Enemy health

[Gameplayer03]

Hi all! I have just recently signed up in the forums, although I have been reading them for several months, I should have signed up a long time ago......

But anyways, I am a huge fan of the original bioshock (Bioshock 2 LE has been preordered and I'm counting down the days :D ) and am currently trying to achieve the brass balls achievement. I think that one of the biggest (and very few) flaws with the game was how the enemy's health drastically climbed towards the end of the game, to the point that any weapon using just standard ammo would require at least one reload to kill the lowest splicer. Even after finding all the power to the people machines the only weapon I found to be powerful was the cross-bow, and of course the wrench if you have the right tonics, event when using anti-personnal ammo I felt like the weapons should have more power. Several other people I know who have played the game mention the same thing.

So does anyone know if the good folks at 2k have addressed the issue? Hopefully Bioshock 2 doesn't have this problem.

[DavidtheBrave1]

Unfortunately for you, I belive enemies now have more health.

[ramzca]

I got both Brass Balls and Seriously Good at This is one run through; and I had no problem killing enemies. Though Big Daddies were a pain in the ass, everything thing else was easy; especially Fontaine. He was so easy.

I mean, might be because I had a fully upgraded shotgun and thompson, but all the splicers died quickly at the end of the game.

[dewder74]

The chemical-thrower, when loaded with electric gel, made taking on Fontaine easy as pie.

[Gameplayer03]

Don't get me wrong, I love to be challenged in a videogame. Maybe it's just me but I felt that it kind of wrinkled the flow of the game. I just felt like most of the weapons were underpowered towards the end, rendering most of them useless or inconvienent to battle with (such as the revolver). That and I pretty much just stuck to the cross-bow once I got it, I really hope that 2k balanced the weapons better in bioshock 2.

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

Hi all! I have just recently signed up in the forums, although I have been reading them for several months, I should have signed up a long time ago......

But anyways, I am a huge fan of the original bioshock (Bioshock 2 LE has been preordered and I'm counting down the days :D ) and am currently trying to achieve the brass balls achievement. I think that one of the biggest (and very few) flaws with the game was how the enemy's health drastically climbed towards the end of the game, to the point that any weapon using just standard ammo would require at least one reload to kill the lowest splicer. Even after finding all the power to the people machines the only weapon I found to be powerful was the cross-bow, and of course the wrench if you have the right tonics, event when using anti-personnal ammo I felt like the weapons should have more power. Several other people I know who have played the game mention the same thing.

So does anyone know if the good folks at 2k have addressed the issue? Hopefully Bioshock 2 doesn't have this problem.

This is where clever use of Plasmids come into play. It's the hardest difficulty, it's not supposed to be easy, nor is it an "issue" that needs to be addressed. Some people find it hard, some other people find it easy. I didn't find Brass Balls all that difficult. I did die a few times, but that was more due to the fact that I was playing well into the night and was tired. Wasn't paying much attention to health. BioShock is about strategy, not run n gun.

(edit) That's like complaining that Through the Fire and the Flames is too hard on Guitar Hero 3. It's supposed to be hard. While lots of people say it's unbeatable, there are still lots of people that can 100% it.

It's also possible to go through the entire game not directly attacking anybody. Hack turrets/bots/cameras and use the Winter Blast, Enrage, Hypnotize Big Daddy, Security Bullseye, and Target Dummy plasmids. Also, that one invisibility Tonic works wonders. Even on the hardest difficulty this works.

[Gameplayer03]

The chemical-thrower, when loaded with electric gel, made taking on Fontaine easy as pie.

Ya I'm not really complaining about the final "boss" :p .Fountain was cake compaired to a houdini splicer, he was too easy!

[Gameplayer03]

This is where clever use of Plasmids come into play. It's the hardest difficulty, it's not supposed to be easy, nor is it an "issue" that needs to be addressed. Some people find it hard, some other people find it easy. I didn't find Brass Balls all that difficult. I did die a few times, but that was more due to the fact that I was playing well into the night and was tired. Wasn't paying much attention to health. BioShock is about strategy, not run n gun.

