Official outstanding issues - post here, it's what I read!

[Lovesick]

Just remember what Elizabeth said.


...don't get your hopes up.

Quite apt for this whole situation.

There was a meeting, yet the community gets no information about it. Our anger was conveyed... so what? Is anything going to be done about it? Actions speak louder than words, and 2k's inaction for 8 months is certainly speaking volumes.

[SpottedPattern]

Well well well I'm not surprised, why should I be, 2K are entirely inept, not only are you the butt of the PC gamer community's ire and ridicule, you're also a laughing stock amongst the gaming industry too.

Why ? here goes .....

2K Marin was a mistake, a bunch of junior developers handed too big a project for their first one, and it's been thoroughly and royally arsed up, and this mess is what I would guess is the first of many signs that the studio is on it's way out.

I've seen it happen countless times before and I would not be surprised if it happens again, sorry, but you reap what you sow, karma eh ?

That's not just my opinion, I had a meeting with one of the most senior people in the UK's gaming industry this morning and we chatted about this, it's an opinion we share.

For such a small new studio you should be working to ensure every little minute detail of anything you release works faultlessly so that the suits have no reason to try and snipe at you, nothing to pick you up on, and that will happen, it always happens, it's politics.

You've annoyed the PC gamer community, no in fact the gamer community both here and at large, and it's slippery slope from here on in, and from what I've heard and have read about your other releases it's continuing trend with poor flaky releases, as soon as you stop pulling your weight, the knives will be out and 2K Marin will be for the chop especially in today's present economic climate.

You've shot yourself in the foot countless times, Bioshock was such a success due to word of mouth, that works both ways and the bad of Bioshock 2 and your handling of it will be passed by word of mouth too, and apparently you're ignorant of this simple fact.

I doubt any of this will get a reply, I'm used to seeing the official mouth pieces of 2K only answering what is deemed safe to answer, and there's actually nothing above to answer in fact, so I will give you a question to answer, though I know it will be ignored, I wouldn't even be surprised if this post gets censored or deleted as a number of my posts have previously, the truth hurts.

Anyway my question, if I were you and I had nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of, etc. I would answer questions quickly clearly concisely accurately with no smoke and mirrors, no sales talk, no PR talk, NO BS, only the truth.

So why has it been that since about a week before the release of Bioshock 2, when the FOV/HUD issues were asked and the DRM issue was raised, why is it that I've not seen or read a single straight answer come from anyone at 2K when the question is about anything that is negative about Bioshock 2 or the customer's experience of Bioshock 2 ?

In fact don't answer that, the answer is already known by anyone who read's the official posts in this thread and on this forum, any answer will only be what I mentioned 2 paragraphs above.

While I have the time to ruminate, here is what I would compare 2K to : the complete muppetry of TV exec's, to illustrate this I will use the example of Firefly by Joss Whedon, an excellent series by someone who successfully brought Angel and Buffy to TV for many seasons.

So what do the TV exec's do ? they show the series out of order and wonder why the ratings are poor when the series’ overall story arc is messed up, and due to them the series get's pulled in spite of good reviews and a cult following.

This is not too far away from the complete mess that the handling of Bioshock 2 has been, clueless numpties in suits more than likely screwing things up and limiting what can be told to the community.

I've not even played the game due to the poor feedback I've had about it, my free time is limited so I try to use it wisely only playing games worthwhile, but I'm sick of seeing PC gamers being screwed over, so as someone who has the inside track on the gaming industry I'm happy to keep supporting the community here.

Anyway that's rather a lot of typing, it'll doubtless make no impact on 2K Marin, seems nothing said does, i.e. the past 8 months, but 2K have screwed the pooch and Bioshock 2, Mafia II, Civ' 5, etc. are it's 'Bar Steward' children all a bit fubar’d and needing to be taken outside and shot.

Fortunately Bioshock Infinite that I will play is being headed by Ken Levine, who has a clue and spine, unfortunately it should have been him that headed Bioshock 2 as he is well respected and thought of within the gaming industry as opposed to a bunch of virgin junior developers.

PS

[ancient]

You guys asked these questions over the weekend - you don't have to repeat them - I'm already working on getting you more details (and I don't have any timeline and I'm not going to make any promises, but I'm working on it.)


Your PC customers have literally been hearing "I'm working on it" and "we're working on it" for 8 months, only to be let down time and time again.


Sad but true :( We believed you, Elizabeth, whenever we heard 'this will be solved soon'.

Although, what I find particularly nasty, that Minerva's Den was coming to PC as of August 3, 2010... only to be buried with a simple "oops, we did it again" four weeks later.

I still can't shake the feeling this whole August 3rd 'also coming to PC' announcement was a deliberate gimmick designed not to scare existing Xbox 360 & PS3 customers on Minerva's Den launch day.

Yeah, we are so unprofitable :(

So much for being creative and subtle.

[ohstallion]

I'm not promising any more concrete answers of any sort - the update I made on Friday should be deemed final, so please don't expect something definite.

I just want to make sure no one is misinterpreting anything - that can happen with a busy thread.


how about this question - were the folks at 2K surprised by the reaction from PC users?

[tleloc]

Fortunately Bioshock Infinite that I will play is being headed by Ken Levine, who has a clue and spine, unfortunately it should have been him that headed Bioshock 2 as he is well respected and thought of within the gaming industry as opposed to a bunch of virgin junior developers.

PS

Pure gold.

[angrybeavers]

Hey kids! Back from being banned. Lesson learned! Never criticize. Simply accept it with a smile! I for one welcome our new ant overlords.

In other news, I talked to Elizabeth via email and over the phone for days attempting to get a satisfactory recompense for the lemon that is BS2, but no such luck.

2K has maybe a dozen games in its catalog. I own Bioshock already. I own Borderlands (without the dlc) from a Steam sale. I used to own Prey and Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the earth but sold them after beating them because they were *warning danger warning danger do not criticize things* , uh, because they were just so good others needed a chance to play them too.

There was nothing else in 2K's catalog I wanted at all. But hey ya know? I'd be willing to give 2K my copy of BS2 right now in return for a copy of Duke Nuke Fukever whenever it's released by gearbox in 2011. I was temporarily willing to consider trading in BS2 for GOTY borderlands since it came with the special early access to the DNF demo, but gearbox changed their mind and will release it to everyone, so trading a 60 dollar game (bs2) for a game I have already and a few 3 dollar dlcs is stupid.

Elizabeth refused. She refused a refund. She refused to let me trade in for a game not in their stock right now. No "pre-order for XCom or DNF or BS Infinite".

It was a choice between games I didn't want, or nothing.

So I'm out 60 bucks, BS2 is broken, and in return I get a copy of Civ 5. I don't want it. I chose Civ 5 because Elizabeth refused to budge on my choices. I asked a guy I know, who is a forum mod at a big ol' gaming site and knows Elizabeth and defended her as "don't kill the messenger", what he'd want. He chose Civ 5. So he gets Civ 5 and I get nothing.

No playable game I wanted, no refund, no new game I wanted.

If Elizab eth had been willing to trade me for DNF, or refunded me, or if by some miracle 2K had fixed Bs2, I would have remained a 2K customer.

Instead, I will refuse to buy 2K products from now on and make sure than any friends I know who think about buying 2K products are informed about the manner in which 2K treats its customers.

2K could have kept me as a customer if they'd shown some flexibility and remorse.

Have they shown either to anyone here?

[Kleetus]

I don't get some of you guys.

You're so outraged and upset at 2K, but you're still willing to support them by swapping your copy of Bioshock 2 for another 2K game?

All that does is send the message to them to keep treating us the way they do.

I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do, but if it were me, I'd be insisting on a refund.

Money is the only language they understand.

[Kalysm]

All that does is send the message to them to keep treating us the way they do.
...
Money is the only language they understand.

This is true. They learn no lessons if they see that we can be satisfied with a near-worthless bone after they screw up. I would much rather see 2K lose money and go so far under that they are forced to sell the Bioshock license to a more experienced and mature company that understands what the playerbase wants and goes to great lengths to satisfy it. The worst thing that any businessperson can do is make a mistake, then either deny that they are at fault or pretend that there is no problem at all. In my opinion, people who are unable to accept responsibility aren't worthy of a cent, and they should be blasted with all the forces of hell that rise up from their mistakes. Were they in another industry, those in charge of 2K would have been chewed up long ago, and at this point, I eagerly await the day when their shady business practices lead to their destruction.

I just want my ten dollars first...

[ancient]

Yeah, unless something miraculously happens about Minerva's Den.

- no day one purchases
- no extensive word-of-mouth campaigns
- no creative outbreaks that build the pre-launch hype for the game through blogging, video montage, etc. etc.

I personally did dozens if not hundreds of these. To get this? Was I naïve? Two dots on i?

There's something in the sea very tangible about the fan enthusiasm. Something that also has a substantial monetary value when multiplied by the "I recommend it!" factor. I'm sure the analysts at 2K know that all too well.

Loyalty is a mutual relationship.

[angrybeavers]

Insist on a refund all you want. Eliza eth will refuse.

Insist on getting the game fixed. 2k will refuse.

I took what I could get, and I'm going to give my friend Civ 5. He'll swap me something for it probably.

But Elizabeth will not refund. She will not give out vouchers for DNF or XCom or Infinite.

2K has no interest in giving customers what they want. They have our money now, and we have become merely an inconvenience to them.

And let's just be as inconvenient as we can. Email them, call them, bug them, pester them, make them send us out other games, etc.

Essentially, teach them how annoying pissed off customers can be.


Oh hey, I forgot to add, I emailed the president of 2K and he couldn't b e bothered to reply. They have our money, why treat us nice now?

[2K Elizabeth]

Insist on a refund all you want. Eliza eth will refuse.

Insist on getting the game fixed. 2k will refuse.

I took what I could get, and I'm going to give my friend Civ 5. He'll swap me something for it probably.

But Elizabeth will not refund. She will not give out vouchers for DNF or XCom or Infinite.

2K has no interest in giving customers what they want. They have our money now, and we have become merely an inconvenience to them.

And let's just be as inconvenient as we can. Email them, call them, bug them, pester them, make them send us out other games, etc.

Essentially, teach them how annoying pissed off customers can be.


Oh hey, I forgot to add, I emailed the president of 2K and he couldn't b e bothered to reply. They have our money, why treat us nice now?

Hey there -

This isn't really the place for this conversation (as it's likely going to derail the thread completely for the topic) but as a publishing office, I'm unable to offer refunds, unfortunately - that's something that has to be done where you purchased the game - it's something that isn't feasible.

However, since July when you came on the forums, I have worked with you and supported getting you to our top tier tech support and then one-on-one support with the team to help get workarounds for your issues and make sure that all your reports were sent directly to the developers. After that, I know we talked at length at the readily available products within the office that we could work together to help make your particular situation a bit better.

People aren't ever banned for criticism. They are banned for insulting and degrading remarks, or trolling, or spam, or breaking our rules.

We can't always make everyone 100% happy, but we do strive to listen and give personal support - and I know that you not only talked to our top tech team, but had the dev team help you out.

I am open to, and want, feedback on how to better improve the process from everyone on these forums - but please, do so without insulting and degrading comments.

Thanks.

[2K Elizabeth]

PS -

Jordan Thomas is anything but a virgin developer! Quite a bit of the 2K Marin team have quite the history in the games industry and a number of the core team came from 2K Boston/Irrational Games. :p

Ken Levine's an amazing guy, though - I don't think anyone can dispute that. But the 2K Marin team may be a newly formed studio, but they have some top notch people on the team.

[Kleetus]

We can't always make everyone 100% happy, but we do strive to listen and give personal support

OK, then fix the key-binding, vsync and the other multitude of isssues that plague the PC version.

[SpottedPattern]

PS -

Jordan Thomas is anything but a virgin developer! Quite a bit of the 2K Marin team have quite the history in the games industry and a number of the core team came from 2K Boston/Irrational Games.

