original release to buy it again.

Why would 2K release a patch that allows the game to be run without internet activation for free when they can make money out of it? There will never be a patch to make activation unecessary. Trust me on this.

[z3razerviper]

(snipped the above)

Good points on both cases. Thanks for being reasonable. Yup, anyone who admits that a lot of this is "he said, she said" gets my respect (as opposed to those who paint in bold, demonizing, unrealistic colors).

I also like that you haven't dismissed Ken's comments. I'm not in as big a hurry (since, like most folks, the whole activation limits issue hasn't impacted me yet and most likely won't), but I look forward to it being lifted. I've never managed to get myself worked up into a frothing frenzy over this because I felt it was a limited-time experiment all along. If, however, they decide never to lift it and my copy of BioShock become invalid 10 years down the road, I officially admit here and now that I will feel sheepish. In 10 years. Count on it. ;)

I don't know if I can give them 10 years for me the upper limit is 6 months. I will however commit to not buying another one of their games until they do lift the limit. I guess its my own personal little protest. I hope they learned their lesson for the next game.

Laser Eyes I hope you are not right that would really annoy me.

[Destop]

Prediction: There will be a mechanism for removing SecuROM and the activation limit. It will be a new BioShock Game of the Year edition that you can buy at retail. That way 2K maximises revenue. They advertise that the GOTY edition is DRM-free to persuade people who bought the original release to buy it again.

Why would 2K release a patch that allows the game to be run without internet activation for free when they can make money out of it? There will never be a patch to make activation unecessary. Trust me on this.

Mmyes, but at that time, it won't persuade me, I'm afraid. When you have been misled by someone, you don't buy something new from that someone unless the trust is restored. And that can take a jolly little while.

However, it might very well persuade the group of people who put off buying Bioshock PC because of the whole DRM thing, and then finally get the version everyone should have had from the beginning, i.e. without limited activation credits and no SecuRom fussy fuss fuss at uninstall. At a reduced price, because Bioshock won't be a hot biscuit anymore.

Sure. They could make money out of it via this strategy, but it's something a company could only do once. If they would try to pull that off again, they wouldn't be able to play the innocence card since they'd have to plead guilty for the in-house precedent. Of course, they could try and hope enough people have short-term memories. Works pretty well in politics, I heard.

[BloodRayne]

Nice to see all these arguments for or against DRM. But they are all moot. The only real argument is this:

I am a paying customer, I was not informed that this rootkit-like software was going to be installed prior to installing the game. I am angry about this.

THAT is the only point here. I don't CARE that companies use DRM. It's their right, I CARE that they did not inform me prior to installing.

I wish people would understand this..

[Destop]

Nice to see all these arguments for or against DRM. But they are all moot. The only real argument is this:

I am a paying customer, I was not informed that this rootkit-like software was going to be installed prior to installing the game. I am angry about this.

THAT is the only point here. I don't CARE that companies use DRM. It's their right, I CARE that they did not inform me prior to installing.

I wish people would understand this..

I fully understand it - it's the same, main problem I have. And, I think, of all the people still posting here. But I cannot repeat it too much because that (a) attracts people who insist nothing is wrogn to this thread and (b) attracts moderators who will deem this to be spammish, etc. to this thread.

And thus, because spamming is bad, we begin to discuss why companies came to this kind of insane DRM, whether or not a less intrusive DRM or no DRM is better for customer and company, what an acceptable "fix" would be for the DRM on Bioshock PC, and so on.

I'm sure some college kid is loving this, doing research on and writing a thesis about it as we speak, or maybe even a doctorate =). Heck, if I were in comp. science, I'd get started on it right away. The industry - and the customer - needs well-researched, acceptable DRM solutions, so there's definitely money to be made.

[Silus]

Thread keeps growing. It's already one of the largest. But wait, why is that ? This is an "older issue", so why are people still posting their "remaining" issues ? :rolleyes:

I'll explain:

1) There is no solution for the fact that this draconian DRM, is not explained anywhere in the box or EULA. That means YOUR customers are not being told everything, which equates to a LIE. Of course in a forum where "rules" are applied according to the person's stance on a certain subject., I'm sure eufemisms are a must and so, it's not a LIE, but rather a "unfortunate lack of ink".

