Other locations?

[pn18]

Well, Rapture is cool, but what about other locations? We know, that Rapture gets it's energy from underwater vulcans. How about kick'n some splicer asses there? Or there could be some underwater caves filled with some oxygen (I'm thinking here about the outdoor parts of Doom3), which you can visit.

Do you have another idea for an alternive location? :o

[Hatesink]

I'm hoping the whole thing's going to take place in rapture, since I really don't like chaotic environments. e.g. if there was a 'recovered' reef or some such thing (although that might not be too bad).

Chaotic environments are way too maze-like and the textures always repeat.

[Hatesink]

Maybe we could transport to Citadel Station.

[Tellurian]

Hm, maybe in the vein of the "spiritual successor" to Shock 2 they'll make the end level a drastic deviation from the rest of the game.
But I don't really hope for it. Rapture seems interesting enough the way it is, giving the level designers enough possibilities for, well, creating a lot of awesome levels.

But I can imagine a part where the player needs to acquire a big-daddy like diving suit (or a "resist ocean-floor pressure" plasmid) for a little walk outside...

[Adabiviak]

Short of jaunts 'outside', I think they can convey the story nicely in the context of the city. A park-like atrium would be nice, especially a really big one. Taking the Big Daddy's 'diving' motif out of context in that setting would be an interesting juxtaposition - just the sort of thing to give a player a feeling of 'wtf happened here?'

[Renight]

I hope their is a garden area, with trees and plants, giving some free oxygen to the city. Now, in that area, you will fight little 13 year old boys who have telekinetic plasmids, and they like to swing. So if you get close will their on a swing they will get off and stalk you, and even if you turn your back, they will not harm you unless you try to harm them. Or mabye a gang of them would bring down a big daddy and talk to the little girls and be like, "We saved you from the evil dragon princess!" That would be cool, but would have to be a scripted battle, so the game would lose its cool, uniquieness.
But I think a telekinetic or mabye even super fast telekinetic 13 year old enamy would be kindof cool, what do you think?

[Xerxes]

Hm, maybe in the vein of the "spiritual successor" to Shock 2 they'll make the end level a drastic deviation from the rest of the game.

Like the body of the Many?

I hope there's the golf course we see on the official site!

[Raveness]

In the same manner as System Shock 2, which had excellent level design contained almost entirely within starships, except for the poor levels in The Many's hive, the entire game should be contained within Rapture.

A city underwater can contain almost anything one on the surface can, modified of course to have a dome around it. You could have arboretums, tidal farms, temples (that deify man of course ;)), carnivals, sports arenas, subpens, parks, tatoo parlors, indoor go-karting, municipal buildings, a simulated lake resort, etc....whatever fits the mold of the design and doesn't seem out of place.

I'm sure even though we've mostly seen claustrophobic corridors and promenades so far, Irrational can deliver us inspiring levels :)

[jackinthebox]

I hope their is a garden area, with trees and plants, giving some free oxygen to the city...

this (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/screenshots/screenshot_10_xl.jpg) screenshot shows us some garden area, but who knows how big it really is...
i think it wouldn't be bad if you could like dive around a little or explore a vulcan (!), but IG shouldn't push it too hard...

[GuybrushThreepwood]

this (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/screenshots/screenshot_10_xl.jpg) screenshot shows us some garden area, but who knows how big it really is...
i think it wouldn't be bad if you could like dive around a little or explore a vulcan (!), but IG shouldn't push it too hard...

You can see on the picture it's a graveyard too! ;) :cool:

[jam777]

You can see on the picture it's a graveyard too! ;) :cool:

Perhaps the grave of a Little Sister?

It looks as though the Big Daddy's protecting it.

[v.dog]

I just hope the place isn't full of spiders. I hate those spiders.