The opinion still stands and is still abundantly valid, as evidenced by this complete cluster _ _ _ _ of a mess brought about by a bug filled game with apparently no QA, hell there's even bugs in there from the first game that were patched out of that version, the inability to patch those bugs in a timely fashion and also release DLC's across all 3 platforms at the same time, see Gearbox & Borderlands for how to do it properly, they are a mature cherry popped studio.


So the opinion still stands and is still abundantly valid.


2K Marin was a mistake, a bunch of junior developers handed too big a project for their first one, and it's been thoroughly and royally arsed up

[angrybeavers]

Hey there -

This isn't really the place for this conversation (as it's likely going to derail the thread completely for the topic) but as a publishing office, I'm unable to offer refunds, unfortunately - that's something that has to be done where you purchased the game - it's something that isn't feasible.

However, since July when you came on the forums, I have worked with you and supported getting you to our top tier tech support and then one-on-one support with the team to help get workarounds for your issues and make sure that all your reports were sent directly to the developers. After that, I know we talked at length at the readily available products within the office that we could work together to help make your particular situation a bit better.

People aren't ever banned for criticism. They are banned for insulting and degrading remarks, or trolling, or spam, or breaking our rules.

We can't always make everyone 100% happy, but we do strive to listen and give personal support - and I know that you not only talked to our top tech team, but had the dev team help you out.

I am open to, and want, feedback on how to better improve the process from everyone on these forums - but please, do so without insulting and degrading comments.

Thanks.

This seems like the perfect place to discuss it, seeing as this thread started as "list all the remaining issues" and turned into "pc support is ended, bye". From that point the thread became "customers can't get the game fixed, so now we want a just response".

Yes, I worked with tech support, and when tech support sat on their hands for weeks, you escalated it. But in the end, there were and are still game issues unfixed. Support has not and without a patch apparently will not be fixing them.

The devs may have helped, but without a patch, there are still issues. Repeated throughout this thread from its start.

As you can see, there are people here who want a refund. You yourself said that any questions regarding a refund should come to you via PM - you said that earlier in the thread. It took my post and your response here for it to become an official public statement that 2K will not refund. And gamers who waited months for a fix/patch after being told "we are working on it" are now long past being able to take a boxed copy back to the store. And Steam purchasers? They could try contacting Steam but they will likely tell the purchaser that game issues are 2K's fault not theirs.

It isn't a matter of making customers 100% happy, that is impossible in this case because even if the game were to be patched today and a playlist for MP made, customers still waited months and dealt with customer service doublespeak and stonewalling for months.

But here, 2K is making customers zero % happy. Offering only to swap the game (mailed at my expense) for a game I didn't want instead of being flexible and letting me get DNF from you months from now in return seemed to me to be unreasonable simply to be unreasonable.

I see no valid reason why it is not an option. Only that it's your apparently arbitrary "rules", rules which essentially ensure further customer dissatisfaction.

Were I 2K, i'd be more worried about the negative customer reaction to the poor and then cancelled PC support, and do everything possible to make customers forgive 2K and convince us to give 2K another chance. I simply cannot fathom otherwise.

I realize that the essentially lackluster sales of BS2 make it unprofitable to make further patches for. That's logical. Not the best way to keep customers, but understandable in a tight economy.

But I simply cannot understand 2K's insistence at thwarting the customer base at every turn.

[SpottedPattern]

I simply cannot fathom otherwise.

Unfortunately I suspect we never will, as anyone here from 2K seems inherently allergic to speaking the truth and giving straight answers, as far as business ethics go, honesty is the best policy and should be the only policy.

[ancient]

Jordan Thomas is anything but a virgin developer! Quite a bit of the 2K Marin team have quite the history in the games industry and a number of the core team came from 2K Boston/Irrational Games. :p

Ken Levine's an amazing guy, though - I don't think anyone can dispute that. But the 2K Marin team may be a newly formed studio, but they have some top notch people on the team.

We are running in circles :rolleyes:

From the creative point of view, Bioshock 2 is an excellent game, no doubt.

What we are constantly referring to - the technical quality how this game was implemented, including the weird 8-month bug fixing saga ("we are working on it") that fixed... almost nothing. The key mappings, HUD stretching, little sister dialogues (missing), vending machine sounds (missing) are likely to stay forever. And these are universal issues, not just configuration-specific or driver-specific glitches.

All this points to... that ordinary 2K Marin developers (who wrote the code in C#, environmental triggers using the script language, etc.) weren't that good compared to the top-tier creative minds behind the story, audio, level design, etc.

There's a serious disconnect and probably should be addressed by hiring more competent programmers.

Finally, to top that, a major Bioshock 2 story extension, aka Minerva's Den, has been decimated despite the initial announcement, that stated very clearly, white on black, it is coming to PC. I can't remember a case in recent history when a serious gaming company would flip-flop its platform choice 4 weeks before the launch date.

No doubt we are disappointed, hugely disappointed.

[FireyFate]

OK, then fix the key-binding, vsync and the other multitude of isssues that plague the PC version.

That's just crazy talk.

[DarkEmperor]

Finally, to top that, a major Bioshock 2 story extension, aka Minerva's Den, has been decimated despite the initial announcement, that stated very clearly, white on black, it is coming to PC. I can't remember a case in recent history when a serious gaming company would flip-flop its platform choice 4 weeks before the launch date.

No doubt we are disappointed, hugely disappointed.

And frankly we are just PLAIN ANGRY!!!!

WTFBBQ!?? Why did they make this half ass decision!?!??

Videogames are one of the ways we ESCAPE from all the B.S. and sociopaths out there in our Govt. and the world - and here we are getting the same old corporate scr*w you from 2K!

That's what makes Minecraft so much better than these AAA games - NOTCH wouldn't mess over his fan base just for a buck!

How do your coroporate masters sleep at night Liz? - Probably on a bed of money, huh? One day Americans aren't gonna put up with this treatment any longer - it's not what this country was intended to become!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[radios]

PS -

Jordan Thomas is anything but a virgin developer! Quite a bit of the 2K Marin team have quite the history in the games industry and a number of the core team came from 2K Boston/Irrational Games. :p

Ken Levine's an amazing guy, though - I don't think anyone can dispute that. But the 2K Marin team may be a newly formed studio, but they have some top notch people on the team. if what you say is true, then it must be the developers are so bogged down in other work, they couldn't make a PC patch for Bioshock 2 in 8 MONTHS??. you need to hire more developers then, pass it on to the management. problem solved.

[mysterd]

I've seen a lot of great games get support by their mod community:
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Arcanum; and especially Gothic 3 come to mind.

If Bioshock 2 PC could somehow find a PC Mod Community that would fix the technical issues, would 2K approve of them doing so and legally let them?

[Ziggletooth]

Funny thing... Theres a bug with trophies on the last borderlands dlc

This makes three problems now doesnt it?

1: Missed out a bioshock 2 rank trophy - that was solved with rebirth, had to rank up to 30 again and messed up my leaderboards status but thats not important, the trophy was solved

2: Unable to play the bioshock 2 dlc maps - how long has it been since the playlist was mentioned?

3: borderlands

Now I play alot of games I have 41 platinums to prove that, yet I have only ever had these issues to complain about

odd how they all involve 2k, or rather not odd at all... I don't have tech accounts for other companies.

How come you can't achieve a level of quality every other games company on the ps3 platform can?

[angrybeavers]

Hey how *about * those missing little siter siadlogues and animations?

That is the one issue the 2K techies never answered me on.

Elizabeth what's the tech take on that bug? Everything else you said we should contact tech for, and I have, but they never did answer me on that one.

And since we're out of probable patch land and wandering the Island of Individual Issues Taken up with Tech, could we hear from them what it is in "adaptive training" that makes it toggle on and off randomly?

Please. With sincerity.

[Rama1965]

Dear Elizabeth:

I am almost embarrassed to admit how upset and bitter I am over the canceled patches and DLC for BioShock 2. After all, it is only a video game, and there are far more important wrongs in this world at which to be upset. However, I can't think of any other games that have provided me with a more captivating experience and that have had such a rich story background. That so much apparent effort went into the creation of an engrossing story with so many little details bringing it to life, continues to amaze me.

After finally playing and completing BioShock earlier this year, I immediately went out and purchased BioShock2, eager to continue the Rapture experience. While I did very much appreciate some of the game-play improvements and did manage to complete it, the experience was seriously marred by some significant bugs that caused me quite a few "hair-pulling" moments of frustration. Fortunately, my wife was out of earshot and couldn't hear the resulting bouts of swearing. To be honest, I can't think of any recent game that I've played that had so many obvious issues that have remained unresolved for so long and now, apparently, will never be resolved. I spent so much time patiently returning to these forums and the various BioShock 2 websites looking for patches and any news of worthwhile DLC, that I cannot help but be extremely frustrated and angered by recent developments.

I can't properly express how much eager anticipation I felt waiting these past few months for Minerva's Den, looking forward to one last visit to Rapture before enduring the long wait for Columbia.

No rational person can expect any company to go out of business trying to support a product, but with 750,000 reported sales of BioShock 2 in February alone across the two console platforms, I can't help but feel that these decisions are motivated by the costs and anticipated profits for each platform. I am willing to concede that 2K may not recoup the costs of releasing additional patches and publishing the promised DLC, but that assumes that only the cost of doing something is worth considering. I learned a long time ago that it is equally important to consider the cost of not doing something. In this case, I really don't think that much weight has been given to how much this decision could "cost" 2K in the long term in terms of customer loyalty and negative publicity. Perhaps it was considered, in which case I believe that it was seriously underestimated.

I think that any game developer or publisher that ignores or takes for granted the PC gamer audience may not fully appreciate the demographics of PC and console gamers. I have no idea if there are any studies, but in my experience, most PC gamers are professionals in their 20s, 30s and 40s with a substantial amount of technical experience to whom family, colleagues and peers turn to for recommendations, advice and assistance on all matters computer related. Whereas, with all due respect, console gamers tend to be teenagers or less computer-savvy adults of all ages that are somewhat more unwilling to invest in serious PC gaming hardware. Therefore, I would suggest that the average PC gamer wields a certain amount of influence that should not be underestimated.

Many have stated their anger because promises were broken, but I would have been just as upset if there hadn't been any promise to provide PC patches or DLC that has been made available to users on other platforms. As your customers, we deserve to have what is broken fixed and we deserve to be treated equally. If any company is not willing to properly support their games on the PC platform, then they should stop making PC games and no longer waste the time of those of us that prefer not to use consoles for our gaming experiences.

I have little hope that any words will change this outcome, nevertheless it feels good to put words to feelings. Truly, a sad day for PC gaming and hopefully not a sign of things to come.

[Relight]

...
I have little hope that any words will change this outcome, nevertheless it feels good to put words to feelings. Truly, a sad day for PC gaming and hopefully not a sign of things to come.

A very well thought out and well written post - I am a PC gamer as well, and I think that I pretty much share the same thoughts and feelings as you do on these matters. I'm glad you posted this in the community.

[Drez]

We can't always make everyone 100% happy, but we do strive to listen and give personal support - and I know that you not only talked to our top tech team, but had the dev team help you out.

How about trying to make everyone 25% happy? Or 10% happy? Or even 5% happy?

I am 0% happy with the product I threw money away on, and I am 0% happy with 2k Games, and I am 0% happy with the way 2k has treated its consumers.

Is 2k suffering under the delusion that any of us are even remotely happy? I mean, yes, it's true that it is impossible to make everyone 100% happy, but it seems like a silly and obvious thing to say and isn't a valid excuse for making everyone 0% happy.

edit: Maybe this is a matter of perspective. Does anyone at 2k Marin/Games/whatever actually comprehend what it was like to be a consumer that preordered the PC version of the game? You throw the phrase "I understand" around a lot, but saying you understand and actually empathizing with us are two entirely different things.

