Stealth

[Flynn Taggart]

One of the tings that a big draw for me, as far as immersion goes is stealth. Alot of first person games don't have it at all, but considering how immersive and choice-oriented BioShock is supposed to be, will I see alot of stealth action? What if I'm low on ammo and adam and need to loot this one area that just so happens to have alot of shadows.

As far as horror goes, I thought that Manhunt had alot of shock value in its gore factor, but I only really played it for the stealth system. I'd like to see more of that, especially with games that are supposed to be in the 'horror' genre.

[ffanxii4ever]

I wouldn't expect stealth along the lines of the original Splinter Cell or anything like that, but it isn't going to be all run and gun ala Halo. It will probably be a medium, though there is going to be some focus on stealth considering one of the released passive plasmids is called Chameleon Blood, and when you stand still, you slowly fade from sight, so I would expect there to be a fair amount of stealth in it if you like to play stealth, but if you don't like stealth, you probably don't have to do it at all, or a very minimal amount

[jackinthebox]

we didn't see/hear anything about stealth in BioShock yet and i personally think it's not going to be very sophisticated if it will be implemented... BX is more about slow walking and thinking what to do next, but stealth doesn't seem to play any role at all...

[Da Bubs]

we didn't see/hear anything about stealth in BioShock yet and i personally think it's not going to be very sophisticated if it will be implemented... BX is more about slow walking and thinking what to do next, but stealth doesn't seem to play any role at all...

I would have to mostly agree with that assesment, exept for that last bit. Will stealth be a viable option? probably, but it wont be as sophisticated as some of the games out there, and seeing as how this game is about choices it probably wont be nessicary

[Adabiviak]

In an environment where the idea is to give the player as many different options for achieving various goals like this, a stealth option seems like a good idea to me. Until the plasmid mentioned above, I wasn't aware of an option like this in the game though.

By the way, how do chameleons rank as the stereotypical camouflage critter? I've never seen a chameleon blend into a background as well as say an octopus or flounder.

[D'Sparil]

Because people love to stereotype, the chameleon got slapped with that label. However... gotta say they didn't get it as bad as some other animals.

As for scientific answers...


Chameleons have specialized cells, collectively called chromatophores, that lie in layers under their transparent outer skin. The cells in the upper layer, called xanthophores and erythrophores, contain yellow and red pigments respectively. Below these is another layer of cells called iridophores or guanophores, and they contain the colorless crystalline substance guanine. These reflect, among others, the blue part of incident light. If the upper layer of chromatophores appears mainly yellow, the reflected light becomes green (blue plus yellow). A layer of dark melanin containing melanophores is situated even deeper under the reflective iridophores. The melanophores influence the 'lightness' of the reflected light. All these different pigment cells can rapidly relocate their pigments, thereby influencing the color of the chameleon.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon#Change_of_color

I just think they have the widest array of color changing capabilties, whereas an octopus may be better hidden, but against limited setting or backgrounds. I messed with some chameleons and they can sometimes get pretty funky.

[Raveness]

Stealth definitely should be an option. Even if no plasmids are available that enhance it, the least Irrational could program is to make slower/crouched footsteps blocked by physical objects not alert enemies to the players presence, plus the possibility of turning off lights to confuse non-vision enhanced enemies.

I'd like to see a plasmid that reflects the players surroundings, and see the effect of said plasmid on the hands. Imagine iridescent blue hands with art-deco wainscotting.

[Newbeing]

It seemed like in the Hunting the Big Daddy video that staying silent in a dark area kept you from being noticed by the splicer.