Of course! Which is why I love the game, I'm not just talking about the hard difficulty, any of them it seemed like enemy health was ramped way up way fast, and some of the weapons felt unbalanced and I never used them. I believe that it is an issue, bioshock is my favorite game I don't really like run n gun games....I don't think you understand what I am saying....

[panda rave]

I found very few weapons in bioshock to be inefficient with the right preparation.

when fully upgraded and used in conjunction with the right tonics these are the most effective weapons in the game in order best to worst.

chemical thrower ( THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON it also ensures that you take no damage when fighting a big daddy )

-tonics
electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

research camera ( although not a weapon it potentially increase all damage dealt by 150% )

-tonics
research damage 1&2
photographers eye 1&2


crossbow ( great damage but has a painfully slow reload and rate of fire )

-tonics
natural camouflage
electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

wrench ( can do descent damage and uses no resources, unfortunately it requires more tonics than other weapons to become truly effective )

-tonics
wrench jokey 1&2
wrench lurker 1&2
sports boost 1&2

all the other weapons can be used with very little difficulty but the above are the best in terms of damage dealt vs cost/damage received

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

research camera ( although not a weapon it potentially increase all damage dealt by 150% )

-tonics
research damage 1&2
photographers eye 1&2

electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

wrench jokey 1&2
wrench lurker 1&2
sports boost 1&2


That's something I forgot to mention, using both versions of a tonic will give you both the multipliers. You don't necessarily want to get rid of Electric Flesh when you get Electric Flesh 2, you may instead want to keep them both active. And ALWAYS remember the good ol' "one two punch".

I personally liked the big change in enemy health, it made the last stretch feel more compelling.

[Gameplayer03]

I found very few weapons in bioshock to be inefficient with the right preparation.

when fully upgraded and used in conjunction with the right tonics these are the most effective weapons in the game in order best to worst.

chemical thrower ( THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON it also ensures that you take no damage when fighting a big daddy )

-tonics
electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

research camera ( although not a weapon it potentially increase all damage dealt by 150% )

-tonics
research damage 1&2
photographers eye 1&2


crossbow ( great damage but has a painfully slow reload and rate of fire )

-tonics
natural camouflage
electric flesh 1&2
human inferno 1&2

wrench ( can do descent damage and uses no resources, unfortunately it requires more tonics than other weapons to become truly effective )

-tonics
wrench jokey 1&2
wrench lurker 1&2
sports boost 1&2

all the other weapons can be used with very little difficulty but the above are the best in terms of damage dealt vs cost/damage received

Yeah I agree, forgot to mention the chem thrower its a beast!! I did alot of photo shoots throughout my playthroughs of rapture and unlocked alot of tonics with it. But don't you guys think that there was a problem with weapon balance or enemy health? I guess it's either one or the other, but the pistol, tommy gun, shotgun, and grenade launcher felt too weak, the other weapons just dwarfed them (especially the cross bow).

[panda rave]

That's something I forgot to mention, using both versions of a tonic will give you both the multipliers. You don't necessarily want to get rid of Electric Flesh when you get Electric Flesh 2, you may instead want to keep them both active. And ALWAYS remember the good ol' "one two punch".

I personally liked the big change in enemy health, it made the last stretch feel more compelling.

yeah some people overlook that which makes their job harder:p

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

Yeah I agree, forgot to mention the chem thrower its a beast!! I did alot of photo shoots throughout my playthroughs of rapture and unlocked alot of tonics with it. But don't you guys think that there was a problem with weapon balance or enemy health? I guess it's either one or the other, but the pistol, tommy gun, shotgun, and grenade launcher felt too weak, the other weapons just dwarfed them (especially the cross bow).

I never had a problem as long as I used anti-personell rounds, along with an upgraded gun. The shotgun was the only gun I had trouble with, but that was because I always have it loaded with electric buck, and electric buck doesn't work on Splicers that have Electric Flesh. It took me a bit to realize that.

But, electric buck is still extremely useful against a bouncer.

[Black-Leader]

I think the big daddies, rosies in particular, have too much attack power, I'm still trying to beat the first rosie in neptune's bounty (on hard w/no vita chambers).