Anyway, here's a rundown of how the last eight months have felt, more or less:

1) Ooh! Sequel to one of my favorite games. Preordered!
2) Bah! Numerous bugs! But I'm sure 2k will fix them.
3) Oh look! 2k is saying they will fix them!
4) Hmm, this first patch fixed a couple of things, but dozens of bugs remain. That's okay! They said there will be another patch.
5) Second patch...hmm, that's odd. The second patch did absolutely nothing. The thing it was supposed to do was already done in the first patch! Probably just an internal communication screwup, that's fine.
6) Third patch. Cool! Well...it seems to have broken a few things but a couple of things were fixed I guess. At least vendor sounds and a bunch of other bugs are going to be fixed soon, according to 2k!!!
7) DLC? Neat. Wait, it was on the disc already and this is just an unlock code? Shady...
8) More DLC? Well that's fine, at least it's not on the disc AND it is coming to the PC. Still waiting on those patches. At least Liz keeps saying they are coming!
9) Still waiting for patches. But hey apparently they are coming.
10) Cool, some...multiplayer DLC. Apparently the way it is designed doesn't let me use the maps very often but we've communicated this to Liz and it should be a trivial fix...I'm sure they will fix it soon.
11) New DLC should be here soon including the single player DLC! I'm surprised the Metro DLC wasn't fixed yet though. And those patches we've been waiting for...
12) 2k just announced that the new DLC will not be coming to the PC nor will we get any patches. Wow. What the holy &U*^?

Maybe my chronology is a bit out of order and I made this fictional guy sound pretty optimistic in 1-11 even though I was pretty bitter and pessimistic all throughout, if I'm being honest. I may have left some stuff out. Anyway, that's the gist from a PC consumer's point of view. It is a ludicrous thing to experience, especially when dealing with a big publisher and developer like 2k-anything.

What you and 2k need to understand is that we are not stupid. Many of us are programmers and have worked in design. Many of the needed fixes either were trivial or SHOULD have been, if BioShock 2 was competently designed. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix an HUD stretching aspect ratio issue. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix a looping sound bug. If it does, then your developers hobbled BioShock 2 together in a completely inappropriate way. I very much doubt that, so like everyone else I am completely confused at how these numerous trivial matters were not addressed after the third patch.

[ElitesamuraI26]

I'm actually abit disappointed with 2K right now for being unreasonably unfair to PC gamers for not releasing the DLC content that we were promised for and buying BioShock 2 was definitely a big fricking mistake. :mad:

[ancient]

1) Ooh! Sequel to one of my favorite games. Preordered!
2) Bah! Numerous bugs! But I'm sure 2k will fix them.
3) Oh look! 2k is saying they will fix them!
4) Hmm, this first patch fixed a couple of things, but dozens of bugs remain. That's okay! They said there will be another patch.
5) Second patch...hmm, that's odd. The second patch did absolutely nothing. The thing it was supposed to do was already done in the first patch! Probably just an internal communication screwup, that's fine.
6) Third patch. Cool! Well...it seems to have broken a few things but a couple of things were fixed I guess. At least vendor sounds and a bunch of other bugs are going to be fixed soon, according to 2k!!!
7) DLC? Neat. Wait, it was on the disc already and this is just an unlock code? Shady...
8) More DLC? Well that's fine, at least it's not on the disc AND it is coming to the PC. Still waiting on those patches. At least Liz keeps saying they are coming!
9) Still waiting for patches. But hey apparently they are coming.
10) Cool, some...multiplayer DLC. Apparently the way it is designed doesn't let me use the maps very often but we've communicated this to Liz and it should be a trivial fix...I'm sure they will fix it soon.
11) New DLC should be here soon including the single player DLC! I'm surprised the Metro DLC wasn't fixed yet though. And those patches we've been waiting for...
12) 2k just announced that the new DLC will not be coming to the PC nor will we get any patches. Wow. What the holy &U*^?

^^

Sad, funny and true.



What you and 2k need to understand is that we are not stupid. Many of us are programmers and have worked in design. Many of the needed fixes either were trivial or SHOULD have been, if BioShock 2 was competently designed.


Once again - correct.

Dear 2K, I am a software developer with ~10 years of coding experience. These fixes shouldn't be the rocket science if you got the code architecture right from the very beginning and were truly willing to deliver them.

I guess the code internals were so messed up, 2K simply decided to give up. But is it our problem? We are paying customers and you are a service provider. We should expect at least a minimum level of service quality. This is the most advanced market economy in the world, after all, where the consumer rights, at least theoretically, are respected and the market demands, at least on paper, are met.

But the biggest problem is the attitude. We did believe you for 8 months the fixes are coming, DLCs are coming... waited patiently and silenced other critics... "hey, the time is near", knowing the challenges of dealing with large masses of code ...only for us to be dropped from the boat so ruthlessly.

bye bye, PC customers... you are the step-children in this family; work harder, buy harder next time, earn your own food!

Heck, I alone would deliver these fixes after 8 months of work, and you are a full-blown company that assigns at least several people to this task.

It also speaks of... neglect. The family is by definition dysfunctional if some children (Consola and Consolis) get preferential treatment and other geek kids are put into the dark attic - doors slammed & shut.

No food, sorry.

in the house of upside down
cellar's is top floor, attic's ground

Sad but 2K family, that looked so promising just a few months ago... has just revealed its rotten core and the true attitude towards the customers. How ironic are the phrases: "we support PC", "we firmly stand behind our product" after recent demarches like this.

Finita la comedia.

Nothing will change, of course. No fixes, no Minerva's Den... If "There's Something In The Sea" was the high point of the Bioshock 2 journey, this systematic neglect of PC customers will stay in our memory as the absolute zero of this journey. But was it really necessary to end up like this?

The long-term damage has just begun... and they didn't live happily ever after.

...found is lost and lost is found

[Krakn3dfx]

Just saw a post about this on Kotaku.

I think it's hilarious that almost every 2K Published PC game in the past 2-3 years has gotten the short end of the stick in post-sale support, and yet people go into buying these games on the PC believing that maybe this time 2K will straighten up and fly right.

Here's what to expect as a PC gamer: Unless your 2K published PC game has 'Civilization' in the title, don't expect anything beyond the original game. No patches, no DLC. Anything you might get is because something slid through without anyone noticing before the door closed on that game.

See you for Bioshock Infinite.

[SpottedPattern]

The only way something is going to get done is if you get the biggest stick possible and hit 2K with, and that is LITIGATION.

Bearing in mind that the US is the most litigious society where the majority of posters on here are from and where this joke of a studio is based, I would suggest someone start action against the company for being stolen from, the product is not working, the DLC does not work as intended and you are not being given the reparatory service to have working products.

That I'm afraid is more than likely the only way a resolution will be gained.

[Mearl]

The only way something is going to get done is if you get the biggest stick possible and hit 2K with, and that is LITIGATION.

Bearing in mind that the US is the most litigious society where the majority of posters on here are from and where this joke of a studio is based, I would suggest someone start action against the company for being stolen from, the product is not working, the DLC does not work as intended and you are not being given the reparatory service to have working products.

That I'm afraid is more than likely the only way a resolution will be gained.

I'm not sure that would help. Their terms of licence are normally waterproof, so I gues it will be difficult to make a case in court.

[RaptureWillBeReborn]

How about trying to make everyone 25% happy? Or 10% happy? Or even 5% happy?

I am 0% happy with the product I threw money away on, and I am 0% happy with 2k Games, and I am 0% happy with the way 2k has treated its consumers.

Is 2k suffering under the delusion that any of us are even remotely happy? I mean, yes, it's true that it is impossible to make everyone 100% happy, but it seems like a silly and obvious thing to say and isn't a valid excuse for making everyone 0% happy.

edit: Maybe this is a matter of perspective. Does anyone at 2k Marin/Games/whatever actually comprehend what it was like to be a consumer that preordered the PC version of the game? You throw the phrase "I understand" around a lot, but saying you understand and actually empathizing with us are two entirely different things.

Anyway, here's a rundown of how the last eight months have felt, more or less:

1) Ooh! Sequel to one of my favorite games. Preordered!
2) Bah! Numerous bugs! But I'm sure 2k will fix them.
3) Oh look! 2k is saying they will fix them!
4) Hmm, this first patch fixed a couple of things, but dozens of bugs remain. That's okay! They said there will be another patch.
5) Second patch...hmm, that's odd. The second patch did absolutely nothing. The thing it was supposed to do was already done in the first patch! Probably just an internal communication screwup, that's fine.
6) Third patch. Cool! Well...it seems to have broken a few things but a couple of things were fixed I guess. At least vendor sounds and a bunch of other bugs are going to be fixed soon, according to 2k!!!
7) DLC? Neat. Wait, it was on the disc already and this is just an unlock code? Shady...
8) More DLC? Well that's fine, at least it's not on the disc AND it is coming to the PC. Still waiting on those patches. At least Liz keeps saying they are coming!
9) Still waiting for patches. But hey apparently they are coming.
10) Cool, some...multiplayer DLC. Apparently the way it is designed doesn't let me use the maps very often but we've communicated this to Liz and it should be a trivial fix...I'm sure they will fix it soon.
11) New DLC should be here soon including the single player DLC! I'm surprised the Metro DLC wasn't fixed yet though. And those patches we've been waiting for...
12) 2k just announced that the new DLC will not be coming to the PC nor will we get any patches. Wow. What the holy &U*^?

Maybe my chronology is a bit out of order and I made this fictional guy sound pretty optimistic in 1-11 even though I was pretty bitter and pessimistic all throughout, if I'm being honest. I may have left some stuff out. Anyway, that's the gist from a PC consumer's point of view. It is a ludicrous thing to experience, especially when dealing with a big publisher and developer like 2k-anything.

What you and 2k need to understand is that we are not stupid. Many of us are programmers and have worked in design. Many of the needed fixes either were trivial or SHOULD have been, if BioShock 2 was competently designed. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix an HUD stretching aspect ratio issue. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix a looping sound bug. If it does, then your developers hobbled BioShock 2 together in a completely inappropriate way. I very much doubt that, so like everyone else I am completely confused at how these numerous trivial matters were not addressed after the third patch.

You just summed up EVERYTHING I feel right now. Even the timeline. I was sooooooooooooooooooooo optimistic, and now I is anga-reh!

[ancient]

I'm not sure that would help. Their terms of licence are normally waterproof, so I gues it will be difficult to make a case in court.

Rapture Metro Pack could actually be a case.

This is a non-playable DLC they charged money for. You can't take money for the non-functioning product, according to the consumer laws. Either fix it or refund it.

[SpottedPattern]

I'm not sure that would help. Their terms of licence are normally waterproof, so I gues it will be difficult to make a case in court.

It's American, the place where a dosey old women successfully sued McDonalds for not labelling the container of a cup of coffee as holding hot contents when she tipped it on herself, the land of litigation, anything is possible.

[SpottedPattern]

Off topic admittedly, but I find it highly ironic and amusing that this articles' been posted across at Irrational Games : http://irrationalgames.com/insider/ten-things-our-favorite-pc-games/ => Ten Things: Our Favorite PC Games ,
"As game developers, we love a wide range of games–and no single platform spans a wider range than the PC."

[angrybeavers]

Maybe we cut out the middleman from now on, and just buy empty boxes from 2K? They can fire their developers and just sell us a box with no functional game included in it.

[Kleetus]

You can't take money for the non-functioning product, according to the consumer laws.

You can, until someone does something about it.

Unfortunately, most people don't take games seriously enough to spend the time or money doing so.

Anyway, what really ticks me off is that the bugs present in Bioshock 2 are the exact same bugs in the original Bioshock, and then some.

That means:

1. The programmers are incompetent.

2. The programmers are indifferent to their customers.

3. The programmers are insane (isn't the definition of insanity repeating the same things and expecting a different result?).

None of these three are a good look.

