Official outstanding issues - post here, it's what I read!

[2K Elizabeth]

Hi guys,

As it's the weekend, I'm not working in the office so I haven't posted in a while, but I want to clear up a bunch of stuff that's being said here.

First off, anyone with the MODERATOR tag does not work for 2K Games. They are volunteers. If you have any issues with infractions, bans, moving threads or editing content, contact me. They are trying to make this place orderly and adhering to forum rules and please don't blame them for any of this. They don't have orders to hide or delete except to make sure insulting comments aren't posted.

That brings me to the next topic: We don't delete content unless it breaks forum rules, is insulting, or threatening. This thread may be closed some day if it turns into a complete hate fest that can't be salvaged, but not at all because people are unhappy or angry. Same with any other threads that have been moved - the aforementioned "War on 2K" thread appeared and was moved before I even logged on. I assure you, there's nothing nefarious going on there. Mods are trying to help keep this place clean and in order, as they have for years.

Finally, as to me and the team and 2K as a company, I'll be straightforward here. I've worked here since 2006 when I founded our community. Over the years, it's grown, and I'm proud to lead the division and have been part of this evolution with you. We now have two community managers (David and Greg) to help since I am often doing other things. Of course, I will always be here, so long as I work at this company, and it's never my goal to be evasive or manipulative or make anyone feel that I'm ignoring or hiding from anything. To my knowledge, I've answered every PM except for those in the last 24 hours. It's true that I'm not around as often as I used to be, but I do read all major threads and I'm aware of all the issues, both good and bad, for all our games. I run community and customer service, and it's my mandate and mission to be your advocate, liaison, and voice to the company. And that's what I do. What you guys write here is heard by the developers, and by the people in "corporate." The people who make these decisions do talk to me, and do listen to you guys through me. Sometimes, there is bad news. Sometimes, there is good news. We aren't out to hurt any of you - that's not our aim, and it never will be, and if I feel that this company is turning that way, you are right, I wouldn't work here.

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.

If you have any questions, email or PM me. I'll get to them definitely by Tuesday (and I'll try and check back in here tonight.) I just wanted to take some time to clear up misinformation here about our developing/publishing family and about some assumptions about myself. Love me or hate me, blame me or not - that's okay. But running this team is what I do, and being your voice to this company is something I love and am very fiercely proud of, even on Saturday afternoons like this one. I believe in honesty, and learning from you guys, and I'm going to keep doing that hopefully for years to come.

Thanks.

[Kleetus]

@ Monolithic, yes, but unfortunately, 2K is the publsiher.

[Kleetus]

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do.

So, you're proud of promising a PC patch for months, telling us it's almost finished, then abandoning it.

And you're proud of releasing buggy games, and then not fixing them?

[Zuzax]

...and being your voice to this company...You don't seem to have noticed, but your corporate overlords evidently can't hear you anymore.

My voice to 2K will be my wallet, and it will be telling 2K "you don't get any more of my money."

I'm sure many others will speak with the same voice.

[nbajammer]

Hi guys, as it's the weekend, I'm not working in the office so I haven't posted in a while, but I want to clear up a bunch of stuff that's being said here.

First off, anyone with the MODERATOR tag does not work for 2K Games. They are volunteers. If you have any issues with infractions, bans, moving threads or editing content, contact me. They are trying to make this place orderly and adhering to forum rules and please don't blame them for any of this. They don't have orders to hide or delete except to make sure insulting comments aren't posted.

That brings me to the next topic: We don't delete content unless it breaks forum rules, is insulting, or threatening. This thread may be closed some day if it turns into a complete hate fest that can't be salvaged, but not at all because people are unhappy or angry. Same with any other threads that have been moved - the aforementioned "War on 2K" thread appeared and was moved before I even logged on. I assure you, there's nothing nefarious going on there. Mods are trying to help keep this place clean and in order, as they have for years.

Finally, as to me and the team and 2K as a company, I'll be straightforward here. I've worked here since 2006 when I founded our community. Over the years, it's grown, and I'm proud to lead the division and have been part of this evolution with you. We now have two community managers (David and Greg) to help since I am often doing other things. Of course, I will always be here, so long as I work at this company, and it's never my goal to be evasive or manipulative or make anyone feel that I'm ignoring or hiding from anything. To my knowledge, I've answered every PM except for those in the last 24 hours. It's true that I'm not around as often as I used to be, but I do read all major threads and I'm aware of all the issues, both good and bad, for all our games. I run community and customer service, and it's my mandate and mission to be your advocate, liaison, and voice to the company. And that's what I do. What you guys write here is heard by the developers, and by the people in "corporate." The people who make these decisions do talk to me, and do listen to you guys through me. Sometimes, there is bad news. Sometimes, there is good news. We aren't out to hurt any of you - that's not our aim, and it never will be, and if I feel that this company is turning that way, you are right, I wouldn't work here.

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.

If you have any questions, email or PM me. I'll get to them definitely by Tuesday (and I'll try and check back in here tonight.) I just wanted to take some time to clear up misinformation here about our developing/publishing family and about some assumptions about myself. Love me or hate me, blame me or not - that's okay. But running this team is what I do, and being your voice to this company is something I love and am very fiercely proud of, even on Saturday afternoons like this one. I believe in honesty, and learning from you guys, and I'm going to keep doing that hopefully for years to come.

Thanks.


Could you kindly pass some of the negative responses here to the appropriate folks so that they can see the enormous mistake they are making (if you have not already done so)? While I am as irate as my colleagues here, I do not, and never have, held you personally accountable for it. Yes, I will agree your responses and timing could be better, but I also agree you did not make this call and you should not be held for that.

I don't think anyone is asking too much for the vending machine sounds to be fixed (especially since it was acknowledged the day before the game went on sale), or for a playlist. We just want to be able to play what we paid for, and for all intents we can't unless we want to run around by ourselves or play with friends. The public matches on these maps - the idea behind them being made and purchased - is nonexistant, and why anyone would think that's intended is beyond me. Also, the DLCs were promised to the PC folks (I only play on consoles), and I think that would have been a lesser issue for them if not for the fact that it said on the Cult of Rapture that they were "coming soon" for PC.

And it really has to be said - generally weekends arent days when youre on staff, so thanks for posting on the weekend for our benefit, be it pleasant for us or not.

[ancient]

...

The ultimate question: why Minerva's Den got cancelled for PC? Knowing it's a major narrative expansion of Bioshock 2 story?

[Quantumity]

This is why video game critics laugh at PC games that don't ship with mod/dedicated server support.

[Mr. Furious]

I planned on buying this game, and the Original Bioshock after seeing in-game footage and playing on a friend's comp, but now.....No. This is a slap in the face to ALL legitimate PC Gamers.

Piracy DOESN'T prevent developers from earning a profit. Most of the people who download games ALSO buy them because they like the game and want to support the developers. I can tell you from my own experiences that I've downloaded Left4Dead, loved the game WITHOUT even getting past the first mission, and then bought the game on e-Bay.

The gaming companies are still making money, they are still getting a PC fan base. But this type of attitude just serves to alienate PC Gamers and makes them think twice about a purchase.

This year, I've bought 3 games after reading reviews and forum posts. There are developers that I WON'T support for insinuating that ALL PC Gamers are "Pirates". Then there are others who show they care about customer loyalty and bend over backwards to keep it.

2K, offering something for months and then yanking it away like the proverbial carrot on a stick is NOT what I expected of you. You developed some really good games...but you dropped the ball.

No Sale. :mad:

[seriousmax]

Before I leave these forums forever I'd like to ask Elizabeth one more time why is it really necessary to always come up with the same replies?She always says she's proud for working for ''those'' ones and always says she's sorry that we feel this way.I have/had a major respect for Elizabeth because I always saw her as a nice person,ready to help us out.But I don't know...I must say that I am very angry right now not only because I feel I've been screwed during this whole amount of time but also because Elizabeth(even seeing what we're going through)can still stay calm and besides as she posted above,she still idolise the company she's working for.I'm not trying to be rude or show disrespect for her but seriously,after telling me that a patch is being worked on and now coming up with this one,makes me realise that everything was a huuuge lie,that the patch wasn't being worked on and that all the answers I got from her were just lies.So...I ask you this:How can we then not blame her for what's happening?She may not be a dev but as you see she still is very proud for being a part of the team and besides she's the voice of the company.Apparently it seems to me that her opinions aren't taken into account anymore as she sees what's happening around here and can't help us out.I agree though that 2k was once a good company but look:they start to screw everything up.I repeat that I'm not that angry for the unreleased dlc for the pc as I am for not having fixed the game.
I get the impression that they forget from where they come from and they forget that they are here,selling games because of us,because we paid them good money,and now that they're rich they thing they can just make whatever decisions they want because after all they are now huge.Well dear 2k,It's over.I'm not paying you anymore because you have to realise you can't play with people's feelings this way.I'm not buying any other 2k product until I know they are 80% bugs free.They were so bad intended that they weren't even able to fix at least the save errors ,the big sister music or the key bindings.With or without the rest of the bugs the game could have still been played but these 3 ones that are so annoying makes even the great experience just rubbish.So could have fixing these 3 items had cost you so much time and money not to release a solutipn for it?come on.Even the biggest idiot in the world could see you only wanted to be more ''economical''and have more money for yourself.As I said before I know your mentality already.No onee besides you Elizabeth has time to come up here to talk with us because as you said they are busy producing games,games that are made fast,released in the shortest amount oof time possible so that you can make money fast and easy.You don't fix the games afterward and so you think you'll go a long way.Well....from me you won't get any other money.You screwed me once but not anymore.Hope the other people won't become idiots that will buy a 2k game again before checking it out to see if it deserves to be bought.My final advice for Elizabeth will be:stop hiding information when it's not necessary and start listening to the community.You may say you ahve already done that but as you can see...this where your listening has brought us.We are disperate for having a full bug game that during a 8 months period was still unfixed buy a company that likes to be seen as '' a huge one,the best of all''.Dream on my darling,you are a big 0 in comparison to Rockstar.You don't know how to treat your customers.And one more thing:Aren't you ashamed 2k and Elizabeth for doing this to us?I'm not talking about dlc now,I'm talking for not fixing the game.You have NO EXCUSE,sorry.You know what Elizabeth 2k?Thanks for nothing.And do your job as you do it because you're on the right road.Just continue believeing 2k is great and that they're always be customers that are happy and unhappy and that you can't satisfy everyone.Of course you can't.But talking about things like those you did to us a day ago is beyond imagination.I don't think any other company did that as far as I remember:mad: .Well...this was what I had to say.Thanks again for nothing,and enjoy 2k forever.Oeraaaa.Vivaaa 2k :rolleyes:

[badsmed]

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.

Oh and what to be proud of, 2K Czech screwed up with Mafia2 and released half a game, Firaxis made Civilization V the most least liked and most buggy game in the series, and 2K Marin has really shown what incompetent hacks they are with repeating the same problems with Bio2 that were in Bio1, and not being able to give proper support for the game, and in the end giving the middle finger to PC gamers.

I surely understand why you so damn proud!:rolleyes:

[NickM]

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.

:rolleyes:

[cardboardvalise]

I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.
Thanks.

so does this mean you're proud of the end of 2K support of the pc release of bioshock 2 and not fixing the bugs with a patch and leaving the multplayer dlc without a playlist?

[Doomish]

Boy, everyone sure is mad. 2k certainly never promised anything and you should all feel ashamed for even thinking they did so. There was no promise. They said they would fix it and they didn't end up doing it. Oh well, get over it, the game still works and runs perfectly fine. Your experience will not change if the vending machines stay silent. The DLC may be unavailable to you, but in this day and age it's impossible to find or know someone who is not in ownership of an XBox 360/PS3.

I think everyone in this thread needs to calm down, take a step away from their keyboard, and deal with it, because you do not work at 2k and you cannot make decisions for them.

[SpottedPattern]

Re: doomish - to say it a lot more politely and eloquently than a lot of people will put it, please take your platitudes elsewhere, you have no basis on which to tell people how to behave, so kindly leave it.

Trust me that could have come out a lot more verbose and abusive, but it's not needed, people want to vented and display their ire, vitriole and displeasure at many many aspects of 2K's poor dire handling of this, they have the right to, whilst you do not really have the right to tell them otherwise, thank you.

[nbajammer]

Boy, everyone sure is mad. 2k certainly never promised anything and you should all feel ashamed for even thinking they did so. There was no promise. They said they would fix it and they didn't end up doing it. Oh well, get over it, the game still works and runs perfectly fine. Your experience will not change if the vending machines stay silent. The DLC may be unavailable to you, but in this day and age it's impossible to find or know someone who is not in ownership of an XBox 360/PS3.


I think everyone in this thread needs to calm down, take a step away from their keyboard, and deal with it, because you do not work at 2k and you cannot make decisions for them.

I think you can see from the entirety of this thread that the game does NOT work and run perfectly fine.

[Inhale/exhale]

I think I have a compromise solution:

2K should make the Metro map pack available as a free download on the PC.

*It eliminates the need for a playlist patch; the players still actively using multiplayer who haven't already got it will certainly download it.

*It will largely cost 2K nothing to do it, sales of the add on at this point are certainly minimal

*Its a nice make good for the community, given that the other issues are not being fixed/the single player DLC is not going to be sold.


No, it doesn't solve everything, and yes, if you already paid for the map pack download (as I did) you are kind of out of luck, but I would rather have the content usable than worry about my $10. Early adopters always end up paying more, its just the way life is.

I am definitely disappointed about not being able to play the Minervas den levels, but perhaps that content can be ported over and used as a prologue in Bioshock 3.

[Monolithic]

I think I have a compromise solution:

2K should make the Metro map pack available as a free download on the PC.

*It eliminates the need for a playlist patch; the players still actively using multiplayer who haven't already got it will certainly download it.

*It will largely cost 2K nothing to do it, sales of the add on at this point are certainly minimal

*Its a nice make good for the community, given that the other issues are not being fixed/the single player DLC is not going to be sold.


No, it doesn't solve everything, and yes, if you already paid for the map pack download (as I did) you are kind of out of luck, but I would rather have the content usable than worry about my $10. Early adopters always end up paying more, its just the way life is.

I am definitely disappointed about not being able to play the Minervas den levels, but perhaps that content can be ported over and used as a prologue in Bioshock 3.

I think we all know that's not going to happen. As for Minerva's Den as a prologue to BS Infinite, that's certainly not going to happen, since Infinite has no connection to BS or BS2. Not to mention that it's being developed by Irrational, not 2K Marin.

[nytiger73]

You don't seem to have noticed, but your corporate overlords evidently can't hear you anymore.

My voice to 2K will be my wallet, and it will be telling 2K "you don't get any more of my money."

I'm sure many others will speak with the same voice.

^^This^^

I won't take pot shots or low blows at Elizabeth or 2K Games. I am througly disappointed with how this played out. I truly appreciate the time that Liz takes to post here. I will also vote with my wallet. After Joe's Adventures for Mafia II (if it even comes out for PC) I will never purchase anything with a 2K logo on it again. This kind of thing has gone on since Bioshock 1. If you all remember, it took months for a patch to come out to address the problems that some people were having. I was one of the lucky ones, I don't recall having any issues. I was really looking forward to Minerva's Den and Protector Trials. Oh well...

[Mr. Furious]

@ Doomish: I don't have a PS3 or XBox 360. Most people can't afford to have the best of everything. We have jobs that take up our time and responsibilities to handle (i.e. House, Food, Family, Expenses). Having an XBox 360 and/or a PS3 is a luxury, not something to have because of this "day and age".

"Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's" and "A promise make is a promise kept".

[Mr.Big_Daddy]

Hey guys,
but due to technical and timing issues, these two fixes are not feasible.

What kind of lame excuse is that? You have had 8 months to fix these issues, and still absolutely nothing. It's sad to see that you guys are shafting PC owners now, but what else would we expect from a company that releases a broken game with DLC that is already on the disc and having a complete lack of knowledge on how to program for the PS3 properly.

What a sham this company has become, and to think post Mafia 2 (I actually liked the game, but the obvious neglect of the PS3 version left an all too familiar taste in my mouth - the same one I got with BioShock 2), that I actually had some respect left for the company. Oh how times can change..

If I was a PC owner I would be absolutely furious around this time, not only are they being neglected in terms of patch support (but wasn't everyone else before neglected in this respect?) they are missing out on arguably the best two BioShock 2 DLC's. Seriously, if you can make it for PS3 and 360, you can make it for PC. Give those PC owners the ability to play this DLC, outsource it to another 2k studio or something - dont alienate your fanbase as much as you currently have.

Oh but wait, there's obviously no point in trying to get through to 2k about this, they never will respond to this, just as the never, ever responded to my private messages about BioShock 2 issues I had been experiencing, and when they eventually did (only one or two times mind) they denied the issue ever was there, even though I provided concrete evidence to support it.

Wow. Just wow...


2k Elizabeth:
I do love 2K, and I'm proud of the work we do. I'm proud of 2K Czech, Irrational Games, Firaxis, and 2K Marin - and all the games they've made as our developers.

Say what? How can you be proud of a company that cannot program properly for a current generation video games console? Mafia 2 on PS3 technically was and still is a piece of rubbish, no 2k, the console is not to blame for the optimisation issues that led to you removing grass, blood pools and cloth movement, no 2k, it's not the tools you were using to bring the game about, no, it was the developers themselves.

For a games company that cannot even program grass into a game that is running on a system that is on par (or even better) that the 360's hardware, and to turn around with such a lame excuse as 'we did this in order for it to run better' - then this does not cut it, this is 2010, look back to games like Uncharted 2 which, while not open world as Mafia 2 is, show what the hardware is capable of, grass included.

2k Marin weren't any better as a matter of fact on the PS3 version of their game..

Anyway, this is kind of off topic as this thread is about BioShock 2, but you get the idea.

[Raven-sb]

Hi guys,

<snip> Of course, I will always be here, so long as I work at this company, and it's never my goal to be evasive or manipulative or make anyone feel that I'm ignoring or hiding from anything.
<snip>


Congrats Elizabeth,

For someone who has never had the goal of a) being evasive, b being manipulative, and c) make anyone feel that I'm ignoring or hiding from anything you've managed to achieve all three admirably. You must be very proud of yourself.

You know I can forgive the lack of DLC, that's something I can live with. It's the evasive and misleading statements you have made about a) The DRM on Bioshock 2, and b) the patch to fix the bugs within the PC version of Bioshock 2 that I can't forgive. Please note, I'm not blaming or holding you accountable for the decisions made on the DRM and lack of the bugfix patch. It's the misleading statements you have made on both those topics that I'm mad at you about and that's what I'm holding you accountable for. In both cases your excuse was exactly the same, no decision had been made at the time, and by the time a decision had been made, there was no going back, so I as the customer have to live with them whether I like it or not.


To the suits and decision makers at 2kGames. Your behaviour in both of these areas is something I'm going to remember next time I choose whether or not to buy another 2KGame, which is more and more looking unlikely.

Have a nice weekend,

Raven

[B17gunner98th]

Well since it isn't being released I am going to stop waiting and look at the ending of Minerva's Den. Even if it does get released there is no way I am buying it or any 2K product again. This and Mafia 2 had many many bugs.....Oh well other games will come about. Sorry that you had to be the bearer of bad news Elizabeth. To the brass upstairs try to play a video game once in a while to see why people like them and are making such a big deal about it. Better yet, play a game that actually gets patches like Fallout 3 and then play your game. The sense of playing an apocalyptic simulation is evident in the fact that just like in a real apocalypse people can only have empty hope and have nothing come to it. I will stick to Valve thank you, at least they like PC players and they even now have support for the Mac users even if I'm not one.

[rasetamere]

one more company that doesn't deserve any attention... well, not like their last games was good or anything...

i'm more sorry about 2K Marin and the CM / PR , because they get the bad Rep( and the angry comments ), and even if it's not a lot, they'll lose sales on their next game(s), and Take-Two can shut 2K Marin when they want ( when Xcom is at 100%(?), it's quite common those days )

[cardboardvalise]

Boy, everyone sure is mad. 2k certainly never promised anything and you should all feel ashamed for even thinking they did so. There was no promise. They said they would fix it and they didn't end up doing it. Oh well, get over it, the game still works and runs perfectly fine. Your experience will not change if the vending machines stay silent. The DLC may be unavailable to you, but in this day and age it's impossible to find or know someone who is not in ownership of an XBox 360/PS3.

I think everyone in this thread needs to calm down, take a step away from their keyboard, and deal with it, because you do not work at 2k and you cannot make decisions for them.

doesn't work fine for me. and I can't play the DLC maps without a playlist since not everyone has the DLC.

[Kleetus]

Boy, everyone sure is mad. 2k certainly never promised anything and you should all feel ashamed for even thinking they did so. There was no promise.

Saying they would fix it is a promise. :eek:

And even if they didn't promise anything, it's their responsiblity to fix the mess they released.

DLC I can understand, that's their choice to release it or not.

