Building Weapons Removed Feature?

[Metafile]

Over on Gamespot, it appears that the building your own weapons feature has been removed because the marketing demographic research they did showed that they could sell more product if they dumbed-down the game in order to please people with single digit IQ's!!!

[Nyghtfall]

Link, please. Otherwise, I don't believe you.

[CitrusFreak12]

Right.... That sounds... official. ::eyeroll::

[BioShockWins]

err... I think he's joking

[CitrusFreak12]

I assumed so as well, it's just that it was completely non sequitur... "Apropos of nothing, here is something I made up about the game having a feature removed for silly reasons."

It also doesn't help that I refuse to read that gamespot article until someone copies and pastes it without the major spoilers :P

[Rapture_Survivalist]

A bunch of bull. But for all the people that don't want to read the GS article, it really dosn't have major, MAJOR spoilers, but it's your call.

[CitrusFreak12]

Thanks for the tip, R_S. I gave it a read and yeah, not that bad after all.

[poopypooperson]

Eh, actually, he's right, to a certain extent. You can't build your own weapons purely out of spare parts, it was in a retrospective interview posted on GameTrailers, I think, looking at the earlier incarnations of the game. I think some of you think you can't modify your weapons in the game, yes you can, you just can't build entirely new weapons from parts you find. I don't really know how I would react if this feature was included in the game, either.

[redrain85]

Yeah, Metafile is sort-of right. You were supposed to be able to build weapons completely from scratch, out of parts you found in the world. But it sounds like now you find weapons that are already built, and you can only modify them to make improvements.

[CitrusFreak12]

From what I remember, it's been like that for a long time now... the only thing that looks like it was built completely from scratch (as opposed to being a pre-existing weapon that you added on to) is the rocket/grenade launcher (y'know, the one with the paint bucket in the middle of it?).

[irrationallevine]

There is a weapon modding system in the game just like there always was. We just changed how the weapons looked because the more amateur cobbled together thing was just looking dorky...they still look hand modified, but by somebody who knows what they're doing. In the current press tour, i talk in some detail about weapon mods...

[BioShockWins]

There is a weapon modding system in the game just like there always was. We just changed how the weapons looked because the more amateur cobbled together thing was just looking dorky...they still look hand modified, but by somebody who knows what they're doing. In the current press tour, i talk in some detail about weapon mods...

yeah, in comparison of what I saw of the old ones, what you guys have now is a lot better!

[CitrusFreak12]

There is a weapon modding system in the game just like there always was. We just changed how the weapons looked because the more amateur cobbled together thing was just looking dorky...they still look hand modified, but by somebody who knows what they're doing. In the current press tour, i talk in some detail about weapon mods...
Press tour?

Are there screenshots of the old weapon modding system, or were those not released to the public? And is the grenade launcher an example of the current weapon modding system?

[Raveness]

There is a weapon modding system in the game just like there always was. We just changed how the weapons looked because the more amateur cobbled together thing was just looking dorky...they still look hand modified, but by somebody who knows what they're doing. In the current press tour, i talk in some detail about weapon mods...

The way I understand it is that it falls within the same lines of SS2, where we could mod existing weapon models we acquired in the game world, but couldn't assemble a weapon together from parts. SS2 also allowed us to research a foreign object, and then use it as a weapon (exotic), but players pretty much knew it was a weapon to begin with.

It's too bad that an extra level of complexity is missing. I would have liked to have purchased or found a diagram that outlines a way to build an enhanced small-arm, rifle or chem/bio weapon where you need to find the parts scattered throughout the decks, then research them & piece them together in a mad-scientists lab.

[Da Bubs]

It's too bad that an extra level of complexity is missing. I would have liked to have purchased or found a diagram that outlines a way to build an enhanced small-arm, rifle or chem/bio weapon where you need to find the parts scattered throughout the decks, then research them & piece them together in a mad-scientists lab.

the problem I see with that is that the P.C. isnt from rapture, he is not nessarily some sort of genius. firearms are complex, even with a diagram and all the right parts a fair amount of people still wouldnt be able to make one, not to mention making one from things that are lying around. most people's weapon making ability would allow them to put doorknobs in a sack or duct taping a knife to a pipe and not much more.

[Raveness]

the problem I see with that is that the P.C. isnt from rapture, he is not nessarily some sort of genius. firearms are complex, even with a diagram and all the right parts a fair amount of people still wouldnt be able to make one, not to mention making one from things that are lying around. most people's weapon making ability would allow them to put doorknobs in a sack or duct taping a knife to a pipe and not much more.

I don't buy that line of reasoning. Not being from Rapture does not negate one's ingenuity, and we already know the game is asking the player character to go above and beyond what the average man of the time can accomplish, so it feels more like an arbitrary barrier if narratively there is a decision just how "smart" Jack can be with his tools & resources.