[Raveness]

I just hope the place isn't full of spiders. I hate those spiders.
You'll be fine as long as you stay out of the mall. It crawls :)

[Komistis]

The industrial/power generator levels of Rapture have me intrigued (ala the engineering deck from SS2). Ken Levine was asked in a previous interview if there would be sections of Rapture that show how the city functions, ie how the city can generate power from the ocean currents, and he said yes. Now that I'd like to see. The indoor go-karting sounds like fun too, Raveness ;)

[LowEnergyCycle]

You'll be fine as long as you stay out of the mall. It crawls :)

I hope there's a location in Bioshock with the exact kind of I-do-not-want-to-ever-ever-go-back-there-again atmosphere that SS2's Mall had. I remember litterally tip-toeing around that level for hours, hating every second I was there. They really made you suffer because - thanks to that sound clip - you were already pretty certain you didn't want to go inside before you even got there. And then when you were inside... I mean, Malls are supposed to be nice places... Genius!

I'm hoping for the same kind of forever-memorable experiences in Bioshock.

[v.dog]

The industrial/power generator levels of Rapture have me intrigued (ala the engineering deck from SS2). Ken Levine was asked in a previous interview if there would be sections of Rapture that show how the city functions, ie how the city can generate power from the ocean currents, and he said yes. Now that I'd like to see.Especially since it's built on technology we can actually understand. I hope the got someone in to say 'this is how this would actually work' rather than just making a bunch of machines in a large room.

[Tellurian]

The industrial/power generator levels of Rapture have me intrigued (ala the engineering deck from SS2). Ken Levine was asked in a previous interview if there would be sections of Rapture that show how the city functions, ie how the city can generate power from the ocean currents, and he said yes. Now that I'd like to see. The indoor go-karting sounds like fun too, Raveness ;)

:eek:
I'm creeped out by the sheer thought of something like that. Well. Especially since it's Irrational doing this. *_*
Admitably, my personally most horrific level in SS2 was Ops, followed closely by the engineering storage levels.
Something of that quality scaryness in Bioshock... And I'm even more sold than I am already.

[Hatesink]

Go-carting would be really cool. I remember seeing an old science fiction film where they tore around a kind of bio-deck in go-cart type vehicles. Rows and rows of plants with the characters go-carting around the place.

It could be a little like Danny Torrence peddling his tricycle around the Overlook Hotel. One of those things you always wanted to do as a kid.

[pn18]

I'm sorry for digging out this old thread, but...


what about this skyscraper? is it the only building above the sea level? what's the meaning of this building?
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7399/vlcsnap36668wt2.png

[Hatesink]

I think that's the lighthouse that houses the bathysphere— the entrance to Rapture.

[pn18]

so it's like the housing of an elevator (if you will)?:confused:

[Hatesink]

Kind of...

I think the tower is like the conning tower of a submarine (it allows you to open the hatch without flooding the interior (because it holds the entrance above the waves)), the light at the top is to mark the position of the entrance to whoever is looking for it (new arrivals, delivery of supplies etc. (maybe why the pilot put the plane down where he did— because he thought he'd found land)), and the tower houses a bathysphere that takes you down to Rapture.

At least I think that's what it is (I think it's the same tower that's shown in the BioShock movies, just after the plane-crash that delivers the player-character to the entrance of Rapture).

The game starts with the player underwater following a plane crash in the ocean, surrounded by debris. No introductory cut scene is displayed explaining how this happened, leaving the player to decide for themselves why they were on the plane. Nearby, a lighthouse is sticking out of the water, in the middle of the ocean. Upon getting inside and traversing the internal stairwell, the player finds a bathysphere...

[gughunter]

Go-carting would be really cool. I remember seeing an old science fiction film where they tore around a kind of bio-deck in go-cart type vehicles. Rows and rows of plants with the characters go-carting around the place.

I believe that was Silent Running. Trivia fact: the score for Silent Running was written by Peter Schickele, best known as the "discoverer" of P.D.Q. Bach's misbegotten oeuvre.

[Hatesink]

It was Silent Running: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running (I just ran a search).

It's been years since I saw that film.

[nmrahde]

If there's outdoor locations there needs to be something to explain why you can't just leave (other than invisible zone walls).

Part of what makes the whole survival/what happened here? types of games/movies so captivating is that you can't leave. Aliens would've been really short and boring if their dropship hadn't crashed and they could leave. Likewise for the SS games - If I'd had my own ship there I'dve hightailed it away. (Some people might stay, yes - but not most.)

hmm...for that matter does something happen to said bathysphere that brings you down to prevent it from going back up? I'm just thinking that if I was the survivor a plane crash at sea and I wanted to be found staying by the freakin lighthouse would be a much better idea than hiding under the ocean...maybe the player doesn't want to be found?