But bug fixes are another matter entirely, and the only reason they aren't interested is to save money. :rolleyes:

There's nothing uglier than greed.

[Electro-Bolt]

We will not be adding vending machine sounds into any version of BioShock 2 and we will not be adding playlists for the multiplayer DLC maps – we did look in to both options but due to technical and timing issues, these two fixes are not feasible.

I really think that the most important part of that message was telling us that 2k is incompetent. Telling us that their are "technical and timing issues" isn't an excuse for anything. This problem shouldn't have occurred in the first place, so making it sound like it's not 2k's fault that any of this happened and that it's due to "technical and timing issues" is frankly the least thought out argument that I've ever heard.

Let me explain myself:

2k completely ignored the fact that not everyone would buy the Rapture Metro Pack DLC. Let me remind you that if only one person doesn't have the DLC and they're in a lobby with players who have bought the DLC, no one will be able to play on the maps. This makes playing on the maps that we payed for extremely frustrating and time consuming.

Anyone could have predicted that this would be a major issue and that it would be next to impossible for players who bought the DLC to actually get the chance to play in public lobbies. But instead of actually coming up with a solution, 2k decided to release the DLC maps anyways and hoped that no one would complain too much about the issue.

For months now, players who bought the DLC have been hoping that something would be done to make the maps actually playable and we were mostly ignored. But with this recent news, it's clear that there will simply never be a reasonable way to play on the maps that we paid for.

This entire fiasco could have been avoided if 2k had actually thought before releasing the Rapture Metro Pack DLC and Elizabeth wouldn't have to be playing the role of a messenger who's getting shot at.

[zealous010]

"It was something awful what they had to do to that little girl to get the ADAM, but we didn't start this thing. Ryan did."

[Relight]

"It was something awful what they had to do to that little girl to get the ADAM, but we didn't start this thing. Ryan did."

So we're the little girls, ADAM is our money, 2K is they, something awful is the completely broken Rapture Metro Map Pack, but who is Ryan? ;)

[Relight]

2k completely ignored the fact that not everyone would buy the Rapture Metro Pack DLC. Let me remind you that if only one person doesn't have the DLC and they're in a lobby with players who have bought the DLC, no one will be able to play on the maps. This makes playing on the maps that we payed for extremely frustrating and time consuming.

Anyone could have predicted that this would be a major issue and that it would be next to impossible for players who bought the DLC to actually get the chance to play in public lobbies. But instead of actually coming up with a solution, 2k decided to release the DLC maps anyways and hoped that no one would complain too much about the issue.

For months now, players who bought the DLC have been hoping that something would be done to make the maps actually playable and we were mostly ignored. But with this recent news, it's clear that there will simply never be a reasonable way to play on the maps that we paid for.

Absolutely agree with everything you said.

I believe in being succint when quoting, but your post was so good I just had to quote nearly the whole thing.

I've never played a single match on the new maps.

:( :( :(

[Lovesick]

Okay, I've tried to read through this entire thread but I still can't completely understand.

Will a patch still be released at any point in the future?

[nbajammer]

Okay, I've tried to read through this entire thread but I still can't completely understand.


Will a patch still be released at any point in the future?

As of right now, all we know is that it will not. Whether that'll change I don't know.

[Mr. Furious]

No. They completely cancelled the patch and the PC DLC's. Not in the making now or in the near or far distant future.

[Lovesick]

I thought at least some form of a patch was out, but obviously not.

I'm quite ticked off, and from a franchise that I personally worship, I will seriously reconsider any future purchases.

To simply produce a broken product and then move on to another project designed to make money, leaving users to deal with multiple problems, and basically asking people to suck it up because of timing and technical issues is not good enough.

I recognize that this isn't directly Elizabeth's fault and this isn't aimed at her at all, but at the entire team. This shouldn't have escalated to the frustration and anger users are feeling right now and it could have been easily avoided by a release of a patch.

And it really annoys me to know that patches for every other console EXCEPT for the PC have been released, and the PC patch has been abandoned.

Oh, and I'm really annoyed that Minerva's den isn't being released to PC. I'm pissed off when topics like this (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83967) pop up glorifying the DLC, and we can't access it.


Elizabeth, my question to you: Is there any work being done to assist PC users? Is a patch being worked on? Is the team even working on Bioshock 2 fixes? (Just a simple Yes or No will suffice.)

[Lovesick]

To the user above me, what did that accomplish? *shakes head*

And one other point I'd like to make. I'm angry that a patch hasn't been released, but I'd be a bit more content if I knew 2K was doing something about it. If I knew that they had thought 'right guys, we need to stop and fix this.'

The fact that they've moved onto other projects and are just pumping out games with no regard for customer service is extremelt disheartening. It shows complete disregard for customer service and implies that exciting press about new games and money gained takes priority over customers.

Obviously simple requests aren't going to get a response, has anyone considered a media approach? Talking to gaming media outlets?

[Codex]

Obviously simple requests aren't going to get a response, has anyone considered a media approach? Talking to gaming media outlets?

Kotaku mentioned it yesterday. I do believe a few others did as well. I don't have the links off hand.

[Relight]

Tons of sites are mentioning it. Just use Google.

http://kotaku.com/5659593/pc-misses-out-on-bioshock-2-downloadable-content

http://www.destructoid.com/no-minerva-s-den-or-protector-trials-for-bioshock-2-pc-185965.phtml

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-10-08-no-minervas-den-for-pc-bioshock-2

[Lovesick]

No, I don't mean in relation to Minerva's Den, I mean about the extreme frustration about the patch and the things PC users have had to deal with ingame.

[Electro-Bolt]

I've never played a single match on the new maps.

Neither have I. :(

All of us who bought the DLC might as well have burnt $10 instead.

And Elizabeth, I just want to quickly say that I feel really bad for you. As I mentioned before, you're just the messenger but you're being attacked left and right. Now what I don't understand is why you aren't just as angry as we are. The company that you work for put you in this situation. This nonsense could have been prevented if certain aspects of the game hadn't been overlooked.

[cardboardvalise]

Neither have I. :(

All of us who bought the DLC might as well have burnt $10 instead.

And Elizabeth, I just want to quickly say that I feel really bad for you. As I mentioned before, you're just the messenger but you're being attacked left and right. Now what I don't understand is why you aren't just as angry as we are. The company that you work for put you in this situation. This nonsense could have been prevented if certain aspects of the game hadn't been overlooked.

and will 2k build a playlist? no. they screwed us. you won't get my money anymore, jerks.

[Ywap]

Is this a joke or something?

2K has sold a broken product and has no intention what so ever to fix it?

Wow, just wow....

[63jax]

loool, i think those nerds at 2k are paying themselves a little too much importance, like they are working in a huge company like Microsoft or Exxon-Mobile, so hilarious...it took them 8 months to analyze the bugs and the status of the games, like they are planing a huge scale operation on Mars or a war or something... and probably invested a few billion dollars on making this study on feasibility.
companies like this are killing pc gaming and we are wonder why pc gaming is fading away, well people you have your answer! just give them your money in the future and they will surely kill it

[mkey]

I realize I'm new to this forum, but I've been following 2K's doings along some other "once in a time game developers/publishers" who at this time only know how to make dirty money, assuming that people are daft and have a short attention span.

Allow me to remind you, the customers, you have the absolute right to choose where your time and money will be invested in and there are no reasons to keep trailing behind some washed out gaming company, only because you're accustomed to or you fall for hype easily. Just remember how hard it is to make the money you're making and try to imagine what would your boss do if your level of diligence would match the one 2K is displaying.

Making games used to be art, made be the people who wanted and loved to make games and they made games they themselves wanted to play. They knew what features needed to be there to make the game great, they liked exploring and laying the ground for others who may have been less creative and inspired, leaving them enough space to polish up their original ideas.

Today we get companies like 2K or Epic (I'm trying, but it's hard to find anyone who sunk as low as they have) who don't even try anymore, milking the franchises dry, making maximum profit for minimum workload. Note that this is not valid on the PC platform only, we do tend to be treated with more disdain, but these guys have more then enough disrespect to pass along on other platforms as well.

Remember, if you aren't a part of the solution you're part of the problem. Make 2K work hard for their money, let them underestimate gamers even further, we'll be laughing in the end. Hell, I'm laughing even now with my money tucked safely in my wallet.

[Mearl]

2k did it again - hilarious. Some months ago, I posted on these forums to voice my anger and tell 2k and Elizabeth that I'm not at all satisfied with the crap they're pulling (2k released a broken game and Elizabeth made lame excuses). Then I left and turned my back on these forums because I - and everyone else here - was essentially ignored with legitimate concerns.

Now I read the news about the DLC and the patch that is not coming on a gaming website, so I returned just to have a look at what's going on here. It's funny and sad at the same time that nothing has changed here. People are still angry about 2k's business ethics, 2k is still doing nothing for their customers, Elizabeth is still trying to defend this bunch of no good liars. I still can't play the game, but I don't care anymore.

Tell you what, 2k: In the past 4 months, I didn't even think about buying a game released by your company or your developers, who are obviously incapable of producing games that work properly (see also Civ 5 and Mafia II, as far as I can tell from the news). I won't buy another 2k product in the future, so you're at least missing out on one formerly loyal customer for good. I hope others here on these forums will remember how you deal with the people who buy your games and finance your company. I hope they will vote with their wallets, too, and show you that not piracy but bad support for broken games and impertinence towards customers are the reasons why gaming publishers disappear from the market.

[doomed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock_2#Unresolved_technical_issues

On October 9, 2010[45], eight months after the release of the game, Elizabeth stated that due to technical and timing reasons 2K has decided not to release a patch for the PC version to fix the identified issues, and the missing vending machine sounds and playlists for the multiplayer DLC maps won't be added to any versions of the game. Furthermore, it was confirmed that the Protector Trials and Minerva’s Den DLCs would not be released for PC. Both DLCs were originally announced that would be released on the PC platform[46][47] as a part of 2K's president, Christoph Hartmann, aggressive post-launch plan to satisfy the fans that have "waited in the snow, rain and cold for the midnight launch of BioShock 2" with single player content "that provides new insight into the world of Rapture, extending the lore and fiction of the failed Utopia under the sea."[48]

Next time, don't forget guys, that Mr. Hartmann lied to you.

[SpottedPattern]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock_2#Unresolved_technical_issues

Some gimp's removed it.

[Relight]

Some gimp's removed it.

Well, Wikipedia tries to be very factual, unbiased, and non-editorial.

That type of info would be better suited to the BioShock Wiki on Wikia.

[SpottedPattern]

Well, Wikipedia tries to be very factual, unbiased, and non-editorial.

That type of info would be better suited to the BioShock Wiki on Wikia.

What part of that infortmation is NOT factual ? it is all fact.

[Mr.Big_Daddy]

2k probably edited and removed it, after all anyone can edit a wiki entry.

[Tridus]

loool, i think those nerds at 2k are paying themselves a little too much importance, like they are working in a huge company like Microsoft or Exxon-Mobile, so hilarious...it took them 8 months to analyze the bugs and the status of the games, like they are planing a huge scale operation on Mars or a war or something... and probably invested a few billion dollars on making this study on feasibility.
companies like this are killing pc gaming and we are wonder why pc gaming is fading away, well people you have your answer! just give them your money in the future and they will surely kill it

No, it actually took them almost no time to do that work. But if you tell people right away, it might cost sales. Best to string people along for a while and get as many sales as you can before coming clean.

This is the kind of stuff that kills companies in the long term. EA is still trying to get out of their negative image, and 2k is busy building themselves one.

I'll be avoiding stuff put out by 2k in the future.

[Mr. Furious]

Check the Wiki again, guys.

[Tigershark]

2K has turned its back on PC owners, and we should now do exactly the same thing to them. Never buy another 2K product and risk being screwed in another BioShock 2 type scenario. Resist the hype of Infinite and anything else they produce. Let them stop making games for the PC altogether, if it's such a hassle for them to: 1) produce quality games that actually WORK or 2) support a less-than-perfect game until it does work. They'll never get another cent from me. They can pump out all the hype they want and, of course, most of the GP will forget this travesty and buy into the next disaster. Hopefully enough of us will remember this and cause them to lose money on their next PC misadventure.

[sblantipodi]

Hey guys,

I have an update on the status of patches for BioShock 2 and some answers to questions on features that have been outstanding for a while. We will not be adding vending machine sounds into any version of BioShock 2 and we will not be adding playlists for the multiplayer DLC maps – we did look in to both options but due to technical and timing issues, these two fixes are not feasible. We are planning patches for the 360 and PS3 to fix some functionality issues, but they will not drastically change gameplay (and I’ll post the patch notes when I get them – these two items are still in with QA.) We will also not be offering Protector Trials and Minerva’s Den on the PC in the future – and I want to say that I’m sorry for the disappointment this will cause to PC players out there. As always, if any of these issues change in the future, I will update you guys first, but at this point in time I don’t want to make you wait any longer and these are the most definite answers I have and you guys should deem them final decisions.

Please feel free to PM me or email with any questions – I’ll follow up in this thread as best as possible but if I miss your comment, I’m not ignoring you – I might just not have read the post – If this happens, again, just ping me and we can chat.

Thanks,

Elizabeth

I'm really disappointed.
I always buy original games, I have the collectors edition of both Bio1 and Bio2, Bio Infinite will be downloaded from the mule :mad:

[R4IDER]

I am very shocked about how 2K games have brushed aside PC gamers. I pre-ordered Bioshock 2 and played through the game with no voice sounds during the cut scenes and also problems the key binds when hacking, I completed the game and I intended to play through the game a few months later when everything that was wrong with the game was fixed.

To my surprise today I've clicked on the news for Bioshock 2 to read the patch notes and I haven't been able to find anything other than 2K telling PC Bioshock customers that you are being brushed aside, even more shocking to me was that the sound and key binds issue still as not been fixed 8 months after the release of the game.

For these reasons I will NOT be buying Bioshock: Infinite.

[lostinacrowd]

For these reasons I will NOT be buying Bioshock: Infinite.

I thought Mr. Levine's company Irrational Games is handling Bioshock:Infinite?

If 2K gets their paws on B:I i'm with you on that!!!! Such a shame. :(

[R4IDER]

I thought Mr. Levine's company Irrational Games is handling Bioshock:Infinite?

If 2K gets their paws on B:I i'm with you on that!!!! Such a shame. :(

Ditto, If 2K Games have nothing to do with the next BS I will buy the game also. I haven't really been keeping up to date with what's going on in the land of BS only after watching the good looking infinite trailer did I discover the news about lacking support for BS2 on PC.

[ancient]

I thought Mr. Levine's company Irrational Games is handling Bioshock:Infinite?

If 2K gets their paws on B:I i'm with you on that!!!! Such a shame. :(

2K owns Irrational Games ;)

[zealous010]

I thought Mr. Levine's company Irrational Games is handling Bioshock:Infinite?

If 2K gets their paws on B:I i'm with you on that!!!! Such a shame. :(


Ditto, If 2K Games have nothing to do with the next BS I will buy the game also. I haven't really been keeping up to date with what's going on in the land of BS only after watching the good looking infinite trailer did I discover the news about lacking support for BS2 on PC.

IR is developing the game, 2k is publishing it.

In any case 2k has its name on it.

[darkeyes9090]

I believe that consumers have no memory to speak of. If they produce another game with good reviews etc., most gamers will buy it regardless of how they screwed us this time.

What may happen though, is that I, and hopefully many others, will never preorder or even purchase any game until it has been out for awhile and we can see if it is a working quality product.

I pre ordered this game. I have waited almost a year to play it. This will not happen again. I will wait for the game to be "tested" by those who will buy it early on, and only then consider it for purchase by me.

I would also really like to see someone , with the know-how, put up a protest on the web where all of us who are upset can get a voice to sign petitions etc. and really make some noise about this situation.

Get everyone you know (use facebook, twitter, etc.0 to spread the word to the gamer sites, etc.

[B17gunner98th]

I work at Target, which is a major retail store for those who don't know and Bioshock 2 is on sale for 7 US American dollars for PC.

[Magic17]

Thank You 2K.....now how can i get my refund for the metro map pack dlc?

i hate to see the name of Bioshock go down like this....its as though 2K just don't care.

i think that 2K from the start had no intention of releasing a patch for the metro pack. they have been leading us on!! how the hell can it take months and months and months to create a simple patch?, the reason is because they never even attempted to make one...

I think that 2K are very lucky that they still have Irrational Games. otherwise they would fail big time!!!!

thanks for NOTHING 2K!!:mad:


roll on FALLOUT NEW VEGAS!

[ancient]

What may happen though, is that I, and hopefully many others, will never preorder or even purchase any game until it has been out for awhile and we can see if it is a working quality product.

Exactly.

Enthusiasm and willingness to preorder has a price. The goodwill that is so easy to ruin with the inappropriate "nothing personal, just business" attitude.

Plus countless blog entries we wrote / videos we made, before the launch and after the launch of the game, advertising the beauty and the very existence of this creation, etc. etc.

Fan enthusiasm does have a price.

[Drez]

I have never had any issues with the game even before any patches were released so I tend to think some of the problems are particular PC configurations.

Sound issues I feel are from people using onboard sound which will NEVER be as good as a stand alone video card. Years ago nobody tried to game with onboard sound but now people think it is somehow good enough.

Mouse issues I have never had either so it may be people's mouse software conflicting with the game.

All in all the game works perfectly for me so I could care less if there are no more patches as I did not even need the first one.

Thanks 2K for a great game.

And there are some issues that 2K has fessed up to that are provably independant of the end user's hardware and software configuration. This has been proven and stated and restated and even acquiesced to by 2k Elizabeth time and time again and again and again and again and again all the way back through the middle of February.

While these issues may not personally bother you, or you may not have noticed them, the issues still exist - for you as much as for anyone else. The HUD and menu stretching in 16x10 and 5x4 aspect rations is one such issue. This may be the 20th or so time I am stating all this, but there is an article on Cult of Rapture (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/article/bioshock2pcmegafeature) regarding the PC version of the game, published before BioShock 2 came out (it was published on January 29th - about 10 days before the February 9th release date, but while preorders were still being taken) that specifically and explicitly stated that "HUD and menu elements will look the same in all resolutions no matter what. That is a direct quote from the article. The exact quote is as follows:


We support single-screen 4:3, 5:4, 16:9 and 16:10 resolutions. The game has been optimized to ensure that all game elements such as menus, HUD, UI, etc appear exactly the same regardless of what resolution the user is running the game at.

And again the link is here: http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/article/bioshock2pcmegafeature

Notice the phrasing "exactly the same." Now, it has been pointed out that this is technically mathematically impossible. But if we put pedantry aside for the moment and apply a little common lingo here, "exactly the same" should definitely preclude the very obvious stretching issues between a person running the game in 16x9 and a person running the game in 16x10. Again, these have been proven beyond a doubt and acquiesced to by 2k Elizabeth as being universal issues with the game that do not have any bearing on the end user's hardware configuration. The only ways in which an end user would not be affected by the HUD and menu stretching are: (a) you are not playing in a resolution with a 5x4 or 16x10 aspect ratio, (b) you just didn't notice it somehow, or (c) apathy/indifference. The latter two, though, are irrelevant, because the explicit comment in the article advertised a game element that is clearly broken.

And this is just one issue among dozens. It is completely disingenous for you or anyone else to suggest that these issues are the result of variable end user configurations. I'm sure some of them are, but a number of them are issues with BioShock 2's coding. Someone who isn't around these boards so much might be able to get away with such an implication, but I don't believe you have any such excuse. You've read the same threads the rest of us have and it doesn't take much to ascertain which issues are related to the end user's configuration, which are completely objective to the end user's configuration, and to see that the number of issues that BioShock 2's code is directly responsible for is too high to just brush aside.

Anyway, to reiterate, it is provable and factual that HUD and menu stretching is an issue caused solely by BioShock 2's coding. 2k Elizabeth also admitted to this. If pushed, I would agree that in and of itself this HUD stretching isn't a big deal. But how about the fact that an article that came out about 10 days BEFORE the game was even released EXPLICITLY stated that the HUD will "appear exactly the same regardless of what resolution the user is running the game at"? We can all sit here and engage in a game of semantics and wordplay, but anyone that thinks a clear vertical HUD and menu stretch falls under any reasonable definition of "appear exactly the same" is either lying or being a silly goose.

[63jax]

lets not get angry here boys and girls, doesn't worth it... this is how we learn only by burning ourselves. the real tragedy will be if we fall again for their ☺☺☺☺ then we will be really, really stupid. i surely learned my lesson with this company!
one more thing, we can blame the reviewers too, i read a lot of reviews about this game and almost none of the them said nothing about those obvious and striking bugs, what kind of people are working on those sites, what are they paid for, i think they don't even play the damn games...I always buy a game based on reviews but now not even those are reliable, this is not right.

[Drez]

It doesn't change the outcome, but knowing the bullet points would make us feel like there actually was a reason, instead of just feeling disappointed and let down.