And yet, we have Elizabeth and 2K telling us that they are proud of their work, stand behind their products and that they listen and take us seriously. :rolleyes:

[zealous010]

I'm on the xbox so I only have trouble with the big sister music loop, lack of vedning machine noise, and sometimes the little sister dialogue doesn't play, other then that I have no trouble with the game. I feel really bad though for PC users and I'm miffed that the Vending Sounds will not be fixed, and a Metro Map play-list would have been awesome BTW.

I really cannot fathom how a company that stares at code all day could not fix the tiniest things (vending sounds and big sister music loop, among other things) within an 8 month period and at the end of that 8 month period cuts off its PC users from DLC. It utterly baffles me.

I really think that 2k should adopt ArenaNet's policy for Guild Wars 2 for its future products. Whenever someone asks "When will it be out?" the answer Anet always gives is "When it is ready.". They have stated that they won't even do a Beta until it is as polished as they can get it without players trying it out and to me that is fine. Please give me a polished/finished product, take your time, I CAN wait. I'd rather have to wait an extra 6 months to a year for a polished product then a buggy one. Even then I expect some bugs, they happen, just make sure you fix them in a timely and correct manner and keep me informed on progress, good or bad, I can take any news.

[63jax]

It's American, the place where a dosey old women successfully sued McDonalds for not labelling the container of a cup of coffee as holding hot contents when she tipped it on herself, the land of litigation, anything is possible.
Nice comment i give you a 10.USA is a bored country so it could be possible. A country that made Jedi an official religion tell much about it...:)

[GnomeFawkes]

Hey there everyone...

I've been lurking and watching the proceedings here for a couple of months now, and just wanted to throw this viewpoint out there. It may or may not be the case, but *shrugs* who can really say anymore?

Could it be, that the programming team has wanted very desperately to fix all the issues that we have put out there since the beginning, but the All-Seeing-Eye (that being their corporate masters) simply watched on then went "nup, not happening?"

All this treatment kind of reminds me of my time as a customer for Hellgate....and we all know how that turned out.

I want it known that im not a 2K apologist or anything like that. I'm just extremely frustrated and at the point of saying enough is enough and burying this game in a salt mine alongside E.T.

[mysterd]

Hey there everyone...

I've been lurking and watching the proceedings here for a couple of months now, and just wanted to throw this viewpoint out there. It may or may not be the case, but *shrugs* who can really say anymore?

Could it be, that the programming team has wanted very desperately to fix all the issues that we have put out there since the beginning, but the All-Seeing-Eye (that being their corporate masters) simply watched on then went "nup, not happening?"

All this treatment kind of reminds me of my time as a customer for Hellgate....and we all know how that turned out.

I want it known that im not a 2K apologist or anything like that. I'm just extremely frustrated and at the point of saying enough is enough and burying this game in a salt mine alongside E.T.

No matter the reasons and all, all I know is 2K Publisher and 2K Marin are NOT bringing the last two of the DLC content here to the PC and are not going to fix many of the issues the PC gamers are having w/ the PC version.

I hope they seriously change their mind. I've missed out on ALL the Bioshock 2: Pay-To-Play-DLC's and would be interested in a Bioshock 2: Complete Edition - especially if the last two Bioshock 2 DLC's came to the PC. Now, eh - I'm just not too interested.

Game dev's and publishers keep giving gamers more reasons to not buy their game at $40-60, upon release - releasing often what is Alpha or Beta-in-a-box. Then, they pump out so many DLC's, hard to keep-up w/ it all. Then, in some cases - PC version doesn't wind up w/ all the content found on console version. You know, I'll just wait for price-drop on Original Edition and/or wait for the eventual re-release w/ everything Ultimate Edition (if they even release one) - especially when it's from a company like 2K.

Life goes on.

[boxcarbully]

what project are the developers of bs2 working on (so i can make sure not to buy it)?

[Monolithic]

what project are the developers of bs2 working on (so i can make sure not to buy it)?

They are currently working on XCOM, out in 2011.

[Seishuku]

I'm really surprised to see that people even still come here. I dropped by to see if something had actually been done about BS2 MP after giving up on it months ago, but I see that the exact same problems and now some new ones haven't been fixed yet. And maybe its just because I was scrolling through posts really fast, but did I see some problems with Borderlands now too? Lol. I'm sorry 2K, you made good games at first, but the future does not look bright at this point. I already gave up on DICE, and now I think I'm gonna give up on you guys as well. Its been nothing but complaining and hoping for far too long, I just can't bring myself to buy another 2K game if I have to risk going through all of this again. *Shrugs* Seeya guys.

[ElitesamuraI26]

I've really lost faith on 2K games for not promising us the DLC and frankly I'm not really buying any more 2K games and not in a million year so screw you 2K. :mad:

[Goldenboy]

Hi Elizabeth,

Would you kindly provide an update regarding getting this announcement and information onto the Cult of Rapture, stickied in the Bioshock 2 root forum, and/or some other high profile and high visibility location?

Potential customers thinking of purchasing this game need to be made aware of this information in order to make an informed and fully considered decision. They need to understand that if they choose to purchase the game, the state it is presented in by the publisher now represents the final state of the game, and that no support is being provided to acknowledged bugs and other inconsistencies. Due to the extenuating circumstances as detailed in this thread - this extends beyond the regular statements provided in the EULA, and that this decision may affect their experience with, and even the ability to use the product being offered.

By making false statements regarding this product, (such as have already been pointed out in this thread, regarding HUD and aspect ratio, and the upcoming availability of additional content "Minnerva's Den"), 2K seem dangerously close to knowingly misrepresenting their product, misleading customers and engaging in deceptive conduct. I can only speak for consumer law here in Australia when I say all of these conditions are fiercly protected by our Consumer Protection and Trade Practices Act - I believe I am safe to assume similar laws exist elsewhere.

I understand End User License Agreement and/or Terms of Service Agreements are written to protect corporations with limited liability against the final condition of the product being offered, but by burying this important information in a thread in the forums, and not highlighting it as an official announcement to your consumer base, while your offical news and announcements point of contact still advertises features that dont exist and content that will never be released, you ARE misleading customers.

Please have your corporation make the morally (if not legally) required decision to print this information in a place where potential customers can easily find it, so that people know exactly what they are getting if they choose to purchase this product.

[Goldenboy]

None of the above speaks for the more intangible customer loyalty and advocacy towards your company, which in my opinion has been irrepairably damaged by the decisions that have been made. So on an individual level, I'd like to formally express my regret, immense disappointment and my personal assurance that I will advise absolutely every relevant person who is interested in purchasing any future product published by 2K Games of the experiences we have.... endured during your clumsy abandonment of your PC gaming customers.

Sincerely.

[Relight]

I agree with Goldenboy.

The official site is the best place for this information to be clearly posted, since fans and gamers who don't regularly read the forums may not otherwise find this information (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1232996#post1232996).

[FireyFate]

I agree with Goldenboy.

The official site is the best place for this information to be clearly posted, since fans and gamers who don't regularly read the forums may not otherwise find this information (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1232996#post1232996).

For sure... what if someone, like me, has a PS3 and a PC. They might go to the Cult of Rapture page, which is the official information center, and think that the PC version is equal to the console versions...

It definitely is not. Right?

[SpottedPattern]

Hi Elizabeth,

Would you kindly provide an update regarding getting this announcement and information onto the Cult of Rapture, stickied in the Bioshock 2 root forum, and/or some other high profile and high visibility location?

Hi Goldenboy

I wouldn't hold your breath, it's completely pointless, as clearly anyone even remotely related to 2K are entirely and terminally useless and do not know how to help with this matter.

Euphemistically I've been banging my head against a brick wall for the past ~2 weeks in threads and via PM's attempting the equivalent of hammering rubber nails into said brick wall, in fact hammering rubber nails into a brick wall would be a lot easier than making 2K realise they're on thin ice from a legal stand point and are for all intents and purposes morally bankrupt by misleading consumers and misrepresenting their shoddy product.

All you'll get back in response is meaningless platitudes and BS, which is evidence enough that the 'ties' are tight on what can be communicated to the community, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if there is a gag order on communicating anything meaningful which is indicative, in my experienced opinion, that things are worse than I thought.

In all honesty if 2K wish to commit commercial suicide more fool them for being so bluntly and abundantly stupid.

I suspect this post will garner misplaced indignation, but you, 2K, have no basis on which to plead even the smallest mote of innocence in light of how much you've screwed the game and the consumer on this.

2K reminds me of a saying "Genius has limits, stupidity is limitless", which brings me to something more succinct a colleague said "2Klueless"

PS

[angrybeavers]

That was pretty nail on the head, but I wager they'll ding you for it.

If 2K took the time and energy used in chiding people for being angry and snarky and rude at 2K for screwing over their customers, and used that energy to fix the game, then there wouldn't be people all angry.

[SpottedPattern]

That was pretty nail on the head, but I wager they'll ding you for it.

If 2K took the time and energy used in chiding people for being angry and snarky and rude at 2K for screwing over their customers, and used that energy to fix the game, then there wouldn't be people all angry.

Thanks, and there should be no reason for me to be dinged, though I stand to be corrected, I've not insulted or degraded any one person specifically, I've rather aptly tarred them all with the same brush.

[Drez]

Hey there everyone...

I've been lurking and watching the proceedings here for a couple of months now, and just wanted to throw this viewpoint out there. It may or may not be the case, but *shrugs* who can really say anymore?

Could it be, that the programming team has wanted very desperately to fix all the issues that we have put out there since the beginning, but the All-Seeing-Eye (that being their corporate masters) simply watched on then went "nup, not happening?"

All this treatment kind of reminds me of my time as a customer for Hellgate....and we all know how that turned out.

I want it known that im not a 2K apologist or anything like that. I'm just extremely frustrated and at the point of saying enough is enough and burying this game in a salt mine alongside E.T.

See, this is exactly what I don't care about. I don't think we, as consumers, really need to investigate specifically where 2k went wrong. I am wholly uninterested in that except perhaps as a curiosity.

But the why doesn't matter to me. I hold 2k Marin accountable. They can internally point fingers wherever they like but none of that matters to me.

I also don't care if everyone at 2k Marin had the best intentions or not.

I think everyone is wasting their time delving into the specifics and I think that honestly sends the wrong message to 2l Marin and the rest of the publishers out there. I don't care why 2k Marin did what they did.

All I care about is that I bought a relatively-broken, falsely-advertised product and I expect(ed) to have the product fixed.

That is really all I care to concern myself with as a consumer. Especially now that 2k Marin has shown me how it feels to be spit on as a consumer that actually gets involved in the community. Eight months of being strung along like a yo-yo? Never again.

[darkeyes9090]

Not posting this on the official site shows the lack of integrity with this company. Fine, you choose to fail at your job, or to put out a good product and then make excuses for it and mislead your consumers. At least stop misleading future potential customers.

What is your excuse for not doing this post haste?

[SpottedPattern]

What is your excuse for not doing this post haste?

There is no excuse, 2K are just ......................... (insert your own expletive, linked with theft, fraud, etc.), either that or ...........

Actually there is no OR, there is no excuse why this hasn't been broadcast to the wider public, it should be errata'd on any site selling the piece of half cooked junk.


Though not to resist temptation, there is an OR and that is to use this whole mess as an excuse to stone wall the community further to blag even more time on top of the 8 months to fix bugs, port DLC's, etc. and then release it all in the future and pretend they listened, and things have changed at 2K, BLAH BLAH BLAH and then try to pass themselves off as saints and try to rake in the hero fan boy worship, if that is indeed the case then this has blown up in their face. But that is the only reason I can even remotely see as to why there is no official announcement on Cult Of Rapture or to r/etailers.

[Jakkaru]

Wait a minute here. I thought the "big patch" was actually being worked on, hence the delay because we are all non-programmers and the such.

How does one abandon something that they worked on??....unless it wasn't being worked on at all.

So Liz, for 8 months are you saying that it wasn't worked on at all???
If it was, release what you have then.

