Unrealistic relationship between Big Daddy and Little Sisters?

[somecut8]

In the Bioshock: Developer Commentary (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWu6xZHAg8), when the demonstrater witnesses how the Big Daddy protects the the Little Sister, there is an unrealistic element to how the Big Daddy guards the girl. At about 3:56, when the Little Sister has finished collecting the adam, she follows the Big Daddy instead of having the Big Daddy follow her. Therefore, the Big Daddy has his back turned from the Little Sister, making it easy for you to do a hit and run attack on the Little Sister, thus voiding the role of the Big Daddy. This contrasts with 2:42 in which the Big Daddy follows the Little Sister, thus being able to guard her better.

The quick fix to this unrealistic situation, as the Big Daddy should be the protector, would be to have the Little Sister walk past the Big Daddy so that the Big Daddy will be able to guard her back.

[jackinthebox]

that's true... i haven't realized this fact.

[MidnightMarauder]

Obviously it's still a WORK IN PROGRESS, but yeah I see what your saying, another thing I noticed though while watching the film was when the player was throwing the grenades at the Big Daddy, the Little Sister was much to close to the blast for her not to have been killed by the grenade. I think that they need to have the Little Sister 'run for cover,' instead of keeping her so close to the Big Daddy in those kind of battle situations.

All these things were talking about though are probably going to get worked anyway, but it's fun to talk about until 8/21.

[Da Bubs]

about the big daddy being in front of the little sister, thats were you would want him for going around corners or through doorways because you would want him to go first. honestly, I dont think that were the big daddy is in relation to the little sister is going to make a big difference, he is basically a walking tank after all.

[Newbeing]

Yeah, unless there are two big daddies guarding one little sister, she is pretty much open to attack no matter what. It wasn't like he was leaving her in the dust or anything heh.

[Xerxes]

Yeah i agree with you but like another poster said... it's still a work in progress...

When i read the name of the topic i thought you were talking about how a little girl can "hang out" with these Huge and scary tanks... But anyway... in total chaos you search for your own father figure... :)

[a rabid chicken]

You must kill the big daddy before you kill the little sister, or you have to at least get the little sister alone somehow. Judging from what we've heard and seen, especially in the Hunting the Big Daddy, you can't just shoot the little sister, run up to her body, and pick up the adam. This hasn't been confiirmed, but if it were true, it would be super-easy to take the adam from the little sister, and there would be absolutely no point in killing the BD. Because of this, it doesn't matter whether the BD is in front or behind, it just matters that he is close.

[Corgano]

You must kill the big daddy before you kill the little sister, or you have to at least get the little sister alone somehow. I think in the first demo video they did, where you're outside the record store, you cast an irratant on the BD so that a splicer attacks and fights him. In about 2 seconds of the fight, it *looks* like the splicer kills the LS... and almost on accident too.

[a rabid chicken]

Corgano, maybe you didn't understand what I meant. I didn't mean that you CAN'T kill the little sisters if you want to, but I meant that getting adam from them isn't as simple as killing them and picking up an item from their body. This means that the question of whether the BD is in front or behind the LS is irrelevant, because getting the LS's adam is not a simple matter of shooting her, running over, picking it up, and escaping.

[MidnightMarauder]

That raises another question. How does one get ADAM from the little sisters?

[a rabid chicken]

The devs are still being secretive about that one. I thought the post above mine was very funny.

[Raveness]

Maybe you can use a plasmid to create a dormant electric charge within a recently fallen foe, then when a Little Sister comes to collect the Adam, she receives a disabling shock. If the player then dispatches the Big Daddy within a reasonable time before LS comes to, player can collect the adam. This plasmid would be costly to use, and the player rushed to get it done in time.

Just positing a potential situation. I think the way to get Adam from the LS requires ingenuity from the player, rather than an itchy trigger finger.

[MidnightMarauder]

Just a thought. Maybe you get ADAM the same way the little sister's get ADAM...scary.

Probably not true, but would definitley make exploiting the citizens of Rapture a little more difficult don't you think?

[Da Bubs]

That raises another question. How does one get ADAM from the little sisters?

