Remaining SecuROM/Activation talk here.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

well, we actually have 2 threads on this issue (one about more recent news, the revoke tool concerning activations) and that one IS stickied. i'm just keeping this here because... well. it makes people happier.


Wow, if that isn't an insult to those who have raised valid issues, I don't know what is!

"Just keeping this here because... well. it makes people happier" That phrase alone just shows the level of disregard and contempt for those of us in the PC community, and our attempts at voicing our RIGHTS of not having to legally put up with hidden things forced upon us.

There we have it folks. Apparently this issue is not a concern, or a priority, nor is it in any way an indication of any acceptance on 2K's part of the level of problems it has caused for customers.

This thread is kept here mainly to "appease" those of us who are not at all happy about having software installed on our systems without consent, knowledge, or any way to remove it, aside from many other valid points.

Thanks for the final clarification that this subject/topic is not really an "older issue", but an issue that 2K has never intended on addressing, or fixing.

P.S. the "edit" function was removed because people were abusing it. (I believe some were going back and editing their posts after a mod did, but I am unsure, maybe a mod can clarify that for us)

[2K Elizabeth]

Wow, if that isn't an insult to those who have raised valid issues, I don't know what is!

"Just keeping this here because... well. it makes people happier" That phrase alone just shows the level of disregard and contempt for those of us in the PC community, and our attempts at voicing our RIGHTS of not having to legally put up with hidden things forced upon us.

There we have it folks. Apparently this issue is not a concern, or a priority, nor is it in any way an indication of any acceptance on 2K's part of the level of problems it has caused for customers.

This thread is kept here mainly to "appease" those of us who are not at all happy about having software installed on our systems without consent, knowledge, or any way to remove it, aside from many other valid points.

Thanks for the final clarification that this subject/topic is not really an "older issue", but an issue that 2K has never intended on addressing, or fixing.

P.S. the "edit" function was removed because people were abusing it. (I believe some were going back and editing their posts after a mod did, but I am unsure, maybe a mod can clarify that for us)

it's not disregard. there are duplicate threads, for all intents and purposes, the stickied thread is the most relevant at the moment. that does change, but per my usual rules, this thread would be merged. but it makes people happier to have two, so i keep them.

second, the edit button was taken away not becasue a mod changed posts -- that in fact never happened. people were breaking rules and then deleting the rules before i could ban them, after they had been warned by a moderator.

[Hangmn]

They are not in any way duplicate threads, one deals with a half assed attempt at activation recovery and this one deals with felonious actions on the part of an entertainment media producer.

[Destop]

second, the edit button was taken away not becasue a mod changed posts -- that in fact never happened. people were breaking rules and then deleting the rules before i could ban them, after they had been warned by a moderator.

... you can't alter the board setting so that the edit button is only available for about 5 minutes after posting the post? That way, small corrections can be made and by the time the offending poster can edit away text to get out off a warning, he can't edit anymore.

... or what about a "preview post" option? For the purpose of cleaning up posts, that should work fine.

[2K Elizabeth]

... you can't alter the board setting so that the edit button is only available for about 5 minutes after posting the post? That way, small corrections can be made and by the time the offending poster can edit away text to get out off a warning, he can't edit anymore.

... or what about a "preview post" option? For the purpose of cleaning up posts, that should work fine.

there is a preview post button. :-)

EDIT: to use the "preview post" button, click "quote" to quote the person, or "post reply" at the bottom of the thread -- rather than using the quick options.

[Silus]

... you can't alter the board setting so that the edit button is only available for about 5 minutes after posting the post? That way, small corrections can be made and by the time the offending poster can edit away text to get out off a warning, he can't edit anymore.

... or what about a "preview post" option? For the purpose of cleaning up posts, that should work fine.

What for ? There are plenty of posts in this forum, to which I gave examples of, where 2K fanboys insulted everyone on sight and got way with it. They didn't need an edit button, because they can do whatever they want, without punishment. "Offending" posters in these forums, are part of what 2K considers a "small group" that has "older issues"...:rolleyes:

[Silus]

it's not disregard. there are duplicate threads, for all intents and purposes, the stickied thread is the most relevant at the moment. that does change, but per my usual rules, this thread would be merged. but it makes people happier to have two, so i keep them

"It makes people happier"...
No 2K Elizabeth, it doesn't. If anything, it's the only thread left, that deals with these issues. And why ? Because YOU closed the original thread, because YOU thought the thread was getting out of hand. And why did it go out of hand ? Because a certain Mr Bubblez was trolling and posting nothing but crap. But did you ban him and removed his posts ? Of course not. You just closed the thread and that's it.

The revoke tool thread, deals with revoke tool issues, mostly about install credits. This thread is about more than that, as the topic itself mentions. It's about SecuROM and Activation issues.

You moved this thread yet again, because it's growing fast and even though it probably won't reach the size of the original thread, moving the thread around, will most likely decrease the number of new posts, just like you did, with the original thread. There are no duplicate threads here, just lame justifications for a already known 2K tactic: the "sweeping under the rug" one.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

"It makes people happier"...
No 2K Elizabeth, it doesn't. If anything, it's the only thread left, that deals with these issues. And why ? Because YOU closed the original thread, because YOU thought the thread was getting out of hand. And why did it go out of hand ? Because a certain Mr Bubblez was trolling and posting nothing but crap. But did you ban him and removed his posts ? Of course not. You just closed the thread and that's it.

The revoke tool thread, deals with revoke tool issues, mostly about install credits. This thread is about more than that, as the topic itself mentions. It's about SecuROM and Activation issues.

You moved this thread yet again, because it's growing fast and even though it probably won't reach the size of the original thread, moving the thread around, will most likely decrease the number of new posts, just like you did, with the original thread. There are no duplicate threads here, just lame justifications for a already known 2K tactic: the "sweeping under the rug" one.

I agree, but I must now limit myself and my words, or I will be banned.

I'm fed up with all the warnings, threats and accusations that I am "trolling", or "insulting" other people, but as the newest made up rules state, I can not talk about that. Although I'm at a loss as to why not a single MOD, has ever given me a warning, but the same single person continues to do so. :rolleyes: So that either says A) either all the other mods are not doing their jobs. or B) That one person has a personal problem dealing with the issues, and/or certain people. I feel If you want to remain professional, you can't take anything personal. If you wish to get personal, then take off the "mod/admin" hat, lay down the threats of banning and such, and speak your mind like the rest of us, then maybe a better dialog can be reached.

Even my posts in the revoke tool thread have ALL been removed, amazing. I thought we were allowed to discuss these things? If we are, then why are all the NEGATIVE aspects of the issues, you know, all the ones that 2K REFUSES to answer, and those who point them out, silenced and banned?

The revoke tool thread, and this thread, are two completely different issues all together. Saying this is only kept here to make people happy is a slap in the face of anyone who has a viable issue, and everyone who has installed Bioshock on their home/work PC does indeed, have a viable issue since SecuRom's implementation by 2K is completely illegal in regards to the many points that have been stated already, in this, and the other closed thread.

It's understandable the 2K themselves can't comment on that, being that they have absolutely no excuse to give, but "sweeping" everything and everyone that has anything to do with the issue "under the carpet" will not make it go away. Doing that just shows anyone who reads about what is going on (and many people are) that 2K would rather hide the problem/mistake, rather than fix it.

P.S. I'm sure this post will be designated as "trolling", and it will be deleted/edited, and I will be banned, that is the nature of this forum now, and that is pretty sad since if what I post is considered trolling, them what would the posts of "AJ Rimmer, Mr. Bubblez, Japester, etc, be considered? Ohh, yeah, that's right, 2K loyalty. :cool:

[Hangmn]

If this thread won't be stickied , then I believe we should do our pest to keep it up high...or is that trolling/spamming?

[trexmaster]

it's not disregard. there are duplicate threads, for all intents and purposes, the stickied thread is the most relevant at the moment. that does change, but per my usual rules, this thread would be merged. but it makes people happier to have two, so i keep them.

second, the edit button was taken away not becasue a mod changed posts -- that in fact never happened. people were breaking rules and then deleting the rules before i could ban them, after they had been warned by a moderator.

Hello,

This has been said before but I'll repeat it :
The stickied thread is about the "Revoke Tool", not SecuROM. I understand that the activation process is actually a part of SecuROM and that, as such it is legitimate to talk about the Revoke Tool in here. However, the opposite isn't true. People here talk about SecuROM in its entirety, what it does, not just about the Revoke Tool and the activation process.

As per your own forum rules, discussions about SecuROM belong here and not in the stickied thread. And because there are important information in here (like how to remove SecuROM without completely formatting your comp), this thread deserves to be stickied too.

[Destop]

What for ? There are plenty of posts in this forum, to which I gave examples of, where 2K fanboys insulted everyone on sight and got way with it. They didn't need an edit button, because they can do whatever they want, without punishment. "Offending" posters in these forums, are part of what 2K considers a "small group" that has "older issues"...:rolleyes:

I only mentioned these things in the interest of being able to edit and re-edit your own posts before posting them. I guess I'll always have to quote something now in order to preview/spellcheck my stuff. Editing content is something different altogether.

But you know, having no edit button is not that bad, either. Because that means the only editors around here are the moderators. So, if we ever see "edited by *moderator*" beneath a post, we know the post has been censored, and who knows what important content the moderatorship removed. And thus, we know exactly where to point the finger when a post has been censored.

[Silus]

I only mentioned these things in the interest of being able to edit and re-edit your own posts before posting them. I guess I'll always have to quote something now in order to preview/spellcheck my stuff. Editing content is something different altogether.

But you know, having no edit button is not that bad, either. Because that means the only editors around here are the moderators. So, if we ever see "edited by *moderator*" beneath a post, we know the post has been censored, and who knows what important content the moderatorship removed. And thus, we know exactly where to point the finger when a post has been censored.

Exactly! Like in this post:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230063&postcount=180

If he was a "whiner", he would've been banned, until we are all extinct. But he's part of the "nothing is wrong" crowd and so his post is simply edited...

[trexmaster]

Oh yeah ! And as I left to eat before I last posted, I still hadn't seen that this thread had been moved.

Why is that and where was it moved to still puzzles me, but at least one thing is very clear now : you guys at 2K simply don't care about our legitimate concerns about SecuROM.

We have voiced several very simple steps to make us happy and accept SecuROM but you simply refuse to see them.

Moreover, you treat us like stupid children (and thieves too) by trying to hide this from public view (under the rug as Silus said), which is a childish, if not irresponsible, attitude.

In any case, you, 2K, as a company, managed to accomplish in 2 months what it took the music industry several years to do : you've completely destroyed whatever trust I had in you. It's a pity because you've made some very good games I bought and still play (Civ4 and Oblivion most notably), but I'm fed up of being treated like a criminal even if I try to stay honest and I'm fed up of your attitude towards my concerns.

Remember, you were the ones who started to **** around with this thread, moving it, banning users for having a different opinion, and gave your blessing to your fanboys that kept insulting us.

I've tried to keep cool but now I'm really angered. I'm getting out before I say something that will get me banned.

[trexmaster]

I leave for a coffe and the thread is moved again... Sigh... Seriously, is the "Move Thread" button close to any other that you use frequently ?

[Silus]

I leave for a coffe and the thread is moved again... Sigh... Seriously, is the "Move Thread" button close to any other that you use frequently ?

It's a mess. The thread was moved, but it still shows up, in the list of threads of the General Game Discussion sub-forum.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Exactly! Like in this post:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230063&postcount=180

If he was a "whiner", he would've been banned, until we are all extinct. But he's part of the "nothing is wrong" crowd and so his post is simply edited...


Fantastic example! A post such as that gets to stay with little to no punishment. I called the "revoke tool" a band-aid to the issue of activation in the corresponding thread, never insulting anyone, and all my posts in that thread were deleted, and then I get warned for "trolling". :rolleyes:

The more we get silenced, the louder the message becomes.

I'm still actually waiting for my question to be answered, you know, the one I asked as to how 2K can feel they have a right to install anything on a users system without consent? What is their justification for breaking the laws of several different countries?

I leave for a coffe and the thread is moved again... Sigh... Seriously, is the "Move Thread" button close to any other that you use frequently ?

Someone may unfortunately be trying to accidentally delete it while they are moving it. :D Where is it currently? It still comes up under general game discussion for me. :confused:

[Destop]

In any case, you, 2K, as a company, managed to accomplish in 2 months what it took the music industry several years to do : you've completely destroyed whatever trust I had in you.

Same here. While, for example, I think I'd have a wonderful time talking about other non-2K games, PCs and consoles with 2K Elizabeth, the things which have happened here - or rather, which 2K have decided to let happen - on a professional level is, well, let's just use a euphemism and say there is a LOT to be learned by the staff.

I've tried to keep cool but now I'm really angered. I'm getting out before I say something that will get me banned.

Heh, you're in the phase I was in one-two weeks ago =). Prepare yourself for the next evolution, when you can only smirk at the absurdity of the situation and have developed a complete apathy for the game (as you won't be playing it for the next few years or so, anyway).

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

In any case, you, 2K, as a company, managed to accomplish in 2 months what it took the music industry several years to do : you've completely destroyed whatever trust I had in you.


My trust in 2K started to fade with the PC demo fiasco, which included the misinformation about SecuRom being included or not. Then it was totally obliterated when I bought the game with my money, installed the game on my system, only to find out I not only had a limited rental that was missing key files on the disk I paid for, but software secondary to the game had been installed, all of this without notification before my purchase, all of this without the ability for me to say NO before I bought it. All of this unmentioned in any way, shape or form officially, or unofficially from 2K.

Then, the final kick in the groin was when the lead dev on the game, tried to talk about the issues, and was silenced. Or, maybe he just blew off the whole thing realizing he made his money, why bother caring, and deleted his own threads. Regardless, that was it. The rest since then has just been smaller insult after insult, mostly coming from one person, but, (as I play devils advocate for a moment) maybe it really isn't their fault, maybe they are forced to do what they have been doing. Maybe... NAAAAAA :p If that were the case, all the other Mods would all be doing it too, and I personally just don't see it happening. ;)

[Destop]

Then, the final kick in the groin was when the lead dev on the game, tried to talk about the issues, and was silenced. Or, maybe he just blew off the whole thing realizing he made his money, why bother caring, and deleted his own threads.

Forum Moderator 2K Elizabeth says she accidentally deleted Ken's thread. I don't think Ken pulled the plug himself. I sent him a PM on the day he was posting on the thread (since he offered that option), and he answered it in a brief, but cordial manner. If you show that kind of profesionalism and commitment to the users and the thread, you don't explode and give up halfway through. Someone else did that for him.

[Silus]

Forum Moderator 2K Elizabeth says she accidentally deleted Ken's thread. I don't think Ken pulled the plug himself. I sent him a PM on the day he was posting on the thread (since he offered that option), and he answered it in a brief, but cordial manner. If you show that kind of profesionalism and commitment to the users and the thread, you don't explode and give up halfway through. Someone else did that for him.

Which is why the "accident" explanation is far from being an acceptable one. If it was an accident, why wasn't it restored ? Every forum has backups...

[trexmaster]

Heh, you're in the phase I was in one-two weeks ago =). Prepare yourself for the next evolution, when you can only smirk at the absurdity of the situation and have developed a complete apathy for the game (as you won't be playing it for the next few years or so, anyway).

Naaah, I've already stopped playing the game. I borrowed it from a friend on X360, because I knew about SecuROM since the demo (which I didn't download) and I didn't wanted that thing on my computer, and stopped playing after a little while. I don't know, maybe it's just not my kind of game, but I haven't found it to be that great. That plus every time I started the game I remembered SecuROM on the PC version and got angry :( I don't play games to get angry or to worry about what 3rd party software does on my computer.

If that were the case, all the other Mods would all be doing it too, and I personally just don't see it happening.

I suppose only 2K Elizabeth gets official instructions and is authorized to be 2K's voice on these forums.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Which is why the "accident" explanation is far from being an acceptable one. If it was an accident, why wasn't it restored ? Every forum has backups...

QFt, but I'm sure if he wanted to continue his talks, the thread/s could have been restored. I simply find it all to convenient that he started talking about his disappointment with certain issues, such as SecuRom, and then BAM! All gone without a trace. He could have opened a new thread if it was in fact "accidentally" deleted, and irretrievable. The fact he didn't, or that maybe he wasn't "allowed" to, speaks volumes. I highly doubt they would stifle the creator of the game to such an extent, or that he would even allow it, unless he didn't care one way or another.

[Silus]

QFt, but I'm sure if he wanted to continue his talks, the thread/s could have been restored. I simply find it all to convenient that he started talking about his disappointment with certain issues, such as SecuRom, and then BAM! All gone without a trace. He could have opened a new thread if it was in fact "accidentally" deleted, and irretrievable. The fact he didn't, or that maybe he wasn't "allowed" to, speaks volumes. I highly doubt they would stifle the creator of the game to such an extent, or that he would even allow it, unless he didn't care one way or another.

That may be, but if he didn't care, then he wouldn't have bothered with that thread in the first place. One can only wonder how much of an influence some people have over Ken.
One thing is certain: The "accident" excuse, is NOT plausible in the least.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

That may be, but if he didn't care, then he wouldn't have bothered with that thread in the first place. One can only wonder how much of an influence some people have over Ken.
One thing is certain: The "accident" excuse, is NOT plausible in the least.


Agreed, I never accepted the accident excuse, especially since the thread dissappeared very soon after he mentioned the DRM. Seems to be the ongoing theme here.;)

[matches81]

I'm still actually waiting for my question to be answered, you know, the one I asked as to how 2K can feel they have a right to install anything on a users system without consent? What is their justification for breaking the laws of several different countries?

I've asked a quite similar question several times, too. Thing is, in the last 4 weeks I'm only here out of sheer curiosity if 2K will ever get their act together. With every day that goes by without 2K either acknowledging their mistakes or announcing any actions to remedy them just proves more how much they care about their customers.

[yogibbear]

I've asked a quite similar question several times, too. Thing is, in the last 4 weeks I'm only here out of sheer curiosity if 2K will ever get their act together. With every day that goes by without 2K either acknowledging their mistakes or announcing any actions to remedy them just proves more how much they care about their customers.

Yep. Same reason i keep taking a few minutes to check out the forums. Waiting to see if 2k can fix this massive lack of communication, lack of respect, and lack of well everything that i expected.

Limited activations = worst idea ever!

Securom = a massive pain in the...

2k customer communication/support/anything = pathetic.

Elizabeth I know that you're only allowed to say "certain" things, but it does get really depressing from our perspective when you only answer "certain" questions generally to do with the 360 or with problems that are simple and have generalized answers, but you never answer the tough questions. It would be nice if you could just let 2k/Irrational tell us why they decided that it was the right thing to do to treat us like this? The longer this goes on the more and more i feel like i am some kind of low-life that has been sucked of my $89 AUD and then left to die with my securom, limited activations and crappy acknowledgement from 2k that you did anything wrong.

[Destop]

I simply find it all to convenient that he started talking about his disappointment with certain issues, such as SecuRom, and then BAM! All gone without a trace.

I am not stating my opinion on whether or not the deletion of the thread was accidental or not. The chance of knowing the truth is zero, anyway.

But, I do remember the thread. Ken was not disappointed with SecuRom, only that the shoddy activation servers were not remedied fast enough in the opening days - it's a service failure that shouldn't have happened. He also wanted to make clear that he was not responsible for the decisions on IP protection services (and there, I think, is where he went "out of line" and stated (a) name(s) he shouldn't have stated or didn't ask for permission to state). He was happy to answer our questions, but only if they were about things he was authorised to talk about. Which made sense, really.

[Destop]

It would be nice if you could just let 2k/Irrational tell us why they decided that it was the right thing to do to treat us like this? The longer this goes on the more and more i feel like i am some kind of low-life that has been sucked of my $89 AUD and then left to die with my securom, limited activations and crappy acknowledgement from 2k that you did anything wrong.

Unfortunateky, she doesn't answer "why" questions. And I think she won't answer "how" or "could you..." questions since they can be interpreted as "why" questions in disguise. Oh, and you're not left to die... you can always buy the patched, revoke tool-equipped game of the year edition later on. Or buy an Xbox 360 for the DRM-less experience...

[trexmaster]

Or buy an Xbox 360 for the DRM-less experience...

It's also a fun-less experience, but maybe I'm saying that 'cause I can't suffer playing FPSes with a pad and am too used to my good old mouse & keyboard.

[yogibbear]

It's also a fun-less experience, but maybe I'm saying that 'cause I can't suffer playing FPSes with a pad and am too used to my good old mouse & keyboard.

I think the point should be why do i have to spend 600 bucks on an xbox just to keep my pc in pristine condition and securom free and without some game that could become a drink coaster all because of the stupid limited activations.

[Pikey Joe]

I was just PM'd that I insulted someone and was warned...none of my 6 total posts are directed at any person....does this mean I am on the soon to get banned hit list?

Just start saying things like "SecuROM is wonderful" or "I love Bioshock so much I've given up my job to play it all the time".

Then you will be able to insult people as much as you like! :D

[Destop]

Just start saying things like "SecuROM is wonderful" or "I love Bioshock so much I've given up my job to play it all the time".

Then you will be able to insult people as much as you like! :D

Alas, Hangmn didn't get the chance to do that, so now he's in violation of forum prime directive 12.

[2K Elizabeth]

1. please remember some offensive posts are deleted.
2. talking about warnings, and posting them, are against the rules. everyone should take a gander at the rules, to try and avoid warnings.

thanks!

[Hangmn]

1. please remember some offensive posts are deleted.
2. talking about warnings, and posting them, are against the rules. everyone should take a gander at the rules, to try and avoid warnings.

thanks!

Where exactly the rule about line item 2?
All I have found is:

hey guys,

here's a new securom and activation talk thread. here are rules:

1. don't insult each other, me, or any mods. even in a covert way will get you banned.
2. don't talk about why members have been banned. you can talk about them, and the topics they brought up, but from here on out, i don't discuss why i ban, or why mods ban.
3. don't start flame wars. i don't care if you love or hate SecuROM, let's stay civil.

if we can't keep this one in line, i'm not going to allow anymore. and that would suck, you guys are allowed to talk about this all you want. i don't want to be a censor, but i want to spend my time working on your updates, and not on policing people's posts.

Care to direct me to the rules to which you are referring?

[2K Elizabeth]

Where exactly the rule about line item 2?
All I have found is:


Care to direct me to the rules to which you are referring?

in the rules, which is an announcement in ever forum:

12. Please do not talk about or post your warnings and bans. This doesn't add to community conversation. Keep it to yourself, and try and be a better poster next time.

[riboflavin]

I am curious if 2k plans on using securom again?

If so, will it be on the back of the box so users can decide if they still want to buy the software?

Will 2k ever let us know if they feel like they did anything wrong with the lack of notification or do they feel they did anything wrong?

I hate securom but the game was great.. but I can't say I won't buy a securom game but I can say It would weigh in my purchasing choice.

And finally, will Ken be untied from his chair anytime soon so he can post to the forums?

[Hangmn]

Well I have come to the conclusion the only way to be sure I have absolutely removed sonyDADC's secuROM is to reformat. What a shame

[ddave]

But, I do remember the thread. Ken was not disappointed with SecuRom, only that the shoddy activation servers were not remedied fast enough in the opening days - it's a service failure that shouldn't have happened. He also wanted to make clear that he was not responsible for the decisions on IP protection services [...]

But whilst not disappointed, he was also very clear that 2K had made *him* a promise to remove activation.

I said:

"In another post on here I agonised over whether I would return the game because I didn't want to buy something with no longevity (no matter how great it is) since this is a trend I don't want to vote for. It was this quote [from the joystiq interview where Ken said 'we'll move back from online activation'] which made me decide to keep it. Ken: are you backtracking? Please say no."

Ken said:

"I can only pass on what 2k promised me. I can't tell you whether they'll take back their promise, but I don't think they will. But it's not my promise, it's theirs."

...so while he was not disappointed with Securom he also reiterated he wouldn't want to see activation as the long term future for the game.

[luseferous]

it's not disregard. there are duplicate threads, for all intents and purposes, the stickied thread is the most relevant at the moment. that does change, but per my usual rules, this thread would be merged. but it makes people happier to have two, so i keep them.

Apart from the fact that they are not duplicate threads. I think merging them to gether under the title "Got SecurRom Problems" ? (Tough Sh!t)

At least it would be honest.

[darious]

Well I have come to the conclusion the only way to be sure I have absolutely removed sonyDADC's secuROM is to reformat. What a shame

There's some instructions in the beginning of this thread on how to remove it.

They are somewhat complicated but they are probably less of a time sink than a bare metal reload.

[z3razerviper]

Even the disk check in securom annoys me. Why does it have to take so long!! I mean everytime I start a securom game the stupid securom animated cursor pops up and just makes everything freeze for up to a min. This was really noticeable on C&C 3 and Bioshock. I hate Sony. The only thing they can make well anymore is TVs.......

[Hangmn]

I'm going to repost this, as it is the only way at the moment to remove securom until 2k give us something, hence it is valuable information: all credit to mhonzell. Note: proceed at your own risk. And depending on how the revoke tool works, you'll lose an activation. (might be able to recover it with that).



Oh and i'll just summarise my (remaining) main points that can be found throughout that godzilla thread:

1. why make such a draconian drm protection scheme that only hurts your legitimate customers?

2. why do #1 if you don't have proper software like the revoke tool for activation and an uninstall for securom ready? Surely it was obvious to everyone at 2k that this would be an issue?

3. why am i renting this game? why is there no .exe on the dvd that i bought? This potentially violates any kind of consumer laws... (been posted a thousand times so i won't elaborate here).

4. can 2k acknowledge that they screwed up? We want to love you. And if you can remove the activations, somehow remove securom, i'm sure we'd all get along nicely again.

This method works for Vista 32 bit?

[Hangmn]

Originally Posted by Mhonzell
Are you done with the game and want to remove the so-called Rootkit:
Method 1:
* If you know SecurROM will be involved, make a backup prior to installation and simply restore the backup when you are done.

Method 2:
Disclaimer 1: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you are reasonably computer literate and have backed-up your entire system.
Disclaimer 2: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you have no games installed which require Securom to be present.
Disclaimer 3: Only attempt these uninstallation instructions if you previously had to authorised your PC with Securom before you could play a game and that game is now uninstalled.

