Dom. win in BC on Deity

[kwhooligans]

Hey,

I've been reading up on various threads and it has definately improved my strategy, but I still have no clue on how to get a Domination win in BC on Deity. What is a general strategy for doing this. I read that Petal2Metal did it in 11 turns with Aztec, how do you even get around the map that fast?

Cheers!

kwhooligans

[Think_Before_You_Speak]

Hey,

I've been reading up on various threads and it has definately improved my strategy, but I still have no clue on how to get a Domination win in BC on Deity. What is a general strategy for doing this. I read that Petal2Metal did it in 11 turns with Aztec, how do you even get around the map that fast?

Cheers!

kwhooligans

That was a GOTW in which Pedal was referring to. The GOTW produces the earliest Dom wins as the players can repeat it as often as they like until they find the right seed.

I'm sure there is an Aztec horse rush strategy in the archives. Try looking there. You could also try a Chinese, American or a slightly slower but more powerful Arab horse rush strat.

Early dom wins are usually acquired by horse rushing.

[elthrasher]

I think that 11 turn win was a GotW, which is really a different animal, since you can (through trial and error) play a 100% perfect game. In general, I would say even the best players would have a tough time beating the game without saves or doing GotW in fewer than 20 turns and sometimes that won't even be possible. Depends on the map.

Fast GotW games sometimes use legions because you can get Iron Working off the AI at the start of the game. Regular deity games are normally won by horserushing.

You can do like so:

Play the Aztecs (easiest horserush)

Rush a warrior in 4000 BC (you start with 25 gold) and send that warrior out to beat barbs and get gold.

Set both your workers on the sea and research Horseback Riding by 3500 BC. By now you should have 40 gold to rush a horseman. Put both your workers on trees and keep getting gold and rushing horsemen until you have an army. If you want, do the same and get a second army (advisable if you're trying to finish the game very quickly because cities have no purpose other than to produce horsemen - you don't need techs). Seek out AI cities. Try to avoid contact with AI units as they will become more defensive when they see your army. With practice, you can have your first vet horse army to an enemy cap by around 2900-2800 BC, which is plenty early. Sell the AI Horseback Riding for whatever gold it is willing to offer and then attack. Sometimes on deity you'll be in a situation where the AI can produce a new unit every turn and you won't actually get the city without a second army or the Blitz upgrade.

If you're unlucky or slow, you will eventually come to a situation where your horses are very unlikely to take any more capitals. At that point, you can just play the game out like normal (build settlers in all your caps). If you get 2-3 caps and make settlers in all of them, you can wind up with a huge and sustainable tech lead and can come back later with catapults or knights (still in the BCs) to finish the job.

[kwhooligans]

Thanks for the tips, I think I'll give it a try tonight. Also, as the previous thread has been discussing, this GOTW does rock!

[kwhooligans]

So horse rushing the aztecs worked pretty well, I think I got a 1000BC win and I could have easily improved on that. Is Deity on GOTW different than Deity on regular single player? On single player none of the AI had a GL, what's the deal with that?

Thanks again for the tips

kwhooligans

[Grayson]

So horse rushing the aztecs worked pretty well, I think I got a 1000BC win and I could have easily improved on that. Is Deity on GOTW different than Deity on regular single player? On single player none of the AI had a GL, what's the deal with that?

Thanks again for the tips

kwhooligans

they had to make the AI harder for GOTW, because it had been reduced to ppl finding the absolute fastest ways to win games, often in 10-15 turns. This still happens in GOTW, but it's a lot harder.

in GOTW, the AI starts with a Great Leader, a barracks, Bronze Working and Iron Working.

[elthrasher]

So horse rushing the aztecs worked pretty well, I think I got a 1000BC win and I could have easily improved on that. Is Deity on GOTW different than Deity on regular single player? On single player none of the AI had a GL, what's the deal with that?


Glad it worked out for you. Yeah, the rules are totally different on GotW. The AI all start off with Bronze Working, Iron Working, a Barracks and a GL. Someone mistakenly thought this would make the game more challenging, but most of the time there's a way to get a walk-in on one or more AI caps, so you actually get to claim all this stuff for yourself early on.

In a standard SP deity game, the AI gets a 40% production handicap and that's it. No extra techs or buildings. The AI can also teleport units into the fog of war. Maybe it can do that on lower difficulties as well.

[elthrasher]

they had to make the AI harder for GOTW, because it had been reduced to ppl finding the absolute fastest ways to win games, often in 10-15 turns. This still happens in GOTW, but it's a lot harder.

in GOTW, the AI starts with a Great Leader, a barracks, Bronze Working and Iron Working.

Ha, watch us both reply at the same time saying opposite things. I'll change my tag to Nosyarg now.