Minerva's Den especially was a major release for PC gamers as the story-driven conclusion to BioShock 2's "aggressive" DLC campaign.

In light of that, "sorry this major release is not coming out because of technical and timing reasons" doesn't seem like an adequate explanation.

I would also honestly like my money back from the Metro Map Pack. I could never play a single public match on those amazing maps. Then I can use that money to buy Mafia I.

Oh I don't think we really need those. I have a feeling the bullet points probably went something like this:



Guys, let's meet at 9:30AM to discuss this lingering BioShock 2 crap. The questions we need to consider are:

1: Is it still possible for people who purchased the game between the last two and eight months ago to still get a refund if we stop stringing them along?
2a: How many people bought the game within the last 30 days?
2b: How many of the people who bought it in the last 30 days are likely to seek a refund after finding out the game has dozens of bugs that will never be fixed?
3: Could patches or DLC actually attract new customers at this point?
4: Can we really expect actually sell DLC to this unruly mob of PC-version owners we have so haphazardly estranged?
5: How much does patch/DLC certification cost with Microsoft and Sony?
6: Is the amount of revenue expected from selling the DLC expected to be substantially greater than the expense of of the certifications?
7: Where should we hold our Annual Little Sister/Big Daddy Halloween Office Party?

Or something like that anyway, I bet.

I think this is a matter of cost. They did damage, to us and to themselves, and they ran a cost-benefit analysis at this point eight months later, and the bean counters at 2k Marin/Games/Take-Two/the shadow master of all things gaming came back with an answer of "time to cut loose" because the cost and man power was either greater than whatever they expected to gain or the margin was smaller than what they consider a worthwhile venture. That is almost always how corporations make decisions.

[KevTech]

I work at Target, which is a major retail store for those who don't know and Bioshock 2 is on sale for 7 US American dollars for PC.

Bioshock2 (http://www.target.com/Bioshock-PC-Games-Windows-XP/dp/B0016BVYAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&searchView=grid5&keywords=bioshock&fromGsearch=true&sr=1-1&qid=1286742199&rh=&searchRank=target104545&id=Bioshock%20PC%20Games%20Windows%20XP&node=1038576%7C1287991011&searchSize=30&searchPage=1&searchNodeID=1038576%7C1287991011&searchBinNameList=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Ctarget_com_ primary_color-bin%2Ctarget_com_size-bin%2Ctarget_com_brand-bin&frombrowse=0)

[RESCO]

....We will not be adding vending machine sounds into any version of BioShock 2 and we will not be adding playlists for the multiplayer DLC maps – we did look in to both options but due to technical and timing issues, these two fixes are not feasible.


SHAME ON YOU 2K, you FAILED !

[cardboardvalise]

Some gimp's removed it.

so put it back

[radios]

that a game company can sell a game with SEVERE bugs in it(a defective product). and those who bought it have NO recourse? maybe the right agency hasn't been contacted?. after all, they could sell a game with almost anything on it, maybe mostly blank space, and that's LEGAL?. that don't make sense!!. if you buy just about anything else, the seller is LEGALLY responsible to fix defects within a REASONABLE amount of time!. if they took anything near 8 MONTHS to fix anything else besides a GAME, they'd be ARRESTED for FRAUD!. for REAL!. they sold a defective product and DON'T want to fix it!!..

[skyking71]

Click For Price Bioshock2 (http://www.target.com/Bioshock-PC-Games-Windows-XP/dp/B0016BVYAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&searchView=grid5&keywords=bioshock&fromGsearch=true&sr=1-1&qid=1286742199&rh=&searchRank=target104545&id=Bioshock%20PC%20Games%20Windows%20XP&node=1038576%7C1287991011&searchSize=30&searchPage=1&searchNodeID=1038576%7C1287991011&searchBinNameList=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Ctarget_com_ primary_color-bin%2Ctarget_com_size-bin%2Ctarget_com_brand-bin&frombrowse=0)

I just got back from Target and can confirm Bioshock 2 for the PC is on clearance for $7. That's a lot cheaper that the $90 I paid for the box set. Shame for it to all end like this.

[SpottedPattern]

Well, well ................. um well ............. that's one way to illustrate graphically how PC customers feel, violated with a big pointy rusty implement for all the world to see.

[duckdudetom]

Vending machine sounds need to be fixed, no I will not let it go.

[mwinter77]

This isn't why the answer came today (I didn't even know you did that!) - whether you believe me or not, this is something I've been working on for a while. Decisions like this aren't made instantly!

Boy that sure sounds like the truth for once...yeah I bet you guys spent months figuring how to string us along - milk the most $ out of sales of this broken garbage - then finally when you just can't BS us anymore - the bomb drops - we will never fix anything and never intended (promised) to!

Yes, I am certain that this screwing of the community was not done without time and effort - good job 2k!

[Bond697]

wow, this is pretty despicable. you knew 2 months ago this stuff wasn't coming out and you strung us along for 2 months.

last 2k game i or any of my friends will be buying.

i'll also be looking to spread this across the web as much as possible and i hope everyone else will too.

you're not sorry nor are anyone at 2k or taketwo. you successfully managed to screw at lot of people, and no one is going to forget it.

[2K Elizabeth]

2k probably edited and removed it, after all anyone can edit a wiki entry.

You can track editors on wikis - I can promise you that we don't do that - That's certainly against my rules.

[Rama1965]

You can track editors on wikis - I can promise you that we don't do that - That's certainly against my rules.

It doesn't appear to be anybody from 2K that removed the WikiPedia content, although that's what I suspected at first as well. I reviewed the article history and back and forth discussion by the editors and the content in question keeps being removed because the only source of said content are the postings in this forum. So, until more presumably reputable and neutral sources issue reports of "Outstanding Technical Issues" and the dissatisfaction of the users of the PC version, the content in question will keep getting deleted by one of WikiPedia's editors.

Accordingly, I urge my fellow PC games and former fans of 2K Games to send your comments of outrage to whatever video game media outlets you can think of. I myself have just sent emails to the hosts of G4's XPlay requesting that they include mention of the grievances listed in this forum when they hopefully report that the previously announced DLC and patches have been canceled for the PC version. I'll be emailing the hosts of a few more video game shows tomorrow.

[Relight]

What part of that infortmation is NOT factual ? it is all fact.

It was factual yes, and mostly well-written, but it was written with an agenda. I don't think Wikipedia will entertain editorial writing or writing with an agenda.

Just going back and forth with editing and reverting is pointless, and I assume that Wikipedia will crack down on the page sooner or later.

I realize whoever wrote this wants the exposure of posting it on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure how you can edit it to make it meet Wikipedia's standards.

[Drez]

It was factual yes, and mostly well-written, but it was written with an agenda. I don't think Wikipedia will entertain editorial writing or writing with an agenda.

Just going back and forth with editing and reverting is pointless, and I assume that Wikipedia will crack down on the page sooner or later.

I realize whoever wrote this wants the exposure of posting it on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure how you can edit it to make it meet Wikipedia's standards.

As Rama1965 points out, it is purely a matter of sourcing. I feel safe in saying that without even going to the Wikipedia page. I've done a bit of editing on Wikipedia and I've read many of their guideline pages and forums are, in almost every circumstance, not a valid source for Wikipedia standards. Various gaming sites are valid source, some other sites are valid sources but only under certain conditions, but forums are generally not. Unless a large number of sites actually post about the clusterblank this has been, it's not going to get up on Wikipedia. You are right that editorializing is also against their policy - a "neutral point of view" is central to Wikipedia editing standards - but I think the primary issue here will probably be sourcing. A "technical issues" section added even written from a completely neutral point of view would be stricken just as quickly as one that is heavily slanted if there no valid sources can be cited.

Nothing sinister there, really; it is a matter of sourcing and Wikipedia's policies with regard to noteworthiness and sourcing.

[radios]

Hey guys,

I have an update on the status of patches for BioShock 2 and some answers to questions on features that have been outstanding for a while. We will not be adding vending machine sounds into any version of BioShock 2 and we will not be adding playlists for the multiplayer DLC maps – we did look in to both options but due to technical and timing issues, these two fixes are not feasible. We are planning patches for the 360 and PS3 to fix some functionality issues, but they will not drastically change gameplay (and I’ll post the patch notes when I get them – these two items are still in with QA.) We will also not be offering Protector Trials and Minerva’s Den on the PC in the future – and I want to say that I’m sorry for the disappointment this will cause to PC players out there. As always, if any of these issues change in the future, I will update you guys first, but at this point in time I don’t want to make you wait any longer and these are the most definite answers I have and you guys should deem them final decisions.

Please feel free to PM me or email with any questions – I’ll follow up in this thread as best as possible but if I miss your comment, I’m not ignoring you – I might just not have read the post – If this happens, again, just ping me and we can chat.

Thanks,

Elizabeth why not just hire a skilled coder? if not, i'm sure if you released the source code, all the problems would be fixed within a month!. if you have a team of skilled coders working on fixing BS2 for 8 MONTHS, without fixing all the problems, somethings wrong!. no?.

[duckdudetom]

They could make it open source and then they'd be community to downloads to fix all the crap 2K screwed up within weeks

[oceanclub]

As someone who bought special editions of Bioshock and Bioshock 2, I'm extremely disappointed by this but not entirely unsurprised since treating PC owners as second-class citizens seems to be almost a point of honour among many developers these days (with notable exceptions such as Valve, who release DLC for free on PC that they charge for on XBox, for example). I have an XBox anyway, which I use very little, and I don't aim to rebuy Bioshock 2 in order to play the DLC on it.

P.

[duckdudetom]

Thank god that Infinite is being developed by Irrational, not a 2K studio. Otherwise I would not consider buying it. Even now I'm cautious considering the mess that was Bioshock 2

[Moldy Clay]

I have to say I am not satisfied with the reasoning given for no patches for the things we actually give a ☺☺☺☺ about.

The vending machine sounds were brought up, if I am not mistaken, BEFORE release of the game back in FEBRUARY, and by someone from 2K.

And the Rapture Metro released in May, and we all asked for a fix for that immediately.

There's no excuse for not fixing the vending machine sounds, and 8 months later saying "TIMING AND TECHNICAL ISSUES" were why that wasn't fixed. 8 months to try to fix sounds that are IN the game? I call bull.

Rapture Metro has been out for 5 months.

The real reason this wasn't announced yet was probably because 2k wanted to get as many potential sales as possible, from those who DIDN'T know it was broken and not going to be fixed, and to get sales from that 3 day DEAL OF THE WEEK on XBL. Get all that money, and from people hoping for a fix, and then be like "lol nah".

The multiplayer DLC is a huge slap in the face to the fans, and I hope 2K knows that. Charging for stuff already on the disc (and not just charging- Over charging. $5? Really? For a line of code that doesn't even have achievements, thus not required to cost money) and then selling DLC that you know is not going to work right unless 100% owners buy it, and then string along all the complaining customers for 5 months, just to give them "TECHNICAL/TIMING ISSUES MADE IT NOT VIABLE".

Something's just wrong about the whole thing.

I don't know that I want to do business with 2K Marin again. Infinite is by a separate team, so I'll get that, but I am probably going to avoid anything with 2K Marin attatched to it now.

@duckdudetom - Irrational is a 2K studio. Sorry to burst your bubble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games#Studios

[SpottedPattern]

You can track editors on wikis - I can promise you that we don't do that - That's certainly against my rules.

There's no point really trying to save face is there ? when the vast majority of PC users or even console users who have problems with Bioshock 2, it's DLC and 2K Marin really don't think very much of you, by which I mean 2K Marin and 2K Games, plus wiki can be edited anomously not a problem, NOT saying you did edit wiki, but I find it mildly hilarious and wholely dissappointing when you can be bothered to post things like that but remain quiet for extended periods on important things, I guess that is what passes for Customer Service with 2K.

[Mearl]

You can track editors on wikis - I can promise you that we don't do that - That's certainly against my rules.

You and your company promised a lot and nothing ever came out of it - so nothing you say can be taken seriously anyway.

Doesn't matter if this section makes it into the Wikipedia article, even without that a lot of people will remember this. 2k released a game that didn't work properly for many players, 2k didn't deliver in terms of support (well, they sent some techs here who kept repeating the same instructions for ever and ever and disappeared at the first signs of anger - do you call that tech support?), 2k messed up with On-disc-DLC and a lot of trouble with online play, and in the end - because I consider your statement final - 2k didn't even fix the broken game. The last point is probably the worst, because 2k now owns a lot of hard-earned money from people who still haven't played the game.

That's what people here will hopefully remember - a scandal not to be forgotten and not to be appeased by hollow apologies and further promises to make things better next time.

[Zuzax]

You can track editors on wikis - I can promise you that we don't do that - That's certainly against my rules.Sock puppet accounts and friendly "volunteers" are typically used to remove information that is embarrassing to the Wikipedia subject. Research the history of the Wikipedia edit wars for Scientology, Lyndon LaRouche, or (for a gaming reference) Derek Smart.


That brings me to the next topic: We don't delete content unless it breaks forum rules, is insulting, or threatening. This thread may be closed some day if it turns into a complete hate fest that can't be salvaged, but not at all because people are unhappy or angry.Locking them causes them to sink to the bottom and effectively disappear in the depths of the back pages. Problem solved.

Why isn't 2K's decision not to support PC content or bugs stickied at the top of the forum? There's are plenty of people out there that will come to this forum one day to see how to fix their broken game. They won't know your policy of preferring PMs, and this thread will be long locked and sinking to page 6.

[pissed off bioshock fan]

I bought Minerva's Den the day it came out it downloaded it and installed it but when I went to play the game the downloadable content section on the main menu hadn't even lit up, I have repeated this process many many times. I got in touch first with the play station network support who were useless and then had three weeks correspondence with the 2k support team who were equally useless at fixing the problem until eventually (almost a month after I PAID for the product) I was told that the problem was being looked at by the 2nd level support team. 16 days later I had no word what so ever from this 2nd level team and sent another email to 2k support re-explaining the situation I was told as always I would be sent a reply with in 72 hours now a week later I have received no such reply and am pretty much being ignored this is a ridiculous way to treat paying customers does anyone else have any ideas of what I can do to finally play this DLC almost six weeks since I paid for it ?I also saw on a similar thread that this problem can occur if the game comes from a different region as the console if this is the case then I want my money back 2k there is absolutely no advertisement of this fact in your game Manuel or box (the box doesn't even have a region code) or on the play station store and if this is true iv simply been robbed.

add me to the list of fans that aren't going to forget this 2k

[pissed off bioshock fan]

PS3

I purchased and downloaded the Minerva's Den DLC through the Playstation Store the other day. After several attempts to install, uninstall, delete, and reinstall both the game and the DLC I am still unable to play or even access the DLC which I have purchased. The Downloaded Content option in the game's main menu remains greyed out and inaccessible. I have installed all of the latest system and game updates. Is there any fix for this issue?

Any help will be appreciated

Thank you

I take it Im not alone and this guy was ignored as well ? all the attention is going to the problems with the PC version but I have seen more than two people make the same complaint as me and haven't seen one reply from this Elizabeth or anyone else at 2k I'm not going to let this go so I better get an answer.

[NickM]

Why isn't 2K's decision not to support PC content or bugs stickied at the top of the forum? There's are plenty of people out there that will come to this forum one day to see how to fix their broken game. They won't know your policy of preferring PMs, and this thread will be long locked and sinking to page 6.

This is an important point. If BS2 is now abandonware it would be useful if it was clearly flagged as such. Trying to pretend otherwise would simply annoy even more.

[jbailey8]

If this game is truly being dropped from active support, they should release
at least enough source code (if not all of it) so people in the community
could take a shot at fixing these issues themselves, at this point, I don't
see why 2K would care.

[zsoca]

Great... very great. I would say that's fair enough right now for PC gamers.
I really cant understand why we are always tossed out and abandoned when a game rlses come. I was eager to play the Minerva's Den DLC to know what will be the big ending of BS2 and Protector's Trial was promising too. but no... again console gamers get their portion of enjoyment while PC gamers have a big pile of cr*p in their face. and it is not just 2K Games. see Gears Of War 2-3, Fable 2-3, Condemned 2, Halo 3, just to name a few huge names (though as I heard Fable 3 is coming to PC but what's the point to get it when noone know sh*t about the story). and now it may be a very important part of the story with Minerva's Den but again we wont know it. I dunno why I buy games cause companies can do this with me again and again. what's next? BS Infinite will even be cancelled on PC that's the next step? I hope not. I bought BS 1-2 and I wanna play the DLC's. I wont spend money on shi*tty consoles which is sooo overrated but outdated. PC evolves every year while XBOX360 and PS3 are on the same level as it was when it came out. I didnt buy a fast PC system just to be in my room, I wanna play good games on it. but anyway noone cares about PC gamers anymore. I hope 2K will be a console company too and wont exploit out the potential of the PC (sarcasm).

[2K Elizabeth]

Sock puppet accounts and friendly "volunteers" are typically used to remove information that is embarrassing to the Wikipedia subject. Research the history of the Wikipedia edit wars for Scientology, Lyndon LaRouche, or (for a gaming reference) Derek Smart.

Locking them causes them to sink to the bottom and effectively disappear in the depths of the back pages. Problem solved.

Why isn't 2K's decision not to support PC content or bugs stickied at the top of the forum? There's are plenty of people out there that will come to this forum one day to see how to fix their broken game. They won't know your policy of preferring PMs, and this thread will be long locked and sinking to page 6.


You have my word that no one is editing the wiki secretly as a 2K employee, and if they are and you find me who, I will stop it. Moving on, we won't lock this thread ever unless it gets out of line, and my forum rules and other stickies about support will always guide people where they need to go.

We have three relevant threads on this topics where I have posted in three different forums. I'm not worried anyone will miss something!

[2K Elizabeth]

There's no point really trying to save face is there ? when the vast majority of PC users or even console users who have problems with Bioshock 2, it's DLC and 2K Marin really don't think very much of you, by which I mean 2K Marin and 2K Games, plus wiki can be edited anomously not a problem, NOT saying you did edit wiki, but I find it mildly hilarious and wholely dissappointing when you can be bothered to post things like that but remain quiet for extended periods on important things, I guess that is what passes for Customer Service with 2K.

I can't answer questions instantly about things I don't have answers to - if you are referring to this final decision, I gave you the answer when it had been made. I can tell you instantly the answer to the wiki inquiry, because I know it immediately. :)

[tleloc]

haha, I told you guys that they stole our money. Bye 2k Marin

Liz can we get a refund for buying maps we cant use?

I really want my money back so i can buy Limbo.

[2K Elizabeth]

I bought Minerva's Den the day it came out it downloaded it and installed it but when I went to play the game the downloadable content section on the main menu hadn't even lit up, I have repeated this process many many times. I got in touch first with the play station network support who were useless and then had three weeks correspondence with the 2k support team who were equally useless at fixing the problem until eventually (almost a month after I PAID for the product) I was told that the problem was being looked at by the 2nd level support team. 16 days later I had no word what so ever from this 2nd level team and sent another email to 2k support re-explaining the situation I was told as always I would be sent a reply with in 72 hours now a week later I have received no such reply and am pretty much being ignored this is a ridiculous way to treat paying customers does anyone else have any ideas of what I can do to finally play this DLC almost six weeks since I paid for it ?I also saw on a similar thread that this problem can occur if the game comes from a different region as the console if this is the case then I want my money back 2k there is absolutely no advertisement of this fact in your game Manuel or box (the box doesn't even have a region code) or on the play station store and if this is true iv simply been robbed.

add me to the list of fans that aren't going to forget this 2k


I messaged you to try and get you some help!

[Kleetus]

Thank god that Infinite is being developed by Irrational, not a 2K studio.

That won't help.

Irrational is owned by 2K, and 2K are publishing it.

[ohstallion]

hey everyone, I didn't notice this thread when I first posted this (only posted it on the Minerva's Den PC release thread), but it looks this post belongs here as well. started an email campaign to Take Two (2K's parent) to release Minerva's Den for PC, but it looks like the below form letter should be edited for other grievances as well (but keep it professional and respectful).

please go on and copy and paste the below form message and email to Meg (head of corporate and investor communications) - feel free to edit for other reasons (poor patching, etc). lots of folks I know (and don't know) have already sent responses! SPREAD THE WORD TO OTHER FORUMS AND BLOGS!!!!


***** Copy and Paste (and edit) starting below (don't forget to sign your name!)**********

To: Meg Maise
Investor Relations/Corporate Communications
Phone: (646) 536-2932
E-mail: meg.maise@take2games.com


Dear Meg,

As a Bioshock 2 customer, I am outraged that 2K has decided to not release additional DLC content for the PC (namely Minerva's Den).

I find this upsetting for several reasons:

1) In 2K's original announcement for Minerva's Den, 2K stated that a PC release was forthcoming - to backtrack on a statement like that constitutes a broken promise and hurts 2K's overall credibility and public image for all users.

