Can I sell the game once finished?

[lancia12]

The title says it all. Can I sell it once I finish playing? I don't use Steam but have seen systems like this and usually it is impossible to sell a game "tied" to some service like this. Is this the case with Steam too?

[Akar]

You can't sell it after your done.

[lancia12]

You can't sell it after your done.

Figured as much. That really sucks because I could overlook all the negatives of Steam if I could sell the game when I was done. Oh well, chalk another game up to a no-sale because of DRM.

[VainApocalypse]

Actually, he could sell it. He would just have to sell his whole Steam account, and it would be a rather shady exchange.

[slowtarget]

Actually, he could sell it. He would just have to sell his whole Steam account, and it would be a rather shady exchange.

And it would be a violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement. If Valve ever noticed, they would cancel the account, possibly generating a rather annoyed "customer".

[Steppa]

There's no such thing as "finish" with a Civ game. There's always "one more turn" (TM)

[allypower]

Oh no not another licensing vs. selling thread. So here are what I know. I'm not taking any sides.

1. First sale doctrine - The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule." - This has been established by the Supreme Court of the U.S.

2. The game runs through Steam meaning you can't sell the game, taking away your "right" as a consumer.

"Right" - here as in you might not have it for the following argument.

3. One could argue that - you didn't really buy the game but rather the service or maybe you bought the license to play the game but do not buy the game itself

Nowaday there has been many occasion where publishers defined what is copyright by putting in extra terms in the EULA. Why does it matter?

It doesn't for a normal, casual player. However effectively it reserves the publisher the right to sue you for copyright infringement if you sell the game second hand or even cheat i.e. violate the EULA. Even if you didn't open the box.


If you read the Starcraft 2 manual, in the EULA it reads "This game is licensed, not sold" - Though I found it funny (I went to the store, paid 60$ for it and now it said I didn't buy the game >.<) - but I complete agree with the publisher right to do this, just that they should post this note in CAPS on the box rather than hide it in the manual.

The argument comes down to "what exactly constitute a sale?" and and there are many legal battles over this. There are many questions to settle the most important is:

If you go to the store pay money to get the game. Did you buy the game or not? Can the publisher just simply put in the EULA "this is not a sale"?

For examples (in layman language)

Mdy v. Blizzard - the someone created a cheat in World of Warcraft, violated the EULA, being sued for copyright infringement. Blizzard won in the 9th District Court the because the Judge found that the computer did copy the information into RAM - hence the copyright infringment. The case is being appealed to the 9th Circuit Court.

Vernor v. Autodesk - someone tries to sell autodesk product on ebay. autodesk shut it down, the guy tries to seek relief through court, i.e., seeking for protection from possible copyright infringment through First Sale Doctrine. Autodesk disagree claiming that according to the EULA, the guy never bought the product to begin with. The 9th District Court finds it difficult to decide, because of contradicting previous cases, but settles to let Vernor wins by using the earliest case. I believe Autodesk has appealed as well.


These two cases will possibly go to the supreme court in the next few years and will probably tremendously affect the future software community.

[Akar]

Figured as much. That really sucks because I could overlook all the negatives of Steam if I could sell the game when I was done. Oh well, chalk another game up to a no-sale because of DRM.

1. Install steam
2. Install civ
3. Play through civ
4. Uninstall civ
5. Uninstall steam
6. Have no DRM
7. ???
8. Profit

[JayFirelance]

Figured as much. That really sucks because I could overlook all the negatives of Steam if I could sell the game when I was done. Oh well, chalk another game up to a no-sale because of DRM.

That is the only negative of steam. You cannot resell. Steam is not DRM, because DRM limits the game to YOUR MACHINE. Steam limits the game to YOU. Even if you have to generalize Steam into DRM, it's way better than most, like SecuROM. Besides, any real Civ players will not resell a Civ game. Ever heard of "ONE MORE TURN"?

[Liberal]

@ allypower

In the case of Steam, you're buying neither a game nor a license. You're buying a subscription.

[allypower]

@ Liberal

You're correct. But what about those who went to the store to get the game?