I would geuss after they process it it eather comes back out the way it came or continues going, after which the little sister picks it up and carries it around.

[Rapture_Tourist]

I agree that it was strange to see how the Little Sister remained in the bombing range. I believe it changes soon.

About the leading Big Daddy....hmm, maybe after her work is done, the Big Daddy leads the Little Sister to the closest tube (that hole inside the wall?), to bring her to a save place?

And I guess you will take the ADAM from the Little Sister in a comparable way as she does, too. What are the alternatives then? She gets killed and her body explodes into a cloud of fresh ADAM, you just soak in through your nose. Naaah *g*. She gets transformed into a little container of ADAM - hell no :)

[Hatesink]

I guess if you wanted to be super-critical of the video you could really pick at it, but ultimately when it comes to media the characters and their behaviors etc. are largely symbolic/iconic, rather than totally naturalistic, and especially so with games, but here's my take:

At around two minutes into the video the Splicer is killed and the LS and BD walk on-screen. The LS is singing "Come on Mr. Bubbles, me and Mr. B", implying that her leading Mr. Bubbles around is a normal state of affairs.

If she's been attracted by the sound of gunfire and is anticipating a dead body as a result of a fire fight it's not unreasonable to assume that she'd be a little more weary, and much more guarded when rounding the corner (since there's a potential aggressor in the vicinity), maybe even letting the BD lead and hiding/walking behind him, frequently looking over her shoulder as they travel.

It's also not unreasonable to assume that most Splicers have learned to steer well clear of the BDs and so the LS has in turn learned not to fear attack in that kind of situation as long as there's a BD nearby.

So we can assume that hearing and even witnessing firefights (at least from a distance) as well as harvesting Adam from dead bodies, is within her comfort zone, as demonstrated by her behavior (she also switches back to her default behavior almost the instant the threat disappears).

Presumably the sound of gunfire (and more specifically the sound of the shotgun) is familiar to her, otherwise she might not feel as comfortable as her behavior seems to indicate she is.

As she rounds the corner the player backs into the shadows. Maybe we can assume that he's invisible to the LS at that point, or at least it seems so, although the BD still turns to face him and give a warning cry (presumably because the player has not retreated).

If the Little Sister did see the player-character, did she perceive him as being alien to the environment, or did she assume that he was just another Splicer? It seems that she would either have just assumed he was a known quantity (one that she doesn't have to worry about), or that she didn't see him because he'd retreated into the shadows (although the BD was aware of him, which implies he was at least visible to the BD, maybe for some unknown reason (e.g. night vision, heat vision etc.))

Also— the BD only seems to offer cover while the LS is (presumably) preoccupied with extracting Adam. I'm guessing that while she's not focused on that particular task the BD would assume that should a dangerous situation arise, she'd be able to run and hide .

I guess you might expect the BD to react to you in such a way that it would circumnavigate you in order to put itself between you and the LS, although at the point that it entered the room it would presumably have to assess the situation for all potential dangers, and so not be solely focused on the player. It may also be reluctant to risk triggering an attack by approaching a potential hostile, and so might have learned to keep a certain distance between itself and the potential aggressor.

Also— after the battle is initiated the Little Sister seems to run all over the place, to the extent of even putting herself in danger. She should probably run and hide as soon as the firefight starts. Depending on the extent of her experience of firefights she might even suffer shock at the first few shots (similar to someone reacting to a flashbang) and just freeze like a rabbit in headlights.

If you wanted to be really picky I guess, the BD could look a little more agitated at the fact that you haven't retreated (assuming it has emotions and isn't a machine), and the Little Sister could become much more clingy following the attack. Also, the frequency with which and the extent to which the spherical object is squeezed by the player could be randomised to give it a more natural feel. And if you want to go crazy you could suggest that the bots actually learn from the player's behaviors (e.g. the point at which any given player exhibits himself to be a threat etc.) rather than being scripted to react to the player with pre-set behaviors (although arguably I guess what they're doing is a very rudimentary learning)

I agree that it was strange to see how the Little Sister remained in the bombing range.I think she's definitely been configured to be invulnerable for the demo. At one point she's knocked off of her feet by a grenade explosion.