[angrybeavers]

They can't. Since they made the mistake of going with GFWL, they have to pay to release patches.


Elizabeth, I notice unsurprisingly that you haven't answered why we never heard from tech support about the little sister dialog glitch. Every other issue you tell us to talk to tech support, I talked to them on this and never got an answer since everyone at 2k swore there was a patcxh coming to fix things, which was apparently untrue, so now why not tell us what 2k found about it so we can fix it without you?

Been waiting awhile. Not happy.

[2K Elizabeth]

They can't. Since they made the mistake of going with GFWL, they have to pay to release patches.


Elizabeth, I notice unsurprisingly that you haven't answered why we never heard from tech support about the little sister dialog glitch. Every other issue you tell us to talk to tech support, I talked to them on this and never got an answer since everyone at 2k swore there was a patcxh coming to fix things, which was apparently untrue, so now why not tell us what 2k found about it so we can fix it without you?

Been waiting awhile. Not happy.

I believe you and I talked at length about the various issues you were having with the game and everything that tech support couldn't help with directly or provide a workaround was reported to the dev team to investigate - same goes for the issue you speak of.

[SpottedPattern]

Unfortunately unless the Organ Grinder gets on here to answer questions you're just getting nowhere, as pleasant as it occassionally is to deal with official community people they are at the end of the day just 'mouth pieces' doing their jobs, nothing more nothing less.

How about Jordan comes on here and answers a few questions ? face his adoring public <sic>.

Seems an adult thing to do.

[angrybeavers]

I believe you and I talked at length about the various issues you were having with the game and everything that tech support couldn't help with directly or provide a workaround was reported to the dev team to investigate - same goes for the issue you speak of.

Tech never told me one way or the other. They never said it had to go to dev team, they never said they had a workaround, they simply never responded to me on this issue.


And I didn't bug them about it because we were promised a patch was coming.

So from what you're saying now, there is no workaround ? Since they never told me there was? And it xould only have been fixed by a patch? Which we will never get?

Suck.

Well, my copy of bs2 should be at your office today or tomorrow. I'll double check the tracking.

I await that copy of Civ 5. I will be giving it to my friend. I get nothing. Thanks for that. Thanks for nothing.

[2K Elizabeth]

Tech never told me one way or the other. They never said it had to go to dev team, they never said they had a workaround, they simply never responded to me on this issue.


And I didn't bug them about it because we were promised a patch was coming.

So from what you're saying now, there is no workaround ? Since they never told me there was? And it xould only have been fixed by a patch? Which we will never get?

Suck.

Well, my copy of bs2 should be at your office today or tomorrow. I'll double check the tracking.

I await that copy of Civ 5. I will be giving it to my friend. I get nothing. Thanks for that. Thanks for nothing.

In regards to the techs, that's because I took over the case and dealt with you personally - so I'm the one who talked to you! :o

If you want to talk about any one-on-one issues, please PM me - again, this place is for group conversation.

Thanks.

[RaptureWillBeReborn]

In regards to the techs, that's because I took over the case and dealt with you personally - so I'm the one who talked to you! :o

If you want to talk about any one-on-one issues, please PM me - again, this place is for group conversation.

Thanks.

Liz, can you please respond to Goldenboy's post, two pages back? I think it needs to be answered.

[ohstallion]

OMG, responses by 2K have been super lame so far. Where are these new 2K reps that Liz spoke about? Haven't seen them comment at all, they're probably sticking their heads in the sand like the rest of 2K. Be interested in hearing how they address the PC issues and the anger that have popped up in this forum and elsewhere (but more likely they'll just ignore it).


Location: Lametown.
Population: 2K

[SpottedPattern]

Liz, can you please respond to Goldenboy's post, two pages back? I think it needs to be answered.

Don't be daft .................. pertinent questions ARE never answered, now away with you, stop being so silly :rolleyes:

[angrybeavers]

In regards to the techs, that's because I took over the case and dealt with you personally - so I'm the one who talked to you! :o

If you want to talk about any one-on-one issues, please PM me - again, this place is for group conversation.

Thanks.

The whole group would like to know tech's answer on this bug, actually. No reason for us to go into extra steps where I PM you, tech gives me an answer, and I post it here, like I have done for the mouse issue.

So if Tech has an answer on this issue, that is, if they can solve it, please let us know. because they never responded to me on the issue. I only heard it was in the queue of things to be looked at for patching.

But perhaps they figured out a kludge and can tell us? Yes or no answer preferred.

[ohstallion]

The whole group would like to know tech's answer on this bug, actually. No reason for us to go into extra steps where I PM you, tech gives me an answer, and I post it here, like I have done for the mouse issue.

So if Tech has an answer on this issue, that is, if they can solve it, please let us know. because they never responded to me on the issue. I only heard it was in the queue of things to be looked at for patching.

But perhaps they figured out a kludge and can tell us? Yes or no answer preferred.


sounds like such a reasonable request... actually i feel like most of the recent posts asking for answers have all sounded pretty reasonable... so not sure why 2K refuses to answer them back in a reasonable fashion...


LAMETOWN!!!

[SpottedPattern]

.... this place is for group conversation.

Bearing in mind this is the thread that is suppose to be read the conversation is somewhat one sided ? i.e. just the community and the odd non-information 2K response, so as AngryBeavers says let's converse in this thread and finally get some answers.

(As an aside checking through the threads Liz is having to reply to 99% are all faecal messes of equalness to this one, nice to know 2K aren't just screwing BS2 fans over).

[ancient]

I guess this is their PR strategy.

To lure the complaints from the public into private messaging... only to bury the poor victim, who believed 2K can help, with very pleasant but vague answers and non-solutions.

There are universal PC issues out there (e.g. the multiplayer crash fiesta, a plethora of issues in the single player) that affect everyone and can only be solved by patches, the patches we won't get, so what's the point of private messaging?

And yet, when a person in another thread complained that Bioshock 2 is crashing while playing the game, what do we get? "Hey, PM me!" Duh.

This means what? The person will get a private patch? :)

We don't need the illusion - private messages. We need the substance - patches & the content that was promised and cut.

A textbox case how to handle the public relations disaster? I doubt it.

[2K Elizabeth]

Bearing in mind this is the thread that is suppose to be read the conversation is somewhat one sided ? i.e. just the community and the odd non-information 2K response, so as AngryBeavers says let's converse in this thread and finally get some answers.

(As an aside checking through the threads Liz is having to reply to 99% are all faecal messes of equalness to this one, nice to know 2K aren't just screwing BS2 fans over).

2K David and 2K Greg are our community managers. I'm around these forums more frequently these days (and sometimes during the evenings when there are important topics to check in on) but my primary duties over the past couple years have drawn me away from the forums. I'm around, but you'll usually only see me posting during certain instances. I'm lead on this, but if I'm not around, David can always help out.

[SpottedPattern]

2K David and 2K Greg are our community managers. I'm around these forums more frequently these days (and sometimes during the evenings when there are important topics to check in on) but my primary duties over the past couple years have drawn me away from the forums. I'm around, but you'll usually only see me posting during certain instances. I'm lead on this, but if I'm not around, David can always help out.

Well seeing as neither of them have so much as stuck a toe into this thread I find that hilarious, plus I bet you my house they have less to say than yourself, in fact I suspect the 3 of you could post another 10 or 20 pages in this thread between yourselves and still nothing pertinent or meaningful would come out, please carry on I could do with a good chuckle after the day I've had.

[2K Elizabeth]

Well seeing as neither of them have so much as stuck a toe into this thread I find that hilarious, plus I bet you my house they have less to say than yourself, in fact I suspect the 3 of you could post another 10 or 20 pages in this thread between yourselves and still nothing pertinent or meaningful would come out, please carry on I could do with a good chuckle after the day I've had.

They won't be in this thread - I'm working on this personally. However, the announcement I made is very clear and when I said you should deem the decision final, I really meant it.

[angrybeavers]

2K David and 2K Greg are our community managers. I'm around these forums more frequently these days (and sometimes during the evenings when there are important topics to check in on) but my primary duties over the past couple years have drawn me away from the forums. I'm around, but you'll usually only see me posting during certain instances. I'm lead on this, but if I'm not around, David can always help out.

I have never, ever seen a post from either of these persons.


They won't be in this thread - I'm working on this personally. However, the announcement I made is very clear and when I said you should deem the decision final, I really meant it.

So why did you tell us about the meeting where you told the BigWigs about how angry the community was?
For that matter, you never did tells us anything about their response. Unless this is it. "Yep folks, sorry you bought the game, no patch, end of story."

And now, i ask again, can we get a community-wide answer on whether or not there's a kludge for the busted Little Sister audio/animations? All you have to say is "Yes, and it's X" or "No there is not". No marketing talk, just yes or no.

[Relight]

I have never, ever seen a post from either of these persons.

Not that this is really relevant, but these guys are definitely around... 2K Greg has 457 posts and 2K David has 153 :D

[ancient]

However, the announcement I made is very clear and when I said you should deem the decision final, I really meant it.

Should we all head to Mafia II, Civilization V, X-COM, Duke, The Line forums to announce this happy news to everyone? :D

Don't expect patches unless you buy hard enough so that we can pay GFWL licensing fees?

But is it really our problem? We were always the proponents of Steam, we were against GFWL, we knew the problems it causes. Yet, why do we, Bioshock 2 PC community, have to suffer for 2K's own wrong management decisions?

Reputation? Long-term loyalty? Doesn't mean anything, I guess, when making these calculations.

There was a huge controversy about DRM features for PC that likely affected the early sales. But again, is it our problem? When 2K could have easily used Steam to get efficient DRM for free, without sparking the hate waves and potentially lost sales.

The Steam lesson is learned, as is evident with Mafia II & Civilization V. The hard way. But I would imagine a different attitude towards Bioshock 2 on PC, and probably some willingness to invest into the long-term success of the franchise, from "we stand behind our product" mantra.

[choco]

The amazingly superb support for Halo: Reach shows this sorry affair for what it really is. 2k shoulda saved the extra development millions on the tacked-on multiplayer and made a campaign that actually worked. Its not like UE3 is unsupported, its the most used middleware engine in the industry.

Will Infinite have a pointless, dead within 3 months multiplayer added? Somehow I doubt.

[radios]

I have never, ever seen a post from either of these persons.



So why did you tell us about the meeting where you told the BigWigs about how angry the community was?
For that matter, you never did tells us anything about their response. Unless this is it. "Yep folks, sorry you bought the game, no patch, end of story."

And now, i ask again, can we get a community-wide answer on whether or not there's a kludge for the busted Little Sister audio/animations? All you have to say is "Yes, and it's X" or "No there is not". No marketing talk, just yes or no.2K Elizabeth has been working VERY hard for 8 MONTHS trying to get detailed answers, she just needs more time!. Bioshock 1 worked very well, so i imagine something VERY serious happened with the development of Bioshock 2 that has the development team absolutely stumped as to how to fix it!. although they'll never admit that!. and THAT is why the patch is taking so long. 99.9% of the games made today can be patched in less than 2 weeks, but the code for this game is so groundbreaking, that it's going to take a VERY long time to fix!. personally, i'd much rather have Bioshock 2 based on Bioshock 1 code, with new content, rather than rewriting the WHOLE game, it would have been MUCH easier to patch!!.

[AK Downfall]

2K Elizabeth has been working VERY hard for 8 MONTHS trying to get detailed answers, she just needs more time!. Bioshock 1 worked very well, so i imagine something VERY serious happened with the development of Bioshock 2 that has the development team absolutely stumped as to how to fix it!. although they'll never admit that!. and THAT is why the patch is taking so long. 99.9% of the games made today can be patched in less than 2 weeks, but the code for this game is so groundbreaking, that it's going to take a VERY long time to fix!. personally, i'd much rather have Bioshock 2 based on Bioshock 1 code, with new content, rather than rewriting the WHOLE game, it would have been MUCH easier to patch!!.
with that staement imagine how long a patch for Bioshock Infinate will take OMG years probably to get the patch out O.o

[Drez]

2K David and 2K Greg are our community managers. I'm around these forums more frequently these days (and sometimes during the evenings when there are important topics to check in on) but my primary duties over the past couple years have drawn me away from the forums. I'm around, but you'll usually only see me posting during certain instances. I'm lead on this, but if I'm not around, David can always help out.