[Grayson]

Ha, watch us both reply at the same time saying opposite things. I'll change my tag to Nosyarg now.

well, then I'll be nachsarteht then,

I agree with you in some ways, I'm just saying that they tried to fix it to be harder, but now instead of winning easy with a bunch of horsemen, you've gotta get creative. I think it is harder to find ways to be 30 defense archers, and 45 defense pikemen. It forces you to win faster and faster, not making any mistakes.

On other GOTW maps, it was easy to get to them before they had archers, or defineatly before they had archer armies. Maybe the last civ that you would kill would somehow manage to an archer army, but it would be easily killed by several horsemen armies.

Now, under the new GOTW, you've gotta hope for a walk-in, hope to kill a few of them before they get armies, and then take out the rest with mass amounts of armies, or wait till they do the dumbest GOTW AI move, and move their archer army out to protect a settler.

[Zso_Zso]

However then new "hardness" often turns around and makes it easier. Most weeks, you can get at least 1 cap before they have an archer army up, e.g. buying IW fom them and beating them with their own weapons, and then you get a city with barracks+GL producing triple-elite armies (inf+blitz with seed tweaking) which is enough to take the other caps.

I have seen many times that it is easier to get an early BC dom.vic on deity GOTW than on king for example, because king does not have the GL and the IW, so the AI goes straight to build an archer army, while on deity it will build 1-2 archer then start building legions (unless threatened), so it is easer to take them down even later.

[Grayson]

I don't know, maybe it's easier for you guys, but I have a higher succes rate getting BC wins on normal Deity and King GOTW than I do my first time going through GOTW Deity.

The AI is still the AI, making dumb mistakes.

Yes, you can use the GL and IW against them, but you've still gotta take down 3 other caps w/ GLs and archers, and the longer you take, the harder it is. Then, you've gotta time the archer army walkout, which usually takes several playthroughs. Once you do learn the patterns, it's faster to figure out ways to defeat the GOTW AI in the BC.

But I still remember when the new GOTW style debuted. I had the top score on PS3 w/ an AD win one of those first weeks. I'm sure on xbox there were BC victories, but it was decidely harder for people to figure out on the fly than the Deity maps, which were consistently getting beat in less than 20 turns. The Deity scores weren't that much different than the Cheiftan and Warlord scores before the switch.

I don't respect the normal Deity AI vs. 3-4 horseman armies, because I used Russian horsearmies in 3-4 games in a row, and easily had the BC win each time. That won't work on GOTW.

Once you learn the map, and the moves, maybe you have more powerful armies against the Deity AI due to getting elite units and techs from the AI, but I disagree that a 40% handicap is anyway harder than the AI starting with a GL, barracks, BW and IW w/o the handicap.

[elthrasher]

You could be right. I don't really play a lot of GotW. I usually just do 1-2 playthroughs per week. Sometimes I skip it entirely.

It's just my instinct to see anything given to the AI as something I should be able to take for myself and therefore an advantage for me.

[Pedal2Metal]

To post BC GOTW week scores is 1 of the following 2 approaches is usually used although I have seen/used cats once or twice:
1. Fast horserush (by far the most common, 80%+)
2. Get IW from walk-in, use legions

In addition to the 4 starting boni GOTW Diety receives (GL, Barracks, IW, BW), the AI is more aggressive. It will usually have settlers going by 2400 BC so if you dilly-dally around, you're likely to get out-expanded. However, they don't get the 40% handicap, they get no production handicap so sitting on their trees can really slow them down.

I think GOTW is harder if you don't get to a cap before an archer army is built. The exception is to wait for the AI to do the stupid archer army walk-out escort of a settler & then take the city. I hate this tactic but it does work if you get your horse army positioned in the 2500 BC - 2000 BC timeframe.

If you do take an early cap, GOTW Diety can be easier due to GL + Barracks. Generally-speaking you can get pre-2000 BC (<= 20 turns) in Diety GOTW if the map is right & w/right civ pretty easily often on your first/second playthrough. A pre-2500 BC score usually requires more than 2 playthroughs. 2900 BC almost broke my spirit! :) With this week's GOTW, no way we'll see pre-2000 BC for Diety.

Overall, I think GOTW Diety is harder than normal Diety but once you play it enough, it gets pretty old hat either way.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zso_Zso]

P2M, you are right on the money in all aspects, including that GOTW deity is harder than normal deity. My point is, that GOTW king is even harder than GOTW deity for fast dom victory. Just try it and see a few times. The AI is more agressive on deity, which means they start pushing legions out. On king they do not have IW, so they just build the archer army fast. And even if you get 1cap before the archer army is ready, you do not have a GL in there, so it does not make taking the rest any easier and you can be sure those will have archer armies by the time you get there. I have consistently been able to get earlier dom vic on GOTW deity than GOTW king. There are some exceptions of course, depending on map and civs, but on average, on deity I can get earlier dominations.

[Grayson]

On King GOTW, they get BW+IW+Barracks, right?