2) More importantly, by your actions you're telling the PC market that we don't matter. If this is truly how 2K Games feels, then just come out and say so. As PC users we'll simply make sure not to purchase your games if we're to be treated as second-class citizens. And as much as we like the Bioshock universe, you should already start cutting back your projections for Bioshock Infinite if this is the half-hearted support you intend to provide for that title as well.

I do not know what sort of flawed cost / benefit analysis went into your decision-making process, but based on the anger and the number of responses I've seen in comments posted on numerous websites (including 2K Forums), I think you are being short-sighted in thinking that a PC release would not be worth the time or effort. I have read the extremely positive reviews for Minerva's Den and would have even prepaid for the DLC if 2K needed to guarantee a certain level of downloads to ensure profitability. Instead 2K has hurt its own image by handling this issue in such a haphazard fashion.

I urge you to reconsider your decision and rebuild your trust with your customers - they're your ultimate stakeholders, not the shareholders, and will decide the ultimate success of Take Two Interactive as a company.

Best Regards,
[Your Name]

[NickM]

You have my word that no one is editing the wiki secretly as a 2K employee, and if they are and you find me who, I will stop it.

But you will recognise that there is now a certain deserved distrust of anything said by someone connected to 2K? Fool me once...etc.

[Lovesick]

Is 2k doing anything to assist PC users? If not, and all 2k is doing now is pumping out games, why is that?

And we would really prefer an answer that doesnt side step the situation such as 'timing or technical issues.'


What i dont get is how 2k has NO TIME to help PC users struggling with one of their flawed games, yet they continue to pump out new games. Why is that? Customer service is obviously not a priority, so I guess it's all about making money. Well done on delivering a broken product and then stranding loyal customers. Nice to know where your priorities lie.

[SpottedPattern]

I can't answer questions instantly about things I don't have answers to - if you are referring to this final decision, I gave you the answer when it had been made. I can tell you instantly the answer to the wiki inquiry, because I know it immediately. :)

Ok why is there no official word posted on the Cult Of Rapture about this ?

Why is there not an official post stickied in the Tech Support that basically tells PC users to go fish if they want any help whatsoever ?

How do 2K Marin feel about shafting not just PC users but also loyal fans ?

Will 2K be refunding everyone who bought a useless DLC that can not be used ? if not why does 2K consider it ok to perpetrate mass theft ?

Are M$ to blame in anyway for hobbling DLC releases for the PC ?

Please reply in kind, short concise answers that actually respond to the questions asked, if you need to speak to someone of a higher pay grade before responding please advise a reasonable and accurate time scale for the responses, thanks.

[Sgt Scyther]

I am extremely disappointed with 2K and how this whole thing was handled. I tried to remain patient. I really did. I bought the Rapture Metro pack and, while I was pretty annoyed I couldn't actually PLAY any of these maps, I figured "well, at least they're working on it". And now I find out you guys have just been pulling our legs this entire time and you offer up these BS excuses?

I'm too infuriated to even think straight right now. It's just been one ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ excuse after another with you guys and I'm sick of it. I don't mean to take this out on you specifically 2K Liz because I know you're just the messenger, but you have to understand how frustrating this is for us. We're the customers. We're the ones buying this game and supporting it and we're treated like crap. Between charging people for content already on the game disc, the vending machine sounds, the Rapture Metro pack, and not giving the PC users the DLC, it's just been one tired and pathetic excuse after another.

I spent my own hard earned money on those Rapture Metro maps back when they were first released and have yet to play able to play a single one of them. And, by the looks of things, I never will. I can't get a refund so, what, I just gave $10 to you guys for no reason? If 2K Marin has any respect for their customers at all we should be given some sort of compensation for wasting money on a map pack we can't even use in a subpar multiplayer game. And I don't mean a dashbord theme or gamerpics, we should be given a full refund.

I loved BioShock 2 but consider it my last game I will ever purchase from 2K Marin. And if I do ever purchase another game from 2K Marin, I'll be sure to get it used.

[2K Elizabeth]

Ok why is there no official word posted on the Cult Of Rapture about this ?

Why is there not an official post stickied in the Tech Support that basically tells PC users to go fish if they want any help whatsoever ?

How do 2K Marin feel about shafting not just PC users but also loyal fans ?

Will 2K be refunding everyone who bought a useless DLC that can not be used ? if not why does 2K consider it ok to perpetrate mass theft ?

Are M$ to blame in anyway for hobbling DLC releases for the PC ?

Please reply in kind, short concise answers that actually respond to the questions asked, if you need to speak to someone of a higher pay grade before responding please advise a reasonable and accurate time scale for the responses, thanks.

Spotted -

As always, being respectful will yield you better results. If people are insulting while asking questions, I'm not going to answer them. Same with a question that's already been answered or is trollish.

I've made several posts here to answer everyone's questions and will continue to post where necessary, when necessary. Our tech support hasn't changed at all, and we'll continue to support people through email, phone, and by contact me or one of the community managers regardless of issue. If you do have issues, contact me.

As for your questions about Microsoft and 2K Marin, I don't think you are looking for an honest answer there - we support our developers as they support us and claiming Microsoft "hobbled" anything is in the realm of trolling.

Thanks.

[FireyFate]

Respect needs to be earned, and 2K is currently 1000 miles away from it.

[wittmannger]

☺☺☺☺ you 2k, nothig to say bout this but no more money for you.

[SpottedPattern]

As far as I'm concerned they're all legitimate questions, if you wish to hide behind the excuse that I'm trolling, go for it, but I agree wholeheartedly with Fireyfate, 2K Marin have lost my respect and it's abundantly clear that 2K Marin do not respect the PC user base, so we're all square on that basis.

So the questions stand, if you're not willing to answer them then I'm not surprised as I'm sure many people won't be either.

So please, pretty please with sugar and cherries on top answer the questions as opposed to using other means to deflect them, thank you.

PS: If you're upset by anything in the post you quoted, you're in the wrong line of business, you need a thick skin for working in Customer Service.

[2K Elizabeth]

I did answer them all, though. You ask very vague questions (but there was nothing "hobbled" by anyone) and while we are never thrilled to have to bring bad news to gamers, we stand behind our product and will continue to do our best moving forward to listen to you guys.

[Tahnit]

Spotted -

As always, being respectful will yield you better results. If people are insulting while asking questions, I'm not going to answer them. Same with a question that's already been answered or is trollish.

I've made several posts here to answer everyone's questions and will continue to post where necessary, when necessary. Our tech support hasn't changed at all, and we'll continue to support people through email, phone, and by contact me or one of the community managers regardless of issue. If you do have issues, contact me.

As for your questions about Microsoft and 2K Marin, I don't think you are looking for an honest answer there - we support our developers as they support us and claiming Microsoft "hobbled" anything is in the realm of trolling.

Thanks.

Umm he was not being insulting and unrespectful at all. I saw no insults or anything. Words like "shafted" are how we feel right now and yes you did commit theft. 10 dollars for a map pack you can not use is theft. I have already asked for my refund from steam and pointed to this thread as the reason. Hopefully this game gets deleted from my games library and I get my 50 dollars back.

[SpottedPattern]

I did answer them all, though. You ask very vague questions (but there was nothing "hobbled" by anyone) and while we are never thrilled to have to bring bad news to gamers, we stand behind our product and will continue to do our best moving forward to listen to you guys.

What is vaUie about the questions ? especially no 1 and 2 ? really ? come on they're precise questions.

They're all relevant questions that need answering besides the M$ one, as I already know the answer to that one but thought it worthwhile giving 2K Marin the opportunity to advise their position to their customers on it.

[ohstallion]

Hey guys, bashing Elizabeth and 2K and not doing anything further won't really solve our problem here - 2K simply thinks the PC market isn't worth their time, and we should do our best to prove them wrong. Shouting and screaming on this little forum (where we'll seem like just a handful of angry cranks) won't really help.

Please look at the post I posted above re: sending an email to Meg Maise, copy and paste and edit to your liking (or write a whole new letter if you have the time), and then ask 5 - 10 of your other Bioshock buddies to do the same (and post on other forums, web sites, blogs, etc) and let's get some momentum going in a disciplined manner.

This will take maybe 2 or 3 minutes of your time - we are absolutely justified in being angry, but let's try focusing it - if it doesn't work, only took 2 -3 minutes of our time and we just keep trashing 2K for what it is.

[Zuzax]

Our tech support hasn't changed at all.2K has declined to fix the known issues and bugs that they acknowledged and promised to fix (documented in quotes from 2K reps that we shouldn't have to produce again). By that token alone, I would suggest that 2K's tech support for BS2 has changed considerably from 2K's promise of tech support at the time of the initial acknowledgment of said issues and bugs.

Unless of course 2K (from day one) had no intentions to fix these issues and concealed this strategy from its customers while BS2 was still a full-price title at retail. Then 2K's strategy hasn't changed a bit.

Respect needs to be a two way street here, so I would ask 2K to be respectful to its community and stop the condescension and false empathy in its replies and also cease using deceptive, evasive language in its descriptions of what happened to cancel PC support. Tell the whole unvarnished story - your community couldn't get any madder at you than it already is.

Some of us will appreciate the straight talk and honesty. It would be a refreshing change after eight months of evasive actions from 2K.

[Xion999]

I got BS2 specifically for PC (not long after it came out) because I simply can't stand the Xbox controller for FPS games. The initial thought was that 2K would support all platforms they sold it to--dropping support for a defective product they sold constitutes fraud. I'd be willing to bet there are many consumers and lawyers trying to get together a class action lawsuit right about now.

Its really a shame that this DLC isnt coming to PC. Personally, I'm not surprised. I wasn't expecting it to in the first place--alot of DLC is console specific anyway. The fact that they lied about it is what makes people angry. Honestly, I could care less about the DLC myself--if I feel so inclined, I'll borrow the 360 version from someone and buy Minervas Den and play it.

What really grinds my gears is the MULTITUDE of technical issues that I was expecting to be fixed in the PC version. Aside from what has already been mentioned--screwed up resolution on startup, stretched textures, stuck/screwed up sound--I could go on and on. The overall lack of polish of the graphics makes these problems even harder to ignore. The whole game feels like it was rushed out the door.

I'm not saying its a bad game--BS2 has a lot of good qualities, and I enjoyed playing it. But it would be much funner and a heck of a lot less frustrating if the issues were fixed.

As for our friend Liz--shes a PR representative. This means shes basically a lightning rod--someone for everyone to throw their anger at. Shes not at fault, although I agree she could have handled it better. Leave her alone.

Prepare for the fallout, 2k Games.

[dunre646]

Elizabeth, what kind of assurance can you give us that pc gamers wouldn't miss out on any dlc for x-com or duke nukem forever? and that both will be patched as needed?

[NickM]

we stand behind our product and will continue to do our best moving forward to listen to you guys.

Liz, saying things like this this is why you are losing respect in your own forum. In truth, 2K has decided not to patch even simple issues (Big Sister looping music or widescreen support). Its also decided not to provide DLC to one part of its customer base - after having announced that it would do so.

I am at a loss to understand how you can regard this as "standing behind" your product. To me and eveyone outside your head this looks like walking away from it.

Now I know the customer relations mantra is to just keep on repeating that you really care and that everything is in fact fine while (presumably) wearing a fixed grin like the Cheshire cat, but it just doesn't wash. If you treated us like adults and just said 2K has made a mess of supporting BS2 post-launch but the budget's run out, or key people left, or whatever, then you might begin to regain some credibility.

As it is now, you're going to spend the next six months arguing with a zoo of people you are supposed to be working with as a community manager. Probably not what it says in your contract.

[Grat3fulH3ad]

Hello,

I'm a lurker, but decided to chime in a bit.

I own both BS games, both for the Xbox360, so I have not experienced the afformentioned problems. My copies of the BS titles worked as advertised on Microsofts' console, so from a technical standpoint I was not disappointed. As far as enjoyment and overall satisfaction with the products I find that BS was a much more accomplished title than it's sequel.

But I digress.

I discovered this whole fiasco because of another 2k Games title, Civilization V. I have been playing Civ since III was released and I consider myself quite the fan, in fact when I have time to do a little gaming, Civ is usually my first choice.

I waited with incomprehensible impatience for the release of Civ V, biting my nails, engaging in hours long conversations with my CivBuds, scouring the intranets for any new information I could find; screenshots, videos, a few brief intangible sentences describing a new menu or gameplay element. I can only compare it to waiting for the finale of the Wheel of Time series or for The Hobbit to finally grace the silver screen in all it's Peter Jackson gloriness. The wait was unbearable.

Upon release day I got my Civ V, installed it on my year old top of the line Dell XPS laptop and prepared myself to the best of my ability.

My preperations were inadequate.

Civ V is about as functional as hen poop on a fence post. There seems to be an overlapping theme here as it pertains to 2k Games and their products. After reading through this Thread and several others I can only conclude that 2k Games is headed for trouble. I have been alive a long time and have seen many companies come and go, I can recognize the warning signs.

I remember all the arguments about companies being "too big to fail" long before Dubya started us off on this bailout road to economic insolvency. Oil Companies, Auto companies, tech, food, sports franchises, musical acts, governments and yes, even gaming compaines.. I have witnessed major players in all these fields and more fall to the ashbin of history.

Does 2k Games have such hubris to think they are beyond catostrophic collapse? Perhaps.

I believe as a shareholder and customer, that the proverbial writing is on the wall. Not just because of consumer response, which is vocal and quite livid, but because of the response of 2k Games. I find their treatment and public comunications with their consumers to be rather unsettling. No business can survive in this market by operating in the manner that I am witnessing.

Disposable income is down, consumer confidence and spending are down as well. Quite frankly 2k Games appears to be relaying on consumer ignorance to maintain their business and this is foolishly suicidal. Consumers today are more informed than they've ever been and have much less income to work with than in the last 20 years. You simply cannot survive by alienating them.

Overall I really just wanted to voice my acknowledgment of and support of the gaming community. You are standing up for your rights and this makes me smile.

And to give voice to my disatisfaction at 2k Games, not only for releasing games that appear to lack quality control, but for your intepid and utterly meaningless milktoast response to not only your consumer base but also to that other base of which I belong to, your investors. I am not very pleased with the direction in which this company is headed and if there are not significant changes made I will no longer be investing my money with you.

Best Regards,
Michael S. Wise Esq.

[SpottedPattern]

Unfortunately I think we'll find that :

1) No changes will be made to the statement made re: 2K Marin not giving a toss about PC users.

2) No information will be forth coming for any questions we ask about this or in fact anything else.

3) No effort will be made to dissuade PC users from wasting further money on both the game that has faults/defects, some fatal, and also the DLC map pack that is also a waste of money.

4) No effort will be made to make any of this as public as is possible as would be good business practice.

5) No real effort will be made to patch things up with PC users to at least make amends for things up until the statement was made.

6) No clear and concise answers will ever be uttered.

[A_Man_Chooses]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

[Mearl]

Unfortunately I think we'll find that :

1) No changes will be made to the statement made re: 2K Marin not giving a toss about PC users.

2) No information will be forth coming for any questions we ask about this or in fact anything else.

3) No effort will be made to dissuade PC users from wasting further money on both the game that has faults/defects, some fatal, and also the DLC map pack that is also a waste of money.

4) No effort will be made to make any of this as public as is possible as would be good business practice.

5) No real effort will be made to patch things up with PC users to at least make amends for things up until the statement was made.

6) No clear and concise answers will ever be uttered.

I guess you can bet on that, SpottedPattern.

But that does not come as a surprise - Liz and the team she "stands behind" made the same moves when the outrage was about the DLC a few months ago, which some of you here will remember. Same thing: People asked legitimate questions, and none was answered concisely and clearly. That's why they need people like Liz at 2k - to talk and say nothing at the same time - so they can fool at least some people who have their brains turned off. Unfortunately for 2k, a lot of people here seem to be in a mood for thinking - but then Liz just changes the strategy to ignoring the questions and/or stating they have already been answered.

Hope that she gets a raise for that good handling of the situation, so at least one person gets something out of this.

[lynxxyarly]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

To be fair, history holds quite a few examples of people not accepting a current situation and actively voicing their concerns one way or another in regards to wanting something changed. Be that war, strikes, protests, boycotts. The point is - if even people get behind an ideal, it has a chance to be changed to what the people want.

I am on this board because I fear the same issues that Bioshock 2 has in regards to development progress and patches is the same issue that is going to hold true for Civ 5. I am *really* disappointed in how poorly 2k has handled bioshock 2. I bought the game and played it (as best as I could) and moved on. I didn't expect much from 2k marin, surprisingly. I knew from the beginning when I loaded up the game and had a game breaking issue within 3 minutes of the game, that it wasn't properly released. The fact that I remapped my keys and then was unable to progress any farther meant that the people in charge of quality control were non-existent. I see that after all this time those simple, game-breaking bugs still arent fixed, means that the developers do not care about their product. Just the money they received from purchases. They have their cash and now they're running.

I fear for Civ 5's life now. In all honesty, I expect (but pray this won't happen) civ 5 to fall down just as bioshock 2 did. Lack of support and required patching will never see the light of day because, why not? They got your money and there's nothing more they have to worry about. the company will produce new games and this generation will have moved on and forgotten all about these games that have been tossed into the bargain bin.

That's the great thing about the gaming industry. Suckers are literally born every day. New generations to drop their paychecks on unfinished, terrible-quality games just to drop into oblivion never to be spoken of again. Rinse, repeat, profit.

[Sgt Scyther]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.
My problem isn't with Liz. She's just doing her job and saying what she's told to say. No one can really fault her for that.

My problem is with 2K who have basically been yanking our chains this whole time. They led us into believing they were working on these patches, keeping us in the dark, and after all this time waiting and waiting it turns out nothing is coming after all. And they give some kind of bs excuse to try to justify it. We shouldn't just bend over, accept it, and move on. While no one should be attacking Liz for this, 2K Marin should know how upset their fanbase is about this.

The vending machine voices, while trivial, have been talked about since the game launched. Minerva's Den was announced for the PC and now it's nowhere to be seen. And the Rapture Metro maps can't be played unless everyone in the lobby has them, which the odds of that are slim to none.

2K Marin has a lost a lot of respect and handled this situation poorly. And they should be made aware of that.

[EricHalfBee]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

Well I certainly won't rant at you but I'd question your idea that to complain is to waste time. Complaining is a way to show a company that it has made a mistake and crucially also gives it a chance to rectify that mistake. Good companies appreciate complaints, as long as they are constructive and to the point. Of course not everything in this long thread meets that condition but each person makes their point in their own way.

Perhaps it's the number of complaints you're objecting to? But consider, each individual complaint only takes minutes to make. Single complaints can too easily be dismissed as the work of the odd crank or someone who just loves to moan about anything. So weight of complaints is actually important. I suspect we'd agree that we certainly see that here.

Put it this way. If a restaurant burnt my dinner, I'd tell them. It wouldn't matter to me if ten others already had. If I owned the restaurant and saw a queue of people waiting to complain; three customer shouting and swearing; a few heading for the exits refusing to pay and people at the door taking a look and turning away.. well, I'd know I had a problem!

One point I can certainly agree on is that life is far too short to actually get angry about this. But complain? Absolutely! Complain and make your view known to 2K. It's not pointless.

[NickM]

I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

It's obviously too late for BS2, but if the forums become filled with critical posts over this then it might make 2K decide that the damage to public relations (and hence lost sales) for future games is so great that they should allocate a proper line of funds to support post-launch patching and cross-platform DLC. No games company wants forums filled with disappointed and angry customers because it drives away sales. The one thing that would guarentee BS2-levels of disinterest and evasion from 2K in future is if the community just rolls over and meekly accepts whatever decisions 2K make.

Of course, in the end 2K will probably win because gamers are always after the next big thing and missing patches or DLC soon fade from memory. My guess is that that's what they hope - and they may well be right.

[FireyFate]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

Well, one reason for being here is to remind everyone of this debacle.

For instance, my fellow outraged people might like to know that Wired.com just ran an article about Duke Nukem Forever. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/10/duke-nukem-demo/

I was sure to leave a comment informing readers about 2k's recent less than stellar performance. I suggest everyone else here does the same.

Together we can be sure that not a single news article related to 2k goes by without the truth being told.

[cardboardvalise]

I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.


if Elizbaeth convinces 2K to refund customers of the multiplayer DLC, or offers gamers unhappy with the unfixed bugs of the SP game a trade-in on another game, since they're refusing refunding and not fixing the game, that'd make me happy.

i don't see a downside to customers complaining about bad service. it makes an impact on the company's future customers!

[Kleetus]

we stand behind our product

No you don't, they're just empty words and rhetoric. :rolleyes:

Not releasing a PC patch, that was supposedly planned and worked on for months, isn't standing behind your product.

Releasing a bug-fest of a game, acknowledging the problems on your own site, then ignoring the issues and your customers, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising DLC, then not delivering, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising and not delivering, ala Mafia II, then selling it by instalments, isn't standing behind your product.