* Step 1: Uninstall Bioshock.

* Step 2: Remove the Securom registry entries.
The Securom registry entries are deliberately made non-removable by default. In order to remove them download the RegDeNull.mspx RegDelNull registry editing utility from Microsoft and install it on your C partition.
Run the following two commands from a Windows command prompt: "C:\regdelnull HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\SecuROM -s" and "C:\regdelnull HKEY_USERS\<Computer specific key>\Software\SecuROM -s" where "<Computer specific key>" can be determined by searching the registry for the "Securom" directory key. This "<Computer specific key>" typically has a form like "S-1-5-21-2052111302-1757341266-724545543-500". Once these two RegDelNull commands have been successfully issued the registry should be checked to confirm that these two keys have been deleted. If they are still present they will now be removeable due to the action of the RegDelNull utility.

* Step 3: Removal of the Securom service and related utilities.
Open a Windows command prompt and change directory to "c:\windows\system32". Type "uaservice7 /remove". This will stop the Securom user access service, and clean up its relevant registry entries. On the Windows command prompt type "regsvr32 /u cmdlineext.dll". Reboot and then manually delete the files "uaservice7.exe" and "cmdlineext.dll" from "c:\windows\system32". Note: Both of these files are Securom installed files which can be verified by checking their file properties (Right click - Properties).

* Step 4: Removal of Securom files under "C:\Documents and Settings".
Securom installs a hidden directory with 6 files under "C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom". The first 4 ordinary text files can simply be manually deleted once Windows explorer has been configured to show hidden files and folders. The two remaining malformed nominally unremoveable files require a special method to delete: Invoke a Windows command prompt with full Administrator privileges by typing the following into a Windows command prompt: "at <your current time + 1 minute> /interactive %systemroot%\system32\cmd.exe" e.g. "at 9:02pm /interactive %systemroot%\system32\cmd.exe". This will open a new Administrator command line when the time set has been attained. In this new command prompt change directory into the Securom folder e.g. "cd C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom". Issue the following command to show the two remaining hidden malformed files: "dir /A". To delete the two remaining hidden malformed files issue the following command: "del /F /AH *". Confirm "yes" for each of the two file deletions of the malformed files. Finally, the directory "C:\Documents and Settings\<Your Administrator name>\Application Data\Securom" can be deleted as per normal practice from within Windows explorer.
This method works for Vista 32 bit?

Love the no edit

[ReverendTed]

I know that I'm not "owed" a response or anything, but I would appreciate someone addressing these concerns (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229759&postcount=164) (link (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229759&postcount=164)).

[matches81]

I know that I'm not "owed" a response or anything, but I would appreciate someone addressing these concerns (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229759&postcount=164) (link (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229759&postcount=164)).
That question probably won't be answered, as it is a quite question as PJ_dmsfrnd and I asked several times: SecuROM's unability to be uninstalled is plainly illegal. And PJ and I asked several times, how 2K thinks that this is okay. Basically you're asking the same thing.

[matches81]

btw: I didn't mean to say that this makes your question unnecessary... just don't get your hopes up that you get an answer ;)

[darious]

...I hate Sony. The only thing they can make well anymore is TVs.......

Give it time, I'm certain that they will try and DRM that also.

"If you want to move your TV from the living room to the bedroom you will first have to obtain an unlock code by calling our 800 number, provide us with the 25 digit serial number, fax in a copy of your receipt, a photograph of the original packing material, and for a nominal handling fee of $9.95 we'll be happy to authorize you to use our TV in a second location."

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[wildquinine]

Give it time, I'm certain that they will try and DRM that also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP

[Destop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP

Yes, but that's not Sony, but rather Intel. Although Sony might have something better in the works, who knows?

[wildquinine]

Yes, but that's not Sony, but rather Intel. Although Sony might have something better in the works, who knows?

I think you'll find that Sony is implicated in the HDCP controversy as the lead designer of BluRay, as a manufacturer of HDTVs, and as a movie studio in the form of Sony Pictures.

[wildquinine]

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/hdcp-1.html

This is a nice consumer guide to HDCP. Here's the summary:

HDCP is DRM for High Definition content. Not all HDTVs, especially the older ones, support HDCP.

HD-DVD and BluRay players do support HDCP.

If an HD-DVD or BluRay disc enforces HDCP, you can't play it on your HDTV, no matter how much it cost, in HD. You get something more like standard DVD definition.

In fairness to most of the movie studios, particularly Sony Pictures, they have backed off using HDCP - for now (!) - because they don't want to shoot their best customers for buying early.

If they'd pushed this through, they'd have made a lot of the HD in early HDTVs completely useless.

Just in case the customer might be a criminal.

Becase we all know criminals are the ones who drop 4 grand on a new TV the day it comes out.

It's the same old story, but some degree of common sense prevailed here.

[Destop]

I think you'll find that Sony is implicated in the HDCP controversy as the lead designer of BluRay, as a manufacturer of HDTVs, and as a movie studio in the form of Sony Pictures.

I've been reading up on PS3 for a while now, so yes, I know. But that's just one mega-corp following a standard imposed by another mega-corp. Sony did not create the standard itself, which is why your statements, while accurate, do not mean that Sony "got busy" on their own DRM standard for televisions. And the latter is what the other posters were referring to.

But it is lovely to see what the industry is going for: the home cinema experience. You have no choice but to buy a cinema for your home, a settop-box for your home, a content provider for your home and still pay a "ticket price" for every program hosted by the provider, especially the "hot" ones.

It's nuts but in a few years, that's all we're going to be able to buy in order to watch television.

And I guess, in a sense, that's what 2K wanted with Bioshock PC, too. You don't buy a game you can freely install on your computer, you're buying a "ticket" to install the game a couple of times. Of course, once the game isn't so "hot" anymore, ticket prices will drop, but that appears to be the basic idea.

[Silus]

Over 300 replies and 10000 views. Nah, it's an "older issue" :rolleyes:

And since 2K Elizabeth considers this a duplicate thread of the Revoke Tool Sticky, but just keeps it because it "makes people happy", I guess I can combine both threads and say it's over 450 replies and 15000 views.

Definitely an "older issue"...

[Jakester]

Just thought I'd share -- SecuROM is in the TimeShift demo as well, which means that it'll be in THAT game, too.

[ARShrike]

Just thought I'd share -- SecuROM is in the TimeShift demo as well, which means that it'll be in THAT game, too.
please source

[Destop]

Just thought I'd share -- SecuROM is in the TimeShift demo as well, which means that it'll be in THAT game, too.

For fun's sake, I'll check out the Hellgate: London demo =). Unless someone beats me to it. Downloading right now, 22% complete.

[Destop]

And of course, SecuRom being on Timeshift and (possibly) on Hellgate: London does NOT imply that the final, retail version (a) will contain SecuRom and (b) will feature those awesome, unannounced "you play when we say" limited activation credits.

[Jakester]

please source
I installed the demo on my XP partition which had NO SecuROM games installed on it ever, and now I have a nice and pretty hidden SecuROM folder under AppData in my XP profile.

[AlexiR]

Off Topic
Its a good thing i don't plan to purchase or play any of those games then.
Hellgate had my attention until i read the whole pay for premium content in addition to purchasing the game.
They should just have sold it as an MMO instead of trying to say its a single player game with MMO attributes.
Timeshift didn't wow we with its previews and xbox demo so i'll pass on that as well.
Maybe in the future i will pick them up when its in the bargin bin or part of the "Best Of" game collection.
And its totally possible Securom 11 could be on them at launch whether or not you will be playing guess the activations with it is probably possible as well.

On Topic
Well read the revoke tool FAQ and my cousin is screwed he will have to contact 2k or whoever to get back his credit/credits.
A bandaid on a gushing wound this is.
Like i said before they have killed any chance of giving away or reselling this game in the second hand market place i guess they wanted everybody to have a shiny new version of bioshock and not one from Ebay purchased second or third hand.
Its tied like Vista/Xp to the pc its installed on however unlike vista or xp (where while annoying, if you switch out /replace hardware all you have to do is call microsoft to activate again) you have an install limit that requires you to jump through hoops and if you were in the first purchase circle for the game you are up a creek without a paddle.
I hope the rumor of them requiring you to mail in a receipt and picture to show ownership is false.

[ARShrike]

I installed the demo on my XP partition which had NO SecuROM games installed on it ever, and now I have a nice and pretty hidden SecuROM folder under AppData in my XP profile.
Thanks Jake. Does this mean that the best way to play might be only installing games in game-only partitions, given that 2K now has a buddy in hell.

[Pikey Joe]

Thanks Jake. Does this mean that the best way to play might be only installing games in game-only partitions, given that 2K now has a buddy in hell.

No, the best way is to refuse to buy the products.

Just tell 'em all to get lost and spend your money on booze and women instead.

[impar]

Greetings!Just thought I'd share -- SecuROM is in the TimeShift demo as well, which means that it'll be in THAT game, too.It has limited installations?

[Destop]

I hope the rumor of them requiring you to mail in a receipt and picture to show ownership is false.

Alas, it is not a rumour. A senior editor of PC Gamer magazine had it happen to him, back in august. Unfortunately, the PC Gamer blog doesn't have archives which go back that far, but you can read a transcript of the whole story here (you can still listen to podcast #97, which deals with the matter and has a nice conversation with Ken Levine about it):

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534

And here's the passage talking about taking pictures to show ownership:

... So I called the Canadian number, which went through. After four minutes on hold, I was told that the only way they'd unlock it is if I take a photo of the disc and the manual and email it to them. Wow… even Microsoft doesn’t make you do that.

Cool, huh? But don't worry, Forum Moderator 2K Elizabeth has already talked to me about it, and if you don't have a camera to take pictures with, they'll figure out something else you can prove ownership with, on a case by case basis. They're flexible.

[AlexiR]

Incredible and i thought Reactivating Xp Pro was a pain in the rear.

As for Timshift etc. we will have to wait and see if they do activations but i wouldn't be surprised , it might not be two or five but if its limited its still the same as if it was, even if they gave you 99 credits might as well just have none, legit user are the only people feeling the burn in schemes like these.

[matches81]

Incredible and i thought Reactivating Xp Pro was a pain in the rear.

As for Timshift etc. we will have to wait and see if they do activations but i wouldn't be surprised , it might not be two or five but if its limited its still the same as if it was, even if they gave you 99 credits might as well just have none, legit user are the only people feeling the burn in schemes like these.

yeah, that's one thing I've been wondering about also. If you're going to up the installation limits to a number where it doesn't hurt most of the customers: Why bother with it at all? I mean, what? Pirates don't care for those activation limits anyway.... so how is that supposed to help against piracy? Again the only thing achieved is that some legit customers are screwed and have to jump through hoops to get their game to run.

[Hangmn]

Do not give MODS an excuse to lock/delete this thread would you kindly keep it ON TOP and ON TOPIC...thank you

[Jakester]

Greetings!It has limited installations?

No way to tell at this point, although, to be fair, the Timeshift demo EULA does say that it includes third-party software (but doesn't say what software) and that you agree to whatever terms they have as well by accepting the EULA. It's mildly better than what Bioshock does. Stil, they're not honest enough to make me even tempted to buy the game, despite a pretty cool demo.

[BioShockWins]

Do not give MODS an excuse to lock/delete this thread would you kindly keep it ON TOP and ON TOPIC...thank you

Listen to him.
He is very wise-ful. ;)

[Silus]

Do not give MODS an excuse to lock/delete this thread would you kindly keep it ON TOP and ON TOPIC...thank you

It's not hard to keep this thread on topic. But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?

So there, on topic and it sums up almost every complaint made, ever since Bioshock was released.

[wilk0r]

It's not hard to keep this thread on topic. But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?

So there, on topic and it sums up almost every complaint made, ever since Bioshock was released.

Hear, Hear.

Beautifully and simplistically stated, Silus. Let's see them misinterpret that one...

[Pikey Joe]

What Silus said.

[matches81]

It's not hard to keep this thread on topic. But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?

So there, on topic and it sums up almost every complaint made, ever since Bioshock was released.

I'll add #8: Use legal copy protection schemes in the future.
Other than that: What he said ;)

[impar]

Greetings!So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?:standing ovation:

[yogibbear]

It's not hard to keep this thread on topic. But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?

So there, on topic and it sums up almost every complaint made, ever since Bioshock was released.

still don't get why this thread isn't stickied. "it's an older issue" yeah right.

[Destop]

It's not hard to keep this thread on topic. But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?

So there, on topic and it sums up almost every complaint made, ever since Bioshock was released.

Signed.

Also, since I promised it yesterday: installed Hellgate: London, no SecuRom detected. It might have eluded my grasp, but rootkitrevealer comes up with zilch, as well as a file search through everything, including hidden folders and system files.

Not that this game needs SecuRom. For who is thinking about buying this game, here's a rather interesting excerpt from the Hellgate: London game demo EULA:

3. Consent to Use of Data. You agree that EA, its affiliates, and each Related Party may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play. EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers.

If you forgive me, I bolded the most interesting passages of this paragraph. I already uninstalled the demo, because I really don't like virtually anyone accessing my property without limitation. I certainly won't buy the game now.

The paragraph on DRM in their EULA is also an interesting read. At least they're up front about it.

[Grinsomx]

that's too bad, it looks like i won't be buying hellgate london then.
i don't like that whole part in their EULA, no one gets my permission to look at anything i own without me knowing.
Besides, whatever they want to know, they could just ask...

[darious]

If you forgive me, I bolded the most interesting passages of this paragraph. I already uninstalled the demo, because I really don't like virtually anyone accessing my property without limitation. I certainly won't buy the game now.

The paragraph on DRM in their EULA is also an interesting read. At least they're up front about it.

Wow. In short and in part EA is giving as many of their partners as they wish access to personally identifying data such as the hardware and software on your system in order to provide what the vaguely defined "product support."

Sounds like they are pushing adware via spyware again.

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[japester]

But when we do and repeat the same old complaints, since Bioshock was released, our posts are sometimes considered spam and we receive warnings for that.

Well, yes, that's sort of the definition of spam.
Repeating yourself over and over, even in threads that are unrelated. ;)


So ok, I'll reiterate my complaints:

2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.


I realize you guys are pretty much set with your axes to grind, and nothing 2K does will change that. Even still, I find the above 2 "complaints" worth mentioning.

I'll thank you for using "install credits" instead of "install limits" since the former is a lot more accurate. "Limit" makes it sound like once you use them up, the software is dead. The reality (of which our perception differs) is that 2K would simply like to ask, if you are going to abnormally install their product 25 or more times in the first couple of months of release, could you please drop them an e-mail so they know you are a legitimate user and not a pirate? Once done (and again, I realize that sending an e-mail has been described as an inordinate hardship.....by people with the time to post dozens of complaints on a game forum daily, LOL), you get more installs. For free. And as far as we all know, there is no limit to how many you can get in this manner. I say "as far as we all know" because the entire firestorm about the install limits isn't based on any of you actually running into those limits, but rather is based on philosophical indignation. But I digress.... :)

I believe if not for professional game reviewers making a stink out of it when trying to install BioShock on every machine in their office, over 95% of users would not have been aware of the 2-install setup because it wouldn't have affected them. Most of us install once on one machine and we're done. I'm still using my original install almost 2 months later.

Upping it to 5 installs probably raised that to 98 or 99% of users who would not, in the forseeable future, run into any problem. But that still caused righteous ire among you noble freedom fighters.

Then the revoke tool comes out, and you've taken issue with something that has a negligible impact on maybe .1% of users. Wow. Whatever industry you are in, I wonder if your business model makes it cost-effective (or even sane) to worry about a (largely baseless) complaint affecting .1% of your user base? Hmmm.

Which ties into complaint #3 above. You feel it is worth complaining about not being able to check how many install credits you have left. Out of the initial 25. Most of which you can recover using the revoke tool. And the supply of which is theoretically free and endless. .....And you feel this number is worth obsessively complaining about.

Wow.

I repeat: Wow.

Now I know I will be a labeled an ignoramus and a fanboy, mainly because I don't subscribe to the conspiracy paranoia and righteous indignation over trivial matters that is de rigeur on teh internets, but that, too, is incorrect. From the start, I've said that I would like to see the limits and security ultimately removed as well as some way to install the game offline in the far future so we don't need to rely on servers forever (oddly, this legitimate complaint about no .exe on the disc is curiously absent from your litany). The key difference, though, is that I will allow 2K the time (more than the month or two the game has been out) to address these. And which Ken specifically mentioned in an interview just last month. Unlike you guys, I'm not ready to label 2K as demonic, pathological liars over some miscommunication with 2K Elizabeth (where she was working on bad info about the revoke tool and demo security), which I can see is still causing you guys to lose sleep over, months later.

THIS is why I take offense at all the nonsense I see being spouted. It diverts attention away from the real issues. Which I see as follows:
MAJOR
1) Make it so that I can install and play BioShock years down the road without worrying if your servers are still active.
MINOR
1) If feasible, identify the brand of security software (ie, SecuROM) on the box. I know specifics can change at a late stage, so I realize this may not always be possible.

That's all I've got. I'm not going to request perfection from a company, so I'll forgive the miscommunications from 2K Elizabeth. She admitted she goofed as soon as she found out, so I got over it. I'm also not going to request complete removal of security software as I want developers to keep investing tons of money, time, and manpower into games with confidence. I'm willing to meet them halfway on security measures, which are constantly evolving (accompanied by the requisite growing pains). I almost put the SecuROM removal tool on the Minor list, but I remembered that so many popular games use it that a removal tool would probably lead to more headaches as uninformed users deleted the software and caused their other games to stop working. If there was more evidence that it is an actual security risk or is harming systems (like Starforce clearly did), I'd be more sympathetic. I will freely admit ignorance on that one count because, although I have heard a few comments about other games' possibly causing problems and using SecuROM, it hasn't affected my system (including my NERO tools), so it hasn't been a priority.

[/REASON]

[darious]

I realize you guys are pretty much set with your axes to grind, and nothing 2K does will change that. Even still, I find the above 2 "complaints" worth mentioning....

could you please drop them an e-mail so they know you are a legitimate user and not a pirate? Once done (and again, I realize that sending an e-mail has been described as an inordinate hardship.....

And you have your fanboi status to defend. Given.

No, it's not just a matter of "sending an email". It's being forced to take ANY extra action to defend MY right to use MY game in any manner that I see fit.

And it's not just a matter "sending an email" as the process involves some pretty idiotic requirements in the first place.

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[darious]

1) Remove install limits and I'll buy the game.
2) To everyone that bought the game, provide a revoke tool that actually works i.e. multi-user account systems are allowed to revoke every install credit.
3) Create a way for us to check how many install credits we have left. We simply do NOT trust 2K on this.
4) Provide a way to uninstall SecuROM, since it was YOUR product that installed it, without users consent.
5) Don't lie about your DRM measures and write them explicitly on the box.
6) Don't lie about being able to get an install credit back, when we uninstall the game.
7) Don't lie about the PC demo not having SecuROM

And here's a last request:

How about you treat us PC users the same way you treat your loved Xbox users ?



Oh and Silus... just about perfect. Just add me into the "Don't use illegal copy protection schemes" group as well.

[matches81]

I'll thank you for using "install credits" instead of "install limits" since the former is a lot more accurate. [...]

It is astonishing that you are following these discussions for quite a while now and still haven't understood one main point: 2K is breaking laws. That's a plain fact.
- Whether 5 install credits are enough or not is besides the point. The install credits are not mentioned in the EULA and have not been made known to the customer in any way and therefore have no legal basis.
- Whether you like SecuROM or not is besides the point, too. SecuROM offers no way to remove it from the system properly. In addition it is installed without notice to the customer and therefore without a choice for him. Both is illegal.

For these facts it is completely irrelevant whether it bothers .1% or 50% of the customers. You almost make it sound like a bad thing that "professional game reviewers" made some customers aware that 2K obviously doesn't give a damn about laws and consumer rights.


Then the revoke tool comes out, and you've taken issue with something that has a negligible impact on maybe .1% of users. Wow. Whatever industry you are in, I wonder if your business model makes it cost-effective (or even sane) to worry about a (largely baseless) complaint affecting .1% of your user base? Hmmm.

I'm sorry... but I don't get that "largely baseless" bit. How is it baseless to say that the revoke tool does not work as proposed? Multiple user accounts are suggested best practice in Windows. It was announced we would get a revoke tool that allows us to get the used install credits back. We got a tool that does only what was "promised" if you're neglecting that best practice... great! Thx! And you expect everybody to be happy with that?

Furthermore: What business model makes it cost-effective to develop a tool that only maintains a useless copy protection scheme?
While removing online activation altogether might be quite an endeavour because of the missing .exe, taking install credits out of the picture shouldn't be a problem (it obviously was no problem to up the credit count from 2 to 5). And probably it would have been a lot cheaper. And, how exactly do those install credits hinder piracy in any way? Pirates don't use the online activation anyway.


PS: As far as I know a "conspiracy" involves multiple conspirators. So this has nothing to do in the least with a conspiracy. Also "paranoia" describes the irrational fear of being followed without actually being followed. We're not afraid, we're pissed. And the issues we're pissed about are pretty real.
But I guess you're just trying to use terms that remind everybody of someone "wacky" without being outright insulting.

[joleme]

also remember that jape is posting in a thread for the secure rom issue and raising points against the people posting in here, for no real reason other than to get under their skin. *other than the end of his post*

"And, how exactly do those install credits hinder piracy in any way? Pirates don't use the online activation anyway."

I think thats kind of the main issue I have. It's not harming them at all. Myself... played on my old system *using user accounts as it recommends* had to install twice.... before the tool..... Got a new computer... used 2 on that, because of the user account issue.... down to 1... getting a new hard drive today, and will reformat again since my old HD is slow and dying... leaves me with 0... but i can get back my 1 with the tool, oh joy.

[2K Elizabeth]

also remember that jape is posting in a thread for the secure rom issue and raising points against the people posting in here, for no real reason other than to get under their skin. *other than the end of his post*

"And, how exactly do those install credits hinder piracy in any way? Pirates don't use the online activation anyway."

I think thats kind of the main issue I have. It's not harming them at all. Myself... played on my old system *using user accounts as it recommends* had to install twice.... before the tool..... Got a new computer... used 2 on that, because of the user account issue.... down to 1... getting a new hard drive today, and will reformat again since my old HD is slow and dying... leaves me with 0... but i can get back my 1 with the tool, oh joy.

please remember that opposing opinions do not equal trolling, but good discussion. :D

[BioShockWins]

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

please remember that opposing opinions do not equal trolling, but good discussion. :D

If that were true, then you should allow the select few who were escorted off the site to return, since they only voiced their opinions, which got them booted. :p

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.

If that be the case, Since this "protection" has already been rendered useless by the dozens of "download-able" versions on the net, there isn't a need for it anymore, and it should be removed. This conclusion is only drawn upon by your own words. :D

[Destop]

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.

Do not underestimate the Crewz. They undoubtedly found a way around that, in fact already 9 days after release if I recall correctly.

[Jakester]

I think thats kind of the main issue I have. It's not harming them at all. Myself... played on my old system *using user accounts as it recommends* had to install twice.... before the tool..... Got a new computer... used 2 on that, because of the user account issue.... down to 1... getting a new hard drive today, and will reformat again since my old HD is slow and dying... leaves me with 0... but i can get back my 1 with the tool, oh joy.

Well, no. The theory is that you get 5 activations on 5 machines. Thus, in theory:
Use used 2 activations on machine ONE when you installed it the first time. You still have 3 activations remaining on Machine One.
You then used 2 activations on machine TWO (the new one). You still have 3 activations left on Machine TWO.

Now here's where it gets interesting. Replacing a "major piece of hardware" (like a NIC is major?!) makes SecuROM think you've got a new machine, so when you replace your hard drive (which undoubtedly is major), Machine TWO suddenly will become Machine THREE, and you'll use 2 activations and have three left.

Machine TWO, while still the same physical machine as Machine Three has ceased to be. It is an EX-MACHINE!

So, on the initial 2x2 (which, according to Japester, wouldn't have been a problem for anyone if those pesky Scoo...er...game reviewers hadn't tried to do something no one ever does -- install a game on more than one machine on anything other than an admin account), you'd have hit the limit on the first machine, but not exceeded it unless you reformatted. On your new machine, though, once you replaced the hard drive, you'd have been guilty of installing Bioshock on three machines even though there are only two machines, and you'd have had to play a round of SecuRom v. 2k Games ping-pong in which you're the ball.

And really, how do online activation and install limits (this is a how question, Forum Moderator 2k Elizabeth, not a why question) protect IP for PC users when the 360 game has no such restrictions and may be freely played by any number of Live accounts in a household, and lent to an infinite number of friends/family/strangers without restriction, especially since DRM-free versions are available for...uh...free? The only reason I can come up with is that they don't, so 2k must have other motives for a) using SecuROM and b) keeping it in place.

[Pikey Joe]

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.

Illegally? I had the impression that 2K were not overly concerned with legality.

Or is it just that the law doesn't apply to them?

[BioShockWins]

Illegally? I had the impression that 2K were not overly concerned with legality.

Or is it just that the law doesn't apply to them?

Why hasn't action been taken against them yet?
Why aren't they being fined, etc?

[Pikey Joe]

Why hasn't action been taken against them yet?
Why aren't they being fined, etc?

Patience, dear boy, patience.

[BioShockWins]

Oh... Kay...

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Why hasn't action been taken against them yet?
Why aren't they being fined, etc?


Because it can take anywhere from 6 months to 3 years before any action is taken, or even started for that matter, by the appropriate authority, from the first recognized report received.

That means 3 years from now 2K can get slammed with such a massive hit from, say for example, the FTC, for Bioshock illegally installing 3rd party hidden software, that it could bankrupt them in a heartbeat.

These things take time, especially when people are making sure to document and prepare everything right.

P.S. I'm wondering why you responded to Pikey joe, but my reply to you was "overlooked"? about the "activation". :p

[wildquinine]

I'll thank you for using "install credits" instead of "install limits" since the former is a lot more accurate. "Limit" makes it sound like once you use them up, the software is dead.