[panda rave]

I think the big daddies, rosies in particular, have too much attack power, I'm still trying to beat the first rosie in neptune's bounty (on hard w/no vita chambers).

wow a coincidence, I'm doing a hard w/o vita chambers playthrough right now.
okay here's the trick, under both decks there's a turret now this whole ordeal could be made easier if you bypass the big daddy and go get the grenade launcher but if you don't the principle is the same.
hack both turrets a few splicers will spawn but you can avoid them or choose to kill them. equip all Armour piercing rounds and electric buck.
now stand near the door you first came through use telekinesis to hurl the barrels near you at the rosie, wait for the turrets to start attacking the rosie.
use the electric buck to stop the rosie from destroying your turrets when they are all gone finish her off with the nade launcher

[Grayskin]

yeah i noticed that aswell, all i used in the last 2 sections was the crossbow, proximity mines and my ice wrench, never used electric gel or winter blast

the first game was very "fishing by the lake" in terms of the amount of enemys you would fight at once, the second game looks a lot more "ahhhh run for the hills" with a lot more stuff going on on screen

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

I think the big daddies, rosies in particular, have too much attack power, I'm still trying to beat the first rosie in neptune's bounty (on hard w/no vita chambers).

Just pile up the oil tanks (there's PLENTY in that area) and wait for it to walk by. Then shoot the tanks. Taking on a Rosie is always best with a hard hitting first attack, and then finish off with electric buck. Do it right, and you won't take damage. Big Daddies are supposed to be brutes. There's no such thing as "too much" attack power. It only makes it that much more satisfying when you kill it (although I may just be hardened from playing all that Ninja Gaiden. If any game has overpowered enemies, that'd be it)


wow a coincidence, I'm doing a hard w/o vita chambers playthrough right now.
okay here's the trick, under both decks there's a turret now this whole ordeal could be made easier if you bypass the big daddy and go get the grenade launcher but if you don't the principle is the same.
hack both turrets a few splicers will spawn but you can avoid them or choose to kill them. equip all Armour piercing rounds and electric buck.
now stand near the door you first came through use telekinesis to hurl the barrels near you at the rosie, wait for the turrets to start attacking the rosie.
use the electric buck to stop the rosie from destroying your turrets when they are all gone finish her off with the nade launcher

And remember, NEVER do that highlighted part while it's firing at you. Chances are it'll just blow up in your face.

[MarshallSucks]

crossbow ( great damage but has a painfully slow reload and rate of fire )

After firing the Crossbow, quickly switch to a Plasmid and back to the Crossbow. It will speed up the rate of fire.

[Suicidle Splicer]

That's something I forgot to mention, using both versions of a tonic will give you both the multipliers. You don't necessarily want to get rid of Electric Flesh when you get Electric Flesh 2, you may instead want to keep them both active. And ALWAYS remember the good ol' "one two punch".

I personally liked the big change in enemy health, it made the last stretch feel more compelling.

I didn't know this, thanks!:D But what i think he is trying to say is how the sudden increase in difficulty is bad and some weapons just aren't as good as others. I wouldn't know because i suck at videogames and never played on the hardest difficulty or found all the power to the people stations. But i know how sudden difficulty increases are annoying. *thinks of [Prototype] and shivers*

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

I didn't know this, thanks!:D But what i think he is trying to say is how the sudden increase in difficulty is bad and some weapons just aren't as good as others. I wouldn't know because i suck at videogames and never played on the hardest difficulty or found all the power to the people stations. But i know how sudden difficulty increases are annoying. *thinks of [Prototype] and shivers*

Like I stated above, I'm used to Ninja Gaiden. Even on the lowest difficulty, Ninja Gaiden's combat is nothing to scoff at, it requires you to be constantly alert and know when to attack/dodge/block/counter attack. Being used to the complexity of that makes things like BioShock seem simple. I'm not downplaying BioShock by saying that mind you. BioShock is about playing the way you want, and I love that. I have never played Prototype. I thought it looked promising at first, then it looked to much like every other sandbox superhero game (Ultimate Spider-Man was the only one that's ever been worth it. I love Venom! SM3 ruined Venom...). But yes, I suppose the difficulty does have a sudden increase. But, I like it. Prefer it even. It made the fights more life and death, not "I'm going to kill you".