2) The revoke tool disguised your biggest LIE, which was the fact that a person could retrieve an install credit, by uninstalling the game, but since it doesn't work as it should, the problem remains.
The lack of a way to check the amount of install credits we have left, is laughable. After such measures being implemented and not even mentioned (read point 1), do you really expect us to trust you, with this ? "The revoke tool works" is hardly a statement, that redeems you in our eyes.

You already said that SecuROM is not going away, so at least we have some definite statement on that, so I won't mention it again, but our biggest concern, was always related to install limits, of which we NEVER received any final statement. They either go away, or they stay. Shouldn't be too hard to answer this. The revoke tool is nothing more than a thin band-aid, as someone else called it, which does not heal the wound, if you don't mind my analogy.

[trexmaster]

Frankly, I don't even care anymore, because 2K lost all my trust, for the following reasons :
- Installing software (SecuROM) without proper warning prior to purchase is simply illegal.
- Installing software (SecuROM) without providing a way to correctly uninstall it is illegal too.
- Limiting how I can use a software I bought without proper warning prior to purchase is illegal too.
- Producing a "revoke tool" that removes only 1 activation out of 5 possible (if you have 5 different accounts on the same PC, which is quite likely in a family) just shows how much 2K concerns themselves with their customers' problems (i.e. they don't give a damn).
- Requiring an Internet connection to install a game that you play offline is a stupid move that only angers me.
- Lying to the customers by telling that uninstalling the game effectively recreditates your "account" with one activation when it doesn't, could be called "false adversitement", which is a crime too.

Basically treating your customers like they're potential thieves just destroys whatever trust you could have built with them instead.

So my answer to 2K's decision to cross what's for me red line is :
If you're going to treat me like a thief, fine ! I'm going to act like one !

[matches81]

@japester:
Some people care about stuff that does not immediately affect them. The main issues many people have with Bioshock's DRM are that
- this implementation is clearly illegal (customers not notified about installed 3rd party software and the 3rd party software is not removed upon uninstalling the main program and in fact cannot be removed in a way that is suitable for a casual user)
- the limited activation credits were not mentioned anywhere, so the customer was stripped of the option to disagree with this "license term" that is not even mentioned in the license the customers were given in the manual
- 2K insists on pursuing these practices while a successfully cracked version that exists for 7 weeks now completely invalidates its purpose

If you don't care that companies like 2K violate your rights as a customer, that's your problem. But I just can't understand how you can look down on people who care for their rights, no matter how emotional they try to get their point through. There are valid issues with 2K's proceedings. Just because some guys get emotional about them doesn't make them invalid.

PS:
The sad thing is: Many people think about this like you. "It doesn't affect me now, so why bother?" This might just lead to more companies releasing games in a manner similar to Bioshock. And if 5 activation credits are okay, why not lower that limit to one or two again and ignore the customers' reactions this time.
Perhaps you will care when you're told you have to run a revoke tool for 10 games before you're allowed to format your hard disc or you'll have to call 10 companies to get more activation credits.
You'll probably disregard this idea as painting in "bold, demonizing, unrealistic colors", although it is a not completely unrealistic possibility if 2K gets through with this.

[Silus]

Frankly, I don't even care anymore, because 2K lost all my trust

I don't trust them either, which is why I'm asking for a way to check how many install credits we have left, after using the revoke tool.
"The revoke tool works" as was said by 2K Elizabeth, is simply not enough, mainly because of the trust aspect. I can't trust a company that already lied to me several times, on very important issues.

And I DO care about this, because being like japester or any other "nothing is wrong" character, will only make things worse, because NOT complaining about such measures, will just get them accepted by 2K and other companies that follow. And so, future games will by the same or worse, in terms of DRM and non-disclosure of important info. As a regular buyer of games, which I enjoy playing as a means of entertainment, I can't accept that and IMHO, no one should.

