Remaining SecuROM/Activation talk here.

[yogibbear]

I was i was ignorant too... :cool:

That was meant to read "i wish i was..."***

Teeheee... :D

[jd10013]

Greetings!Thats why I built it and installed every single software. Its called a Personal Computer.

and youv'e never added to it? don't get online? Its always been my understanding that "crap" just accumulates on you HDD. coookies, bits and pieces of uninstalled programs and so forth.

Sure, I can see the objections to it. As you said, It's your computer. But from my limited knowldge of computers the securom stuff doesn't sound like anything major, or new.

Again, I can understand the principald objections to it, but the sentiment of some seems a tad bit overblown.

[impar]

Greetings!and youv'e never added to it? don't get online? Its always been my understanding that "crap" just accumulates on you HDD. coookies, bits and pieces of uninstalled programs and so forth.Pretty much nothing gets installed here without my knowledge/authorization.
Comodo warns me of every suspected installation attempt and even harmful cookies only get installed here once, there are tweaks to Firefox that forbid deleted cookies to be installed a second time.

I guess the level of discontent to this 2K/Securom esqueme is proportional to the PC knowledge of the person.

[jd10013]

well, I still don't get it. Its a small bit of software that doesn't really do anything, and for a majority of people is just one of probably thousands of similar little bits of code on their machines that are also there.

And like I said, I can see people being upset they weren't told about it, and now can't remove it. But they way some people here and over at the TTLG forums talk about it seems a bit overblown. reading some of the posts you'd almost think they slipped a trojan on there that transmits all their personal data to every computer on the internet. More drama than anything else in my opinion.

But anyhow, I get what your saying.

[riboflavin]

Well it has potential to be exploited. There is precedent with other DRM for it to be exploited by trojans. Which makes me extra upset for the lack of notification.


http://www.topix.net/business/media/2007/11/macrovision-update-plugs-zero-day-drm-exploit

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/13/drm_trojan/

http://www.geek.com/exploit-found-in-new-sony-drm?rfp=dta

http://www.r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=535

[Silus]

I still don't see what all the fuss is about. sure, its putting stuff on your computer without your knowing and can't be removed. But, I'm pretty sure that's nothing new. I'm betting there's a lot of crap on my computer that I don't know about and probably can't be removed either. I usually do a complete reinstall of my HD every year or two for that reason. From my own personal experience, and what I've looked up on the net, this Securom stuff doesn't seem to do any harm, and is just there to cut back on the rampant piracy and sharring that goes on. Guess I must be missing something. ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Then you really don't know what it does, otherwise you would be pissed too. SecuROM enforces install limits, in Bioshock. That means that, since you reinstall everything, in a year or two, you will lose your install credits really fast. So your Bioshock copy will be absolete, in no time. You do have the half-baked Revoke Tool, that doesn't work for multi-user accounts and there's also the possibility to call support and beg for more credits (the support number is not available for every country, so be prepared for a large phone bill), but should the PAYING customers, really be forced to do this, with a gme they payed for ?
We submit that they shouldn't and yes, ignorance is bliss and you proved that nicely, since you don't understand the fuss, because you simply didn't know what these measures actually do.

[japester]

Then you really don't know what it does, otherwise you would be pissed too. SecuROM enforces install limits, in Bioshock. That means that, since you reinstall everything, in a year or two, you will lose your install credits really fast. So your Bioshock copy will be absolete, in no time. You do have the half-baked Revoke Tool, that doesn't work for multi-user accounts and there's also the possibility to call support and beg for more credits (the support number is not available for every country, so be prepared for a large phone bill), but should the PAYING customers, really be forced to do this, with a gme they payed for ?
We submit that they shouldn't and yes, ignorance is bliss and you proved that nicely, since you don't understand the fuss, because you simply didn't know what these measures actually do.

People might be more compassionate towards your argument if you left out all the needless (and sometime erroneous) negative spin, Silus. For example, calling the Revoke Tool "half-baked" because it doesn't work in one specific instance (which 2K said they are working on remedying). Plus, saying that someone will lose their install credits "really fast" in a timeframe of a "year or two"(???).

Finally, the part about having to "beg" for more credits while running up a large phone bill is false. I've asked in the past if anyone making such claims is speaking from actual experience, but nobody came forward. Again, this sounds like pure spin to demonize your enemy (2K). The process, as we've discussed in the past, actually involves sending a photo of your official materials via e-mail. The following is a direct quote from the Revoke Tool FAQ:

If you have exceeded your activation limits and are unable to revoke previously used activations with the revoke tool, you may request to have your activations increased.

To have you activations increased, please send an email with your activation key and unlock code to support@securom.com including if possible a scan/photo of your manual cover (front & back) with the activation key clearly visible and of the BioShock DVD, as this will help speed up the process.

They also state that most limit increases are completed within 48 hours. Typically, when demonizing 2K, this part is misquoted as "you will have to wait at least 2 days for a response!" But that was not included in your post. I am including it here purely for future reference.

If you can stick to the facts, and avoid embellishment and emotion, you'll likely find more support and more traction.

(Since I am correcting clearly erroneous info about SecuROM and activation limit procedures, I hope we can avoid the chorus of "Your posts are useless!", "You don't contribute anything!", "Why do you post here if you don't have a problem!?" replies. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't contributing to a thread. And if anyone thinks this particular post is spam--when it clearly provides a correction to false info--then perhaps you should be asking yourself why I need to repeatedly post the same corrections.......)

[riboflavin]

hey jape,
What about my concerns...see previous post.

As far as activating goes I think the activation thing wasn't well thought out or tested but 2k is trying to make it right without admitting wrongdoing, I assume for legal reasons. I think the intention is good but the implementation is poor.

[impar]

Greetings!Plus, saying that someone will lose their install credits "really fast" in a timeframe of a "year or two"(???).It can happen easily.
May 2006, motherboard corrupts Windows installation, re-installed Windows.
June 2006, another Windows corruption, made a major system overhaul, re-installed Windows.
January 2007, changed motherboard and CPU, re-installed Windows.
September 2007, changed motherboard, CPU, hard-drive, re-installed Windows.
...

[Silus]

People might be more compassionate towards your argument if you left out all the needless (and sometime erroneous) negative spin, Silus. For example, calling the Revoke Tool "half-baked" because it doesn't work in one specific instance (which 2K said they are working on remedying). Plus, saying that someone will lose their install credits "really fast" in a timeframe of a "year or two"(???).

Finally, the part about having to "beg" for more credits while running up a large phone bill is false. I've asked in the past if anyone making such claims is speaking from actual experience, but nobody came forward. Again, this sounds like pure spin to demonize your enemy (2K). The process, as we've discussed in the past, actually involves sending a photo of your official materials via e-mail. The following is a direct quote from the Revoke Tool FAQ:

If you have exceeded your activation limits and are unable to revoke previously used activations with the revoke tool, you may request to have your activations increased.

To have you activations increased, please send an email with your activation key and unlock code to support@securom.com including if possible a scan/photo of your manual cover (front & back) with the activation key clearly visible and of the BioShock DVD, as this will help speed up the process.

They also state that most limit increases are completed within 48 hours. Typically, when demonizing 2K, this part is misquoted as "you will have to wait at least 2 days for a response!" But that was not included in your post. I am including it here purely for future reference.

If you can stick to the facts, and avoid embellishment and emotion, you'll likely find more support and more traction.

(Since I am correcting clearly erroneous info about SecuROM and activation limit procedures, I hope we can avoid the chorus of "Your posts are useless!", "You don't contribute anything!", "Why do you post here if you don't have a problem!?" replies. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't contributing to a thread. And if anyone thinks this particular post is spam--when it clearly provides a correction to false info--then perhaps you should be asking yourself why I need to repeatedly post the same corrections.......)

I didn't post any false info. Please stop with your "nothing is wrong" speech, doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of (posting false info).
If you remember correctly, the "Your brother can't play for free" thing, is one of (if not) the BIGGEST problem, in what install limits are concerned. Since this revoke tool doesn't do it, it's half-baked, incomplete, whatever you want to call it.

About the phone number, it is a FACT that there is no local or regional 2K office, in every country, so in some of them you will be charged for international fees (which are NOT cheap), if indeed you do not e-mail them. But yes, you also have the e-mail to resort to (don't forget the digital camera...). Thanks for pointing it out.

There was no embellishment, but obviously there is emotion involved, especially when we have thousands of replies, related to the same issues and we are practically the same we were, almost 3 months ago. And you are proof enough of that, but you have changed from 2-3 months ago. 2-3 months ago, everything was peachy, but a while back, you started to have "some concerns". Some people just need more time, to realize when their rights, are being attacked or simply ignored...

[jd10013]

Greetings!It can happen easily.
May 2006, motherboard corrupts Windows installation, re-installed Windows.
June 2006, another Windows corruption, made a major system overhaul, re-installed Windows.
January 2007, changed motherboard and CPU, re-installed Windows.
September 2007, changed motherboard, CPU, hard-drive, re-installed Windows.
...

I wouldn't call that easy. I'm on my 5th pc now and have never had so many issues in such a short time period.

Possible? yes. Probable? no

[Silus]

I wouldn't call that easy. I'm on my 5th pc now and have never had so many issues in such a short time period.

Possible? yes. Probable? no

I'll try to explain it this way. Bioshock's install credits work per hardware fingerprint, per OS install and per user. If you change any of that and then play the game, there goes one install credit. If that's acceptable to you, from a game you bought, then more power to you.
Not to mention the fact that there's no mention of SecuROM or install limits, on the box or EULA and that we were lied to, about uninstalling the game and getting a install credit back...
There's also the horrible forum moderation, but I can't show you everything, since threads were deleted and users were banned...

Most of us, in these threads, are definitely NOT ok with any of this.

[jd10013]

I'll try to explain it this way. Bioshock's install credits work per hardware fingerprint, per OS install and per user. If you change any of that and then play the game, there goes one install credit. If that's acceptable to you, from a game you bought, then more power to you.

I'm fine with that. I unerstand how it works. Unless I'm mistaken, it's the same thing MS has been doing for awhile now. 5 installations credits and a revoke tool are enough for me. in 5 to 10 years I doubt I'll still be playing this game, or that it will even be worth the trouble of making it work on whatever system I have in 10 yrs.

Not to mention the fact that there's no mention of SecuROM or install limits, on the box or EULA and that we were lied to, about uninstalling the game and getting a install credit back...

this, as I've said before, I agree with you on. just as they have a right to package what they want on their game, the consumer has a right to know what is being installed on their PC. How hard would it have been to put that on the box, or in the EULA?


There's also the horrible forum moderation, but I can't show you everything, since threads were deleted and users were banned....

again, not going to argue with you there. I don't play a lot of games (very specific tastes:D ) but I have played my share. And I always spend time at the companies MB of every game I've played. I've got to admit, never seen anything quite like this. Even when the Ion forums melted down after the IW demo they never got heavy handed over there.

[Silus]

I'm fine with that. I unerstand how it works. Unless I'm mistaken, it's the same thing MS has been doing for awhile now. 5 installations credits and a revoke tool are enough for me. in 5 to 10 years I doubt I'll still be playing this game, or that it will even be worth the trouble of making it work on whatever system I have in 10 yrs.

Yes, it's similar to what MS does, but MS does it to an OS. Bioshock is just a game...
If you have no problems with it, then fine, but IMO, these are far too restrictive measures, for a game, especially considering this is just a single player experience, yet its copy protection measures, rival with full blown Operative Systems.

[Terror from the Deep]

Hello!

I'm going to upgrade my RAM from 1 GB to 2 GB, therefore I have to change all four 256 MB DIMMs currently installed. Will I have to use the revoke tool prior to this operation, does changing the main memory (which indeed is a main hardware component) affect the Bioshock activation?
Are there still problems with the revoke tool?

Thanks for an answer!

[immateriaux]

I still don't see what all the fuss is about. sure, its putting stuff on your computer without your knowing and can't be removed. But, I'm pretty sure that's nothing new.

I find that to be a really odd sentiment. It translates to the concept: I'm sure someone once poked me in the eye therefore, it is perfectly fine for people to continually poke me in the eye.

If people roll over and accept this extra restrictive protection that was introduced with Bioshock, and which never was used with a game before, then of course it will occur again. But does that make it right? Or mean people should not voice concerns?

Remember, 2K originally tried to leave the game with just two activations. These activations were per user account and the game needs an admin account to be installed. So, from the outset, if you typically have your user account on your PC and your Admin account, then that was it, all activations used up. If anything went wrong and you needed to reinstall the game, you would have to send a photocopy of the game disk, manual or whatever to 2K and wait for a reply to have the activations reset. It was only people complaining that got this changed.

Now there is five activations allowed but again it is per user account. And a revoke tool has been fumbled together. The revoke tool does not actually work per user account though, it will disable just one activation and leave the rest on the PC not deactivated. eg I read someone who posted earlier explaining that they were in a shared apartment with just one PC and it had several user accounts on it - say three for example (I forget the story exactly). If they installed Bioshock on admin account and played it with each user in the apartment, they have used up four activations. If they hit a problem and need to reinstall, they get just one back. So they've used up three now even after "revoking" the activations. Now they cannot re-install the game and play as before without getting in touch with support - by phone this may require making an international call (it would for me). It can take 48 hours to deal with your query. And why are you being put through all that?

And note - no-one has told you/him about any of this - it's not mentioned in the manual, in the EULA, during install etc etc. I only found out about it all due to having an unrelated technical problem with the game and visiting the forum.

And this doesn't even raise the fact that there is undelete-able files on your PC that, again, no-one let you know about and which could give rise to security vulnerabilities in the future.

Anyhow, I think most would have gone off and played some other game rather than wait 48 hours to simply play a game you've paid for? "The Witcher", for example, is an excellent game which has a far more fair, transparent and less intrusive copy protection system. That game of game is the kind of future we should be rooting for, not apathetically acquiescing to 2K's new "game hire" type model.

[jd10013]

^
The thing is, I don't see anything malicious, damaging, destructive, or even noticiable resulting from that shell extension. I guess what I was saying is, off all the things that sneak their way onto the averager pc, this has to be the most benign out there. If securom were tracking, recording or sending info I'd probably feel differently. but to me, its just the dev's/publishers trying to protect thier intellectual property.

with all the "drama" going on about it, I thought it was something serious. something that would damage your PC, maybe sending info to 2k or something. almost virus like. having played the game now, and looking up some info online about securom, all I can say is ...pfffff.

the only complaining about it that really makes sense to me is the whole principal of the thing. I get that. We should have deffinitly been told. But the actual software itself doesn't seem like so big a deal to me.

IMOH, they made 2 mistakes. 1. not telling people securom would be installed, and 2. only 2 activations.
#2 has already been corrected though.

[redrain85]

As far as activating goes I think the activation thing wasn't well thought out or tested but 2k is trying to make it right without admitting wrongdoing, I assume for legal reasons.
I think you nailed it right there, why 2K is not apologizing and keeping silent. Aside from arrogance, 2K is quietly fixing problems and not admitting to them: because if they did they'd open themselves up to legal action. So rather than admit their mistakes, they are stonewalling and then surreptitiously doing the minimum to fix what they can. Short of doing a recall.

[matches81]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that there are still people who don't see anything wrong with this activation credit bull****. 2K doesn't mention any of this anywhere except you go to the forums, perhaps because you can't install Bioshock anymore just because of this crap.
So, basically the customer is going out and buys a game. Deducting from common practice with every other game he thinks he can install that game as often as he wants to. Let's say he installs the game, finds it won't run, does some driver house-keeping, and reinstalls the game again, not a completely irrational thing. Taking into account MS advises to use a non-admin account for everything else than installing and we assume our John Doe follows that advice he will have used up four activation credits by now, because he used two activations in the first run, uninstalled the game, getting no credits back, because he didn't know about them and reinstalled it, again using 2 credits.

So far the procedere doesn't contain anything special. Sure, our John Doe could have checked the forum first thing when the game wouldn't run, but he's not obliged to do so.
Assuming the game still doesn't run, he might now choose to check the forums to look for help and / or for a patch. Seeing that the only clue about activation credits in the stickies is the "Activation revoke tool" thread he might even not know about activation credits after visiting the forum to solve his problems.
Assuming his problems are solved here, he now goes on to play the game. After that he uninstalls the game and puts in on the shelf, perhaps again without using the revoke tool, leaving him with _1_ activation credit left. Now, if he chooses to reinstall the game in a year or two and play it again he'll run head-first into that activation credit crap that has not even been announced to him.

And there are guys that are fine with that here?
You're seriously fine with that stuff getting common practice? That you have to download a revoke tool and run it for each of let's say 4 or 5 games prior to reinstalling your system or eventually contacting customer support to be allowed to continue to play a game you bought?
I'm sorry, but I'm not fine with that. Especially seeing that this crap has no effect whatsoever on piracy. In the end I'm better off playing a cracked copy of the game and that just can't be the point of a sensible copy protection scheme.

I can understand that there are people that aren't bothered that much about the unannounced installation of SecuROM or even the inability to uninstall it. Still, unannounced installation of software that can't be uninstalled is illegal. Period. Simply because it is behaviour normally seen in malware. It might not bother you, but that doesn't change that fact.

