Desire and Fulfilment

[Flynn Taggart]

I've heard alot of talk about NPC desires to fulful needs and how that creates a kind of "dynamic" environment. I was wondering about character needs though. How deep can that get? I know that the character can drink the alcohol, for instance, but will the character ever be hungry or thirsty? Or what if you're trapped in a room and accidentally set fire to the place, can you suffocate yourself?

[^ilovebioshock!]

Or what if you're trapped in a room and accidentally set fire to the place, can you suffocate yourself?

uh idon't know but you will also burn to death;)

[D'Sparil]

Do the enemies have specific needs, or are they just adam junkies? I think someone said something about them searching and looting corpses?

[Flynn Taggart]

Yeah. What's the behavior of splicers like? I mean they'd need resources too, right. Would they loot other dead splicers for stuff (not adam, we already know that that's what little sisters do)?

[ffanxii4ever]

I believe that in the E3 video, you actually see some splicer walking around looking at people, possibly looting them

[Da Bubs]

I believe that in the E3 video, you actually see some splicer walking around looking at people, possibly looting them

your talking about the one in the record store, right? that is what it looks like that one is doing. I wonder if they actually gather resources or if it is just cosmetic.

[PrivateJoker]

In the newest build Splicers will be doing provocative strip teases followed up with massive stabbing attacks.

[borgdrone89]

In the newest build Splicers will be doing provocative strip teases followed up with massive stabbing attacks.

really? i seriously doubt that... and i wouldnt like to see it either. it wouldnt suit the theme setting of the game

[Hatesink]

I think it'd be totally cool to be approached by a seductive splicer with a hidden agenda ;)

Unfortunately I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll actually see that in the game :p

[Rapture_Tourist]

The need for drinking and eating is realistic, but spoils the gameplay fun in my opinion.

Since Rapture is a nearly fallen city with altered humans, I doubt there are many spots with eatable things.

[Hatesink]

The need for drinking and eating is realistic, but spoils the gameplay fun in my opinion.I think it could be fun if handled well. In Arx Fatalis you barely needed to eat and so I stopped carrying food, but than when I got down to the Dwarf tunnels, which were miles away from any food, suddenly then I needed to eat. It was so irritating. If there'd been something to let me know I should take food at that point it would have made the game a lot more enjoyable. I felt like that was a pacing issue (kind of a design flaw). If there's dynamic training, that kind of thing hopefully should be avoided.

[Raveness]

No, eating/drinking/sleeping/crapping are human functions that should not be reproduced in a game environment, as they are a pure example of how fun trumps realism. They are a burden that in reality we don't like to think about, so why deposit them into a game which needs to maintain a consistent flow and interest level.

There are other burdens that a game like Bioshock can employ, and nutritional requirements can be explained away by the resident plasmids. An injection of nutrients and vitamins is narratively plausible in a place like Rapture.

[Hatesink]

It's another aspect of resource management. You have to 'feed your weapons' so-to-speak, so why not have to keep the player-character fed (as long as it's well-implimented)? It just adds another layer to the gameplay, as well as more opportunities for additional content. Cooking, alchemy etc. in Arx Fatalis was really cool.

[Raveness]

It's not a type of resource management that's needed, as it adds nothing to gameplay, and it is a type of management that is purely a burden and nothing else. You eat/sleep/drink to bring yourself back to square one, not to any heightened state of gameplay or character ability. I find any similar style of resource management that doesn't tie into the type of game (FPS) becomes pointless busywork.

[Hatesink]

I agree that if something's pointless and boring it shouldn't be in the game, but if it adds enough to the gameplay to be able to justify its inclusion, then lets have food.

The cooking etc. in Arx Fatalis was a lot of fun.

[Raveness]

The cooking etc. in Arx Fatalis was a lot of fun.
Yes, but wasn't cooking an element of the game that enhanced the state of the player, giving some extra abilities, rather than being a trite requirement of basic survival?