[Raveness]

We're in the middle of a frickin ocean, so we obviously can't just leave via a short-range bathysphere, designed for aquatic travels within the vicinity only, and return to continental civilization without finding out how to engineer such a long-range rescue, which is part of the exploration done within Rapture.

Interior simulations of surface locales will need to have physical barriers to contain the nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere. The Outdoor sojourns will end in a long, dark ocean ahead of you, to which the bathysphere can give out a beacon warning if you stray too far from base. The caves/reefs can utilize believably designed rock barriers.

[BioShockWins]

you mean underwater valcanos not vulcans :D

But what would happen if the enhabbitance of BioShock escaped?
I smell a sequel...

[nmrahde]

I didn't suggest using the bathysphere for travel other than along the vertical axis. However I'm assuming that (unless something happens to it), if it can go down to Rapture it can go back up.

If you have a way to get back to the surface then it's conceivable that you could salvage bits of rapture pieces at a time to develop a small raft and flee, although not that likely. What I think is likely is you scrounging around long enough for something to light the lighthouse with, get some food and then head back to the lighthouse and wait for rescue.

Which would be fairly boring. Something as simple as a cable for the bathysphere snapping on the descent, the cable snagging on some debris on an attempted trip back up, or even just the door hinge breaking keeps you in Rapture.

If Rapture was at the bottom of an undersea crater or trench with (for the player) un-scalable walls, then you could have a limited outdoor environ while still not allowing the player to escape. It would also serve to hide Rapture from prying eyes...

I hate the "You are going too far away from X" method of controlling where a player goes (KotoR did that on Tattooine), as for those with an inquisitive nature that's hardly a good reason. If it was humanity would not be scattered across the globe.

Edit: Lots of secluded places down there for Rapture - http://mapmachine.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/viewandcustomize.html?task=getMap&themeId=p10400

[Raveness]

So what if you can reach the ocean's surface and get to the lighthouse. You're banking assumptions that the area Rapture is directly under is within distance of any long-range rescue, and the raft idea you propose is utterly ridiculous.

Rapture is an isolated society, trying to maintain secrecy, and only by word of mouth should anyone know about it. The lighthouse is used as an indicator for those who already know the general vicinity Rapture is within, and it doesn't necesarily have any effective radio equipment to use.

I hate the "You are going too far away from X" method of controlling where a player goes (KotoR did that on Tattooine), as for those with an inquisitive nature that's hardly a good reason. If it was humanity would not be scattered across the globe.

I hear this all the time, but rarely does a good argument come up for it. This type of forced barrier on the player's action is directly connected to common sense. Your example of Tattooine is poorly chosen, as even if you the player would not know the dangers of venturing into vast desert wastes, the character you control has an innate common sense of the place they are visiting and their goals herein.

Player's do tend to break the confines of the programmed worlds they play in, then complain that they could, only to look like buffoons when they explain how they ventured into a place where, if the situation was real, the player character would be clinically retarded to go such a place. There's a difference between steering the player away from places no sane person would go (and what's the difference if it is a physical barrier like a fence, or a warning message that you risk life and limb for no conceivable reason going further) and sane inquisitiveness.

[nmrahde]

the raft idea you propose is utterly ridiculous.

In 1978 Tim Severin sailed a leather curragh (small wood frame boat with animal skins/hides stretched over) from Ireland to Newfoundland to prove that St. Brendan could have done the same in the sixth century. (The Brendan Voyage ISBN 0380437112)

So if piloted by someone with the ability to navigate (that would be the key part) a raft could be used.

I'm fine with an oxygen limit if you go outdoors. That creates a more realistic barrier, IMO. (I like the option of acting in ways contrary to self preservation - especially when I have the option to reload)

You could even have a tether on any suits that allow to go outside so that you can only range so far.

...just as long as it's not a message saying "You can't go here." when physically I can go there even though it's potentially hazardous/certainly fatal.