[ddave]

^
The thing is, I don't see anything malicious, damaging, destructive, or even noticiable resulting from that shell extension. [...]

with all the "drama" going on about it, I thought it was something serious. something that would damage your PC, maybe sending info to 2k or something. almost virus like. having played the game now, and looking up some info online about securom, all I can say is ...pfffff.


There have been reports here that it does send encrypted data back to the server regularly. Or was that on The Big Thread? Not sure now, this has been going on so long.

Anyone?

Hellgate: London definitely takes intrusiveness further according to its own EULA, so that among other things they reserve the right to find out what software and hardware you have. See the last bit of

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234262&postcount=2

So this is a sudden trend in PC game publishing. What next?

But also, five activations may be enough, for you, for this particular game. I still get a kick out of reinstalling old games--Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief and others. If this catches on it won't be possible to do that in future. Another trend, as others have pointed out.

All of which is reason for the consumer to be vigilant. And why you should complain if you don't like it, before it becomes established practice. How else will they know?

[immateriaux]

with all the "drama" going on about it, I thought it was something serious. something that would damage your PC, maybe sending info to 2k or something. almost virus like. having played the game now, and looking up some info online about securom, all I can say is ...pfffff..

Aside from the Securom being a rootkit debate (yes, ddave you are right - there were reports of unexplained file modifications on the old thread), and whether it installs a vulnerability on the PC yet to be fully exploited, not being able to install and play a game that I have bought whenever I myself want is a massive issue, I cannot believe someone can be a consumer of PC gaming and also be so blithe to say that is not a serious development.

[immateriaux]

... You're seriously fine with that stuff getting common practice? That you have to download a revoke tool and run it for each of let's say 4 or 5 games prior to reinstalling your system or eventually contacting customer support to be allowed to continue to play a game you bought?... In the end I'm better off playing a cracked copy of the game and that just can't be the point of a sensible copy protection scheme. ... I can understand that there are people that aren't bothered that much about the unannounced installation of SecuROM or even the inability to uninstall it. Still, unannounced installation of software that can't be uninstalled is illegal. Period. Simply because it is behaviour normally seen in malware. It might not bother you, but that doesn't change that fact.

Good points there too.

It is ironic that 2K have actually pushed people in the direction of seeking pirate versions of their software and consequently educated them to the existence and availability of pirated software, instead of censuring it as, I'm sure, was their intention.

[jd10013]

There have been reports here that it does send encrypted data back to the server regularly.

that, I will deffinitly take with a grain of salt. The people posting here and other boards about securom most deffinitly have a bisas. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't take their word on something like that any more than I'd take sony's word on how good it is.

So this is a sudden trend in PC game publishing. What next?

with piracy the way it is, I'd say yes. whats next? even more stricter security. They'll keep at it till they make something that the crackers can cicumvent. securom isn't the final answer, just a step along the way.

[quoteBut also, five activations may be enough, for you, for this particular game. I still get a kick out of reinstalling old games--Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief and others. If this catches on it won't be possible to do that in future. Another trend, as others have pointed out.[/quote]

but the revoke tool allows you to renew a license. Yes, it should have been included, or done differently, but as I said above, this stuff is a work in progress.


In the end, I think I just see it differently. To me, securom and activations are nothing more than the developers trying to prevent piracy. I can't blame them, its a huge problem. Not the bitorrets, I don't think that many people sitting through 2 day downloads and risking multiple virius's on their computer to save $50. Hell, the majority of those things don't even work. Most people arn't that cheap. At lest those who can afford a system capable of running this game wouldn't think much of $50. the real problem is the illegal copies being made all over the world. There's factories in chian and russia that do nothing but manufacture illigal software. They say 90% of the software sold in china is illegally made.

Now some people seem to view the whole securom/activation thing as some conspiracy, or attempt to fleece the consumers. that 2k has some sinistar motive behind this.

Being that they have shown a willingness to address problems with the software, such as the 2 install limit, I don't see any reason to fear this stuff. I guess I can understand, if not sympathize, with an industy that is seeing massive large scale theft of its product taking more drastic measures to stop it.

and that about all I have to say on that. For those you playing and enjoying the game, continue with you fun, I know I'm loving it. For those of you holding out for activation/securom removal, good luck and keep up the struggle. I may one day thank you for it.

Peace.

[immateriaux]

Yet the music industry continues to prove that DRM free actually improves sales. How does that figure?

And how come all the points I wrote got ignored :confused:

The revoke tool does not always renew a licence.

And why is it okay to encumber the public with "a work in progress" to solve a problem that a bit of testing and impact analysis would have highlighted before the release - like a good software company/publisher would have done :confused:

And why in the face of "massive large scale theft" are other very successful franchises/companies managing to survive without secretly installing malformed, undeletable files on a PC, secretly limiting installs, secretly encouraging bad practice in PC security (viz user accounts), using multiple authentications systems (in he case of Steam version), and still also requiring "DVD in drive" authentication :rolleyes:

I don't think 2K were sinister. Rather they were incompetent, dis-courteous, careless, underhand and unprofessional. Plus paranoid, presumably, given the ridiculous amount of protection they foisted onto the PC version of the game.

[ddave]

Hear hear, immateriaux. These extreme measures are not necessary, nor very effective, and counterproductive.

But the note of wariness about these developments at the end of jd10013's latest is a healthy sign.

[Kevin]

Here is one of my problems with SecureRom.

I have a HP computer with its supplied Keyboard. Fancy little keyboard with a bunch of buttons I do not use.

I was playing along in Bioshock when I hit one of those keys I do not use along the right edge.

All of the sudden Bioshock lock up / froze. I also noticed the DVD tray had opened.

What to do, what to do.

I closed the DVD tray, Bioshock still frozen.

Open Task Manager, click on Bioshock and then End Process.

After Bioshock closed and I selected Don't Send to windows message.

Up pops Roxio Creator Basic (free software included on this computer and most of the computers I looked at before buying this one for BioShock). I must have hit the key with the filled circle. It will start the program automatically.

You ask how can I blame this on Securom.

Here is why.

I then became curious. I started Bioshock again.

I started Task Manager again.

This time going to Processes tab, I selected Bioshock.exe and created a dump file.

Found the Dump file "Bioshock.dmp" and opened it using WordPad.

Knowing a little about Securom already . I did a search of the dump file for "c:\" .

What do I find but the entire path to the Roxio program imbedded in the dump file.

also the path to GPUanalyzer and a couple of other programs Securom was interested in.

I did not stop there I repeated the search and after 7 times finding the same files in the dump file I gave up the search, thinking this is appearing too many times.

I said to myself.

One: This is a waste of needed memory for the game.

Two: No wonder this games has problems, wonder how many problems would be solved by removing Securom.

Three: If I had a problem like some others, where you had to send a file to Securom for analysis. This info I found would be included along with other information.

I also did the same on my older computer running XP and have the same basic results.

Wonder if the Charlie testers were using a Securom free version to test.

And we are now waiting for Securom to add their mods in so a downloadable patch will run without us all having to use up another credit.

[Destop]

Hey there,

that, I will deffinitly take with a grain of salt. The people posting here and other boards about securom most deffinitly have a bisas. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't take their word on something like that any more than I'd take sony's word on how good it is.

You know, it doesn't even matter what SecuRom is as a program, or whether or not it phones back, or what its potential is as a backdoor. All that matters is, and now I'll loosely quote someone from this thread:

It is not acceptable that a software installs X, Y and Z on your system, but only uninstalls X and Y, leaving Z behind. Uninstalled software should remove its every trace, as simple as that. And you cannot hold it against us that we become a bit curious and worried if the software doesn't even acknowledge the existence of Z.

After being made aware of the existence of Z, the excuse is that Z cannot be uninstalled because it might interfere with other instances of Z already present on the system. Which reeks of sloppy programming, if you ask me.

Now you appear to be fine with Z being left on your system (and any other possible Zs you don't know about). Sure, it's your computer, your property, no problem. However, I (and undoubtedly other people as well, impar for example) am not. These "leftovers" are processes which might interfere with other software (SecuRom sometimes gets a little cranky when you're using your DVD-RW drive and burning software, for example), which take up (a little) processing time and a little memory, and for what? Absolutely nothing, because the program they are supposed to protect is gone.

And the more leftovers you have, the bigger the effect. Yet, if somehow the software would do something stupid like uninstall the Zs along with itself, there wouldn't be any problems.

You are fine with the revoke tool? Sure, I felt the same way initially, but once you begin to realise that if this protection "scheme" becomes the norm, you might be looking at 5 or more different revoke tools you need to run separately before you can do something like formatting the HDD for a clean re-install of the OS. And whoops, did that HDD crash before you could get the revoke tools to run? Well, that's one credit less for each piece of software. But, don't worry, you can e-mail each software publisher with data and pictures showing you're the proprietor of the softwares so that the credits are upped again after a few days of waiting. Yes, that sure sounds like an awesome passtime.

So that's why we're here, making ourselves heard. To prevent such scenarios from taking place.

Furthermore, it's the whole mentality behind the thing. The company no longer trusts its customers. Apparently, we can't be trusted to know about limited activation credits prior to purchase. Or that SecuRom stays behind after uninstallation. And, when we need to up installation credits, we have to "present ourselves to the court", prove our innocence by providing evidence and then, maybe, after the judge finds us not guilty, we might get those credits back. Effectively, we're being presumed guilty until we prove our innocence.

That just reeks. It reeks so much that I won't do business with this company anymore until it gets its act together on this matter. 2K Games doesn't trust me, so why should I trust 2K Games? The answer is obvious.

(I won't go into examples such as Hellgate: London or The Orange Box (found and bought a cheap copy from an online store? Whoops, you're a thief) or a Sony bigshot declaring that copying a song *you paid for* from your PC to an mp3 player is an act of theft, but it's obvious that the industry is having quite an interesting stance towards their paying customers these days)

What makes this whole matter absurd, though, is the fact that the Xbox 360 version has none of these issues. If you have an Xbox 360, you simply buy Bioshock, stick the DVD into the console, and play. Your brother wants to play it on his Xbox 360? Sure, here's the DVD bro, just make sure you enter the serial and wait until the .exe file is uploaded from the activation server...

Oh wait.

[matches81]

with piracy the way it is, I'd say yes. whats next? even more stricter security. They'll keep at it till they make something that the crackers can cicumvent. securom isn't the final answer, just a step along the way.

I'm sorry to say that, but copy protections exist for a long time and except for a number of games you can count with the fingers of one hand, they've all been completely ineffective. Assuming that publishers are not complete morons with a lack of sense for reality, they know that.
Don't get me wrong, I welcome every copy protection that
a) is effective
b) respects my rights as a customer
c) doesn't treat me like a thief
Doing illegal things on your turn just because someone did something illegal to you isn't right. There's no justification for infringing customer's rights in about every country of the market you're interested in.
If this instance of copy protection is "just a step along the way" then that way has nothing to do with fighting piracy. Or they're walking it in the wrong direction. I have no conspiracy theory or anything like that, I'm simply stating the obvious.


but the revoke tool allows you to renew a license. Yes, it should have been included, or done differently, but as I said above, this stuff is a work in progress.
So, you're saying that gamers should just deal with it? We've dealt with buggy games, most of us didn't complain about a few bugs, crashes, glitches or similar. Next up: A registration mechanism that isn't thought through and won't work properly for the first 6 weeks (the time it took for the revoke tool to appear). Now it works "a bit" and we're supposed to be happy?
You're basically saying we shouldn't expect an install and uninstall to work anymore.
If 2K wanted to implement things like activation credits they should have thought it through from beginning to end (including things like multiple user accounts on one system), implemented it properly and tested it. That's not an incredibly complicated process. I have all the patience you can expect from an enthusiast gamer when it comes to bugs of all kinds in the game, but I'm simply not willing to put up with bugs that are introduced by a completely ineffective mess of a copy protection system.


In the end, I think I just see it differently. To me, securom and activations are nothing more than the developers trying to prevent piracy. I can't blame them, its a huge problem. Not the bitorrets, I don't think that many people sitting through 2 day downloads and risking multiple virius's on their computer to save $50. Hell, the majority of those things don't even work. Most people arn't that cheap. At lest those who can afford a system capable of running this game wouldn't think much of $50. the real problem is the illegal copies being made all over the world. There's factories in chian and russia that do nothing but manufacture illigal software. They say 90% of the software sold in china is illegally made.

As I've said, the current "copy protection" doesn't work, nearly none of them ever has. If you really think that a delay of a few hours to a few days does decrease piracy noticably, you probably make people far more impatient than they are.


Now some people seem to view the whole securom/activation thing as some conspiracy, or attempt to fleece the consumers. that 2k has some sinistar motive behind this.

Being that they have shown a willingness to address problems with the software, such as the 2 install limit, I don't see any reason to fear this stuff. I guess I can understand, if not sympathize, with an industy that is seeing massive large scale theft of its product taking more drastic measures to stop it.

and that about all I have to say on that. For those you playing and enjoying the game, continue with you fun, I know I'm loving it. For those of you holding out for activation/securom removal, good luck and keep up the struggle. I may one day thank you for it.

Peace.
I would have sympathy with the games industry if they actually showed some real effort in stopping piracy and failed. But I get the impression they don't even rethink their policy from time to time. Seemingly they're mindlessly tacking the next version of the same old crap onto their games and hope it will miraculously stop piracy. It won't.
For me, there's no real effort visible to stop piracy from the publisher's side, so why should I have sympathy with an industry that rather kicks their customers' collective groin instead of thinking about the problem?

Peace to you, too.

[Hangmn]

I am glad this thread is still alive and kicking. I got a letter from the NYC AT.
Looks like this matter will be investigated. I got the feeling from the letter that SonyDADC is going to get shenannigans called on them, after all Sony was ORDERED TO STOP MESSING WITH CONSUMER ELECTRONCS, and to declare their *** and provide an uninstall tool in their last class action loss....the saga continues.....

[Charon Xeno]

Bioshock 2 will require giving an Iris scan and a DNA sample before you are allowed to play.

In other news: The pirates are still happily playing their pirated versions without hassle, and paying customers are still getting screwed both ways. Thanks 2KGames, for this not-to-subtle hint on the path of action you want us to take.

[Charon Xeno]

And a gem from Wikipedia regarding "Perverse incentive" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive)

Digital Rights Management schemes are often used to discourage illegal piracy by preventing copying of content, which also has the effect of reducing its utility to paying customers who want to play their purchased material on multiple machines, or make backups. Since pirated content usually does not contain DRM, user who do not want DRM restrictions on their content have a perverse incentive to pirate it. For example, if the publisher attempts to increase revenues by preventing ripping with DRM, it may be easier to pirate the ripped content than use a disc with DRM, therefore effectively reducing the publisher's revenues.

[trexmaster]

that, I will deffinitly take with a grain of salt. The people posting here and other boards about securom most deffinitly have a bisas. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't take their word on something like that any more than I'd take sony's word on how good it is.

Just place a network analyzer between your PC and your modem and take a look at the logs.

with piracy the way it is, I'd say yes. whats next? even more stricter security. They'll keep at it till they make something that the crackers can cicumvent. securom isn't the final answer, just a step along the way.

Such a thing doesn't exist. It's been proven multiple times, in multiple situations, whatever the "Plating" you use there's allways going to be someone to invent a "Bullet" to pierce it.


but the revoke tool allows you to renew a license. Yes, it should have been included, or done differently, but as I said above, this stuff is a work in progress.

A company should not sell "work in progress" to it's customer but complete, finished, tested products.


In the end, I think I just see it differently. To me, securom and activations are nothing more than the developers trying to prevent piracy. I can't blame them, its a huge problem.

Yeah, maybe it's the devs trying to stop piracy. But the problem is that they use illegal methods for that, and that only angers me. Anyone with a grain of common sense would refuse to install anything on it's computer without knowing about that software's presence and activity.

Not the bitorrets, I don't think that many people sitting through 2 day downloads and risking multiple virius's on their computer to save $50. Hell, the majority of those things don't even work.

Obviously you don't have the intelligence to download copies and cracks from established sources (warez sites and groups). It often takes less than a day to download the equivalent of a double-sided DVD, and if you wait a bit after the releases you can see which ones are worth the download. Btw, most viruses are distributed through emails, instant messaging software and malicious adds on websites (I didn't say that you shouldn't keep watch on what you download anyway).

Most people arn't that cheap. At lest those who can afford a system capable of running this game wouldn't think much of $50. the real problem is the illegal copies being made all over the world. There's factories in chian and russia that do nothing but manufacture illigal software. They say 90% of the software sold in china is illegally made.

If the real problem is factories making illegal copies in Low-Revenue countries then they should go and try to shut them down. But the fact is that those "factories" often have highly competent "security experts" that can remove those "security measures" in the blink of an eye, so I don't really think that's the reason behind it (the security measures). Add to that the fact that most people in those countries don't have enough money to buy a ****load of games at 50$/€ like we do.

No, I believe that the reason behind the activation process is to kill the second hand market and to prevent you from lending the game to your friends. I know I'm never gonna buy a second hand copy of Biosh** because I'd never know before hand if there'd be any "install credits" remaining. And, if I knew someone who had bought Biosh** on PC, I wouldn't ask him to lend me his copy because I don't want to use one of his install credits.


Now some people seem to view the whole securom/activation thing as some conspiracy, or attempt to fleece the consumers. that 2k has some sinistar motive behind this.