That leads me to the question. If you wanted to kill a BD and keep the LS alive, how could you do it (especially since the LSs seem to be susceptible to environmental factors, such as cold (and so need to get back to their vents pretty quickly)). Maybe there could be a way to trap them.

I wonder if turning the heat way up would cause the Big Daddies to boil in their suits?

And I guess you will take the ADAM from the Little Sister in a comparable way as she does, too. What are the alternatives then? She gets killed and her body explodes into a cloud of fresh ADAM, you just soak in through your nose. Naaah *g*. She gets transformed into a little container of ADAM - hell no :)I'm guessing that, rather than using it to torch the Big Daddy, you can give the teddy bear to the LS at some point (or at least I'd hope so), but what would stop her from just picking it up? Surely she would have already found it. Maybe (and this might sound dumb to a lot of people) but maybe it was discarded because it was wet and dirty; what if you could launder it so that she'd accept if from you. Would it cause her to drop the syringe? How would she react to you taking the Adam if she dropped it? Could you trade the Bear directly for Adam, or might it maybe just be used to improve your standing with a Little Sister, in much the same way as you can improve your standing with an RPG faction?

Edit: Also— the firefight doesn't seem to scare the fish :p ;)

[Rapture_Tourist]

I think the LS doesn't see the player as a danger unless you attack them or unless the BD is dead.

Hmm and I don't know...trading a teddy bear for ADAM...sounds too romantic for me :). The bear seemed to be just something in the enviroment and if the LS had been interested in it, she would have picked him up herself, I think. If you find a more rare toy, a trade is more possible, I guess.

[ComradeP]

I wouldn't be surprised if "extracting" ADAM from Little Sisters would be abstracted, as the main character can also "find" ADAM on bodies.

I really, really doubt the player will have to carve a corpse of a Little Sister open in search for ADAM. Otherwise we'd see a "Rated ZOMG for ZOMG" rating.

[Hatesink]

If they were going for that rating maybe they could task the player with making a Little Sister skin-suit to fool the BDs.

[Glottis]

That raises another question. How does one get ADAM from the little sisters?

I have been wondering that myself,after watching the HD vid again,and again last night.Adam is ,or seems to be something that is for lack of a better word 'ingested',so.....How do you 'get it' from the LS ?

If they were going for that rating maybe they could task the player with making a Little Sister skin suit to fool the BDs.

Watching too much 'Silence Of The Lambs' ? :D

[Hatesink]

Watching too much 'Silence Of The Lambs' ? :DMichael Mann's Manhunter (too cool) :D

[Alfie]

I thought that I'd read somewhere that the Little Sisters just collect ADAM from the dead, and reprocess it through their bodies into a useable form called EVE...? (I'm not even going to go into the many twisted scenarios that sets off in my mind!! :eek: )

Perhaps ADAM acts more like SS2's Cyber Modules (needed to select/equip the Plasmids), whilst EVE is more like Psi hypos (needed to actually use the plasmids over a length of time). This would also fit in with the stated goal of always having the player being wary of using too many resources/ammo/etc.

Just a thought. :confused:

[MidnightMarauder]

While I agree that extracting ADAM by those means would set off fireworks for our politicians. I actually think that Irrational might just do it. To tell you the truth I hope they do it. I think this will really make players think twice about getting ADAM. Whereas getting ADAM by just looting a dead body is just a little to easy or convenient if you ask me.

Now understand where I'm coming from, as I stated in a previous thread I have been unable to play through games like KOTOR and Jade Empire on the dark side because I couldn't be that evil, even to NPC's. But I have never been more excited for a game and I really want Irrational to pull out all the stops for this game, and I think this is one way to do just that. Don't get me wrong if they have another way of getting Adam than drinking the LS's blood I won't have a problem. I just think it would make the players actions a lot more meaningful in the world.

[ComradeP]

It is kind of odd though: even though ADAM doesn't seem to be a solid substance (or the Little Sisters have a way of "processing" it from solid form to liquid) one can find it on bodies and apparantly doesn't need a container to hold it. What gives?