[BloodRayne]

PS:
The sad thing is: Many people think about this like you. "It doesn't affect me now, so why bother?" This might just lead to more companies releasing games in a manner similar to Bioshock. And if 5 activation credits are okay, why not lower that limit to one or two again and ignore the customers' reactions this time.
Perhaps you will care when you're told you have to run a revoke tool for 10 games before you're allowed to format your hard disc or you'll have to call 10 companies to get more activation credits.
You'll probably disregard this idea as painting in "bold, demonizing, unrealistic colors", although it is a not completely unrealistic possibility if 2K gets through with this.
Just three years ago I prophesized software like Securom being installed without any warning. People said I was painting the future in "bold, demonizing, unrealistic colors". Look where we are now..

Again, I don't care about the fact that securom is being used. I care about not being given the choice before installing that malware onto my PC.

But it's pretty simply for 2k, they only need to do 2 things:

- Apologize for the inconveniance (which is one simple little newsitem on the main website.. not a stupid post in these far away hidden fora's).
- Release an uninstalltool to uninstall securom.

It's not that frikkin' hard.

[trexmaster]

- Release an uninstalltool to uninstall securom.

It's not that frikkin' hard.

The problem is that SecuROM doesn't create a new instance for each software it protects, but rather updates and reuses previous instances (in case they exist) and mixes up every data about every software protected so that it effectively is very hard to uninstall just the necessary portion of SecuROM.

For example, if you have Bioshock and C&C3 installed on your comp but you want to uninstall one of the two games, SecuROM remains behind because it's too damn hard to just go into the licenses files and the registry to remove just the relevant portions (well, cleaning the registry in the uninstall process isn't a problem restricted to SecuROM, a lot of other software also doesn't do that when you uninstall them).

And if you try and remove it by hand, following the different guides available on the net, you might just break SecuROM and become unable to use the software you kept installed.

The only effective way to safely uninstall SecuROM when you remove a game is to restore a full backup of your system disk made prior to installing the game, which is pretty hard to anticipate if you're just Average Joe (I'm not even sure that many users know that Windows comes with that capability).

That's what I call deffective by design.

[BloodRayne]

The problem is that SecuROM doesn't create a new instance for each software it protects, but rather updates and reuses previous instances (in case they exist) and mixes up every data about every software protected so that it effectively is very hard to uninstall just the necessary portion of SecuROM.

For example, if you have Bioshock and C&C3 installed on your comp but you want to uninstall one of the two games, SecuROM remains behind because it's too damn hard to just go into the licenses files and the registry to remove just the relevant portions (well, cleaning the registry in the uninstall process isn't a problem restricted to SecuROM, a lot of other software also doesn't do that when you uninstall them).

And if you try and remove it by hand, following the different guides available on the net, you might just break SecuROM and become unable to use the software you kept installed.

The only effective way to safely uninstall SecuROM when you remove a game is to restore a full backup of your system disk made prior to installing the game, which is pretty hard to anticipate if you're just Average Joe (I'm not even sure that many users know that Windows comes with that capability).

That's what I call deffective by design.
For me this is no issue at all since I, by design, normally do not buy or run any software that uses securom, for exactly the reasons you described above.

2k: It's called choice, a right that we as customers have fought for, for many hundreds of years.

I already gave up on trying to play the game (it just doesn't work because the software is flawed, period). Now all I want is a clean system again. Is that too much to ask for 60 euros? I don't even ask anymore that the game will run (I don't see how I will have any fun with after all of this). All I want is a clean system again.

Atleast provide an uninstall for those that simply don't want any trace of securom on their computer! We, the customers, demand it!

[HiViH]

A few weeks ago my computer got trashed and I sent it to repairs, Bioshock was installed, they reformated the computer and it was deleted, now that revoke tool detectes nothing to.. revoke.. have I lost an activation ?

If so FFS >___> I'l take a godamn pic of the me holding pc box with my nick on it but even if I have 4 more this is absured and I will let even one go for such a redicules.. machanic.. stupid.. activation crap D;

[Destop]

Atleast provide an uninstall for those that simply don't want any trace of securom on their computer! We, the customers, demand it!

From the Forum Moderator:

3. we will not be releasing a generic SecuROM uninstaller, however, SecuROM can help you uninstall any remaining pieces if you wish. the pieces left behind, if deleted manually, may interfere with other games on your system that also use SecuROM.