Being that they have shown a willingness to address problems with the software, such as the 2 install limit, I don't see any reason to fear this stuff. I guess I can understand, if not sympathize, with an industy that is seeing massive large scale theft of its product taking more drastic measures to stop it.

SecuROM is just a piece of sh** that is hidden from you until you have problems with it and you can't remove it without completely formatting your PC. And that fact alone is illegal (at least in Europe). And no, I'm not going to sympathize with a company that relies on illegal software, not to protect it's property, but to prevent me from rightly reselling or lending what I own (a copy of the game).

Instead I've sympathized with a company that respects me, and I've bought "The Witcher". Excellent game (if you like RPGs), just a DVD-check and only 50€ (Biosh** is sold for 60€ here).

[yogibbear]

So can anyone from 2k shed some official info on whether you guys and gals are going to be so nice as to remove the "activation credit" system that is in place at some point? Like say when the patch comes? As one of your many impressionable customers, i would find it very nice, and would be interested in supporting you in future games if you would happen to remove the limited activation credit system. And considering that you supposably are reading this, could you update us on this? Using 2k Liz as your channel to your consumber base?

Cheers,

Another Paying Customer, that will not support future 2k/Irrational games until this mess if cleared up.

[ZippyDSMlee]

So can anyone from 2k shed some official info on whether you guys and gals are going to be so nice as to remove the "activation credit" system that is in place at some point? Like say when the patch comes? As one of your many impressionable customers, i would find it very nice, and would be interested in supporting you in future games if you would happen to remove the limited activation credit system. And considering that you supposably are reading this, could you update us on this? Using 2k Liz as your channel to your consumber base?

Cheers,

Another Paying Customer, that will not support future 2k/Irrational games until this mess if cleared up.

But they have removed....if you can find the revoke tool....hehehehehehe

[Silus]

Bioshock 2 will require giving an Iris scan and a DNA sample before you are allowed to play.

In other news: The pirates are still happily playing their pirated versions without hassle, and paying customers are still getting screwed both ways. Thanks 2KGames, for this not-to-subtle hint on the path of action you want us to take.

I just need to add, that you're talking about the PC version. The VIP customers - Xbox users - have been playing Bioshock for almost 3 months, with no hassle, except for that number of saves limit, which is a big problem I might add :rolleyes:. And they still received updates, before the PC version...

[Silus]

But they have removed....if you can find the revoke tool....hehehehehehe

You mean the complete revoke tool, for multi-user accounts, that does not exist ?

[ZippyDSMlee]

You mean the complete revoke tool, for multi-user accounts, that does not exist ?

no the key/install revoke tool that dose it one install at a time,thats all we the paying consumers will get.

And with them working on the PS3 version it's no wonder theres a 2 month delay in patches for the current buyers of BS.

[yogibbear]

no the key/install revoke tool that dose it one install at a time,thats all we the paying consumers will get.

And with them working on the PS3 version it's no wonder theres a 2 month delay in patches for the current buyers of BS.

Oh and all the time they spend making new 360 achievements. Instead of patching this game.

2k, if you want to annoy PC gamers, you're going down the right path. Ignore us, and give the consolers more patches and support and achievements, instead of releasing the PC patch. Oooo it's iminent??! But not so iminent that you release it before the third 360 update. I wouldn't be surprised if the Widescreen fix gets released on the 360 first as well...

I keep coming back here, in the hope that you might just release a patch and remove activations and securom and well everything. But everyday i jsut get more and more dissapointed in you. Bet you're not even reading this single thread where you've shoved all your system shock lovers that gave you the money in the first place to start developing Bioshock...

[ZippyDSMlee]

Oh and all the time they spend making new 360 achievements. Instead of patching this game.

2k, if you want to annoy PC gamers, you're going down the right path. Ignore us, and give the consolers more patches and support and achievements, instead of releasing the PC patch. Oooo it's iminent??! But not so iminent that you release it before the third 360 update. I wouldn't be surprised if the Widescreen fix gets released on the 360 first as well...

I keep coming back here, in the hope that you might just release a patch and remove activations and securom and well everything. But everyday i jsut get more and more dissapointed in you. Bet you're not even reading this single thread where you've shoved all your system shock lovers that gave you the money in the first place to start developing Bioshock...

I am a SS2 fan and I am just disgusted with what they did with BS I can handle all the bugs and activation crap if the game was good but this thing is just..all of this for a mediocre game is pure BS....

[redrain85]

2k, if you want to annoy PC gamers, you're going down the right path.
If they want to annoy PC gamers?

It's too late to close the barn door now. The fire has been burning for months, and the horses are long gone.

[Silus]

If they want to annoy PC gamers?

It's too late to close the barn door now. The fire has been burning for months, and the horses are long gone.

Agreed. They already annoyed us too much. They had plenty of time to address the issues, but they decided to call them "older issues" and sweep everything under the rug. They promised a Revoke Tool, which I was surprised to see that actually existed, but surprise, surprise, it doesn't solve the key problem, which is to revoke credits, from a multi-user system i.e. to end the "Your brother can't play for free" nonsense.

But was I expecting them to raise their hand and say "Guilty" on all counts ? Not at all.
They are a company. Money was made and that's what interests them.
Do they care about long term effects of this debacle ? Sure they do. It will surely cripple their future sales.
But are they counting on people's short memory, to forget about this ? You bet.

However 2K, when you cross the line like this, people don't forget easily. So you better keep on giving priority to your beloved console customers, because there's at least a PC gamer, that's NOT going to support any game from you anymore. And I think it's a safe bet to say, that many people in these forums, will do the same. Less money for you, means one less company to treat PC gamers with disrespect and that's a plus in my book.

[Destop]

2k, if you want to annoy PC gamers, you're going down the right path. Ignore us, and give the consolers more patches and support and achievements, instead of releasing the PC patch. Oooo it's iminent??! But not so iminent that you release it before the third 360 update. I wouldn't be surprised if the Widescreen fix gets released on the 360 first as well...

Well, Community Manager 2K Elizabeth made the "imminent" statement on November 7th 2007, so the PC patch should appear in about 3 days, unless of course "imminent" is equivalent to or slower than "soon" in 2K Time.

Are you surprised that the Xbox 360 version receives quicker support? The testing and coding cycle is much shorter for it, and far more Xbox 360 copies have been sold so, amongst other things, the pressure to achieve general customer satisfaction is higher. Slow PC patching doesn't surprise me that much (although some PC developers are able to hit you hard and fast with them), and if 2K Games still has some faith in the PC gaming crowd =), they'll might pack in a few goodies.

Now, the velocity with which the revoke tool was handled, however...

[BioShockWins]

Well... they are throwing in a walk feature... FOR NO EXTRA CHARGE!!! :D

[trexmaster]

Well, Community Manager 2K Elizabeth made the "imminent" statement on November 7th 2007, so the PC patch should appear in about 3 days, unless of course "imminent" is equivalent to or slower than "soon" in 2K Time.

Are you surprised that the Xbox 360 version receives quicker support? The testing and coding cycle is much shorter for it, and far more Xbox 360 copies have been sold so, amongst other things, the pressure to achieve general customer satisfaction is higher. Slow PC patching doesn't surprise me that much (although some PC developers are able to hit you hard and fast with them), and if 2K Games still has some faith in the PC gaming crowd =), they'll might pack in a few goodies.

Now, the velocity with which the revoke tool was handled, however...

The Witcher's been out for about 3 weeks and has already been patched twice (for correcting bugs), and a third patch (focused on performance improvements, namely loading improvements) is on the rails with an ETA of about 2/3 weeks.

Biosh** for PC has been out for 2 months and half and there wasn't even one patch during all that time, only a "Revoke tool" that half-works.

I think that either :
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't know how to code for the Unreal Engine 3
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't code for the Unreal Engine 3 themselves and only make requests to EPIC
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't care about PC users

And I don't think that development cycles for the X360 are that much shorter than those of PC.

[yogibbear]

The Witcher's been out for about 3 weeks and has already been patched twice (for correcting bugs), and a third patch (focused on performance improvements, namely loading improvements) is on the rails with an ETA of about 2/3 weeks.

Biosh** for PC has been out for 2 months and half and there wasn't even one patch during all that time, only a "Revoke tool" that half-works.

I think that either :
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't know how to code for the Unreal Engine 3
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't code for the Unreal Engine 3 themselves and only make requests to EPIC
- the people at Irrational/2K Boston don't care about PC users

And I don't think that development cycles for the X360 are that much shorter than those of PC.

Yeah i actually wouldn't care about some games being multiplatform if developers actually supported them as if they were multiplatform games. Instead of just using it to cash in on a wider audience and then leave everyone in the dark.

Hence, why i'm not toooo sure about cod4 yet. I'm waiting for some announcement from IW that they'll be making a server to host stats before purchasing that game. (at the moment they're pc side. which is just dumb. dumb like 2k dumb). Not that i care about stats. Just if they're PC side it's silly as people will just hack them to the highest level. (This implementation seems rather consolish...storing crucial data on the users hard-drive)

The Witcher + Crysis will be my November purchases. PC only. PC developers. People that know what the hell they're doing and give proper support. Those kind of people deserve my money.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yeah i actually wouldn't care about some games being multiplatform if developers actually supported them as if they were multiplatform games. Instead of just using it to cash in on a wider audience and then leave everyone in the dark.

Hence, why i'm not toooo sure about cod4 yet. I'm waiting for some announcement from IW that they'll be making a server to host stats before purchasing that game. (at the moment they're pc side. which is just dumb. dumb like 2k dumb). Not that i care about stats. Just if they're PC side it's silly as people will just hack them to the highest level. (This implementation seems rather consolish...storing crucial data on the users hard-drive)

The Witcher + Crysis will be my November purchases. PC only. PC developers. People that know what the hell they're doing and give proper support. Those kind of people deserve my money.
Witcher has poor design in gameplay issues its not bad but I would double check it, the way it plays can be annoying.

I thought Crysis was goign to the 360?

[redrain85]

I thought Crysis was goign to the 360?
Not likely.

http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/10208/Crytek_CEO_Crysis_Not_Possible_on_Consoles.html
http://kotaku.com/gaming/crysis/crysis-not-coming-to-xbox-360-229495.php

[ZippyDSMlee]

Not likely.

http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/10208/Crytek_CEO_Crysis_Not_Possible_on_Consoles.html
http://kotaku.com/gaming/crysis/crysis-not-coming-to-xbox-360-229495.php

I hope they focus on the PC release for 4 months or so after launch gettign ti polished before working on other versions, hopefully this is what they are doing focusing on the PC version then gettign ti ready for the consoles thats how a game should be made, target system first ports next this all at once BS just adds to to many issues unless its fully beta tested and patched prelaunch.

[Nogard]

:eek: I have read through this huge topic...WOW!!!!:eek:

[BioShockWins]

Not likely.

http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/10208/Crytek_CEO_Crysis_Not_Possible_on_Consoles.html
http://kotaku.com/gaming/crysis/crysis-not-coming-to-xbox-360-229495.php

I really hope it stays PC exclusive.

It's about time PC got something good. ;)

[yogibbear]

I really hope it stays PC exclusive.

It's about time PC got something good. ;)

It will. The devs have stated multiple times that it won't run on the ps3/360 in it's current form.

I'm pretty sure they intend to make "some sort of game set in the same setting" for the 360/ps3... but they're going to hack away lots of the memory intensive/gpu intensive bits. And probably make the levels smaller and more stream lined. and stuff.

Which is good. Because the demo + MP beta definitely felt like a PC game and not some lame multiplatform rubbish.

Crytek are awesome.

[BioShockWins]

They'll probably end up making Far Cry 2 for a console, assuming they haven't already.

Not because I don't think CryTek can make a good game.
It's just that you have lots of limited resources in game development.

Or so I've heard...

Maybe whoever is publishing will want them to make a console version of it anyway, etc.

Not to be a nay sayer, but if anyone really cares, you might get a Crysis Relevant game one of these days.

[trexmaster]

Witcher has poor design in gameplay issues its not bad but I would double check it, the way it plays can be annoying.

Then double-check it quickly I can guarantee that, even some gameplay decisions are a bit unusual, they're not "issues" nor "poor design" once you've understood how they work (and it's quite fast). The only real "dark" point of The Witcher is those damn loading times, but the devs are working on it.

[matches81]

Then double-check it quickly I can guarantee that, even some gameplay decisions are a bit unusual, they're not "issues" nor "poor design" once you've understood how they work (and it's quite fast). The only real "dark" point of The Witcher is those damn loading times, but the devs are working on it.

QFT. I see no obvious design "issues" in The Witcher. According to some rumours the english dialogs are 20% shorter than their polish equivalents to save money on the translations and voice-overs, which would explain the sometimes weird dialogs with a feeling of "missing links" here and there. But gameplay-wise it's pretty sweet, the story is great and the visuals are just pretty.
But, some of my friends have rather ugly issues with the game, from random crashes to not being able to attack sometimes (sometimes even not at all). For me it runs flawlessly, but be warned that the game currently _can_ have serious issues.

[impar]

Greetings!... http://www.bioshockunlock.com/It looks like phishing to me... :mad:

[myKershenzew]

yeah, think whatever you want, it worked for me, and by the way, i got this site from the securom support, so think what you want and go the hell

[impar]

... and go the hellOooo! A touchy fellow. :p

[Destop]

QFT. I see no obvious design "issues" in The Witcher. According to some rumours the english dialogs are 20% shorter than their polish equivalents to save money on the translations and voice-overs, which would explain the sometimes weird dialogs with a feeling of "missing links" here and there.

But gameplay-wise it's pretty sweet, the story is great and the visuals are just pretty.

I agree, and thanks for letting us know why the story seemed so incoherent at times (playing the english version). Hopefully, CDProjekt will have the funds to do a sequel and translate the entire story.

One gameplay flaw addressed by IGN (no less!) which I do think is valid, is the fact that the whole inventory management is so rudimentary. It would have been great if the inventory was categorised ("Luxury items", "Potions", "Alchemy Ingredients", "Food", "Liquor", etc.). The way it is now, you really waste a fair amount of time searching for the right stuff, especially in the later parts of the game when you have tons of items.

But, some of my friends have rather ugly issues with the game, from random crashes to not being able to attack sometimes (sometimes even not at all). For me it runs flawlessly, but be warned that the game currently _can_ have serious issues.

I have random crashes too, but they're rather infrequent (once every 4-5 hours or so) and usually, the game auto-saved right before the event (perhaps that's why auto-saving is so frequent =). As for not being able to attack, that happens to me as well. Luckily, there's a solution (works for me, at least): once you notice that Geralt no longers wants to initiate an attack, double-click on the ground to pirouette out of the way. After that, Geralt should be able to use his sword again.

[trexmaster]

I agree, and thanks for letting us know why the story seemed so incoherent at times (playing the english version). Hopefully, CDProjekt will have the funds to do a sequel and translate the entire story.


Also, keep in mind that the American version is Censored, so there might be some of the most... expressive :D ... dialogs cut out.

One gameplay flaw addressed by IGN (no less!) which I do think is valid, is the fact that the whole inventory management is so rudimentary. It would have been great if the inventory was categorised ("Luxury items", "Potions", "Alchemy Ingredients", "Food", "Liquor", etc.). The way it is now, you really waste a fair amount of time searching for the right stuff, especially in the later parts of the game when you have tons of items.


Even though I'm not that far into the game (got to Act2 and then started a second game :p ) it's already tiring to have to sort the inventory manually. But, again, the devs are working on something for the next patch ;)

I have random crashes too, but they're rather infrequent (once every 4-5 hours or so) and usually, the game auto-saved right before the event (perhaps that's why auto-saving is so frequent =). As for not being able to attack, that happens to me as well. Luckily, there's a solution (works for me, at least): once you notice that Geralt no longers wants to initiate an attack, double-click on the ground to pirouette out of the way. After that, Geralt should be able to use his sword again.

Except for the weird "i don't want to fight anymore" bug I've never had any crash in The Witcher so far. I guess I'm lucky :D

On topic : The Witcher just uses a simple DVD-check (TAGES I believe).

[BerkBob]

I remain frustrated and baffled. If there had been adequate disclosure of the activation/drm issues I might not have purchased. The bottom line is that honest consumers are given the run around. Can't play the game, and I have never experienced so much hassle. It is not worth the time and effort and I think the game was issued for PC before it was ready.
R. Baird

[ZippyDSMlee]

I remain frustrated and baffled. If there had been adequate disclosure of the activation/drm issues I might not have purchased. The bottom line is that honest consumers are given the run around. Can't play the game, and I have never experienced so much hassle. It is not worth the time and effort and I think the game was issued for PC before it was ready.
R. Baird

The appearance of protecting the bottom line s more important than really protecting it.

[Silus]

I remain frustrated and baffled. If there had been adequate disclosure of the activation/drm issues I might not have purchased. The bottom line is that honest consumers are given the run around. Can't play the game, and I have never experienced so much hassle. It is not worth the time and effort and I think the game was issued for PC before it was ready.
R. Baird

And that's why it was not disclosed, which makes things worse. It was done intentionally.
Trust is a valuable thing and to keep your fanbase is another. 2K thought that, to appeal to the console crowd, they should screw with their PC fanbase and they did. Hopefully, people will not forget this Bioshock incident and will teach 2K, with their money, what this actually meant to them, in the long term.