A credit is something that you're given. As far as I'm concerned, I paid for the right to install this game as often as I like. Any reduction in 'as often as I like' is a limit, not a credit.


the entire firestorm about the install limits isn't based on any of you actually running into those limits, but rather is based on philosophical indignation.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

Yes, I fundamentally object to the philosophy that gives a third party control over something I paid for. Philosophically, that removes my right of ownership from the product I paid for.

(NB. There are several people who have hit limits, and have posted about this in the past, though mostly they do not comprise the core of the vocal protestors.)

And you feel this number is worth obsessively complaining about.

The number is important primarily because there is a number at all.

It's an important issue even when it affects nobody directly, because it affects all of us indirectly. This is where history is being written over our rights to own (entertainment) software.

This is what is being erroded.

I'm not naive, I know that a lot of companies would like to move to a license, not ownership, model. I know that a lot of companies think they're already there because of their EULAs. But the truth is that they are not there yet, and these things will be decided in the next five or ten years.

It will be that much harder to argue our rights of ownership if precedent has been set that we don't have any.

And even if we do move to a license only model in the future, we will have that much better a position, as consumers, to negotiate on terms if we still have rights to cling to.

If we let things run their current course, the best we'll have is the vestigial notion that we lost a wad of money at some point.

[matches81]

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.
That one actually made me laugh... online activations are not used to check the DVD. That would be a disc check (which is done, too). An online activation usually validates a license key and therefore the installed product and usually activates it (makes it usable), hence the "activation" part in online activation.

Besides that, my point was not the purpose of an online activation scheme in general, but why 2K clings to it so desperately when their implementation of it is proven to be useless, has no legal basis and only applies to legal customers anyway?
I don't think 2K actually is trying to piss of their customers, but I just can't see any other reason for this. Except, of course, there is some obscure agreement with SecuROM for some odd reason. But that would be even more stupid than pissing off your customers deliberately, I guess.
So, I know, you, 2K Elizabeth and BioshockWins, are not the guys to make any official statements by yourselves, but why don't you just ask the guys from 2K about some clarification in this whole mess?
If the guys at 2K need 2 months to decide on the wording of an offical statement I wonder how they get any game out of the door.

[Destop]

A credit is something that you're given. As far as I'm concerned, I paid for the right to install this game as often as I like. Any reduction in 'as often as I like' is a limit, not a credit.[QUOTE]

Forgive me my lacking grasp of semantics, but "limits" and "credits" appear to be the same thing to me. They both allude to an upper bound (5 by 5 in this case) and a lower bound (0), which cannot be breached. Credits are given to you, but so are your limits. Credits can be raised and lowered, and limits can be shifted.

[QUOTE=wildquinine]Yes, I fundamentally object to the philosophy that gives a third party control over something I paid for. Philosophically, that removes my right of ownership from the product I paid for.

Well, third party control (whether intentional or not) has always been present, as the companies automatically impose their restrictions in the finished product supplied to you. If you pay for a camera, for example, you don't have control over its features, the company does, and you are probably not allowed to diassemble the camera unless you don't care about the warranty. Now, this wouldn't be bad if those rules were determined to be acceptable through dialogue between consumers and companies. That's why we have consumer law and companies law, basically.

But, since companies are run by humans and humans (ever heard of the saying, "give a finger, and they'll take your arm?) are typically gree.. I mean, since companies are run by honourable businessmen who seek to maximise profit, you get new rules models which basically let you pay for items which are worthless, unless you adhere to whatever twisted rules have been set forth by the company that created the items.

Rules like Bioshock PC has, where you may no longer be able to install the game unless someone else says so after some back and forth. Or rules like Hellgate: London PC has, where publisher EA thinks it can get away with unlimited access to your computer system and offer free, automated marketing research to any of its "partners", whoever they are.

And all this for the low, low price of 50 Euros (or whatever price you're currently looking at). Sorry, but I will not buy products with ludicrous restrictions or free company marketing research attached to them. Not at that price point. If enough people think like me, maybe companies might be inclined to enter a dialogue with "us" to the point where acceptable, binding compromises (laws) can be achieved for both parties.

And then, lobbies get politicians on board and the consumer gets the short end of the stick anyway ; ).

[trexmaster]

Why hasn't action been taken against them yet?
Why aren't they being fined, etc?

In fact, action has been taken. Complaints have been filled both in the USA and in the EU against 2K and Sony for (if I remember correctly the exact subjects) :
- defective software (SecuROM isn't uninstalled when you uninstall the game)
- piracy by installing 3rd party software without leaving any choice to the computer's owner
- no information about the copy protection system prior to purchase
- collect of data without the user's express agreement

All those points are illegal and have been judged as such in the past, just wait until those actions resolve.

Oh yeah, and what Silus said.

[Silus]

please remember that opposing opinions do not equal trolling, but good discussion. :D

That's nice...
So japester keeps on mentioning the old "nothing is wrong" speech" and "it's not trolling, but good discussion".
We keep mentioning our "older issues" in the thread for that purpose and it's considered "spam" and warning worthy...

Very nice indeed!

[japester]

That's nice...
So japester keeps on mentioning the old "nothing is wrong" speech"

I guess you're not reading my posts, eh?

That's okay. I won't take it personally. ;)

[darious]

(NB. There are several people who have hit limits, and have posted about this in the past, though mostly they do not comprise the core of the vocal protestors.)



Most of them I believe have stopped coming to the 2K forums, never to purchase another 2K game again.


I'm not naive, I know that a lot of companies would like to move to a license, not ownership, model. I know that a lot of companies think they're already there because of their EULAs. But the truth is that they are not there yet, and these things will be decided in the next five or ten years.

It will be that much harder to argue our rights of ownership if precedent has been set that we don't have any.

And even if we do move to a license only model in the future, we will have that much better a position, as consumers, to negotiate on terms if we still have rights to cling to.

If we let things run their current course, the best we'll have is the vestigial notion that we lost a wad of money at some point.

It's actually being decided right now. Apple's own EULA hasn't prevented at least two class action lawsuits against them regarding their anti-competitive nature of there AT&T lock in, and their punishing of customers who have taken steps to NOT be locked in.

Watch those court cases closely because if Apple and it's pile of the finest lawyers that money can buy lose 'em, then we can look forward to at least some protection from consumer abusing software lockins.


-------------
Proud member of the Banned of Brothers.

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[AbsoluteBS]

The reason for activations, is so if someone illegally downloads it, the software won't be able to work, without the DVD etc.

Ok, first off: this mod has admitted that this is her/his first mod. gig, and that this the PC world is not his/her world. We hammered this out, and s/he took a cool line on it, and perhaps (I'm hoping) sees the difference between the 'Death Star' option, and the reality of moderating (which is largely pruning crap from posts because most of us internet users get a 'little' hyperbolic when we post about things we care about - its the nature of the anonymous medium, nothing more). Kudos to being able to take x odd threads that didn't mean anything barring mod discussion and prune them: only after both parties had got their points across. This is fundamental: I hold this person up as a sympathetic mod, who perhaps hasn't had the best advice on moderating, but that has nothing to do with the spirit in which this person is treating this forum, and I feel that s/he actually will be a great mod very soon.

So: I'm of a mind to not flame this mod, and ask that all personal attacks / flames / trolling stop on this, esp. making troll accounts to harass him/her. Bad advice on moderating is not this person's fault, and I feel that s/he is doing his/her best at a very difficult gig without explicit guidelines. So please, stop using this mod as a scapegoat. S/he is learning on the job, and that's all fine & dandy - moreover, this person is open to advice and so forth. S/he isn't the Nazi A.Ryan character so painted by everyone.

[largely addressed to hyperthreading there - mod, please feel free to prune the nonsense above with any small tag you want! :) ].

Onto the important part of the post (and, I promise, no mention of er.. well, those things that rhyme with 'currants' ;) ):

The DRM that we're seeing actually mirrors the original battle between the coders and crackers way back in the land of Amiga / C64 / BBC 32k land. The position is exactly the same, barring that the protagonists no longer know each other.

Back then, it was common for a coder to program the ID sector with their copy protection, and so forth: this lead to a whole slew of messages from the coder to the crackers as only someone trying to crack the game could read this message. i.e. you had to do some decompiling and fancy footwork to actually see these parts of the code anyhow. Messages ranged from 'Hi, I spent ten months on this game, I make little money from the business, please don't crack this if you want me to continue' to the famous M.U.L.E. one - that basically stated: "I love making games, my publisher sees only sales figures, I don't care if you crack this IF you notify my publisher that strategy games are viable, and you enjoy it - by not registering your support, you're making games worse".

I can dig out the exact quotation if wanted.

This is the simple nature of the beast: since computer games began, people can and will copy them, and crack the protection. In BS' case, it was nine days. In Exile's case it was seven years: basically because the maker encoded a duel process encryption that ruined the game procedurally. Most 'cracks' got the first one, but missed the second. This is the reason why a game 15+ yrs old only has a single properly cracked source on the entire of the web. Not bad for a game taking less than 700k. Gandolf's OCS Amiga crack of Exile goes down in history as the best protection coded into a game. - Hey, Paradox says hi.

Looking back on the history of games the following is true:

A) There's no such thing as an uncrackable game. Simply put - in 20+ years of games, no game has remained uncracked. If you want to pirate a game, you can, and you will.

B) It doesn't matter if this is a third party program or a simplistic (now) CD check or even some of the most original and hard-core defenses first put in when a person coding a game was literally defending their cash flow / intellectual rights. Any game can be cracked. If you're not using military standard 256 encryption with an unique decoder, you're stuffed (sorry, nerd reference there),

C) Although the publishers might try to ignore it, cracked games on console (e.g. non user enabling devices) do exist, for any game you release. I know if I drop down to Moscow market right now, I can get a cracked version of BS for Xbox that works, straight away - it even fools the auto-download tool. Halo III is worse, Russia had the game before it was released in Europe.

D) This isn't just a PC issue - although 2K games seem to believe that it is. Sorry, but a largest market in cracked games is now console based. Penalising the PC market with over-priced DRM that gets cracked in under nine days, isn't a solution.

E) The real solution to the 'problem' has been hinted at in the thread - pay for download music, chosen by the downloader. Would I pay $30 for a Levine game, if given a true option. Of course, I spent $60 on BS. 2K games needs to realise the simple truth: if you ask the punter to pay for quality, they will. Your only option is to provide your agents (KL / irrational games) with the freedom to make great games, and shoot any suited marketing man who thinks they should have input when they shouldn't.

F) Don't sign exclusive rights distribution deals with MS. This is a bad idea. Not mentioning the test cycle and TCRs, the very fact that you're allowing MS to determine your publishing rights, is a bad business model. We'd allow it in a small first time producer, but 2K games has Civ IV as well - if you're allowing MS to determine your third party protection and release models, you're really not playing as a business, but as a small guy in the bedroom, trying to make a pound before his code gets ripped.



If we want a discussion about DRM, we have to address the entire industry atm, and the silliness that is going on. Third party DRM is about as much use as those weird printed manual pages that you had to strain your eyes to work out. They're not there to address the crackers, they're there to justify insurance losses to shareholders.

Discuss.

[Destop]

It's actually being decided right now. Apple's own EULA hasn't prevented at least two class action lawsuits against them regarding their anti-competitive nature of there AT&T lock in, and their punishing of customers who have taken steps to NOT be locked in.

Yeah, but isn't it so that Apple told everyone in advance that it was going to be an AT&T lock-in, and that it's on the tin? If that's the case, I don't think those lawsuits can be won. *sigh* I hope they'll change it to a different network for the European release, otherwise I'll have to look out for another gadget.

I must say that I'm principally against cell phone lock-ins. Why is it suddenly a crime that someone, when buying a cell phone, *gasp* chooses their own network for it? Then again, this *is* Macintosh, who basically invented hardware-locked, proprietary software =). And to think Boot Camp almost convinced me otherwise...

/side-tracking

[BioShockWins]

The thing about the DVD or whatever was a guess.
I meant to put that in my original post. But didn't. :p

[BTW: I'm a dude.]

Back on topic.

What other games has SecuROM been on?
And how was it handled? I'm not a PC gamer, so I don't know. But it is interesting.

[Destop]

Ok, first off: this mod [SNIP]

Right, so exactly where has anyone been harassing "rookie mod" BioshockWins with respect to that quote? Or are you talking about someone else?

The DRM that we're seeing actually mirrors the original battle between the coders and crackers way back in the land of Amiga / C64 / BBC 32k land. The position is exactly the same, barring that the protagonists no longer know each other.

I don't quite agree here. Talking pure basics, then yes, it's all about the battle between software companies and hackers. But the DRM iterations we're seeing today dig deeper than that. Bioshock PC's DRM functionality allows companies to keep their customers on a leash and "call back" to the activation servers whenever they dare do something devious such as reinstalling the game.

Or how about Hellgate: London's DRM feature set, where EA (and whatever companies they want to associate themselves with) reserves the right to take a look at your system as much as it wants, whenever it wants and then offer that info to whoever it wants.

That's not really comparable to the "old days", where the companies kept you from copying the software, but you still could sell it or lend it to a friend. Now games want to be tied to your system, with the same exact hardware config it registers the first time. They want to be monitored by the companies that created them, and cry boo-hiss if you do crazy stuff like changing hardware. It's not just about the copy protection anymore - it's slowly adding resell-protection, too.

[SNIP]Hey, Paradox says hi.

I beg to differ. Everyone knows the Timex system on the c64 was the hardest to crack ;>.

Looking back on the history of games the following is true:

A+B) There's no such thing as an uncrackable game. Simply put - in 20+ years of games, no game has remained uncracked. If you want to pirate a game, you can, and you will.

In principle, this will change. It was mathematically shown that quantum cryptography is unbreakable. As such, once technology catches up, data streams can no longer be cracked, and streaming games to the consumer will be the way to go. But, that's all still future talk.

C+D+E) Although the publishers might try to ignore it, cracked games on console (e.g. non user enabling devices) do exist, for any game you release. I know if I drop down to Moscow market right now, I can get a cracked version of BS for Xbox that works, straight away - it even fools the auto-download tool. Halo III is worse, Russia had the game before it was released in Europe.

Well, I'd really want some cold, hard numbers and evidence with that. Can you prove that console hacking is of the same order as PC hacking? Are there studies being conducted about it? Same for that "real solution" - rigorous studies need to prove your point, a few isolated experiments won't cut it. Until such studies arise, we need to be able to enter an open, honest dialogue with the companies and debate to find out which type of DRM functionality respects both consumer and companies rights.

Sure, Destop, you can stop dreaming now.

[Ryom]

In principle, this will change. It was mathematically shown that quantum cryptography is unbreakable. As such, once technology catches up, data streams can no longer be cracked, and streaming games to the consumer will be the way to go. But, that's all still future talk.

Quantum Crypto in theory prevents sniffing the wire, but there is a theory out on how to get around that already. Secondly, none of the currently uses crypto in the DRM schemes today is remotely crackable either. People debug the software or dump the ram and find the keys, they don't break the crypto at all. In order for the game to run, the key has to be accessible to the PC, and thus, available to the person attempting to bypass the DRM.

[Ryom]

no edit of course:

So in conclusion, no... quantum crypto changes nothing with regards to DRM schemes.

[Destop]

Quantum Crypto in theory prevents sniffing the wire, but there is a theory out on how to get around that already. Secondly, none of the currently uses crypto in the DRM schemes today is remotely crackable either. People debug the software or dump the ram and find the keys, they don't break the crypto at all. In order for the game to run, the key has to be accessible to the PC, and thus, available to the person attempting to bypass the DRM.

The attacks on QC I know of involve altering the equipment or noticeably interfering with the communication. Those are technical issues which, over time, will be ironed out. That's why I said that it's something for the future, pretty much like cold fusion - a good answer to energy problems - is also something for the future. Still, the principle behind it is sound, so unless someone finds a better solution at an earlier time, QC may lead to a wholly unbreakable communications technology.

[Ryom]

Communications, maybe. DRM, no... QC is vulnerable in the same way standard crypto is.

[Pikey Joe]

What other games has SecuROM been on?
And how was it handled? I'm not a PC gamer, so I don't know. But it is interesting.

Five minutes on Google found the list shown below. It's clearly out of date, as there is no mention of F.E.A.R., Stalker, Bioshock, Call of Juarez, NWN2, etc. But it does give an idea of the extent of SecuROM's use.

It has clearly been sitting on most gamers' systems for quite some time (in one version or another), and in many cases without the knowledge of the end user. In some cases it is mentioned in the EULA (Call of Juarez, for example), in others it isn't (Bioshock) - but as nobody reads EULAs anyway this is probably irrelevant. Bioshock took the DRM to a new level - a level clearly unacceptable to many people - and the backlash that followed raised awareness of SecuROM and its methods (including the initial 'rootkit' claim), and led to the discovery by many people of SecuROM sitting uninvited on their systems and resisting all attempts to remove it.

Anyhow, here's the list:

Atlantis 2
Superbike World Championship (German Version)
World War 3 - Black Gold
Battle Isle 2
Tribes 2
Blade The Edge of Darkness
Supreme Snowboard
Homeworld - Cataclysm
Toca 2
Gabriel Knight 3
Black Moon Chronicles
Dinosaur
Rally Championship 2000
Rune Gold
Shadowman
Insane
Die Gilde
Die Hard Nakatomi Plaza
World Championship Snooker
Revolt
Europa Universalis 2
Tarzan
Alien vs. Predator 2
Nascar Racing 2002
Alone In The Dark-The New Nightmare
Giants - Citizen Kabuto
Street Wars
Techno Mage
Michael Schumacher's - Racing World
South Park Chef`s Luv
UEFA Champions League 2001/2002
Nascar Racing 4
Submarine Titans
The Final Of Curse
Addy Kids
Tony Hawks Pro Skater 3
Salt Lake 2002
Monsters INC
Sub Command
Severance - Blade of Darkness
Half-Life - Blueshift
V-Rally 2
Sheep Dog ´N´ Wolf
Disney's Monster AG
Star Trek - DS 9 The Fallen
Trick Style
Gunman
Shadow Of Destiny
Colin McRae Rally 2
Empire Earth
Warcraft 3 - Reign Of Chaos (German Version)
Warcraft 3 - Reign Of Chaos (English Version)
Warcraft 3 - 1.01 Patch Update
Warcraft 3 - 1.02 Patch Update
Warcraft 3 - 1.03 Patch Update
Warcraft 3 - 1.04a Patch Update
Soccer Manager
Industry Giant 2
Neverwinter Nights
Frontline Attack
Alien Vs Predator 2 - Primal Hunt
Arx Fatalis (German Version)
The Thing
Neverwinter Nights v1.21 Patch Update
K. Hawk - Survival Instinct (German Version)
Archangel
Virtual Resort - Spring Break
Beach Life
Beam Breakers
Cossacks - Back To War
No-one Lives Forever 2
Unreal Tournament 2003
Hitman 2
Hitman 2 (German)
Roller Coaster Tycoon 2
Arx Fatalis (English Version)
Gothic 2
Anno (German Version)
Ring II
Civilization 3 - Play The World
K. Hawk - Survival Instinct (US Version)
Soldiers Of Anarchy
Lord Of The Rings: Fellowship Of The Ring
Unreal Tournament 2003 2136 Patch Update
Lord Of The Rings: Fellowship Of The Ring - v1.1 Patch Update
Unreal Tournament 2003 (Taiwan & China Version)
Unreal Tournament 2003 2186 Patch Update
American Conquest (French Version)
Unreal Tournament 2003 Patch Update
Frontline Attack -* War over Europe
Far West
Unreal 2 - The Awakening
Unreal Tournament 2003 (Taiwan & China Version) 2166 Patch Update
Unreal Tournament 2003 2166 Patch Update
No-one Lives Forever 2 v1.2 Patch Update
Anno (German Version) v1.02
Masters Of Orion
Nascar 2003 Season
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Praetorians
Enter The Matrix
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Incoming
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Heart of Darkness
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MAX II
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Descent Freespace
War of the Worlds
Wargasm
Populous 3: The Beginning
FIFA 99
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FA Premier League FM 99
Arcanum Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Sim City 3000
South Park
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Silver
Alpha Centauri
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Brian Lara Cricket
Machines
S.A.G.A: Rage of the Vikings
Monopoly Tycoon
Le Mans 24 hour
Disciples II Dark Prophecy Collector's Edition
Gunman Chronicles

[impar]

Greetings!Bioshock took the DRM to a new level - a level clearly unacceptable to many people - and the backlash that followed raised awareness of SecuROM and its methods...QFT! :)

[Pj_dmsfrnd]

Bioshock took the DRM to a new level - a level clearly unacceptable to many people - and the backlash that followed raised awareness of SecuROM and its methods (including the initial 'rootkit' claim), and led to the discovery by many people of SecuROM sitting uninvited on their systems and resisting all attempts to remove it.


Bioshock was the catalyst to the discovery of this new level of DRM, but SONY are the one's responsible for it's creation.

The previous versions were acceptable, simply because they sat on the system, virtually invisible, without the need for worry since the software only validated the CD for the particular title. (which also became useless ("crackers" drop "no-cd" patches within hours of the titles hitting the shelves), and illegal simply because a user is legally entitled to create a working backup copy of software they own.)

Now we are dealing with a new version, and a completely different animal that is specifically written with the embedded ability to open up secure hidden connections over the internet, giving it the ability to transmit and receive data all without user knowledge or consent. Furthermore, being there is no way to decipher what gets transmitted/received, no one has a way to know what information lies within a successful activation/transmission. (which you need to do with bioshock for each user account on a single PC, which doesn't make sense other than the fact that each user account has it's own accessible data and folders, not available to all the other users under different accounts. Lets not forget about the ability of driver level control, and it's ability to prevent programs on it's own 'blacklist" from running. Who does Sony think they are telling me I'm not allowed to run Process explorer, or certain networking software, or CD burning software? Who gave them the ownership of my pC? I sure didn't, did you? Their intrusive ability to restrict the use of your PC is illegal, your system, your choice of what you wish to run on it, not theirs.)

This "technology" will be installed with all future games that utilize SecuRom, and with most titles NOT requiring on-line activation, what is the use of having the ability to create hidden, encrypted data connections within the "protection' software? Futher still, what is the use of having such a high level of encryption on a hidden data connection if it is only used to verify a CD KEY? What really is the need for storing encrypted, unreadable files on the PC? Other than Data mining, configuration/user statistics, etc. I can think of no other rational/reasonable use for it to be used. which BTW, again, illegal since SecuRom installs itself on a users system without notice or permission, and does NOT have an Un-installer provided for it BY the Manufacturer.

I for one will never agree to have something like this on my systems, and I'm not alone. Then again, we don't have to agree to put it on our systems because it is ILLEGAL to begin with. Now with the word getting out, maybe something will finally be done about it.

Knowledge is power, that is why companies such as SONY, do what they can to keep certain things out of sight from the avaerage "joe".

[matches81]

The DRM that we're seeing actually mirrors the original battle between the coders and crackers way back in the land of Amiga / C64 / BBC 32k land. The position is exactly the same, barring that the protagonists no longer know each other.

The main difference is that many current DRM schemes don't only involve coders vs crackers, but consumers that get in between, in the worst case making the game unplayable for some. That's a big difference for me as a consumer.


Looking back on the history of games the following is true:

A) There's no such thing as an uncrackable game. Simply put - in 20+ years of games, no game has remained uncracked. If you want to pirate a game, you can, and you will.

B) It doesn't matter if this is a third party program or a simplistic (now) CD check or even some of the most original and hard-core defenses first put in when a person coding a game was literally defending their cash flow / intellectual rights. Any game can be cracked. If you're not using military standard 256 encryption with an unique decoder, you're stuffed (sorry, nerd reference there),

C) Although the publishers might try to ignore it, cracked games on console (e.g. non user enabling devices) do exist, for any game you release. I know if I drop down to Moscow market right now, I can get a cracked version of BS for Xbox that works, straight away - it even fools the auto-download tool. Halo III is worse, Russia had the game before it was released in Europe.

D) This isn't just a PC issue - although 2K games seem to believe that it is. Sorry, but a largest market in cracked games is now console based. Penalising the PC market with over-priced DRM that gets cracked in under nine days, isn't a solution.

E) The real solution to the 'problem' has been hinted at in the thread - pay for download music, chosen by the downloader. Would I pay $30 for a Levine game, if given a true option. Of course, I spent $60 on BS. 2K games needs to realise the simple truth: if you ask the punter to pay for quality, they will. Your only option is to provide your agents (KL / irrational games) with the freedom to make great games, and shoot any suited marketing man who thinks they should have input when they shouldn't.


@A+B: Agreed
@C+D+E: I think piracy on the console might be less of a problem, because not everybody with a console automatically has a PC with internet connection to get hold of as many illegal copies as he wants to. It is probably right, that every console game is cracked, but the distribution of those cracked version requires an additional piece of hardware or a black-market around the corner.
Nonetheless, you're right: Piracy on consoles exists, despite what publishers believe and obviously successfully make others believe.


If we want a discussion about DRM, we have to address the entire industry atm, and the silliness that is going on. Third party DRM is about as much use as those weird printed manual pages that you had to strain your eyes to work out. They're not there to address the crackers, they're there to justify insurance losses to shareholders.

Discuss.
I find it odd that the games industry obviously doesn't consider quality as too much of a purchase reason. Sure, there are many quality games out there, but going to such lengths as 2K did with Bioshock for example clearly shows that they think quality doesn't sell. Yet they somehow think that delaying the release of a cracked version for a few days will make their sales sky-rocket.
Let's stick with Bioshock: Even with the ineffective "copy protection" in place, 2K shipped 1.5 million copies of the game. Every one who bought that game could just have waited a few days and downloaded it, and most of them knew of that possibility. Yet, somehow, many people decided to buy that game. Why? Because they were too impatient to wait for a few more days? Might be true for a few, but I guess that's not many. You must be pretty weird to have that as a reason to buy a game.... spend 50$ or wait between 2 days and 2 weeks? IMHO Bioshock sold so well because it's a pretty damn good game and people appreciate that.
Seeing how publishers like 2K try to minimize the use a consumer has from the bought product with every iteration, DRM and wacky EULAs become an increasingly big reason not to buy that product, despite its otherwise great quality. I, as a consumer, can't expect the publishers to respect my rights, obviously. So, unless I'm well-informed about the used copy protection and its flaws and the EULA for the game, I can't buy a game without a weird feeling of suspicion.
How that feeling of suspicion is good for the business is just beyond me. But perhaps it has something to do with justifying "insurance losses to shareholders", I don't know about that. Perhaps someone would care to explain?