It's not the answer we'd like to see, but that's the answer. trexmaster is right: SecuRom is defective by design. Which makes me wonder why software companies would buy software from other software companies which has been shown to be defective by design (the "SecuRom stays Behind" feature is part of all the previous SecuRom versions, I believe). But that's a why-question, of course, so consider it rhetorical by all means and purposes.

[BloodRayne]

It's not the answer we'd like to see, but that's the answer. trexmaster is right: SecuRom is defective by design. Which makes me wonder why software companies would buy software from other software companies which has been shown to be defective by design (the "SecuRom stays Behind" feature is part of all the previous SecuRom versions, I believe). But that's a why-question, of course, so consider it rhetorical by all means and purposes.

'Other games' are not an issue for me. I demand an uninstaller, it's a completely normal demand to make from the people that infected my computer with it, without prior knowledge or agreement.

2k broke something in my PC.
2k needs to fix it.

There is no room for discussion, it's plain and simple. I bought a defective piece of software. This is the last post I make here trying to get any kind of feedback on this from 2k. The next step is legal action.

[BloodRayne]

I have just filed a complained at the European Comisison of Consumer Rights. This is the last post I make on this forum about this matter, it is out of my hands now.

[BloodRayne]

After finding myself increasingly angered by this whole ordeal I have just succesfully claimed my money back, including 50 euros in damages, from the dutch distributor.

They have acknowledged the product as faulty due to the covert installation of securom and awarded me 50 euros in damages for having to reinstall my computer because securom cannot be removed in any ordinary way from my computer.

I just wanted to let anybody else here that is struggling with securom issues that there is hope, it's not David against Goliath because you do have rights.

You can go to your local supplier where you bought your copy and show them the box, EULA and original receipt and you can claim this product as 'faulty' due to the covert installation of securom. Eventhough the product itself might run fine and does what it promised it will. It's covert operations can be perceived as damage to the system, as it was in my case.

I hereby am no long a customer of 2k and any money invested in 2k has been returned to me (or will be shortly).

2k: Thanks, I'm out of here.. never to return as customer again so long as you distribute rootkits with your software.

Bye bye!

[Destop]

After finding myself increasingly angered by this whole ordeal I have just succesfully claimed my money back, including 50 euros in damages, from the dutch distributor.

They have acknowledged the product as faulty due to the covert installation of securom and awarded me 50 euros in damages for having to reinstall my computer because securom cannot be removed in any ordinary way from my computer.

I just wanted to let anybody else here that is struggling with securom issues that there is hope, it's not David against Goliath because you do have rights.

You can go to your local supplier where you bought your copy and show them the box, EULA and original receipt and you can claim this product as 'faulty' due to the covert installation of securom. Eventhough the product itself might run fine and does what it promised it will. It's covert operations can be perceived as damage to the system, as it was in my case.

I hereby am no long a customer of 2k and any money invested in 2k has been returned to me (or will be shortly).

2k: Thanks, I'm out of here.. never to return as customer again so long as you distribute rootkits with your software.

Bye bye!

Hou je haaks, Bloodrayne =)

You did the right thing. I'm contemplating to do the same (just found my Bioshock receipt stuck between some game boxes, knock on wood), but part of me wants to keep it as a memento, so I'll never forget just how low a company can sink.

[darious]

Hou je haaks, Bloodrayne =)

You did the right thing. I'm contemplating to do the same (just found my Bioshock receipt stuck between some game boxes, knock on wood), but part of me wants to keep it as a memento, so I'll never forget just how low a company can sink.

Well, you could always keep a photocopy of your receipt, back of box and installation media as if you were attempting to reactivate your rentals. :)

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 2
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[immateriaux]

Nice to see all these arguments for or against DRM. But they are all moot. The only real argument is this:

I am a paying customer, I was not informed that this rootkit-like software was going to be installed prior to installing the game. I am angry about this.

THAT is the only point here. I don't CARE that companies use DRM. It's their right, I CARE that they did not inform me prior to installing.

I wish people would understand this..

It's never really been addressed this, on the 2K side.

We've had talk of increasing activations, talk of how to remove securom (by going off to their site etc), talk of banning people, talk of revoke tools, talk of closing threads, talk of tech support calls ... and so on. I don't think anyone ever from 2K has acknowledged that a mistake was made at the offset by not providing any information to the potential customer on the measures being taken?