[ddave]

Crysis @ tweakguides.com:

http://www.tweakguides.com/Crysis_4.html

'It does not contain any activation or other online verification systems'

Yesss!

[BioShockWins]

Maybe I should change the title to "PC games in general thread". ;)

[yogibbear]

Mhmmm, I finally picked up the witcher yesterday. As i'm in the middle of uni exams... so didn't want to ruin my study break.

Anyhow, all i can say is i whole-heartedly stand by my recommendation. The Witcher is RPG of the year. It is awesome. (played from 11pm till 4am when i got home from my exam at 10pm)... 6.45pm exams suck.

[yogibbear]

um... ban?.

cheers. :cool:

[trexmaster]

um... ban?.

cheers. :cool:

Oh yeah ! At least I hope so !

[Jakester]

Wow. Today was the first time I saw this thread hit page 2.

[yogibbear]

Update on the Witcher: ooo so i played a bit more and got through to Act II, well a hefty ways into Act 2. And all i can say is that Act 2 is even better than Act 1.

Like one of the main quest lines is soooo good. Finally someone has remade those old quest lines (reminds me of that weird Discworld game where i had to fake being dead, and a segment from Monkey Island) where you do an autopsy... pisses all over Oblivions lame, you don't get to decide for yourself who's guilty, the game does, mechanic. Finally it comes down to our choice, observations and blah blah blah... :cool:

[headkase]

And that's why it was not disclosed, which makes things worse. It was done intentionally.
Trust is a valuable thing and to keep your fanbase is another. 2K thought that, to appeal to the console crowd, they should screw with their PC fanbase and they did. Hopefully, people will not forget this Bioshock incident and will teach 2K, with their money, what this actually meant to them, in the long term.

It's pretty standard that a PC game requires the DVD in the drive - no matter which system is used (E.g. If it wasn't SecuROM it would have been something else). And consoles obviously *always* require the disc in the machine. Requiring a download to play on the PC is not explicitly mentioned but my retail box does literally say: "Important Note: Game requires Internet connection for activation." So although it doesn't say it's going to download the exe it does say the Internet/2K server is needed to install the game which is loosely equivalent. It is clearly on the box. Or to put it in another context: I connect to an authorization server everytime I boot up Quake 4 multiplayer and don't complain about that. Connecting to a 2k server that in essence is the same "authorization" principle once on install I also don't mind. It would only tick me off if the server was discontinued at the time of a future install. When the servers *do* go offline sometime in the future 2k *had better* release an offline installer/last patch. If they don't then I would feel morally justified in aquiring the product I paid for from another source.

I understand and agree for the most part with your frustration but I do not regret trading my money for Bioshock.

[headkase]

And that's why it was not disclosed...

But if you mean the 5 activations before you have to jump through a hoop or two: that could have been better disclosed but again unless you're benchmarking Bioshock on a lot of different machines or reinstall windows daily (without revoking your current install) I also believe that this is a fairly reasonable (yet still annoying) measure.

A Windows install usually lasts me six months on average so again, on average, that would mean I could have Bioshock installed for 2.5 years without even looking at the revoke tool before I would have to *phone* (Yes, phone so I can yell) SecuROM to push a button.

[Aegeri]

When is the securom crap being patched out? It's been several months now. Isn't it about time we got rid of it?

[trexmaster]

When is the securom crap being patched out? It's been several months now. Isn't it about time we got rid of it?

I doubt it'll ever be removed, and I doubt there's ever gonna be an "offline" installer, and I also doubt that the "revoke tool" is one day going to work on multi-user windows installations, and finally I doubt there's ever gonna be any patch at all.

Just take a look at some other games that've been patched right after release (The Witcher, Quake 4, SimCity Societies, Crysis, ET:QW, etc) or are patched regularly (for instance, World of Warcraft is patched every month :eek: ), and now compare that to Bioshock PC patch situation : 3 ****ing months after it's release, even though there's been a quite a lot of issues raised (field of view on widescreens, bugs in the beginning of the game, sound problems, mouse problems, activation problems, SecuROM problems, etc), there isn't even one single patch out !

My ultimate guess is that, now that the game's been sold, they're just counting the money and waiting for the fuss to die :mad:

And that's even more of a reason not to buy a 2K/Irrational game anymore.

[matches81]

I doubt it'll ever be removed, and I doubt there's ever gonna be an "offline" installer, and I also doubt that the "revoke tool" is one day going to work on multi-user windows installations, and finally I doubt there's ever gonna be any patch at all.

Just take a look at some other games that've been patched right after release (The Witcher, Quake 4, SimCity Societies, Crysis, ET:QW, etc) or are patched regularly (for instance, World of Warcraft is patched every month :eek: ), and now compare that to Bioshock PC patch situation : 3 ****ing months after it's release, even though there's been a quite a lot of issues raised (field of view on widescreens, bugs in the beginning of the game, sound problems, mouse problems, activation problems, SecuROM problems, etc), there isn't even one single patch out !

My ultimate guess is that, now that the game's been sold, they're just counting the money and waiting for the fuss to die :mad:

And that's even more of a reason not to buy a 2K/Irrational game anymore.
I'm not so sure about the patch. Either they want to release a "one catches all" patch (at which they will most definitely fail anyway) or they're not going to release a patch. (or a third option: they're incredibly slow)
I don't know about you, but I'd say both options aren't too brilliant. Dividing the bug-fixes into a few patches and releasing those faster than 2K keeps the customers at bay a bit better I guess, because they actually see that something is done and don't have to guess the whole time. Sure, those guys that have a bug that wasn't fixed in the last patch won't be happy, but at least they would know that there is something done.
This is what I find really annoying about that whole mess with Bioshock: We have to guess and "hope" instead of 2K releasing a proper official statement. I'm sorry, but the inability to set an ETA for a patch that is "imminent" is just ridiculous. Also, not answering your customers' questions about whether the online activation will go away and perhaps giving a very rough ETA for that, too, is simply arrogant and an insult to your customers.
This is definitely the worst customer support / public relations work I've ever seen. One would think 2K should be eager to minimize the damage to their reputation after that DRM mess they released here, but it seems they just don't care in the least.

[yogibbear]

but it seems they just don't care in the least.

Mmhmmmm. Very true.

I've decided that other developers are much more friendly, and capable. And well deserving of my money.

I bet the reason their patch is taking soooo long is because they're such dodge developers that the patch is introducing more bugs than fixes. Oh how they've learnt to master that UE3 engine.... no one wonder they got it sooo wrong the first time. Oh and i also bet they decided to let the playtesters use a gold disc that had securom on it. And then because they could only install it on 2 computers, they decided that their beta testing would have to be done on only 2 separate builds. Instead of the 30 or so combinations that would of had about 95% of the potential conflicts resolved in a few weeks.

Oh but that sounds ridiculous. And ridiculous is definitely not plausible. No... oh well iminent you say. Preposterous. The patch is a lie........

/rant

+12000 securom XP gained to teddy the anti-securom knight.

/end acting like a tool.

[Destop]

But if you mean the 5 activations before you have to jump through a hoop or two: that could have been better disclosed but again unless you're benchmarking Bioshock on a lot of different machines or reinstall windows daily (without revoking your current install) I also believe that this is a fairly reasonable (yet still annoying) measure.

A Windows install usually lasts me six months on average so again, on average, that would mean I could have Bioshock installed for 2.5 years without even looking at the revoke tool before I would have to *phone* (Yes, phone so I can yell) SecuROM to push a button.

You are trying to rationalise something AFTER purchase, after money effectively exchanged hands, whereas consumers should have had the opportunity to rationalise about it PRIOR to purchase. That's why the limited activation credits should have been explicitly mentioned on the box. In my region (European Community), witholding relevant information from the customer prior to purchase is categorised as a MISLEADING business practise, which I agree with.

Sure, limited activation credits might be reasonable to you, but you being fine with it doesn't mean we should all be fine with it. If I pay FULL PRICE (as in, 50 Euros (=$70 currently)) for a game, I want to be able to install that game as many times as I want on a single, physical machine, under any - reasonable - circumstances, whenever I like (now or in a distant future) and without ever needing to call a service hotline or "phone home", which the revoke tool does. Reasonably speaking, there shouldn't be an artificial expiration date on software, only a physical one (disc becomes unreadable through wear and tear).

As for the "Internet activation required" clause being sufficient to warrant the missing .exe: a few months ago, I considered this as well, and it is correct. The statement, however, is vague enough to be open to interpretation, which means some clarification should have been added so that the customer knows what the activation process entails, especially if the activation procedure is markedly different from what can be reasonably expected.

[Destop]

Oh but that sounds ridiculous. And ridiculous is definitely not plausible. No... oh well iminent you say. Preposterous. The patch is a lie........

Unlike revoke tools, game patches have always been around, so I'm pretty sure that the patch will be released and that, in fact, they are finalising it right now. Still, '2K Time' is quite intriguing: "Soon" = 10 days, "Imminent" > 13 days, so "Soon" is faster than "Imminent" in 2K Time.

[Charon Xeno]

When is the securom crap being patched out? It's been several months now. Isn't it about time we got rid of it?

I will be removed once 2K does not make any more money from Bioshock (or the terroris... er.. pirates win). Unfortunately once 2K does not make any more money from Bioshock, deploying any kinda of patch (bugfix, annoying-protection-removal) is not worth the expense anymore and will not be done...

In other words. The "we'll eventually remove the activation/securom" crap from 2k is nothing but a big, fat lie, so some of the... more gullible users don't act up but rather spend, spend, spend more money on 2k games.

[Charon Xeno]

But if you mean the 5 activations before you have to jump through a hoop or two: that could have been better disclosed but again unless you're benchmarking Bioshock on a lot of different machines or reinstall windows daily (without revoking your current install) I also believe that this is a fairly reasonable (yet still annoying) measure.

A Windows install usually lasts me six months on average so again, on average, that would mean I could have Bioshock installed for 2.5 years without even looking at the revoke tool before I would have to *phone* (Yes, phone so I can yell) SecuROM to push a button.

Ah, the joys of unthinking consumerism. I suppose you also support the DRM-kits Sony & Co. puts on their music CDs and installs on your PCs (if you try to listen to music CDs from there) are perfectly legitimate business practices. (Anyone who wants to get their songs from CD to their MP3 player better repurchase them, filthy pirates!)

[Silus]

Hey 2K!

Here's something for you. Please read.

http://www.pcworld.ca/Pages/NewsColumn.aspx?id=3502a6180a010408008b33e8c209b78 6

Obviously the most important point, should be (1). I think you'll understand why...

[BloodRayne]

Maybe I should change the title to "PC games in general thread". ;)
Or.. you could actually read the thread go into the concerns of the customers, take action to make them more satisfied, perhaps explain a few things... you know.. service and all that. :rolleyes:

[matches81]

Sometimes I wonder if we'll ever get an answer to our questions. It's been three months now, over 4000 posts in this and the old thread and all that the mods seem to do, if anything, is throw in a sarcastic comment. Don't you mods work for 2K? Are you just unwilling to get answers to our questions or is there really no way to do so?

And don't tell us "these decisions take time". Bioshock has been out for three months now, it's not that big in the media anymore and everyone who was really interested in the game has already bought it probably, if he wasn't scared off rightfully by your notion of "copy protection". How about you at least start trying to satisfy your customers that have questions?

I will make it even easier for you by posing a really simple question:
Is 2K even considering removing the online activation in the foreseeable future?
If so, have they though about how they're gonna fix the issue with the mixing .exe?

[BioShockWins]

I really, really don't have the time to drive down to Boston for you right now.

As much as I'd like to, I can't.

[ddave]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodies?

[ddave]

...custodes, dang. :)

[matches81]

I really, really don't have the time to drive down to Boston for you right now.

As much as I'd like to, I can't.
As you probably noticed, my request wasn't solely directed at you, but at all the moderators around here.
What good is an official forum if you can't get any official answers?

[matches81]

Oh yeah, and thx for confirming my statement about the sarcastic comments from mods. ;)

[Destop]

I will make it even easier for you by posing a really simple question:
Is 2K even considering removing the online activation in the foreseeable future?
If so, have they though about how they're gonna fix the issue with the mixing .exe?

Well, Community Manager 2K Elizabeth declared some time ago, in the original SecuRom thread, that "SecuRom stays". My personal interpretation of this is: with "Securom", she meant SecuRom as implemented in Bioshock PC with the missing .exe, activation servers and limited activation credits revokable under certain conditions. So all of that "stays" until further notice. My answer to your questions would then be, "Not until further notice" in both cases.

[redrain85]

There were two - count 'em - two articles on Ars Technica today, talking about the backlash against DRM and that fact that it appears to be doomed.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071121-uk-retailers-to-record-labels-drm-is-killing-us.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071122-six-things-to-be-thankful-for-in-technology-2007.html

So when are game publishers going to get the same message? DRM is despised by the overwhelming majority, and some content producers are finally starting to clue into this fact. I don't think the responsibility to your shareholders is worth the aggravation you've caused your customers; who will remember the awful copy protection on Bioshock and think twice before ever buying another 2K game.

[impar]

Greetings!So when are game publishers going to get the same message?Never. They are too detached from reality.

[jd10013]

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071121-uk-retailers-to-record-labels-drm-is-killing-us.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071122-six-things-to-be-thankful-for-in-technology-2007.html

.

declining music sales have nothing to with peer to peer file sharing I guess. It's all the DRM. :rolleyes:

[Destop]

declining music sales have nothing to with peer to peer file sharing I guess. It's all the DRM. :rolleyes:

I think the reason store owners are worried is because the segment of customers which kept buying CDs/DVDs - even with p2p sharing - is now walking away too, because of DRM. People who don't mind paying for their music at all, except that they would like to see their product run on all their systems, not just the ones DRM wants them to use, for example.

Paying customers who won't stand for it that companies treat them as potential thieves and expect to be paid for it, too. In a free world, with a globalised economy, people won't accept it if these companies treat them as if they were guilty until proven innocent. The change of mentality induced by DRM is what causes customers to walk away and find other means of procuring music which runs on all their systems without a hitch.

Of course p2p (and the .mp3 standard) had, and has an effect on music sales - the fact that the sales decreased before DRM was around, proves this. But DRM doesn't quite appear to be helping the good fight, so companies better remove DRM and think of something else, or invest in finding a working DRM solution which also meets consumer standards.

Which, amongst other things, includes not being presumed guilty until proven innocent (see following examples), not suffering hardware damage because of the DRM system (see Tages), not having to pay full price for incomplete software with an artificial expiration date (see Bioshock PC), not having to give up their digital rights in an unreasonable fashion (see Hellgate: London), having the freedom to install services from a provider of their choosing on their product (see iPhone) and not being considered guilty of thievery when a person copies a tune from his/her store-bought CD to his/her mp3 player for personal use (see Sony).

Anyway, all this needs serious study and political debate on a global scale until solutions have been found. This matter is way beyond the scope of this forum.

[Destop]

Of course p2p (and the .mp3 standard) had, and has an effect on music sales - the fact that the sales decreased before DRM was around, proves this. But DRM doesn't quite appear to be helping the good fight, so companies better remove DRM and think of something else, or invest in finding a working DRM solution which also meets consumer standards.

Hmm. Small edit:

"Of course p2p (and the .mp3 standard) had, and has an effect on music sales - the fact that the sales decreased when p2p was around, but DRM wasn't, indicates this."

I've changed "proves" to "indicates", because at the time, reduced CD sales due to p2p has been heavily discussed as well. The opposing side to this view claimed, for example, that it wasn't p2p's fault, but rather the "gross overpricing of CD products". Initially high because of production costs, CDs never got cheaper even though they are now produced at a pittance compared to the original costs. Also, musicians only saw small percentages of the total revenue, the companies raked in the lion's share of the profits, etc etc...

Complex case, really.

[jd10013]

Personally, I don't see a solution to any of this stuff anytime soon. at least, not one that will satisfy the company and the customer. The simple fact of the matter is, piracy is the #1 issue facing the digital media industry. They can't, and won't ignore it. Nowadays, most music, movies, and games hit the INTERNET before the legitimate copy does. And that's a very bad thing. If it continues, the result will be less things available, from fewer companies, at a much higher price. For games, it's even worse. Everything will simply go to console. Microsoft just made the template with Halo 3. record sales, without a single thought to piracy. In fact, I just read a couple of articles that interviewed someone from 2k about the securom shi* storm, and he basically said 2k was very satisfied with the results. And what were those results? To delay the inevitable availability of a cracked version of the game so as not to hurt console sales. He said their number one goal was to not have a crack released between the time the game went gold and hitting the shelves. And he basically said that all future games will have similar security features on them, but did say it would be slightly different.

But the real question is, what is the industry supposed to do? I've seen a lot of threads and post about how bad securom and activation/downloaded .exe are, but what should the industry be doing, or trying to do? simply removing everything isn't really a viable solution. They have to try to protect their investment. both in time and money. So, what would some of you guys suggest?

[redrain85]

In the case of Bioshock: full disclosure about the fact that SecuROM would be installed and that there would be limited activations, on the box, would have been sufficient to prevent most of the anger and frustration that resulted.