[Destop]

Communications, maybe. DRM, no... QC is vulnerable in the same way standard crypto is.

Well, I won't stop you from writing articles about just how easy QC (it is "standard crypto", after all) is to crack. I certainly don't know everything. But, consider the following video games model, which could become a reality "in the future":

Like digital TV, you access a "game publisher channel", for example "2K Games Digital", connect an input device of some kind, select Bioshock 4 and play.

However, there is no game data on the HDD of your set top box. What happens is this:

01 - Through a QC protected data stream, 2K Games Digital sends a picture+audio of Bioshock 4. The stream is updated X times per second.

02 - You input something, this input is sent (QC protected as well) to the 2K Games Digital server base where your instance of the game is running. The input is registered, the code changes the game situation accordingly.

03 - go to 01

The QC protection would be such that, as soon as the datastream is being "sniffed" or an abnormal amount of photons pass through the optical fibres, the data stream stops.

In this system, the only streams are images, sounds and input of your instance of the game, as you're playing it. The actual game code which changes the audio-visual of your game is running internally, in some game server, somewhere. Even if a cracker beats mathematics and is able to intercept the streams, all he'd get is a movie* of you playing the game. He'd have to write and develop the entire game code, based on what can be seen and heard in your streams (and those of many others) in order to create a copy of it.

Or, the attackers break into the physical location of the game servers, copy them and offer their own "free games channel". But then, we're talking about criminal activity on a whole new level.

Just a thought.

*: Of course, if you were watching a movie or listening to music, then of course, the cracker has obtained something substantial, but not so when it comes to games.

[Silus]

I guess you're not reading my posts, eh?

That's okay. I won't take it personally. ;)

No, I do.
Did your "nothing is wrong" speech change ? Maybe a little bit, since it seems that now, you have concerns too. Which is a different stance, from about a month ago, where everything was peachy. I guess you're finally seeing the bigger picture, of Bioshock's DRM scheme...

About the "paranoia", do you really feel comfortable in not being able to know how many install credits you have left ? No wonder you're part of 2K's favorite members.
So they install software on your computer, without you knowing about it (no info anywhere on the box) and if that's not enough, install limits are enforced and they LIE about them, saying that when you uninstall the game, you'll get an install credit back and you still trust these people ? How does that work ? What's your threshold for lies ? How many do you need to suck up, before you don't trust a person/company ? I would like to live in your fantasy world, where no matter how wrong people/companies act towards you, you still think they're ok...
In my case, what 2K did (and continues to do), passed my threshold long ago!

Now you have concerns. How will you be able to play the game, in some point in the future ? Fairest of questions, but not too long ago, everything was fine for you. You were just worried about the "now". If it doesn't affect you "now", then we had to listen to your "nothing is wrong" speech again. But it seems that "now", you're finally seeing part of the bigger picture and that our complaints, were never about the now, but mostly about the future.
I'm guessing that in time, you'll be here, as we were, complaining about the same things. But remember, as soon as your stance changes completely, you'll be hunted down and "warned" and sometimes "banned", for no particular reason, except 2K's will to sweep the problems they have created, under the rug...

[japester]

No, I do.
Did your "nothing is wrong" speech change ? Maybe a little bit, since it seems that now, you have concerns too.

:) LOL. This statement is almost as priceless as "when we keep repeating ourselves over and over again for months....they call it spam!" LOL


Which is a different stance, from about a month ago, where everything was peachy. I guess you're finally seeing the bigger picture, of Bioshock's DRM scheme...

Actually, no.

I honestly don't expect you to go back and re-read all my posts. Seriously. But if you did, you'd see I mentioned my concern about not having an .exe very early on. Immateriaux and I even discussed it at length. But, unlike many of you, once I voiced my concern, I didn't feel the need to repeat it ad nauseum. ;) Plus, I do have faith that a company which makes their living out of selling games would have a long-term plan to address the "no .exe" issue since that could ultimately kill the software and alienate any future customers.


About the "paranoia", do you really feel comfortable in not being able to know how many install credits you have left ? No wonder you're part of 2K's favorite members.

There is a delicious irony in the fact that you chide me for missing the "big picture", yet you fixate on an issue like this. Yes. I think you guys are being utterly ridiculous obsessing about credits when credits are free for the asking. You can take issue with the fact that you have to ask at all, but needing to know how many you have of an unlimited item is a silly thing to complain about. It demonstrates to me that you folks have an axe to grind and will simply use anything you can to fit into your "2k is evil and/or incompetent" mindset.

The big picture, as I tried to point out, is not how many credits you have left, but how long we will need those servers at all to install. Let's say you happily get 50 credits and can look at them every day online. What will that matter if 2K's servers go down for good? Where will you spend your credits? THAT is the issue worth discussing, IMHO.


So they install software on your computer, without you knowing about it (no info anywhere on the box)

See, this I also find funny. The regular complainers here on the forum love to point out this software intrusion. And the complaints are partly what inspired my "paranoia" comments. They're not angry because it has affected their system in any way, they're made because it's there! And it might tell somebody about them! Or it might enable hackers to take over their system! Nobody has really provided any evidence of any of this, but not knowing is enough to be up in arms! RAAAARGH!

LOL

Many of the regulars in this thread act like SecuROM is a huge wart on their system. Like their computer is their shiny new car, which they know every square inch of, and SecuROM is a huge scratch running down the driver side door. The reality for the vast majority is that the intimate workings of your computer are about as known to you as the underground plumbing in your house. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of unnecessary junk software being dumped on systems regularly, but someone acting like they know every registry entry and every line of code on their computer is laughable. I'm sure a few folks are that diligent and knowledgable, but most aren't. So if someone didn't point out exactly where to look, they wouldn't have had any issues with SecuROM. It would do its job, invisible to 95% or more or folks, and not harm anything.


and if that's not enough, install limits are enforced and they LIE about them, saying that when you uninstall the game, you'll get an install credit back and you still trust these people ? How does that work ? What's your threshold for lies ? How many do you need to suck up, before you don't trust a person/company ? I would like to live in your fantasy world, where no matter how wrong people/companies act towards you, you still think they're ok...
In my case, what 2K did (and continues to do), passed my threshold long ago!


Again, ridiculous. Not a single person making this "they lie! they lie!!!" complaint has thought this through. No-one is denying that 2K Elizabeth gave out some bad info early on. The difference between folks like me and folks like you isn't that I'm a fanboy who will blindly excuse anything---it's that I'm rational and live in the real world. PEOPLE. MAKE. MISTAKES. Liz was obviously working on bad info (like the demo, for example--everyone seems to ignore that some versions didn't have copy protection, so her statement wasn't entirely untrue) and when she got the right info, she came clean.

Here's the kicker, and the reason I laugh every time you guys trot this out. Rather than chalking this up to a couple of miscommunications, you guys think that 2K lied intentionally. Intentionally. And left it out there for the world to see, on a forum that they host. Yes. That sounds like an evil master plan to me. When they got caught in their nefarious subterfuge, they shut down the board to....prevent....anyone......no waitaminute. They didn't do that. Well, at least they erased all of Liz's posts that said......no....wait. They left them out there. At least they edited them, so they said.....no.....wait. You see where I'm going with this? :)

Then again, you guys will probably say that unstickying those early threads were part of some plot to erase the truth. But....uh....couldn't they have done that a lot more easily by doing what I suggested? And aren't you guys the ones that constantly pointed to how many hits that thread got? How can you say they were hiding anything if so many people saw that thread? No, none of these complaints hang together in the light of day. But if you're really, really angry....and you squint your eyes....and don't focus them.....then maybe......


Now you have concerns. How will you be able to play the game, in some point in the future ? Fairest of questions, but not too long ago, everything was fine for you. You were just worried about the "now". If it doesn't affect you "now", then we had to listen to your "nothing is wrong" speech again. But it seems that "now", you're finally seeing part of the bigger picture and that our complaints, were never about the now, but mostly about the future.
I'm guessing that in time, you'll be here, as we were, complaining about the same things. But remember, as soon as your stance changes completely, you'll be hunted down and "warned" and sometimes "banned", for no particular reason, except 2K's will to sweep the problems they have created, under the rug...

I've also stated several times that I will gladly eat crow if my faith in 2K isn't rewared by removal of the security measures. The reason you are thinking that I only said "everything is fine" is because I stated my concerns a couple of times and was done with it. The bulk of the rest of my posts were an effort to combat some of the sensationalistic ignorance being bandied around the forum. It is a lot tougher to encourage truth and rational thinking than it is to spread half-truths. The half-truths are sexier and easier for John Q to wrap his ming around. Much easier to demonize someone you disagree with than try to understand their motivations. So I injected the occassional counterpoint among the many, many "me, too!" posts.

I'm kind of disappointed that you guys have taken to critcizing my right to post. That speaks of a great weakening of your argument if you can't address the message and try to shut down the messenger. :( You guys have literally posted thousands of spammish complaints, rehashing the same things over and over (often missing the real issues--as I've pointed out above--in favor of more emotional, baseless complaints), yet you have a problem with my dozens of responses? (Not all of my posts have been about this--some have actually been about the game. LOL)

[Jakester]

If credits are free for the asking, what purpose do they serve? This sort of scheme could have been implemented on the 360 version...but it wasn't. Why?

[matches81]

There is a delicious irony in the fact
[...]
THAT is the issue worth discussing, IMHO.

so, to sum it up: You would love online activation being removed completely (which I would love, too), but being forced to invest additional time to get more "credits" to play a game you bought and doesn't mention any of this in its own license is okay?
I agree that removal of online activation would be a great thing, but a publisher not adhering to its own EULA is an issue worth discussing to me.
The only thing indicating that online activation might be removed in the future is Ken Levine stating that 2K promised that to him. As I see it, that only shows Ken's good will in that matter. But I doubt he has anything to decide in this matter and 2K refuses to make an official statement regarding any of the issues discussed here for the last 2 months.
So, that removal is just "wishful" thinking currently. Additionally: What would you do with your game when they removed online activation without giving you a way to get that missing .exe? (the biggest joke of it all, IMHO)


See, this I also find funny. The regular complainers here on the forum love to point out this software intrusion. And the complaints are partly what inspired my "paranoia" comments. They're not angry because it has affected their system in any way, they're made because it's there! And it might tell somebody about them! Or it might enable hackers to take over their system! Nobody has really provided any evidence of any of this, but not knowing is enough to be up in arms! RAAAARGH!
[...]
It would do its job, invisible to 95% or more or folks, and not harm anything.

I really like your twisted view on things. Great. So, if people didn't know about the 3rd party software installed on their computers it would be okay? Great... wait... there's a law against that. And 2K is breaking it. But if noone knew about it, noone would care... that's the only thing that is right about your view. However that wouldn't make doing such things right. A thief that is not caught is still stealing, even if the person he stole from never notices that the item is missing.
So, while SecuROM might not be the devil itself, it is installed without notice, can't be uninstalled properly and establishes hidden connections to send some data. Sorry to say that, but establishing hidden connections is at least suspicious to me. Not mentioning any of this anywhere, and staying silent on what data is being sent doesn't exactly clear that suspicion for me.
If you're fine with a game installing some piece of 3rd party software without notice that does something you don't know about, great. Some people are not and like to think that it is up to them to choose what's installed on their systems and what is not, and that's why there is a law against that.
You don't have to know "every line of code" to make an informed decision about what you want on your system and what you don't want. If you did have to know every line of code to do that, noone would be able to install software with a clear conscience. Currently, 2K has taken this decision from me and installed something that does behave rather suspicious. That is an issue for me, because I bought a game from a company and first thing that company does is install hidden software on my system. Furthermore they refuse to tell me what data that software is sending through that hidden connection. I'm not even told what the purpose of that hidden connection is.

I have to admit that a publisher breaking the law of several nations with the release of a mere game is a bit frightening to me, especially when I see that there are lots of people like you, who don't even care about that and don't get tired to reiterate that this is fine.


Again, ridiculous. Not a single person making this "they lie! they lie!!!" complaint has thought this through. No-one is denying that 2K Elizabeth gave out some bad info early on.
[...]
and don't focus them.....then maybe......

Although I myself never accused 2K of lying, I can see where that comes from. 2K has not been exactly straight-forward in their official statements... oh wait, there are close to no official statements regarding any of the heavier issues with the game, and no official statement regarding the issues at hand here. The only thing we had in the last two months is the forum moderator trying to answer some questions, where she made a mistake. I agree on the mistake part. But it's pretty understandable to interpret that mistake as a lie when there are no official statements about anything. Sry, but 2K's customer relations surely suck.


I've also stated several times that I will gladly eat crow if my faith in 2K isn't rewared by removal of the security measures.
[...]
You guys have literally posted thousands of spammish complaints, rehashing the same things over and over (often missing the real issues--as I've pointed out above--in favor of more emotional, baseless complaints), yet you have a problem with my dozens of responses? (Not all of my posts have been about this--some have actually been about the game. LOL)

I don't know, but the fact that you choose to ignore that 2K's release of Bioshock breaks several laws, infringes the rights of the customer and breaks their own EULA doesn't exactly make you the "defender of truth" in any way. You're just stating your opinion. Over and over again. Just like we do. So, in that point, you're not "better" in any way than "we" are. So leave that high pedestal and come back down on the floor, please.
Just because the only "real" issue you have with the game is the online activation itself doesn't make the issues other have with "ridiculous" or "baseless complaints".

[Silus]

Here's the kicker, and the reason I laugh every time you guys trot this out. Rather than chalking this up to a couple of miscommunications, you guys think that 2K lied intentionally. Intentionally. And left it out there for the world to see, on a forum that they host. Yes. That sounds like an evil master plan to me. When they got caught in their nefarious subterfuge, they shut down the board to....prevent....anyone......no waitaminute. They didn't do that. Well, at least they erased all of Liz's posts that said......no....wait. They left them out there. At least they edited them, so they said.....no.....wait. You see where I'm going with this? :)

They DID lie intentionally. They went on and on, since Bioshock was released, that you could get an install credit back, if you uninstalled the game, which was a LIE. Do you get that ? They only came clean, when they confirmed that the Revoke Tool existed, which was only created, becasue people like me, complained to high heavens, about their lies. YOU would not have what you have today, concerning Bioshock, if it wasn't for me and the many other posters, unhappy with these measures. Get that once and for all!!!

I'm kind of disappointed that you guys have taken to critcizing my right to post. That speaks of a great weakening of your argument if you can't address the message and try to shut down the messenger. :( You guys have literally posted thousands of spammish complaints, rehashing the same things over and over (often missing the real issues--as I've pointed out above--in favor of more emotional, baseless complaints), yet you have a problem with my dozens of responses? (Not all of my posts have been about this--some have actually been about the game. LOL)

I don't criticize your right to post. Far from that. But I did use a few of your posts, along with AJ Rimmer and others, to show how the rules were applied differently, according to a person's stance on these SecuROM and Activations issues.
I'm not even going into details, because now it's even against the rules to mention the banned members. But do some research and if you actually THINK about it, you'll see what I mean.

You've said a lot in your post, but I'm not going to answer much more than what I already have. You have the answers in many posts in this same thread. If I did answer to everything in your post, the forum moderators, will use it as an excuse to close this thread, as they did with many others.

[..]DarkLight[..]

After just silently following the different discussions and issues from one month before the official launch of Bioshock until this very day, I have finally found the time and motivation to write my first post in these forums. Actually, I have got to admit, that the SecuROM / DRM - Threads were and still are the ones I'm most interested in, despite the fact that - as already stated repeatedly - the points made are repeated over and over again. Or at least it might look that way. I, personally, have found it to be very interesting for the very reason that points might have been the same, but were often stated or phrased differenty, more often than not shading some new light or even adding a tiny but still importan facet to the ongoing discussion. And in this respect, I think, it has been - looking at the bigger picture - a very good discussion indeed, save for some incidents...

Thus I'd like to try and add a new facet to the discussion that might also serve to explain why some people are still upset about the whole issue and keep complaining (so this goes partially into the direction of Japester). In my opinion (just to make this clear from the very beginning) those people have a valid point and are not just trying to be agitators or just want to complain simply because of the sake of complaining. And despite the reasons that have been mentioned before, often even several times, there might still be a some other arguments to strengthen those often stated points, without repeating them again.

One issue that just came to my mind while reading the most recent posts in this thread concerns the general development of copy protection and DRM-schemes. As already stated, EA has in some way gone public with the fact that with the install of "Hellgate London" it will reserve itself the right to gather data on the user's systems including hardware, OS and installed programs and grant third party companies that are in some way iffiliated with EA the right to have insight in this data. At least, they mention this in the EULA. Bioshock or rather SecuROM also gathers data on the user's systems and while it is said to be just a hardware fingerprint and that no one is able to reconstruct which data has been gathered at all, it gathers data. And that happens after SecuROM has been installed without user consent and in a secret way, as the data stream is encrypted and hidden.
The reason why I am going at length to describe the whole process again is in order to be able to make a comparison: Although I am not pretty sure about the exact laws and reglementations in countries like the US as I'm of German nationality (although currently residing in the US), I understand that there are similar laws in place here as there are in Germany and several other European countries. The point is that there has been an ongoing discussion in Germany over the last year whether or not the state is allowed to gather information and data on a person's computer, the installed programs, the internet connections and the general way this particular person tends to use his or her computer by technical means that are similar to that of viruses and trojans. One central point in this still unresolved discussion was that it would happen without the user knowing that a trojan is present on his or her system and without the person knowing, that data is gathered at all. As a PC is also part of my home and that home is protected by law, the same regulations apply necessarily in order for the state, including the police or intelligence agencies, to get access to my computer as they apply to a house search: I have to be present (at least initially) while the house search is commited in order to ensure that I am aware of the very fact, that my house is being searched. This fact alone makes this whole trojan-computer-search-thing illegal, even with the consent of a court.
Additionally, searching my computer without me knowing it would violate my right for information self-determination.

What all this has to do with copy protection, DRM, EA and Bioshock? Well, I do not really see why a state should have to consider this issue of gathering personal data on one of its citizens for more than a year, while private companies just take that right. SecuROM and the means employed by EA invade my system, in case of Bioshocks's SecurROM-version without me initially knowing it, and transfer data that i might not at all be willing to give.

So, were exactly is the difference, because I'm not quite sure whether or not my reasoning might be flawed?!

Additionally - and that goes into the direction of the future development of the whole topic - it might be correct, that SecuROM has been around for a very long time and that most people didn't have any troubles with it whatsoever, in contrast to StarForce, for example. Still, this is a whole new step in copy protection and DRM implementation and while in the past people where willing to accept the existence of SecuROM on their systems - given they knew that it was there - this "mutual understanding" (an idea also already voiced in this thread) might be broken by the steps taken by several companies.
Furthermore, I tend to see a certain development in the entire PC Gaming industry. Although I know that EA ist not the very evil it is often said or believed to be - I guess they are just trying to do what is sound in their positiv: to make money by any means and the least investment possible, and I guess, up to now that has worked pretty well - I still have to admit that I do not like, what I see. More and more companies are bought, so that the classic developer - publisher relationship seems to become a model of the past. And at the same time, the developers lose their power as they are part of the very company that publishes their games. While in the past developers might had have the possibility of choosing another publisher if they were not happy with the publisher, for example in terms of the copy protection employed, this free market principle seems no longer to be in place, giving me a hard time, personaly, to buy games with good conscience.

As an example: I would really like to buy Crysis when it is released, because - despite the fact that I do not really think that graphics is the most important thing in a video game - I'd like to support a once small and until Far Cry completely unnoticed small german developer. I'd also like to support CryTek, because I don't really want all the next generation FPS and RPG Games look the same because they just all use the easy to modify, easy to use and platform independend UT3-Engine. In one word: I'd like to support those able to compete with the self-claimed standard in the business (once again, just my opinion). Nonetheless, after the Bioshock, SIMS 2 and Hellgate London fiascos, I've become quite careful, especially as Crysis is published by who? Right, EA. And up to now I have not been able to find any information on the employed copy protection and whether or not it will use the same data gathering system as found in "Hellgate London".

Just call my paranoid or whatever, but I simply agree with those stating that now might be a time, where those "mutual understandings" (see above) between consumer and producer seem to be challenged and might go unnoticed if the consumer's position is not voiced but rather silenced. I don't want to call it common ground when a private, international company can do something that even the highest authorities in my state is not allowed to, despite some other things I would not like to see as a standard in the future of PC Gaming. This includes, but is not limited to install credits as a means of a "renting" - rather than a "buying" - scheme for PC games. But, frankly, I don't want to repeat all those arguments. Still, I, personally, cannot understand how any other person can still find relaxing sleep with this possible development just at our doorsteps. I think, these are important issues and issues that have to be discussed now before they become common practice and not after they have become common practice and more and more people are realising what really happened.
Of course, gaming is just a hobby, nothing that is necessary to survive, but still electronic entertainment becomes more and more integrated into our daily lifes, in one way or the other, and it might be that it will evolve from just a hobby to a standard so that we might, at some point far in the future, no longer be able to refrain from paying attention to this standard as we still can stop playing games today and shift our attention to a completely new hobby. Thus, I think this whole issue might still be important, although it is currently "only" affecting one growing industry and the still few but equally growing number of people who call this their "hobby" and who are still able to just quit playing. I hope, I could get my point across...

Thank you very much for your attention!

Regards,

DarkLight

[AbsoluteBS]

I beg to differ. Everyone knows the Timex system on the c64 was the hardest to crack ;>

I started on the Dragon 32 / BBC - I had a C64, but it didn't do much for me, so was never part of that scene. Although I still have an original ZX81 :p I still remember doing the original BBC Stryker's Run / Repton cracks though!

Ok, let's bring this down to the nuts and bolts.

A) Arguing over whether or not you need to crack something, or merely alter the .exe to avoid the third party protection is largely the same thing. You're going in there, altering the code to its original state. This is obviously the real issue: the original code doesn't figure in the protection (any more), its tagged on afterwards. This allows a cracker / pirate / whatever huge advantages. If you can get a shot at an untainted file, or in the case of third party, see where its addressing the game, then its over. Ciao. This is the fundamental weakness of third party DRM, and why they fail: they're third party. They're accessing the game / being accessed from the outside. Which means if you can read the accesses, er... you can stop the game requiring them. Thus your nine days (which was actually less - the nine days is related to the 6 gig download. Quite simply, we're nowhere near QC / streaming play, because its physically not possible atm to get decent 8+ d/ls in 95% of the world. 6 gigs is still a huge amount for a currant).

B) Procedural protection was abandoned early on, for one simple reason: bad PR. People got hold of 'so called' cracked versions of a game (I mentioned Exile for a good reason) and then saw that the game wasn't working properly, and instead of realising the reason why (i.e. the coder had been sneaky, and was deliberately breaking the game) they whined that a product was 'buggy'. Hence, bad PR for the company, and it was quietly ditched - even back in the day, Amiga games got incredibly easy to crack after the suits got control of the companies. So, in essence Marketing departments are responsible for the ease and ubiquity of piracy. They chose to go with front end add ons, and not real protection. This is why I'm always unsure of modern tech problems - although its not industry standard not do something, I'm old enough to know how hard it is to check for 'product degradation'.

C) This leads us to the real reasons for them: which is quite staggering. Games companies need to show to investors / the stock markets that they're responsible for protecting intellectual property rights. Nothing more. Without it, their stock price is deemed 'unsafe'. Doom III is a case in point: bad sales on the PC, great sales on the consoles. This was blamed on huge amounts of piracy. In fact, it was due to the PC market showing DIII for what it was, a mediocre game, that totally failed to take HL2's market lead - however, Carmack needed to protect his companies' brand and so blamed it on piracy. Nothing of the sort - but after he'd learnt the hard way over the boom & bust in the games industry he'd helped create, he needed a scapegoat. Third party DRM helps this because it takes the responsiblilty for said 'market trust' out of the publisher's hands. In this case, the market doesn't have to trust 2K games (small fry) but Sony (huge multi-billion $ company). Which do you think is easier to sell to the market? This is important - the largest lesson that IG/TTLG learnt was this: if you go into the market as it was, you get burnt out, even if you have X successes because a bad self-producing deal and a couple of flops and a bad contract with MS can destroy you. The market is no longer as it was - and DRM isn't about the customer (to a large extent) its about the willingness for the market to keep investing in you. Origin - failed due to not being able to secure loans. IG/TTLG - failed due to not being able to secure loans. DRM sanctioned by Sony gives big weight to your credit rating on the markets.

Here endeth the lesson on the realities of the game industry.


Anyhow, that's enough for tonight. Oh, and about console cracks - the fact is that you won't get reliable figures on them - its where the real criminal stuff is at (rather than the majority of the PC scene, which works through currants now) as you have to produce exact printed duplicates - with bells & whistles. Suffice to say - its a growth industry, to be sure.

But, trust me. 1.5 mil sales, and look at the PC share. You really think that Securom protected the game? It wasn't on the Xbox versions, it didn't have to be - its there as a share price protector.

[ZippyDSMlee]

Like the direction they take games in, with DRM they will save more money by making sure the most amount of people can not easily copy or borrow a game, leaving the few hard line people to boycott or wait till tis copied after they get as much out of it as they can in the short run.

I am not anti DRM as much as anti consumer DRM, I dislike steam because it gives the appearance of spying on the consumer,I dislike it to the point where I will not have anythign to do with it and wait till a game is fully cracked before I will buy it, steam has its merits and is probably the better protection system yet as long as the data gathering is limited to crashing,mods,cheats and what not.

What I am getting at is that DRM dose not need to get into the spy ware business,if they want to do that then the goverment will be dragged screaming and crying into this to fix a issue its friends created and frankly it might be a slap on the wrist or heavy fines to each industry partner involved either way the DRM indutry needs to change its focuse and do it befor the bi polar goverment decide to make up their minds on the subject..