Liz, to be blunt, you have done very little to help this community.

I don't mean that as a personal insult against you. It is just a simple fact. Perhaps that is the nature of having your hands tied and being thus unable to provide anything but either stonewall silence or bad news for all of eight months. I am willing to personally give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you are in the unpleasant position of trying to mitigate the gigantic disaster that the publisher you work for created. So I don't blame you personally, but you have not "helped" us at all. I have been here since the very beginning and I think it is a slap in the face to call anything anyone from 2k has communicated to us here "helping out."

So, for the love of god, please stop pretending that there ever has been anything approaching "help" on this forum or that there ever will be. Maybe you or some of the tech support folks that were here in the first 2-3 months guided specific people into getting their completely unusable game into a state that is as broken as the rest of ours (though technically "usable"), but the facts remain: BioShock 2 was broken to begin with, BioShock 2 remains broken, and BioShock 2 will always be broken. My timeline some posts ago was meant to illustrate that we, as a community, have never been helped in any way.

What have you done to help? In what way can Greg or David "help out" in a way that you haven't, or what function of yours are they meant to replicate that supposedly helps us out here?

I don't mean to be mean or rude or tactless but this kind of response is flabbergasting. 2k Marin must think we are literally retarded, in the medical sense, to think we would eat up any more of this "helping out" blather. It certainly felt like "help" when you claimed you communicated the issues we raised to you to the developers (and there were hitches there too - remember how I mentioned the HUD stretching to everyone before patch 1 even came out, if memory serves, and you stated publicly and privately that it was communicated to the dev/patch team, but then you admitted after the third and final patch was out that you actually didn't understand the issue and thus it was never actually communicated to your dev/patch folks? Remember that?) Anyway, it felt like "help" when you were communicating these issues to 2k Marin, but in the end, none of those issues were fixed anyway. So all of your supposed help is vapor as far as I'm concerned. It never happened.

Also, it shouldn't be OUR JOB as CONSUMERS to explain to you or the developers that work in your company what is wrong with your product. There shouldn't be anything wrong with it in the first place, but I guess ever since high speed internet became a reality, widespread reliance on post-release patching was sure to follow. Anyway, our relationship to 2k Marin/Games/whatever as consumers should be to make a purchase and use the product. That's it. We're not your beta testers and we're not your quality assurance team. It may go with the territory of being a PC gaming consumer nowadays - an unfortunate byproduct of having very little recourse as consumers - but the sheer number of issues with BioShock 2 coupled with the fact that they will never be fixed despite eight months of promises just make the whole thing comically absurd.

This whole situation is a total disaster from every possible angle. None of you has ever helped this community in any way.

[THe NoMaD]

What's update 1.04 and why has the U.S. players not recieved it? Been trying to connect for ages to Some from my friends list.

[Kleetus]

We were always the proponents of Steam, we were against GFWL,

What's this "we"? Speak for yourself.

There are plenty of people who like GFWL, and plenty who don't.

There are plenty of people who like Steam, and plenty who don't.

And there are plenty who don't like either.

There is no "we" or universal consensus.

[Drez]

2K Elizabeth has been working VERY hard for 8 MONTHS trying to get detailed answers, she just needs more time!. Bioshock 1 worked very well, so i imagine something VERY serious happened with the development of Bioshock 2 that has the development team absolutely stumped as to how to fix it!. although they'll never admit that!. and THAT is why the patch is taking so long. 99.9% of the games made today can be patched in less than 2 weeks, but the code for this game is so groundbreaking, that it's going to take a VERY long time to fix!. personally, i'd much rather have Bioshock 2 based on Bioshock 1 code, with new content, rather than rewriting the WHOLE game, it would have been MUCH easier to patch!!.

I assume you are being sarcastic (with the word "groundbreaking" thrown in there), but let's assume you aren't:

I frankly don't care if a meteor smashed into the 2k Marin headquarters and left nothing but a smoking crater. I am still entitled to a working product, or a full refund (which is, apparently, impossible as a Steam consumer - you buy it, and that's that. There's apparently no such thing as defective software).

Remember the giant ash cloud in Europe caused by the Eyjafjallajökull Volcano in Iceland that grounded flights for a week? The airlines were financially responsible for caring for the passengers, despite a gigantic (1.7b Euro) loss in revenue from something entirely out of their hands. Because, even though it wasn't actually the airlines' fault in that case, their involvement with the consumer was to get them from Point A to Point B. From the consumer's perspective, the reason the airline is unable to do so isn't relevant, whether it is the airline's fault, or if it is Thor's Mighty Fist.

Not even Act of God is a valid excuse here. But let's be honest, this is all 2k's fault. No Act of God prevented them from releasing a properly working game, or barring that, proper fixes - like the ones they promised all along. The game shouldn't even have been released in this state in the first place. This is why I'm uninterested in any explanations from 2k. There is no acceptable excuse.

[Kleetus]

Bioshock 1 worked very well, so i imagine something VERY serious happened with the development of Bioshock 2 that has the development team absolutely stumped as to how to fix it!.

Wait....what? :eek:

The same bugs present in Bioshock 1, which were patched, are present in Bioshock 2 (and then some extra bugs for good measure).

You have the world at your fingertips, next time do some research, or don't post about something that you obviously know little about. :rolleyes:

[Monolithic]

Wait....what? :eek:

The same bugs present in Bioshock 1, which were patched, are present in Bioshock 2 (and then some extra bugs for good measure).

You have the world at your fingertips, next time do some research, or don't post about something that you obviously know little about. :rolleyes:

He was being sarcastic...

[radios]

Wait....what? :eek:

The same bugs present in Bioshock 1, which were patched, are present in Bioshock 2 (and then some extra bugs for good measure).

You have the world at your fingertips, next time do some research, or don't post about something that you obviously know little about. :rolleyes: yep, Bioshock 1 had bugs, but well before 8 MONTHS, it was patched to the point where i don't remember any bugs remaining, for me, at least. the point is, when i played Bioshock 1, for me, it was bug free, and enjoyable, Bioshock 2, on the other hand, crashed randomly, but regularly, and was a real pain to play because of that. and 8 Months later, it STILL isn't patched!. so you see, i DO know about it!. another point is, WHY is Bioshock 2 taking MUCH MUCH more time to properly patch than Bioshock 1?. i really think 2 k Elizabeth has been trying to get these answers, but either knows, and isn't allowed to say, or the management is keeping her out of the loop. in any case, the people that buy these games WILL remember how they are treated, and spend their money accordingly. if you look at the views on this topic, a HUGE number of viewers are watching how this unfolds..

[angrybeavers]

2K Elizabeth has been working VERY hard for 8 MONTHS trying to get detailed answers, she just needs more time!. Bioshock 1 worked very well, so i imagine something VERY serious happened with the development of Bioshock 2 that has the development team absolutely stumped as to how to fix it!. although they'll never admit that!. and THAT is why the patch is taking so long. 99.9% of the games made today can be patched in less than 2 weeks, but the code for this game is so groundbreaking, that it's going to take a VERY long time to fix!. personally, i'd much rather have Bioshock 2 based on Bioshock 1 code, with new content, rather than rewriting the WHOLE game, it would have been MUCH easier to patch!!.

Why does she need more time? She said it already, the final answer is in, no more patches for us PC folks, we're up a creek without a paddle.

Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic.

Still want an answer on the Little Sisters issue. I want to know if there's a kludge fix from Support or if we're just up a creek since they won't patch. See, if they can kludge it, I might get a cheap discount copy of BS2 and play it. I sent my copy back to Elizabeth in trade for a game I don't want, but if they can kludge that I might get a remaindered copy and try it.

By the way, Elizabeth, tracking says the game was delivered.
Delivered, October 18, 2010, 11:53 am, NOVATO, CA 94949

[ancient]

There are plenty of people who like Steam, and plenty who don't.

Check old DRM-related mega threads ;) circa January - February 2010.

Also, there's a consensus GFWL causes more issues than Steam does. Plus, the licensing part.

[Kleetus]

Check old DRM-related mega threads ;) circa January - February 2010.

Also, there's a consensus GFWL causes more issues than Steam does. Plus, the licensing part.

That doesn't make it "we" or a consensus, unless you've actually asked every single gamer here.

[SpottedPattern]

They won't be in this thread - I'm working on this personally. However, the announcement I made is very clear and when I said you should deem the decision final, I really meant it.

Well evidently the organ grinders are too cowardly to allow the 'right' information to be released to the community and consumers so we're stuck having to put up with the HAPPY SNOWFLAKES on really short leashes.

In short 2K you are a bunch of totally and utterly useless UNICORNS, especially 2K Marin for releasing a broken game in the first place, with faults still in it from the first game, how much of a no-brainer mistake is that and then to spend 8 months being entirely unable to patch these minor issues, and then to release a broken MP DLC and then give up porting DLC's for no real reason.

I say again 2K Marin are a bunch of junior developers who were given a project way too big for them, or equally I wouldn't be surprised if that was intentional to just cash in as cheaply as possible on the success of Bioshock 1.

PS

[angrybeavers]

So Liz, since tech stopped replying and you say to PM you, what's thecorrect answer for getting an answer (not a fakeout) on the Little Sister issue?

I want to know if there is a kludge or if the issue is unfixable due to 2K's great big dumping of any PC support/patching. I ask tech, no answer. I ask you, no answer.

Should I just ask a brick wall?

[SpottedPattern]

Should I just ask a brick wall?

That'd be the same one I've been banging my head against and hammering rubber nails into ? .............. you may as well as you'll probably get a better answer than from anyone at 2K.

[2K Elizabeth]

So Liz, since tech stopped replying and you say to PM you, what's thecorrect answer for getting an answer (not a fakeout) on the Little Sister issue?

I want to know if there is a kludge or if the issue is unfixable due to 2K's great big dumping of any PC support/patching. I ask tech, no answer. I ask you, no answer.

Should I just ask a brick wall?

Hey there -

I know that you and I have talked about this issue at length already and I believe I've already emailed you as well as posted here about this. For every one of your issues, if it was not already resolved by tech or when you spoke to the dev team, there isn't a workaround or fix for it.

If you would like additional support, we can go down that route again and see if there's anything else we can help you with, since it seems there's still a question about whether you think there can be a workaround. We're always happy to revisit an issue.

[antfilm]

Hey there -
We're always happy to revisit an issue.
What and just look at it and say it's broken????

[angrybeavers]

Hey there -

I know that you and I have talked about this issue at length already and I believe I've already emailed you as well as posted here about this. For every one of your issues, if it was not already resolved by tech or when you spoke to the dev team, there isn't a workaround or fix for it.

If you would like additional support, we can go down that route again and see if there's anything else we can help you with, since it seems there's still a question about whether you think there can be a workaround. We're always happy to revisit an issue.

The only discussion I had about this specific issue with tech was when I reported to them a complete list of bugs I was having. It was not resolved by tech nor did dev talk to me about it. Was I just supposed to magically know that them not responding at all to me meant "no fix available"? Is that what no response even means? I wasn't told anything one way or the other.

Since you say everything under the sun in this thread was reported to tech, then tell us what their response on the issue was. My email folder's wiped clean, no record of any responses on it.

I await, and await, and await, and await, a straight answer on this. It's simply amazing that I can't get a simple honest straightforward answer to the simplest question from 2k. It's led me to believe 2k has something to hide!