It's still not as difficult for me to take down 18 defense archers vs. 30 defense archers. I don't wait for the walk-outs on Deity GOTW, so maybe that's why GOTW Deity seems easier for some, because you can often count on that walk-out at predictable times.

It's pretty tough to get to every AI on Deity before they get their army, so you're still having to face at least 1-3 civs w/ 30 defense.

On King GOTW, it's really not any harder than overwhelming someone online that has archers already, because they still play worse than humans, they just have a little boost in defense. But 30 defense is something else, and requires more thought, units, and maybe luck in finding a BC win on your first or second playthrough.

On King GOTW, it's still not difficult to use several horsemen to take down the remaining civs. Plus, once you do get a cap, you still have the barracks. So, you're getting vet units to take down vet defenses. If anything, it should be equal to taking down elite defenses with elite units from the taken cap+GL.

I understand your reasoning, I just don't agree.

[Zso_Zso]

They do not get IW on king, only BW+barracks. That's why they keep building archers. I have been up against multiple archer armies in king, never in deity. On deity you can often get 2 caps before the armies are up, sometimes even a 3rd (although that is rare). Then you can time the last one for the walk-out.

I know it is counter-intuitive, but that's just my experience.

[Grayson]

yeah, I wasn't sure about Iron Working. Also, I'm probably not as experienced as you are at waiting for the walk-outs. I typically don't find that fun, unless it's like my 10th play through and I want to try to post a top score. I try to win the Deity GOTW pretty much straight up, if you count attempting walk-ins straight up :D

I do agree that the GLs+Iron Working help. But vet units are just as effective in King IMO.

Maybe it's just people attempting the lower levels first in GOTW, but it's pretty typcial to see a 20 turn win submited on GOTW King within the first day or two, while it often takes a few more days to find the same on Deity. I've never really played Emperor level, but I don't think they get the GLs either, do they get IW??

I just typically try out Deity a few times, and try to find new ways to overwhelm the enemy, each time trying to get more and more armies in the same amount of time. Of course, this means I won't be at the top of the leaderboards, because again, I'm not really looking or waiting for the walkouts.

[Grayson]

But I guess to get this more on topic and away from strictly GOTW, it was difficult for me when I was first starting out on Deity to win an early domination win.

In fact, I rarely won before tanks. I think the game naturally give players the tendancy to turtle and play a little to passively. This happens for lots of reasons, I believe.

- Once people see how effective tanks are, how quick they are to end games once they are aquired, people will just do whatever they can to get to tanks fast and win that way. Often times people will post here their "strategy" w/ the Leonardo's Workshop where they build a lot of units early, then promote them to tanks. This isn't really a strategy, or at least not a good one, as Leo's Workshop is more of a tactical device and not something to plan for. But in general, lots of SP guys just wait for tanks, and that often happens in MP as well, which is a mistake to wait for every game. Yes, if you are always in the tech lead and have sound defenses, this can work, but it takes too long to get to tanks, allowing more time for something to go wrong.

- When people jump to Deity, their biggest complaints are always that the AI gangs up on them, and threatens war all the time. Up until Deity, players aren't really pressed, so it's a tough transition. People learn how to win against the lower levels, and the lower AI declares war a lot less often and won't follow through with threats if they are way behind in tech. Actually being threatened makes a lot of players into even more of a turtle. They just try to shore up defenses and try to tech up. If they expand, they usually won't have any problem, but again, I think the game influences players to be more passive and they'll just wait for tanks instead of stepping out into the unknown and taking a gamble on attacking before tanks.

- It's tough to teach yourself, without the aid of others, how to rush well in the early phases of the game. The AI doesn't horserush, and often you won't see this tactic or know about it till you play online. The AI is so inept at rushing in general, that the game by its nature teaches you very little about rushing well.

- Players may be successful in rushing on the lower levels, because it takes the AI forever to defend on King diffculty and lower, so bad attacks can often win. Deity will get archers a little faster, mainly because their 40% handicap. Players trying to rush the AI and realize that they are facing archer armies will likely not enjoy the resistance the AI is now putting up, and deem it too risky to try to put everything into an early rush.

Yes, it is a little harder to rush the AI on Deity than the lower levels, but it's not something that is difficult to learn if you have the skills to beat Deity in the first place. You may fail the first few times, but once you learn some patterns, it's not really that hard. Early warrior rushes, horsemen, and legions are all effective in the BC, as are catapults. Sometimes things work out right to expand and tech really fast and get more advanced units. You can finish the game off in the BC with tanks against Deity, though it may take some luck and prior knowledge of the layout of the map, but it's not unheard of.

I guess the purpose of this post is to say, I think the game naturally makes players too passive, and it did for me, and it took a little bit to go ahead and take the risk and learn how to rush. Once I did learn how to do this, it made me a better player, but I admit that I really wasn't that good at it till I played on MP for a little bit and learned more aggressive techiques.