I just spent 400 on a 8800gt 610 super clocked card and I have yet to open it yet because the indutry is making me question my purchase that badly,I really should send it back and get a WII or some Xbox/Ps2/GC/Saturn/DC games.... and just steer clear of the new stuff for acouple years till this nonsence blows over...

[AbsoluteBS]

No edit button? Hmm. Someone needs to learn some proper forum protection / time stamping.

Note that I'm not getting into whether or not securom is right or wrong. An important point to realise is that the list from the intarweb is actually incorrect - that long list of games actually fall under several different generations of Securom, each doing different things - as any person getting around it knows. If you need proof, see the difficulties the new generation is giving old games that use it, and why stripping out the new version is breaking older games that use it. Sony and securom is basically a test base for DRM, and has been evolving since it was first used. The first ones are no worse than crap casual games from popcap use. The new version is rather pernicious, but only because it doesn't have a nice GUI like Steam. Steam is just marketed a whole lot more honestly, and better - but its essentially doing the same thing.


All I'm hopefully pointing out is that this is an industry, and a business now. Being honest, the customer no longer matters individually. Getting a secured credit line and good stock price is more important than pissed off posters on a forum. As

[AbsoluteBS]

Like the direction they take games in, with DRM they will save more money by making sure the most amount of people can not easily copy or borrow a game, leaving the few hard line people to boycott or wait till tis copied after they get as much out of it as they can in the short run.


This is false.


A) The piracy industry is no longer that innocent age of cracking a game for your friends / competition on a BBS. Real piracy involves pressing 10k copies / hour to CD and hawking them on the black market. If you really think that people are pressing 10k++ copies without the crack, then you're delusional. This myth of the bedroom pirate adversely affecting sales has been dead in reality for over 15 years. Go to a car boot sale / open market for the reality. This isn't including the obvious currant issue. Its not the mafia either - well, it is, but not how you imagine it. The overblow adverts on films / games claim you're funding them. Actually, the pirate market is merely providing a small cash flow addition to their current portfolios. Nothing more. Most pirate operations are too small for organised crime to be interested in: 1.5 million copies sold? That's what? Let's say we double that and add a nought for worldwide piracy profits: $30 mil. Reality check kids - $30 mil is a single large shipment of cocaine / heroin. Yeah, right its worth their time, apart from a licensing deal where they get a cut of profits to protect the sellers of cracked games.

B) 2K games saved no money at all by using securom. If they didn't know it would be cracked immediately, they need to fire people and hire people like me. Its for the share price, nothing more.


Can we discuss this as adults, please?

[ZippyDSMlee]

No edit button? Hmm. Someone needs to learn some proper forum protection / time stamping.

Note that I'm not getting into whether or not securom is right or wrong. An important point to realise is that the list from the intarweb is actually incorrect - that long list of games actually fall under several different generations of Securom, each doing different things - as any person getting around it knows. If you need proof, see the difficulties the new generation is giving old games that use it, and why stripping out the new version is breaking older games that use it. Sony and securom is basically a test base for DRM, and has been evolving since it was first used. The first ones are no worse than crap casual games from popcap use. The new version is rather pernicious, but only because it doesn't have a nice GUI like Steam. Steam is just marketed a whole lot more honestly, and better - but its essentially doing the same thing.


All I'm hopefully pointing out is that this is an industry, and a business now. Being honest, the customer no longer matters individually. Getting a secured credit line and good stock price is more important than pissed off posters on a forum. As

I understand what you are saying I am merely saying that the DRM dose not have to be so draconian of coarse industry will always walk on the backs of the consumer when given the chance to secure greater profit.

Steam dose not do heavy data gathering last I read,just keeps to game info.

the edit button was removed because alot of people edited edited their posts after saying stupid things,V bulletin dose not have a edit history so to keep things simpler they watered down the forum...mmm its kinda like what they do to the games they make ...LOL

[ZippyDSMlee]

This is false.


A) The piracy industry is no longer that innocent age of cracking a game for your friends / competition on a BBS. Real piracy involves pressing 10k copies / hour to CD and hawking them on the black market. If you really think that people are pressing 10k++ copies without the crack, then you're delusional. This myth of the bedroom pirate adversely affecting sales has been dead in reality for over 15 years. Go to a car boot sale / open market for the reality. This isn't including the obvious currant issue. Its not the mafia either - well, it is, but not how you imagine it. The overblow adverts on films / games claim you're funding them. Actually, the pirate market is merely providing a small cash flow addition to their current portfolios. Nothing more. Most pirate operations are too small for organised crime to be interested in: 1.5 million copies sold? That's what? Let's say we double that and add a nought for worldwide piracy profits: $30 mil. Reality check kids - $30 mil is a single large shipment of cocaine / heroin. Yeah, right its worth their time, apart from a licensing deal where they get a cut of profits to protect the sellers of cracked games.

B) 2K games saved no money at all by using securom. If they didn't know it would be cracked immediately, they need to fire people and hire people like me. Its for the share price, nothing more.


Can we discuss this as adults, please?


Funny piracy is selling illicit copies for gain, any "losses" from "sharing" comes for a company who can not change with the times (look at the music industry for example), the 360 version is far easier to copy and share and with soft mods its cracked from day one, bioshock was only cracked a few weeks after it was released, sure the disc check crack was done almost instantly but the activation crack took much longer, I should know I bought the damn thing before there were working cracks for it, that and I got it for 35 new and I was surprised I barely got what I paid for the game is a watered down detail lacking port made mostly for the console kiddies.


I pretty much believe industries version of "bedroom pirates" is from the endless void of the PR machine, sure I can see some sells being protected but the trouble comes from the ratios thos that know how to will most likely wait anyway, thos that wont wait are most likely newbs with more moeny than brains, creating draconian DRM and then forcing it on a game in order that it gets funds reminds me of the helthcare and insurance industries whining about uninsured drivers and lobbying to get all drivers to be insured while the insurance monopoly gets almost free reign in its own industry.

Ah assbackwards schemes be it tho not quite the same are none the less assbackwards....

[matches81]

@DarkLight:
Wow, that was a lengthy post :) Thx for typing that up.
I agree with you. It all comes down to that: The publishers constantly erode the "mutual understanding" that is a necessity for the consumer to buy a game with confidence. Spying at your customers, using copy protections that refuse to run the game if a specific other application is running on the customers system, are installed without notice and can't be uninstalled, even if the customer definitely wants it off.... all of that doesn't exactly support trust in a company.
I think I was exceptionally lucky with all the games that were "buggy beyond recognition" for many other gamers and I was willing to buy games at release up to Bioshock. I'm not going to buy a PC game at release day again. I will wait until I have found some info about copy protection and the EULA for the game, because I simply don't trust publishers anymore.

[Destop]

First off: welcome, Blacklight, and a good assessment of the situation. I don't see a flaw in your reasoning, but I guess companies like the colour green so much that they are trying to erode basic rights for the holy sake of advertising and free, automated marketing - without a reduction in price for the consumer, of course. As long as you keep it secret and noone notices, why not?

Luckily, they haven't touched our freedom of choice yet, so we can still vote with our wallets. It's a pity these practices take place on the back of great video games made by competent developers (probably because the quality of the game will push more people over the line), though. For me personally, that makes the whole situation, quite simply, repulsive. (cfr. the situation of music publishers vs. the artists)

I understand your concern about Crysis. A lot of gamers - me not included, alas - await its release with great anticipation. The only advice I can give you, is: don't get it at launch, be patient and wait until you find all the DRM/EULA info on the forums or news sites. If only to make sure whether or not EA has the Hellgate: London E(UL)A ready for Crysis.

I've been reading around a little, seeing a lot of comments that go like, "Suck it up, you will be seeing this all the time over the coming years". Well, okay, sure. But then, let everyone know up front what kind of scheme you're implementing and - important - lower the game's price. News papers and TV services are cheap because advertisements sponsor them. If advertising becomes the norm for video games, if the game only installs under certain restrictions and with the approval of HQ, then the price should go down - significantly.

A) Arguing over whether or not you need to crack something, or merely alter the .exe to avoid the third party protection is largely the same thing.

Which is why I stated that, as far as the basics are concerned, the game still is crackers vs. companies. However, the new DRM schemes are bringing the legit customers into the equation as well, and that is quite new. More and more, customers are being presumed guilty by the companies until proven innocent. Exactly the kind of situation which *must* be discussed on a higher level. The fact that - as pointed out by Blacklight - there is an important, related discussion going on in Germany, clearly indicates that laws need to be refined, and that crystal clear directive have to be communicated to the industry.

Thus your nine days (which was actually less - the nine days is related to the 6 gig download. Quite simply, we're nowhere near QC / streaming play, because its physically not possible atm to get decent 8+ d/ls in 95% of the world. 6 gigs is still a huge amount for a currant).

It's not "my" nine days. I can only state the things I have read, and I believe that around that time, people were talking about the release of a torrent which worked, whereas all the earlier torrents were fakes or No-DVD "fixes" only. How early it appeared exactly is not known to me, nor do I care, actually, because this thread is about issues with the legitimate product. Which are so intriguing by themselves that the existence of the warez version doesn't need to be considered - although I have seen it used repeatedly in "the warez version is out, why burden legit people with limited activation credits anymore?" style arguments.

As for QC, read my earlier post to Ryom. I didn't say it was going to be for today, but it will be something for the future, because controlled digital distribution is any publisher's wet dream. If they have the funds, it is quite likely that they will make it happen. I already heard of a Japanese digital TV station streaming game play to their customers, so the industry is definitely looking into it.

C) This leads us to the real reasons for them: which is quite staggering. Games companies need to show to investors / the stock markets that they're responsible for protecting intellectual property rights. Nothing more. Without it, their stock price is deemed 'unsafe'. Doom III is a case in point: bad sales on the PC, great sales on the consoles.

You're right. And personally, I don't have any problems with that. They can go batdoodoo insane with IP protection if it makes their investors happy, I don't care. As long as, by the time we are supposed to be buying the stuff, they let us in on it, too. No specifics, only relevant information (all of it) so that we can buy the product in good conscience.

This was blamed on huge amounts of piracy. In fact, it was due to the PC market showing DIII for what it was, a mediocre game, that totally failed to take HL2's market lead - however, Carmack needed to protect his companies' brand and so blamed it on piracy. Nothing of the sort - but after he'd learnt the hard way over the boom & bust in the games industry he'd helped create, he needed a scapegoat. Third party DRM helps this because it takes the responsiblilty for said 'market trust' out of the publisher's hands. In this case, the market doesn't have to trust 2K games (small fry) but Sony (huge multi-billion $ company). Which do you think is easier to sell to the market? This is important - the largest lesson that IG/TTLG learnt was this: if you go into the market as it was, you get burnt out, even if you have X successes because a bad self-producing deal and a couple of flops and a bad contract with MS can destroy you. The market is no longer as it was - and DRM isn't about the customer (to a large extent) its about the willingness for the market to keep investing in you. Origin - failed due to not being able to secure loans. IG/TTLG - failed due to not being able to secure loans. DRM sanctioned by Sony gives big weight to your credit rating on the markets.

Here endeth the lesson on the realities of the game industry.

Interesting theory, but how is this relevant for the DRM feature set used by Bioshock PC? If Bioshock PC had one of the previous incarnation of SecuRom (those with infinite installation credits), 2K Games would still show their stockholders that a multi-billion dollar 3rd party DRM system was in place. By your argument, 2K Games would be all fine and dandy. I wonder what other reality of the game industry could be responsible for what has happened now.

Anyhow, that's enough for tonight. Oh, and about console cracks - the fact is that you won't get reliable figures on them - its where the real criminal stuff is at (rather than the majority of the PC scene, which works through currants now) as you have to produce exact printed duplicates - with bells & whistles. Suffice to say - its a growth industry, to be sure.

But, trust me. 1.5 mil sales, and look at the PC share. You really think that Securom protected the game? It wasn't on the Xbox versions, it didn't have to be - its there as a share price protector.

Interesting, where can I find data on the PC share of Bioshock sales? And again, without cold, hard figures and/or studies as a means of support, I'm not going to make any statements about console hacking and warez.

[ZippyDSMlee]

First off: welcome, Blacklight, and a good assessment of the situation. I don't see a flaw in your reasoning, but I guess companies like the colour green so much that they are trying to erode basic rights for the holy sake of advertising and free, automated marketing - without a reduction in price for the consumer, of course. As long as you keep it secret and noone notices, why not?

Luckily, they haven't touched our freedom of choice yet, so we can still vote with our wallets. It's a pity these practices take place on the back of great video games made by competent developers (probably because the quality of the game will push more people over the line), though. For me personally, that makes the whole situation, quite simply, repulsive. (cfr. the situation of music publishers vs. the artists)

I understand your concern about Crysis. A lot of gamers - me not included, alas - await its release with great anticipation. The only advice I can give you, is: don't get it at launch, be patient and wait until you find all the DRM/EULA info on the forums or news sites. If only to make sure whether or not EA has the Hellgate: London E(UL)A ready for Crysis.

I've been reading around a little, seeing a lot of comments that go like, "Suck it up, you will be seeing this all the time over the coming years". Well, okay, sure. But then, let everyone know up front what kind of scheme you're implementing and - important - lower the game's price. News papers and TV services are cheap because advertisements sponsor them. If advertising becomes the norm for video games, if the game only installs under certain restrictions and with the approval of HQ, then the price should go down - significantly.



Which is why I stated that, as far as the basics are concerned, the game still is crackers vs. companies. However, the new DRM schemes are bringing the legit customers into the equation as well, and that is quite new. More and more, customers are being presumed guilty by the companies until proven innocent. Exactly the kind of situation which *must* be discussed on a higher level. The fact that - as pointed out by Blacklight - there is an important, related discussion going on in Germany, clearly indicates that laws need to be refined, and that crystal clear directive have to be communicated to the industry.



It's not "my" nine days. I can only state the things I have read, and I believe that around that time, people were talking about the release of a torrent which worked, whereas all the earlier torrents were fakes or No-DVD "fixes" only. How early it appeared exactly is not known to me, nor do I care, actually, because this thread is about issues with the legitimate product. Which are so intriguing by themselves that the existence of the warez version doesn't need to be considered - although I have seen it used repeatedly in "the warez version is out, why burden legit people with limited activation credits anymore?" style arguments.

As for QC, read my earlier post to Ryom. I didn't say it was going to be for today, but it will be something for the future, because controlled digital distribution is any publisher's wet dream. If they have the funds, it is quite likely that they will make it happen. I already heard of a Japanese digital TV station streaming game play to their customers, so the industry is definitely looking into it.



You're right. And personally, I don't have any problems with that. They can go batdoodoo insane with IP protection if it makes their investors happy, I don't care. As long as, by the time we are supposed to be buying the stuff, they let us in on it, too. No specifics, only relevant information (all of it) so that we can buy the product in good conscience.



Interesting theory, but how is this relevant for the DRM feature set used by Bioshock PC? If Bioshock PC had one of the previous incarnation of SecuRom (those with infinite installation credits), 2K Games would still show their stockholders that a multi-billion dollar 3rd party DRM system was in place. By your argument, 2K Games would be all fine and dandy. I wonder what other reality of the game industry could be responsible for what has happened now.



Interesting, where can I find data on the PC share of Bioshock sales? And again, without cold, hard figures and/or studies as a means of support, I'm not going to make any statements about console hacking and warez.

I believe he is stating the fund proration of gaming runs on DRM hype, or at the least the newer the better.

and not to diss anyone but I got 3 whole copies of the game the first 6 days, all uncracked or with broken cracks, of coarse the DRM is new and once cracked it will take less than a week to break newer variants of it , I still kinda wish I did not buy this mediocre game with more effort put into the DRM....

[stone438]

I bought 40 games this year. Some of them had SecuROM, which I didn't really like but could live with, since they have 'infinite' activations.
I was going to buy Bioshock, but given the severe limitations that I see I will not. I will also not buy copies for my friends and family. You have already lost 3 sales to this.
Further, I will not purchase any 2K games products ever again, if they continue to use so restrictive a method for DRM protection.
Even if the particular game I want doesn't have this scheme, I will not buy any as long as 2K tries this crap with a single product. Even if I'm looking at a console game, it won't be 2K.
I spend $1k - $2k a year on video games. That number will only increase, and 2K wont get a penny. Nice going guys!

[yogibbear]

I just tried to play Bioshock again today. As i felt it had been too long since my last visit to rapture. Guess what happened:

Step 1: Puts in dvd. Waits for securom to do it's 10 sec "is this a valid dvd... oh yer" thingy.

Step 2: Change some settings cause it doesn't detect my gfx card properly so i change to native res.

Step 3: Start New Game

Step 4: Loading the first level... woopdedoo this thing still takes 3 mins to load (as usual)

Step 5: Crash to desktop

Step 6: Restart computer

Step 7: Uninstall Bioshock

Step 8: Run Revoke Tool

Step 9: Remove the securom DRM crappy files. That are hidden and a pain in the arse.

Step 10: Restart

Step 11: Go look at some other games that are soon to be released that WILL NOT have securom and are release in a less bug ridden state.

Thanks 2k, the first time i played this it was an effort, but enjoyable, though your activation system is annoying as hell, i don't like, get rid of it, give me my .exe. Let me use my computer how i want to use it so i don't have to uninstall everything separately and use some flawed activation tool. The 2nd time. Well it didn't even let me play it a second time.

Fun times. I tried to play your game again, but NOooooo you don't want me to play it. Thanks. Cheers, Never buying another game from you again till you fix these major issues. It seriously should not take you this long. And oh why the hell no editor. I bet it's your stupid DRM that is breaking everything. Even those broken big daddies were shattered because they could sense the painful experience that all your unwitting customers were going to have when they opened your unmarked cases and unknowlingly installed securom on their machines, so they shattered.

Oh did i mention to say thanks again for the great experience. Rapture really does suck.

/End rant.:cool:

[toto952]

It is not about Bioshock this time.

Apparently, in Vista, hardware fingerprinting is done with information collected through device drivers (http://apcmag.com/vista_activation). So something trivial like changing drivers can lead the activation system to believe some physical hardware has changed. The activation use then a sort of "cumulative counter" of hardware changes and when, after some times, it hits a given threshold, it deactivate the operating system. So you must call tech support within 3 days so they might reactivate it, if they please.

So, what about Securom? What information is collected and how?

[darious]

B) 2K games saved no money at all by using securom. If they didn't know it would be cracked immediately, they need to fire people and hire people like me. Its for the share price, nothing more.


Possibly. There is the _possible_ factor that with screwurom delaying the inevitable crack by a few days that their sales would have been improved in the short term.

_Assuming_ that was the case, then whatever gains they obtained through screwurom has to be weighed against both short and long term losses due to negative customer sentiment.

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[..]DarkLight[..]

@matches81 & Destop:

Thank you very much for confirming my reasoning.

I guess, it wasn't really a problem typing that up. It was just a kind of outburst two month after the whole mess started and partially because I just cannot understand why some people don't seem to have a problem with all this happening. I mean, for me it's just an unbelievable contrast that a state - which has in certain margins the possibility and right to change laws and rules - has to discuss such invasive meassures and people get all aggravated about it while certain companies just take that right and people walk away, happily, not considering what this really means. I guess, I was just trying to find a new argument for those people to show what really is happening and why people are still upset and voice their opinions. Because, simply, seeing such developments it is theire right and in a certain sense even their obligation to do so... at least, if they fully understand what's going on. (once again, just my opinion ;) )

@Destop:
Well, I pretty much know that the colour green rules the world. It's a sad thing, but as we're most probably neither able nor really willing to change that, we have to make the best of it and use the power, it gives us, to - just as you said - choose. But choose wisely. That's, basically, all I've been trying to say.

I understand your concern about Crysis. A lot of gamers - me not included, alas - await its release with great anticipation. The only advice I can give you, is: don't get it at launch, be patient and wait until you find all the DRM/EULA info on the forums or news sites. If only to make sure whether or not EA has the Hellgate: London E(UL)A ready for Crysis.

Well, regarding that topic... I guess, you don't have to tell me that. I won't buy it on release. I'm just wondering, how many people will, not knowing what might be in the box along with the game. I mean, the hype's pretty big, too. I know a lot of people who think about "supporting the small developer" in the same way I do, but sadly most of them don't have a clue what exactly they are going to buy.
I guess, I'm just curious whether or not that will be the next fiasco in PC Gaming with respect to copy protection and DRM implementation. And with a lot of other highly anticipated titles to be released in the next couple of months we might even be in for more!

Regards,

DarkLight

[yogibbear]

Interestingly "the witcher" is only using Tages as their form of copy protection. Same one that was used in Gothic 3. I.e. there is no internet activation required. Oh and if you "do" decide to register the game online you get little perks on their website.

Hm... +1 purchase of the witcher.

Waits to see what copy protection schemes COD4 and Crysis are having.

[japester]

If credits are free for the asking, what purpose do they serve? This sort of scheme could have been implemented on the 360 version...but it wasn't. Why?

You don't know? I thought it was obvious.

The credit system was 2K's way of making sure that people acting like pirates (ie, rapid, multiple installs) were actually legit users. A very, very small number of legit users might install a game 5-25 times in a month or two, but that behavior is a lot more typical of illegal use.

2K goofed on the initial 2 credit limit. And they immediately upped it in response to the complaints. I see all of this as an ongoing attempt by the industry to determine what sets a pirate apart from a legitimate user.

Rather than seeing this as the apocalypse and 2K's way of "killing" the software, I saw it as their way of saying, "Hey, if you are going to make a large number of copies of our software, could you please send us an e-mail so we know you actually purchased it?" I consider myself a typical user (not a hardcore gamer, but I'm computer literate), and I install games once. Anyone with a decent rig must have 250-500Gb of drive space, so I don't understand the need to install and uninstall games constantly. Perhaps if you have frequent crashes and O/S installs, but that sure doesn't sound common. And that is what DRM software of the future should do--intelligently separate the common from the uncommon, hopefully to the frustration of the pirates. ;)

[Silus]

"Hey, if you are going to make a large number of copies of our software, could you please send us an e-mail so we know you actually purchased it?"

This is a very funny remark :rolleyes:
I hope you understand that they are NOT hurting pirates with this. Anyone that needs to call or e-mail support, to verify that they own the game, are always LEGIT customers. No pirate will do that, so, again, what's the point ?
To consider yourself a "typical" user that visits "pirate" forums (as you confirmed a while back, in a different thread) and not know this, is naive to say the least.

[AlexiR]

OFF TOPIC
Thats funny japester.
Ok lets for arguments sake say you have a 200gb - 500gb gaming harddrive, a drive used to store ONLY games (keeping in mind most users have more things on their PC than games and most install all programs/games to the default C drive as the game installer wants to do) over time you will have to uninstall, most modern games require either 2gb or more of storage, add to this having to defrag your drive every few months and its simpler to uninstall games you are NOT playing at the moment (leaving behind the save game folder so you can continue play at a later date) and defrag rather than have to defrag a whole 200-500gb drive full of data.
Also why do i have to conform to some ideal set by the publisher or you? If i want to install/uninstall game X 1 million times over the course of a 1-3 month period who are you or they to say i can't? I legally purchased my copy i have the right to install and uninstall as many times as i see fit.
All i have to do according to the EULA is not be using it on more than one PC at the sametime.

ON TOPIC
Back to activation credits are you kidding me, DRM on pc gaming may have once been about pirates but now its not, this type of draconian drm is about control of the media (resale etc) and not fighting piracy, look at the itunes/zune etc and all the rest, you can only play it on ONLY this device or that device and only a limited amount of transfers to other computers you might own, no resale possible or even giving it away, and all more expensive than if you had bought the physical cd and ripped it yourself.
The Pirates have already proven they have broken the drm scheme so why is it still being used?
Were it to be removed are legit users going to go wild and start making copies for their friends and giving away copies on the street?

[matches81]

You don't know? I thought it was obvious.

The credit system was 2K's way of making sure that people acting like pirates (ie, rapid, multiple installs) were actually legit users. A very, very small number of legit users might install a game 5-25 times in a month or two, but that behavior is a lot more typical of illegal use.

2K goofed on the initial 2 credit limit. And they immediately upped it in response to the complaints. I see all of this as an ongoing attempt by the industry to determine what sets a pirate apart from a legitimate user.

Rather than seeing this as the apocalypse and 2K's way of "killing" the software, I saw it as their way of saying, "Hey, if you are going to make a large number of copies of our software, could you please send us an e-mail so we know you actually purchased it?" I consider myself a typical user (not a hardcore gamer, but I'm computer literate), and I install games once. Anyone with a decent rig must have 250-500Gb of drive space, so I don't understand the need to install and uninstall games constantly. Perhaps if you have frequent crashes and O/S installs, but that sure doesn't sound common. And that is what DRM software of the future should do--intelligently separate the common from the uncommon, hopefully to the frustration of the pirates. ;)

So according to you, the online activation system and the credits are there to control the pirates, that don't use that system to begin with? Is it just me or is there no sense in that?
I can tell them "what sets a pirate apart from a legitimate user", pretty simple: Legitimate users have to use their online activation system and eventually might have to call the customer support. Pirates don't. Taking that from Bioshock to the generality: Pirates won't be bothered by online activation systems, limited install credits (that are "free for the asking") or illegal copy protection systems.
To sum it up: They have fun with the game as it was supposed to be while legit customers have to jump through all matters of hoops before they may do so. If they still can enjoy the game afterwards, that is.

[Jakester]

To make matters worse, the media you purchased at the store is worthless, because the "online activation" process downloads the executable. So, despite what you may believe (because there is no indication to the contrary), you did not purchase a game. You purchased some components to a game. Sort of like buying an expansion pack, but with those, they actually tell you that you need something else for what you purchased to be usable. In Bioshock's case, they don't tell you that.

[canuter]

I just wanted to express my empathy for those users who have buyed the game and have been through the nightmare of installing/uninstalling/activating this game.

I was really looking foward to buy Bioshock, but this new copy protection policy has gone too far. As other members have already explained, this type of license its almost a rental instead of a purchase. I will never buy a game with such restrictive license and that requires internet connection just to activate it.

Good bye.