[Liberal]

@ Liberal

You're correct. But what about those who went to the store to get the game?They still must subscribe to Steam in order to install the game. There's just no way around it.

[tfordp]

They still must subscribe to Steam in order to install the game. There's just no way around it.

Is this also valid for the upcoming demo? Or rather; does the demo also need Steam to work, or can it be played as a 'stand-alone' trial?
Sorry if this is written somewhere else (link?), but it's something that bothers me.

[unikey]

all of the anti piracy methods penalise those that have bought the game, Starcraft 2 is a prime example it is competely unplayable as a lan party even with 20mb adsl constant lag constant disconnect's and skirmish mode doesn't work offline! even single player I get constant disconnects and launch errors only seems to stay authorised for offline use for about 15 mins its so bad that I'm using cracks to play the original! all with no info back from blizzard and no response either in the forums or to tech support, I don't like steam either and its almost enough to put me of buying civ5 but its CIV so i've already preordered despite steam especially as stardock have proved that the no DRM model works those that are going to use pirates will anyway..anyone want to bet civ5 isnt up on thepiratebay on the day of launch?

[Liberal]

Is this also valid for the upcoming demo? Or rather; does the demo also need Steam to work, or can it be played as a 'stand-alone' trial?
Sorry if this is written somewhere else (link?), but it's something that bothers me.I'm sorry, but I don't know. If slowtarget happens by, he will be able to tell you. You can, in fact, shoot him a PM.

[Valgua]

The title says it all. Can I sell it once I finish playing? I don't use Steam but have seen systems like this and usually it is impossible to sell a game "tied" to some service like this. Is this the case with Steam too?


You will not stop playing Civ5.

[EnigmaCode]

Is this also valid for the upcoming demo? Or rather; does the demo also need Steam to work, or can it be played as a 'stand-alone' trial?
Sorry if this is written somewhere else (link?), but it's something that bothers me.

I'm not sure about the answer to your question. However, I think that yes, you will need Steam to play the trial (demo) version. It seems logical to me, considering that Steamworks is needed to play the game anyways and that Steam seems to be the easiest way to manage/track the demo.

However, as I said earlier, I just don't know You could try asking slowtarget (as he is a very informative person) or 2K Greg or perhaps just wait until the demo comes out. :p

[EnigmaCode]

You will not stop playing Civ5.

Until Civ VI comes that is. :p

[tfordp]

I'm sorry, but I don't know. If slowtarget happens by, he will be able to tell you. You can, in fact, shoot him a PM.


I'm not sure about the answer to your question. However, I think that yes, you will need Steam to play the trial (demo) version. It seems logical to me, considering that Steamworks is needed to play the game anyways and that Steam seems to be the easiest way to manage/track the demo.

However, as I said earlier, I just don't know You could try asking slowtarget (as he is a very informative person) or 2K Greg or perhaps just wait until the demo comes out. :p

Hmm, thanks for the answers, slowtarget picked this one up in the proper thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77593&page=3)for it:


I'd say its safe to assume that the demo will be run through Steam. This is one of the parts of Steam that developers like. It makes it easy to put out demos. Steam likes supporting demos because it gets people to install Steam, even if they decide not to buy the game.

So, its not an official answer, but until Greg comes by to say I'm wrong: Yeah, it'll run through Steam.

And just to finish the saga, here my reply:


Thanks for the answer. That would be a bummer to be sure. So if my minimum requirements aren't enough after all, as I find out using the demo, I'm still registered with Steam. No like. :(

Now just sit back and wait for an official word from 2K [holds breath]

[slowtarget]

Hmm, thanks for the answers, slowtarget picked this one up in the proper thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77593&page=3)for it:

I also responded to your response.

The short version for anyone not wanting to follow the link:

Just create a throwaway account using a throwaway email address to try out the demo. Create your real account later if you decide to buy the game.

And, yes, this sort of thing does pad Steam's user base statistics and yes, that is a reason to always under-estimate the number of actual Steam users when looking at account numbers.