Yes, of course, putting this on the box would have turned off a lot of potential buyers immediately. So that's exactly why these facts were left off the packaging. It was deliberate, a case of "what they don't know won't hurt them . . . until it's too late, that is!"

As for DRM as a whole, in every industry: the solution is simple. Make the product the best it can be. Don't try to rip people off by releasing incomplete products, or leaving out features in an attempt to double-dip later with a deluxe or GOTY edition. Price it at a reasonable amount. Don't try to gouge people. Some protection is acceptable, but methods that become so restrictive that they even inconvenience the legitimate buyer: a huge turn-off.

There are always going to be people who steal, whether there is DRM protection in place or not. And every single from of DRM, to date, has always been cracked. Pursuing ever more complex and expensive forms of DRM is a waste of money and effort. The only people who benefit from it all, is the creators of the DRM protection. They make a lot of money out of other companies' paranoia.

A simple form of protection that discourages casual piracy, but doesn't inconvenience legitmate customers, is the best solution.

[matches81]

declining music sales have nothing to with peer to peer file sharing I guess. It's all the DRM. :rolleyes:
If you want to ignore everything that points in the direction that piracy is not the devil that kills the entertainment industry, okay. But just in case you're really interested in the matter:
Study about the relation between P2P usage and CD sales (http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-boosts-cd-sales-071103/)
Overall the researchers found no difference between pirates and other people in the number of CDs they buy. They did not find a positive or a negative relationship between filesharing and CD sales. So, at worst, filesharing isn’t the cause for a drop in CD sales. It might even be a boon to it.

I'm sorry, but it's just stupid to ignore those things and go on and say P2P is responsible for "declining music sales". Why should I buy a CD that I can't use on my PC for example? Why should I buy a DVD I can't play on my PC, but have to use my PS2 to watch it? Why should I even think about buying MP3s that only run on one or two MP3 players?
If you like those things, you either have too much money and don't care what happens next or you're just blind.

Furthermore I don't get why exactly the entertainment industries are whining all the time. Games and movies industries are growing pretty darn fast. The music industry might be at a halt currently (don't know about that), but could it perhaps be possible that the music industry itself has a part in that? No, of course not. It has to be them god-damn pirates! Burn them all!

A thing to remember about piracy:
The entertainment industry itself does not have a material loss induced by piracy. All they have is an estimated ratio of "pirated copies" to "copies not sold". To appear to be suffering really badly, PR guys from record labels and other companies like to proclaim that every pirated copy is a copy less sold, which is obviously wrong. Even the most narrow-minded guy should be able to understand that. If you've ever stopped to think about that, you would come to the same conclusion, because if those PR guys were right, there would be no entertainment industry left anymore, simple as that.
It might be pretty hard to estimate the real loss for the industry, but I'm inclined to believe the study linked above. Why? Simple: "Prior to piracy" people bought CDs they really liked, except they were rich kids who just bought everything half-way interesting. With piracy people tend to do the same, because most people simply understand that it's the right thing to do to support a work of art you like. If you're assuming that everybody has the world's worst interest at heart: Don't leave your house, everybody will try to rob, rape or kill you, just for the fun of it and because they can.

Back to DRM: This changes the picture dramatically. Should someone who wants to support a piece of art he likes have to cope with extra issues thrown at him? I don't think so. I understand the desire of companies to protect their property, but they can't expect customers to silently accept the current measures taken against them. If current DRM measures were supposed to lower piracy, the industry should get an F for that effort, because they completely missed the topic. Those measures don't work against piracy. They only affect the legit customers. Simple fact.


I just read a couple of articles that interviewed someone from 2k about the securom shi* storm, and he basically said 2k was very satisfied with the results. And what were those results? To delay the inevitable availability of a cracked version of the game so as not to hurt console sales. He said their number one goal was to not have a crack released between the time the game went gold and hitting the shelves. And he basically said that all future games will have similar security features on them, but did say it would be slightly different.
Well, then 2K will have to do without me as a customer and probably many others. If that copy protection really was about protecting the game from gold status to release date, why not remove the copy protection after release and let the legit customers enjoy the game in peace?
I'd really like to read those interview(s), would be great if you could post a link here.

But the real question is, what is the industry supposed to do? I've seen a lot of threads and post about how bad securom and activation/downloaded .exe are, but what should the industry be doing, or trying to do? simply removing everything isn't really a viable solution. They have to try to protect their investment. both in time and money. So, what would some of you guys suggest?
I think part of the problem currently is that an original game bought at a retail store has the same perceived value as a pirated copy downloaded from the internet. Basically a retail version of a game currently consists of the DVD and a manual nobody reads. So, in the end, you get the game and that's it. No additional nice stuff. That is the same you get when downloading the game illegally. Making the retail version of a game a more valuable item for the customer would be an idea and might give an incentive to buy a game.
The copy protection measures taken in Bioshock haven't stopped piracy. The game is out there freely available, and has been so pretty soon after release, just as every other game. Obviously, even breaking laws of several nations and infringing the customers' rights so blatantly wasn't enough to stop piracy. How about using a simple CD check that will prevent most casual gamers from simply passing the game on to a friend? The current copy protection does not do anything more than that, so why not use a mechanism that doesn't hurt customers?
What I'm saying is:
Make the product more valuable than the pirated copy and as part of that: Don't include copy protection schemes that actually lower the value of your product drastically.

[toto952]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews&title&2=
(Reminder: 2K is just a brand of Take 2)

The guy there justify the need for activation to avoid 0-day crack coming from the manufacturing factories and do not compromise sales of the console version because of a pirated PC one.
Either this is pure PR-speak or the guy is completly incompetent.

To achieve the same goals, there is no need to use online activation, either with or without install limit:
- to protect the console version from pirated PC copies, there is a dumb and efficient solution : delay the PC version
- a more convoluted solution is to indeed do not burn the exe on the disc (thus protecting the title before release date), but make the exe available only on D-day in a classic free-to-download, free-to-distribute and free-to-copy-around patch. The enclosed exe would contain a classic CD protection to prevent casual piracy.

Anyway, this do not excuse the complete lack of prior notice on the issue and further misleading statementw, either intentional or because of pure incompetence.

Although, the guy promises that Take 2 will not use the same tools for their next games, strangely the activation has NOT been removed form Bioshock yet, even if it no more served its so-called purpose. And as this guy is not a business representative but a simple programmer, his words on the topic are worth nothing.

Of yeah, and the best part he's that they still think our anger is "unbelievable".

[impar]

Greetings!But just in case you're really interested in the matter:
Study about the relation between P2P usage and CD sales (http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-boosts-cd-sales-071103/)Basically, P2Pers always said that P2P activity increased CD sales, because it allowed them to know new artists.
Music industry, on the other hand, always said P2P activity caused a decrease in CD sales, because it allowed P2Pers to obtain the music for free.

As in most cases, the reality/truth should be somewhere in the middle of those opposing views.

What the study concludes is the amount of CD sales increases in just 1 download per month, 0,03(6) CDs per month increase, quantifying the P2Per view of CD sales increase.
However, to defend that P2P activity doesnt affect negatively the amount of CDs sold is just ridiculous. Only need to check the CD sales charts since P2P and broadband became commom.

Even the study (which I consider pro-P2P, if by anything else, by the words used) found no evidence of a "relationship between P2P file-sharing and the purchasing of electronically-delivered music files" (page 35 of the studys PDF).
My interpretation is that P2Pers already have a digital copy of the music, obtained via P2P, so they dont need to buy the music from iTunes or other similar service. The increase in CDs sales can be explained by the value P2Pers give to a hard copy of the music for their music collection shelves.

[ddave]

Of yeah, and the best part he's that they still think our anger is "unbelievable".
Redrain85 elsewhere posted the link to the full article:

http://palgn.com.au/article.php?title=2K+Australia%3A+BioShock+Postmor tem&id=9552&sid=eb3e0746229ae733e657dcd491eab74f

The incomprehension shown here is, to be as charitable as possible about it, lazy. As even the last few posts here have shown, no-one is seriously saying publishers shouldn't have *some* anti-copying measures, but all the serious concerns that have been raised about about this version of DRM and how it was implemented are ignored in favour of silly one-liners.

The PR wins continue...

Also, a lot of people have consistently distinguished between the developers and the publishers when attributing blame in the DRM backlash; there has actually been, at the beginning at least, a lot of positive sentiment for Irrational/2K Boston etc.

It seems obvious that the posters here know a lot more about the company's pedigree than its Australian lead programmer does. But his responses are another in a series of events which make the lines between publisher and dev seem less clear cut.

Quite a performance overall.

[jd10013]

could something like this be next?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5f7ada2c-9966-11dc-bb45-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

[Silus]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6183311.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=morenews&tag=morenews&title&2=
(Reminder: 2K is just a brand of Take 2)

The guy there justify the need for activation to avoid 0-day crack coming from the manufacturing factories and do not compromise sales of the console version because of a pirated PC one.
Either this is pure PR-speak or the guy is completly incompetent.

To achieve the same goals, there is no need to use online activation, either with or without install limit:
- to protect the console version from pirated PC copies, there is a dumb and efficient solution : delay the PC version
- a more convoluted solution is to indeed do not burn the exe on the disc (thus protecting the title before release date), but make the exe available only on D-day in a classic free-to-download, free-to-distribute and free-to-copy-around patch. The enclosed exe would contain a classic CD protection to prevent casual piracy.

Anyway, this do not excuse the complete lack of prior notice on the issue and further misleading statementw, either intentional or because of pure incompetence.

Although, the guy promises that Take 2 will not use the same tools for their next games, strangely the activation has NOT been removed form Bioshock yet, even if it no more served its so-called purpose. And as this guy is not a business representative but a simple programmer, his words on the topic are worth nothing.

Of yeah, and the best part he's that they still think our anger is "unbelievable".

Regarding the interview, is that person for real ?
So, they infested the PC version of Bioshock, to protect consoles ?

I would like to leave a question to 2K Elizabeth, since she, more than once, told me, that there was no priority to them. PC or console. It was all the same for them. Can you explain to me what's this then ? Completely alienating PC users, in order to protect the console version ?

Truth at last. The guy's comments are dumb, but at least he admitted to their obvious priority. I'm starting to think that the team responsible for the PC version, actually didn't do much more than support the implementation of this scheme, since the PC version stinks of console version.

So, PC users had huge problems, just to install/play the game, due to their idiotic copy protection system and he finds it "unbelievable" that people were upset. He also conveniently forgot to mention, that these people were the ones that bought the game! They are NOT pirates!!!

There's really no saving grace for these people. They didn't learn from their mistakes and these sort of copy protection schemes, will continue in their games. So be it. I had decided long ago, not to buy anymore games, published by 2K. This interview just assures me I was right in doing so. Go ahead and dedicate yourself exclusively to consoles. I prefer to have no games from you, than to have the problems you gives us, just to play the games we want to buy.
Just remember something: piracy exists in consoles too...This actually seems to be news for you...

This piece of advice is free, with no activations and limitations.

[toto952]

Redrain85 elsewhere posted the link to the full article:

http://palgn.com.au/article.php?title=2K+Australia%3A+BioShock+Postmor tem&id=9552&sid=eb3e0746229ae733e657dcd491eab74f

Thanks for the link, haven't followed those forums since a while.

Indeed, this programmer responses are completely pathetic.
He really fails to see what are the long term problems with online activation (that is, when servers disappears) and completely forget about the install limits and the total lack of prior notice. Basically, he just sum up their whole activation scheme as a simple exe to download, while we all know the protection is much more...

It seems that even months after the facts, some people at Take 2 has not yet understood what they have implemented... And treats the ones who complained to be either stupid infantile morons or wannabe pirates in search for an excuse... A very Starforce-like stance...

One sentence puzzled me yet:
[Steam has] got their own DRM system on top of your game, but their attitude is that once it’s sold, that’s all right … they don’t have the long term activation process …
What does it mean? On one hand, he claimed they aimed for a launch period protection (console cannibalization, manufacturing leaks, ...), on the other, it ditches Steam because it's not long term enough.
Well, I guess we have a sort of answer about when the activation will be removed...

Oh by way, I don't know if it has been already mentioned, but, in the "activation servers going down" series, have you seen what happened with the MLB (http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2007/11/mlb-game-downloads-still-inaccessible.html)? Those types of problems happens regularly with activation-like DRM systems, and I don't see why Take 2 is different, especially seeing how "lazy" some of their employees are...

[Silus]

Redrain85 elsewhere posted the link to the full article:

http://palgn.com.au/article.php?title=2K+Australia%3A+BioShock+Postmor tem&id=9552&sid=eb3e0746229ae733e657dcd491eab74f

I can't believe what this guy says. I actually said they didn't do a console port, but focused on the PC version to be a PC game. Glowing objectives ? Lack of inventory screen ? Chambers that revive the player with no penalty ? Low res textures ? Does this ring a bell ? This is NOT a PC game. This is a console version ported to PC, with some "nice" DRM scheme...

It seems obvious that the posters here know a lot more about the company's pedigree than its Australian lead programmer does. But his responses are another in a series of events which make the lines between publisher and dev seem less clear cut.

Quite a performance overall.

Well, if anything, it pretty much confirms that the dev team and the publishers had the same idea. Which is exactly the opposite we thought at the time Bioshock was released. At least I thought this was a publisher's only decision and that the dev team would be very sad, to see their game, being infested with such DRM scheme. I was wrong. They seem to be as responsible as 2K was, for this debacle.

[Silus]

I can't believe what this guy says. I actually said they didn't do a console port, but focused on the PC version to be a PC game.

It was supposed to be "He actually said they didn't do a console port, but focused..."

[ddave]

Thanks for the link, haven't followed those forums since a while.

It wasn't on here--it was on another forum that no-one else ever mentions so I thought I'd better not either!

And I didn't get at all what he was saying in the bit you quoted either. Especially as Steam imposes activation without time limits (no orange box for me then) so it doesn't even seem to be accurate.

What happened with MLB?

[trexmaster]

could something like this be next?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5f7ada2c-9966-11dc-bb45-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Well, as far as I've understood what's written in the plan that article mentions (yes, I'm French, and yes, I've read the report and the agreement, which are publicly available, here for the report (http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20071123/981693_accord_mission_olivennes_v2.pdf) and here for the agreement (http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20071123/981708_rapport.22.11.07.pdf)), they're going to (amongst other things which I won't mention since they don't have a direct impact on customers) :

- shut down the internet connection of those who's piracy activities are proven (multiple times), after several warnings
- backup the abandon of DRM
- backup the experimentation of filtering solutions based on watermarking/fingerprinting rather than port/protocol filtering, with a maximum starting delay of 2 years

And honestly, I don't see how any honest citizen could be against that. My only problem with those proposals is that the authority that would ask for the shut down of someone's connection wouldn't be a judge but some "independant authority".

But I'm going to write to my deputy to try and see if that could be changed.

[toto952]

What happened with MLB?
The Major League Baseball (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071107-major-league-baseballs-drm-change-strikes-out-with-fans.html) used to sell downloadable videos protected with DRM "X".
One day, they decided to switch their services from DRM "X" to DRM "Y".
Of course, previously sold videos stopped working (http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2007/04/mlbs-digital-download-service-potential.html) (April).
During 6-7 months, the MLB refused to refund or fix (migrate to the new DRM) their previously sold videos.
It seems that, in the end (http://mlb.mlb.com/subscriptions/download/dds_entry.jsp) (November), they finally allows the redownload of almost all contents (some are still missing) with the new DRM.

So when a company official told you that activation problems/limits can be easily solved calling technical support... well, it can take them 6 painful months and a LOT of bad publicity (I also bet some of their users filled complaints) before they start fixing the problems...

[jd10013]

And honestly, I don't see how any honest citizen could be against that.


perhaps this kind of approach is better than DRM, securom, activation ect. Sure, It could be bipassed fairly easily, but I think it could deter a lot of casual pirates. I don't know if this would fly in the US though, although most of the court cases involing piracy have gone in favor of the content providers. It would be interesting to see how the major access providers in the US would view such a law.

[ddave]

tot952:

:eek:

I just hope that enough bad experiences like that will put some sense into the distributors.

(I had to add the last bit because the post was too short otherwise. :rolleyes: )

[Destop]

_/ Pre-post \________________
First off, small correction for my 2nd to last post: where I said "Tages", I meant "Starforce". Sorry about that.

In what follows, "you" might be directed at Martin Slater or to 2K (Australia) as a whole. This should be clear from the context, my apologies if it isn't. With that out of the way:

_/Post \________________________________
Martin Slater, you're awesome. Being a lead programmer for a game software company is a great job, but burdened with great responsibilities, so kudos for having come true on them and delivering. Kudos on developing Bioshock (PC), kudos for realising the game which is a tremendous challenge. You and your team are the best, I greatly enjoyed the demo which runs as smoothly as my system could allow it. You are entitled to a lot of $$$ because of it.

But wow, that PalGN transcript about your 22-10-2007 speech is awesome too. I mean:

When asked about how they reacted to the at times bordering on hostile reaction in public forums to their use of copy protection, Slater was upfront and honest - 'they hurt'.

Honest and upfront indeed. I'm glad they hurt, because when something hurts, it makes people think about how to make the pain go away. And possibly rethink it. The admission that future 2K products will not go down the same path of Bioshock PC in another part of the speech makes me breathe a sigh of relief. Sure, new DRM measures may be similar, but at the same time small changes may result in a massive, hopefully positive effect on the market.