You can still have plenty of neat places to explore within the limits of an air supply. Sunken U-Boat, crashed airplane, deep undersea ravine, excavation of R'yleh, undersea mining/power generation etc.

[Raveness]

I'm fine with an oxygen limit if you go outdoors. That creates a more realistic barrier, IMO. (I like the option of acting in ways contrary to self preservation - especially when I have the option to reload)

You could even have a tether on any suits that allow to go outside so that you can only range so far.

...just as long as it's not a message saying "You can't go here." when physically I can go there even though it's potentially hazardous/certainly fatal.

So you basically argue against a mechanic that would not allow you to go beyond barriers of common sense, but you are fine with that because you would just reload, which is another game mechanic that avoids common sense :D

What you've espoused (tether, oxygen limitation) I agree are narratively better looking, but they are still superficial dressing on the same principle of a "You can't go here" barrier. You sound like you simply don't like a message popping up in the middle of the screen saying so. Neither do I. Such a prompt would be horribly immerseless.

My original thought (bathysphere can give out a beacon warning if you stray too far from base) is not a gamey message, but rather a warning light on the bathysphere control panel. I wouldn't even want a recorded voice explaining why the light turned first yellow, then red, but would prefer it if the player could continue further, and simply run out of fuel or oxygen as the levels bottom out. It may be preferable when the bathysphere reaches a PNR, that instead of leading the player on, thinking they could make it back to airlock if they hurry, that the fuel/oxygen levels drop faster than normal to get them to 'death & load quicksave' quicker.

[nmrahde]

So you basically argue against a mechanic that would not allow you to go beyond barriers of common sense, but you are fine with that because you would just reload, which is another game mechanic that avoids common sense :DI like being able to explore. :)

Thanks for the clarification with the rest of your post. Yeah essentially I don't mind if a game is leading me by the nose as long as I don't notice it, for the whole sake of immersiveness.

Hrmm...would Rapture have a sewer system as we think of it? I imagine probably although with the Ocean right outside you could just have the pipes go straight out to the ocean...

Or a section with catwalks above a geothermal vent?

Edit: Oh yeah...backwash. Wow the wacky "fun" that could happen with underwater sewer mishaps!

[Raveness]

Hrmm...would Rapture have a sewer system as we think of it? I imagine probably although with the Ocean right outside you could just have the pipes go straight out to the ocean...

Or a section with catwalks above a geothermal vent?

Plausible on both ideas. Essentially a sewage system would be the same, built under bedrock, using a cycle of airtight pipe transfers to avoid backwash when depositing the refuse into the ocean. I would also assume Rapture to be more up to date with recycling than the rest of the world was in the 60's, maybe not as advanced as we are now in the 2000's, but a possibility exists for some alternate history recycling techniques and technologies.

Catwalks above a geothermal vent (I've used that term 3 times today :o) gives me vibes of a level designer's dream come true :)

[nmrahde]

To steal yet another location idea from Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight (love the level design of that game):

Some sort of sunken ship that as you start exploring it starts to teeter/fall so that now what was down might be up or sideways.

Or a domed area off a ways from Rapture...you go in find...something...have a fight with it, get what you came for and start to leave. Then you hear the cracking. Now you have to run for your life back down that corridor to the safety of the far airlock before the structural integrity fails completely....

[SPDeath]

Half-life 2 had a nice way of keeping people out of the water. Leeches, yes killer leeches, you know mutated killer leaches, fast mutated killer leaches. Well I never said it was original or creative but it sure as hell kept the player out of the water :D .

[nmrahde]

Were there any of the giant fishies from HL. I recall in one of the teleportation mishaps seeing the shadowy shape of one but I never re-explored the water (those lampreys are so small they become hard to deal with)

But yeah some sort of underwater life that acts as a barrier would be cool. I just don't want to run into any "invisible wall" type barriers. (Unfortunately Oblivion has those - was very annoying when trying to stalk a dear that could cross while I couldn't)

Hrmm...it wouldn't fit like right in the middle of the game, but maybe near the end or in a sequel but...