[immateriaux]

Interestingly "the witcher" is only using Tages as their form of copy protection. Same one that was used in Gothic 3. I.e. there is no internet activation required. Oh and if you "do" decide to register the game online you get little perks on their website.

Hm... +1 purchase of the witcher.

.

That's very good to hear, I'll definitely purchase that game now

[darious]

That's very good to hear, I'll definitely purchase that game now

It's definitely on the list for me as well.

Anyone heard anything about what Assassin's Creed will be using? That's another game I'm interested in but if the developers have their heads as far up as 2K Games does, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot credit card.

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[Destop]

Darious, I'll take a look at Assassin's Creed shortly, but if you are really interested in the game, why not go to the official forums and start a thread about it, like matches81 did for The Witcher?

In the meantime, here's the official response to Hellgate: London's interesting Eula subsection number three:

We just made some big announcements about Hellgate: London, and it’s been great to see all of the excited comments regarding what we have in store for our players on day one and onward. On the flip side, we’ve also heard grumblings about the EULA that went out with our DX9 single-player demo.

We want to make something very clear. We are in no way scanning your computers for your personal information or taking any personal information without your knowledge. The only time that Flagship or Ping0 would collect your personally identifiable information is when you actually decide to give it to us. Examples are when you create an account for Hellgate: London online or when you provide us your personal information when you enter a contest. The language in the portion of the EULA that has been cited is actually fairly standardized language that is used in the vast majority of EULAs for recent on-line software. It was unfortunately also somewhat broad in scope and potentially ambiguous in nature in an attempt to keep the legalese at a minimum.

This catch-all statement was included so that we have the ability to determine if someone is using hacks, unauthorized mods or other abusive applications while playing the game which spoils the gameplay for everyone else. We also use this catch-all to protect other parties offering technical support, such as our online provider, Ping0. This is a completely legitimate function and other leaders in the MMO space do it in an effort to stop hackers and provide better technical support. In order to stop hacks and cheats, as well as attempts at outright fraud, we may need the ability to scan our player’s computers for applications running at the same time as our game. This paragraph was designed to be able to allow for such functionality. It is also important to point out that EA does not determine what we do in regards to online and offline for our game security.

My thoughts:

Yes, no personal information is collected, as in my name, address, etc. But the clause does permit (without limit) access to my PC's IP, installed hardware and software. Sure, that's nothing "personal", but collecting this kind of information for all the users (and keeping it up-to-date) is sure to be someone's wet dream at the marketing department. And the clause makes it all happen. Sorry, but I will not be a part of that.

This explanation above does not stop this clause from BEING a catch-all or it being changed to reflect the above clarifications, so this is basically a plea to the consumers to trust EA. Trust EA, they will not give in to temptation and abuse this clause in any way.

Sorry, but trust has to be earned and since you, dear EA, do not seem to trust us (as demonstrated in your quote in the last paragraph - fraud, you say?), why should I trust you?

[Destop]

Ahh,

Looks like you ( well, at least a darious777) already started a thread about it in the Ubi forums. Great to see some individuals - after finding out what DeeArrEmm stands for - thinking you were getting ready to crack/bootleg it :rolleyes:. *pats Darious on the back*

Anyway, there's a rumour flying about that four Ubi games will be delayed... if that's the case and Assassin's Creed is a part of it, then you'll have to wait a couple of months before the devs and pubs will even remotely consider adding DRM. I have no idea about the DRM that is going to be used.

[Silus]

At least this Bioshock DRM debacle, made some people realize what's really happening , behind the curtains. PC versions of course. The VIP console customers don't have to deal with any of this. Others, however, continue to ignore and sometimes even approve of these measures. Which is jaw dropping IMO. People not caring for their own rights ? What gives ?!...:confused:

[Jakester]

Well, when something like 1/3 (or more, I don't recall exactly) of high school students in the States belive that the government should be able to regulate free speech for things like newspapers that are overly critical of the government, what do you expect?

[Jakester]

Oops...it's almost half! http://www.kidspeakonline.org/knightstudy.htm

[yogibbear]

And for some side entertainment:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729

[Destop]

And for some side entertainment:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729

That thing is from 1992?! I saw it on Youtube and thought it was some relic from 1986 or something like that =)

Here's a video I like a lot:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3980990769014487143&q=computer+trust&total=489&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

Apparently, game companies are getting tired of waiting for the "trusted computing" chip, and do the kind of stuff we're seeing here, and there. And perhaps soon, everywhere.

[ddave]

My thoughts:


Good points, but don't (just) tell us--I hope you've let them know directly as well.

[ddave]

Interestingly "the witcher" is only using Tages as their form of copy protection.

I thought Tages did some sort of driver level intervention along the lines of Starforce? Is it less bad than Starforce? Does it not cause problems?

I'd never heard of 'the witcher' but I'm interested now. (What a way to gain publicity, but good for them.) If Tages isn't a problem I might buy it.

[Destop]

I thought Tages did some sort of driver level intervention along the lines of Starforce? Is it less bad than Starforce? Does it not cause problems?

I'd never heard of 'the witcher' but I'm interested now. (What a way to gain publicity, but good for them.) If Tages isn't a problem I might buy it.

Well, I might address EA a little more directly, but to be honest, after EA's rebuttal, I doubt there's anything left to add =)

About TAGES - from our good friend Wikipedia:

With respect to stability, there is not much evidence of any significant trouble arising from the deployment of the TAGES device drivers on a given PC. However, there is one known case in which an update was produced by TAGES SA, to address conflicts with some unorthodox software products, as reported by some players of a TAGES-protected PC game, Darkstar One, in its English version.

You should still be able to Google up the discussion on the Darkstar One forum.

[Destop]

Meh, I don't see a need to butt in more actively... it's all over the news already, just Google "Hellgate: London EULA explanation" and read away.

[darious]

Ahh,

Looks like you ( well, at least a darious777) already started a thread about it in the Ubi forums. Great to see some individuals - after finding out what DeeArrEmm stands for - thinking you were getting ready to crack/bootleg it :rolleyes:. *pats Darious on the back*

Ah yep. That's me. Fishing around for information on how to crack the game because I'm just a filthy pirate... at least in 2K Games's eyes.


Arrrrr....


-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[Destop]

Arrrrr, best not be forgetting Ubisoft too, matey! =)

Oh, and I just found out that if I wanted to discuss Hellgate: London in the Hellgate: London forums, I'd need to have a Hellgate: London account, meaning I'd have to buy Hellgate: London, agree to the EULA, enter personal data to create the account and then I could go all ballistic on Hellgate: London's EULA straight in the lion's den where only Hellgate: London players would be able to read it =).

[darious]

Looks like Orange Box is off the list - at least buying it from Steam.

http://consumerist.com/consumer/complaints/valve-deactivating-customers-who-bought-orange-box-internationally-314690.php

The following excerpts should sound somewhat familiar:

"All their products are activated online via unique serial numbers through the Steam service."

"One week later, Valve, via the Steam program, inactivated all Orange Box games (after they had already been active for some time), stating that they are in the "incorrect territory."
There was no warning or anything, just completely inactivated. "

"The thread that was started on www.valve.com has been removed by the operators there."

Oh look - an online activation scheme that has arbitrarily hosed over it's paying customers. Who could have ever imagined anything like that happening....

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[darious]

er.. Valve. Not Steam.

It's not acceptable to edit our own posts but bot delivered spam is?!?

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[ddave]

Meh, I don't see a need to butt in more actively... it's all over the news already, just Google "Hellgate: London EULA explanation" and read away.

Wow, that was...extensive. And ugly. I'd like to think some of the fallout from Bioshock has helped to sensitise people to what's happening.

[immateriaux]

Arrrrr, best not be forgetting Ubisoft too, matey! =)

Oh, and I just found out that if I wanted to discuss Hellgate: London in the Hellgate: London forums, I'd need to have a Hellgate: London account, meaning I'd have to buy Hellgate: London, agree to the EULA, enter personal data to create the account and then I could go all ballistic on Hellgate: London's EULA straight in the lion's den where only Hellgate: London players would be able to read it =).
Just went to that site to have a look around and they can go sling their game to hell for all I care, ridiculous clumsy shackled interface for a start but the very idea of only getting info once you've already bought the product is out of order - what is it with this new "gamer = sucker" philosophy from gaming companies? Started with 2K, now evidently spreading further afield. Course, some think everything will just get better :rolleyes:

[toto952]

Looks like Orange Box is off the list - at least buying it from Steam.

http://consumerist.com/consumer/complaints/valve-deactivating-customers-who-bought-orange-box-internationally-314690.php

The following excerpts should sound somewhat familiar:

"All their products are activated online via unique serial numbers through the Steam service."

"One week later, Valve, via the Steam program, inactivated all Orange Box games (after they had already been active for some time), stating that they are in the "incorrect territory."
There was no warning or anything, just completely inactivated. "

"The thread that was started on www.valve.com has been removed by the operators there."

Oh look - an online activation scheme that has arbitrarily hosed over it's paying customers. Who could have ever imagined anything like that happening....

Wow, great example of why activation sucks (even if it is claimed it has to be done only once).
Valve do has the power to destroy any product you have bought for them, and for any reason. Even if it seems in violation of international commerce rules, just to keep prices artificially high in "richer" countries...
Activation servers are their own law, the judgment and the sentence.

[trexmaster]

Honestly, I don't care what 2K will do anymore, I not buying a single game from people who treat their customers like **** again. I've stopped buying music and videos, I can also stop buying games.

Also I'm not buying Hellgate : London, no way I'm gonna let any company collect data on my computer and sell it.
And I'm waiting to see what kind of **** Crysis reserves us in its EULA.
And I didn't bought World In Conflict because it also uses SecuROM.

Treat me like a thief and you're going to lose more than one sale.

That definitely was my last message.

Badbye :mad:

[yogibbear]

Have been reading the witcher forums...

And Tages reportedly "will not let you play the witcher with daemon tools."

Now i asked for clarification as to whether that means:

a) having it have run since turning the comp. on,
b) or, simply having the program installed
c) or using daemon tools to run without a cd of the witcher

But so far no official response. Let's hope it's the latter.

But that's about all it does. So... i'll start getting worried about scratching up my Visio and Microstation cd's again if i'm to get the witcher if case b) is how it works. Let's wait and see.

[Destop]

Break out the champagne,

I finally caved in and returned my unopened hardcopy of the Bioshock PC software to the store where I purchased it for a cash refund. After pointing out the state of affairs concerning the product, 50 Euros exchanged hands (even though it was well past the store's return date) and I was on my way.

Finally, this is over. Sorry mr. Levine, looks like I'll have to enjoy your creation some other time or not, time will tell.

My apologies to Community Manager 2K Elizabeth and the mod-ship, should I have hurt their feelings. They've been caught in the crossfire between me (and others) and the person(s) who are truly responsible for this debacle, who used the mod-ship as a "shield" to hide behind. In a sense, they are the police cordon set up between the protesters and the politicians. They're not really "the bad guys", but just doing their job while being paid or supported by...

And, thank you, in a way, for sensitising me about DRM. Until the government creates a firm legislation for this entire thing which is acceptable for both consumers and companies, until forms of IP protection have been developed which are trustworthy and non-intrusive, until software companies learn to be transparent and supply relevant information from the start, I'm going to steer clear of any software product - no matter how good it is - requiring any form of unreasonable internet activation, callback, monitoring or whatsoever. Buying PC games on release date is definitely over. As long as a company demonstrates that it doesn't trust me, I will not trust them or grant them access to my (digital) rights.

Plain, common sense, really. Farewell, and take care.

[yogibbear]

Have been reading the witcher forums...

And Tages reportedly "will not let you play the witcher with daemon tools."

Now i asked for clarification as to whether that means:

a) having it have run since turning the comp. on,
b) or, simply having the program installed
c) or using daemon tools to run without a cd of the witcher

But so far no official response. Let's hope it's the latter.

But that's about all it does. So... i'll start getting worried about scratching up my Visio and Microstation cd's again if i'm to get the witcher if case b) is how it works. Let's wait and see.


Okay i got a tincy bit of clarification.

So far...

It works like (c)

So Tages is still AWESOME!

Although supposably people with "some" models of lg dvd drives are having problems. But other than that. No drm, no activations, etc etc. Just a serial-key and dvd check.

[ddave]

And, thank you, in a way, for sensitising me about DRM. Until the government creates a firm legislation for this entire thing which is acceptable for both consumers and companies, until forms of IP protection have been developed which are trustworthy and non-intrusive, until software companies learn to be transparent and supply relevant information from the start, I'm going to steer clear of any software product - no matter how good it is - requiring any form of unreasonable internet activation, callback, monitoring or whatsoever. Buying PC games on release date is definitely over. As long as a company demonstrates that it doesn't trust me, I will not trust them or grant them access to my (digital) rights.

Plain, common sense, really. Farewell, and take care.



Hear hear. This is obviously the start not the end.

Nice exit.

[gmm1]

Break out the champagne,

I will not trust them or grant them access to my (digital) rights.

Plain, common sense, really. Farewell, and take care.


Very nice, indeed, Destop. I am afraid that it has come to my departure as well. You did better than I, Circuit City would not refund my money. Oh, well, not that expensive a lesson.

I also will never purchase a program at release again. I will wait and see if any bombs go off before purchase. That means all the holiday releases will be discounted by the time I elect to purchase or not. A means to recoup some of my dollars.

I am pursuing (in another venue) a means to require 2K to remove all installed code from my computer at their expense. Time will tell.

Perhaps the departure of some of the fans will send a message our words did not.

[darious]

Perhaps the departure of some of the fans will send a message our words did not.

Unlikely, for if they were customer oriented they wouldn't have put this crap on our system in the first place. Or, at the very least, they would have had open upfront disclosure about it.



-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[ZippyDSMlee]

Unlikely, for if they were customer oriented they wouldn't have put this crap on our system in the first place. Or, at the very least, they would have had open upfront disclosure about it.



-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

In order for the indutry to care one would have to join 10+ thousand gamers and boycott it even then they make more money off each item sold than hollywood dose so they can ignore it further....

[matches81]

Have been reading the witcher forums...

And Tages reportedly "will not let you play the witcher with daemon tools."

Now i asked for clarification as to whether that means:

a) having it have run since turning the comp. on,
b) or, simply having the program installed
c) or using daemon tools to run without a cd of the witcher

But so far no official response. Let's hope it's the latter.

But that's about all it does. So... i'll start getting worried about scratching up my Visio and Microstation cd's again if i'm to get the witcher if case b) is how it works. Let's wait and see.
I've been playing The Witcher for the last 3 days, behaves like a game should. And the copy protection is not bothered by Daemon Tools running, I think that it's option c), because a) and b) are definitely not the case.

On topic:

In order for the indutry to care one would have to join 10+ thousand gamers and boycott it even then they make more money off each item sold than hollywood dose so they can ignore it further....
I don't know, but I think that 2K easily lost more than 10k sales to the DRM methods used. Seeing they shipped 1.5 million copies of the game that's a whopping 0.667%, probably within their tolerance. Hopefully gamers just will be more aware of the possible issues a game can have or cause. I definitely am, thanks to 2K. Obviously the days you can just buy any game you like are over. What I'm trying to say: It shouldn't be necessary to actively join 10k or more gamers to boycott such methods. Gamers should be aware of these issues now and they should stay aware.

[immateriaux]

I've been playing The Witcher for the last 3 days, behaves like a game should. And the copy protection is not bothered by Daemon Tools running, I think that it's option c), because a) and b) are definitely not the case.

On topic:

I don't know, but I think that 2K easily lost more than 10k sales to the DRM methods used. Seeing they shipped 1.5 million copies of the game that's a whopping 0.667%, probably within their tolerance. Hopefully gamers just will be more aware of the possible issues a game can have or cause. I definitely am, thanks to 2K. Obviously the days you can just buy any game you like are over. What I'm trying to say: It shouldn't be necessary to actively join 10k or more gamers to boycott such methods. Gamers should be aware of these issues now and they should stay aware.

This is a key issue that probably could be considered a positive result from 2K's very negative treatment of customers: a lot more people will have been educated not to trust current game publishers and will take greater care in future.

I made the mistake of buying this on day 1 after reading a gushing review (unfortunately very misleading but that's a separate story) but I simply will not do that again. "Hellgate", for example, was on my short-list to buy but that game will not be bought now. I'll give far greater consideration to what restrictions are being placed on my game purchases for PC. However, alternatively, Atari has gained a purchaser with it's more enlightened approach to "The Witcher" which I will go buy that tomorrow. Thankfully there are bastions of sense that will profit.

[yogibbear]

Okay i got a tincy bit of clarification.

So far...

It works like (c)

So Tages is still AWESOME!

Although supposably people with "some" models of lg dvd drives are having problems. But other than that. No drm, no activations, etc etc. Just a serial-key and dvd check.

Read a little bit further matches... :D

Well the Crysis demo seems to not have securom or any drm on the .exe that i could find. So here's hoping there's nothing disgusting in the final release of that game either.:cool:

[ddave]

Well the Crysis demo seems to not have securom or any drm on the .exe that i could find. So here's hoping there's nothing disgusting in the final release of that game either.:cool:

Amen to that. I'm sure it would have been all over the web by now if there was anything nasty in it. Demo convinced me of what I'd already guessed: I'll certainly buy it. But only if there is no Bioshock style nonsense. Simple as.

And yes, The Witcher is looking good, but I'd probably nor have come across it except for this thread! Talk about unintended consequences...

[yogibbear]

And yes, The Witcher is looking good, but I'd probably nor have come across it except for this thread! Talk about unintended consequences...

My bad...

Unforeseen consequences ala hl universe :cool:

[darious]

I made the mistake of buying this on day 1 after reading a gushing review (unfortunately very misleading but that's a separate story) but I simply will not do that again. "Hellgate", for example, was on my short-list to buy but that game will not be bought now. I'll give far greater consideration to what restrictions are being placed on my game purchases for PC. However, alternatively, Atari has gained a purchaser with it's more enlightened approach to "The Witcher" which I will go buy that tomorrow. Thankfully there are bastions of sense that will profit.

Heh. The American release of The Witcher is scheduled for Oct 30 (tomorrow). Atari already has a patch out for it. 1.1a

Hmm....

Think I'll have to stop beating my head against a BSOD filled wall, toss out Bioshock after reading the walkthrough, and spend my money & time on a different game.

-------------

Scorecard:
2K Games purchased: 1
2K Games not purchased because of Bioshock: 1
People I've directly convinced not to buy Bioshock: 3
People I've assisted in their decision not to buy Bioshock: 2
Indirect assists: Unknown

[ddave]

My bad...


No bad at all, I wasn't referring to anything you said, just to how 2K has ended up advertising a competitor's game in a roundabout way... :)

[odawg]

Thanks for that. It's good to see things in black and white again.

As you are aware, my primary concern is number 4.

If it works as intended, the release of the revoke tool will mean that - by finely controlling your PC installations (and for the first time in a game, your uninstallations as well) - you can maintain a number of activations indefinitely.

Please take the following points back to your employers:

If all software required you to uninstall it before you could format your hard drive, the process of maintaining a machine would be unreasonably impaired.

Since Bioshock is the first instance of this in a game, it would be unwise for me to support this scheme. I would not like to see this protection used again, and so I cannot reasonably support it.

Since the activation no longer functions to protect the game from experienced pirates, and the CD protection continues to protect the game from inexperienced pirates, the activation no longer affects piracy. It serves only to inconvenience the customer. It would be wise, fair, and prudent to remove it.

If there are reasons why it is not possible to remove it, we would appreciate honest answers.

Remember: the demo contained securom, and there was no CD check or activation on the demo. So we do know that securom does not have to be removed in order for the CD check and/or activation to be removed.

You can remove the limited activations without leaving an unprotected executable.

Leave the CD check if you must. Remove the limited activations.

Please remove the cd check and leave the online activation!

[odawg]

Okay i got a tincy bit of clarification.

So far...

It works like (c)

So Tages is still AWESOME!

Although supposably people with "some" models of lg dvd drives are having problems. But other than that. No drm, no activations, etc etc. Just a serial-key and dvd check.

DVD check? man i hate computers.

[darious]

That's how a real publisher does it. ;) They make sure they are on top of the ball instead of letting it roll through their legs. 2K dropped the ball BEFORE Bioshaft was even released. (Just for the PC, since this game was for the 360 crowd to begin with)

I stopped caring about Biocrap the second I browsed through the fresh CD (before installing it) and found there was no EXE on it for the game. The rest of the crap surrounding it just made it even worse. The game is old news, I've returned my copy and gotten my money back, but retained my legal backup copy of the files and material to make it work, to use at a later date, for nostalgic purposes. (since the game was a rental, the money I paid for it was a temporary loan. :D )

I'm pretty much done on this forum, as it's function is nothing more than a fan boy meeting place. For those that have tried their best to make their voice heard about the crap DRM issues and such, I say THANK YOU. Thank you for having the free will and clear mind to speak your piece, even though you may have been silenced about certain issues, your words were still heard, and the word is out because of you. Take care, and keep pushing forward.

P.S. One last thought on all the issues we have spoken about.

Isn't it Ironic, that 2K, as company concerned about Piracy of their product, resorted to such actions and policies directly related to what a real pirate would do? Forcing us to hand over control, of what we can and can't install on our systems, that WE own, and hiding from us the fact that our money, that we paid out of our pockets, only buys us a limited and restricted product? Hiding software within the install process that can be potentially harmful (such as having to disable your AV and Firewall to even install the game) All of this without consent or customer knowledge. And AFTER some people only found out on their own, 2K still refused to acknowledge it, and/or FIX it. A perfect case of the pot calling the kettle black. The deceptive way that 2K has stolen everyone's money on the purchase of Bioshock for PC is the worst case of piracy I have ever seen. Basically a company that considered ALL of it's potential customers from the PC community CRIMINALS before the game was released. Who is the pirate again 2K? Call me one if you will, but I DID buy the game, and YOU never stated anywhere that I had to let you KEEP MY MONEY! :cool:

Well you do have to admit that 90% of any online game forum is _supposed_ to be a fanboi meetup. It's that last 10% where we fall in - customer retention and feedback.

There's a bit of customer service lore out there I've always found to be true. Sometimes how you recover from a problem is more important than not having had a problem in the first place. Think about it - there is always something going wrong. Nothing can ever be 100% perfect every time and what can set your company apart is how you deal with those mistakes.

XBox is still a viable gaming platform because Microsoft is spending a ludicrous amount of money in salvaging their reputation. Even if only 5% of XBox owners experience the dreaded red rings of death that is still way too high of a figure. It would tank the brand. Would you want to spend money on something that has a 1 in 20 chance of dying?

Microsoft is stepping up to their responsibility and is paying heavily to salvage their reputation.

2K Games is not. I guess everyone at the company is too young to remember the Intel floating point debacle. Intel had a flaw in their early pentium chips that impacted an insanely small number of their users - 1/1000th of 1% - maybe. However, instead of stepping up Intel said that they would replace the chip only if you could prove that it impacted you.
(similar to 2K Games's stance of "If you can prove you aren't a filthy pirate, we'll let you install your purchased game a few more times.")
That was a mistake on Intel's part and after a month of increasing pressure (and dropped sales) Intel finally decided to spend some money on backing their guarantees.

It took years for Intel to live that one down.

Why am I bringing this up? Because you mentioned that you are leaving and we've had a lot of long time dissidents recently announce that they are gone for good. I'm getting close to that point myself.

Either through arrogance or incompetence, 2K games and the forums mods squandered an opportunity to retain customers and build brand loyalty. It's like they put this forum up as an afterthought and not as a part of their customer satisfaction strategy. This would have been the perfect venue to have 2K's side of the story come out. Instead of we get stalled, banned, shunted off, ignored and at times out and out deceived.

After two months of this treatment folks are bailing. A miracle patch could come out tomorrow and it will be too late to retain any of the people who've signed off this past week.

Arrogance or incompetence... these folks are a group of people who will never buy another 2K product again. In my case I'm going to do what I can to talk my guildmates out of buying a 2K game. "Hey - isn't <game X> put out by 2K? Let me tell you about what happened when I last bought a 2K game..."
I doubt that I'm the only one who will do that.

Arrogance or incompetence... and I'm glad for it. I actually _want_ 2K Games to implode. I want every single employee of the company out of work, learning how to use the shift key to post resumes on Monster, competing with outsourced programmers, scanning Craigslist desperately because they don't know if they are going to be able to make rent.

Like Arther Anderson, I want 2K Games to become such a pariah that everyone who works there is too ashamed to list their time there on their resumes.

Why? I want 2K/Take-Two Games to become an example of why you shouldn't screw your paying customers over and if you choose to work for a company that screws it's customers over, you deserve to get burned as well.

Read my message history - I didn't start this angry. I got this angry fast though. The arrogance (or incompetence) of the staff on this forums lead me to this place.

[ddave]

There's a bit of customer service lore out there I've always found to be true. Sometimes how you recover from a problem is more important than not having had a problem in the first place.

[...]

Read my message history - I didn't start this angry. I got this angry fast though. The arrogance (or incompetence) of the staff on this forums lead me to this place.

Well, I did start angry. I thought I saw the way the DRM wind is blowing and didn't like it *at all*. Recent events (Hellgate London etc.) just seem to confirm it. But yes, I got angrier with the stonewalling over complaints after the first day when they announced the increase in 'credits' and the revoke tool (which still doesn't work properly). The company (not the forum moderation, which is something else) has come over as at best indifferent, at worst arrogant or paralysed with fear. Yes folks, that's the price of agreements which must be kept secret, to give a charitable explanation for the silence.

This would have been the perfect venue to have 2K's side of the story come out. Instead of we get stalled, banned, shunted off, ignored and at times out and out deceived.

Absolutely. I hope you feel your lawyers have earned their money. What a shambles.

But worse, as many have now said, all PC releases are under suspicion till this vicious step in DRM is beaten back.

So yes, this forum is winding down, and the mods are probably sitting there thinking they have been in a remake of Zulu or The Evil Dead. As a measure of what is to come though, I've felt for devs in previous contests with their publishers, but this time I actively detest 2K. (darious wins the prize for eloquence, though.) And it looks like Ken basically got bought off (leaning didn't seem necessary, really, and all the other port excuses) so I don't have much sympathy there either any more. I don't imagine I'm alone. Bad feeling breeds more bad feeling.