[2K Elizabeth]

The only discussion I had about this specific issue with tech was when I reported to them a complete list of bugs I was having. It was not resolved by tech nor did dev talk to me about it. Was I just supposed to magically know that them not responding at all to me meant "no fix available"? Is that what no response even means? I wasn't told anything one way or the other.

Since you say everything under the sun in this thread was reported to tech, then tell us what their response on the issue was. My email folder's wiped clean, no record of any responses on it.

I await, and await, and await, and await, a straight answer on this. It's simply amazing that I can't get a simple honest straightforward answer to the simplest question from 2k. It's led me to believe 2k has something to hide!

Hey -

I'm going to go back and look into your support emails with me and I'll let you know what I find there - I think that trying to have this conversation on the forum is not a great way to go about things as we're taking an already extensive conversation and trying to revisit it without any of the old info at hand - that's never a good way to go about support. :o

When you reported that complete list of bugs to the techs, it made its way to me and we talked about it and I sent it to the devs and let you know about that - the devs are the ones to look into fixes but yes, unless a fix is reported back to you, there isn't one.

This conversation has completely derailed the larger topic and I don't want this thread to turn into a conversation about a single issue - so again, please, if you guys need one-on-one support, contact me so we don't bog down this thread.

[JimVel]

Please also consider this problem on ps3:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85868

[angrybeavers]

This is rather disturbing. Liz can't find the record of my reporting the issue, but that shouldn't matter if it was known already. There's a half dozen threads about it, but it doesn't seem that Liz has info on any potential fix from tech.

What was the point of reporting issues here anyway? To have them looked into for patching. Or at least kludging, when the patch was cancelled.

Did anyone here make an official report to tech support on the Little Sisters issue?

Talking about solutions to the remaining issues is in no way derailing the thread, Liz. The whole point of the thread is to collect , for solution, the remaining issues. This issue is not unique to me. Therefore it's best to post answers where all can see rather than insisting we each individually come to tech to fix it.

[mwinter77]

As I see it there is only one outstanding issue - the fact that you completely abandoned all PC support.

How can you still have this statement on COR:

"We have finalized the notes for the next BioShock 2 patch, releasing on August 3rd for 360 and PS3. The PC patch is still getting some final touches - when finalized, I'll be posting a full note list and release date here, as well!"

what a total LIE - even on the day it was posted obviously - "final touches" what a total load of BS!

along with no statement of 2K's current position - no patch or anything else for PC ever.

Ripped off by 2K once - never again!

Now off to play Fallout NV - a game that I know will be supported!

[angrybeavers]

Apparently this technical support thread is not the place for discussion of technical support issues, so when I get an answer from Tech re: a kludge, or, more likely, a fan kludge, I will announce it here.

[2K Elizabeth]

This is rather disturbing. Liz can't find the record of my reporting the issue, but that shouldn't matter if it was known already. There's a half dozen threads about it, but it doesn't seem that Liz has info on any potential fix from tech.

What was the point of reporting issues here anyway? To have them looked into for patching. Or at least kludging, when the patch was cancelled.

Did anyone here make an official report to tech support on the Little Sisters issue?

Talking about solutions to the remaining issues is in no way derailing the thread, Liz. The whole point of the thread is to collect , for solution, the remaining issues. This issue is not unique to me. Therefore it's best to post answers where all can see rather than insisting we each individually come to tech to fix it.

That is not what my email said to you. To everyone: Please refrain from using this thread as your personal support portal. This thread is not for that.

As for the Little Sisters issue, it has been reported, however, in the list of issues you sent to tech and CCed me on, it was not there. If you, or anyone else here, would like one-on-one support, please contact us so we can get you in email or on the phone with someone who can walk you through the process.

[Kleetus]

"The PC patch is still getting some final touches - when finalized, I'll be posting a full note list and release date here, as well!"

That's false advertising and illegal.

I really hope someone sues their arse off.

It just shows what contempt, indifference and laziness they have towards their customers.

Imagine someone buying the game based on that statement, then later finding out that there actually was no patch coming. :mad:

[fluffy-rabbid]

erm Liz... sorry to be a pain but us eu lot have recieved a update 1.04 yesterday... however and this happened last time as i had to email your tech guys, we now cant play anyone in the usa... do you know when you are going to update them? as it is a real struggle to get a game now, it took me a hour and 30 mins and got a game with all lvl 5s, so wondering if you could ask someone... also this patch it fixed the rebirth issue iv been told

[Drez]

That is not what my email said to you. To everyone: Please refrain from using this thread as your personal support portal. This thread is not for that.

As for the Little Sisters issue, it has been reported, however, in the list of issues you sent to tech and CCed me on, it was not there. If you, or anyone else here, would like one-on-one support, please contact us so we can get you in email or on the phone with someone who can walk you through the process.

What is this thread for? I've asked this three or four times now.

The thread title suggests that this is where we should post outstanding issues with the game. You have indicated that no issues with the game will now ever be fixed, and that this decision is "final." What purpose does this thread have?

I'm not trying to be snarky. Maybe a little bit, but I really would genuinely like to know what the point of this thread is at this point. We've communicated dozens of bugs and other issues, these bugs and other issues will never be fixed, the end. Nothing we have ever communicated has ever come to anything, so clearly 2k Marin doesn't care what we have to say and at this point there is nothing of value for 2k Marin to communicate to us, so I would really like to know what kind of discourse you expect in this thread.

[Goldenboy]

Hi Elizabeth,

As our only point of contact on this issue I respectfully ask you to please provide me the courtesy of reading, acknowledging and replying to my post a couple pages back:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1232966&postcount=546

Thanks and regards.

[2K Elizabeth]

Hi Elizabeth,

As our only point of contact on this issue I respectfully ask you to please provide me the courtesy of reading, acknowledging and replying to my post a couple pages back:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1232966&postcount=546

Thanks and regards.

I've read your post - and I'm definitely making sure people are getting this information.

Also, to answer Drez's question, I started this thread to consolidate a couple threads down that were unwieldy while this decision was still not finalized. Now that it is finalized, the purpose of the thread has changed - but I think it makes more sense to keep this one open rather than create an entirely different thread. We try and limit locking of threads unless it's absolutely necessary, but for this issue, I want one place to post about it.

If you guys think changing the thread title would help clarify, I'll most certainly be amenable to that - but I thought it might be confusing.

[Goldenboy]

I've read your post - and I'm definitely making sure people are getting this information.

Thanks for your reply - can you please clarify who "people" are?
Are you referring to potential customers/members of the public? Or colleagues within 2K Games?

[Drez]

I've read your post - and I'm definitely making sure people are getting this information.

Also, to answer Drez's question, I started this thread to consolidate a couple threads down that were unwieldy while this decision was still not finalized. Now that it is finalized, the purpose of the thread has changed - but I think it makes more sense to keep this one open rather than create an entirely different thread. We try and limit locking of threads unless it's absolutely necessary, but for this issue, I want one place to post about it.

If you guys think changing the thread title would help clarify, I'll most certainly be amenable to that - but I thought it might be confusing.

Your post does not indicate what the "new purpose" of this thread actually is, which is what I was asking you, and I am still unable to glean the purpose of this thread from anything you or anyone else has said here. The thread doesn't seem to have any clear purpose, so claiming that people are "derailing" the thread with this post or that comment seems a bit weird to me, unless I am literally the only person here that just doesn't get the point of the thread.

Changing the thread may be appropriate for the sake of clarity, but I wasn't really making that suggestion, I am simply asking you what the purpose - this "new purpose" - of the thread actually is. I am not trying to be an ass, I honestly and literally do not understand what this thread is supposed to facilitate or encompass at this point.

[Goldenboy]

I honestly and literally do not understand what this thread is supposed to facilitate or encompass at this point.

It's currently serving as the only official location where the decisions 2K have made regarding ongoing support of Bioshock 2 are detailed.

In a less official way its pretty much the only thread left open allowing people to express their thoughts and feelings towards the matter as well as being able to try and seek some answers from 2K directly to this inexplicable decision that has been made.

Based on the thread's title, people know that it's regularly reviewed by Elizabeth so whatever they choose to write has the best exposure to 2K.

[Drez]

edit: You know what, I don't feel like doing this anymore. I'm so unbelievably angry at this whole situation that I can't even think about BioShock or 2k without literally feeling rage. I need to get the hell out of here before the anger actually becomes unhealthy.

[Relight]

Anyone who follows any of the major (and even some of the not-so-major) gaming sites will have heard this news, as it has been reported pretty much everywhere - although maybe not always in the terms we think it should be.

Of course, that isn't everyone.

So one of the obvious concerns here is that the official site needs to convey this information. That is a concern that I support and I think that the Cult of Rapture site is misleading the way it is, because it does state that vending machines voices will be fixed, and it does state that both Protector Trials and Minerva's Den are coming to PC.

I don't know about all the legal stuff in the US, but as far as I'm concerned, until something is posted on Cult of Rapture, it's false advertising.

Cult of Rapture site is a completely different entity from the forums.

If you announce a product on one entity (website), then cancel it, you must report the cancellation on the same entity as the announcement. It must be posted on the website, not just in the forums.

[63jax]

Elizabeth
Why do you keep this thread open if there is nothing for us (PC) you only give us false hopes. Just close it and make another and make a specification only for Xbox and PS3. I don't know how convenient is for you to stay here and argue with us, you know and we know that there isn't any good news for pc gamers, so it will be in your interest to close it. If you continue like this we can keep it forever, sometime it has to end, it's almost a year now...

[L_J]

That is not what my email said to you. To everyone: Please refrain from using this thread as your personal support portal. This thread is not for that.

As for the Little Sisters issue, it has been reported, however, in the list of issues you sent to tech and CCed me on, it was not there. If you, or anyone else here, would like one-on-one support, please contact us so we can get you in email or on the phone with someone who can walk you through the process.

I dont even understand the point of reporting bugs or support if you have said there is no patches what is support going to do? confirm that the game is defective?

Maybe you should explain to your shareholders that this is why piracy is so high because people wont pay for defective software twice , maybe if 2K did its job and actually support the PC community then you'd get the support back from the community but clearly your management clearly have the there heads in the clouds

[fluffy-rabbid]

erm Liz... sorry to be a pain but us eu lot have recieved a update 1.04 yesterday... however and this happened last time as i had to email your tech guys, we now cant play anyone in the usa... do you know when you are going to update them? as it is a real struggle to get a game now, it took me a hour and 30 mins and got a game with all lvl 5s, so wondering if you could ask someone... also this patch it fixed the rebirth issue iv been told

anyone able to answer the above?

[Magic17]

just noticed that fallout new vegas which came out yesterday. and having some bug issues......bethesda are releasing a patch prob by the weekend.......how come it takes them a few days to patch a game....yet 2k had taken around 8 months and then refuse to patch bio2????

[mwinter77]

just noticed that fallout new vegas which came out yesterday. and having some bug issues......bethesda are releasing a patch prob by the weekend.......how come it takes them a few days to patch a game....yet 2k had taken around 8 months and then refuse to patch bio2????

That is a good question - and the reason I am now playing that game instead of bioshock2 and also the reason I will not buy another 2K release!

[Erorrless]

just noticed that fallout new vegas which came out yesterday. and having some bug issues......bethesda are releasing a patch prob by the weekend.......how come it takes them a few days to patch a game....yet 2k had taken around 8 months and then refuse to patch bio2????
they know it has glitches and have been working on it before releasing the game. im not getting new vegas just like FO3 cuz its full of glitches

[vipe155]

they know it has glitches and have been working on it before releasing the game. im not getting new vegas just like FO3 cuz its full of glitches

You're missing out then, IMO. I played Fallout 3 for over 100 hours on PC, and will be getting New Vegas soon. The games are properly supported, extremely fun, and I only had a few non show-stopping glitches happen to me over that time. Red Dead Redemption does the same thing every once in a while.

A few glitches seems to be par for the course in open world games.