MidnightMarauder: I respect that you could not be evil in KOTOR and Jade Empire. In fact, I was one of the few people that enjoyed it when a certain imp in a certain Baldur's Gate game who was a smith/tailor/leathworker all at the same time with "smacktalk" as a class ability gave me an item "of goody-two-shoes ness". Every time I get such an item, I say "in your face, evil".

[Adabiviak]

I think the Adam found on the local cadavers is already packaged to go (like the bottle found on the counter of the abandoned store). The Adam from the Little Sisters - that's going to be a nasty surprise, I think. Eve - not sure where that's coming from, but it can be found likewise in vials on the various cadavers of Rapture.

[Da Bubs]

There was a syringe of Eve immediatle before they go into the bathroom in the first gameplay video.

[Hans]

mmmm may be when u get a Little Sister u may extract adam from the Little Sister by a machine of some sort......

[ahrel]

I could just be seeing things, but it seems to be that the Little Sister drinks the fluid from the Syringe to refine/distill the ADAM (so it is possibly EVE before she swallows it -- which would explain the syringe filled with EVE...), then she seems to cough up a bit of the bloodly fluid and the ADAM into her hand. Which I'm assuming she pockets.

So in short, I bet you just have to wait for her to cough it up, before you make your decision to kill or coax her into giving you the ADAM. And getting it from them will probably just be like looting any other dead body.

Even if they don't physically cough it up, I'm sure it will still just be like normal looting.

[Hatesink]

I could just be seeing things, but...she seems to cough up a bit of the bloodly fluid and the ADAM into her hand. Which I'm assuming she pockets.I imagine she would just cough it up, but I took another look at the High-res big daddy hunting video and I don't think that's what she's doing there, I think she's just wiping her mouth.

She does seem to adjust the container however, so maybe she regurgitates it back into the cylinder (although I would have thought she'd have to hold the syringe below her chin to do that (rather than hold it up), although she could be syringing the Eve out).

[ffanxii4ever]

this game is dealing with morality and a little bit of gore, but the looting will most likely just be realistic "real time" looting, not like oblivion where the game pauses when looting, but you can be attacked while looting

[Corgano]

Corgano, maybe you didn't understand what I meant. I didn't mean that you CAN'T kill the little sisters if you want to, but I meant that getting adam from them isn't as simple as killing them and picking up an item from their body. This means that the question of whether the BD is in front or behind the LS is irrelevant, because getting the LS's adam is not a simple matter of shooting her, running over, picking it up, and escaping. Hmmm... Ok. Well, maybe you can take the tool that they use for yourself? Or maybe you could, er... get them to donate blood? In some of the screen shots, it looks like the player has befriended a LS, and she's leading him someplce. Maybe there's a processing center somewhere? That is a good question Rabid.

[Hatesink]

In some of the screen shots, it looks like the player has befriended a LS, and she's leading him someplce. Maybe there's a processing center somewhere? That is a good question Rabid.Maybe she takes you to the vent, climbs in and hands some Adam/Eve out to you.

If the Little Sister is killed will the BD pick her up and carry her away? There's some wallpaper art that seems to suggest that.

[Corgano]

Maybe she takes you to the vent, climbs in and hands some Adam/Eve out to you.

If the Little Sister is killed will the BD pick her up and carry her away? There's some wallpaper art that seems to suggest that. That would be cool to see. It would strengthen their relationship and make it more realistic. Yup, she could just be storing the stuff in a vent someplace too. Too many possibilites, and a long wait till August! :(

[Hatesink]

That would be cool to see. It would strengthen their relationship and make it more realistic. Yup, she could just be storing the stuff in a vent someplace too. Too many possibilites, and a long wait till August! :(More time for me to save up for the hardware ;)

[Adabiviak]

I often wonder how the Big Daddy would behave if you managed to drop a Little Sister when he wasn't looking. If that's somewhat impossible, distract him with an irritant of some kind and then when his back is turned, let her have it. When he returns and finds her dead... would he go bananas and come after you? Go about his way? Demonstrate some kind of despair?