[PoeticMadnesss]

I'm personally hoping that the health increases...I was able to fully Platinum BioShock in one runthrough with the game. (not on my first try, i decided to make a new account to go for the trophies again) and I still found it decently easy...But still not TOO easy. It was a challenge, but it was possible. O.o

Still, slightly harder would be good, in my honest opinion. :D

[ø.O.L. (which isn't me)]

I'm personally hoping that the health increases...I was able to fully Platinum BioShock in one runthrough with the game. (not on my first try, i decided to make a new account to go for the trophies again) and I still found it decently easy...But still not TOO easy. It was a challenge, but it was possible. O.o

Still, slightly harder would be good, in my honest opinion. :D

Have you ever seen System Shock (2?)'s difficulty settings? It was pretty cool, you could change the difficulties of specific things, like combat, puzzles, and story (putting the story on the highest difficulty made it so you had to beat the game within a certain time frame). I'd like to see that kind of thing implemented in modern games.

And I agree, a harder difficulty is always welcome. Unless of course you're Call of Duty, then "harder" means "enemies now spam grenades non stop...":mad:

[BiggerDaddier]

I felt that the life totals of enemies in Bioshock original scaled up fairly appropriately to match your ever-improving arsenal. The slope wasn't constant, of course, but I think that that was more of a function of how you can build your character than poor design. Take the research camera, for example. You can completely finish researching leadheads within 15 minutes of getting it, whereas researching big daddies and security bots can take several levels (unless you specifically take the time to make them repeatedly respawn >.>). Leadheads are, therefore, gonna be pretty underpowered for a long time, but by the end of the game they will finally have outstripped the benefits you gained back in Neptune's Bounty. So it will feel like their health has gone *way* up by Prometheus, but I suspect that their health is in reality scaled quite similar to the other enemies.

Also by the end I'm sure the devs were assuming that not only had we upgraded our arsenals most of the way, but that we had also expanded them to the max *and* been able to hit our 'grooves' with finding the combos that worked the best for us. Given these non-linear factors, it makes sense that enemies needed to pack a huge punch to keep it challenging for us.

Now, I agree in a sense that huge health bars are not the best way to go about making enemies harder. It definitely works, don't get me wrong, but killing someone in 5 shots instead of 3 doesn't make me feel much better about myself. I'd much rather take on more of them, or (while it's not realistic, I know) actually have their base AI improve such that the mental challenge improves along with the amount of hurt needed to take them down. Don't get me wrong, what with enemies mimicking corpses Bioshock actually did a very good job (relative to most other shooters) of this... but even here it was essentially all scripted events. Which is still ok, but not precisely what I'm dreaming about. Having dabbled in some game AI myself, I know that it's tough enough to even get the simplest stuff to look OK, much less to get an array of AI constructs up and running at measurably different skill levels.

Hopefully, what with Bioshock 2's promised focus on larger-number combat, we will be able to see larger hordes of better-armed splicers running full tilt at us, rather than just individual dudes who seem to have spliced foot-thick Kevlar.

[Painman]

Have you ever seen System Shock (2?)'s difficulty settings? It was pretty cool, you could change the difficulties of specific things, like combat, puzzles, and story (putting the story on the highest difficulty made it so you had to beat the game within a certain time frame). I'd like to see that kind of thing implemented in modern games.

And I agree, a harder difficulty is always welcome. Unless of course you're Call of Duty, then "harder" means "enemies now spam grenades non stop...":mad:

It was the 1st System Shock that had separate difficulties for all the different stuff, and the countdown timer if you put the story on Hard. SS2 was also fairly tough if you played it on Hard though.

In any case, Props for remembering those tidbits about SS1. :)

BioShock 1 - I'm actually gonna call the wrench the most unbalanced weapon in that game. As pointed out, it depends on your tonic loadout, but I just finished it again maybe a week ago, using mostly wrench, and it was basically like this:

Physical tonics - both SportBoosts, Natural Camo, Bloodlust
Engineering tonics - All hack-related
Combat tonics - Both Wrench Jockeys, both Wrench Lurkers, and the Damage Research tonics as I discovered them.

