Mod idea: Scouts

[MadDjinn]

So I was looking at the manual, and for all intents and purposes, there is only one scout unit. The original one.

No upgraded scouts, no better tech used, not even aerial recon.

Scouting on the battlefield is very important (real world) so how about an upgrade path for the recon units?

Scout
Outriders (require horses and Military Science. 8 strength, 3 move)
Armoured Recon (requires Replaceable Parts and Oil - 12 strength, 3 move +1 sight range, no ZOC effect)
Spy plane (requires Stealth and Aluminum - +200% Evasion, Strength 40 (defense only), Range 20, performs the 'recon ability' at specified location - can only be upgraded to within a city)

Thoughts?

[templar_fan]

Not necessary.

[wurrble182]

all fighter planes can do aerial recon missions

after a certain point you've explored everything you need to

the starting scout unit is sufficient for this

[Easy Money]

Plus fighters and bombers give you a six hex vision that is always active.

[ButterBean]

So I was looking at the manual, and for all intents and purposes, there is only one scout unit. The original one.

No upgraded scouts, no better tech used, not even aerial recon.

Scouting on the battlefield is very important (real world) so how about an upgrade path for the recon units?

Scout
Outriders (require horses and Military Science. 8 strength, 3 move)
Armoured Recon (requires Replaceable Parts and Oil - 12 strength, 3 move +1 sight range, no ZOC effect)
Spy plane (requires Stealth and Aluminum - +200% Evasion, Strength 40 (defense only), Range 20, performs the 'recon ability' at specified location - can only be upgraded to within a city)

Thoughts?
For what it is worth I thought it was a really good idea, and I would love to have it as a mod.

[Procylon]

Well, one problem is that aircraft don't get to move around the map. They only have missions.

Of course, such missions are fine for striking a target 4 hexes away, but they don't work for recon. You can't tip toe around enemy air defenses and cities with 1 shot missions like you could if you were moving the spy plane around hex by hex.

I liked CtP's spy plane with the 10 tile sight range. It was pretty much what a spy plane is supposed to be.


In many ways though, to make a scout, all you have to do is upgrade it with the +sight and +move promotions. Though, you do need barracks to start with them.

[SlickSlicer]

I suppose it depends on how much fog of war there is in the game. If things continue to be unrevealed later on, I think it'd be cool to see better scouting units. I'd like seeing jeeps and copters and stuff.

[Procylon]

all fighter planes can do aerial recon missions

after a certain point you've explored everything you need to

the starting scout unit is sufficient for this

Scouting isn't about clearing the fog of war, it is about finding where the enemy is hiding.

[MadDjinn]

all fighter planes can do aerial recon missions

after a certain point you've explored everything you need to

the starting scout unit is sufficient for this

The recon mission for airplanes is only at the start of the turn around their base. so if you're based more than that from the battle lines, you get a nice picture of your farmland or water (if on a carrier)... not so useful.


thanks Butterbean. :)


for the spy plane, I was thinking the least painful implementation method. The 6 tile 'recon' is already coded, so all a modder would have to do is add a target tile for it and have it occur there instead.

and yeah, the 'light' fog will exist all game long as far as I've seen, so it's less about uncovering terrain than it is to find out if there's a massive army on the other side of those infantry units.

@Procylon: Would you really use the +XP on sight and movement for normal units rather than on other promotions? (like shock/etc to get to multiple attacks)

Knowledge = power, so being able to know what your opponents unit composition and layout is before you get there is quite important, so that's why I'm thinking about some upgraded scout units.

I'm also ensuring that the scouting units aren't strong enough to get in a real fight, since as time progressed, scouting was taken on by lighter and lighter units, but with better technology/firepower. Ie, an armoured recon unit shouldn't have an issue with ancient units, but a cavalry charge should likely do major damage.

[Procylon]

No, but I also wouldn't waste an oil or aluminum on a scout either.

A modded scout would have to be so low on resource cost as to not register or you would never build them.


Well, if you just built a cheap no strat resource unit, I can see using it's build promotions to give it +sight and then run it over to the enemy borders.


But yeah, we really need a cheap unit that comes with these promotions automatically to supply our scouting needs.

[Mew]

So I was looking at the manual, and for all intents and purposes, there is only one scout unit. The original one.

No upgraded scouts, no better tech used, not even aerial recon.

Scouting on the battlefield is very important (real world) so how about an upgrade path for the recon units?

Scout
Outriders (require horses and Military Science. 8 strength, 3 move)
Armoured Recon (requires Replaceable Parts and Oil - 12 strength, 3 move +1 sight range, no ZOC effect)
Spy plane (requires Stealth and Aluminum - +200% Evasion, Strength 40 (defense only), Range 20, performs the 'recon ability' at specified location - can only be upgraded to within a city)

Thoughts?