It's comments like "we stand behind our product" that makes people irate, you have to be kidding.....

[ohstallion]

No you don't, they're just empty words and rhetoric. :rolleyes:

Not releasing a PC patch, that was supposedly planned and worked on for months, isn't standing behind your product.

Releasing a bug-fest of a game, acknowledging the problems on your own site, then ignoring the issues and your customers, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising DLC, then not delivering, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising and not delivering, ala Mafia II, then selling it by instalments, isn't standing behind your product.

It's comments like "we stand behind our product" that makes people irate, you have to be kidding.....


we should definitely be angry at 2K and everyone involved in this PR debacle (no one there can say they handled this well), but let's not waste this anger simply venting on this board - I've mentioned it a few times already (apologies for repeating, but I really want to keep the pressure on), but please keep sending these emails to Take Two and getting as many other folks to send as well! Two minutes to just copy and paste, maybe a little more if you want to add any other grievances. Already seen this pop up in lots of other forums and think we got some momentum...

****COPY AND PASTE (AND SIGN!) STARTING BELOW******

To: Meg Maise
Investor Relations/Corporate Communications
E-mail: meg.maise@take2games.com


Dear Meg,

As a Bioshock 2 customer, I am outraged that 2K has decided to not release additional DLC content for the PC (namely Minerva's Den).

I find this upsetting for several reasons:

1) In 2K's original announcement for Minerva's Den, 2K stated that a PC release was forthcoming - to backtrack on a statement like that constitutes a broken promise and hurts 2K's overall credibility and public image for all users.

2) More importantly, by your actions you're telling the PC market that we don't matter. If this is truly how 2K Games feels, then just come out and say so. As PC users we'll simply make sure not to purchase your games if we're to be treated as second-class citizens. And as much as we like the Bioshock universe, you should already start cutting back your projections for Bioshock Infinite if this is the half-hearted support you intend to provide for that title as well.

I do not know what sort of flawed cost / benefit analysis went into your decision-making process, but based on the anger and the number of responses I've seen in comments posted on numerous websites (including 2K Forums), I think you are being short-sighted in thinking that a PC release would not be worth the time or effort. I have read the extremely positive reviews for Minerva's Den and would have even prepaid for the DLC if 2K needed to guarantee a certain level of downloads to ensure profitability. Instead 2K has hurt its own image by handling this issue in such a haphazard fashion.

I urge you to reconsider your decision and rebuild your trust with your customers - they're your ultimate stakeholders, not the shareholders, and will decide the ultimate success of Take Two Interactive as a company.

Best Regards,
[Your Name]

[Electro-Bolt]

It's an outrage that we are being told by 2k that it won't do anything to correct its mistake. I wouldn't care if the DLC maps had been free, but we actually had to pay for this.

The DLC was released even though the developers were aware that buyers would be utterly disappointed because they wouldn't be able to actually use what they bought. And after all this time, we're given the lame excuse that a playlist won't be created because of "technical and timing issues"?

It was your fault that the DLC was flawed in the first place. We don't care how much money/time 2k needs to invest into this issue, but it needs to be corrected. As customers, we have every right to make this demand.

We can't just be taken advantage of like this. The DLC might be virtual, but when people pay for something with real money, they expect something in exchange.

As another member posted earlier, "do the right thing".

[drprofessor]

There is absolutely something she can say that will please me. She can give us specifics on the technical and timing issues that are preventing the bug fixes and DLC release. Otherwise it's nothing but a dismissive, hand-waving response with which I have no reason to be satisfied. Hand-waving responses like this are insulting and disrespectful to us as the customers.


I don't know what more Elizabeth can do to please any of you.

It's obvious that no matter what she says, no one is going to be happy.

It's not going to be released. It's time to move on. Patronizing and asking pointless questions isn't really necessary. You're wasting you're own time. Sure it sucks A LOT that this whole thing happened, and it took way to long to get answers, but really now, what is the point of dragging this on and on. It's only frustrating you more.

It's quite clear that nothing anyone says is going to help you people move on from this whole thing, and I know me posting this is pointless because I'm sure it'll get several ranting reply's. In short, it sucks that this whole thing happened, but what can be done at this point? NOTHING. So just think about it like that. All the time and energy you put into complaining about something that can't be changed is just pointless.

[AK Downfall]

So I'm guessing this is an existing user who made this new account to troll freely. Pretty sad and pathetic.

Really your IP should just get banned after this.
Its a smart spam bot.....im surprsied how much technology has become in the last year.

[2K Elizabeth]

Hi guys,

The mods are removing (and members are reporting) indecent and insulting posts. While these aren't on the forums anymore, if you guys can't clean up your act, this thread will be shut down. I think it would be an extreme pity that badly photoshopped and/or pornographic images of the team would be the reason this very valid and important thread gets shut down.

I don't want that. So please, stop being childish.

[Kleetus]

this thread will be shut down

Big deal, it's not like you or 2K care.

[FireyFate]

Big deal, it's not like you or 2K care.

We can always pretend... like we've been doing for 8 months.

[2K Elizabeth]

Big deal, it's not like you or 2K care.

Actually, I do. Otherwise, I wouldn't be chatting with you at 7 PM and posting throughout the day when I'm not in the office.

I understand the outrage, and I'm not one to go against it. I'm not going to silence you guys advocating letter writing or voicing your anger, frustration, or anything else. Just be responsible and be adult. Act with dignity. If you want your voice heard, do it in a respectful manner.

Bringing the heads of my company the numerous letters than call me a plethora of names is not going to help anyone's cause and it doesn't make your agenda legitimate at all. I appreciate enormously the letters and PMs I've gotten that do clearly voice why people are upset and how they feel - and those will be sent along. Please, use them as an example.

Thanks.

[dunre646]

how can us pc gamers trust that this wouldn't happen again with x-com or duke nuken forever?

[2K Elizabeth]

how can us pc gamers trust that this wouldn't happen again with x-com or duke nuken forever?

You can write me about those worries clearly and concisely so I can send them to management. Trust me, it's already something that's been discussed, but having the words of gamers behind me is always a good thing - 2KElizabeth@2KGames.com is my email.

[dunre646]

You can write me about those worries clearly and concisely so I can send them to management. Trust me, it's already something that's been discussed, but having the words of gamers behind me is always a good thing - 2KElizabeth@2KGames.com is my email.

i will, thank you

[Exelias]

Still upset but she is obviously putting forward some kind of effort you can never be sure if someones motives are altruistic or not. I for one am honestly willing to give her the benefit of a little trust, though I still do not trust 2k the company at all anymore. It seems like they care less and less for their customers a bad path many companies have gone down before and faded away.

[FireyFate]

Still upset but she is obviously putting forward some kind of effort you can never be sure if someones motives are altruistic or not.

Well, so far we have voiced our opinions for 8 months, and gotten nearly nothing we politely asked for... things that were not unreasonable, and things we were told were being worked on.

I've seen nothing to make me think this isn't just a further attempt to humor and pacify the crowd.

The military taught me not to believe anything until I see results, and I'm betting my belief will be suspended indefinitely.

[Kleetus]

how can us pc gamers trust that this wouldn't happen again with x-com or duke nuken forever?

It will. The best way to judge future behaviour is with past behaviour.

2K have clearly shown they only care about one thing, money.

[dunre646]

It will. The best way to judge future behaviour is with past behaviour.

2K have clearly shown they only care about one thing, money.

money is the reason i was thinking, the pc version didn't sale enough copies to justify porting over the dlc

[Kleetus]

money is the reason i was thinking, the pc version didn't sale enough copies to justify porting over the dlc

I don't think sales has anything to do with it, at least as far as the patch is concerned.

There's no money to be made in patches.

Regarding the DLC, it would have been pretty much finished as it was almost due for release.

And poor sales wouldn't have been the reason, as they would have known the sales figures before and during the DLC's development.

They wouldn't have spent months on it, then at the finish line cancel it, because of poor sales figures of the game that they knew beforehand.

[akskiller]

This sucks so bad. I had my game on hold because of the HUD issues, looping sound and no vending machine noise until a patch was released to fix all of this. Reading this made me uninstall the game. Thanks 2k.

[tleloc]

close this thread silence everyone, hide the truth. It wont matter all of 2k marins lies are gonna catch up with them.

Liz do you know if we can get our money back for the metro pack?
I need it to buy limbo, I know ill play it more than the "new" maps in metro.

I have asked this question more than 3 times can you please answer me.

[radios]

seriously, and with all due respect, if you don't have a coder capable of fixing the game in 8 MONTHS, you need to hire one!. if the source code was released, it would be fixed in a month or less by a fan of the game that is a decent coder!. something isn't right here!. don't 2k games have decent coders there?. seriously now!.

[Lovesick]

Here is a perfectly valid, polite and reasonable question:

Is a patch being worked on for the PC? A yes or no answer will suffice.

If the answer is no, please explain in terms other than technical or timing issues.

[63jax]

buahahaha, don't be foolish she is just trying to change our opinion about 2k and how amazing this company really is and how we don't understand it. don't believe anything she says, she's working for them, maybe will do the same thing...they will still don't care about future projects for pc. if they are not capable to do a patch then how da' ☺☺☺☺ could they make a new, well made, polished game?
i can't understand why don't hey stick only with consoles(pfuui) and not wasting their time with pc's as long as they're not capable of doing the job well.:p

[ohstallion]

that email template for the email campaign to Take Two (see my previous post - 2K Liz doesn't want me repeating) specifically addressed Minerva's Den and neglect of the PC market, but anyone / everyone here should also feel free to amend to include all these other issues as well, such as lack of good patches, sale of a faulty product (Rapture metro pack), ongoing delays / broken promises for fixes, etc - sometimes these divisions don't really tell the parent company about all the issues they're having with their customers (division heads trying to cover their behinds), so please in addition to respectfully venting your anger on these boards, please do take two minutes to copy, paste, amend, and sign that email and send to Take Two!!!!

AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD! just realized that a whole bunch of european PC gamers are getting p'd off about this issue - Europe and Australia usually has more PCs than consoles - if anyone can get on those sites / blogs and tell them about this campaign and get them to represent that'd be great too.

THANK YOU!!!



Here is a perfectly valid, polite and reasonable question:

Is a patch being worked on for the PC? A yes or no answer will suffice.

If the answer is no, please explain in terms other than technical or timing issues.

[Moldy Clay]

What it all comes down to is that 2K Marin only cares about money. There's been no public announcement about the fact they aren't doing any/most of this stuff and they almost definitely purposely held off on saying this to us. They just wanted the $10 for the maps and for us to move on.

I mean, they charged $5 for less than 1MB worth of code/download for content already on the disc. I still can't get over that.


We really deserve a refund. You can complain about 'disrespect' on the forums all you want, but this is disrespectful to all of the people who actually supported BioShock 2, waited all these months hoping for a patch and bought all of the DLC and stuff.


Spotted -

As always, being respectful will yield you better results. If people are insulting while asking questions, I'm not going to answer them. Same with a question that's already been answered or is trollish.

I've made several posts here to answer everyone's questions and will continue to post where necessary, when necessary. Our tech support hasn't changed at all, and we'll continue to support people through email, phone, and by contact me or one of the community managers regardless of issue. If you do have issues, contact me.

As for your questions about Microsoft and 2K Marin, I don't think you are looking for an honest answer there - we support our developers as they support us and claiming Microsoft "hobbled" anything is in the realm of trolling.

Thanks.

Here's the problem with this. You didn't answer any of those questions, and none of them were out of line or disrespectful.

Specifically, why is there no official announcement for everyone on the Cult of Rapture site or a sticky post in the forums?

And does 2K Marin intend to refund or compensate all of the users who wasted $10 (or $5 during the deal of the week) on this DLC and have been unable to play any of the 6 new maps? Or are you honestly going to sit there and be totally okay with stealing our money?

Seriously. I do not see how you can't offer refunds to people who bought the DLC. It's just absurd.

[philheckler]

Hang your head in shame 2k - have you no pride in your work and morals that you can you can apologise profusely to the community about forgetting the vending machine sounds and then almost 8 months later after stringing people along say they will never be included....

For me Bioshock 2 was one of the biggest gaming let down's ever - i really 'got' Bio1 and as soon as i played b2 i could see from the downgraded visuals that something had really gone amis..

i'd really have to think very hard about another 2k purchase in the future...

[V10]

I can't believe we're not even getting a patch. The game is broken plain and simple. I don't give a damn about DLC, just let me play the game I've paid money for.

[Dragonknight]

Stand behind your product? Like Mafia 2? Bioshock 2? Civ 5? Each needs serious patching yet isn't getting it. Sure you stand behind your product: as far away as you can.

You say you are honest. Big laugh there. Like Kleetus said (post #373):

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2K Elizabeth View Post
_we stand behind our product_
No you don't, they're just empty words and rhetoric.

Not releasing a PC patch, that was supposedly planned and worked on for months, isn't standing behind your product.

Releasing a bug-fest of a game, acknowledging the problems on your own site, then ignoring the issues and your customers, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising DLC, then not delivering, isn't standing behind your product.

Promising and not delivering, ala Mafia II, then selling it by instalments, isn't standing behind your product.

It's comments like "we stand behind our product" that makes people irate, you have to be kidding....."

That shows honesty? That is a good example of dishonesty. You also haven't properly answered the questions people have been asking. You gave sort-of answers which didn't answer much. Also, what you said here is silly: "Bringing the heads of my company the numerous letters than call me a plethora of names is not going to help anyone's cause and it doesn't make your agenda legitimate at all." Guess what? Being mostly polite for 8 freaking months didn't do a damn bit of good. What's left for the fans to be but outraged? 2K clearly doesn't give a rat's ass about their games or the customers. The games are practically abandonware.

I've already contacted Gearbox and told them that because of 2K Games pitiful support of their games, that I will not be buying Duke Nukem Forever. You'll probably cut that game up too, and sell it as DLC.

[Nebular]

BioShock 2 was such a huge disappointment (OK, the first one was, too, but shame on me for foolishly buying BS2). After the poor game and the terrible lack of support for PC users, you can be sure I won't be pissing away any more money on the BioShock franchise.

[MauroR]

I'm a bit saddened by the "biscuit" comment, but I understand your frustration. And yes, I know how to talk to people so I don't promise things I can't deliver, but the reason I didn't give you anything one way or another is because we were still exploring options and the decision hadn't been finalized yet. I'm not one to put people on a rollercoaster - when things became less certain, I let people know that I didn't have any info one way or another.

Again, in an ideal world, I could have given you guys an answer, definitively, to every question as soon as it was asked. I'm sorry for the delays, and I understand those of you who wanted this content and area sad that you can't play it - which is why I wanted to get you this news as soon as it was finalized.

Please try to be polite and respectful, though. Taking low blows at me, the dev team, or anyone else isn't going to help anything.

Thanks.

Stupid useless ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺, you can't talk about respect when you've been the first to fool us all. You're a bunch of useless liars. At least use your brain before saying even more ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺.

[Mearl]

So, Liz, what about the questions now?

Let's get them one by one, maybe then you see more easily which you did not answer:

Where is the refund for players who threw 10 Dollars out of the window for a map pack they weren't able to use because of your "timing issues"?

Where is the official statement from a 2k representative, someone who really has a say in this (so obviously not you) that makes it plain and clear that BS2 is now a product no longer supported for PC?

You did not answer these questions - so don't claim otherwise.

[Electro-Bolt]

Most people are posting a lot of well thought out constructive statements, but the few who are behaving like immature, foul mouthed idiots are just making the situation worst than it already is.

Calm yourselves down and remember that Elizabeth is just the messenger. She's not one of the developers who ignored the obvious problems with the DLC and who decided to not make patches after having promised them to us.

We might still be able to make a difference and get the developers to go back to Bioshock 2 to fix these issues. I don't care if it's wishful thinking but it's the best we can do at this point.

[SpottedPattern]

Actually, I do. Otherwise, I wouldn't be chatting with you at 7 PM and posting throughout the day when I'm not in the office.

I understand the outrage, and I'm not one to go against it. I'm not going to silence you guys advocating letter writing or voicing your anger, frustration, or anything else. Just be responsible and be adult. Act with dignity. If you want your voice heard, do it in a respectful manner.

Bringing the heads of my company the numerous letters than call me a plethora of names is not going to help anyone's cause and it doesn't make your agenda legitimate at all. I appreciate enormously the letters and PMs I've gotten that do clearly voice why people are upset and how they feel - and those will be sent along. Please, use them as an example.

Thanks.

How about you please point the suits at this thread for starters, and then this one http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85465 and the many many other threads ranting justifiably about 2K Marin's bad handling of PC users, plus then point them at all the online publications rightly pointing out that 2K Marin have done something badly wrong.

If they're of a sensitive nature then tell them that all of the ire, vitriole, name calling and childishness is simply karma, if PC users felt a real sense of support and respect from 2K then the same would be forthcoming the other way, i.e. you reap what you s0w.

If showing them this infomation already readily available makes a difference then we'll know that it's worthwhile doing as you're asking, you're the community manager you have all the bad feedback this issue is generating at your disposal, plus searching round for moments will garner much more, please take this to the suits.

Personally I think your post(s) are just more platittudes passed down from upon high as 8 months worth of threads, posts and forum feedback have made no difference so far or haven't gotten in front of the suits, so I don't imagine that's changing any time soon, otherwise 2K would NOT have pulled this stunt or known better in the first place, this present outcome simply ratifies that 2K don't give a toss about PC users.

The community has been trying to get their message through but it hasn't made any difference, I think it's time that 2K come to the table if they have any intention of changing theirs minds, otherwise the ranting may as well continue for everyone to see and read.

PS

(Admittedly I doubt this message will garner any consideration from 2K to engage in a meaningful way with the community as opposed to the way the past 8 months have gone and specifcally the past few days since the announcement, plus I t expect this post to be read, just check the title of the thread for justification).

[ohstallion]

have all you angry posters submitted your angry emails to meg.maise@take2games.com (head of investor relations and corporate communications) and spread the word out yet? make sure to keep the pressure up and send those emails out (and get others to join the cause!)

the anger on this board should continue but shouldn't be the only avenue





How about you point the suits at this thread for starters, and then this one http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85465 and probably the many many other threads ranting justifiably about 2K Marin's bad handling of PC users, plus then point them at all the online publications rightly pointing out that 2K Marin have done something badly wrong.

If that makes a difference then we'll know that it's worthwhile doing as you're asking, you're the community manager you have all the bad feedback this issue is generating at your disposal, plus searching round for moments will garner much more, take this to the suits.

Personally I think your post(s) are just more meaningless platittudes passed down from upon high as 8 months worth of threads, posts and forum feedback have made no difference so far or haven't gotten in front of the suits, so I don't imagine that's changing any time soon, otherwise 2K would NOT have pulled this stunt or known better in the first place, this present outcome simply ratifies that 2K don't give a toss about PC users.

The community has been trying to get their message through but it hasn't, I think it's time that 2K come to the table if they have any intention of changing theirs minds, otherwise the ranting may as well continue for everyone to see and read.

PS

[nbajammer]

have all you angry posters submitted your angry emails to meg.maise@take2games.com (head of investor relations and corporate communications) and spread the word out yet? make sure to keep the pressure up and send those emails out (and get others to join the cause!)

the anger on this board should continue but shouldn't be the only avenue

I don't think we need to be constantly reminded of this. It's there, for those who wish to send an e-mail. And that's assuming she can do anything at all anyway.

[Zuzax]

Calm yourselves down and remember that Elizabeth is just the messenger. She's not one of the developers who ignored the obvious problems with the DLC and who decided to not make patches after having promised them to us.We have no way of knowing what - if anything - was ever communicated to the developers, or at least whether or not it was communicated to the developers in a timely manner. My experience is when someone says "we can't tell you our internal process" they actually mean "we don't really have any internal processes. Things just sort of happen."

Six months of "looking for answers" may well turn out to be six months of not communicating the bugs to development, then dumping it on them all at once, to which any reasonable manager would have reason to push back.

Sure it's speculation, but since our "community voice" will only speak to us in content-free happy-talk, it's as accurate as any other information coming out of 2K. The path of least resistance here isn't some evil plot to screw over customers, it's most likely someone along the way just not doing their job very well.

[SpottedPattern]

Re: Zuzax - there is much sense in your post and more than likely at least a few grains of truth, I've seen people put things off for months at a time, constantly being economical with the truth, until they finally just give up the charade and that's in the game dev' and publishing industry that I've worked in for 10+ years.

[TAK The Voyager]

It's nice to see an update, I'll keep checking back, I'd love to play those new maps.

TAK

[duckdudetom]

No screw that I'm not being reasonable and polite. We totally got ☺☺☺☺ed over

[Zuzax]

No screw that I'm not being reasonable and polite. We totally got ☺☺☺☺ed overDon't give 2K an excuse to lock and bury this thread. Speak the truth but be cordial about it so it stays alive.