The lack of acknowledgement of that mistake contributes considerably to the lack of respect that 2K is currently held in.

[ddave]

The lack of acknowledgement of that mistake contributes considerably to the lack of respect that 2K is currently held in.

You're right, but I suspect a gaggle of lawyers has put...a gagging order on their saying anything. This is the most obvious legal vulnerability from what I've gathered, so ceding it straight away might not be a good idea from their perspective.

Not that that seems to have stopped BloodRayne. It's a bad day for a publisher when a customer is glad to say this, but 'result!' I hope it spreads.

[tessieroo]

I have just filed a complained at the European Comisison of Consumer Rights.

The Sims 2 community is actively filing complaints with the FTC, the BBB and their local state Attorney General. Also, this information was found which might be helpful? This is the law firm who originally handled the FTC settlement against Sony and the whole DRM issue. They might be interested to know Sony is at it again. :mad:

http://www.classcounsel.com/news/sonybmg_release.html

To the left side, click on "Report A Problem" and make sure you mention SONY and DRM's. They claim to respond to all communications. :D

[HiViH]

A few weeks ago my computer got trashed and I sent it to repairs, Bioshock was installed, they reformated the computer and it was deleted, now that revoke tool detectes nothing to.. revoke.. have I lost an activation ?

If so FFS >___> I'l take a godamn pic of the me holding pc box with my nick on it but even if I have 4 more this is absured and I will let even one go for such a redicules.. machanic.. stupid.. activation crap D;

[2K Elizabeth]

A few weeks ago my computer got trashed and I sent it to repairs, Bioshock was installed, they reformated the computer and it was deleted, now that revoke tool detectes nothing to.. revoke.. have I lost an activation ?

If so FFS >___> I'l take a godamn pic of the me holding pc box with my nick on it but even if I have 4 more this is absured and I will let even one go for such a redicules.. machanic.. stupid.. activation crap D;

please don't post duplicate posts in many threads, it's spammish.

however, yes, if your computer has been revamped and the installation is gone, you cannot revoke it. if you do need more in the future (after the 4 you have left) contact support in your manual!

[Hangmn]

I am not understanding why this is not stickied. This is quite an important topic and should be required reading to all people researching this title. There is no disclosure on this title's retail packaging about the limited activation scheme, nor the stealth install of SonyDADC's SecuROM software. So wouldn't this kind of count as disclosure? It sure might help when/if a class action lawsuit ever gets started.

[BioShockWins]

please don't post duplicate posts in many threads, it's spammish.

however, yes, if your computer has been revamped and the installation is gone, you cannot revoke it. if you do need more in the future (after the 4 you have left) contact support in your manual!

My bad. I tried to merge the threads.
Didn't mean for it to look bad on his part.

[2K Elizabeth]

I am not understanding why this is not stickied. This is quite an important topic and should be required reading to all people researching this title. There is no disclosure on this title's retail packaging about the limited activation scheme, nor the stealth install of SonyDADC's SecuROM software. So wouldn't this kind of count as disclosure? It sure might help when/if a class action lawsuit ever gets started.

well, we actually have 2 threads on this issue (one about more recent news, the revoke tool concerning activations) and that one IS stickied. i'm just keeping this here because... well. it makes people happier.

[Hangmn]

well, we actually have 2 threads on this issue (one about more recent news, the revoke tool concerning activations) and that one IS stickied. i'm just keeping this here because... well. it makes people happier.

I am not concerned about the revoke tool, I am concerned about this illegal installation and illegal modification of my Operating System. The thread, although seems to be drawing out the worst in people as per your rules of double posting, divulging that which 2K chose not to etc...needs to be stickied. Until you tell us to go pound sand you got what you paid for (albeit unknowingly) or we are sorry we are sorry we broke the law of almost every free country on the planet and we will offer up a DRM free version for free to everyone that can prove they bought the original illeagal version. So give us either answers or sticky this please

[Hangmn]

God i would love an edit button, I ain't the best typer out here

[BioShockWins]

Call me crazy.
But I think the want for an edit button, is widely known.