[Da Bubs]

I was thinking and I realized that stealth in this game might have some problems from being a first person shooter, from what I've seen FPSs dont really lend themselves to stealth as well as say third person games, mainly because in an FPS you cant see what is around corners without getting seen yourself. so I was thinking, what about something like a crabeye plasmid that lets you look around corners, or a mirror-on-a-stick plasmid? that would solve that problem.

edit:this would be a good time to point out that not all solutions should be plasmid based, for example an actual mirror-on-a-stick would work as well as a mirror-on-a-stick plasmid. I think as gamers we are starting to lose sight of the fact that plasmids are only a part of the game and not the entire game. I sure hope that the devs arnt losing sight of that.

[Raveness]

I don't think so. First person perspective games can do stealth perfectly fine, the ability to see around corners is a bit of a cheat anyways. Thief, Far Cry, Butcher Bay, NOLF, RTCW, Deus Ex, XIII, DCotE, VTMB, are some examples, all handled stealth easily.

What I don't wish to see is any objectives based around sneaking by a group of enemies, and if you're seen, mission failure. That is among the most annoying gimmicks in gaming.

[Tellurian]

What I don't wish to see is any objectives based around sneaking by a group of enemies, and if you're seen, mission failure. That is among the most annoying gimmicks in gaming.

Especially when it comes to strangely coded perception routines of the enemy AI. (Far Cry, I'm looking at you...)

[Da Bubs]

I don't think so. First person perspective games can do stealth perfectly fine, the ability to see around corners is a bit of a cheat anyways. Thief, Far Cry, Butcher Bay, NOLF, RTCW, Deus Ex, XIII, DCotE, VTMB, are some examples, all handled stealth easily.

Most of those games I never played, I guess my arguement comes manly from my being traumatized by SOFII. I still think that the crabeye plasmid is a cool and really gross idea.

[Hatesink]

One of the tings that a big draw for me, as far as immersion goes is stealth. Alot of first person games don't have it at all, but considering how immersive and choice-oriented BioShock is supposed to be, will I see alot of stealth action?Personally I really hope so. Stealth really adds a lot, even if it only means the A.I. has to be more fully developed, since it adds so much to the gameplay. I think most gamers are already sick of scripted bots jumping out already firing at you (using cover in HL2 was like running from bubble to bubble on Dark Aether).

If I wanted to run and gun, I'd probably pick a franchise like Hitman, since the A.I. is so much more fully rounded it enables a whole range of situations and approaches, rather than just run, point, shoot.

SS2 could really have benefited from some kind of stealth option in the mall level.

As far as horror goes, I thought that Manhunt had alot of shock value in its gore factor, but I only really played it for the stealth system. I'd like to see more of that, especially with games that are supposed to be in the 'horror' genre.

I didn't really like Manhunt too much. Not enough variety in the kills (since that seemed to be the game's USP I kind of expected more). It wasn't enough to sustain my interest in the game. It was kind of just the same thing over and over: you're totally invisible in the shadows, so stand in the shadows and bang on the wall so that the guy walks up and stands directly in front of you for a few seconds before he turns and walks away, at which point you pursue and execute a stealth kill. And that was basically it, over and over again, and even that was screwed up, since you had to wait an extra beat once getting within range or you'd screw up the kill.

It had the 'crouch & creep' dynamic also, which isn't great. Games should let you stealth kill without you having to crouch & creep.

Stealth definitely should be an option. Even if no plasmids are available that enhance it, the least Irrational could program is to make slower/crouched footsteps blocked by physical objects not alert enemies to the players presence, plus the possibility of turning off lights to confuse non-vision enhanced enemies.Turning of lights or affecting the environment in ways that influence AI behavior is (at least in my opinion) something that's underused and under-explored. And yes, footsteps should definitely be blocked by physical objects. It's so annoying when your footsteps pass through concrete and alert a guard. They should at least be blocked, if not be designed to echo.

Another thing that really destroys immersion is hearing A.I.s in the next room or on the floor below or above, as if they're in the same room as you. It's an Immediate mood-killer. Instantly destroys immersion.