Actually all air untis stationed in a city give like 6 hex circle of vision, every unit has this recon ability.

[MadDjinn]

No, but I also wouldn't waste an oil or aluminum on a scout either.

A modded scout would have to be so low on resource cost as to not register or you would never build them.


Well, if you just built a cheap no strat resource unit, I can see using it's build promotions to give it +sight and then run it over to the enemy borders.


But yeah, we really need a cheap unit that comes with these promotions automatically to supply our scouting needs.

yeah, it's debatable to have the armour recon or the spy plane use a full resource. I just threw that in since their comparable 'full sized' units are using them. Likely, since they are meant to be small we can dump that resource requirement.

[MadDjinn]

Actually all air untis stationed in a city give like 6 hex circle of vision, every unit has this recon ability.

yes, but that's just at the city/carrier as stated in a prior post of mine. Not at space far into an enemies territory.

Historically, the major powers (mostly NATO/Warsaw Pact era) ussed spy planes far far away from their territory to keep an eye on things.

[Procylon]

yeah, it's debatable to have the armour recon or the spy plane use a full resource. I just threw that in since their comparable 'full sized' units are using them. Likely, since they are meant to be small we can dump that resource requirement.

There are so many units that use aluminum and oil late game, I am really wondering how it is going to work. I am thinking each oil and aluminum has to allow like 3-5 units each.

You shouldn't have to scratch your head and wonder "Aircraft for my carrier or tank?"

It should be more like "4 full carriers or 3?"

[MadDjinn]

There are so many units that use aluminum and oil late game, I am really wondering how it is going to work. I am thinking each oil and aluminum has to allow like 3-5 units each.

You shouldn't have to scratch your head and wonder "Aircraft for my carrier or tank?"

It should be more like "4 full carriers or 3?"

Fascism Autocracy Industrial Era
Quantity of Strategic Resources produced increases by 100%

So if you're really needing that extra carrier, then Autocracy is great ;)

[Procylon]

Fascism Autocracy Industrial Era
Quantity of Strategic Resources produced increases by 100%

So if you're really needing that extra carrier, then Autocracy is great ;)

Meh. :p

Maybe I will always have the arabs in my games so I can put the vise to them for all their oil.

[ctiberius]

Well, one problem is that aircraft don't get to move around the map. They only have missions.

Of course, such missions are fine for striking a target 4 hexes away, but they don't work for recon. You can't tip toe around enemy air defenses and cities with 1 shot missions like you could if you were moving the spy plane around hex by hex.

I liked CtP's spy plane with the 10 tile sight range. It was pretty much what a spy plane is supposed to be.


In many ways though, to make a scout, all you have to do is upgrade it with the +sight and +move promotions. Though, you do need barracks to start with them.

Or CtP's orbital satellites and sat killers. Why has Civ never had sats or space-based units? I mean, we DO have spacecraft in the modern era.

Orig idea is very good in my opinion. But seems to not be in line with what has been stated in the podcasts and 2 hour demo about fewer units that are nurtured over hundreds of turns. Sounds like they expect you'll still have your original scouts in the modern era (must be a new tech that stops human aging process in your soldiers and lets them live for thousands of years)

[MadDjinn]

Or CtP's orbital satellites and sat killers. Why has Civ never had sats or space-based units? I mean, we DO have spacecraft in the modern era.

Orig idea is very good in my opinion. But seems to not be in line with what has been stated in the podcasts and 2 hour demo about fewer units that are nurtured over hundreds of turns. Sounds like they expect you'll still have your original scouts in the modern era (must be a new tech that stops human aging process in your soldiers and lets them live for thousands of years)

yeah, and every other unit has upgrade paths ;) Just wanting the scouts to get the same treatment.

[Procylon]

Or CtP's orbital satellites and sat killers. Why has Civ never had sats or space-based units? I mean, we DO have spacecraft in the modern era.

Orig idea is very good in my opinion. But seems to not be in line with what has been stated in the podcasts and 2 hour demo about fewer units that are nurtured over hundreds of turns. Sounds like they expect you'll still have your original scouts in the modern era (must be a new tech that stops human aging process in your soldiers and lets them live for thousands of years)

Well, it isn't about the guys in the units, but the organizations that those units represent.

For instance, the 101st airborne isn't filled with a bunch of 80 year old guys who are good because they have been doing it since WW2. It is filled with young guys who are good at what they do because their organization has been focused on that one task for 70 years and knows how to get the job done. Starting a new organization up from scratch misses out on that inherent knowledge and experience that organizations pass down over the years.


And yeah, we need satellites in Civ 5... CtP had an excellent space layer concept. Won't be happening though.