I cannot see food in Bioshock adding to gameplay at all. We are presented with a genetic device that enhances the players abilities, one that can easily explain away how nutrients can be provided, dropping the need to partake in a visual representation of the player getting their daily supplements. Food in most games was a distracting exercise of a repetitious nature.

[Hatesink]

Yes, but wasn't cooking an element of the game that enhanced the state of the player, giving some extra abilities, rather than being a trite requirement of basic survival?As far as I remember you could collect basic ingredients for both cooking and alchemy (and also for forging weapons), but the food iirc didn't imbue you with any kind of extra powers (and you could just eat an apple rather than cooking). But basically I really enjoyed cooking and alchemy in Arx, especially cooking. I just wish it had more of an impact, or that there was more reason for it. e.g. the game's economy was such that it was in your interests to cook pies in order to sell them to the local stores (the same with enchanting weapons— if an enchanted weapon could bring you more money, it would have added a lot to the gameplay, if the game's economy was more fully realised.)

I cannot see food in Bioshock adding to gameplay at all. We are presented with a genetic device that enhances the players abilities, one that can easily explain away how nutrients can be provided, dropping the need to partake in a visual representation of the player getting their daily supplements. Food in most games was a distracting exercise of a repetitious nature.I can— you've just kind of outlined a possibility right there: What if you did have some kind of intravenous supplement, or plasmid, that released you from the need for searching for, storing and carrying food, etc. If you had that plasmid it might free up inventory space and negate the need to eat but at a cost— i.e. you might not be as strong (which might limit inventory space), and you would have used up a plasmid slot.

For me, survival seems to be such an important theme of BioShock that that type of gameplay would be more than justifiable.

[ffanxii4ever]

I think they will allow you to "eat" in Bioshock, but I hope it isn't a requirement like in Arx Fatalis. Considering plasmids like the Iron Gut, it should most likely be something that just heals you some if you decide to eat, similar to SS2. And different foods should have different effects as well, ie alcohol gives you a boost to you current health, healing you, but detracts from your Eve reserves, and when you drink too much, your vision blurs, that sort of thing

[Hatesink]

Maybe, extending on the example I posted above, if there was some kind of 'Sustenance Plasmid', which released you from the need to acquire food but also meant a drop in player-character strength, then the food you do find or carry could temporarily boost strength.

[Raveness]

Terrible idea. Again you are pushing eating, the requirement for sustenance, as a requirement for basic survival in the game. So know players have to worry about acquiring food, which essentially becomes a contrived mechanic that simply places a time wasted burden on the gameplay. Now you suggest if they use it, it will reduce another aspect of their state, and they will have to search for yet another contrivance to bring them back to nominal state. The player now has 2 burdens of realism which do not add anything to interesting gameplay.

Again, these types of elements that are not inherent to the style of game, and food isn't one for a game that plot-wise may take a couple of days, are completely superfluous and detract from gameplay.

Food should only enhance the player's state for a limited time, or bring it back to nominal if injury or reduced effectiveness was caused from another element.

[Hatesink]

Terrible idea. Again you are pushing eating, the requirement for sustenance, as a requirement for basic survival in the game. So know players have to worry about acquiring food, which essentially becomes a contrived mechanic that simply places a time wasted burden on the gameplay. Now you suggest if they use it, it will reduce another aspect of their state, and they will have to search for yet another contrivance to bring them back to nominal state. The player now has 2 burdens of realism which do not add anything to interesting gameplay.

Again, these types of elements that are not inherent to the style of game, and food isn't one for a game that plot-wise may take a couple of days, are completely superfluous and detract from gameplay.

Food should only enhance the player's state for a limited time, or bring it back to nominal if injury or reduced effectiveness was caused from another element.I have a different viewpoint. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :/

[nmrahde]

I like Hatesink's "sustenance plasmid" idea. Or even if there's passive plasmids with an Adam trickle.