[2K Elizabeth]

We have no way of knowing what - if anything - was ever communicated to the developers, or at least whether or not it was communicated to the developers in a timely manner. My experience is when someone says "we can't tell you our internal process" they actually mean "we don't really have any internal processes. Things just sort of happen."

Six months of "looking for answers" may well turn out to be six months of not communicating the bugs to development, then dumping it on them all at once, to which any reasonable manager would have reason to push back.

Sure it's speculation, but since our "community voice" will only speak to us in content-free happy-talk, it's as accurate as any other information coming out of 2K. The path of least resistance here isn't some evil plot to screw over customers, it's most likely someone along the way just not doing their job very well.

Zuzax -

I can tell you without hesitation that what you are saying is 100% untrue. The developers often post on these forums (Jordan is around quite frequently - he posted after the game's launch in a couple threads and answered questions.) I don't think hearing about my email chains with our various departments would be of any use to anyone, but the dev team, product development, community, marketing, and public relations are all in lock step and have been aware of all your feedback since before the game came out.

Please be sure not to spread misinformation to the contrary as that could be very confusing to newcomers who are looking for valid information - which I know you are very interested in bringing to them just as much as I am.

Thanks.

[gbrading]

Illegitimi non carborundum.

In the words of Elvis Costello, "Everything means less than zero." :(

[FireyFate]

I can tell you without hesitation that what you are saying is 100% untrue.

I'm pretty sure the whole message of his post was that we have no way of believing what is or isn't true from 2k... so when a representative of the company in question says anything is 100% anything, it doesn't make a lick of difference.

After hearing that these things were being worked on, and that the DLCs were coming, followed by a whole lot of time killing rhetoric, then suddenly "timing and technical" whatever stopped it... we have little reason to believe anything we hear from 2k. Do you blame us for that? Can you not understand why we are skeptical?

[dunre646]

Elizabeth, you would have to agree that 2k's actions are not inline with your claim the 2k stand behinds their product

[FireyFate]

Elizabeth, you would have to agree that 2k's actions are not inline with your claim the 2k stand behinds their product

They stand behind it... as it stutters and twitches on the floor.

[Zuzax]

I'm pretty sure the whole message of his post was that we have no way of believing what is or isn't true from 2k... so when a representative of the company in question says anything is 100% anything, it doesn't make a lick of difference. Winner. :)

[SpottedPattern]

Unfortunately 2K need to give us some tangible empirical way to see they are listening and giving accurate verifiable information, until that occurs once, twice or more then the community at large will look at anything said/posted as immediately dubious and questionable.

(Now 2K don't get on your high horses, please, as this is a corner you've painted yourselves into, if you were entirely innocent then the community would have no justifiable reasons to be as angry at you, 2K, as they are).

[SpottedPattern]

Unfortunately 2K need to give us some tangible empirical way to see they are listening and giving accurate verifiable information, until that occurs once, twice or more then the community at large will look at anything said/posted as immediately dubious and questionable.

(Now 2K don't get on your high horses, please, as this is a corner you've painted yourselves into, if you were entirely innocent then the community would have no justifiable reasons to be as angry at you, 2K, as they are).

Just a thought - 2K can start by providing a more exact explanation as to why Bioshock 2 is no longer supported on the PC ? that would be of great help.

[L_J]

Elizabeth and the rest of the 2K staff have pretty much given PC users all the middle finger i bet they blame piracy :rolleyes: because its an easy target

So Elizabeth answer me this then if no patches are planned what to do with the game crashing for users? or cant your staff be "bothered" to fix it eh

[2K Elizabeth]

Elizabeth and the rest of the 2K staff have pretty much given PC users all the middle finger i bet they blame piracy :rolleyes: because its an easy target

So Elizabeth answer me this then if no patches are planned what to do with the game crashing for users? or cant your staff be "bothered" to fix it eh

If your game is crashing, you can email me at 2KElizabeth@2KGames.com or usa@take2support.com and we can try and trouble shoot.

[badsmed]

Elizabeth, when is Bioshock2 gonna be pulled from Steam? Surely you don`t want to continue to sell an unsupported game.

[wilk0r]

Please be sure not to spread misinformation to the contrary as that could be very confusing to newcomers who are looking for valid information - which I know you are very interested in bringing to them just as much as I am.

If the entirety of that information consists of saying "There is no information, now or ever.", that's kind of, well... fail.

Saying you couldn't release a patch or DLCs due to "technical and timing issues" has the same logical structure of saying a car accident occurred because of "wheel and road issues". There is no information in these statements, they beg the question: "Orly? Which technical and timing issues were those?".

So...

a) re. Tech and timing issues - Which?
b) re. PC Support - Where?
c) re. 'Official Outstanding Issues' (thread title) - Why?

[L_J]

If your game is crashing, you can email me at 2KElizabeth@2KGames.com or usa@take2support.com and we can try and trouble shoot.

Troubleshoot what though? the problem is with the game always happens in bioshock 2 play it for 30mins or more and it stops responding no other game i have will do this


Faulting application name: BioShock2.exe, version: 1.0.0.1, time stamp: 0x4be4636d
Faulting module name: BioShock2.exe, version: 1.0.0.1, time stamp: 0x4be4636d
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x002f25e2
Faulting process id: 0x724
Faulting application start time: 0x01cb6a5a9ce7001a
Faulting application path: C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\BioShock 2\SP\Builds\Binaries\BioShock2.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\BioShock 2\SP\Builds\Binaries\BioShock2.exe




Fault bucket 1880456713, type 1
Event Name: APPCRASH
Response: Not available
Cab Id: 0

Problem signature:
P1: BioShock2.exe
P2: 1.0.0.1
P3: 4be4636d
P4: BioShock2.exe
P5: 1.0.0.1
P6: 4be4636d
P7: c0000005
P8: 002f25e2
P9:
P10:

Attached files:
C:\Users\Lee\AppData\Local\Temp\WER993B.tmp.WERInt ernalMetadata.xml

These files may be available here:
C:\Users\Lee\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows\WER\R eportArchive\AppCrash_BioShock2.exe_7adf58b680b4ba 3a2ada57e04a88c4c4d36afb74_0e53f07e

Analysis symbol:
Rechecking for solution: 0
Report Id: 823499a7-d657-11df-ad82-001a4d5eb37b

Why bother if its not going to be fixed?

[Drez]

Can someone please explain to me the issue with the DLC that apparently doesn't work? I never bothered buying any of the DLC, are you saying it literally doesn't work at all? It isn't usable at all?

Also, is this DLC still purchasable? Can someone, today, buy BioShock 2 and then go on to purchase this completely unusable DLC?

If so, that is excessively shady and definitely illegal on the part of 2k. Not only is it theft to sell a defective product to someone and then shrug and say "we're not fixing it and you can't have a refund either" but to then not announce to potential new customers that the DLC doesn't work and to not pull it from "the shelf" either is, well, ludicrous. It's like selling snake oil.

If that is really what is going on, I'd say that is lawsuit territory. I am not aware of any country where it is legal to knowingly sell broken products to people.

Liz, you say you want "constructive" arguments only at this point, but that is impossible. The game is broken, your company has very blatantly lied to us and strung us along while patronizing us for two-thirds of a year. If the aforementioned DLC being sold doesn't work at all, 2k is also actively engaging in theft. While I don't condone insulting you on a personal level, there is no longer any room for constructive discourse here. The only "constructive" end any consumer here ever wanted to reach was getting the game and/or DLC fixed. After eight months of waiting, we've been told that we might as well stop holding our breath. There is nothing constructive left to say. It's not our job to make 2k Marin/2k Games/whoever act like a reputable company. That's what integrity is. That's what business ethics are for.

Please, please stop insulting us. That's about the only constructive thing I can say at this point. Every time I read another post from you I literally cringe. You've said dozens of times "our intent is/was not to insult you" but we have been insulted continually for the last eight months, by every reasonable definition of the word. I find this whole "play dumb" routine to be exceedingly insulting. How stupid does 2k Marin think we are? It seems to me that 2k Marin thinks its potential customers are pretty stupid, and that is the most obnoxious thing about all this.

Sure, we held on for eight months. Naive? Maybe. Desperately hopeful? Sure. But we're not stupid. Anyone aware of even 10% of what's gone on on this forum for the last eight months knows exactly what is going on here, and the truth is that 2k Marin has been excessively shady throughout this entire span of time. I just don't have the time or strength to enumerate everything wrong with this BioShock 2 debacle, but it starts about 10 days before the game even came out, when you posted an article on Cult of Rapture in which someone from BioShock 2's...team...stated explicitly that the HUD and menu stretching people running the game in 16x10 and 5x4 resolutions currently experience would not be an issue. That complete falsehood was advertised before the game even came out. That right there should be enough to throw the book at your company, but we have dozens of additional examples of incompetence and haphazard disrespect to this community and the consumer base over the next eight and a half months.

This whole thing is ludicrous.

[Codex]

Drez -

It depends on how you define "unusable." The Metro Map pack is only playable if all the people in the lobby have the DLC. Unfortunately, the match making system doesn't seem to match people on this variable (from what I've read - I never got the DLC and didn't play the MP for long), meaning that it makes it very hard to play the DLC in open matches and, thusly, get the achievements associated with it.

They can still be played in closed matches, so long as everyone in the lobby has the content. They aren't often accessible in online rotation.

EDIT: I should note this is the multiplayer DLC, which was avaliable on all the systems. The Protector Trials and Minervas Den, which were released for 360 and PS3 aren't being released for PC, which is another big issue here.

[2K Elizabeth]

Drez -

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed. Based on feedback, we explored the option of adding in a playlist but ended up not being able to.

I agree that being able to give you guys these answers in a shorter time frame would have been better and that it took a long time to reach a final conclusion. I promise you, that's not lost on me, and it's something I'm working on making sure doesn't happen again.

I can't always bring good news, but I am going to try and make sure the process is better for you guys in the future.

Hope that clears things up for you.

[tleloc]

Drez -

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed. Based on feedback, we explored the option of adding in a playlist but ended up not being able to.

I agree that being able to give you guys these answers in a shorter time frame would have been better and that it took a long time to reach a final conclusion. I promise you, that's not lost on me, and it's something I'm working on making sure doesn't happen again.

I can't always bring good news, but I am going to try and make sure the process is better for you guys in the future.

Hope that clears things up for you.


Haha, The maps are broken we cannot play on them stop telling lies to us.

Metro maps are broken
Metro maps are broken

WE CANNOT PLAY ON THEM on xbox live

[AK Downfall]

Haha, The maps are broken we cannot play on them stop telling lies to us.

Metro maps are broken
Metro maps are broken

WE CANNOT PLAY ON THEM on xbox live
....We is a pretty broad word...Cause i can play on them just fine...

[Kalysm]

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed.

I would say that any DLC with achievements that cannot be achieved within weeks or months of gameplay (when it is no reflection on the abilities or time invested by the player) is not working as intended. An answer that has been given to us was to play the maps in private matches, yet a couple of the achievements specifically require non-private matches to be played on the new maps. This would indicate that, unless the developers specifically expected to see the playerbase squirm, such an oversight classifies the Rapture Metro Pack as broken.

[Drez]

Drez -

It depends on how you define "unusable." The Metro Map pack is only playable if all the people in the lobby have the DLC. Unfortunately, the match making system doesn't seem to match people on this variable (from what I've read - I never got the DLC and didn't play the MP for long), meaning that it makes it very hard to play the DLC in open matches and, thusly, get the achievements associated with it.

They can still be played in closed matches, so long as everyone in the lobby has the content. They aren't often accessible in online rotation.

EDIT: I should note this is the multiplayer DLC, which was avaliable on all the systems. The Protector Trials and Minervas Den, which were released for 360 and PS3 aren't being released for PC, which is another big issue here.

Thank you, the issue is clearer now.



Drez -

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed. Based on feedback, we explored the option of adding in a playlist but ended up not being able to.

I agree that being able to give you guys these answers in a shorter time frame would have been better and that it took a long time to reach a final conclusion. I promise you, that's not lost on me, and it's something I'm working on making sure doesn't happen again.

I can't always bring good news, but I am going to try and make sure the process is better for you guys in the future.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Liz, I just want to reiterate that I know you aren't the one making the (in my opinion) terrible company decisions here. I think the phrase "a comedy of errors" fits here, at least from my perspective - as an invested consumer and fan that has been here from the beginning.

I am glad you are taking our criticisms of the company to heart and I hope you understand that we are all just extremely frustrated, disheartened, and disillusioned by all the waiting and ultimate disappointment. Most of us are hurling the brunt of our ire at you because, well, you are the community liaison here and we have no other point of contact. If I ever insulted you personally, I do apologize for that. I'm sure most of the people here at least subconsciously know you are the Mouth of Sauron and not Sauron himself (forgive the nerdy allusion).

But really, at this point, it's hard to think of 2k and not feel an almost inexpressible rage. If you communicate anything back to your company, please communicate that - I know I am not the only person that feels like this. It seems counterproductive to not only alienate a core group of fans in what promises to be a budding, farmable intellectual property (i.e. BioShock), but to further spend eight full months conditioning this fanbase to think upon 2k with anger and disappointment instead of fondness.

[Dragonknight]

Whoa there, 2K Liz. 2K couldn't make a playlist? That is pure laziness. Have you ever heard of Unreal Tournament (1999)? A player could take maps in one window and drag them into another. That became the playlist. Somehow, 2K Games can't do now what Epic Games did back in 1999? That is nothing but laziness (or incredibly bad programming).

Also, you are still ignoring very valid questions asked by posters. They have asked for answers other than your vague ones that don't really answer anything. Yet you claim you want to make things better? You aren't making them better so far.

[FireyFate]

Whoa there, 2K Liz. 2K couldn't make a playlist? That is pure laziness. Have you ever heard of Unreal Tournament (1999)? A player could take maps in one window and drag them into another. That became the playlist. Somehow, 2K Games can't do now what Epic Games did back in 1999? That is nothing but laziness (or incredibly bad programming).

I wouldn't even want something that complex... just make the matchmaking take into account whether or not you have the DLC, and try to match you with others who have it.


Also, you are still ignoring very valid questions asked by posters. They have asked for answers other than your vague ones that don't really answer anything. Yet you claim you want to make things better? You aren't making them better so far.
But dude... everything was canceled "due to technical and timing issues." Don't you see how crystal clear that answer is?

[mysterd]

Elizabeth, when is Bioshock2 gonna be pulled from Steam? Surely you don`t want to continue to sell an unsupported game.

I really kind of hate to say this - but, I honestly don't know why 2K just don't ditch G4WL entirely. G4WL is just....junk, honestly - in its current state. I'd honestly love to see Microsoft overhaul the life out of that program and improve the heck out of it - especially since Fable 3 is supposed to be coming to the PC and all.

Maybe that's why 2K has Civ 5 and Mafia 2 using Steam...

I can only wonder if Bioshock 2 was using Steam-Only - like Civ 5 and Mafia 2 now do - if they'd even think about bringing ALL the DLC, including Minerva's Den and Protector's Trials DLC, to Steam. I can't see why not - since Steam has such a big user and fanbase, anyways.

Plus, Steam actually puts DLC at reduced sale prices A LOT.

[drprofessor]

Elizabeth,

This was actually a somewhat straightforward and refreshing response. Thank you. I think more of these straight answers will help.

Can we get more specifics on what the actual issues are that are preventing the bug fixes and DLC release from being feasible? I assure you that despite some of the behavior on here, a direct and open response to that question would be understood by many and would go far to heal this now damaged consumer relationship.

Thanks in advance


Drez -

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed. Based on feedback, we explored the option of adding in a playlist but ended up not being able to.

I agree that being able to give you guys these answers in a shorter time frame would have been better and that it took a long time to reach a final conclusion. I promise you, that's not lost on me, and it's something I'm working on making sure doesn't happen again.

I can't always bring good news, but I am going to try and make sure the process is better for you guys in the future.

Hope that clears things up for you.

[ohstallion]

I second this comment! More direct, straight answers please!



Elizabeth,

This was actually a somewhat straightforward and refreshing response. Thank you. I think more of these straight answers will help.

Can we get more specifics on what the actual issues are that are preventing the bug fixes and DLC release from being feasible? I assure you that despite some of the behavior on here, a direct and open response to that question would be understood by many and would go far to heal this now damaged consumer relationship.

Thanks in advance

[mwinter77]

Thank you, the issue is clearer now.

But really, at this point, it's hard to think of 2k and not feel an almost inexpressible rage. If you communicate anything back to your company, please communicate that - I know I am not the only person that feels like this. It seems counterproductive to not only alienate a core group of fans in what promises to be a budding, farmable intellectual property (i.e. BioShock), but to further spend eight full months conditioning this fanbase to think upon 2k with anger and disappointment instead of fondness.

Since this says everything I feel and believe - as I too have been here since the start - I thought I would simply re-post it - it truly says so much!

[ohstallion]

Liz, I also think it'd be good if we can at least get an inkling of what the 2K developers, corporate leadership, etc folks are thinking in terms of PC user reaction so far.

If they're indifferent because they think they haven't heard from enough people, then that means PC users need to coordinate and amp up efforts to let 2K know they can't ignore us.

If they really do think the PC gaming era is over and PC users just need to suck it up, then they should say so as well.





Since this says everything I feel and believe - as I too have been here since the start - I thought I would simply re-post it - it truly says so much!

[Sgt Scyther]

I would consider the map pack "broken" and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Yeah, sure, they WORK but the odds of actually getting to play on these maps are nearly impossible to due to the horrid match making system.

It was handled horribly. People wasted their money on maps they can't even use. It's broken and since 2K doesn't want to fix their mistakes the people that bought this faulty DLC should be given a full refund.

[2K Elizabeth]

Whoa there, 2K Liz. 2K couldn't make a playlist? That is pure laziness. Have you ever heard of Unreal Tournament (1999)? A player could take maps in one window and drag them into another. That became the playlist. Somehow, 2K Games can't do now what Epic Games did back in 1999? That is nothing but laziness (or incredibly bad programming).

Also, you are still ignoring very valid questions asked by posters. They have asked for answers other than your vague ones that don't really answer anything. Yet you claim you want to make things better? You aren't making them better so far.

I can tell you, from my talks with programmers, that making playlists for our games is nowhere near this simple. It is not UT!

As for questions, if you guys have any other specifics that I can answer, I will. I'm not ignoring anyone, and for some very individual questions (and some tech support) I've been reaching out to people personally, as that seems far more logical than having a one-on-one conversation bog down this thread.

[Relight]

I wrote a lot more, but I've pared it down in the interest of being succint.


As for questions, if you guys have any other specifics that I can answer, I will. I'm not ignoring anyone, and for some very individual questions (and some tech support) I've been reaching out to people personally, as that seems far more logical than having a one-on-one conversation bog down this thread.

For tech support, sure, PMs are obviously best. But that's not what the majority of the conversation here is about, from what I can tell. I've seen good questions here that haven't been answered, which would in no way bog down this thread to have them answered publically - in fact, I know that everyone would be interested in reading the answers. So in regard to specifics, I mean, this is just silly that someone should have to sit here and break this down, but OK:

I'm *sure* that this is what *everyone* wants to know:


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from patching the vending machines voices?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from creating a separate playlist for the Rapture Metro maps?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from releasing both the Protector Trials and Minerva's Den DLCs for PC?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?
Now you did say "specifics that I can answer." So you might not know the specifics involved in these questions off-hand. So, I would appreciate it, and I'm sure many others would as well, if you can take these questions above to the developers or management or whoever, and just have them be honest about whatever the problems were.

Let's stop beating around the bush and dealing in vague answers. Us PC gamers are a savvy bunch. We can handle a technical explanation. In fact, the more technical, the better for some of us. We would feel much better if you could just answer these questions above. Because if the answers are reasonable, then we could understand 2K's decisions.

The only reason that 2K could have for not just answering these questions for us now is if the answers would make the statement "technical and timing issues" seem misleading or not really a primary, valid reason for the decisions that have been made.

[Nitrax]

Whoa there, 2K Liz. 2K couldn't make a playlist? That is pure laziness. Have you ever heard of Unreal Tournament (1999)? A player could take maps in one window and drag them into another. That became the playlist. Somehow, 2K Games can't do now what Epic Games did back in 1999? That is nothing but laziness (or incredibly bad programming).



For added irony, Digital Extremes worked on both UT and BS2 multiplayer. 2K literally cannot do what was done 11 years ago with the very same company!

We need a WTF icon.

[Moldy Clay]

Drez -

The map pack is not broken. It does not have a separate playlist so that you can choose to play only that pack, which is how it was designed. Based on feedback, we explored the option of adding in a playlist but ended up not being able to.

I agree that being able to give you guys these answers in a shorter time frame would have been better and that it took a long time to reach a final conclusion. I promise you, that's not lost on me, and it's something I'm working on making sure doesn't happen again.

I can't always bring good news, but I am going to try and make sure the process is better for you guys in the future.

Hope that clears things up for you.