Reputations are hard earned and easily lost. (Well no, you have to try quite hard, actually.)

[matches81]

Just wanted to add to darious' great post:
In the case of a publisher, arrogance almost equals incompetence. A publisher's job is to sell the work of another party (be it a book author, film team or game developer) to the customers. As this is their job, basically they only have to care about two things: The logistics needed to deliver the product and customer relations, i.e. a good reputation with the customers. While 2K managed to get Bioshock delivered, they utterly failed in the second half of their job, which should be plain unacceptable for a publisher. Obviously the guys at 2K who make the decisions need more than 2 months to formulate a simple official statement about an issue that is clearly defined since the release of the game and could have been foreseen even before that. The mods reiterated some times that decisions take time and are not made from now to tomorrow.

How long does 2K take for doing their damn job? Got something better to do? Well, you shouldn't have.

And before someone tells me that they're working on a patch and don't have to time deal with our problems now: The developers are working on a patch, not the publisher. Getting an official statement from the publisher regarding this DRM crap shouldn't affect the development of a patch at all. Therefore working on a patch is no excuse for the publisher to ignore the complaints of their customers.

Well, I truely hope that 2K reap what they sow. The funniest thing is they still consider DRM as a protection against pirates and therefore as a reason for good sales. Every sensible person would see (at least after this mess here) that Bioshock sold despite this DRM junk because of its high quality and the good PR, not because a draconian and illegal DRM system was in place.

@2K Elizabeth: Could you tell us at least whether 2K is even considering this an issue? That shouldn't take too much time to decide I guess.

[japester]

Either through arrogance or incompetence, 2K games and the forums mods squandered an opportunity to retain customers and build brand loyalty. It's like they put this forum up as an afterthought and not as a part of their customer satisfaction strategy. This would have been the perfect venue to have 2K's side of the story come out. Instead of we get stalled, banned, shunted off, ignored and at times out and out deceived.

Perhaps 2K did the math and realized that the people who have been complaining about "draconian" security measures are in the extreme minority and aren't worth the fuss? If I had a huge customer base that was happy with my product (and completely unaffected by the DRM),and just a few that were screaming for my head, I would do whatever it took to get rid of the few dissenters. I'm not saying that's what 2K did, but it's a possibility. And it makes sense from a business standpoint.

See, that's the problem I have with so many of the habitual complainers. Nobody ever considers actual business strategy and motivations. The mindset is always, "2K didn't do everything they could to please me, so they must be evil or stupid! OR BOTH!!!" Come on, guys! :rolleyes:

There is a point of diminishing returns when creating a product. And the fact of the matter is that most folks installed Bioshock without a hitch, played without a hitch, and never had the install credit issue impact them because they may only install Bioshock once or twice in the lifetime of owning the product. The theory that forums are "90% fanboi" is ludicrous. Yes, people come here to talk about the game, but the forums are also the #1 support tool. And the rock-solid fact about customer feedback is that happy people will compliment you about 1% of the time while unhappy people will complain 100% of the time. So the complainers on this forum represented nearly all the unhappy folks, while hundreds of thousands of happy people played the game and never bothered to even look for this site.

I'm not trying to get into a debate about the DRM here, so let's not rehash that for the millionth time. What I am trying to point out is that pleasing every single customer out there isn't in the best interest of any company operating in the real world. It simply isn't feasible. And what this whole DRM debate may have just demonstrated is not that 2K is evil and greedy, but that the base of complainers is perhaps much smaller than they themselves realize. Food for thought.

[impar]

Greetings!Perhaps 2K did the math and realized that the people who have been complaining about "draconian" security measures are in the extreme minority and aren't worth the fuss?In that case, 2K forgot that this minority is the one that answers the tech related questions to the "Average Joe" majority. Both hardware and software, including which games are worth to buy.

[Silus]

Perhaps 2K did the math and realized that the people who have been complaining about "draconian" security measures are in the extreme minority and aren't worth the fuss? If I had a huge customer base that was happy with my product (and completely unaffected by the DRM),and just a few that were screaming for my head, I would do whatever it took to get rid of the few dissenters. I'm not saying that's what 2K did, but it's a possibility. And it makes sense from a business standpoint.

See, that's the problem I have with so many of the habitual complainers. Nobody ever considers actual business strategy and motivations. The mindset is always, "2K didn't do everything they could to please me, so they must be evil or stupid! OR BOTH!!!" Come on, guys! :rolleyes:

There is a point of diminishing returns when creating a product. And the fact of the matter is that most folks installed Bioshock without a hitch, played without a hitch, and never had the install credit issue impact them because they may only install Bioshock once or twice in the lifetime of owning the product. The theory that forums are "90% fanboi" is ludicrous. Yes, people come here to talk about the game, but the forums are also the #1 support tool. And the rock-solid fact about customer feedback is that happy people will compliment you about 1% of the time while unhappy people will complain 100% of the time. So the complainers on this forum represented nearly all the unhappy folks, while hundreds of thousands of happy people played the game and never bothered to even look for this site.

I'm not trying to get into a debate about the DRM here, so let's not rehash that for the millionth time. What I am trying to point out is that pleasing every single customer out there isn't in the best interest of any company operating in the real world. It simply isn't feasible. And what this whole DRM debate may have just demonstrated is not that 2K is evil and greedy, but that the base of complainers is perhaps much smaller than they themselves realize. Food for thought.

You're forgetting one thing, which is evident in almost every post from the "nothing is wrong" crowd, including yours, which is this:

"It doesn't affect me now"

No one ever complained about the "now", but about the precedent that 2K made, with these idiotic copy protection measures, which will no doubt, affect us all in the future. So we may be the minority, but what you call the majority, is in fact a majority that does not care about their rights or simply doesn't really know how this can affect them, in the future.
If this so called "majority" sucks it up and accepts everything 2K does, including the lies and deceit, then 2K will obviously feel it's ok to do it again, or make it worse in the future. As you said it yourself, there's no point in listening to the "minority", when the "majority", is ok with 2K not disclosing important info, about their own copy protection system.

[Silus]

Arrogance or incompetence... these folks are a group of people who will never buy another 2K product again. In my case I'm going to do what I can to talk my guildmates out of buying a 2K game. "Hey - isn't <game X> put out by 2K? Let me tell you about what happened when I last bought a 2K game..."
I doubt that I'm the only one who will do that.

No! You're not the only one. I've said the same thing myself in the past, while I was more outraged with all this situation, because I wanted to buy Bioshock and just couldn't, because of these measures.
Today, I don't care much about it anymore. 2K had enough time to address the issues, but they didn't care. I was surprised that the revoke tool actually existed, but given how it actually works, it's just a small band-aid, to a large open wound.
The forum moderation was a joke and some active members payed a high price for it, being banned for reasons that the 2K fanboys were never punished. So here we are, 2 months or more, after the release of the game and, besides the half working revoke tool, we're exactly where we were before. "2K" will be a synonym for "avoid" from now on. Trust is no longer present and they certainly didn't try to get it back. It seems that we are a "minority" and minorities are never important...:rolleyes:

[immateriaux]

Food for thought.
Simply? No.

In detail: You've nothing to substantiate the claim that we are in an "extreme minority" other than specious speculation. The evidence that can be found on this forum does, however, substantiate the reverse claim. As you know, the most visited, most hit thread concerned security measures and it continues to rumble on with new visitors adding their wholly negative reaction to what 2K did. Yet this forum is for both PC and XBox versions of the game but customers of the latter are not being impacted by the security issue at all. This would imply that the security issue is of far greater impact to customers than simple forum metrics implies.

Additionally, it is impossible to measure to what extent negative feedback influenced potential sales. I can name at least three people I personally dissuaded from purchasing Bioshock within my immediate peer group but can name none that have purchased it. Visitors to the site here, either members or guests, likewise may have been dissuaded: several posts indicate this to be the case but the number of guests that reached that conclusion is immeasurable. And there are other forums where I contributed to the Bioshock debate/debacle, some of which have been significantly more negative towards the game than here, but I'm sure there are plenty more I never visited.

Furthermore, the negative impact on future sales is impossible to measure, currently, both for 2K and other companies. As others have earlier stated, there has already been an impact on Hellgate's sales (and a nicely reversed impact on sales of "The Witcher"). Now that people have become more attentive to the, as you say yourself, draconian measures companies are putting in place, the future path of the impact 2k have had is very clearly yet to be determined.

All in all, what you have done is make a random guess based on your own prejudicial viewpoint but I think a company witnessing the extent of negative reaction both here and elsewhere would not be as light to dismiss it as you apparently are.

On that note, the vacuity of content in your post does not provide any food for thought whatsoever - it just confirms what most of us had, long ago now, realised that you were unable to see the wood from the trees. One could also highlight the fact that many of us here raised the whole Securom/Activation issue within the context of the 'future of gaming', especially on PC, but you have in the above just somewhat troll-ishly rendered that down to a fairly insulting "it's just about me" argument. This typifies the type of non-engaged, and somewhat purposefully ignorant, argument you've fallen back on repeatedly on this forum.

You mentioned "diminishing returns", it would apply aptly to the reading of your postings.

[Generic.Z]

Well all i can add, is after almost 2 months of watching and reading these boards waiting for 2K to 'do the right thing' for their customers, myself and a buddy of mine took our unopened and factory sealed copies of this game back to the store and got our money back. it took a lot convincing and explaining to the store manager since we both bought the game over a month ago... but he finally caved...

2k you lost 2 customers for life! don't mean much i know... but am hoping other companies will look at this disaster and will not follow in your footsteps! -- and if what am reading is true.. in that Hellgate London is using the same or similar tactics i will not be buying that game either.. which sucks because it looked like a fun a game.. but to be honest i need to do more research on that one...

- I really hope the future of PC gaming isnt doomed by your actions...

one can only hope....

[matches81]

@japester:
Your argument may be true for a manufacturer of goods. But as a publisher's main purpose is to get the product to the customer, their reputation amongst their customers should be considered a highly valuable good. 2K's choice of "copy protection" measures put a rather large dent on that reputation, their comatose behaviour following surely didn't help to fix that. I, like many others, have told everybody I know to stay away from 2K's products for now until 2K starts treating their customers properly. A publisher wants to sell goods to customers. They should value them.

In addition to that: According to your logic no software company in the world would have a technical support, because technical issues are experienced by minorities in 99% of the cases. Well, pleasing the minority is not in the company's interests, so... why bother at all?
Oh, right... we want to sell something to those people in the future, too. Let's treat them accordingly.
This issue is easily the biggest I've seen in every game's official forum I've been too, being voiced in two threads adding up to over 3500 posts and god knows how many views. The dent in 2K's reputation probably is the biggest any publisher has ever had and has spread well beyond their reach by now, hopefully.

[BloodRayne]

Simply? No.

In detail: You've nothing to substantiate the claim that we are in an "extreme minority" other than specious speculation. The evidence that can be found on this forum does, however, substantiate the reverse claim. As you know, the most visited, most hit thread concerned security measures and it continues to rumble on with new visitors adding their wholly negative reaction to what 2K did. Yet this forum is for both PC and XBox versions of the game but customers of the latter are not being impacted by the security issue at all. This would imply that the security issue is of far greater impact to customers than simple forum metrics implies.
One 'google' for 'drm bioshock' and 'securom bioshock' complete debunks his arguments. As we have debunked them in the past again and again. He just keeps coming back with the same rehashed and reworded claims that hold no truth whatsoever. Furhter discussion about this subject, here or with 2k is totaly futile.

Let me show you why, the reason is this: http://kotaku.com/gaming/more-bioshock-shock/bioshock-pc-+-you-only-install-twice-292222.php

This is what 2k's official response is:


hey guys,

first, let me say this. you DO NOT NEED TO USE THE INTERNET EVERY TIME YOU PLAY THIS GAME. it is only the first time.

second, you can uninstall and reinstall this game, and if, by chance, you have 2 computers you want to simultaneously play this game on, you also can do that.

if by some chance you are reinstalling this game without uninstalling it first, a lot, there is a chance you may have to call securom and get a key, or deactivate some older installations.

but if you upgrade your hardware next week, you'll still be able to play the game. if you revamp your system and need to reinstall bioshock, just uninstall it before you go through the overhaul, and then do your reinstall.

calling it "hardware fingerprinting" is a bit alarmist. we do not transmit any of your data to any companies.

really, the only people who will be concerned about any of these security measures are those who are rapidly putting bioshock on many pcs... if you use the game as you normally do, you won't notice this at all.


As you can see, in the eyes of 2k anybody that has *any issue at all* with securom is by their definition a pirate the illegally copies games. It's the same old, same old, totalitarian attitude of 'if you've got nothing to hide then why do you mind a camera in your appartment that the police can watch 24 hours per day?'.

It's total BS. This thread, this whole deal. 2k is NOT LISTENING to your concerns, criticism or otherwise. It just figures you to be a pirate, because only pirates have issues with DRM protection software.

Just give it up and stop buying their games, it's the only language they will ever listen to.

[BloodRayne]

Addendum:

Please report securom as malware that has been installed without prior notice here: https://www.afp.gov.au/online_forms/report_malware,_botnets,_trojans_and_virus_writing

Thank you.

[yogibbear]

The only reason that there isn't more people upset over the DRM "credit" scheme is because they don't know it exists yet.

If it was clearly written on the box, "You only get 2 installations" (or even 5 as it is now...) this would have been a MASSIVE issue, that would have come up in every review and been even bigger than it already was.

But nooo... 2k went down the "hush hush" path and thought what they don't know won't hurt them.

The fact is, because we didn't know until we purchased it, i feel used as a +1 stat to accepting draconian drm schemes in the future, because i wasn't given the choice prior to purchasing bioshock.

So my main reason for posting in this thread has become to basically say how used i feel as a customer. This drm is pathetic, unnecessary, and utterly insane from any viewpoint. I hope you get the message 2k.

[Silus]

I hope you get the message 2k.

Forget it. A message was sent at the time Bioshock was released. In fact, a message was sent even at the time of the PC Demo debacle. Over 2 months have passed and the only thing we have, is a half-working Revoke Tool, which certainly does not solve the problems, that these "install credits" BS create. If the message had gone through, install limits would've been removed a long time ago.
The only thing that changes in these forums, for the us "whiners" (as 2K fanboys so eargerly call us), is our post count...so really. it's time to give up. Just play the awesome games out there, such as Quake Wars for MP (which has amazing support I might add) and the Crysis SP Demo and show 2k, with your wallet, that what they did is NOT acceptable in any way.

[yogibbear]

Forget it. A message was sent at the time Bioshock was released. In fact, a message was sent even at the time of the PC Demo debacle. Over 2 months have passed and the only thing we have, is a half-working Revoke Tool, which certainly does not solve the problems, that these "install credits" BS create. If the message had gone through, install limits would've been removed a long time ago.
The only thing that changes in these forums, for the us "whiners" (as 2K fanboys so eargerly call us), is our post count...so really. it's time to give up. Just play the awesome games out there, such as Quake Wars for MP (which has amazing support I might add) and the Crysis SP Demo and show 2k, with your wallet, that what they did is NOT acceptable in any way.

Yep, well at least we've kept this topic on page 1 for 2 months, regardless of how much 2k consider this an "older issue".

[impar]

Greetings!

Just look at this threads title: Remaining SecuROM/Activation...

[yogibbear]

Greetings!

Just look at this threads title: The we're not listening to you so you can all go whinge here about SecuROM/Activation...

Fixed! :cool:

[BloodRayne]

The future of DRM software lies in game-streaming: http://www.streammygame.com/smg/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=new_user

This is where the developer hosts virtual machines (using eg. VMWare) and runs the software on their own servers and simply streams the content to the client.

I suppose that in 10 years from now all mainstream games will be offered with this kind of technology. At that point in time platforms won't be an issue at all anymore, neither will DRM software. Since it doesn't matter which kind of platform is serving the application. The games could be running on hardware that is a thousand times more strong than any client could ever afford.

At that time modding will be over (which it basically already is considering that no SDK will ever be released for Bioshock in any case).

[wilk0r]

Just look at this threads title: Remaining SecuROM/Activation...

Just like the REMAINING climate change concerns, or the REMAINING iraq war discontent...

This is nothing more than an attempt to diminish this issue through basic wordplay. Goddamn it annoys me that 2K still calls this a 'forum'. The word essentially means a 'public meeting place for open discussion', which this is clearly not.

"Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary." - George Orwell, 1984

We are all being forgotten as efficiently as possible. Wake up.

...Oh yeah, for the 17 Zillionth time, activations are cretinous and SecuROM needs to be shot.

Cheers

[trexmaster]

Just play the awesome games out there, such as Quake Wars for MP (which has amazing support I might add) and the Crysis SP Demo and show 2k, with your wallet, that what they did is NOT acceptable in any way.

That's what I'm doing :
- didn't bought BioSh*** and told everyone I know to keep away from it and from 2K/Take Two games
- just bought "The Witcher" today (looks fun)
- going to buy ET:QW as soon as my paycheck comes in. Even though I'm not too much of a fan of the ET series, they have a Linux client, which is reason enough to buy it, plus they don't screw over their customers
- going to buy UT3 as soon as it comes out (presumably on November 9th) for the exact same reasons as above.

I'm out.

[immateriaux]

Just bought the Witcher today myself. Guess I'll be seeing more of you on that forum now! At least Atari are benefiting, the first store I went to was sold out of copies of the Witcher, the second had just the one left behind the counter.

[BioshockVVins]

Forget it. A message was sent at the time Bioshock was released. In fact, a message was sent even at the time of the PC Demo debacle. Over 2 months have passed and the only thing we have, is a half-working Revoke Tool, which certainly does not solve the problems, that these "install credits" BS create. If the message had gone through, install limits would've been removed a long time ago.
The only thing that changes in these forums, for the us "whiners" (as 2K fanboys so eargerly call us), is our post count...so really. it's time to give up. Just play the awesome games out there, such as Quake Wars for MP (which has amazing support I might add) and the Crysis SP Demo and show 2k, with your wallet, that what they did is NOT acceptable in any way.

Lets not forget about all those who have been banned for no reason, other than talking about the DRM and the illegal methods used to distribute and install it.

BTW, add one more banned member to the list. PJ was the latest, even though he said he was pretty much done with the forums, he couldn't respond to a few last posts because he was silenced (and if you notice, now they hide the "Banning" by not adding it under the user name, sneaky 2K at it again.)

[BloodRayne]

Lets not forget about all those who have been banned for no reason, other than talking about the DRM and the illegal methods used to distribute and install it.

BTW, add one more banned member to the list. PJ was the latest, even though he said he was pretty much done with the forums, he couldn't respond to a few last posts because he was silenced (and if you notice, now they hide the "Banning" by not adding it under the user name, sneaky 2K at it again.)

I don't really buy that. I've been pretty vocal about all of this and made some outrageous claims (that happen to be the truth). I know I've put many people off of buying Bioshock as long as 2k continues to implement such intrusive DRM measures and I have not been banned.

I don't get the feeling that 2k wants to sweep this under the rug. I just think they don't care to change it.

[japester]

I don't get the feeling that 2k wants to sweep this under the rug. I just think they don't care to change it.

That was the gist of my last post.

And rather than assuming 2K is incompetent, evil, or insane (all of which are ludicrous), I suggested that maybe they aren't considering this a priority because it isn't an issue for most of their customers.

It's a security measure. Someone laughably compared the DRM complaints to fighting against global warming or terrorism. LOL!!! It's more like screaming bloody murder at those ubiquitous security scanners located at the exit to every store. Not because they've ever inconvenienced you....but because you heard from a guy who once walked through one, and it went off by accident, and an employee asked him to stand there for a moment and produce his receipt so he could check his cart. And that kind of embarassment is inexcusable! How dare they treat him like a criminal! And waste his time like that! Besides, those scanners don't really do anything to stop crime--real criminals just remove the security tags. Plus, people who steal from stores never intended to pay for those items anyway.

Again, none of this happened to me....and it may never happen....but I'm gonna fight until every store removes them anyway! Because I'm a noble freedom fighter!




Oh, I gotta stop.....I got the mad giggles near the end...... :D

[Grinsomx]

That was the gist of my last post.

And rather than assuming 2K is incompetent, evil, or insane (all of which are ludicrous), I suggested that maybe they aren't considering this a priority because it isn't an issue for most of their customers.

It's a security measure. Someone laughably compared the DRM complaints to fighting against global warming or terrorism. LOL!!! It's more like screaming bloody murder at those ubiquitous security scanners located at the exit to every store. Not because they've ever inconvenienced you....but because you heard from a guy who once walked through one, and it went off by accident, and an employee asked him to stand there for a moment and produce his receipt so he could check his cart. And that kind of embarassment is inexcusable! How dare they treat him like a criminal! And waste his time like that! Besides, those scanners don't really do anything to stop crime--real criminals just remove the security tags. Plus, people who steal from stores never intended to pay for those items anyway.

Again, none of this happened to me....and it may never happen....but I'm gonna fight until every store removes them anyway! Because I'm a noble freedom fighter!




Oh, I gotta stop.....I got the mad giggles near the end...... :D
smart way to twist words and issues.....but once again, you're trying to lighten things up.
telling people there is no fire cause the flames didn't reach the roof yet.
way to go, someday you'll understand what this is about and it's not your precious "freedom" fighting

[BloodRayne]

Oh, I gotta stop.....I got the mad giggles near the end...... :D

Might I suggest you not post here if this is not an issue for you? It is a thread for people that are having issues with securom. Not a thread for people that aren't having issues with securom.

I wonder who is the saddest here... the one not getting payed for 'sticking up' for a company and trying his utmost best to make people that have serious complaints and issues look bad... Or the ones that have a honest gripe with the way that 2k does business?

The only one that's exaggerating things here is you.

I have issues with the fact that software was installed onto my PC without prior warning. This is illegal in Europe where I live, and that is why I got a full refund for my copy of Bioshock: because it is illegal to install any software onto a computer without prior knowledge or approval of it's user.

Again if you have no issues with that, then why are you posting here? Do you think 2k isn't up to the challenge to defend itself against accusations? Where does this false feeling of having to 'protect' 2k from angry customers come from? Are they paying you to make us look bad? I don't think so...

So don't come here and try to make me or anybody else that has issues with securom look bad just because you don't have these issues yourself. If you want to allow third parties to install software onto your PC without prior approval then be my guest. But try to make me look silly just because you don't feel the same way about the issues as I do. The only one that looks silly then is you.

That's about as mature that I can respond to your immature posting.

[matches81]

That was the gist of my last post.
[...]
Oh, I gotta stop.....I got the mad giggles near the end...... :D

I will make this easy for you and use short sentences:
Security cameras in shops are legal. Bioshock's copy protection is illegal.
Security cameras don't infringe my rights as a customer. I know that they are there. Bioshock's copy protection infringes my rights in many ways.
Security tags are removed as soon as I buy a product. Bioshock's copy protection can't be removed properly.

All of these things have been said many times now in this two threads. They are simple facts.
If you don't want to acknowledge them: Post somewhere else.

[immateriaux]

I will make this easy for you and use short sentences:
Security cameras in shops are legal. Bioshock's copy protection is illegal.
Security cameras don't infringe my rights as a customer. I know that they are there. Bioshock's copy protection infringes my rights in many ways.
Security tags are removed as soon as I buy a product. Bioshock's copy protection can't be removed properly.

All of these things have been said many times now in this two threads. They are simple facts.
If you don't want to acknowledge them: Post somewhere else.

Not sure it's worth the bother - as I mentioned earlier, it's become a matter of "diminishing returns" just reading japester's posts. He makes no attempts now to engage in discussion or argument and obviously no longer really reads anything before launching into the same old replies: eg Loads of detailed answers to his prior post yet he continues on repeating his position regardless, ignoring the valid rebuttals posted. "Mad giggles" is fairly indicative of a troll's perspective too I would have thought?

Tiresome stuff all in all.

http://blogs.pm-magazin.de/PhilosophieBlog/static/PhilosophieBlog/images/Yawn.gif

[koyoti]

That was the gist of my last post.

And rather than assuming 2K is incompetent, evil, or insane (the first of which is true), I suggest that they aren't considering this a priority because they can't be bothered to sort it out.

It's a security measure. Someone laughably compared the DRM complaints to fighting against global warming or terrorism. It's nearer to the truth than any normal person would be comfortable with It's like screaming bloody murder at those ubiquitous security scanners located at the exit to every store. Because they've inconvenienced you... because you once walked through one, and it went off by accident, and an employee asked you to stand there for a moment and produce your receipt so he could check your cart. And that kind of embarassment is inexcusable! (Especially as they ask (sorry, drag) you to a room out of sight of everybody in case they might have made a mistake) How dare they treat you like a criminal! And waste your time like that! Besides, those scanners don't really do anything to stop crime--real criminals just remove the security tags. Plus, people who steal from stores never intended to pay for those items anyway.

Again, all of this has happened to me....and will keep happening....and I'm gonna fight until every store removes them anyway! Because I'm a normal everyday consumer who demands his rights and expects the companies I deal with to respect them too!




Oh, I gotta stop.....I got the mad giggles near the end...... :D
Edited for clarity:D
Until 2K get their act together and sort the activations out, then I'm going to be looking for other solutions to run the game that I have paid them good money for.
It's not the first DRM system to fail dismally and it certainly won't be the last, but until the general game buying public realises how much their rights are being eroded by this, then it's a losing battle. Fortunately it's forums like this that are reaching out and educating them (as it did me) and thank you for that.
P.S Had to edit the above post, it was factually incorrect and a poor excuse for an argument anyway.

[mallix85]

This is probably the gloomiest forum I've ever been to. I don't know why the devs bother stopping to answer you lot ripping on them every other post.

I liked the game. I thought it was great, and it looks like they're working on a patch to fix some of the bugs. Good work imo. Let them handle their ****

Looks like most of you have problems with just securom anyway. Try taking it to their forums?

[BioshockVVins]

This is probably the gloomiest forum I've ever been to. I don't know why the devs bother stopping to answer you lot ripping on them every other post.