In a rather candid and insightful statement, Slater speculated that, "PC people are funny - they’ll have the Internet, they'll go online, they'll go on a forum, and then they’ll ***** that they've got to go on the Internet … it's one of those things. But, you've got to live with it. They’re the brightest people, and they’re moaning ... it’s one of those problems.

No, this is not candid and insightful. Wherever did you see us moan about the internet activation process? It was the only indication on the back of the box with IMPORTANT next to it, Martin. Reasonable, "bright" people have no grounds to moan about it, so they don't. We moaned about other, much more important things and for those IMHO, yeah, 2K deserved that (non-physical) kicking.

"Whatever you do, you're going to lose, you're going to take a kicking."

Community Manager 2K Elizabeth feels the same way. Is that the new sentiment over at 2K?

You lose, always?

There's no reason to feel that way. A lot of people are on your side, too. A lot of people don't care what blokes like me care about, or they care but don't let that stop them from happily playing and enjoying the game. The Xbox 360 version was done right. There are fans taken away by the universe you've created, who are in turn inspired to make drawings, movies and what not. Doesn't that even out the negativity? Isn't the real picture that the game (and post-game support) have done a lot of things right, but also a lot of things wrong, and that those should be taken at face value and subsequently ironed out?

Speaking of the detail behind their copy protection measures, Slater explained, "We had a downloadable EXE, we didn't ship with with the executable on the actual DVD, that was to mitigate the risk of production DVDs going walkies between the manufacturing process and actually turning up on the shelves ... we didn't put the executable on the DVD, which had other benefits. It gave us an extra six weeks develop time to clean up any bugs because we could publish that afterwards, but this ended up putting a requirement on the actual game where you needed an Internet connection.

So while the missing .exe is an understandable measure from this perspective and vaguely alluded to on the box, it never occured to any of you that just maybe, "limited activation credits" should also be put on the tin? Or "SecuRom present, which does not uninstall along with game"? Not relevant enough? Or that that "internet activation required" announcement just might be a little too vague if it entails missing .exes, something not done before?

"And, we got our 13 days, we were happy, but we just got canned. Everybody hated us for it. It was unbelievable. You'd think we were kicking people in the bollocks, really. So, it’s a complex issue in the PC world."

Not everybody. Some people applauded you going crack-free for a couple of days.

Wait, I'll do it, too *claps*.

However, the rest, me included, didn't really care, because it wasn't the reason for their aggravation. Their reasons, well, you can read them in two long threads on this forum here. And if you do, you'll see that you *did* kick people in the bollocks, but in a non-physical way as you misled them, gave the game DVD a non-physical expiration date (the SKU has the potential to become a coaster, to diminish in value, which is a serious FY to any self-respecting collector) and assumed a stance where we are guilty until proven innocent, and so we vocally disapprove - and kick back. Non-physically, of course.

"I think the big lesson we learned out of this is that your customers hate you.

Yeah, customers are all hate smurfs. They enter shops filled with products they hate and buy software from and thus give money to companies they hate. That's what customers do.

You don't seriously believe that, do you?

They want the game, but they want everything at the same time. We read things on the boards, like, oh, you’ve got security, you make us download it, so I’m going to crack this … thank you very much, love the support, that’s really good. It comes down to people just needing the excuse. There’s a lot of people who will go and buy the game if you force them to do it, but if you give them a reason to justify their actions, they’ll take that justification and they’ll rip you off."

While I've read that kind of "things" on the board too, I also read a lot of other things. Valid things, reasonable things, no knee-jerk reaction "Gurr I'll pirate j00!" things. Those do not count? If that's the kind of comment you take to heart from all the posts here, if that's the kind that sticks out enough to merit attention in your talk, then thank you very bloody much.

When I first posted here, I was full of respect and adoration of the game developers, since most of them hail back to the System Shock era, and Bioshock was going to be a spritual successor. There certainly wasn't any hate back in the store, because I loved the game demo, my system met the minimum requirements, and all the game needed was an internet connection to activate upon install. It said so, right on the box. The disapproval came, and had three months to evolve once I discovered the real situation and witnessed the kind of support me and my peers received. Bioshock PC "postmortem", indeed. I still have the adoration for System Shock's sake, but statements and practises like these make me lose respect, which has to be earned again in order to be able to return to business.

In short: your DRM implementation/IP protection scheme is a major turn-off for customers in key areas. It sucks IMHO. Go back to the drawing board and create one which people can reasonably accept for future products. And, possibly, somehow, rectify the Bioshock PC situation.

I can dream, can't I? =)

[Silus]

<snip>

I can dream, can't I? =)

This interview pretty much proved that dreaming is all you can do. There's no doubt now, that the dev team and the publishers, were in the same boat, in what DRM scheme would be applied to Bioshock.
It is unfortunate. I actually thought the "bad" guys were located @ 2K only, but that's far from the truth and Martin Slater pretty much confirmed that.
The fact that similar measures will be applied to their future titles, makes it crystal clear for me to avoid any game from them. In their eyes, that obviously means I'm a pirate, but maybe a pirate wouldn't be as concerned with this, after those "13" days...just maybe...

As you (Destop) pointed out, Martin Slater only reads the "I'll pirate j00" comments, which is yet another way of ignoring what we've been saying, ever since Bioshock was released and the DRM scheme was uncovered completely. It seems we, PC Gamers, are "funny" and if our rights are being trampled, we should just suck it up and do nothing.

Martin,
Congratulations on your success on the consoles. That was your priority anyway, so screwing the PC version because of the console version, must've been worth it.

[Destop]

As you (Destop) pointed out, Martin Slater only reads the "I'll pirate j00" comments, which is yet another way of ignoring what we've been saying, ever since Bioshock was released and the DRM scheme was uncovered completely. It seems we, PC Gamers, are "funny" and if our rights are being trampled, we should just suck it up and do nothing.

Well, it is more or less the same strategy Bethesda uses to validate their new approach to Fallout 3, which is a Realtime FPS with Pause elements (called V.A.T.S.) to have a "pseudo" turnbased mechanic in there. The hardcore fans do not approve and express this. The reaction from the devs? "Oh, but those guys are stuck in the past, they just want more of the same from a 10 year old game". Or something along those lines.

Which just isn't true. I've followed the debate on No Mutants Allowed for example, and have read some valid arguments - some I agree with, some I don't - and the direction they would have wanted to see the game evolve in. The majority certainly didn't want to be stuck in the past. They are mainly in disagreement with the fact that Bethesda is calling this Fallout 3 (a true sequel) whereas they see it as a spin-off. And that it's Oblivion with Guns, of course =).

And yeah, my last post was hellishly long =) sorry

[ddave]

As you (Destop) pointed out, Martin Slater only reads the "I'll pirate j00" comments, which is yet another way of ignoring what we've been saying, ever since Bioshock was released and the DRM scheme was uncovered completely. It seems we, PC Gamers, are "funny" and if our rights are being trampled, we should just suck it up and do nothing.


Absolutely. As someone representing the company his efforts are pitiful. Which is ironic given that statements by people who could be considered to be speaking officially are usually treated very twitchily by 2K.

But if he can't be bothered to look through the threads properly before speaking, or ask a responsible person on the staff who has, once again there is a good (and not that long :D) one-post summary (from Destop) which will put him right

...if he ever visits.

[matches81]

Greetings!Basically, P2Pers always said that P2P activity increased CD sales, because it allowed them to know new artists.
Music industry, on the other hand, always said P2P activity caused a decrease in CD sales, because it allowed P2Pers to obtain the music for free.

As in most cases, the reality/truth should be somewhere in the middle of those opposing views.

What the study concludes is the amount of CD sales increases in just 1 download per month, 0,03(6) CDs per month increase, quantifying the P2Per view of CD sales increase.
However, to defend that P2P activity doesnt affect negatively the amount of CDs sold is just ridiculous. Only need to check the CD sales charts since P2P and broadband became commom.

Even the study (which I consider pro-P2P, if by anything else, by the words used) found no evidence of a "relationship between P2P file-sharing and the purchasing of electronically-delivered music files" (page 35 of the studys PDF).
My interpretation is that P2Pers already have a digital copy of the music, obtained via P2P, so they dont need to buy the music from iTunes or other similar service. The increase in CDs sales can be explained by the value P2Pers give to a hard copy of the music for their music collection shelves.

Basically I agree with you: The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

But I have to disagree with you about one thing: It is not a sufficient proof for piracy killing the entertainment industry if CD sales are going down "since P2P and broadband are common". For one, publishers and record labels themselves offer alternatives to CDs since then. On the other hand it's not uncommon for a product group to get less attractive for people.
I agree it's rather logical that piracy harms the entertainment industry to a certain extent. But you probably won't be able to determine how far that really goes.
I think for music the extent is probably diminuitively small. "Piracy" in that industry was around ___way___ before broadband. Making a tape copy of CDs was incredibly easy and doable for everybody. And it was done by everybody. Still, people bought albums they loved, and they still do.
My take is that piracy makes it really hard for mediocre music / games / movies, but real quality will always sell great. Take a look at games with less draconian copy protections, Oblivion being a prominent example.




On topic:
I second Destop's long post regarding Slater's speech / interview. But I want to add a bit and address Martin Slater directly, too:
Take a step back, look at the copy protection scheme currently in place for the PC version of Bioshock and then think about whether you wouldn't be upset about these measures if you were a customer.

I'll sum these measures up for you, because (at least in the story I read) you left some important parts out:

a) The DVD is shipped without the .exe. It will be downloaded when the game is activated.
b) You have to activate the game online.
c) You get five activation credits with no robust way to get those credits back.
d) You aren't told that SecuROM is installed on your system.
e) SecuROM isn't uninstalled when the game is uninstalled.

Please note that this was the case when Bioshock was released. Nearly two months after release we are gifted with a revoke tool, that only works properly if you pay no regard to Microsoft's advice for the proper usage of the Windows OS (having an admin account for install and a non-admin account to play the game).

So, basically you're selling an incomplete game (missing .exe) that has to be activated online to be complete. The missing .exe sadly makes it impossible to just take online activation out of the picture without slapping a "patch" onto your product to make it complete. Additionally, we get five credits for activation, without any notice of that fact on the box or EULA. If those credits are used up we are at the mercy of 2K, meaning we have to mail or phone them and ask for the permission to further play the game we bought. As we have no guarantee in any way we will be granted new credits (those credits aren't mentioned anywhere except here on the forum), we are literally at 2K's mercy.
I won't go into d) and e) any deeper, it has been posted many times that this is just and plainly illegal in several countries.
How can you be surprised your customers are pretty upset about this?

Developing for PC gamers isn't that hard. Just don't do things that obviously will piss off many customers. If that wasn't obvious to you, you should have taken a step back before release, but you probably didn't have the time to do so (which is not meant as an insult).
But it is insulting for a PC gamer to read your statements about these measures and especially our reactions now:

I think the big lesson we learned out of this is that your customers hate you.
Your customers don't hate you. Customers are basically indifferent towards you. They can love you because of a great game (like Bioshock). They can get pretty nasty if you infringe their rights and break laws. But don't you think you'd deserve that then?
For some people their rights are pretty important, so don't be surprised if even a great game like Bioshock can't keep every customer happy with that kind of copy protection.

We read things on the boards, like, oh, you’ve got security, you make us download it, so I’m going to crack this … thank you very much, love the support, that’s really good.
Uhm... at least in Germany there's nothing wrong with circumventing copy protection measures of software you legally bought. And it should be fine with you, too. It would be something different if I reverse engineered the game and took parts of it for my own financial benefit. But they're not doing that. They're basically finding a remedy to the mess this copy protection is, btw a job 2K should be doing.

Well, that's about it. It's sad to see that the developers actually had a part in the decision regarding the copy protection. Until now I thought this was all the publisher's doing, but obviously you don't have that much regard for your customers, either.
That said: I won't buy another game from 2K (any department) until you guys get your heads straight.

[Silus]

<snip>

Please note that this was the case when Bioshock was released.

Small correction. Bioshock was released with only 2 install credits. If we didn't complain as we did, everyone would still have only these 2 and most likely no revoke tool, which doesn't work as it should anyway...

[ryant]

That Slater guy comes across as a real slime ball, someone who thinks everybody should be happy just because 2K released a game for the PC, as though we are starved of fairly generic FPS. Interesting how he seems more concerned that the console sales would be impacted by the possibility of a cracked PC version rather than trying to encourage PC sales in itself. Reading his remarks it is very clear he hasn't a clue about PC gamers but just sounds pompous and foolish.
Really glad I never bought his game and certainly will never buy one in the future. And I can't even be bothered going looking for a cracked version to play, I prefer to buy games by companies that support their product and threat their customers with respect

[bioshock_fan]

threat their customers with respect

Lolz:p . "I'm gonna threaten you with respect!"


P.S. : I know you meant to say "treat their customers with respect". Darn lack of an edit button, eh;) !

[mark_t50]

That Slater guy comes across as a real slime ball, someone who thinks everybody should be happy just because 2K released a game for the PC, as though we are starved of fairly generic FPS. Interesting how he seems more concerned that the console sales would be impacted by the possibility of a cracked PC version rather than trying to encourage PC sales in itself. Reading his remarks it is very clear he hasn't a clue about PC gamers but just sounds pompous and foolish.
Really glad I never bought his game and certainly will never buy one in the future. And I can't even be bothered going looking for a cracked version to play, I prefer to buy games by companies that support their product and threat their customers with respect

I kinda agree with you, I just didn't get the bit where he talks about not wanting to lose console sales due to pirated PC versions of the game. He seriously needs a reality check if he doesn't think there are plenty of people playing pirated 360 versions of the game.

He admits that they got slammed and in his words 'everybody hated us for it. It was unbelievable'. I just don't get what he finds so unbelievable about it. If he doesn't understand why so many people got angry then he must have his head stuck in the sand. A 2 year old child could have told them what would happend when you sneak DRM into a demo and then release a game with one of the most restrictive forms of DRM/activation systems yet seen. It's not like the pc gaming community were going to welcome this with open arms.

I sent both my 360 and PC versions of Bioshock back when this all first kicked off, I posted my disspleasure on a few threads in here then left, I only poked my head in here to see if this was all still rumbling on. If 2kgames insist on contiuing to use this form of protection, then I will insist on not purchasing their games. Oh, and it's not the DRM I object to. It is the activation system, I refuse to use a revoke tool and I refuse to be forced to call expensive overseas numbers just to install a game. I hope 2kgames see sense someday :( because I would like to try Bioshock one day.

Still, things have moved on, so back I go to playing UT3, COD4 and Crysis. All of which allow me to install it as many times as I like :)

[matches81]

He admits that they got slammed and in his words 'everybody hated us for it. It was unbelievable'. I just don't get what he finds so unbelievable about it. If he doesn't understand why so many people got angry then he must have his head stuck in the sand. A 2 year old child could have told them what would happend when you sneak DRM into a demo and then release a game with one of the most restrictive forms of DRM/activation systems yet seen. It's not like the pc gaming community were going to welcome this with open arms.

Obviously he doesn't understand that. On the other hand, some people here don't understand all the fuss, either, so sadly enough, he's no exception there. It seems caring about your rights and thinking a bit further is enough to fall into the "conspiracy wacko" category nowadays.


Still, things have moved on, so back I go to playing UT3, COD4 and Crysis. All of which allow me to install it as many times as I like :)
don't forget The Witcher, if you have any love for RPGs. Luckily there are enough publishers out there that use more or less sensible copy protections.

[Silus]

don't forget The Witcher, if you have any love for RPGs. Luckily there are enough publishers out there that use more or less sensible copy protections.

I've spent enough for this season alone, with Crysis and Quake Wars, so I don't think I can try The Witcher, before it reaches the economical bin.

just Quake Wars is completely clean. I don't even need the DVD in the drive to play it.
As for Crysis, it does come with SecuROM and I do need the DVD in the drive to play, but there are no silly install limits or the need to download the executable from some server. And guess what, it's selling like hot cakes. You don't need idiotic copy protection schemes, for a game to sell well. You just need a good game. I don't understand how 2K, a company that published Oblivion, which was a huge success and sold millions of copies, while not having anything more than a DVD check, thought that doing this to Bioshock was a good idea.

[trexmaster]

I've spent enough for this season alone, with Crysis and Quake Wars, so I don't think I can try The Witcher, before it reaches the economical bin.

just Quake Wars is completely clean. I don't even need the DVD in the drive to play it.
As for Crysis, it does come with SecuROM and I do need the DVD in the drive to play, but there are no silly install limits or the need to download the executable from some server. And guess what, it's selling like hot cakes. You don't need idiotic copy protection schemes, for a game to sell well. You just need a good game. I don't understand how 2K, a company that published Oblivion, which was a huge success and sold millions of copies, while not having anything more than a DVD check, thought that doing this to Bioshock was a good idea.

Because Bioshock isn't such a great game anyway ?

On PC at least, it's just another FPS, and there are a bunch hitting the shelves this year.