...and if done right Eating and Sleeping (I have no justification for Crapping) can add to experience for some games. (Oblivion)

I don't see sleeping adding anything to Bioshock but consumption of resources other than the Little Sisters and Adam. What if all the denizens now need Adam - as in not just in story but in gameplay as well. That might allow you to prey solely upon Little Sisters with hit and run tactics while slowly denying resources to the greater whole.

Or perhaps a way to poison/corrupt the Adam supply. Oblivion had several missions where you could beat it by poisoning someone (and FO2 had an option to do that with Salvatore's airtank...), although it made you realize that in most cases trying to guarantee that Frank the Orc will eat this apple and not those five became tedious. However with a dependence on only Adam/Eve you know they'll have to get it sometime...

[nmrahde]

Also, I apologize that both of those scenarios seem really sociopathic now that I re-read them. (Methinks I fail the Little Sister Morality Test)

[D'Sparil]

Sidenote: Why WAS it so hard for people to eat those damn poisoned apples anyways.... always got bored of that after taking away all other food in the area and literally dumping 11 poisoned apples around no one would eat them afer days..... WTF!?

[LowEnergyCycle]

Sidenote: Why WAS it so hard for people to eat those damn poisoned apples anyways.... always got bored of that after taking away all other food in the area and literally dumping 11 poisoned apples around no one would eat them afer days..... WTF!?

Yeeeaaaah... I know... Radiant AI my arse!

[v.dog]

On the subject of eating: Requiring the consumption of food to stay alive was one of the features dropped from Stalker for the simple fact is that it wasn't any fun. As with any game, the desire for realism needs to be tempered by the need for fun. One of the reason we play games to to escape from the real world and its mundane trivialities (eating, going to the bathroom, paying taxes, et al). If the game is not fun, people won't play, regardless of how 'real' it is.

Another thing is, we don't know how much time will be spent in Rapture. If the timescale is simply hour for hour, then you won't be there longer than 20/30 hours, easily survivable without food.

Food in Bx should be the same in as it is in most games, simply a method to regain some of the health you lost. Iron gut would simply mean you'd get the same benefit from a spanner as you would a loaf of bread.

[^ilovebioshock!]

:eek: In the newest build Splicers will be doing provocative strip teases followed up with massive stabbing attacks.

have you seen how ugly splicers are;)

[Raveness]

On the subject of eating: Requiring the consumption of food to stay alive was one of the features dropped from Stalker for the simple fact is that it wasn't any fun. As with any game, the desire for realism needs to be tempered by the need for fun. One of the reason we play games to to escape from the real world and its mundane trivialities (eating, going to the bathroom, paying taxes, et al). If the game is not fun, people won't play, regardless of how 'real' it is.

Another thing is, we don't know how much time will be spent in Rapture. If the timescale is simply hour for hour, then you won't be there longer than 20/30 hours, easily survivable without food.

Food in Bx should be the same in as it is in most games, simply a method to regain some of the health you lost. Iron gut would simply mean you'd get the same benefit from a spanner as you would a loaf of bread.

Agreed 100%. If the story does not cover a time span of more than a couple days, no point in introducing a burden of human function that can be dismissed or put off within that time period. Oblivion is a poor example, because the game's story and time counter could go up to several weeks depending on the amount of journeying the player did.

[Hatesink]

If it's that short a time-frame then, yes, I agree. No food ;)

If it was more of an RPG, then I think the idea of a 'Subsistence Plasmid' and how it effected the player-character with regards health would have been totally in line with the theme, and I think it could have worked really well.

[nmrahde]

I agree that it doesn't makes sense for the player to have to eat as they'll only be there a few days at most.

There are other things "living" in Rapture however, and I think most of them have been there a few days.

The main thing I like is just the idea of being able to sabotage whatever resources the NPCs consume. Whether that's food or Adam/Eve or even switching the charging unit for the helipod things from AC to DC.