It was... really not too tough, even on Hard. I had the environment working for me, and aside from that, killing splicers was mostly a matter of ambush. Sneak up behind, or wait for them to walk past. Failing that, a good 'ol Bum Rush also worked most of the time, thanks to Bloodlust allowing me to leech health. I don't want to say it was *entirely* a cakewalk, but in situations where you only had one splicer in your way, there wasn't much to worry about. Furthermore, since there was no ammo use, you were tripping over lockboxes full of goodies a lot of the time. The only significant resource drag was getting rid of a Big Daddy, but oftentimes you could find enough oil barrels/gas cylinders laying around to KO them, if you set up your trap and waited for them to walk into it.

But getting back to Bioshock 2... Yes, I do hope there's more balance and challenge, since I came to feel like I was defeating many of BS1's play mechanics as a fully optimized Wrench guy. I didn't need much ammo, and I didn't need much EVE... I just didn't use guns or plasmids very much. I spent the most on health stations, but at 10 dollars a pop for a full refresh, and lockboxes all over the place, I wasn't running out of cash either.

If they make BS2 a tougher game (even a MUCH tougher game), I'm all for it. I think the first BioShock did its job well, assuming its job was to introduce a particular flavor of emergent gameplay to a wide audience, but for a lot of us folks who were pre-coached by games like System Shock, it was a bit of a letdown because the "survival horror" aspect of SS was only present for a short time. Medical was great, because Jack still sucked, but for a player who's already predisposed to trying to be as efficient as possible in games like this, the efficiency pays off in spades before very long.

Hoo-boy, I ended up typing a lot (my first post here in a long time)... I've preordered BS2, so I'll be feverishly playing it alongside most y'all, and I mostly do just hope that it's tougher. I'm sure I'll like the story, and I already like the setting... just make it touger.

[GJOk]

The only thing I found a bit wierd was that enemies suddenly went from super easy to fairly hard with no middle ground. I don't think enemies at the end of the game were hard, I just wish there was a better lead up to them.

E.g. Weaker splicers at start, who getting a bit stronger, then a bit more, then more etc as the game goes on.

[Sande]

I'm personally hoping that the health increases...I was able to fully Platinum BioShock in one runthrough with the game. (not on my first try, i decided to make a new account to go for the trophies again) and I still found it decently easy...But still not TOO easy. It was a challenge, but it was possible. O.o

Still, slightly harder would be good, in my honest opinion. :D
I agree that Bioshock 2 should be harder but not by increasing enemy health. Giving the player less first aid kits, ammo and money would be better in my opinion.

[KillaManiac]

I agree that Bioshock 2 should be harder but not by increasing enemy health. Giving the player less first aid kits, ammo and money would be better in my opinion.



There is valid points for both Health Upscale and Less Supplies.

-As you progress with story you are always upgrading ammo/guns/plasmids and finding more supplies in general. Since the splicers don't have the inventory arsenal as we do...I find health upscaling to be completely fine (to some extent).

-Less supplies however make you think more about the situation. It brings way more of the strategic element into play. Using more different weapon bullets or plasmids that you wouldn't normally use.


And also....I could be wrong but didn't the higher the difficulty setting in Bioshock 1 actually give you less supplies?

[PoeticMadnesss]

The only thing I found a bit wierd was that enemies suddenly went from super easy to fairly hard with no middle ground. I don't think enemies at the end of the game were hard, I just wish there was a better lead up to them.

E.g. Weaker splicers at start, who getting a bit stronger, then a bit more, then more etc as the game goes on.

Unfortunatley I think that this would create a feeling of stagnation within the game, because the enemies would increase in difficulty at the same rate that you would increase in abilities, making the game seem like its staying at the same difficulty throughout the entire game.

I can just imagine Jordan Thomas following this thread, laughing to himself, thinking "You guys have no idea what's in store for yourselves.", following it up with a maniacle laugh.

[Gameplayer03]

I agree that Bioshock 2 should be harder but not by increasing enemy health. Giving the player less first aid kits, ammo and money would be better in my opinion.