By the way, how do chameleons rank as the stereotypical camouflage critter? I've never seen a chameleon blend into a background as well as say an octopus or flounder.Chameleons change colour as an emotional response, not for camouflage, but if you were marketing something like that in Rapture I guess you probably would use a Chameleon.

[Pinky_Powers]

I don't think so. First person perspective games can do stealth perfectly fine, the ability to see around corners is a bit of a cheat anyways. Thief, Far Cry, Butcher Bay, NOLF, RTCW, Deus Ex, XIII, DCotE, VTMB, are some examples, all handled stealth easily.

What I don't wish to see is any objectives based around sneaking by a group of enemies, and if you're seen, mission failure. That is among the most annoying gimmicks in gaming.

Many of these games were exactly what I was going to bring up in the defense of stealth too. Especially Butcher's Bay and Thief.

Stealth has always been one of those qualities that, when implemented properly, can rise the gameplay quite a few notches.

[Flynn Taggart]

What I don't wish to see is any objectives based around sneaking by a group of enemies, and if you're seen, mission failure. That is among the most annoying gimmicks in gaming.

I agree totally. Plus, that would go against the very nature of choice-based nonlinear gaming. Ken Levine said in a interview once that the was no such thing as a "free lunch" in Bioshock. If you stealth plan fails then deal with it and get a new plan quickly or die. Being stealthy should always be risky, just like everything else in an environment that's "constantly starving for resources."

[Flynn Taggart]

I didn't really like Manhunt too much. Not enough variety in the kills (since that seemed to be the game's USP I kind of expected more). It wasn't enough to sustain my interest in the game. It was kind of just the same thing over and over[...].


I agree totally. But for that first 3 hrs of gameplay, I was definetely digging the stealth system.

[Silent Film]

I much prefer stealth to be handled in first-person, particularly because you then have to rely more on your own skill and judgement to be successful.

It's one of the reasons I rank Thief so highly. If you're in a corridor and you hear footsteps around a corner up ahead, you have to rely on your own judgment and gameplay experience to decide whether those footsteps are approaching, or disappearing, and whether it is worth the risk being seen to lean around and take a peek. That's only a minor example from a stealth-focused game, but I find that to be a much more engaging experience and something which is largely destroyed when given the ability to 'see' around corners in third-person.

[Hatesink]

I agree totally. But for that first 3 hrs of gameplay, I was definetely digging the stealth system.Absolutely— me too, but after the first few hours, the game just wasn't deep enough to hold my attention. I found it to be way too gimmicky— all shock-value and no substance, but apparently Manhunt 2 is about due for release on the PS2: http://uk.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt2/index.html?q=manhunt so lets hope the success of the original has inspired them to make more of the sequal.

To be honest, I've not yet played a Rockstar game I like (I'm yet to play bully). At one point they were developing a noir action-adventure that showed some promise, but I'm not sure if it's still in production.

[Hatesink]

"You can also use decoys to distract enemies and normal things such as shadows and dark areas to avoid enemies" —Ken Levine in 360zine

wicked :)

[somecut8]

I wouldn't expect stealth along the lines of the original Splinter Cell or anything like that, but it isn't going to be all run and gun ala Halo. It will probably be a medium, though there is going to be some focus on stealth considering one of the released passive plasmids is called Chameleon Blood, and when you stand still, you slowly fade from sight, so I would expect there to be a fair amount of stealth in it if you like to play stealth, but if you don't like stealth, you probably don't have to do it at all, or a very minimal amount

It would kinda be nice if the stealth was as realistic as Splinter Cell, but just not required. Like in Splinter Cell, you are almost required to sneak around and not alert the opponent. What I would like to see is when I hide in the shadows in Bioshock, the opponent will not notice me. I like this because for example in Rainbow Six Vegas, whenever I hide in the shadows in co-op elimination, the a.i. still spots me in places where i should not be seen. I hope this would not occur in Bioshock because there is a scarcity of resources, thus causing the user to have a need to sneak around and gather materials.