I liked the game. I thought it was great, and it looks like they're working on a patch to fix some of the bugs. Good work imo. Let them handle their ****

Looks like most of you have problems with just securom anyway. Try taking it to their forums?


Obviously you haven't read through the 4000+ posts there are about the issues. Either you are to lazy, or you just happen to be another "Japester" or "Mr Bubblez" trying to stir the pot.

If people talking about issues THEY have bothers you, and you don't either:
A.) Have any problem or issues relating to said discussion.
B.) Are not affected or couldn't care less about what is installed on your computer.

Then Why bother posting in a topic which DOESN'T pertain to YOU?
I'm not saying this to be

The problem that seems to be overlooked is the fact that it ISN'T just about SecuRom itself. It is also about the use and implementation of it, BY 2K, without any user notification OR consent to have said SecuRom INSTALLED on the PC that the given user OWNS. Software is installed that is HIDDEN from view during the install of the game, that is ILLEGAL in some countries. The software is installed without asking for permission, or if you will, without GIVING the opportunity, to the OWNER to OPT OUT of the install. Again, illegal in some places.

The same software creates high level encrypted connections to the internet WITHOUT disclosing what is being transmitted/received to the user/owner. Hides itself from firewalls and AV programs. (some even have to be DISABLED to even get the game to install, which includes opening up connections to the internet! :eek: UNACCEPTABLE!)

The above statement brings up ANOTHER fact. Lets not forget about the biggest problem with the game itself. The software that is purchased is NOT COMPLETE. The game is sold in a BROKEN state, in which the only way to remedy that is to connect on-line, not only to "activate", but to also DOWNLOAD the MISSING FILES that COMPLETE the game. Being that this also is NOT disclosed, that again, breaks several laws, and is illegal in some places.

What people are complaining about is the fact that the way 2K has implemented the use of a new iteration of securom, one that is not fully and completely known about, (eg. how it functions, what data is it encrypting, why the use of high level SSL1, SSL2, and TLS1 network security protocols for CD/DVD protection. What is the purpose of such a high level of security for an Activation connection that is only supposedly validating a CD/DVD key, the list goes on and on)

What people are complaining of is the fact that 2k WILL NOT answer these questions, or address the fact they have in fact broken laws in several instances, and in several countries with this products release conditions alone. All of these conditions and "hoops" that the user has to jump through are NOT disclosed anywhere on the packaging or in the EULA. (The PC EULA is garbage, it was viod the second the game hit the shelves due to the aformentioned NON-DISCLOSURES, failures to notify buyers of restrictions, and the failure to notify the buyer they were purchasing an incomplete product.)

So again, before posting a question or statement as to why should they bother to answer, or that we need to take it to a different forum, read the threads that already exist and you will see yourself WHY this is 2K's problem, and not SecuRom's (sony's).

[BioshockVVins]

I'm not saying this to be


Hmmm... that was supposed to read "I'm not saying this to be :insert your own personal description here:

Don't know why it didn't show up. :confused:

[matches81]

This is probably the gloomiest forum I've ever been to. I don't know why the devs bother stopping to answer you lot ripping on them every other post.

I liked the game. I thought it was great, and it looks like they're working on a patch to fix some of the bugs. Good work imo. Let them handle their ****

Looks like most of you have problems with just securom anyway. Try taking it to their forums?

Uhm... sry, no.
a) Read the thread(s).
b) Why should I (we) go to the SecuROM forums? Complaints always go to the one responsible. If you buy a coffee machine and the heating unit doesn't work, your complaints go to the company that sells the whole machine, not the company that manufactured the heating unit. 2K integrated SecuROM in their product and as BioshockWins nicely summarized have broken several laws with their implementation. If it is Sony's fault, then 2K has to settle that with them. Or, better yet: They shouldn't have used that copy protection scheme in the first place. Asking one mere lawyer (or probably about any other sensible person) would have sufficed to know that the measures taken are illegal. 2K probably knew that to begin with and didn't care. So: I'm not going to SecuROM's forums to complain there, I'm taking my complaints where they belong.

[BigDaddyToo]

The Nazi has spoken! Now I will be exciled. :eek:

[Jakester]

What means exciled?
I must admit that it took me a few minutes to determine what prompted the change of heart from BioShockVVins. I must say I'm impressed.

[BioshockVVins]

What means exciled?
I must admit that it took me a few minutes to determine what prompted the change of heart from BioShockVVins. I must say I'm impressed.


Look carefully into the looking glass young grasshopper. :p
All is not what it appears to be. :D

[joleme]

Look carefully into the looking glass young grasshopper. :p
All is not what it appears to be. :D

sad part is, i only noticed after i did a double take as well.

surprised you're not banned for some reason or another. you know you can't offend the defenders of bioshock. :cool:

[Destop]

I thought I didn't need to speak up anymore, but I guess sometimes, you just have to say hello, net zoals Bloodrayne ; ). Anyway.

This is probably the gloomiest forum I've ever been to. I don't know why the devs bother stopping to answer you lot ripping on them every other post.

Hello mallix85. I am sorry this thread is so gloomy but hey, it's just the one thread (okay, the revoke tool thread is, too). All the other threads are peach cobbler with bananas, go check'em out.

Looks like most of you have problems with just securom anyway. Try taking it to their forums?

Other people answered this already, so I'm not going to reiterate.

I liked the game. I thought it was great, and it looks like they're working on a patch to fix some of the bugs. Good work imo. Let them handle their ****

Yes, from what I've gathered from some posters on this forum, Bioshock is a great game. And there's a patch in the works. That's great. Great work. Noone here, and I really mean noone here, is complaining about that. Most of us respect mr. Levine and his team, not just for Bioshock, but also for System Shock.

We have no problems at all with the game developers. In fact, if you had the opportunity read Ken Levine's threads, you'll see that noone was "ripping" on him at all. Just general appreciation and thank yous everywhere. I admit that there has been ripping on the ninja moderators - which is why the forum rules are what they are now. They aren't the game devs, though.

And besides, we don't have any beef with mr. Levine and his team, or Liz and her team actually, because they didn't come up with the copy protection for Bioshock in the first place.

They didn't decide to put SecuRom with limited install credit functionality into the game. Or not to mention it on the box. That decision was made by Technical Director Tim Perry in NY. Probably along with other Directors of such and such, but we can't be sure of that - mr. Perry is the only name we know of, as it was confirmed by mr. Levine in a thread long gone now (it appeared and disappeared at the end of August, if I recall correctly).

Unless you click on

http://www.destructoid.com/bioshock-s-big-daddy-silenced-by-2k-forum-mods-internet-fast-like-cheetah-41076.phtml

to read mr. Levine's opening post of the thread, where mr. Perry is specifically mentioned in the Copy protection part of the post, that is. I'll just copy/paste that particular section for reference here:

-Copy Protection. Copy protection calls are all made in New York by Technical Director Tim Perry. Our job is to implement what he decides. If he's not a member of these forums, I'll suggest to Elizabeth that he gets active in them. The only thing I know about Securom is I've got about 1000 games with some version of it on my shelf. The tech that I know is limited to my experience many years ago as Macintosh computer consultant- in the days before the tubes of the interweb. All that stuff is entirely out of my hands and frankly a bit beyond my understanding.

As you can see, mr. Levine even expressed a desire to suggest to Community Manager 2K Elizabeth that mr. Perry gets active in this forum. Now, if that had actually happened at that time, you would perceive less gloom right now. In fact, you might not even be reading this thread right now, as it would have disappeared long ago =)

Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Technical Director Tim Perry never appeared on this forum to provide feedback about the, shall we say, "unconventional" IP protection scheme choice. We got nothing, instead were herded into a single thread. Left with our own speculations (in favour or against the IP protection scheme), we "raged and stormed" for weeks, asking about the issues, time and again, until we gave up, returned our copies of the game and got our money back.

I alluded to it in my "last" post, but it appears that Community Manager 2K Elizabeth and her staff have been used as a "buffer" between us and the "2K Games Copy Protection Crew", whoever they are in their entirety. Instead of doing the responsible thing and post a statement on the matter, they did what all good politicians do and keep quiet until the average voter (consumer) finds something new to get worked up about. Sure, some protesters might be at the doorsteps for a while, but there's always the police to act as a nice buffer.

Now while that's a nice tactic and all (and understandable to be honest, talking about this kind of issue is far more delicate than talking about technical game decisions such as the widescreen FOV matter), it also has consequences. I'll leave it up to your imagination what those consequences could be.

Take care.

[Jakester]

it also has consequences. I'll leave it up to your imagination what those consequences could be.

Take care.
Do they involve fluffy pink bunny slippers, some skimpy lingerie and lots of personal lubricant?

[Hangmn]

Do they involve fluffy pink bunny slippers, some skimpy lingerie and lots of personal lubricant?
Not exactly...

They involve complaints to the FTC and NY State Attorney General...

[Destop]

Do they involve fluffy pink bunny slippers, some skimpy lingerie and lots of personal lubricant?

Gladly =), but my rationale tells me that adding these items to the more conventional imaginings considered and connecting the dots might be illegal in some parts of the world. So they are best left unspoken and umm, confined to fan fiction and private spheres.

I suck at witty comebacks.

Seriously though, a lot of consequences have already been discussed, both short- and long-term. No reason to go over them again and besides, I wouldn't mind if an unknown consequence - yeah, possibly involving slippers, lingerie and lubricant - hits 2K Games, right out of the blue. After all, it's what 2K Games did to their Bioshock PC customers, and apparently that's an okay thing.

[Jakester]

Man...you do suck at witty comebacks, Destop; you too, O Dangly One.
See, this would be a witty retort:
"What the NY Attorney General and I do in our private time is none of your concern!"
Sheesh! :D

[Hangmn]

Man...you do suck at witty comebacks, Destop; you too, O Dangly One.
See, this would be a witty retort:
"What the NY Attorney General and I do in our private time is none of your concern!"
Sheesh! :D

So are you an official 2K sanctioned troll?

[AkirA74]

So are you an official 2K sanctioned troll?

Yes he is, since he can post as he does, without any mods acting on their own rules. :mad:

[Navilor]

So this is the free speech zone? :)

I've been playing PC games for about 15 years or so now. I've seen a LOT of different forms of copy prevention technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_protection) come and go.

Without exception each and every one has failed.

First it was modifying sectors on the floppy disk. This was solved by sector by sector copying. Distribution was via BBS Warez sites or you could get your own sector level copying program. Later came the internet for wider distribution.

Next came CD-ROMs. Some games were rather small and could just be copied to the hard drive. Other PC games, Duke Nukem 3D for example, came on a CD with a bunch of data on it to fill up the entire CD. Due to size limitations of the hard drives at the time it was virtually impossible to put the entire contents of the CD on the hard drive.

Until CD burners came out.

Now people could make copies of CDs at will. Registration keys were the response by the industry. Things got a bit trickier for the "average joe" to pirate a game. They had to either borrow a friend's key or find a program to generate them.

Online gaming limited key sharing by ensuring that the same key was never used on the same server more than once, however key generators have been fairly successful as they rarely duplicate keys so this doesn't happen very often.

Keyfiles? Just put one in the directory of the program and you are up and running. They litter the internet with their presence.

Dongles? Sorry, a simple patch is usually enough to defeat this.

CSS for DVD copy prevention? Cracked with 7 lines of code (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/03/13/tiny_c_code_bests_sevenline/).

Product activation? Microsoft has done this with Windows XP and Windows Vista. Most people don't have an issue with this as their PCs already come with it installed. Power users and gamers hate having to call Microsoft to get a key to activate their OS if it was felt it was installed too many times.

If you are running Windows, and being as this is a gaming forum I feel it is safe to assume so, how pissed off are you at having to reactivate Windows when you do a system wipe?

Also, with the right program you can bypass activations. Downloading patches can be tricky, however if you cache them locally it isn't a problem.

I'm not terribly pissed right now, however if Microsoft decides to no longer activate an older version of Windows because it is "too old" in their minds then I'll probably have to find a different OS vendor. Support in the form of patches and security updates, however, eventually ends for all products and that is not an issue for me.

I fear that this may happen in the future with 2k Games activation method. I am deeply concerned that while they state that they will remove the activation at some point in the future that it may not happen.

As internet registration seems to be the fad these days it is also a source of much despair on the part of the customer. How many games that require registration before playing have issues with the servers being overloaded on the first day or two after release?

Currently the game I wish to play, Bioshock, is available with SecuROM. They (Bioshock and SecuROM) have already been hacked to pieces and the game (minus SecuROM) is available for download from many locations. Patched.

I do not wish to play any game that includes near-rootkit like functionality and, to my knowledge, does not INFORM a person during installation that it cannot be uninstalled without expert help.

And in the case of Bioshock, which is also available via Steam, not only do you need to register it online but it also comes with SecuROM for no reason I can comprehend.

Isn't that just a bit too much? Requiring not only the CD to be in the computer but to enter an activation code AND limit the use of it? If it is known that any copy prevention scheme can be defeated, sometimes even before the game is officially released, what possible logic can be used to justify not only the additional manpower for the DRM but the support of the same said software? In other words, how much of any pending purchase of mine goes to supporting technology that makes my experience less enjoyable in the long run?

Every copy prevention scheme to date has been proven to be ineffective. Please, please don't waste time and money and resources on something that doesn't work.

So because of all of this I am going to wait until Bioshock no longer has what I feel to be draconian DRM measures. Of course by the time I get around to purchasing it the game will be in the bargain bin and even LESS money will be made by your company.

I am willing to outwait your profit margin. I am willing to boycott any products that cross the line with regards to invasive DRM. In particular I am going to boycott all 2k Games until this DRM is removed.

Are you willing to lose my dollar and the dollars of the many friends and relatives I support? Because until this DRM is removed I am compelled to buy your competitors products.

P.S.

Where is the official statement regarding the potential removal of either the activation scheme or SecuROM on this site? I am unable to quickly locate it.

[immateriaux]

Where is the official statement regarding the potential removal of either the activation scheme or SecuROM on this site? I am unable to quickly locate it.

That statement came from the developer, not the publisher, and was deleted. Officially, the publisher stated that Securom will never be removed. And, from what I gather, we are meant to see the activations thing as just a small inconvenience as even if we use up our "credits", we can get in touch with a support phone number - though that number may not be in your own country of course and require international dialling :rolleyes: - and then wait about two days for someone to allow you to play the game you purchased again. Plus we also have the "hack" they rolled out two months after game release that half works to revoke activations.

In essense:
Isn't that just a bit too much?

Is the crux of the thing - it is too much by far. This is belt and braces restriction that totally changes the territory, that threats the genuine customer as a "hostile", attempts to keep them ignorant of the impositions placed on them and turns the term "purchase" into something more akin to "rent".

Just stop "renting" their games in future - if no one purchases the game then no-one will be interested in pirating it so surely then they will be happiest?

[Jakester]

So are you an official 2K sanctioned troll?
O Dangly One, being that I'm anti-SecuROM, plus the pot-shots I've taken at some mods and admins, I'm don't expect to be getting any Valentine's cards from them.
I'm just throwing in a little levity. Maybe in the future, bulletin board software will include subtitles for the comedically challenged.

[Sblade]

Starforce warns before installing anything:

http://www.star-force.com/support/users/group1.php#13

Securom must learn from them (only this)

[SimpleSimon]

Not exactly...

They involve complaints to the FTC and NY State Attorney General...

So... Has anyone actually bothered to go to the trouble of contacting whichever authorities would be involved in the legalities of the Bioshock distribution scheme? :confused:

[BloodRayne]

So... Has anyone actually bothered to go to the trouble of contacting whichever authorities would be involved in the legalities of the Bioshock distribution scheme? :confused:

Yes I have. I have written a letter of complaint to the dutch equivalant of 'customer authorities'. After being in contact with them and the dutch distributor I have received my money back in full, I did not have to return my copy of Bioshock. That's about as 'high' as you can reach without starting a civil lawsuit, for which you need atleast 100 disgruntled customers, that's something I'm just not willing to go through: That sort of thing takes years.

In Europe it is illegal to install hidden software without prior knowledgeof the user.. With that in mind I have written a letter of discontent to the authorities explaining in detail what kind of software was installed, also pointing them to these threads.

[Hangmn]

So... Has anyone actually bothered to go to the trouble of contacting whichever authorities would be involved in the legalities of the Bioshock distribution scheme? :confused:

I most certainly have.

[Allies Knife]

My biggest beef is with SecuROM’s User Access Service. If I wanted to run code with elevated privileges, I’d actively run it under an administrator account. There’ll be some other competing company offering their own equivalent to SecuROM… then another… and another. We’ll end up with all these extra services, one of which will eventually be used by some malware to drive a coach and horses through the fact we’re using a regular user account.This is currently an issue with SafeDisc. You can read about it in Macrovision update plugs zero-day DRM exploit (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/06/macrovision_drm_update/), on The Register. SecuROM is just as likely to contain security flaws as SafeDisc. This is why we need full disclosure on a game’s case. And, it would be nice if the proliferation of different DRM systems could be limited.

[trexmaster]

Muahahaha

SecuROM is causing problems with Hellgate too. (http://hellgate.incgamers.com/n/4190/excluded-from-hellgate-london-because-of-drm)

[Silus]

Muahahaha

SecuROM is causing problems with Hellgate too. (http://hellgate.incgamers.com/n/4190/excluded-from-hellgate-london-because-of-drm)

Surprise, surprise :)
Does it enforce install limits, in Hellgate too ?

[impar]

Greetings!

Noticed they already have a patch out...

[trexmaster]

Surprise, surprise :)
Does it enforce install limits, in Hellgate too ?

Not that I know of, but having not bought that game (due to the extremities of the rights I'm supposed to grant EA and Flagship if I accept the EULA), I don't have access to the official forums so I'm not very sure.

As a side note, I must say that H:L is getting very bad reviews from french reviewers (yes, I'm french). Average note is 2/5 or 3/10.

Now I'm sure, I won't buy this game either and I won't regret that.

It's funny how these times there is quite a lot of hype around certain games before they're released and once those games are released people (and reviewers sometimes) realize that they're not that great anyway.

[trexmaster]

Greetings!

Noticed they already have a patch out...

It seems that the game was almost unplayable for the vast majority of people and had a lot of graphics/collision/npcs/quests bugs.

[yogibbear]

Hellgate:London looks terrible.

A single player MMO? No thanks.

Subscription fees? Definite No.

Securom? Um... you're kidding right?

Oh and the AI is terrible. For a game where you're meant to have fun slaughtering tens of thousands of demons over and over again, you reckon they'd at least try to make that bit fun. Oh well.

[japester]

It seems that the game was almost unplayable for the vast majority of people and had a lot of graphics/collision/npcs/quests bugs.

LOL!

Actually, out of hundreds of thousands of players, only a relative handful had trouble or wanted to complain about Seucrom/activations. High view/post counts in the complaint threads were due to the same handful of trolls constantly posting the same thing over and over and the rest of us peeking in to look at the circus or newcomers checking it out simply because it was stickied/first thread/large (a self-fulfilling prophecy).

You're posts are funny, trex! :D My favorite is the "When did you first hear about Bioshock" where you said you weren't sure if you bought the game. Sillly, silly man.

[trexmaster]

LOL!

Actually, out of hundreds of thousands of players, only a relative handful had trouble or wanted to complain about Seucrom/activations. High view/post counts in the complaint threads were due to the same handful of trolls constantly posting the same thing over and over and the rest of us peeking in to look at the circus or newcomers checking it out simply because it was stickied/first thread/large (a self-fulfilling prophecy).

You're posts are funny, trex! :D My favorite is the "When did you first hear about Bioshock" where you said you weren't sure if you bought the game. Sillly, silly man.

Yeah, and I answered to that in the corresponding thread.

Now, about that sentence you're quoting, I thought it was obvious I was talking about Hellgate.

And as for only a handful of people having problems with the activation/SecuROM, just wait until SecuROM/2K decide it's not worth it anymore to maintain the activation servers and just unplug them.

[riboflavin]

LOL!

Actually, out of hundreds of thousands of players, only a relative handful had trouble or wanted to complain about Seucrom/activations. High view/post counts in the complaint threads were due to the same handful of trolls constantly posting the same thing over and over and the rest of us peeking in to look at the circus or newcomers checking it out simply because it was stickied/first thread/large (a self-fulfilling prophecy).

You're posts are funny, trex! :D My favorite is the "When did you first hear about Bioshock" where you said you weren't sure if you bought the game. Sillly, silly man.

I "pop in" to see if 2k has responded to the securom concerns or even said they were sorry about the lack of notification that it was being installed. I care about it but don't feel I need to post everyday about it but I would be disappointed if this thread disappeared with no official 2k response.

[redrain85]

I "pop in" to see if 2k has responded to the securom concerns or even said they were sorry about the lack of notification that it was being installed. I care about it but don't feel I need to post everyday about it but I would be disappointed if this thread disappeared with no official 2k response.
Are you kidding? They've had months to apologize. They're never going to. 2K is too arrogant to do that, because they thought they knew what's best for you. That would be admitting they were wrong.

[joleme]

LOL!

Actually, out of hundreds of thousands of players, only a relative handful had trouble or wanted to complain about Seucrom/activations. High view/post counts in the complaint threads were due to the same handful of trolls constantly posting the same thing over and over and the rest of us peeking in to look at the circus or newcomers checking it out simply because it was stickied/first thread/large (a self-fulfilling prophecy).

You're posts are funny, trex! :D My favorite is the "When did you first hear about Bioshock" where you said you weren't sure if you bought the game. Sillly, silly man.

completely off subject, and the post was only to make fun of people that are made at 2k/securerom. You added nothing to the discussion. Good to see the rules being applied about trolling and such..

[joleme]

sigh... *mad* i hate no edit button. Seriously, if you don't care about the securerom issue, DON'T POST IN HERE. this is for people that want answers or maybe reasons. If you don't want either, and you post in here, you are just trying to get a rise out of people or start an argument.

[immateriaux]

Actually, out of hundreds of thousands of players, only a relative handful had trouble or wanted to complain about Seucrom/activations. High view/post counts in the complaint threads were due to the same handful of trolls constantly posting the same thing over and over and the rest of us peeking in to look at the circus or newcomers checking it out simply because it was stickied/first thread/large (a self-fulfilling prophecy).


As opposed to this forum where just the one troll, you, posts the same unsubstantiated nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ... seem to remember having to use this exact same smiley for the last one of your posts too .

[Destop]

As opposed to this forum where just the one troll, you, posts the same unsubstantiated nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ... seem to remember having to use this exact same smiley for the last one of your posts too .

Is japester still at it?

User CP > Buddy/Ignore Lists > "Ignore List" Add New User to List [japester] > Save List "Done"

Don't let this thread get closed because several people "respond" to the same, well, let's call them ramblings of a single person time and again. Wouldn't want to see a repeat of the Mr.Bubblez scenario - forum rules have already been adjusted once already.

Incidentally, I spent my 50 Bioshock Euros on The Witcher.

(offtopic, shameless plugging)
If you're 18+ and like mature, RPG storytelling and making choices in those subtle grey shades rather than the traditional black and white, go get this (and don't forget to update to patch 1.1a)! I was truly, pleasantly surprised and impressed by this title, the odd script discontinuity aside. Girl gamers beware, though - you play as Geralt and Geralt only, and Geralt really likes the ladies. And, according to CDProjekt, Geralt likes lots and lots of them. Likings which must be rewarded with "collectibles", shall we say.

... or just wait a little longer for Mass Effect and/or Crysis. Crysis demo = Blow away.
(end offtopic)

[japester]

Now, about that sentence you're quoting, I thought it was obvious I was talking about Hellgate.

Sorry, trex. I didn't see any reference to Hellgate in your post. Since others have recently been posting things like "Bioshock doesn't work on most PC's", I thought this was yet another gross exaggeration and required a response.

I haven't looked at Hellgate, so if its as buggy as you say, then you have my apologies. That was my bad. :)

Hi, Joleme. Welcome to the forum! And thank for your efforts at educating me about what the forum rules are. :)

I do, in fact, care about the SecuROM issue and would like to see everybody get a satisfactory solution to their various gripes in time. But to do that, we need to avoid making wild, emotional, baseless statements that detract from the important issues. As I just wrote to trex, I've seen several posts almost identical to his that were referring to BioShock rather than Hellgate. And people who are mad at 2K for various reasons won't bother correcting such statements, even if they know they are false, because anything that makes 2K look bad is okay with them. So, for the sake of new lurkers, I try to point out certain exaggerations in an effort to clear the air.

I hope that clears things up for you and look forward to your contributions to this forum in the future!

[yogibbear]

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/49823

More Hellgate Hell.

Oooo i'm full of terrible jokes... :cool:

[redrain85]

I came across this yesterday, and thought it was funny enough to share.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1540/6522rmdrmofficemeetingsut1.gif
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9581

Remember: "Why should your brother play for free?" ;)

[immateriaux]

Sorry, trex. I didn't see any reference to Hellgate in your post. Since others have recently been posting things like "Bioshock doesn't work on most PC's", I thought this was yet another gross exaggeration and required a response.

Why don't you try actually reading what is in posts then for a change before rushing off ranting your repetitive crap then as a "response"? :rolleyes:

User CP > Buddy/Ignore Lists > "Ignore List" Add New User to List [japester] > Save List "Done"

[japester]

Why don't you try actually reading what is in posts then for a change before rushing off ranting your repetitive crap then as a "response"? :rolleyes:

What an ironic statement....since his post didn't mention Hellgate (as I stated in my post). :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[jd10013]

I still don't see what all the fuss is about. sure, its putting stuff on your computer without your knowing and can't be removed. But, I'm pretty sure that's nothing new. I'm betting there's a lot of crap on my computer that I don't know about and probably can't be removed either. I usually do a complete reinstall of my HD every year or two for that reason. From my own personal experience, and what I've looked up on the net, this Securom stuff doesn't seem to do any harm, and is just there to cut back on the rampant piracy and sharring that goes on. Guess I must be missing something. ignorance is bliss I suppose.

[yogibbear]

ignorance is bliss I suppose.

I was i was ignorant too... :cool:

[impar]

Greetings!I'm betting there's a lot of crap on my computer that I don't know about ...Thats why I built it and installed every single software. Its called a Personal Computer.