[Drez]

This is totally off-topic but I have New Vegas already and it is good. More in the spirit of traditional Fallout than FO3 was (which I liked a great deal, mind you).

It does have some fairly substantial glitches though, the primary one right now being the Steam Cloud glitch that has been overwriting new saves with older ones, sometimes from like four hours earlier. Talk about an lol situation.

[fluffy-rabbid]

anyone please this is a real issue.... eu has recieved patch 1.04 and now can not play anyone outside of eu as they have not recieved the patch.. when is the up date being shipped across the rest of the world?????

[Dante2040]

Since 2k obviously isn't willing to put too much effort into a game for the PC community... is it for sure that BioShock Infinite will be available for the PC?

[fluffy-rabbid]

well im not getting much help and im ps3

[IllusionOfLife]

Since 2k obviously isn't willing to put too much effort into a game for the PC community... is it for sure that BioShock Infinite will be available for the PC?

Nothing is certain yet, we're still at least a year and a half away from release on that game, but Ken Levine is known to be sympathetic towards PC gamers' cause so it'll likely be a safe bet to get that one for PC.

[Codex]

well im not getting much help and im ps3

Liz hasn't been online much today. I recommend that you either send her a PM or email her (2KElizabeth@2kgames.com). Unfortunately that's all I think anyone can offer you at the moment...

[Relight]

As far as I'm aware, Liz is out of the office until Monday the 25th - while I think she might still drop in briefly during this time, I wouldn't expect to hear a lot from her until she's back.

[cardboardvalise]

just noticed that fallout new vegas which came out yesterday. and having some bug issues......bethesda are releasing a patch prob by the weekend.......how come it takes them a few days to patch a game....yet 2k had taken around 8 months and then refuse to patch bio2????

bethsoft has been verry verrrrry good about patching. Very good. they may have left some lingering minor issues in games (fallout 3 and oblivion) but the game is playable without the fan patches, and they incorprated previous fan patches into their own! bethsoft rules.

2k however left us in the cold.

[wilk0r]

Almost 650 responses...

I smell some 'consolidation' on the horizon :D

[mwinter77]

An example of how a respectable publisher responds to their customers:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1123616-game-updates/

...and takes care of their products. Next day patch!

2K you really should pay attention to how your competition treats its' customers and try to learn something.

[Kalysm]

Oh boy. No posts today. Are we just getting too tired of this to keep pushing for some amount of closure? Kind of sad, but maybe that was their idea all along. Give us the PR talk until our nerd rage fades away...

[zealous010]

Oh boy. No posts today. Are we just getting too tired of this to keep pushing for some amount of closure? Kind of sad, but maybe that was their idea all along. Give us the PR talk until our nerd rage fades away...

That or we just don't care because we won't be buying a 2k product ever again and we are using time we could be on the forums to tell our friends/everyone that will listen, to do the same.

At least that is what I'm doing.

[mkramer19]

Hi all, I wish I were able to come here on better terms. I have followed this thread with interest over the past week, hoping to see a company that cares about the product they offer as well as their customers. Unfortunately this thread has shown that 2K cares about neither. Also, it appears that they have no concern of integrity, honesty, or even ethical business practices.

I put off my purchase of NBA2k11 last week to see how this played out, and I am glad I did. I bought prior 2k games, and was still hoping that they could return to the NFL. If this is the kind of random, ill fated support that will accompany their lies and misleading of customers, I want no part of it. After this fiasco, I will not purchase any current or future 2k games. Count me as one lost customer!

[radios]

to what happened with jowood games Gothic 3 and Gothic 3 Forsaken Gods, Gothic 3 had to be patched by fans, and Gothic 3 Forsaken Gods is so bad, it CAN'T be patched!. so 2K isn't alone. however, Jowood had serious financial problems, i recently found out. which is why they stopped patching those games!. they couldn't afford spending money on anything other than trying to make new games for more income!.

[Moldy Clay]

I started this thread to consolidate a couple threads down that were unwieldy while this decision was still not finalized.

Really, I don't buy that.

You started this topic 4 weeks ago, and then after 3 weeks broke the news.

I feel like it was finalized already.

[Zuzax]

An example of how a respectable publisher responds to their customers:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1123616-game-updates/

...and takes care of their products. Next day patch!

2K you really should pay attention to how your competition treats its' customers and try to learn something.
You learn a lot about the character of a company by how they react to a problem.

Fallout New Vegas has nearly as many launch bugs as BS2 did. However, Bethesda has already cranked out two patches and a third is in the works. They publish unambiguous updates (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1125221-please-read-from-the-teams-at-obsidian-and-bethesda/)from the game's Producer that touch on why things happened and what their short term plans are for resolution.

2K should study Bethesda's approach and take notes as to the more effective way to react to inevitable bugs and problems in their upcoming games (BS2 being a lost cause). And then actually assign resources to work on the bugs to fix them.

Stall and avoid is not a good customer relations strategy.

[2K Elizabeth]

Oh boy. No posts today. Are we just getting too tired of this to keep pushing for some amount of closure? Kind of sad, but maybe that was their idea all along. Give us the PR talk until our nerd rage fades away...

I'm actually not in the office - but I'm still here and reading threads.

to Fluffy: Can you email me at 2KElizabeth@2KGames.com about the issue you are having? We haven't updated anything - so I need a bit more info to investigate and make sure I understand what's going on!

[Kleetus]

Ken Levine is known to be sympathetic towards PC gamers

You mean like the draconian DRM originally used in Bioshock?

Ken Levine is a business-man, it has nothing to do with sympathy, it's what makes the company and shareholders money that ultimately matters.

[Drez]

You learn a lot about the character of a company by how they react to a problem.

Fallout New Vegas has nearly as many launch bugs as BS2 did. However, Bethesda has already cranked out two patches and a third is in the works. They publish unambiguous updates (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1125221-please-read-from-the-teams-at-obsidian-and-bethesda/)from the game's Producer that touch on why things happened and what their short term plans are for resolution.

2K should study Bethesda's approach and take notes as to the more effective way to react to inevitable bugs and problems in their upcoming games (BS2 being a lost cause). And then actually assign resources to work on the bugs to fix them.

Stall and avoid is not a good customer relations strategy.

Comparatively, New Vegas is much less buggy than BioShock 2 was at release, or is now. Remember, you are comparing a massive, sandbox-esque RPG to a first-person shooter. They may share a first person perspective, but while ideally there would be zero bugs before a game hits retail, I am more forgiving a game as robust as Fallout: New Vegas having a few bugs that are actually, actively being fixed without a bunch of stall-tactic doublespeak than I am for a first-person shooter like BioShock 2.

I'll grant that the BioShock series is more open than your average shooter, but it's nothing like Fallout: New Vegas. So even if the sheer number of bugs in New Vegas outnumbers those in BioShock 2, it is less buggy comparatively.

I am loathe to suggest that Bethesda, or any publisher/developer, has an "excuse" for releasing a buggy game, for any reason, but pragmatically it's bound to happen and I think the bugs in Fallout: New Vegas are within an "acceptable margin" considering the scope of the game, and as they are actually being ironed out promptly, I am somewhat more forgiving than in 2k's case - BioShock 2's bugs have never been properly addressed, never WILL be properly addressed, and were never within an acceptable margin to begin with.

2k Marin sucks. I can't wait to laugh at this disastrous bastardization of the X-Com franchise they are cooking up.

[mwinter77]

Comparatively, New Vegas is much less buggy than BioShock 2 was at release, or is now. Remember, you are comparing a massive, sandbox-esque RPG to a first-person shooter. They may share a first person perspective, but while ideally there would be zero bugs before a game hits retail, I am more forgiving a game as robust as Fallout: New Vegas having a few bugs that are actually, actively being fixed without a bunch of stall-tactic doublespeak than I am for a first-person shooter like BioShock 2.

I'll grant that the BioShock series is more open than your average shooter, but it's nothing like Fallout: New Vegas. So even if the sheer number of bugs in New Vegas outnumbers those in BioShock 2, it is less buggy comparatively.

I am loathe to suggest that Bethesda, or any publisher/developer, has an "excuse" for releasing a buggy game, for any reason, but pragmatically it's bound to happen and I think the bugs in Fallout: New Vegas are within an "acceptable margin" considering the scope of the game, and as they are actually being ironed out promptly, I am somewhat more forgiving than in 2k's case - BioShock 2's bugs have never been properly addressed, never WILL be properly addressed, and were never within an acceptable margin to begin with.

2k Marin sucks. I can't wait to laugh at this disastrous bastardization of the X-Com franchise they are cooking up.


100% Agree

[ceyx]

I apologize if someone else posted this, but there are just too many posts for me to read, and I have a disability which makes it difficult for me to concentrate.

For those of us who have an Xbox 360 and/or a PS3, as a sign of good faith, could 2K redeem itself by offering the console version for free to those with official copies of Bioshock 2? I bought mine through Steam, and am registered on Xbox Live.

[drprofessor]

I apologize if someone else posted this, but there are just too many posts for me to read, and I have a disability which makes it difficult for me to concentrate.

For those of us who have an Xbox 360 and/or a PS3, as a sign of good faith, could 2K redeem itself by offering the console version for free to those with official copies of Bioshock 2? I bought mine through Steam, and am registered on Xbox Live.

This. I hadn't even thought of that. It would be a healing gesture on 2k's part.

[fluffy-rabbid]

I have a ps3, and at the moment we cant get games if inside the eu, pc is not the only ppl who are having problems, 2k arent going to give free software away, the same in which they arent going to give ps3 or xbox users free map packs so we can all play the new maps...

[fluffy-rabbid]

Hi liz

i have sent you a email about my posts up above, could you please check it and let me know, because its becoming silly now not being able to play outside the eu......

[Kalysm]

Since the posts regarding complaints and issues have definitely begun to slow down, I believe it's time for 2K as a company to respond to us in some way. I don't expect much in the way of reimbursement at this point, but my faith in the company would be partially healed if there was at least some admission on their part that they messed up, regarding all platforms on which this game was published.

In addition, they should remove the map pack DLC from the stores if they are unwilling to offer it for free. As long as those map packs stay up, it will be a constant reminder to me that 2K has not learned anything from this situation, and they are actively attempting to take advantage of the consumer by accepting his money for a multiplayer experience with a faulty matchmaking system.

Until this DLC (or its price) is removed, I can guarantee that I will not be buying any more products made by 2K unless they are pre-owned. Even then, I will only enjoy the game as it was released, without add-ons. Being a purchaser of special editions and all DLC for games that I own, I imagine that money from consumers such as myself factors heavily into the profits from much of this overpriced content. Without giving my status in this situation too much credit, it is safe to say that my reaction and those from similar customers should be heard at the top of the corporate ladder. It makes me nauseous and irritated that I've been wasting my time checking these forums so often for DLC that I paid for, and it shouldn't be our responsibility to advocate for such a lengthy period of time for changes that would have been made long ago by a responsible company.

This is no reflection on Elizabeth. Her priorities are to provide damage control without promising results that aren't promised by her superiors or the devs. There is little else that she can do without risking her job, which would be too much for any of us to ask. All I hope is that the message from me, a once loyal Bioshock fan, will not fall on the deaf ears owned by people who serve, above all else, the almighty dollar.

[Kleetus]

Comparatively, New Vegas is much less buggy than BioShock 2 was at release, or is now.

I agree. I've put in over 50 hours on Fallout: New Vegas, and I've only had the odd crash here and there, and usually only after many hours of continous play.

Compare that to Bioshock 2, where the key-bindings are screwed up, Vsync has a mind of it's own, broken surround sound, missing voices etc.

You would expect Fallout: New Vegas to be far buggier than Bioshock 2 due to the massive number of quests, characters and environment.

And I have faith that Bethesda will eventually patch out most bugs in time, unlike 2K who just cut-and-run..... :mad:

[2K Elizabeth]

Hey guys,

I have a new thread updating you guys about this PC topic - head on over there to read the good news!

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1254568#post1254568