You could be walking down a spur that goes off from the main city. Eventually the clear tube has some dirt/sediment on the top obscuring the ocean. You press on. Now the inside of the tunnel becomes more damp, generally transitioning into something like the body of the many (texture-wise not level design wise). Some various digestive noise spooks you and we're treated to a brief scripted/cinematic scene where you run back down the hallway to the safety of the airlock. Looking back out you see some sort of giant fishy back off from gnawing on the tunnel and swim away.

Granted that sort of location doesn't add anything in the way of items or story, but it'd add plenty to the "I'm boned." atmosphere...

Edit: (Or it will until Raveness rebuttals...)

[Raveness]

Keep em coming, nmradhe :) You have lots of good implementation ideas for defining the barriers of levels. You should be hired by Irrational :p They should be mixed and matched depending on the level design and what's readily available to exploit.

Were there any of the giant fishies from HL. I recall in one of the teleportation mishaps seeing the shadowy shape of one but I never re-explored the water (those lampreys are so small they become hard to deal with)

Nah, there's was only the one brief cameo. Honestly, in retrospect I felt the HL1 anthology is a better game than HL2, at least for now.

[SPDeath]

Nah, there's was only the one brief cameo. Honestly, in retrospect I felt the HL1 anthology is a better game than HL2, at least for now.

Well the original half-life had more variety enemy wise, HL2 had zombies, combine and aliens. I know the zombies and aliens had good variety, but the combine.."oh looks its a combine, oh and there's another in differently coloured armour and look a third with... um... one eye". I mean come on this isnt marathon :D , enough with the colour coded enemies.

[Raveness]

No doubt, luv. You had 3 or 4 variation of Combine's, 3 or 4 variations of headcrabs, 3 or 4 variations of crab zombies, the antlions, manhacks, and various ships or vehicles.

Half Life had the headcrabs, zombies, bullsquids, vortigaunts, tentacle monster, fly-shooting grunts, snarks, floating reavers, houndeyes, gargs, and then the military on top of that w/ their assassin *****es.

Plus weapon variety and usefulness wins in Opposing Force. I luved that spore launcher pet, stroking him as he purrs :)

[SPDeath]

Plus weapon variety and usefulness wins in Opposing Force. I luved that spore launcher pet, stroking him as he purrs :)

OK, now your scaring me :eek:

[Raveness]

OK, now your scaring me :eek:
What? He's a loveable firearm mutant pet :p Adrian Shephard does pet him occasionally

EDIT: this one
http://www.hlportal.de/images/content/hl-opfor/weapons/spore.jpg

[nmrahde]

What no mention of the Gargantuans or the Gonarch? I like having enemies that just scream "I am the top of the food chain!". Possibly with a "Rawr!". That's what I liked about Mehrunes Dagon and the Gatekeeper from Oblivion and Shivering Isles.

I can see BioShock having something like that...a "Master-inspired" (or "Tetsuo-inspired" if nobody remembers "The Master") room that's full of oozing tentacles and other organs growing all off of everywhere. It could talk with like fifty Ryan voices emanating from various points around the room. Some could have higher/lower volumes, be offset from the "main" voices, or be talking about something unrelated. (I was originally thinking they could have several different voices but there's an underlying socialist theme there that wouldn't fit with Ryan's unfettered capitalism).

[nmrahde]

Or since HL1 was brought up something that gives the same sort of effect as the scaffolding on that open cliff faces (I so like being more afraid that I have no cover than I am that something's gonna get me in the dark tunnel)...

Like some sort of pipe lattice in the upper areas of the city (although considering how beauty obsessed they are they'd probably try to hide the pipes), since it'd be more practical to just run them to the sides or top of the dome (which after thinking on would be doable to have the machinery there perhaps floating - think the underwater dead cities from Asimov's two Norby books).

Anyway, splicers would probably feel right at home chasing you across a lattice of pipes (hey if they fall they have those hooks). While you frantically try to escape/not fall and brain yourself...