[B-29 Bomber]

I don't know about steam. Never even heard about till firaxis announced they would be using it for civ 5. If a DRM is what I think it it is then I've had a problem with GTA IV. But if downloading user made stuff is as easy as in spore(just to inform you i didn't actually like the actual game. just the online service that came with it) then I'm game. I'll just hold my judgement when the first reports come in. Which is what anyone who has an issue with DRMs should do. Who knows maybe they get it right.

[Akar]

all of the anti piracy methods penalise those that have bought the game, Starcraft 2 is a prime example it is competely unplayable as a lan party even with 20mb adsl constant lag constant disconnect's and skirmish mode doesn't work offline! even single player I get constant disconnects and launch errors only seems to stay authorised for offline use for about 15 mins its so bad that I'm using cracks to play the original! all with no info back from blizzard and no response either in the forums or to tech support, I don't like steam either and its almost enough to put me of buying civ5 but its CIV so i've already preordered despite steam especially as stardock have proved that the no DRM model works those that are going to use pirates will anyway..anyone want to bet civ5 isnt up on thepiratebay on the day of launch?

If I am correct steam games are harder than most games to pirate. And steam is easy to set up for lan parties. Just instal steam on all computers. Log in on computer A, instal game. Play in offline mode. Log in on computer B, instal game, log out. Ect, ect.

[slowtarget]

If I am correct steam games are harder than most games to pirate. And steam is easy to set up for lan parties. Just instal steam on all computers. Log in on computer A, instal game. Play in offline mode. Log in on computer B, instal game, log out. Ect, ect.

It's certainly easier to defeat the weak versions of SecuROM than it is to defeat Steam. However, its harder to defeat some of the strong DRMs than it is to defeat Steam.

That's not the point, though. Valve seems to understand that you don't have to prevent piracy to be effective. Steam's biggest advantage in the fight against piracy is by simply providing a service that is as good or better than the pirates. Sure, I can search around and find a cracked version of a game. I can start bittorrent and download the files at 500K/s (if I'm lucky). Then, once its done, I virus-scan it. Then I scan it for malware. Then I install it and rescan for both again. Then, I can play and do my thing... until a patch comes out. Then I need to go do it all over again (most likely).

Or I can go to Steam. I don't have to search for a torrent. I don't have to worry about viruses or malware. I generally download as fast as my local ISP allows (I regularly get 1-2GB/s... yes gigabytes). When updates come out, they get downloaded and applied for me (because I asked for that).

DRM is meant to convert people who would pirate a game into people would will buy a game. Some DRMs do this by making it painful to bypass them. Steam does this by making it very convenient to buy games. Sure, it doesn't get all of them, and maybe not even most of them, but I'd guess that is better at converting pirates to buyers than almost any other DRM on the market.

[Jintaka]

Oh boo hoo you have to create a steam account to play Civ 5. Ever stop to think you might like steam. They have an ever growing selection of great games. Midweek and weekend specials. If that is not your thing kudos. Just install the game/steam create your account. Then turn steam into offline mode and forget it exist.

Also who sales PC games? Honestly i have well over 120 PC titles at my house in storage just waiting for me to get all sentimental. Civilization II - IV included also those two Call to Power Games that where total rip offs by Activision.

[JayFirelance]

Oh boo hoo you have to create a steam account to play Civ 5. Ever stop to think you might like steam. They have an ever growing selection of great games. Midweek and weekend specials. If that is not your thing kudos. Just install the game/steam create your account. Then turn steam into offline mode and forget it exist.


This guy is right. There is a major benefit to Steam. They often have free play weekends, sales, and sometimes free games. It's just a really good business model.

[leon]

Also who sales PC games? Honestly i have well over 120 PC titles at my house in storage just waiting for me to get all sentimental. Civilization II - IV included also those two Call to Power Games that where total rip offs by Activision.

Does it matter that you don't sell PC games?

To answer your question: OVER 9000!!!!

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=pc%20game%20used&=&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[Jintaka]

Does it matter that you don't sell PC games?

To answer your question: OVER 9000!!!!

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=pc%20game%20used&=&_sacat=See-All-Categories

My momma once told me the world was full of fools. I guess that makes you one.

[Akar]

My momma once told me the world was full of fools. I guess that makes you one.