[impar]

Greetings!For one, publishers and record labels themselves offer alternatives to CDs since then. On the other hand it's not uncommon for a product group to get less attractive for people.
I agree it's rather logical that piracy harms the entertainment industry to a certain extent. But you probably won't be able to determine how far that really goes.Thats the thing, its impossible to quantify how bad piracy hurts legitimate sales.
All entertainment products are substitute to one another, so, even if CD sales are down that can be explained with the increase in iTunes and similar services; even if music sales are down (CDs and iTunes) that can be explained with the increase in sales of other entertainment product (games, movies, ...), etc.

Pc gaming is taking a beating, though:
According to NPD, sales of PC gaming software in 2006 were down substantially from 2001, when $1.5 billion worth of games were sold. Last year, total sales were just $970 million. (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9819600-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20)
And it happens to be the most pirate-friendly platform around...

[impar]

... that doesnt excuse the lousy way Bioshock treats its PC paying customers.

*lousy no-edit option...*

[BloodRayne]

Greetings!Thats the thing, its impossible to quantify how bad piracy hurts legitimate sales.
All entertainment products are substitute to one another, so, even if CD sales are down that can be explained with the increase in iTunes and similar services; even if music sales are down (CDs and iTunes) that can be explained with the increase in sales of other entertainment product (games, movies, ...), etc.

Pc gaming is taking a beating, though:
According to NPD, sales of PC gaming software in 2006 were down substantially from 2001, when $1.5 billion worth of games were sold. Last year, total sales were just $970 million. (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9819600-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20)
And it happens to be the most pirate-friendly platform around...

And console sales are up. So there goes the 'beating'. ;)

[Destop]

I don't understand how 2K, a company that published Oblivion, which was a huge success and sold millions of copies, while not having anything more than a DVD check, thought that doing this to Bioshock was a good idea.

Their "13-days-uncrackable" system needed an ocean to be tested in. If consumers had swallowed it, Bioshock PC Lead Programmer Martin Slater would have said, "It's incredible, our system works, survives the 13 days crack barrier and people loved us for it. It will be standard in our coming products".

Too bad they didn't.

[matches81]

Pc gaming is taking a beating, though:
According to NPD, sales of PC gaming software in 2006 were down substantially from 2001, when $1.5 billion worth of games were sold. Last year, total sales were just $970 million. (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9819600-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20)
And it happens to be the most pirate-friendly platform around...

As others have pointed out, console games are getting bigger every year. For example in 2001 there were close to _no_ FPS games on consoles (actually, Halo was released for the X-Box in November 2001, and AFAIK this was the first proper FPS game on consoles, I don't count crappy console conversions like Doom for the S-NES for example). Prior to 2001, consoles were mainly for beat'em ups, jump'n runs, sports games and japanese RPGs. Now they offer almost every genre in a very enjoyable way. Many developers chose to ditch the PC crowd for the consoles (Mass Effect is a recent example).
As the variety of games for consoles increases and developers increasingly embrace consoles instead of PC games it's simple logic that PC games' sales are going down, while console games' sales are going up. Still, the games industry as a whole is the fastest growing industry in the world, with no sign of that changing in the near future.

But, I see that we basically agree: Just because you're the victim of a crime doesn't make it acceptable that you yourself start commiting crimes as some kind of retaliation. Furthermore letting your legit customers pay for the crime of others is just stupid, leading only to pissed off customers and a damaged reputation. That leads to less sales, if there is no proper damage control. 2K lacks any kind of damage control.

[qnwekr]

Hello everyone, I've been following this thread for a while, and in reply to a posting made by someone a few pages before this one, saying that he doesnt see a solution to this, hey, I had an idea, not just for copy protection schemes on games, but on any kind of content (music, movies, software, etc) industry. If people either to buy and play games, (or to download them from the web) need their PCs on and computers need electricity to work, why doesnt the content industry make some sort of agreement with the power industry, whereas users can download everything they want, for a flat fee that you pay with your utilities monthly balance sheet, or whatever it's called.) I mean, with internet over power lines being tested currently, this couldnt be such a far fetched idea

[impar]

Greetings!And console sales are up. So there goes the 'beating'. ;)They are. So are gaming capable PCs...
But, I see that we basically agree: Just because you're the victim of a crime doesn't make it acceptable that you yourself start commiting crimes as some kind of retaliation. Furthermore letting your legit customers pay for the crime of others is just stupid, leading only to pissed off customers and a damaged reputation. That leads to less sales, if there is no proper damage control. 2K lacks any kind of damage control.Yep.

[Silus]

Because Bioshock isn't such a great game anyway ?

On PC at least, it's just another FPS, and there are a bunch hitting the shelves this year.

I can't really say much more, based on my limited experience with Bioshock. I only played the demo and a little bit of the full game, in a friend's computer. As you probably know I didn't buy the game due to these idiotic copy protection measures.
My point was that everything Bioshock needs, to sell well, is to be a good game. It doesn't make sense to have a good game and ruin it with draconian DRM schemes. And it makes even less sense to have a mediocre game (which I'm not saying Bioshock is) and the same DRM scheme.

It's obvious by Martin Slater's words, that the PC version was not important and while it exists, it's infested with DRM, just to not cripple console sales.

It's also clear now, that the PC demo debacle occurred, not because they were optimizing it, but because they needed to infest the demo, with the same DRM scheme and make sure, it would also not hurt console sales.

And you know what, now that I think of it. when Martin says that customers "hate them" is probably the reason why, 3 months later, the PC version has yet to see a patch, while Xbox keeps getting updates. I don't remember any company taking so long to release a patch. No patch fixes everything. I know, since I'm a software developer. This "idea" of providing a mega patch to fix all the issues found, will fail.

[matches81]

And you know what, now that I think of it. when Martin says that customers "hate them" is probably the reason why, 3 months later, the PC version has yet to see a patch, while Xbox keeps getting updates. I don't remember any company taking so long to release a patch. No patch fixes everything. I know, since I'm a software developer. This "idea" of providing a mega patch to fix all the issues found, will fail.
I don't know why the patch takes that long but I agree with you that the mega patch idea is ridiculous. It will probably fail, but even if it doesn't: What was the point of delaying crucial fixes for people who can't play the game at all just to include them with smaller fixes later?
That's the most stupid idea together with the DRM and those two things make Bioshock the most obvious support fiasco I've ever seen.

[Jakester]

The whole thing is disgusting.

Oh, and apparently, BioShockWins has been testing "the patch" but can't tell us how great it is because he's under an NDA. Why wouldn't 2k want to tell paying customers what to expect from the patch in terms of fixing known bugs?!

[BioShockWins]

The whole thing is disgusting.

Oh, and apparently, BioShockWins has been testing "the patch" but can't tell us how great it is because he's under an NDA. Why wouldn't 2k want to tell paying customers what to expect from the patch in terms of fixing known bugs?!

I am not testing the patch!

Although there was a beta patch sign up about a month ago...

[matches81]

The thing that just keeps nagging me every time I come here is the complete lack of communication from 2K.
- The patch is supposedly imminent for weeks now, there was a beta signup for the patch over a month ago and we still don't get a look at the changelog or any "hints" what they're fixing.
- People are complaining about the online activation and SecuROM issue for over 3 months now and still no official statement for that either.

So, the main interest for customers with problems is left without any news (the patch) and the biggest issue I've ever seen in any company's official forum is just ignored. Does 2K even have anyone directly employed to take care of customer relations or anything like that? (that would be a question for the mods, perhaps they know something about that)
It's just pretty frustrating. And if they have someone employed for that: Quit your job because either you don't want to do that work or you're not allowed to. ;)

[yogibbear]

The thing that just keeps nagging me every time I come here is the complete lack of communication from 2K.
- The patch is supposedly imminent for weeks now, there was a beta signup for the patch over a month ago and we still don't get a look at the changelog or any "hints" what they're fixing.
- People are complaining about the online activation and SecuROM issue for over 3 months now and still no official statement for that either.

So, the main interest for customers with problems is left without any news (the patch) and the biggest issue I've ever seen in any company's official forum is just ignored. Does 2K even have anyone directly employed to take care of customer relations or anything like that? (that would be a question for the mods, perhaps they know something about that)
It's just pretty frustrating. And if they have someone employed for that: Quit your job because either you don't want to do that work or you're not allowed to. ;)


I completely agree.

Go onto any other game dev website and they are happy to discuss issues. Makes for a much more generally happy community. And none of this would have happened.

If you had allowed the community to simply operate like:

Community: "Hey, we don't like your activation system, what's up?"

2k: "Oh... sorry about that. We're planning on removing it at ...."

Community: "Awesome, thanks for responding to our concerns".


Community: "Hey, that UE3 engine has some funky widescreen implementation"

2k: "Oh woops, our bad... we forgot to fix that properly. Will get that out in a couple of weeks. Pretty simple fix really, just need an authorisation from the higher ups ;) "

Community: "Thanks, for responding so fast, and properly understanding the issue. You guys and gals at 2k are so awesome. You can have my babies."

Community: "Hey, so this game is a bit buggy. Some of us can't play it because of <insert condition X>"

2k: "Yeah we've noticed <condition X> and are working on it in our patch which should be released ...."

Community: "Thanks for the regular updates, you guys rock."

[matches81]

yes, that is close to what I would like to see from a company. And some companies actually manage to deliver that.
But in this case I'd even settle for a weekly "Hey guys, patch is coming along, currently these issues are adressed. Expect the patch before <insert very rough estimate that gets more accurate with the patch nearing here>", or a mere "Yes, we know you guys don't like our DRM mechanisms, but they won't change in 2007 or 2008, so take your consequences."
Basically I would take anything over this complete lack of information.

[DRMonster]

BioShock is one of many AAA titles this year that I wanted to own. I heard about the copy protection when it was first released and thought "oh, wow, that sucks" and didn't buy it immediately. Months passed.

Best Buy had BioShock for $25 this past weekend. I gave in and bought it, thinking it was a great deal. Then I remembered the copy protection.

I must say, what a totally $*#$@ ridiculous decision you people at 2K made. I could have pirated the game at this point, but I prefer legitimate copies, especially for good games -- I like to support good work.

In this case, though, I strongly considered grabbing myself a less-than-legit copy of your game. I considered returning the game to Best Buy instead of supporting your terrible copy protection scheme.

But I didn't. I didn't return the game, and I have supported you. Now please, instead of inconveniencing me and my fellow PC gamers who actually bought the game, get rid of this DRM.

Leave a DVD check, fine, but the limited installs and the missing files absolutely must go. There's a reason you guys were the first to use such a method, and that's because it sucks.

[LostCustomer]

I heard about BioShock and thought that I would suggest it to my wife as a Christmas gift for me. After reading about all of this DRM stuff, and how it can foobar one's computer, has now scared me off. Certainly this is not what 2kgames intended, and I hope that they straighten out this mess they created by June so that I can get it for my birthday.

The same anti-piracy thing happened with TurboTax a few years ago and I didn't buy until they became more reasonable. They realized that they lost more money in inconveniencing good customers than they lost through piracy.

[Hangmn]

One more informed consumer..Does it feel good to make an INFORMED decision?

[rcthardcore]

How can a game fubar a computer?

[BloodRayne]

How can a game fubar a computer?

In one of the first crashes I had with BS my BIOS got corrupted... and I wasn't the only one that happened to. That's pretty much 'fubar' in my book. :p

[trexmaster]

How can a game fubar a computer?

Google around for "Starforce" and "problem(s)". You'll find quite a lot of answers to your question.

[ZipADeeDoDa]

WIP PC Patch:

This will essentially be a new installer program. It will contain all the missing files from the original retail DVD version as well as files that have been updated for bug fixes.

The new installer will know how to extract and install the game files that exist on the original retail DVD. SecuRom is not installed, however, CD-Key input will still be required and a DVD check will exist.

The only potential confusing issues for customers would be that they either need to disable autorun on their DVD drives, or understand that they need to cancel out of the autorun initiated installer, and instead run the downloaded installed provided by the patch.

I'm sure this is being worked on right now! /sarcasm

C'mon guys, you know you want to :) I'd feel confident in subsequent BioShock installs, and proudly know I have a copy of Bioshock to add to my collection that is mine forever (not "rented", not dependent on the existence of some server, and not requiring the eternal add'l purchase $$$ of an internet connection at all times -- has to be there if you ever plan on re-installing -- to make my initial expenditure useful).

[matches81]

WIP PC Patch:

This will essentially be a new installer program. It will contain all the missing files from the original retail DVD version as well as files that have been updated for bug fixes.

The new installer will know how to extract and install the game files that exist on the original retail DVD. SecuRom is not installed, however, CD-Key input will still be required and a DVD check will exist.

The only potential confusing issues for customers would be that they either need to disable autorun on their DVD drives, or understand that they need to cancel out of the autorun initiated installer, and instead run the downloaded installed provided by the patch.

I'm sure this is being worked on right now! /sarcasm

C'mon guys, you know you want to :) I'd feel confident in subsequent BioShock installs, and proudly know I have a copy of Bioshock to add to my collection that is mine forever (not "rented", not dependent on the existence of some server, and not requiring the eternal add'l purchase $$$ of an internet connection at all times -- has to be there if you ever plan on re-installing -- to make my initial expenditure useful).

Would be nice, but probably won't happen. I think the guys that can't play the game now can be happy if they can play it early 2008 and that would be it.

[DRMonster]

Eh, on second thought, I'm going to return the game. I may be passing up a great one but I don't want to support this kind of DRM.

[Silus]

Would be nice, but probably won't happen. I think the guys that can't play the game now can be happy if they can play it early 2008 and that would be it.

There should be a wiki entry for "2K's Time". "Imminent" this far means never.
"Soon" means 2 months (for the revoke tool)
"Near future" this far also means never (to remove the online activation)

It's over guys. It's just no use. They got the money of unknowing customers and are laughing about it. We had lies and deceit, concerning the demo and uninstall process that would get install credits back. We had the "your brother can't play for free", which 2K said they didn't endorse, but is exactly what their copy protection system does and recently we had Martin Slater's words on the subject and how he feels it's unbelievable that people were upset, with this idiotic DRM scheme, which he clearly stated was done only to protect consoles sales. Oh and of course, his comments on how PC Gamers are "funny". It's been 3 months and the only thing we got was an half baked revoke tool, that doesn't work as it should. By staying here and trying to put some sense into them, we're just giving them too much credit. Credit that they really don't deserve.

[Destop]

There should be a wiki entry for "2K's Time". "Imminent" this far means never.
"Soon" means 2 months (for the revoke tool)
"Near future" this far also means never (to remove the online activation)

Not quite, Silus, "Soon" = 10 days for the revoke tool. Although it took 2 months to release, the time frame between the actual "soon" and the release was 10 days.

"Imminent" is undetermined since it was changed into "soon", which was then basically changed into "the day when we are ready".

By staying here and trying to put some sense into them, we're just giving them too much credit. Credit that they really don't deserve.

I don't think they're interpreting it as such. Bioshock PC Lead Programmer Martin Slater proved this by filtering out all the valid points and issues raised here and playing a little drama where they, the Programmers of the Light (hey, I can play a little drama, too =), have been scolded and cast away by the PC Consumer Hordes who are all - without exception - stepping into the Darkness because they fail to see the Wisdom in the Enlightened New Path of DRM with non-corporeal expiration dates. Tidings bode ill for the Light.

[rcthardcore]

Last time I checked, StarForce was not a game. It's malware/rootkit.

[Silus]

Last time I checked, StarForce was not a game. It's malware/rootkit.

It's not a game, but it was applied to games, just like SecuROM is.

[yogibbear]

Last time I checked, StarForce was not a game. It's malware/rootkit.

Oh we've all been confussed.

No wonder. Starfox indeed.

[zifn4b]

You know, this is really sad from a consumer point of view. I check back with the Bioshock site and forum every now and then to see if the SecuROM activation has been removed yet so that I can finally play this game.

I have been staunchly opposed to purchasing this game due to the copyright mechanism is uses. However, today, I was thinking well maybe since this is such a great game I'll forego that and actually buy it since it's now down to $29.99 and after all there are now ways to uninstall SecuROM after you uninstall the game.

Then I start reading all the FAQ information about machine activation vs. user activation and what you can revoke and can't revoke and what you should do depending on what scenario you run into where you can't reinstall and that's when I stopped. I said to myself, my gosh this is all so confusing to me and I've been a software developer for 20 years! I can't imagine how confusing this has to be to an average consumer.

All the philosophical issues about copy protection and digital rights management aside, don't you think something is wrong when you introduce a piece of software that is technically unnecessary for the product to run that just confuses and frustrates the consumer? I mean if you can't make DRM simple and transparent to the consumer, how do you think they will adopt it? This is the reason yet again, no matter how great BioShock is as a game, that I have decided to play something else that is easy to use and doesn't have these headaches associated with it. I am a busy person and I just don't have time to troubleshoot this sort of thing and sit in line in a support call queue just to play something I purchased.

It is quite a shame. In any case, I am still waiting for you to make good on your promise to eventually remove the copy protection. When that happens I will purchase a legitimate copy of your game until then my wallet is closed to you.

Cheers! :)

[DRMonster]

^

Good for you, man. And you're totally right, this ridiculous DRM is unnecessary at this point. Great, they deterred piracy for two weeks after launch, but now what purpose does it serve other than to inconvenience us?

[rcthardcore]

They should have used either FADE or TAGES with just a simple DVD check. It would have saved us a lot of problems.