Ooh you could have a nice cinematic/scripted where you stumble upon a "broken" Little Sister who is playing hopscotch while singing her little song on the lattice only to... (god that'd be horrific to watch if done correctly)

Edit: "On the lattice, yeah on the lattice. As I sing my little song on the lattice" - sorry couldn't resist...
Edit II: Keep em coming, nmradhe :) You have lots of good implementation ideas for defining the barriers of levels. You should be hired by Irrational :p Too bad I'm usually far too addicted to playing games than to actually try and mod/actually implement my ideas...:(
Edit III: I will not follow the dark path of Hatesink :p

[v.dog]

What? He's a loveable firearm mutant pet :p Adrian Shephard does pet him occasionallyNext you'll be telling us you named it. :P

[Raveness]

Next you'll be telling us you named it. :p

As a matter of fact, I did name it Jeriba 'Jerry' Shigan ;)

I can see BioShock having something like that...a "Master-inspired" (or "Tetsuo-inspired" if nobody remembers "The Master") room that's full of oozing tentacles and other organs growing all off of everywhere. It could talk with like fifty Ryan voices emanating from various points around the room. Some could have higher/lower volumes, be offset from the "main" voices, or be talking about something unrelated. (I was originally thinking they could have several different voices but there's an underlying socialist theme there that wouldn't fit with Ryan's unfettered capitalism).

Yeah, the Many represented Ken’s distrust of extreme socialism, Ryan’s gotta represent the same for extreme capitalism. Question is, how do you represent the enemy in a game if the enemy is the twisted perversion of the “individual”, and not the “collective”? At least how do you do so without turning him into a clichéd megalomaniac with a handlebar mustache & an evil laugh?

Branching off of your idea, I would imagine someone like Ryan planning an eventual enactment of a genetic meritocracy on Earth. If you've seen Moonraker, the villain there was training the best human specimens he could find, then shipped them off to his space station where he planned to Omega-bomb the surface of Earth & repopulate it with his geneticly superior stock. The theme actually stems from Rand's portrayal of Roarke, a man who only wished to deal with people on an even keel. But how do you do so when you're (thinking) superior?

[nmrahde]

It depends on which path his megalomaia takes him I guess. If he's truly interested in just being better than everyone else himself I can see him using Adam to incorporate the best (read as: steal) the best genes from all sources into himself, turning himself into some sort of genetic superman.

If he takes the boring route and is just interested in maintaining his control over Rapture (or perhaps extending it outward), then I can imagine him untouched too much with the genetic superman has his henchman ala Moonraker

"His name is Jaws. He kills people."

Ther more interesting route might be to have video/audio clips of him addressing you and looking like Adonis/Steve Reeves and being all suave. Once you find him he's a genetic superman after a fashion but is hideously deformed and dependent on Adam just to stay alive. You could take what was discussed about unhuman splicers (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326&highlight=splicers) and have him pawing with a flipper/tentacle/arm thing at a hologram/picture of him when he was beautiful then flying into a rage and smashing a mirror or something reflective when you walk in on him and the battle begins.

Just an idea anyway.

Edit: The only other idea I have would be to use combinations of those. Since unrestrained capitalism would usually (and in Rapture's case has) lead to war due to too many Alphas you could have their different megalomanias take the different routes. So you have self-tortured hideous man waging a personal war against the Adonis who has the army of supermen. (Then you can have people debating whether or not the war is just because he hates the Adonis's beauty or because he wants more control). And you could still have both of them be quite belligerent towards the player...

[Raveness]

I'd prefer the Nietzschean overman route you first mentioned, perhaps using himself as a genetic marker for a new "homo-sapien supremus". Thusly causing conflict among his peers like you mentioned in your edit, some attempting to steal the supremacy for themselves, some fighting more for equality, peace and moderation of genetic technologies. I'm betting some citizens came to Rapture for Rapture itself, and not just for personal gain.

[nmrahde]

I'd still like to see him have some sort of doubt or self loathing. All the "Im supremely confident in myself" villains are starting to get cooky cutter-ish. Perhaps make the player be the type to have supreme self confidence causing him to hate you more because you draw out his own inadequacies...

Preferably something with more than just one faction/bad guy as 1) Things are usually never that simple. and 2) I love the Three Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_three_kingdoms) period (it's really one of the great books in human literature IMO)

[SPDeath]

As a matter of fact, I did name it Jeriba 'Jerry' Shigan ;)

Ok..then. That reminds of Max Payne, when the grunts are talking about people who name there guns,

"So what do you call yours"

"I call it dick justice"

"I rest my case"