Exactly, like I said earlier I don't mind a challenge but who can say they honestly used the pistol towards the end of the game? It was completely useless, even with anti-personnal ammo it would take at least 6 shots, even if you lit em on fire before shooting. They either needed to change enemy health or balance the weapons differently. I had all splicers fully researched, and in one of the later levels (apollo square to be precise), whenever I came up against a leadhead I had to use incinerate 3 and completely unload my shotgun, and they still were alive. It totally kills player satisfaction, because just a few levels before (fort frolic) just one standard 00buck from my shotgun would blow away a splicer, and if just FELT better.

[Gameplayer03]

[QUOTE=PoeticMadnesss;591417]Unfortunatley I think that this would create a feeling of stagnation within the game, because the enemies would increase in difficulty at the same rate that you would increase in abilities, making the game seem like its staying at the same difficulty throughout the entire game.QUOTE]

Whats wrong with that? Bioshock is one of the very few games I know of that has this mechanic, and bioshock's is taken to a longer extent. Look at games like halo, gears, modern warfare, rainbow 6. They don't increase enemy health to give you a challenge....They throw more enemies at you using better weapons and they up the AI's tactics. That is the way it should be, you even feel better after defeating them because you know you outsmarted them, not just outgunned them by using dozens of plasmids on them and shooting them over and over while they're standing right in front of you.

[panda rave]

The only thing I found a bit wierd was that enemies suddenly went from super easy to fairly hard with no middle ground. I don't think enemies at the end of the game were hard, I just wish there was a better lead up to them.

E.g. Weaker splicers at start, who getting a bit stronger, then a bit more, then more etc as the game goes on.

well you notice fontaine's splicers because they are tougher than Ryans.

[PoeticMadnesss]

Whats wrong with that? Bioshock is one of the very few games I know of that has this mechanic, and bioshock's is taken to a longer extent. Look at games like halo, gears, modern warfare, rainbow 6. They don't increase enemy health to give you a challenge....They throw more enemies at you using better weapons and they up the AI's tactics. That is the way it should be, you even feel better after defeating them because you know you outsmarted them, not just outgunned them by using dozens of plasmids on them and shooting them over and over while they're standing right in front of you.

I was trying to say that just having the splicer's increase in damage and health slowly over time while you get stronger would just make the game seem to stagnate xD But if you mix in the health, damage, increased numbers, better weapons, then the game gets more difficult. Sorry if you were confused or I didn't explain correctly xD I still don't think I'm explaining correctly.

If you have two buckets, and you fill each of them with the same amount of water at the same rate, then both bockets will be proportional to each other in the way that they were proportional in the beginning. There's no differene between the two buckets when compared to each other. What needs to happen is that Bucket A needs to be filled with half the water of Bucket B. (A being Delta, B being enemies) Doing so will mean that the enemies will increase in strength and ability at a rate 2x that of Delta.

I think I explained better there, but not sure. xD

[Sande]

I was trying to say that just having the splicer's increase in damage and health slowly over time while you get stronger would just make the game seem to stagnate xD But if you mix in the health, damage, increased numbers, better weapons, then the game gets more difficult. Sorry if you were confused or I didn't explain correctly xD I still don't think I'm explaining correctly.

If you have two buckets, and you fill each of them with the same amount of water at the same rate, then both bockets will be proportional to each other in the way that they were proportional in the beginning. There's no differene between the two buckets when compared to each other. What needs to happen is that Bucket A needs to be filled with half the water of Bucket B. (A being Delta, B being enemies) Doing so will mean that the enemies will increase in strength and ability at a rate 2x that of Delta.

I think I explained better there, but not sure. xD
In role playing style game player has to get stronger in the course of the game. Your proposition leads to player feeling weaker even when splicing better plasmids and tonics and upgrading weapons.

Of course the game should get harder. Good way to do this is make splicers attack in bigger groups and introducing new tougher enemies, not making the old ones harder to kill.

[Lagging]

In role playing style game player has to get stronger in the course of the game. Your proposition leads to player feeling weaker even when splicing better plasmids and tonics and upgrading weapons.

Of course the game should get harder. Good way to do this is make splicers attack in bigger groups and introducing new tougher enemies, not making the old ones harder to kill.

gawd how i would love that, the whole "i dont know if i should even attempt to kill a splicer with 2 shotgun ammo left" made me kinda fustrated, especially when youre out of money and have no ammo :(