You have to understand that, to us, it's broken.

2K charges $10 for 6 maps.

We cannot play these maps unless everyone has them.

2K may have released it like this intentionally, but I don't know how they missed the fact that this is an oversight on how many people were going to buy the product. It's useless to most people.

Want to know an alternate solution to making playlists?

2K said they wanted the game to not allow you to kick people unfairly and stuff or whatever before the game was out. That's noble and all, but if you were to implement a way for, in the menu, to, oh, I DON'T KNOW, choose levels? Or make a room in random online where you get to pick the level, or look for a room
currently playing/waiting for a specific level.

This would be, potentially, the most simple thing you could do.

I don't know why 2K doesn't just do that.

Have an option added to the game to search for the stages. This way, if someone is playing on Dionysus Park, you can just join that game. Then you'd be with a group of people playing with the DLC.

I feel like it just makes too much sense, and that there's no way 2K could have missed that option.

[SpottedPattern]

Well I give up, I tried in PM's to get 2K to acknowledge that an official announcement needed to be made here and on Cult Of Rapture, but guess what, more non-answers and non-information :








Hi Liz,

Hopefully a PM will garner a more productive response than the melee in the threads.

Can you please advise the answer to the following 2 questions :

1) Why has there been no official announcement on the Cult Of Rapture website detailing the withdrawal of support for the PC version of Bioshock 2 ?

2) The same as above but for a stickied thread in both the BioShock 2 In-Game Discussion forum and the BioShock 2 Technical Support so it is as abundantly clear as possible for all PC users to see ?

I hope you can provide answers to those 2 specific questions, a response would be appreciated.

Thanks

PS

Hey,

I always put my comments in appropriate areas as the situation arises - and right now, where I've posted and how I'm messaging makes the most sense in the avenues where I'm talking. If the need arises for any other posts or a change of any sort, I'll be adding on - but for now, I think the three threads where I'm active is working out really well.

Thanks.

Hi Liz,

I'm sorry but that's not really an answer to either of the 2 questions merely a stringing together of words to look like they mean something when infact they don't.

I did think a PM would garner a more meaningful dialogue compared to the non-information in the threads, but I guess not.

I will add that your reply does not address the situation about Cult Of Rapture.

I would like to give you another opportunity to answer the 2 questions so please do.

The FACT remains 2K needs to post something official both here and on Cult Of Rapture.

If where you've posted is as official as 2K is willing to commit to I'm not surprised.

So again I ask you why have 2K not announced and detailed this in a proper official manner, as would be proper business practice.

I will add I've 10+ years of experience in this business, the same business you work in, so I'm aware when questions are avoided and answers aren't given, so please don't give me PR spin.

Now to nip it in the bud before I get accussed of it, I'm being polite, I'm not trolling, and I would like for you to take this opportunity and answer my concerns properly please.

Thank you in advance.

PS

Hey there,

The official forums are certainly an official outlet for announcements and dialogue - I've made announcements and we give updates here all the time, not only for BioShock but also for Mafia II and Civilization V (today we just posted an upcoming patch list for Civilization V, in fact.) As I said before, I always communicate and message when and where it makes sense - and in this instance, posting these follow ups in the threads where the topics originated is the best way to talk to people and make sure that I am having a conversation. From the emails and PMs that have come out of those threads, I think I'm doing an okay job, but if I see a reason to change tactics, I will.

Thanks for the feedback - and I wanted to let you know that David also sent me this feedback from you, so rest assured, you've been heard.

-Elizabeth

Hi,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and you may even think that you're answering my concerns which to be honest I'm only doing for the 'communities' benefit, but you are not.

The complete lack of any news on Cult Of Rapture regarding this issues underlines that fact.

I would like to report in the 2 threads that 2K are aware that sufficient public awareness has not been attained due to no proper publication of the necessary information in the correct way, (the correct way is not hiding the info' in two unspecific threads), but I can see that even if I spent all night conversing with you, we would not get the solution that is in fact required and necessary, something I'm not at all surprised is the case.

I've given you ample opportunity to accept you're not addressing the concerns correctly, and I'll give you this last opportunity to do so, otherwise an e-mail I've written to all the editors of different online mag's/pub's will be dispatched advising the evasiveness exhibited in one to one communication between you and me, and 2K'S continued pig headedness about making any real official announcement.

There you go, there's the ball, try to do the right thing with it.

PS

Hey there,

I'm sorry that you feel that way. As always, I'll continue to do my best and do right by the community. I am doing anything but hiding information and have spent the entire weekend (and will continue to spend the next weeks and months if necessary) answering questions and helping people with tech issues.

Feel free to include me, if you wish, on any emails to editors as I'll answer any questions they might have.

Thanks.

Elizabeth
Sorry Liz you lost your chance, I give up on getting anything resembling a straight answer out of you, all you're good for is sales speak and PR double talk, which is precisely what 2K have hired you for but does a massive disservice to the community of fans and customers whom you're suppose to represent.

PS

[B17gunner98th]

I wrote a lot more, but I've pared it down in the interest of being succint.



For tech support, sure, PMs are obviously best. But that's not what the majority of the conversation here is about, from what I can tell. I've seen good questions here that haven't been answered, which would in no way bog down this thread to have them answered publically - in fact, I know that everyone would be interested in reading the answers. So in regard to specifics, I mean, this is just silly that someone should have to sit here and break this down, but OK:

I'm *sure* that this is what *everyone* wants to know:


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from patching the vending machines voices?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from creating a separate playlist for the Rapture Metro maps?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from releasing both the Protector Trials and Minerva's Den DLCs for PC?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?
Now you did say "specifics that I can answer." So you might not know the specifics involved in these questions off-hand. So, I would appreciate it, and I'm sure many others would as well, if you can take these questions above to the developers or management or whoever, and just have them be honest about whatever the problems were.

Let's stop beating around the bush and dealing in vague answers. Us PC gamers are a savvy bunch. We can handle a technical explanation. In fact, the more technical, the better for some of us. We would feel much better if you could just answer these questions above. Because if the answers are reasonable, then we could understand 2K's decisions.

The only reason that 2K could have for not just answering these questions for us now is if the answers would make the statement "technical and timing issues" seem misleading or not really a primary, valid reason for the decisions that have been made.

+1 10 char

[Kalysm]

Elizabeth, I think that a lot of your time reading posts and doing damage control would be saved if you answered the questions outlined by Relight. Much of the anger from users is coming from the fact that we don't know what went on behind the scenes, and it seems that the real reasoning behind all of this is being concealed. There's nothing that satisfies people more than unearthing the truth. It may not be your responsibility to tell us that much. You even may have been instructed not to do so. If this is the case, then it is pretty obvious that those in charge realize we would be very bitter with the answers- more bitter, in fact than we are now, of which I can't even conceive at this point. By following that line of thought, if Relight's questions aren't answered, the worst may automatically be assumed. If you do answer the questions, it definitely won't stop the posts from the more furious members of the community, but people like me who have been patiently waiting for answers may have some amount of closure. If you do truly care about the community, rather than seeing this as just a job, I beg you to show us that you are on our side.

[Zuzax]

Here's an odd dichotomy gleaned from the above few posts: When patches were supposed to be coming out for PC we were told by 2K to check the Cult of Rapture page as the official information source. Now that patches will no longer be coming out, the Cult of Rapture page is no longer the "appropriate" page for such information. That's now best handled by buried forum postings and PMs. Confusing, isn't it?

On a semi-unrelated note, the way 2K treats their customers made me wonder how they must treat their rank-and-file employees. If management has such disregard for the customers who provide revenue, how must they treat the people who they must pay salary and (potentially) pay bonuses to? My concern is that non-management personnel are probably viewed as replaceable chattel.

That said, if any rank-and-file 2K employees see the injustice of the current BS2 situation and are reading this, perhaps an anonymous blog from inside 2K is in order. Anyone remember the EA Spouse blog? Or this one about Warhammer (https://ealouse.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/hello-world/).

As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis once said "sunlight is the best disinfectant." Lord knows this situation could use a little light shed upon it.

[FireyFate]

Here's an odd dichotomy gleaned from the above few posts: When patches were supposed to be coming out for PC we were told by 2K to check the Cult of Rapture page as the official information source. Now that patches will no longer be coming out, the Cult of Rapture page is no longer the "appropriate" page for such information. That's now best handled by buried forum postings and PMs. Confusing, isn't it?


I don't think it is confusing at all. 2k is trying to sweep this under the rug as much as possible.

If some uninformed person reads the Cult of Rapture today, they are going to be mislead into thinking Minerva's Den is still coming to GFWL. It says it right on the front page. Simply changing that August 5th post would be horrible business ethics, so the only honest solution is to put a new post at the top.

Of course it is easier to act naive. "I'm really trying to put out the best information blah blah blah." Sure you are....

[IllusionOfLife]

For added irony, Digital Extremes worked on both UT and BS2 multiplayer. 2K literally cannot do what was done 11 years ago with the very same company!

We need a WTF icon.

That's the problem, I think. From my understanding (and I may be wrong, feel free to correct me) Digital Extremes developed the Multiplayer for Bio 2, and when the game launched they moved on to a different project. 2K has been working with a game that they didn't even develop in the first place, that would explain a lot of the issues in post-release patching and the inability to add something as seemingly simple as a multiplayer playlist.

Still doesn't excuse Minerva's Den and Protector Trials not being released on PC, mind. And I would like to say that I would feel much better about things if there was a post on the Cult of Rapture homepage describing in detail the answers to Relight's questions. I've always respected you Liz, and I've been defending you here, but a lot of people are upset and a lot of people have lost a great deal of trust and respect in the company, and you by association. I think having a detailed post on the Cult Homepage about exactly why things couldn't work would help restore some of our faith, and show that our voice is being heard.

[SpottedPattern]

Further to my PM saga above, I'm still no closer to getting a straight truthful answer, not surprised ? me neither <rolls eyes and shakes head>

[dunre646]

SP is right, all Liz is doing right now is talking but not saying anything

[2K Elizabeth]

SP is right, all Liz is doing right now is talking but not saying anything

I put this in a thread in General Discussion - but in about an hour I'm having a meeting about a lot of what you guys have been talking about and I put out the call for any PM/email feedback. Everyone who has written me coherent messages will be heard directly - and as for the specifics you guys are asking for, I'm looking in to it. I'm not going to make any promises that I can give you a more detailed explanation (that will make you guys happy) but if there is something that will be valuable to you guys, I'll post it here.

In short, I'm working on it. :)

[Nitrax]

Well best of luck in the meeting. Maybe we will get a miracle and they will actually listen to us.

[dunre646]

I put this in a thread in General Discussion - but in about an hour I'm having a meeting about a lot of what you guys have been talking about and I put out the call for any PM/email feedback. Everyone who has written me coherent messages will be heard directly - and as for the specifics you guys are asking for, I'm looking in to it. I'm not going to make any promises that I can give you a more detailed explanation (that will make you guys happy) but if there is something that will be valuable to you guys, I'll post it here.

In short, I'm working on it. :)

i look forward to reading it

[Zuzax]

I put this in a thread in General Discussion - but in about an hour I'm having a meeting about a lot of what you guys have been talking about and I put out the call for any PM/email feedback. Everyone who has written me coherent messages will be heard directly - and as for the specifics you guys are asking for, I'm looking in to it. I'm not going to make any promises that I can give you a more detailed explanation (that will make you guys happy) but if there is something that will be valuable to you guys, I'll post it here.

In short, I'm working on it. :)You should already have everything you need to present since it has been posted ad nauseum in this thread and all the other closed ones over the last eight months.

As our "voice to the company" can you enlighten us as to the position you will be advocating on our behalf?

[fashric]

How many meetings have you had in the last eight months where you have had the chance to voice concerns and problems that have been known for a long time? I'm guessing a few. I'm sorry but your credibility in this community right now is probably hovering just above zero, would love to see what you could do to show that you actually do a job "for the community".

[radios]

I put this in a thread in General Discussion - but in about an hour I'm having a meeting about a lot of what you guys have been talking about and I put out the call for any PM/email feedback. Everyone who has written me coherent messages will be heard directly - and as for the specifics you guys are asking for, I'm looking in to it. I'm not going to make any promises that I can give you a more detailed explanation (that will make you guys happy) but if there is something that will be valuable to you guys, I'll post it here.

In short, I'm working on it. :) if you can get them to hire a good coder to get the patches finished to get the known bugs out of the game, that would be good too. 8 MONTHS is too long, BTW.

[cardboardvalise]

guys i really doubt that after announcing that they're not giving us the DLCs and not making a multiplayer playlist and patching the 360 and ps3 but not the PC that they're gonna change their minds...

i gotta say i dont know whats going to come out of this meeting but i got a feeling it isn't going to be a miracle for us...

[Kleetus]

making playlists for our games is nowhere near this simple. It is not UT!

Other companies can do it.

If your programmers have told you it's that difficult, 2K needs new employees.

And what happened to the PC patch?

It's pretty obvious, everything was ditched for only one reason, to save money.

It has nothing to do with "timing" or technical reasons, that's just a cop-out.

[2K Elizabeth]

You should already have everything you need to present since it has been posted ad nauseum in this thread and all the other closed ones over the last eight months.

As our "voice to the company" can you enlighten us as to the position you will be advocating on our behalf?

Sorry - I didn't see this till now. In a very small and quick nutshell, I reiterated what you guys have said - your anger and disappointment, your qualms with not having a more detailed explanation and how long it took to reach a decision, and I conveyed some specific quotes from the better letters I received.

[cardboardvalise]

soooo what was their response?

[zealous010]

Sorry - I didn't see this till now. In a very small and quick nutshell, I reiterated what you guys have said - your anger and disappointment, your qualms with not having a more detailed explanation and how long it took to reach a decision, and I conveyed some specific quotes from the better letters I received.


soooo what was their response?

Give her time lol :)

I'm very interested and cannot wait to see what she gives us, should be enlightening.

[johnjohn]

Sorry - I didn't see this till now. In a very small and quick nutshell, I reiterated what you guys have said - your anger and disappointment, your qualms with not having a more detailed explanation and how long it took to reach a decision, and I conveyed some specific quotes from the better letters I received.


soooo what was their response?

It's like playing twenty questions with a group of people inside sensory deprivation tanks on the moon. How funny is this gonna go, here?

[2K Elizabeth]

soooo what was their response?

There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up. A lot of you were asking about what I was doing to make sure you were heard, which is why I talked about the meeting.

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(

[dunre646]

There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up. A lot of you were asking about what I was doing to make sure you were heard, which is why I talked about the meeting.

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(

i understand you not wanting to get our hopes up, but it the same time i believe we are entitled to be told truth about what is going on at your end

[Zuzax]

Sorry - I didn't see this till now. In a very small and quick nutshell, I reiterated what you guys have said - your anger and disappointment, your qualms with not having a more detailed explanation and how long it took to reach a decision, and I conveyed some specific quotes from the better letters I received.
There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up. A lot of you were asking about what I was doing to make sure you were heard, which is why I talked about the meeting.

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(So what was their response? If you are still compelled to not give us a straight answer, can you pick the closest thing to their actual response from the list below? Was it more like:

A) We need to do the right thing by our customers and assign resources to address these issues. Ha! Psych! You should see your face!

B) Meh. People in Hell want icewater, but they're not getting it either.

C) Why are you bringing this up again? Didn't we fire all the PC developers months ago?

D) What's a Bioshock 2?

E) Fetch me a daiquiri.

[2K Elizabeth]

So what was their response? If you are still compelled to not give us a straight answer, can you pick the closest thing to their actual response from the list below? Was it more like:

A) We need to do the right thing by our customers and assign resources to address these issues. Ha! Psych! You should see your face!

B) Meh. People in Hell want icewater, but they're not getting it either.

C) Why are you bringing this up again? Didn't we fire all the PC developers months ago?

D) What's a Bioshock 2?

E) Fetch me a daiquiri.

This is a PSA to everyone posting here: This kind of post isn't needed whatsoever. It's disrespectful, it doesn't add to conversation, and it hurts this overall thread.

Please don't do this. I don't like giving infractions and bans and I do like you guys talking and voicing your opinions. So try and maintain a certain level of maturity and don't post stuff like this.

[dunre646]

This is a PSA to everyone posting here: This kind of post isn't needed whatsoever. It's disrespectful, it doesn't add to conversation, and it hurts this overall thread.

Please don't do this. I don't like giving infractions and bans and I do like you guys talking and voicing your opinions. So try and maintain a certain level of maturity and don't post stuff like this.

most of us are keeping a certain level of maturity, it's just people want real answers not PR answers

[Electro-Bolt]

There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up.

This is our answer guys. Who cares what the specifics of it are? All the truth I need to know is that the developers really screwed us over on this one.

[cardboardvalise]

There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up. A lot of you were asking about what I was doing to make sure you were heard, which is why I talked about the meeting.

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(

so the details are still "**** those customers we already got their money" it sounds like? and here i hoped the suits at 2K would listen to customer anger!

[cardboardvalise]

This is a PSA to everyone posting here: This kind of post isn't needed whatsoever. It's disrespectful, it doesn't add to conversation, and it hurts this overall thread.

Please don't do this. I don't like giving infractions and bans and I do like you guys talking and voicing your opinions. So try and maintain a certain level of maturity and don't post stuff like this.

it was totally funny though *and* a good stress release valve. think of it that way. Try to have a sense of humour. customeers have been waiting months and feel jerked around. be accepting of customer anger, he didn't swear.

[SpottedPattern]

There aren't any updates for you guys - and I'm not going to be posting something epic and amazing so please don't get your hopes up. A lot of you were asking about what I was doing to make sure you were heard, which is why I talked about the meeting.

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(

Liz,

2K need to draw a line in the sand, story, end of.

The situation still reeks of speculation and I for one wouldn't be surprised if the 'announcement' gets changed either partially or wholely, on the otherhand I wouldn't be surprised if this is a botched cost saving exercise either that just has not been thought through properly, (maybe because I pushed you).

It still stinks that the chances of getting a straight forward concise and clear answer to anything from 2K is in the category of 'ice cube's chance in haedes'

So either 2K admit they've made an absolute pig's ear of it and try to turn that into a silk lined purse and patch everything and release the DLC's.

Or you go the whole hog, draw the line in the sand that the issue is over, done and dusted, Bioshock 2 will not be patched or supported in anyway whatsoever on the PC, FULL STOP. and proper official announcements can finallly be made after nearly a week here and on the Cult Of Rapture so no more PC gamers get stung by a flawed product and a faulty DLC, and the theft stops.

Presently as I said it reeks of neither of those black or white situations, and the community is still being kept in that grey dark area, which is bad business practice especially for a large public facing company.

2k needs to decide, give a concrete answer, and we can all move on one way or the other, which will still no doubt result in name calling, swearing, illustrative pictures, litigation, laws suits and class actions, but you can't please everyone even if the patches and DLC's come out.

PS

p.s.: Liz to have no communcaition come out of that meeting for the community would be the equivalent of pouring petrol on a fire.

p.p.s : to add something, as some of you may know I work in the games industry in the UK, consulting, and I've spoken to and had conferences calls/meetings, etc. and talking to dev's, publishers, people working on games at all levels from Europe and the US, the general consensus about this decision is not the best, the most succinct phrase was "cutting your nose off to spite your face" being the most apt description of the announcement, I'm still increduluous about it and I've not even bought or played the game due to the DRM issue.

[cardboardvalise]

Liz,

2K need to draw a line in the sand, story, end of.

The situation still reeks of speculation and I for one wouldn't be surprised if the 'announcement' gets changed either partially or wholely, on the otherhand I wouldn't be surprised if this is a botched cost saving exercise either that just has not been thought through properly, (maybe because I pushed you).

It still stinks that the chances of getting a straight forward concise and clear answer to anything from 2K is in the category of 'ice cube's chance in haedes'

So either 2K admit they've made an absolute pig's ear of it and try to turn that into a silk lined purse and patch everything and release the DLC's.

Or you go the whole hog, draw the line in the sand that the issue is over, done and dusted, Bioshock 2 will not be patched or supported in anyway whatsoever on the PC, FULL STOP. and proper official announcements can finallly be made after nearly a week here and on the Cult Of Rapture so no more PC gamers get stung by a flawed product and a faulty DLC, and the theft stops.

Presently as I said it reeks of neither of those black or white situations, and the community is still being kept in that grey dark area, which is bad business practice especially for a large public facing company.

2k needs to decide, give a concrete answer, and we can all move on one way or the other, which will still no doubt result in name calling, swearing, illustrative pictures, litigation, laws suits and class actions, but you can't please everyone even if the patches and DLC's come out.

PS

p.s.: Liz to have no communcaition come out of that meeting for the community would be the equivalent of pouring petrol on a fire.

p.p.s : to add something, as some of you may know I work in the games industry in the UK, consulting, and I've spoken to and had conferences calls/meetings, etc. and talking to dev's, publishers, people working on games at all levels from Europe and the US, the general consensus about this decision is not the best, the most succinct phrase was "cutting your nose off to spite your face" being the most apt description of the announcement, I'm still increduluous about it and I've not even bought or played the game due to the DRM issue.

i used to be a QA tester for Monolith, if that means sh*t.