Here is a cool link for you. http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy147/Akar_2010/Untitled-19.png?t=1281550622

[Jintaka]

Here is a cool link for you. http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy147/Akar_2010/Untitled-19.png?t=1281550622

Close your eyes and go to the place you fear worst. Open your eyes and see me there smiling at you. :eek:

[B-29 Bomber]

Oh boo hoo you have to create a steam account to play Civ 5. Ever stop to think you might like steam. They have an ever growing selection of great games. Midweek and weekend specials. If that is not your thing kudos. Just install the game/steam create your account. Then turn steam into offline mode and forget it exist.

Also who sales PC games? Honestly i have well over 120 PC titles at my house in storage just waiting for me to get all sentimental. Civilization II - IV included also those two Call to Power Games that where total rip offs by Activision.

Yeah that's my point. No one ever knows if something will be good(for certain) until they get it. All those people that say they wont get civ 5 because of steam are being premature. Sure they can be right, but they can be wrong, too. This also depends on the individual computer. Remember anything that can go wrong will go wrong at least once. If you have reason to believe, like me, that something will go wrong then wait until the price goes down so that you wont risk so much money.

[unikey]

snip..
DRM is meant to convert people who would pirate a game into people would will buy a game. Some DRMs do this by making it painful to bypass them. Steam does this by making it very convenient to buy games. Sure, it doesn't get all of them, and maybe not even most of them, but I'd guess that is better at converting pirates to buyers than almost any other DRM on the market.

all of the above snip included is completely valid however I distrust any software that phones and no none of my windows machines do, I like to have total control over my webtraffic its why I run a DMZ at home but I also spend on average 6 nights a week on the road and am reilant on mobile internet with a tight download limit so digital doesn't work for me most of the time. all DRM has negative impact in some way one on law abiding customers some more so than others (secureRom used to give me grief cause I had a SCSI system) I do object to exclusive content on download and would happily pay more for a disk copy as I appreciate the extra costs involved and to being treated like a criminal because of the actions of the minority. I have been involved in this debate since the early days no DRM has ever defeated piracy and never will its seen as a challenge by certain people,
It also puts off a significant number of customers from buying the product personally I've bought civ and will put up with steamworks (will be annoyed if theres a massive download for the disk version) however after starcraft 2 I wont be buying diablo 3 when it comes out the possible agro getting it working isn't worth it for the fun i'l get playing the game

If your product is good people will buy it, whatever you do people will steal it, DRM serves no useful purpose and until it has no impact on legitimate users it just encourages piracy

[unikey]

snip..
DRM is meant to convert people who would pirate a game into people would will buy a game. Some DRMs do this by making it painful to bypass them. Steam does this by making it very convenient to buy games. Sure, it doesn't get all of them, and maybe not even most of them, but I'd guess that is better at converting pirates to buyers than almost any other DRM on the market.

all of the above snip included is completely valid however I distrust any software that phones and no none of my windows machines do, I like to have total control over my webtraffic its why I run a DMZ at home but I also spend on average 6 nights a week on the road and am reliant on mobile internet with a tight download limit so digital doesn't work for me most of the time. all DRM has negative impact in some way on law abiding customers some more so than others (secureRom used to give me grief because I had a SCSI system) I do object to exclusive content on download and would happily pay more for a disk copy as I appreciate the extra costs involved and to being treated like a criminal because of the actions of the minority. I have been involved in this debate since the early days and no DRM has ever defeated piracy and never will its seen as a challenge by certain people,
It also puts off a significant number of customers from buying the product personally I've bought civ and will put up with steamworks (will be annoyed if theres a massive download for the disk version) however after starcraft 2 I wont be buying diablo 3 when it comes out as the possible agro getting it working isn't worth it for the fun i'll get playing the game

If your product is good people will buy it, whatever you do people will steal it, DRM serves no useful purpose and until it has no impact on legitimate users it just encourages piracy

[VainApocalypse]

And it would be a violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement. If Valve ever noticed, they would cancel the account, possibly generating a rather annoyed "customer".

As I said, a shady transaction, so what's your point?