I get the feeling Jacks backstory will reveal more than just an ordinary guy stuck in extraordinary circumstances; possibly he's a trained agent or was a prospective "enlightened cultist" himself. Either way I don't agree in thinking that he can heavily modify weapons, but he can't assemble them from a diagram.

[Mr.Bubblez]

Regardless of his "ingenuity", there is no way that a person would be able to build a gun from spare parts they found on the ground. It just wouldnt work because the mechanical specifications of a firearm are too tight. If you're off by 1mm BAM it blows up in your face. BUT, the mod system makes sense within the game and it should add some fun variety, so I dont have a problem with it.

[Raveness]

Regardless of his "ingenuity", there is no way that a person would be able to build a gun from spare parts they found on the ground. It just wouldnt work because the mechanical specifications of a firearm are too tight. If you're off by 1mm BAM it blows up in your face. BUT, the mod system makes sense within the game and it should add some fun variety, so I dont have a problem with it.

If that's the case, then why was it originally planned and held for a long time in development, removed more because of marketing and the feeling of a need to dumb-down?

Irrational is quite capable of giving a narrative explanation for within the Rapture setting that allows for smart people to assemble weapons in that context.

We're not talking about weapons that can be directly equated to a modern or 1950's set of weapons, we're talking about a plethora of fictional constructs inspired by weapons of the time, that may have been designed by Rapture engineers to be easier to assemble, break-down, upgrade, all most likely using a standard blueprint of design language that can avoid any problems of the specifications being "too tight". Heck we know they have been designed that way to a degree, as we can still heavily modify the weapons in the game using parts.

[Da Bubs]

I don't buy that line of reasoning. Not being from Rapture does not negate one's ingenuity

granted, hence why I said not nessicarily a genius

Either way I don't agree in thinking that he can heavily modify weapons, but he can't assemble them from a diagram.

I think you are underestimating how complex guns can get. the problem with that is for a complete gun we are talking upwards of 30 parts were with a mod were talking way fewer. it says in my hunters saftey booklet not to even try to clean the inner workings of a gun, your supposed to let a gunsmith do it. although hunters saftey is so easy its a joke

If that's the case, then why was it originally planned and held for a long time in development, removed more because of marketing and the feeling of a need to dumb-down?

my guess is that it was somewhat dumbed down to begin with, you cant really expect the player to go get 30 parts in order to make a shotgun. weather that is it or not, I am sure that there was a good reason for removing that feature


We're not talking about weapons that can be directly equated to a modern or 1950's set of weapons, we're talking about a plethora of fictional constructs inspired by weapons of the time, that may have been designed by Rapture engineers to be easier to assemble, break-down, upgrade, all most likely using a standard blueprint of design language that can avoid any problems of the specifications being "too tight". Heck we know they have been designed that way to a degree, as we can still heavily modify the weapons in the game using parts.

the first pump-action shotgun was patented in 1893, rapture was founded in the 1940s. so the pump-action shotgun had be being refined for 47 years at that point, furthermore there hasnt been any really radical changes in the design of the pump-action shotgun from 1893 and now. you say that the people in rapture managed to redesign the pump-action shotgun in a manner that allow it to be cobbled together out of parts that were laying around, if a machine shop is involved its possible, but not out of random parts.

[Mr.Bubblez]

If that's the case, then why was it originally planned and held for a long time in development, removed more because of marketing and the feeling of a need to dumb-down?

Irrational is quite capable of giving a narrative explanation for within the Rapture setting that allows for smart people to assemble weapons in that context.


What I'm telling you is, as a gamer, I would prefer a mod system as opposed to a "build from scratch" system. Overall I think it was a good decision on the part of IG because building weapons from scratch wouldnt add a whole lot to the game imho. The mod system is the best approach because it adds variety while at the same time maintaining a reasonable level of plausibility and consistency.

Between the different plasmids, telekinesis, trap setting and modified weapons, there is more than enough variety in the game. There is no need to confuse people with an esoteric "find crap on the ground and turn that crap into a dorky looking gun" system. All that would do is turn away mainstream FPS gamers while adding almost nothing to the game. I think IG clearly made the right call.

[Raveness]

Da Bubs, you can throw all the real world equivalences you can think of at it, but that doesn't provide a good enough explanation as to why the player can only go halfway in his construction/deconstruction of weapon systems. It just feels like an arbitrary point where the players resourcefulness is just halted. Granted I honestly don't really care in the end, but this forum aint getting any better thoughtful discussion :D

I'm not underestimating how complex guns are, but rather how the complexity of them (from whatever real world counterparts you assume) has been contextually reduced. Bioshock imparts that they allow the player much greater freedom to experiment and construct/deconstruct weapons, probably involving less than 30 parts as there could easily be an implementation of larger standard parts across the board.