[Corgano]

I often wonder how the Big Daddy would behave if you managed to drop a Little Sister when he wasn't looking. If that's somewhat impossible, distract him with an irritant of some kind and then when his back is turned, let her have it. When he returns and finds her dead... would he go bananas and come after you? Go about his way? Demonstrate some kind of despair? I don't really see a despair factor. The other two I could see as happening. Especially if he catches you over her dead body or something. However, if you do a, "Hit and Run" and get away and come back to him later, he probably just continues drudging on his way looking for another LS. Probably... :)

[Hatesink]

I don't think there's any way of taking out a Little Sister without the Big Daddy attacking you, although if I remember correctly, I think she does walk behind the BD after extracting the Adam. Maybe it would be possible to perform a stealth kill in those circumstances. Maybe that's why she looks over her shoulder as they're walking away— so that she can alert the BD to potential threats.

[ComradeP]

I don't think there's any way of taking out a Little Sister without the Big Daddy attacking you

Physics could be your friend: it might be possible to place a huge pile of trash between a door/entry and a vent shaft, whilst also making sure there's a way for the player out of there (say, a route to a balcony to jump down from or the like).

You take the Little Sister from her vent shaft, the Big Daddy walks into the room, pissed off, sees the enormous pile of thrash, is like "WTF Mates?" and can't do anything about the situation except power drilling the thrash for a few hours.

Assuming one uses plasmid powers to create the pile of rubble, it would be a choice between ADAM and EVE.

(on the other hand, you could also use plasmid-based powers to give the Little Sisters teddybears and/or emo cd's)

[Da Bubs]

Physics could be your friend: it might be possible to place a huge pile of trash between a door/entry and a vent shaft, whilst also making sure there's a way for the player out of there (say, a route to a balcony to jump down from or the like).



or instead of doing all that work you could just drop a heavy object on them both.

It sounds more like we are trying to heist a casino rather than kill a little girl;)

[D'Sparil]

Quick, call in the team from Oceans Eleven.

[Silverback]

In the Bioshock: Developer Commentary (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWu6xZHAg8), when the demonstrater witnesses how the Big Daddy protects the the Little Sister, there is an unrealistic element to how the Big Daddy guards the girl. At about 3:56, when the Little Sister has finished collecting the adam, she follows the Big Daddy instead of having the Big Daddy follow her. Therefore, the Big Daddy has his back turned from the Little Sister, making it easy for you to do a hit and run attack on the Little Sister, thus voiding the role of the Big Daddy. This contrasts with 2:42 in which the Big Daddy follows the Little Sister, thus being able to guard her better.

The quick fix to this unrealistic situation, as the Big Daddy should be the protector, would be to have the Little Sister walk past the Big Daddy so that the Big Daddy will be able to guard her back.


I personally think it'd be more "automated-looking" if he did the same thing all the time. Allowing freedom in the protector role would give more personality to the BD, IMO.

[ComradeP]

or instead of doing all that work you could just drop a heavy object on them both.

It sounds more like we are trying to heist a casino rather than kill a little girl;)

Heavy objects will probably move slower, when moved, than lighter objects and can probably be dodged. I prefer "turtling".

If there's a casino in the game (there seems to be one), there's no doubt I'm going to heist it.

Quick, call in the team from Oceans Eleven.

That's actually a pretty nice pun.

[Renight]

Ok 1, Its a work in progress, and 2, Its not that unrealistic, its one little flaw, since the whole game is dynamic, it could just be a tiny little mistake, and besides, what if the big daddy went to see what was around that corrider?

[Tellurian]

As long as the BD is always close to his LS, it's okay.
Wether he protects her front or her behind, doesn't make that much of a difference, now does it? Danger could come from either end in Rapture.
(Oh the innuendo...)

[Da Bubs]

[QUOTE=ComradeP;1875]If there's a casino in the game (there seems to be one), there's no doubt I'm going to heist it.
QUOTE]

There probably will be one, it was supposed to be a capitalistic paradise, and gambling is the greatest seperator of fools from their money. that and the ads for it in the first video and one of the screenshots(I think)