[darious]

That Slater guy comes across as a real slime ball, someone who thinks everybody should be happy just because 2K released a game for the PC, as though we are starved of fairly generic FPS. Interesting how he seems more concerned that the console sales would be impacted by the possibility of a cracked PC version rather than trying to encourage PC sales in itself. Reading his remarks it is very clear he hasn't a clue about PC gamers but just sounds pompous and foolish.
Really glad I never bought his game and certainly will never buy one in the future. And I can't even be bothered going looking for a cracked version to play, I prefer to buy games by companies that support their product and threat their customers with respect

I have no doubt that Slater will eat those words before long. The music industry is caving in to reality on all fronts*. There is no way that the video and gaming industries can try and keep DRM alive once music rights are returned to the buyers.

*From Ars Technica - things to be thankful for 2007
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071122-six-things-to-be-thankful-for-in-technology-2007.html

Finally, DRM is dying

Ken Fisher: 2007 is the year of the infamous Steve Jobs open letter on DRM, the year that EMI got brave enough to kick DRM to the curb, and even Universal is considering the idea. I've long argued that DRM isn't about piracy, it's about selling your rights back to you. With the growing backlash against DRM, smart players are realizing that their customers don't want to be treated like thieves, even if the MPAA has the gall to suggest that they do. Yet, even the MPAA knows that customers are tired of seeing their fair use rights trampled, coming out earlier this year to call for a change in the industry.

DRM isn't dead yet, but the writing is on the wall. DRM for music will likely not last another year. DRM for video is another matter, as those players remain convinced that their products need protection. Once DRM dies in the music scene, however, the pressure will be on Hollywood to explain why it continues to trample on fair use.



-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 2
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 5
Indirect assists: Unknown

[5a\/a63D33M0N]

With any luck, DRM will come to an end completely. BUT, even if it does, you will still have greedy companies (such as 2K) implementing some form of limitations and/or restrictions, such as needing to connect to a server just to complete the software you purchased (again, such as 2K), or to simply just play. And that may be fine for a multi-player title, I see no problem there, but a single player title like bio****, just unacceptable.

With any luck, other companies that actually care about the customers who make them what they are, will see the downfalls of such limitations and restrictions, and choose not to use them.

With any luck, companies such as 2K, and/or companies that utilize the same limitations and restrictions that 2K has, will ultimately go out of business, leaving the field clean, clear and level for the companies that actually wish to thank their customers by developing great titles that don't infringe on the consumers rights and ownership of their own systems.

Will we ever see such a thing? I'm am unsure, although it would seem a few companies have already shown promise. Thankfully, due to 2K's blatant disregard for their customers, we are all more informed, and able to decide more clearly, which companies deserve our money. 2K does not, seeing that months later, PC users are STILL awaiting a patch, which has been determined to actually exist finally (although I feel it's too late). Has this patch addressed the largest issues surrounding the game? ABSOLUTELY NOT, the intrusive DRM will remain intact, as well as the limited nature of "activations". Obviously they haven't learned, or they just don't care, I believe it's the latter. As one member already stated, they have your money already, that is all that apparently matters to them.

With the "nazi" attitude of the admins, and the intense action taken against anyone who has spoken up in this fiasco of a release, 2K has spoken louder than they ever could have even though their silence has been deafening on the very issues that have been a major problem since day one. Even if there were competent employees running the site and answering questions, they had already shown their true intent. Their main concern was to protect the money rolling in, not the product rolling out. It worked, but it won't ever again...

Not a company I would ever trust again, no matter how much free PR "goodies" or download-able content they hand out...

I have said "with any luck" several times, but in all actuality, it isn't about luck at all. All of those things we would be lucky to have can be a reality if everyone made it so with their wallet. Don't support companies that take your money and treat you like a criminal, all the while violating consumer laws and regulations. Ironic isn't it? It's very clear who the REAL criminals are...

[matches81]

I have no doubt that Slater will eat those words before long. The music industry is caving in to reality on all fronts*. There is no way that the video and gaming industries can try and keep DRM alive once music rights are returned to the buyers.
I really hope DRM goes down for good. I rent a lot of DVDs lately and it really pisses me off when I can't watch a movie on my PC because of some copy protection. My PC is hooked to a 24" widescreen and a surround system. Instead I have to watch the movie on my PS2, which is connected to an old, shoddy TV and stereo sound. Thank you very much.
The result of this simply is: I don't buy DVDs anymore, because I can't be sure whether I'll be able to watch them the way I want to or not. I haven't searched for those movies on the internet, but I'm sure that, if I would do so, I'd still find them for download without any hassle (except the illegality, of course).

Same goes for games: Thanks to 2K I won't buy games unless I know about the copy protection, activation and all the other nonsense they want me to go through before I'm allowed to play. If those things are acceptable, I'll begin to think about buying the game.

Well, at least we learned that we have to inform ourselves much more than most of us used to do before purchasing a game and that logic and economics obviously don't mix too well.

[japester]

It's amazing how the last few posts completely ignore the rampant, casual theft that has caused companies to develop DRM in the first place. It's not like "greedy" corporations came up with this overnight just to inconvenience their paying customers. The problem lies in the casual disregard for property rights among consumers.

If you guys are right about people boycotting all companies that try to protect their property rights, what we will be left with is companies that only produce games with low development costs, for example, casual games. Who wants to spend 1-3 years and tons of cash to develop games that will simply be stolen online the day they come out?

Until people look at both sides of the issue--developers protecting their work from thieves AND users wanting an easy, convenient gaming experience--all they are producing is noise, not solutions.

This is why such one-sided thinking makes me so angry. You guys are all for cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's like wanting to abolish police because you heard a buddy of yours got pulled over in a random traffic stop and that proves that all police do is inconvenience innocent people. It's not like you ever broke the law, so why should a system even exist that might treat you like a criminal if you do something shady? Plus, cops sometimes shoot people and you know for a fact that they aren't 100% effective. Then, when you completely get rid of them, and you expect people to flock to your neighborhood because of how "free" it is, you're surprised because nobody wants to live or work in your crime-infested slum. Until people choose to do the right thing and stop stealing online, we need a deterrent system so that game developers will consider the risk of making great games worthwhile.

[darious]

Another nail in the DRM coffin.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071202-roll-over-beethoven-deutsche-grammophon-ditches-drm.html

Money shot:

Now, the Universal subsidiary Deutsche Grammophon has announced a plan to drop DRM, and it's taking another page from the NBC playbook: offering this content on its own site. In this case, the DRM shackles are nowhere to be seen, and given the amount of time and effort invested in Deutsche Grammophon's new site, the label seems to think that high-bite rate MP3s are the future. Perhaps Universal, too, has come to the same conclusion.

DRM free isn't the wave of the future - it's now.

-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 2
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 5
Indirect assists: Unknown

[darious]

The problem lies in the casual disregard for property rights among consumers.


Oh yeah - I forgot. As a PC user I am _automatically_ a thief and deserve to be treated like one.

Get over yourself - you know d*** well that you wouldn't go to any store that did a body cavity search everytime you walked out the door.

Why should we, as consumers, all be treated as thieves and blithely accept the destruction of our rights to our purchases on OUR machines?

[purplerose1414]

japester, your entire argument falls when you look at the various companies that release some big name games without the DRM fest, and a basic user key system that easily cracked within a day, and yet they still made a profit. Your thinking of the poor company and the poor developers is what enables them to bend us over.

[jd10013]

It's amazing how the last few posts [B] The problem lies in the casual disregard for property rights among consumers.

.


a Byproduct of the entitlement society we've created. Funny though, I can remember when a anticipated CD was released and would sell a couple million copies. Now 500k is considered great.

and then there's radioheads latest pay what you want attempt to show people will support music they like:


" according to a study of online sales for the album during the first 29 days of October. There were 1.2 million visitors to the album site, while 38% of global downloaders of the album were willing to pay to do so, according to Internet monitor comScore. The remaining 62% chose to pay nothing."

thats the problem in a nutshell. Though everybody will try to tell you they would gladly pay for what they download, they're not thieves after all, they usually don't.

[skye]

Hello to you all. I am Skye, from yet another game that is "infected" with securom. The Sims 2. Two games have this in them that I happened across, unfortunately, and I sympathize with the lot of you. We have not gotten any new information either, and this is wearing a bit thin for us as well.
I'm sorry to have interfered with your discussion, but I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I do hope they come up with something to get rid of the securom in our games.
Thank You,
Skye

[DRMonster]

Who wants to spend 1-3 years and tons of cash to develop games that will simply be stolen online the day they come out?

They can't prevent it. All they have done is hurt the paying customer because the pirated copies of the game bypass the ludicrous DRM.

[BloodRayne]

It's amazing how the last few posts completely ignore the rampant, casual theft that has caused companies to develop DRM in the first place. It's not like "greedy" corporations came up with this overnight just to inconvenience their paying customers. The problem lies in the casual disregard for property rights among consumers.
It's not the consumers, they are the ones buying the thing in the first place. That's why the rest of your arguments don't seem to stick as well, because they are based upon layers of flawed assumptions.

The basic fact is that DRM is a knee-jerk reaction to piracy made by companies that have no idea of the real or imagined impact that piracy has. Piracy is a fictional fact: it cannot be measured, it can only be estimated. And those estimates themselves again are based layers upon layers of flawed assumptions resulting in a system where nobody is happy in the end.

The customer always wins. It won't be long before the natural market will expell DRM in favor of some other, more reliable, system. As long as developers start don't acknowledge the fact that there are serious side-effects to these DRM implementations, and as long as developers don't want to make these measures more user-friendly I, and many other customers, will continue to act upon their rights to complain. It is the only means of having positive change happen.

Because in the end, and you can mark my words, if the people are happy with the DRM system (by means of user-friendliness and transparency of use) so will the developer and distributor. That's why steam is a much wider accepted system than Securom, it's much more transparent in it's use. And lo.. users can actually remove it if they want... and lo and behold.. it doesn't need rootkit like software.. and lo.. it actually works a lot better than securom as well

[matches81]

It's amazing how the last few posts completely ignore the rampant, casual theft that has caused companies to develop DRM in the first place. It's not like "greedy" corporations came up with this overnight just to inconvenience their paying customers. The problem lies in the casual disregard for property rights among consumers.

Amazing. I thought we already had pointed out a lot of times that the root of DRM most probably is piracy (there's no other logical explanation for its invention). I, at least, agree with you that piracy caused companies to develop DRM.
It was also pointed out many times that the current idea of DRM as basically cutting down on usability of the product is flawed. Legit customers have serious issues with the current measures taken by "the companies". Still, the current measures fail completely to protect the property rights of the companies. Don't you see that there is something wrong?

Yes, 2K tells us that it is a great success that Bioshock wasn't cracked for supposedly 13 days. (I doubt those 13 days. Closer to the release of the game, forum posts here indicated more something like 6 to 9 days for a crack) Well, great. 2K goes on to tell us that this boosted the sales of the game incredibly, both for PC and XBox 360. Do you really believe lots of people that were initially going to pirate the game were not patient enough to wait for a crack, even if it would take 3 weeks or a month?
I'm sorry, I don't think so. And there's no proof to convince me otherwise. Instead there actually is proof that the measures 2K has taken with Bioshock are unnecessary: There are lots of games that went retail without measures even close to the mess here and they still sold pretty darn well. Bioshock is not the first game to sell over a million copies you know? But it is the first game to screw customers over that hard.


If you guys are right about people boycotting all companies that try to protect their property rights, what we will be left with is companies that only produce games with low development costs, for example, casual games. Who wants to spend 1-3 years and tons of cash to develop games that will simply be stolen online the day they come out? as said above there are lots of high budget games without such ridiculous hoops to jump through that still make a lot of profit. That's a proven fact. Your statement is an assumption. And it is an assumption that goes straight against the proof we can see in the current world.

This is why such one-sided thinking makes me so angry. You guys are all for cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's like wanting to abolish police because you heard a buddy of yours got pulled over in a random traffic stop and that proves that all police do is inconvenience innocent people. It's not like you ever broke the law, so why should a system even exist that might treat you like a criminal if you do something shady? Plus, cops sometimes shoot people and you know for a fact that they aren't 100% effective. Then, when you completely get rid of them, and you expect people to flock to your neighborhood because of how "free" it is, you're surprised because nobody wants to live or work in your crime-infested slum.
Again, you ignore everything said in this thread before for a dozen times. Current DRM measures are far from 100% effective, their effectiveness is damn close to 0%. If the police would have close-to-0 effectiveness and would still kill people, I'd say: Get rid of it. But that's not the case. Furthermore: I didn't do something shady. If I did, I wouldn't be here complaining, but playing the game happily ever after ;)
Is it one-sided to look at the current world out there and see other games with half-way sensible or completely sensible DRM schemes that sell lots of copies? I don't think so. It is a bit one-side to constantly ignore all the points made in this thread, though.

Until people choose to do the right thing and stop stealing online, we need a deterrent system so that game developers will consider the risk of making great games worthwhile.
Everybody here understands the fact that developers want to protect their property. It's their right to do so and it's a prudent thing, too. Obviously, you don't understand that they should be using reasonable measures to do so. Perhaps take a look at other publishers or even games from 2K from the past (look at Oblivion, sold lots of copies)?

[5a\/a63D33M0N]

This is why such one-sided thinking makes me so angry. You guys are all for cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's like wanting to abolish police because you heard a buddy of yours got pulled over in a random traffic stop and that proves that all police do is inconvenience innocent people. It's not like you ever broke the law, so why should a system even exist that might treat you like a criminal if you do something shady? Plus, cops sometimes shoot people and you know for a fact that they aren't 100% effective. Then, when you completely get rid of them, and you expect people to flock to your neighborhood because of how "free" it is, you're surprised because nobody wants to live or work in your crime-infested slum. Until people choose to do the right thing and stop stealing online, we need a deterrent system so that game developers will consider the risk of making great games worthwhile.

Is it not "one sided" when I buy a game that failed to inform me that my purchase will not be complete, EVEN though I walked out of the store with the physical disk in my hand mind you, until I go ONLINE and DOWNLOAD the rest of MY purchase? Is it not "one sided" when I am forced, WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE or any form of DISCLOSURE or CONSENT to install a program which may interfere with the operation of my system and the programs I CHOOSE to run on MY SYSTEM? Is it also not "one sided" when I am informed that I am limited in the amount I can install the product I purchased, for MY USE, AFTER I purchased and opened it already?

All the above isn't just "one sided", it's COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!

By your statement, everyone who owns a computer is guilty of piracy until they prove themselves innocent. :rolleyes: If I purchase the game, OBVIOUSLY I had no intention to "pirate" the title, therefore I should be given a way to REMOVE the infectious DRM, being that I already paid for it.

PLEASE, stop using weak analogies that have absolutely no relevance to the issue. Cops are cops, good or bad, they are there. BUT, to expand a bit on your flawed analogy... Yes, cops are there to prevent crimes, and yes, there are instances where they don't do their job properly, BUT, for the majority of people out there following the rules and not breaking any laws, they NEVER have a run in with the police. Your analogy is flawed being that even though people can run the software, and use it until their eyes bleed, THEY DON'T WANT IT (the crap DRM) THERE, where most people actually feel safe knowing the police are just a call away, especially if they are full law abiding citizens, because the presence of police isn't INTRUSIVE and HIDDEN...

If you can't understand that, then there is no point in pursuing any further conversation since it is you that, as far as I can see from viewing past posts, that is extremely "one sided" in favor of 2K and their policies...

Regardless, the point I want to make here is the fact that the DRM is there "supposedly" to protect it from "thieves". Well I bought the title, that means I should be given a way to REMOVE the intrusive DRM from my system without it affecting my purchased software. Is that not a right I retain being I OWN the system I'm installing it on? It sure is...

[darious]

Wow.

Walmart is (supposedly) _ORDERING_ it's music suppliers to start ditching DRM.

http://consumerist.com/consumer/drm/walmart-hates-drm-329435.php

I'm posting the link to the consumerist site instead of the ars technica one as I like the comments from the peanut gallery.

DRM is now the kiss of death in music. Like BloodRayne said - the customer always wins. In the long run anyway. Not with Bioshock or 2K Games but in the long run...





-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 2
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 5
Indirect assists: Unknown

[darious]

And just when you thought that companies bowing to anti-DRM backlash was limited to music only:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=334

Money shot:

When SP1 ships sometime in early 2008, it will strip away one of Vista’s most annoying features and remove one of the most persistent objections to Vista’s adoption. Microsoft plans to remove the infamous “kill switch” from Windows Vista when SP1 is installed, restoring the Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) program to its original role as a series of persistent but nonlethal notifications.

...

One of the bullet points on Kochis’s PowerPoint deck was especially blunt:

“Based on customer feedback, we will not reduce user functionality on systems determined to be non-genuine”

Those italics are in the original, suggesting that the WGA team has finally realized that they need to react forcefully to a year of embarrassing WGA glitches, server outages, and nonstop customer complaints.

Hmmm... glitches, server outages, and nonstop customer complaints....



-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 2
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 5
Indirect assists: Unknown

[2K Elizabeth]

hey guys,

i've noticed that this thread has become pretty off-topic in terms of bioshock-related stuff, and is more about industry DRM. i think we should move it into the off-topic section.

someone can create a new topic there if they so choose!