[Raveness]

What I'm telling you is, as a gamer, I would prefer a mod system as opposed to a "build from scratch" system. Overall I think it was a good decision on the part of IG because building weapons from scratch wouldnt add a whole lot to the game imho. The mod system is the best approach because it adds variety while at the same time maintaining a reasonable level of plausibility and consistency.

Between the different plasmids, telekinesis, trap setting and modified weapons, there is more than enough variety in the game. There is no need to confuse people with an esoteric "find crap on the ground and turn that crap into a dorky looking gun" system. All that would do is turn away mainstream FPS gamers while adding almost nothing to the game. I think IG clearly made the right call.

That's not the direction of the topic I'm discussing. How the functionality fits into the game's overall experience is something game balancers and testers can decide whether it is fun or not, and they've made the choice already. We have to trust the creators wisdom anyways, but if there was some definitive weapon assembly from scratch functionality, I would have like to have seen it. It's a purely ignorable section of a game anyways, you can always use the provided weapons and stick to modding.

[Da Bubs]

Da Bubs, you can throw all the real world equivalences you can think of at it, but that doesn't provide a good enough explanation as to why the player can only go halfway in his construction/deconstruction of weapon systems.

good point

there could easily be an implementation of larger standard parts across the board.

true, your completely right about the plasuabilty part of it.

however, its not a feature that is going to be frequently used, how many times are you going to build a pistol in the game? Im going to guess just once. futhermore, instead of looking the parts you need to make a pistol, arnt you better off just looking for a pistol?

[Whats the matter, Frank?]

That's not the direction of the topic I'm discussing. How the functionality fits into the game's overall experience is something game balancers and testers can decide whether it is fun or not, and they've made the choice already. We have to trust the creators wisdom anyways, but if there was some definitive weapon assembly from scratch functionality, I would have like to have seen it. It's a purely ignorable section of a game anyways, you can always use the provided weapons and stick to modding.

I understand why they'd do away from making ALL weapons created, but it's regrettable you can't at least one or two crazy ones completely from scratch. Fingers crossed for in a sequel.

[Raveness]

I understand why they'd do away from making ALL weapons created, but it's regrettable you can't at least one or two crazy ones completely from scratch. Fingers crossed for in a sequel.

however, its not a feature that is going to be frequently used, how many times are you going to build a pistol in the game? Im going to guess just once. futhermore, instead of looking the parts you need to make a pistol, arnt you better off just looking for a pistol?

Yeah if they woulda done it, it should only be done to get some uber weapons, just like in SS2 when you had to research the Viral Proliferator and the Worm Launcher. But that goes without saying :)

[Da Bubs]

Yeah if they woulda done it, it should only be done to get some uber weapons, just like in SS2 when you had to research the Viral Proliferator and the Worm Launcher. But that goes without saying :)

I dont recall useing either of those weapons on any of my SS2 playthroughs.

[Raveness]

I dont recall useing either of those weapons on any of my SS2 playthroughs.

Bad grammar. I meant you had to do research with chemicals to gain access to using them, not just upgrade your exotic weapons level. I think the Crystal Shard was in that group as well.

[Vanrick]

what? :confused:

[Da Bubs]

Bad grammar. I meant you had to do research with chemicals to gain access to using them, not just upgrade your exotic weapons level. I think the Crystal Shard was in that group as well.

no, I understood you, I just never used either of those.

[gains]

Not to be contrary to anyone, but the player isn't really cobbling together anything, anyway. The U-Invent is a little machine shop, so all the player really needs to do is ask for a product, follow a recipe and dump the necessary parts into the machine.

Science does the rest!

[Vanrick]

What do you guys mean about weapons made by oneself!?

Isn't there already weapons in the game that can be customized?

Can you like stick something togethe and make it a weapon? Like with things you find lying around?

[FreshLaundryX]

This allows frat boys to just grab a shotgun and go and it allows more technical gamers to figure out how to build stuff and modify the weapon to be more effective.

It is a win-win and in my opinion was a very wise decision by the developers.

[DrowningHeroes]

In order for the weapon creation system to have any value, it would have to be robust enough to actually offer variety. If there are only a few things that can be made, by putting certain things in order, then what would be the point. In order to create something really satisfying, i would have to be done on a grand scale, or else it would amount to little more than just another puzzle. This was probably realized, and then taken away due to lack of time.

[DrowningHeroes]

What I am really trying to say is that the game system cannot allow this to be like legos, where anything can be made. If there were 100 different parts laying around, and only 10 ways they would possibly go together, then you are not creating anything unique, just figureing out what they wanted you to do. That is why i mod system makes more sense. - DA