Basically, it would be nice if the stealth aspect in Bioshock is almost as realistic as Splinter Cell, but hiding is not a requirement. That ways if you were to run away, you could actually turn the corner and hide in the shadows. Many games when you try to run away and hide in a really dark area, the A.I. still somehow sees you, making the only way to escape to be running as far away as possible.

[Flynn Taggart]

"You can also use decoys to distract enemies and normal things such as shadows and dark areas to avoid enemies" —Ken Levine in 360zine

wicked :)

Thank YOU! :D

Well, that answers my question. And, no, I wouldn't expect to see anything near Splinter Cell. That sounds too complicated for what they've already built, but it would be nice. :rolleyes:

[Irrational_Alexx]

Stealth is a minor aspect of BioShock, but definitely present. There are no enforced "stealth missions"; you only sneak if you decide you want to. There are Plasmids that can help a stealth-fan play that way if they like, though not to the extent of a game like Splinter Cell or Thief, which have stealth as a primary focus. For BioShock, Stealth is one of the tools in the toolbox; like any other tool, it's great for some situations, adaptable to many more if you're clever, but not something that will help you all the time.

Alexx Kay, Designer, Irrational Games

[Irrational-Alingis]

Interestingly, I think Irrational probably has a history where we have hashed out the mechanics of stealth through so many projects (starting with everyone who came out of the Looking Glass/"Thief" scene, and being reinforced with SSII and SWAT) that including it is sort of second nature to our team.

As such, stealth is something that you probably won't notice; it simply exists as part of the environment you will encounter. What we try to do is make reality match your intuitive expectations.

At the end of the day, you can choose to utilize stealth or not - the game will be exciting and challenging either way.

-Dan Kaplan
Programmer
Irrational Games

[vrap]

Excellent.

[nmrahde]

This kind of relates to stealth...

...but will the different types of creatures have different levels of awareness?

IE Say the security helibots only have vision but not sound awareness, or some creepy guy with no eyes that perks up when I make a sound tripping over a can trying to get past him, etc.

One of the biggest disappointments about sneaking everywhere in Oblivion came when creatures that should be able to see me (anything with the ability to detect life like the vampires) couldn't.

Mebbe even something with T-Rex vision. I can imagine beads of sweat coming down as I stay still to avoid Creature A who can't see me if I'm standing still while I hear a Creature B who can see me coming down that hallway...

[intercision]

As such, stealth is something that you probably won't notice; it simply exists as part of the environment you will encounter.

I think this is really important. After playing STALKER and having a Bandit spot my foot sticking out from behind a tree from 70m away, in the dark, while I was being prefectly still :rolleyes: ... I think LACK of stealth stands out more than anything.

[ckline]

I think this is really important. After playing STALKER and having a Bandit spot my foot sticking out from behind a tree from 70m away, in the dark, while I was being prefectly still :rolleyes: ... I think LACK of stealth stands out more than anything.

This is actually one of the many problems we thought a lot about when implementing the stealth-related features of Bioshock (such as being less visible in shadows). We wanted to make sure that either you're hidden or you're not, and put in a lot of work to try and ensure that there's never a situation where it looks to you like you're hidden, but to "the game" you're really not -- because that's worse than not having any stealth at all.

-Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock

[intercision]

We wanted to make sure that either you're hidden or you're not, and put in a lot of work to try and ensure that there's never a situation where it looks to you like you're hidden, but to "the game" you're really not -- because that's worse than not having any stealth at all.

I agree with that last statement 100%. It's so great that you guys seem so focused on the "player experience" and how the game dynamics effect this on every level.

[Jeff]

You know, I so dislike alot of the "stealth" aspects in recent video games that I've been avoided reading this thread. I just decided now to read through and man oh man, I'm so happy with everything that has been said here.

-no forced stealth
-if you should be hidden, you're hidden

Perfect.