[SpottedPattern]

i used to be a QA tester for Monolith, if that means sh*t.

Mean's your opinion's as valid as the next person, and if you're a paying customer your wishes and requirements should be met, hth.

[cardboardvalise]

Mean's your opinion's as valid as the next person, and if you're a paying customer your wishes and requirements should be met, hth.

means i know something about catching bugs too. i just type without caps cause my left thumb's broken! also, i have lots of scotch nearby. also, as a child born in the US of UK immigrant parents, I salute you. If i could move back to my family's old home in Hull, well... can't be as bad as the states!

[akskiller]

So our concerns were ignored in the meeting? Superb!:rolleyes:

[63jax]

so i guess we got our answers, that was all we needed, an answer. at least we know a sure thing now and we can get moving along. thank you 2k you are an amazing company, an example for every other company in the business. you have all my support in your future projects...;)

[JLBiggs]

I wrote a lot more, but I've pared it down in the interest of being succint.



For tech support, sure, PMs are obviously best. But that's not what the majority of the conversation here is about, from what I can tell. I've seen good questions here that haven't been answered, which would in no way bog down this thread to have them answered publically - in fact, I know that everyone would be interested in reading the answers. So in regard to specifics, I mean, this is just silly that someone should have to sit here and break this down, but OK:

I'm *sure* that this is what *everyone* wants to know:


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from patching the vending machines voices?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from creating a separate playlist for the Rapture Metro maps?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?


What were the specific technical issues that prevented 2K from releasing both the Protector Trials and Minerva's Den DLCs for PC?

What were the specific timing issues that prevented the same?
Now you did say "specifics that I can answer." So you might not know the specifics involved in these questions off-hand. So, I would appreciate it, and I'm sure many others would as well, if you can take these questions above to the developers or management or whoever, and just have them be honest about whatever the problems were.

Let's stop beating around the bush and dealing in vague answers. Us PC gamers are a savvy bunch. We can handle a technical explanation. In fact, the more technical, the better for some of us. We would feel much better if you could just answer these questions above. Because if the answers are reasonable, then we could understand 2K's decisions.

The only reason that 2K could have for not just answering these questions for us now is if the answers would make the statement "technical and timing issues" seem misleading or not really a primary, valid reason for the decisions that have been made.



there are actual answers out there. much better than the technical and timing issues "answer" given to us. answers that took a long time to make apparently.

if nothing else, we at least deserve exactly what those were. otherwise just like relight says, it seems we were misled on the real reasons.

[Relight]

And without these DLC on PC, we have no amazing screenshots from JLBiggs! :(

[JLBiggs]

lol :) or you or cherry or anyone! what waste.

[SpottedPattern]

.... also, as a child born in the US of UK immigrant parents, I salute you. If i could move back to my family's old home in Hull, well... can't be as bad as the states!

It's not that bad, but it's getting there, if I had my way I'd be living on Vanuatu learning to like sea food :eek:

Anyways back on topic, they say no news is good news, except where this company is involved I guess.

I wonder how long before any news is forthcoming, or else it was merely a theoretical exercise ?

Well Liz .... speak to your community ?

[Kalysm]

This is why sometimes more details are not better, I think. :(

I don't believe that is the appropriate way to respond when all we are hoping for is verification on their part that our voices were heard and being taken into consideration. For all we know, these letters could have been left on the conference table. At the very least, it would be nice to know how seriously our complaints were taken, or whether or not this was just a rouse to give the impression that the community hasn't been abandoned utterly. Specifics aren't required, but rather the general tone and attitude in which our complaints were received.

[2K Elizabeth]

I don't believe that is the appropriate way to respond when all we are hoping for is verification on their part that our voices were heard and being taken into consideration. For all we know, these letters could have been left on the conference table. At the very least, it would be nice to know how seriously our complaints were taken, or whether or not this was just a rouse to give the impression that the community hasn't been abandoned utterly. Specifics aren't required, but rather the general tone and attitude in which our complaints were received.

Your complaints were taken very seriously - I had a meeting specifically to talk about them. You guys haven't been abandoned - I'm here, as well as two full time 2K Community Managers. The tone was serious.

[Dragonknight]

I'm not expecting any real useful answers since your "answers" to customers' questions have been vague, with no details, just "timing" and "technical" reasons which have never been explained. That is not being honest, yet you claimed you are honest. (Riiiiight.)

What the hell. I'll ask the questions. What happened at the meeting? What was discussed? What are the useful and detailed answers to the questions SpottedPatter, Relight, and others asked?

[Relight]

I've been trying to figure out the best way to post this information, and I've re-written this post 3 times in 3 different ways.

It's the ambiguity of "technical and timing issues" that has been bothering me. Which is why many of us have been asking for more details, and I posted those specific questions. But some further discussion:

First of all, what does "timing issues" even mean?

That's a huge conversation and I'm not even going to get into that half of the discussion, simply because it's so ambiguous and I'm not going to post unfounded speculation.

Secondly, I wanted to speak to the "technical" side of things.

There's no way that 2K is not capable of quickly solving anything technical related. There's just no excuse for the abysmal (lack of) support that 2K has given BioShock 2.

First let's look at the overall approach of 2K getting things done and issuing patches, and any potential objections.

2K has already issued patches of significant size, so 2K is fully capable of issuing patches that finally fix the things we've been asking them to fix.

As other fans have posted specific examples of before, other companies issue patches quickly. You can't say "don't compare us to other companies" because 2K is a major game company. You can't blame GFWL on the PC side in terms of patch delivery, because all that GFWL does is deliver the patch. Users have downloaded the patches from third party sites hosting the patches and have had no problem. If it's a certification issue, then obviously I can't speak to that, but if that's the case, then you should tell us exactly what's up.

And you can't blame it on the engine, because other games use Unreal engine as well.

These excuses that we've heard before - "we're different than other companies" and "our game is different from other games" and "don't compare" - are not valid excuses in any way.

You're in the games industry. You're basically a major publisher. In *everything* that you do, you should expect to be compared to other publishers and held to similar standards by fans, media, your shareholders, etc.

So with all of that preamble out of the way - yes, we're only now getting to the good stuff! - we go on to the actual technical aspects of the game itself.

Let's take one particular issue of contention - the way that the Rapture Metro maps were handled.

Now granted, I'm not aware of everything that's happening technically, but for my own curiosity and satisfaction, I spent over an hour last night looking at BioShock 2 Multiplayer's actual code, in order to familiarize myself with a *significant* amount of the *relevant* technical material.

I can tell you that it would obviously take a bit of work to implement some kind of option to only play on Rapture Metro maps - it would likely have to be done by creating new game modes, as I'm pretty sure 2K Elizabeth herself informed us IIRC - but I can also tell you that it wouldn't be hard.

As someone else pointed out, the Multiplayer was developed by DE. Now if 2K was looking at this themselves, and they couldn't figure it out (which I honestly can't imagine) and they didn't want to pay DE, so they decided they wouldn't be able to do this for technical reasons... well then, that's just silly.

If I can look at the code and understand it, then... I'm just scratching my head why, when immediately faced with player complaints on this and many other aspects of BioShock 2, 2K has seemed consistently *unwilling* to properly fix the issues that fans are most concerned with.

Don't make me spend the time to write out exactly, with excerpts of BioShock 2 game code, how to fix the vending machine voices, add Rapture Metro map game modes, etc.

[tleloc]

I've been trying to figure out the best way to post this information, and I've re-written this post 3 times in 3 different ways.

It's the ambiguity of "technical and timing issues" that has been bothering me. Which is why many of us have been asking for more details, and I posted those specific questions. But some further discussion:

First of all, what does "timing issues" even mean?

That's a huge conversation and I'm not even going to get into that half of the discussion, simply because it's so ambiguous and I'm not going to post unfounded speculation.

Secondly, I wanted to speak to the "technical" side of things.

There's no way that 2K is not capable of quickly solving anything technical related. There's just no excuse for the abysmal (lack of) support that 2K has given BioShock 2.

First let's look at the overall approach of 2K getting things done and issuing patches, and any potential objections.

2K has already issued patches of significant size, so 2K is fully capable of issuing patches that finally fix the things we've been asking them to fix.

As other fans have posted specific examples of before, other companies issue patches quickly. You can't say "don't compare us to other companies" because 2K is a major game company. You can't blame GFWL on the PC side in terms of patch delivery, because all that GFWL does is deliver the patch. Users have downloaded the patches from third party sites hosting the patches and have had no problem. If it's a certification issue, then obviously I can't speak to that, but if that's the case, then you should tell us exactly what's up.

And you can't blame it on the engine, because other games use Unreal engine as well.

These excuses that we've heard before - "we're different than other companies" and "our game is different from other games" and "don't compare" - are not valid excuses in any way.

You're in the games industry. You're basically a major publisher. In *everything* that you do, you should expect to be compared to other publishers and held to similar standards by fans, media, your shareholders, etc.

So with all of that preamble out of the way - yes, we're only now getting to the good stuff! - we go on to the actual technical aspects of the game itself.

Let's take one particular issue of contention - the way that the Rapture Metro maps were handled.

Now granted, I'm not aware of everything that's happening technically, but for my own curiosity and satisfaction, I spent over an hour last night looking at BioShock 2 Multiplayer's actual code, in order to familiarize myself with a *significant* amount of the *relevant* technical material.

I can tell you that it would obviously take a bit of work to implement some kind of option to only play on Rapture Metro maps - it would likely have to be done by creating new game modes, as I'm pretty sure 2K Elizabeth herself informed us IIRC - but I can also tell you that it wouldn't be hard.

As someone else pointed out, the Multiplayer was developed by DE. Now if 2K was looking at this themselves, and they couldn't figure it out (which I honestly can't imagine) and they didn't want to pay DE, so they decided they wouldn't be able to do this for technical reasons... well then, that's just silly.

If I can look at the code and understand it, then... I'm just scratching my head why, when immediately faced with player complaints on this and many other aspects of BioShock 2, 2K has seemed consistently *unwilling* to properly fix the issues that fans are most concerned with.

Don't make me spend the time to write out exactly, with excerpts of BioShock 2 game code, how to fix the vending machine voices, add Rapture Metro map game modes, etc.

Man, if Liz does not answer you clearly then it shows who she really is.
By the way liz you seem to not want to answer my questions when ever you decide to look at this thread so im going to ask again

Can we get our 10 dollras back that we spent on the maps that we cant use online? I want to buy Limbo I'm sure i'll play that game more than the "new" maps

I cant imagine buying a car and not being able to drive it outside of your parking lot. This is what 2k did to us, please give us our money back

[Drez]

This whole thing is getting ridiculous.

Liz, when people spend money on a product, they want the product to work. That's it.

Unlike apparently everyone else here, I don't personally care to read the minutes of any meetings you may have had with anyone at 2k. I am completely uninterested in the intricacies of what factored into any of 2k's decisions in this whole fix/don't fix process. I resent the fact that I have nearly 200 posts on this forum.

All I ever cared about was getting the product I paid money for fixed. I shouldn't have to be involved in any community to get a working product.

The bottom line, insofar as any consumer is or should be concerned, is this: some buggy/broken aspects of the game were falsely advertised before the game evn came out, 2k Marin has acknowledged these and various other issues, 2k Marin has explicitly stated their intent to fix a number of these issues, and finally 2k Marin has failed to fix them.

That is completely unacceptable to me. There is absolutely no answer that would satisfy me as to why I paid $50 for a product that fails to work as advertised. Any and all explanations at this point just perpetuate the run-around we've been given for the last eight months.

And really when it comes down to it, it is only that last issue that matters. I don't want analyses. I want a working product. A fix or a refund, nothing else is acceptable. No answers and no explanations will change the reality of me spending $50 on a game that does not do what it was advertised to do.

I don't even want a response to this. I'm tired of being placated. The present situation is unacceptable and no amount of communication will amend that.

Also, the reason people are suggesting that this announcement be posted on the Cult of Rapture site is, as you know, because not every BioShock 2 owner or potential owner reads these forums. Probably a small percentage do. No doubt that is what 2k is banking on. But the ethical thing to do would be to advertise actual correct information to potential consumers. I don't go visiting the tech support forums of games I'm thinking of purchasing and I don't think many other people do either. Most likely, someone googling BioShock 2 is going to come across the Cult of Rapture site before anything else. And right now that site suggests that widescreen aspect ratios have HUDs and menus that look correct and that patches are coming. These pieces of information are false. The right thing to do would be to, at the very least, copy and paste your forum post and publish it on the site.

[dunre646]

Your complaints were taken very seriously - I had a meeting specifically to talk about them. You guys haven't been abandoned - I'm here, as well as two full time 2K Community Managers. The tone was serious.

so what came of this meeting? are you allowed to give us the technical details we have asked for? is anything going to be done to address those that feel they have be lied to and cheated? how do we know the same think wouldn't happen again to the pc versions of duke nukem forever and x-com?

[2K Elizabeth]

Man, if Liz does not answer you clearly then it shows who she really is.
By the way liz you seem to not want to answer my questions when ever you decide to look at this thread so im going to ask again

Can we get our 10 dollras back that we spent on the maps that we cant use online? I want to buy Limbo I'm sure i'll play that game more than the "new" maps

I cant imagine buying a car and not being able to drive it outside of your parking lot. This is what 2k did to us, please give us our money back

Not being able to answer these questions now as clearly as you like I hope doesn't reflect anything about me - it reflects that I don't have the answers. That's what's going on. You guys asked these questions over the weekend - you don't have to repeat them - I'm already working on getting you more details (and I don't have any timeline and I'm not going to make any promises, but I'm working on it.)

Refunds fall under the same policy as with all our games and content - if you want to talk me about that, feel free to email or PM me so I can talk about your specific case.

[FireyFate]

Your PC customers have literally been hearing "I'm working on it" and "we're working on it" for 8 months, only to be let down time and time again. You know it to be true.

[SpottedPattern]

Not being able to answer these questions now as clearly as you like I hope doesn't reflect anything about me - it reflects that I don't have the answers. That's what's going on. You guys asked these questions over the weekend - you don't have to repeat them - I'm already working on getting you more details (and I don't have any timeline and I'm not going to make any promises, but I'm working on it.)

Refunds fall under the same policy as with all our games and content - if you want to talk me about that, feel free to email or PM me so I can talk about your specific case.

Liz - concrete answers are required as soon as is humanly possible and then an official update here and on CoR - please do not dissappoint us further, thank you.

(No more repeating the past 8 months)

[2K Elizabeth]

Liz - concrete answers are required as soon as is humanly possible and then an official update here and on CoR - please do not dissappoint us further, thank you.

(No more repeating the past 8 months)

I'm not promising any more concrete answers of any sort - the update I made on Friday should be deemed final, so please don't expect something definite.

I just want to make sure no one is misinterpreting anything - that can happen with a busy thread.

[dunre646]

I'm not promising any more concrete answers of any sort - the update I made on Friday should be deemed final, so please don't expect something definite.

I just want to make sure no one is misinterpreting anything - that can happen with a busy thread.

so i the customer who paid full price when bs2 was released, who trusted 2k then they said that the problems will be fixed and the dlc is on it's way, is not worth being given any concrete answers.

would you please stop the PR talk and give as the details we are entitled to

[Dragonknight]

My guess: fans are screwed. No refunds; no big patch with fixes; no dlc; more "working on it" public-relations-blah-blah. 2K has had plenty of time to decide what to do about the situation and have a plan on how to make it up to the fans. Instead it's been vague answers from 2K and no actual detailed info.

Fine. There are people I know, who have people they know, etc., who are telling people not to buy any more games published by 2K Games. Sure, they might not stop all that many, but each sale they stop is one less person getting ripped off by 2K. Also, 2KElizabeth, you should check out the newssites for gaming where this story has been posted. The replies by people have been overwhelmingly negative about 2K Games and their handling of this situation. Too bad that it's very unlikely that anything will change around here.

[cardboardvalise]

Not being able to answer these questions now as clearly as you like I hope doesn't reflect anything about me - it reflects that I don't have the answers. That's what's going on. You guys asked these questions over the weekend - you don't have to repeat them - I'm already working on getting you more details (and I don't have any timeline and I'm not going to make any promises, but I'm working on it.)

Refunds fall under the same policy as with all our games and content - if you want to talk me about that, feel free to email or PM me so I can talk about your specific case.

making it harder for customers who feel rejected and scorned to get any sort of refund or trade-in just makes 2k look like bigger and bigger jackasses caring less and less about the customers, throwing up more and more stumbling blocks in our way.

How about telling us this, can we trade in bioshock 2 for a voucher for Bioshock infinite pre=order?


I'm not promising any more concrete answers of any sort - the update I made on Friday should be deemed final, so please don't expect something definite.

I just want to make sure no one is misinterpreting anything - that can happen with a busy thread.

what was the point of the big meeting where you met with the suits and told em all that we're so angry we're wouldn't cross the street to buy a 2K game if it came with a free bar of gold, if nothing changes?

man, talk about leading us on and getting our hopes up. if nothing was gonna change then telling us about the meeting at all was just getting our hopes up for nothing. thanks for nothing.


Not being able to answer these questions now as clearly as you like I hope doesn't reflect anything about me -

well, sadly, it does.

[Dragonknight]

The following is not meant as humor.

http://s748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Donnikun/Facepalms/?action=view&current=godzilla-facepalm-godzilla-facepalm.jpg&newest=1

That describes my feelings toward 2K Games.

[nbajammer]

The following is not meant as humor.

http://s748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Donnikun/Facepalms/?action=view&current=godzilla-facepalm-godzilla-facepalm.jpg&newest=1

That describes my feelings toward 2K Games.

I was thinking something more like this:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o16/nbajammer/DoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

[zealous010]

I'd love to see the minutes for that meeting, bullet points are cool.

[MDA400]

Ah... i love it how its "so hard" to code for a pc game when in the first place, THE GAME IS DEVELOPED ON THE PC! every console game has to come from some more sophisticated piece of hardware and thats the PC. Saying "its too hard to implement this feature" or "its too hard to repair this exploit" is really unfeasible in itself because if the game is built around a PC platform then made for 1 type of each component in the console, then it should be fairly easy to go back and at least fix what was originally created.

That being said, im not ruling out customer feedback for fixing unknown issues with future patches, but that what is being ignored here. not the DLC that wont come out, but for the people who have the random crashes with other kinds of hardware should be heard and fixed. The DLC is outrageous too and frankly that should also be somewhat free if we are spending the costly amounts towards hardware to decently run these games that are created. But to not put quality and hard work (which this is about the 2,000,000,000th time this is being said) into a sequal that relates to a game where the issues in the first were fixed, but re-occur in the sequal? thats just ignorance.

No hate, just stating facts. Please do not take this as an insulting post 2K. I am talking to the gaming industry in general.

Something to "tie over" the people who are anxiously waiting for the "not to be a major outcome" (as stated by Liz) response from Liz.

[Mearl]

Ah... i love it how its "so hard" to code for a pc game when in the first place, THE GAME IS DEVELOPED ON THE PC! every console game has to come from some more sophisticated piece of hardware and thats the PC. Saying "its too hard to implement this feature" or "its too hard to repair this exploit" is really unfeasible in itself because if the game is built around a PC platform then made for 1 type of each component in the console, then it should be fairly easy to go back and at least fix what was originally created.

That being said, im not ruling out customer feedback for fixing unknown issues with future patches, but that what is being ignored here. not the DLC that wont come out, but for the people who have the random crashes with other kinds of hardware should be heard and fixed. The DLC is outrageous too and frankly that should also be somewhat free if we are spending the costly amounts towards hardware to decently run these games that are created. But to not put quality and hard work (which this is about the 2,000,000,000th time this is being said) into a sequal that relates to a game where the issues in the first were fixed, but re-occur in the sequal? thats just ignorance.

No hate, just stating facts. Please do not take this as an insulting post 2K. I am talking to the gaming industry in general.

Something to "tie over" the people who are anxiously waiting for the "not to be a major outcome" (as stated by Liz) response from Liz.

True, at least in parts. I don't care about the DLC either, I wouldn't have bought it anyway after all these months of ridiculous treatment. Bigger problem: No patch to get this game going, no way to play this game that I purchased (no, even pre-ordered!) for 50 Euros.

In contrast to MDA400, I'm not talking to the gaming industry in general, I'm talking to 2k: You won't get another cent from my wallet, and I will try to convince everyone around me not to waste their money on a useless and ignorant publisher. I would not even accept a refund anymore after this incredible diappointment - or, even worse, a trade-in for the next crappy installment named Bioshock Infinite . 2k, you have no clue of what customer service means - and you will see what this lack of respect you've shown to us will cost you. You abandoned us, 2k, but you will learn: Without us gamers, you're nothing, 2k, nothing at all.