I'm still interested to know if and how the range of mob awareness will differ. I think it might become a quintessential bioshock moment to tip-toe around an eyeless splicer, bump into a table or wall and have him fly around and come straight at your position.

[Ectoplasm]

Looking around corners has been handled admirably in games like Thief and NOLF - and others. There are sideways lean commands that allow you to sneak a peek around the corner without exposing yourself. Thief also has lean forward so you can look directly down from a ledge as well. In stealth games, detection by an enemy depends on many factors: visible size, distance, height from ground, lighting conditions, enemy alert level, exposure time, etc. So if you crouch down and quickly peek around the corner from a dimly lit area, most enemies will never notice you.
Thief 2 also had a remote spy camera that could be used to monitor a particular spot.

[intercision]

Looking around corners has been handled admirably in games like Thief and NOLF - and others.

Thief is generally regarded to be the birth of stealth as a genre, and since it's release many games have adopted stealth as a major gameplay element, to the extent that I think in modern gaming, stealth is something that FPS players, in general, expect to be part of their "toolkit".

BioShock isn't a stealth-centric game, so while it would be cool, I don't think it's essential to include advanced stealth gameplay (leaning, crouching, wall-hugging, climbing, etc). What is important though, is to meet the modern gamer's general expectations regarding stealth, ie. I'm harder to see in shadow, I'm louder when I run, etc.

[Raveness]

BioShock isn't a stealth-centric game, so while it would be cool, I don't think it's essential to include advanced stealth gameplay (leaning, crouching, wall-hugging, climbing, etc). What is important though, is to meet the modern gamer's general expectations regarding stealth, ie. I'm harder to see in shadow, I'm louder when I run, etc.

I don't consider leaning and crouching motions to be centered on stealth. I use the former to see what is ahead of me, the latter to reduce my size providing less of a target to those shooting at me.

Irrational simply needs to include AI that has a proper visual spectrum tied to stages of alertness, and not go lazy with a simple line-of-sight AI. This isn't asking much for today's games.

We also have the Chameleon plasmid which should reduce (not completely eliminate) the players visibility.

[intercision]

This isn't asking much for today's games.

You'd think, but S.T.A.L.K.E.R. got it very wrong.

[ckline]

Irrational simply needs to include AI that has a proper visual spectrum tied to stages of alertness, and not go lazy with a simple line-of-sight AI. This isn't asking much for today's games.


This is exactly what we have. AIs are more/less likely to notice you depending on whether they are alerted to your presence (among many other factors). On top of that when you're hiding, you're not "automatically hidden", you're just less likely to be noticed, or noticed as quickly.

Hiding is no guarantee of safety in Rapture, it just increases your odds of avoiding trouble.

-Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock

[Bioshock_FTW!]

This is exactly what we have. AIs are more/less likely to notice you depending on whether they are alerted to your presence (among many other factors). On top of that when you're hiding, you're not "automatically hidden", you're just less likely to be noticed, or noticed as quickly.

Hiding is no guarantee of safety in Rapture, it just increases your odds of avoiding trouble.

-Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock

That. Is. Awesome!

I love how much more dynamic things are getting in AI. Sweet.

[xenomorph]

I remember playing through the thief series and rarely if ever being forced to fight an ai on there terms because i could always exploit the stealth system.

I inched my way through a level and ghosted it or killed/blackjacked each enemy, assuming i had the patence. The enemy positions were always the same, very little random patroling if any. This was especially true on levels i had already completed obviously. I rarely was forced to change positions and rehide and usually rehiding wasn't an option once you were caught.

Having to change positions and more random ai patrols adds alot of realism expecially in terms of stealth gameplay. I think for bioshock a combination of forethought and improv in regards to stealth would work well.

Hopefully the game is a big enough sandbox in terms of level design and ai to allow for a fairly deep stealth experience, styles of play that the devs didn't intend but the players invented (not nessicarally ai bugs or exploits)

The more freedom and choices the better!